Because May kept putting off the crunch vote where the Cabinet had to decide what direction to go in.
And they let her do it. As we've just heard, Davis was apparently sidelined from day one. Indeed, it was a running joke on here about how many times it was leaked that he was thinking of resigning. In his letter he detailed longstanding concerns.
It might have helped if he'd spent more than four hours in actual negotiations with the EU, what with him being Her Majesty's Principal Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union and all. What the actual F was he doing all that time he was Brexit Secretary?
Why bother when the PM was telling EU negotiators to listen to remainer Robbins? Davis is a dick and he should have either reigned the minute he was undercut or not taken the job under those conditions, it doesn't change the fact that the remainer PM has put a completely unaccountable remainer civil servant in charge and he's complete fucked it up.
It will be interesting to find out when the archives are opened and the histories written whether May put Robbins in charge to undermine Davis or because he turned out to be useless. We may suppose one way or the other according to our Brexit persuasions, but we probably won't really know the truth for years.
Because May kept putting off the crunch vote where the Cabinet had to decide what direction to go in.
And they let her do it. As we've just heard, Davis was apparently sidelined from day one. Indeed, it was a running joke on here about how many times it was leaked that he was thinking of resigning. In his letter he detailed longstanding concerns.
It might have helped if he'd spent more than four hours in actual negotiations with the EU, what with him being Her Majesty's Principal Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union and all. What the actual F was he doing all that time he was Brexit Secretary?
Why bother when the PM was telling EU negotiators to listen to remainer Robbins? Davis is a dick and he should have either reigned the minute he was undercut or not taken the job under those conditions, it doesn't change the fact that the remainer PM has put a completely unaccountable remainer civil servant in charge and he's complete fucked it up.
Davis is a dick, Boris is a joke, Gove has allowed himself to be sidelined, Fox is just the PM's drinking buddy... Where are the worthwhile Leave leaders who should be delivering the sunlit uplands?
1. Cameron legislated for the vote and the vast majority of MPs backed the legislation, even though neither he nor most of them thought leaving the EU was a good idea. The original sin is actually that of the Remainer-in-Chief himself, Cameron, who put what he perceived to be the good of the Tory Party above the good of the country when he put the referendum pledge into his election manifesto - and much good it did him. 2. The Remainers then somehow contrived to lose the referendum, despite having the backing of the Government, most Conservatives, virtually the whole of the remainder of the political establishment of the United Kingdom save for the DUP and Ukip, sundry European figures (and Barack Obama) in guest roles, and the bulk of influential people in virtually every other field of endeavour in Britain that you can name. Not least because their campaign was so dismal and funereal and bloody awful, and basically not a patch on what Boris Johnson and half-a-dozen of his mates could scribble on the back of an old envelope in about 20 minutes. 3. Having thus enabled and facilitated the victory of the Leavers - which would never have happened if the Remainers hadn't made it so - a cabinet was formed to deal with the process that was full of people from both sides of the argument, and led by a Remainer. It is she who has been attempting to deal with the fallout from Cameron's terminally incompetent, career-ending political miscalculation. 4. Oh, and regarding red buses, warnings of the collapse of Western civilization, etc: Leave lied. So did Remain. Everyone bloody lied through their teeth.
The fingerprints of Remain and Leave backers are all over this entire process from beginning to end. They brought forward the referendum and they've been trying desperately to agree a direction after it. You could say that they're all in this together.
Given these circumstances it seems more than a little futile to go round and round in endless circles arguing about whose fault all of this is. Joint liability is shared by everyone involved.*
*except the SNP
Plus it was Blair who refused to implement transition controls as most EU nations did when the new accession countries joined the EU in 2004
So we should have had Leavers in charge. Then what? Make more No Deal preparations. So we build border posts and tarmac Dover. But wait! When May started preparing for No Deal, Leavers whined that it was fearmongering. So, we should have spent billions on No Deal preparations - but kept them TOP SECRET to avoid panic Except from all the EU27 who would surely be most intimidated and give us EVERYTHING we asked for. Huzzah! Land of hope and gloooooory.....
So we should have had Leavers in charge. Then what? Make more No Deal preparations. So we build border posts and tarmac Dover. But wait! When May started preparing for No Deal, Leavers whined that it was fearmongering. So, we should have spent billions on No Deal preparations - but kept them TOP SECRET to avoid panic Except from all the EU27 who would surely be most intimidated and give us EVERYTHING we asked for. Huzzah! Land of hope and gloooooory.....
London really does have the best restaurants in the world. I've been to all of the major global cities and there really isn't anywhere else that can compete with London. It's the greatest city in the world.
Which do you particularly recommend?
Just Hawksmoor on Air Street. It's just steak, but reliably great. Having lived in other parts of the world I've come to appreciate reliable quality. I'm looking forward to Elizabeth Allen's new restaurant Shibui, Pidgin was amazing and her pop up was also great. @Benpointer also.
Because May kept putting off the crunch vote where the Cabinet had to decide what direction to go in.
And they let her do it. As we've just heard, Davis was apparently sidelined from day one. Indeed, it was a running joke on here about how many times it was leaked that he was thinking of resigning. In his letter he detailed longstanding concerns.
It might have helped if he'd spent more than four hours in actual negotiations with the EU, what with him being Her Majesty's Principal Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union and all. What the actual F was he doing all that time he was Brexit Secretary?
Why bother when the PM was telling EU negotiators to listen to remainer Robbins? Davis is a dick and he should have either reigned the minute he was undercut or not taken the job under those conditions, it doesn't change the fact that the remainer PM has put a completely unaccountable remainer civil servant in charge and he's complete fucked it up.
Davis is a dick, Boris is a joke, Gove has allowed himself to be sidelined, Fox is just the PM's drinking buddy... Where are the worthwhile Leave leaders who should be delivering the sunlit uplands?
Gove allowed himself to be sidelined? To be fair to him he sacrificed his own career to prevent Boris from running. He did the nation a favour and yet May saw fit to get rid of him because of a previous feud where Gove forced the Home Office to police extremists in the education sector against May's wishes. Further, the issue is in the civil service, we should have purged all you remainers from day one, no chance of someone like remainer Robbins undermining the national interest to keep us in the EU at any cost.
Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.
Brexiteers need to be sterilised.
Remainers have humiliated this nation. She's begging because her strategy has been awful.
Oh the irony! The current dismal state of the nation is the fault of Remainers - wow!
You don't staff the abattoir with vegetarians and expect to have steak for dinner.
Was that unicorn steak you were after?
I'd take any kind of steak. We're being served some kind of quinoa and tofu crap and being told it's fillet mignon, anyone who points out it's some awful quinoa and tofu concoction is summarily executed by remainer Robbins.
Who else is there to blame for the abject state of the negotiations than the remainers in government?
I'd start with the Leave campaign, and before that UKIP and the BOOers, who - despite having an entire three years formal notice of the referendum, and decades before that of aspiration - failed to even begin to start thinking about what they actually wanted Leave to look like. This was a point I and other probed incessantly before the referendum. Answer came there none; just self-contradictory assurances that it would all be all right in the end.
Next on the list are DD, Boris, and Liam Fox, put into government explicitly by Theresa May, as proud Leavers, in the three key posts which would have allowed them - had they had the faintest idea of what they were trying to achieve - to take us to those sunny uplands.
Eventually, after two out of the three self-imploded, the grown-ups have to step in, to try to come up with something. It's far too bit late, of course - this should all have been discussed, and agreed, by the Leave side well before the referendum. But better late than never.
Theresa May, for all her many faults, has tried as hard as any human being could to make sense of this mess, and has probably got it as right as it is possible to get it, in terms of what she is aiming for. Sadly, a combination of parliamentary arithmetic following her GE2017 catastrophe, and the intransigence of the 'won't take Yes for an answer' brigade, may well mean that no sense can be made of it.
Because May kept putting off the crunch vote where the Cabinet had to decide what direction to go in.
And they let her do it. As we've just heard, Davis was apparently sidelined from day one. Indeed, it was a running joke on here about how many times it was leaked that he was thinking of resigning. In his letter he detailed longstanding concerns.
It might have helped if he'd spent more than four hours in actual negotiations with the EU, what with him being Her Majesty's Principal Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union and all. What the actual F was he doing all that time he was Brexit Secretary?
Why bother when the PM was telling EU negotiators to listen to remainer Robbins? Davis is a dick and he should have either reigned the minute he was undercut or not taken the job under those conditions, it doesn't change the fact that the remainer PM has put a completely unaccountable remainer civil servant in charge and he's complete fucked it up.
We could have had such a lovely Brexit if only David Davis had been left in charge of it.
Because May kept putting off the crunch vote where the Cabinet had to decide what direction to go in.
And they let her do it. As we've just heard, Davis was apparently sidelined from day one. Indeed, it was a running joke on here about how many times it was leaked that he was thinking of resigning. In his letter he detailed longstanding concerns.
It might have helped if he'd spent more than four hours in actual negotiations with the EU, what with him being Her Majesty's Principal Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union and all. What the actual F was he doing all that time he was Brexit Secretary?
Why bother when the PM was telling EU negotiators to listen to remainer Robbins? Davis is a dick and he should have either reigned the minute he was undercut or not taken the job under those conditions, it doesn't change the fact that the remainer PM has put a completely unaccountable remainer civil servant in charge and he's complete fucked it up.
Davis is a dick, Boris is a joke, Gove has allowed himself to be sidelined, Fox is just the PM's drinking buddy... Where are the worthwhile Leave leaders who should be delivering the sunlit uplands?
Gove allowed himself to be sidelined? To be fair to him he sacrificed his own career to prevent Boris from running. He did the nation a favour and yet May saw fit to get rid of him because of a previous feud where Gove forced the Home Office to police extremists in the education sector against May's wishes. Further, the issue is in the civil service, we should have purged all you remainers from day one, no chance of someone like remainer Robbins undermining the national interest to keep us in the EU at any cost.
Now I see your true colours: "we should have purged all you remainers"
So, would that be a check on how civil servants voted (?), or maybe they'd have to sign an affadavit that they voted Leave, with the refusniks sacked?
Because May kept putting off the crunch vote where the Cabinet had to decide what direction to go in.
And they let her do it. As we've just heard, Davis was apparently sidelined from day one. Indeed, it was a running joke on here about how many times it was leaked that he was thinking of resigning. In his letter he detailed longstanding concerns.
It might have helped if he'd spent more than four hours in actual negotiations with the EU, what with him being Her Majesty's Principal Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union and all. What the actual F was he doing all that time he was Brexit Secretary?
Why bother when the PM was telling EU negotiators to listen to remainer Robbins? Davis is a dick and he should have either reigned the minute he was undercut or not taken the job under those conditions, it doesn't change the fact that the remainer PM has put a completely unaccountable remainer civil servant in charge and he's complete fucked it up.
Davis is a dick, Boris is a joke, Gove has allowed himself to be sidelined, Fox is just the PM's drinking buddy... Where are the worthwhile Leave leaders who should be delivering the sunlit uplands?
Gove allowed himself to be sidelined? To be fair to him he sacrificed his own career to prevent Boris from running. He did the nation a favour and yet May saw fit to get rid of him because of a previous feud where Gove forced the Home Office to police extremists in the education sector against May's wishes. Further, the issue is in the civil service, we should have purged all you remainers from day one, no chance of someone like remainer Robbins undermining the national interest to keep us in the EU at any cost.
Purged? Is that really the way in which a modern advanced democracy should work? With the majority purging it's opponents? That is a very dangerous road.
Who else is there to blame for the abject state of the negotiations than the remainers in government?
I'd start with the Leave campaign, and before that UKIP and the BOOers, who - despite having an entire three years formal notice of the referendum, and decades before that of aspiration - failed to even begin to start thinking about what they actually wanted Leave to look like. This was a point I and other probed incessantly before the referendum. Answer came there none; just self-contradictory assurances that it would all be all right in the end.
Next on the list are DD, Boris, and Liam Fox, put into government explicitly by Theresa May, as proud Leavers, in the three key posts which would have allowed them - had they had the faintest idea of what they were trying to achieve - to take us to those sunny uplands.
Eventually, after two out of the three self-imploded, the grown-ups have to step in, to try to come up with something. It's far too bit late, of course - this should all have been discussed, and agreed, by the Leave side well before the referendum. But better late than never.
Theresa May, for all her many faults, has tried as hard as any human being could to make sense of this mess, and has probably got it as right as it is possible to get it, in terms of what she is aiming for. Sadly, a combination of parliamentary arithmetic following her GE2017 catastrophe, and the intransigence of the 'won't take Yes for an answer' brigade, may well mean that no sense can be made of it.
A near perfect analysis.
Before the referendum Leavers insisted that Vote Leave were not putting forward a manifesto and that it was up to the government to make a Brexit plan. OK. Then all of a sudden afterwards it was all "Well clearly we have to leave the Single Market, it's the will of they people". The NHS spending idea was not so quietly dropped, apparently that wasn't the will of the people. Now we have the spectacle of Leavers arguing for no deal (in a complete volte face from the referendum campaign), or blaming the Tory PM elected mostly by Leavers for the outcome of Brexit.
Who else is there to blame for the abject state of the negotiations than the remainers in government?
I'd start with the Leave campaign, and before that UKIP and the BOOers, who - despite having an entire three years formal notice of the referendum, and decades before that of aspiration - failed to even begin to start thinking about what they actually wanted Leave to look like. This was a point I and other probed incessantly before the referendum. Answer came there none; just self-contradictory assurances that it would all be all right in the end.
Next on the list are DD, Boris, and Liam Fox, put into government explicitly by Theresa May, as proud Leavers, in the three key posts which would have allowed them - had they had the faintest idea of what they were trying to achieve - to take us to those sunny uplands.
Eventually, after two out of the three self-imploded, the grown-ups have to step in, to try to come up with something. It's far too bit late, of course - this should all have been discussed, and agreed, by the Leave side well before the referendum. But better late than never.
Theresa May, for all her many faults, has tried as hard as any human being could to make sense of this mess, and has probably got it as right as it is possible to get it, in terms of what she is aiming for. Sadly, a combination of parliamentary arithmetic following her GE2017 catastrophe, and the intransigence of the 'won't take Yes for an answer' brigade, may well mean that no sense can be made of it.
So we should have had Leavers in charge. Then what? Make more No Deal preparations. So we build border posts and tarmac Dover. But wait! When May started preparing for No Deal, Leavers whined that it was fearmongering. So, we should have spent billions on No Deal preparations - but kept them TOP SECRET to avoid panic Except from all the EU27 who would surely be most intimidated and give us EVERYTHING we asked for. Huzzah! Land of hope and gloooooory.....
Brexit is a Baldrick style cunning plan isn't it?
Private Baldrick: I have a Brexit plan, sir.
Captain Blackadder: Really, Baldrick? A cunning and subtle one?
Private Baldrick: Yes, sir.
Captain Blackadder: As cunning as a Dr Foxy who's just been appointed Professor of EU Negotiations at Cambridge University?
Private Baldrick: Yes, sir.
Captain Blackadder: Well, I'm afraid it'll have to wait. Whatever it was, I'm sure it was better than my plan to get out of Brexit by pretending to be mad. I mean, who would have noticed another mad PBer round here?
Captain Blackadder: [whistle blows] Good luck, everyone.
Because May kept putting off the crunch vote where the Cabinet had to decide what direction to go in.
And they let her do it. As we've just heard, Davis was apparently sidelined from day one. Indeed, it was a running joke on here about how many times it was leaked that he was thinking of resigning. In his letter he detailed longstanding concerns.
It might have helped if he'd spent more than four hours in actual negotiations with the EU, what with him being Her Majesty's Principal Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union and all. What the actual F was he doing all that time he was Brexit Secretary?
Why bother when the PM was telling EU negotiators to listen to remainer Robbins? Davis is a dick and he should have either reigned the minute he was undercut or not taken the job under those conditions, it doesn't change the fact that the remainer PM has put a completely unaccountable remainer civil servant in charge and he's complete fucked it up.
Davis is a dick, Boris is a joke, Gove has allowed himself to be sidelined, Fox is just the PM's drinking buddy... Where are the worthwhile Leave leaders who should be delivering the sunlit uplands?
Gove allowed himself to be sidelined? To be fair to him he sacrificed his own career to prevent Boris from running. He did the nation a favour and yet May saw fit to get rid of him because of a previous feud where Gove forced the Home Office to police extremists in the education sector against May's wishes. Further, the issue is in the civil service, we should have purged all you remainers from day one, no chance of someone like remainer Robbins undermining the national interest to keep us in the EU at any cost.
Now I see your true colours: "we should have purged all you remainers"
So, would that be a check on how civil servants voted (?), or maybe they'd have to sign an affadavit that they voted Leave, with the refusniks sacked?
Strange how the competent people all seem to be Remainers isn't it What a coincidence.
Jeez just have a read of your post. "Remainers control all the major arms of the government." ...except for the three areas most closely associated with Brexit. But those Leavers don't really count because they were not much cop.
One day you will have to admit (if only to yourself) that Brexit was a huge fecking mistake from start to finish.
Yet the PM overruled the one that matters and put remainer Robbins in charge. Now she's made it official at least.
We may disagree in brexit, however, it's fair to say that remainers are in charge of the government. You control the four major power centres, you've sidelined the leavers that matter and presented a deal that no one really wants, not remainers, not the EU and definitely not leavers. Remainers are altogether useless, the big shame is that the leavers in our party have less spine than the remainers have use.
The saddest thing is that this has all been so predictable - project Leave's promise evaporating at the first contact with reality; Leavers then thrashing around for ways to blame anyone but themselves.
Who else is there to blame for the abject state of the negotiations than the remainers in government? Your lot are in charge and they have fucked it up from day one. May, Hammond, Rudd and Robbins are all remainers, they all want to keep us in the EU at any cost and are happy to whatever it takes to make it happen. They would all sell their own grandmothers to the EU to keep us in if that's what Barnier demanded.
1) Fox, Davis and Johnson are in the key positions of influence over Brexit until a month ago. 2) Now 2/3 are gone in a hissy fit. 3) The lack of progress over the last 2 years is solely the fault of the remainers who replaced them.
Because May kept putting off the crunch vote where the Cabinet had to decide what direction to go in.
And they let her do it. As we've just heard, Davis was apparently sidelined from day one. Indeed, it was a running joke on here about how many times it was leaked that he was thinking of resigning. In his letter he detailed longstanding concerns.
It might have helped if he'd spent more than four hours in actual negotiations with the EU, what with him being Her Majesty's Principal Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union and all. What the actual F was he doing all that time he was Brexit Secretary?
Why bother when the PM was telling EU negotiators to listen to remainer Robbins? Davis is a dick and he should have either reigned the minute he was undercut or not taken the job under those conditions, it doesn't change the fact that the remainer PM has put a completely unaccountable remainer civil servant in charge and he's complete fucked it up.
Davis is a dick, Boris is a joke, Gove has allowed himself to be sidelined, Fox is just the PM's drinking buddy... Where are the worthwhile Leave leaders who should be delivering the sunlit uplands?
Gove allowed himself to be sidelined? To be fair to him he sacrificed his own career to prevent Boris from running. He did the nation a favour and yet May saw fit to get rid of him because of a previous feud where Gove forced the Home Office to police extremists in the education sector against May's wishes. Further, the issue is in the civil service, we should have purged all you remainers from day one, no chance of someone like remainer Robbins undermining the national interest to keep us in the EU at any cost.
Now I see your true colours: "we should have purged all you remainers"
So, would that be a check on how civil servants voted (?), or maybe they'd have to sign an affadavit that they voted Leave, with the refusniks sacked?
Yes. Pledge your allegiance to the UK, if you can't do that because you hold the EU in higher regard then you shouldn't be anywhere near the government. While I'm not a huge fan of Trump, his America First platform should be the model for brexit. UK first, fuck the EU.
They can both be true. It sounds as if the Times story is from when Corbyn got elected initially, but the other tweet was from last year during the election campaign.
Because May kept putting off the crunch vote where the Cabinet had to decide what direction to go in.
And they let her do it. As we've just heard, Davis was apparently sidelined from day one. Indeed, it was a running joke on here about how many times it was leaked that he was thinking of resigning. In his letter he detailed longstanding concerns.
It might have helped if he'd spent more than four hours in actual negotiations with the EU, what with him being Her Majesty's Principal Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union and all. What the actual F was he doing all that time he was Brexit Secretary?
Why bother when the PM was telling EU negotiators to listen to remainer Robbins? Davis is a dick and he should have either reigned the minute he was undercut or not taken the job under those conditions, it doesn't change the fact that the remainer PM has put a completely unaccountable remainer civil servant in charge and he's complete fucked it up.
Davis is a dick, Boris is a joke, Gove has allowed himself to be sidelined, Fox is just the PM's drinking buddy... Where are the worthwhile Leave leaders who should be delivering the sunlit uplands?
Gove allowed himself to be sidelined? To be fair to him he sacrificed his own career to prevent Boris from running. He did the nation a favour and yet May saw fit to get rid of him because of a previous feud where Gove forced the Home Office to police extremists in the education sector against May's wishes. Further, the issue is in the civil service, we should have purged all you remainers from day one, no chance of someone like remainer Robbins undermining the national interest to keep us in the EU at any cost.
Purged? Is that really the way in which a modern advanced democracy should work? With the majority purging it's opponents? That is a very dangerous road.
17.4m people voted to leave the EU. The civil service is chock full of people opposed to that result. Something has to give. Tbh, I've said this before a lot, the remainers needed to be purged from day one of they weren't able to sign up to the new agenda, as instructed by the ultimate decision makers, the British public
Jeez just have a read of your post. "Remainers control all the major arms of the government." ...except for the three areas most closely associated with Brexit. But those Leavers don't really count because they were not much cop.
One day you will have to admit (if only to yourself) that Brexit was a huge fecking mistake from start to finish.
Yet the PM overruled the one that matters and put remainer Robbins in charge. Now she's made it official at least.
We may disagree in brexit, however, it's fair to say that remainers are in charge of the government. You control the four major power centres, you've sidelined the leavers that matter and presented a deal that no one really wants, not remainers, not the EU and definitely not leavers. Remainers are altogether useless, the big shame is that the leavers in our party have less spine than the remainers have use.
The saddest thing is that this has all been so predictable - project Leave's promise evaporating at the first contact with reality; Leavers then thrashing around for ways to blame anyone but themselves.
Who else is there to blame for the abject state of the negotiations than the remainers in government? Your lot are in charge and they have fucked it up from day one. May, Hammond, Rudd and Robbins are all remainers, they all want to keep us in the EU at any cost and are happy to whatever it takes to make it happen. They would all sell their own grandmothers to the EU to keep us in if that's what Barnier demanded.
1) Fox, Davis and Johnson are in the key positions of influence over Brexit until a month ago. 2) Now 2/3 are gone in a hissy fit. 3) The lack of progress over the last 2 years is solely the fault of the remainers who replaced them.
Yep. That makes sense.
Remainer Robbins has been in charge of the brexit negotiations from day one. He and his master have failed. Everything else is irrelevant. Even that idiot Fox.
Who else is there to blame for the abject state of the negotiations than the remainers in government?
I'd start with the Leave campaign, and before that UKIP and the BOOers, who - despite having an entire three years formal notice of the referendum, and decades before that of aspiration - failed to even begin to start thinking about what they actually wanted Leave to look like. This was a point I and other probed incessantly before the referendum. Answer came there none; just self-contradictory assurances that it would all be all right in the end.
Next on the list are DD, Boris, and Liam Fox, put into government explicitly by Theresa May, as proud Leavers, in the three key posts which would have allowed them - had they had the faintest idea of what they were trying to achieve - to take us to those sunny uplands.
Eventually, after two out of the three self-imploded, the grown-ups have to step in, to try to come up with something. It's far too bit late, of course - this should all have been discussed, and agreed, by the Leave side well before the referendum. But better late than never.
Theresa May, for all her many faults, has tried as hard as any human being could to make sense of this mess, and has probably got it as right as it is possible to get it, in terms of what she is aiming for. Sadly, a combination of parliamentary arithmetic following her GE2017 catastrophe, and the intransigence of the 'won't take Yes for an answer' brigade, may well mean that no sense can be made of it.
A very intelligent post Nabavi...I know I've had a dig at you for being pompous, stating the bleeding obvious, but at least you are not pompous and thick, like Corbyn....
Here's an interesting question: would it have been practically possible to set up something like the NHS if Britain hadn't been the mostly homogeneous society that it was in 1948?
May will survive the autumn and until a withdrawal agreement and transition period is done.
The danger period for her will likely be after poor post Brexit local elections in May when we have likely only gone to BINO and before the transition period is due to end in December 2020 if as is likely there is no FTA agreed by then
But you told us all there would be an FTA!?
YOU TOLD US ALL! THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF TIMES!!
It's literally still on the Vote Leave website.
No Deal is not The Will Of The People.
So it is: "WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO TRADE AND JOBS WHEN WE VOTE LEAVE?
We will negotiate a new UK-EU deal based on free trade and friendly cooperation. We will carry on trading with Europe but we will also be able to negotiate trade agreements with other countries. This will help our economy grow and create more jobs.
Some claim we will not get a trade deal but there is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it. The idea that Britain will be the only country in Europe not to be part of this zone is silly. "
Sounds like a great idea. Unfortunately the Remainer PM and the Remainer civil service have refused to try and negotiate an FTA with the EU, and instead have focussed on trying to replicate single market membership. Which is exactly what both DD and Boris said when they resigned. Don’t know why this is hard to understand.
17.4m people voted to leave the EU. The civil service is chock full of people opposed to that result. Something has to give. Tbh, I've said this before a lot, the remainers needed to be purged from day one of they weren't able to sign up to the new agenda, as instructed by the ultimate decision makers, the British public
The British public - or at least 17.4m of them - instructed the government to ensure we'd be part of a Free Trade Area from Turkey to Ireland, to ensure there was frictionless trade, and to get us out of the CFP, CAP, and Freedom of Movement obligations.
All of which the government is trying to do. They might not succeed, of course, given the parliamentary arithmetic.
A very intelligent post Nabavi...I know I've had a dig at you for being pompous, stating the bleeding obvious, but at least you are not pompous and thick, like Corbyn....
Who else is there to blame for the abject state of the negotiations than the remainers in government?
Theresa May, for all her many faults, has tried as hard as any human being could to make sense of this mess, and has probably got it as right as it is possible to get it, in terms of what she is aiming for. Sadly, a combination of parliamentary arithmetic following her GE2017 catastrophe, and the intransigence of the 'won't take Yes for an answer' brigade, may well mean that no sense can be made of it.
Because May kept putting off the crunch vote where the Cabinet had to decide what direction to go in.
And they let her do it. As we've just heard, Davis was apparently sidelined from day one. Indeed, it was a running joke on here about how many times it was leaked that he was thinking of resigning. In his letter he detailed longstanding concerns.
It might have helped if he'd spent more than four hours in actual negotiations with the EU, what with him being Her Majesty's Principal Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union and all. What the actual F was he doing all that time he was Brexit Secretary?
Why bother when the PM was telling EU negotiators to listen to remainer Robbins? Davis is a dick and he should have either reigned the minute he was undercut or not taken the job under those conditions, it doesn't change the fact that the remainer PM has put a completely unaccountable remainer civil servant in charge and he's complete fucked it up.
Davis is a dick, Boris is a joke, Gove has allowed himself to be sidelined, Fox is just the PM's drinking buddy... Where are the worthwhile Leave leaders who should be delivering the sunlit uplands?
Gove allowed himself to be sidelined? To be fair to him he sacrificed his own career to prevent Boris from running. He did the nation a favour and yet May saw fit to get rid of him because of a previous feud where Gove forced the Home Office to police extremists in the education sector against May's wishes. Further, the issue is in the civil service, we should have purged all you remainers from day one, no chance of someone like remainer Robbins undermining the national interest to keep us in the EU at any cost.
Now I see your true colours: "we should have purged all you remainers"
So, would that be a check on how civil servants voted (?), or maybe they'd have to sign an affadavit that they voted Leave, with the refusniks sacked?
Strange how the competent people all seem to be Remainers isn't it What a coincidence.
Indeed. In fact the leavers have played their hand so badly that their dream has become a nightmare and is on the verge of self-destructing in a most spectacular fashion. The UK will either crash out of the EU with major economic dislocation or it will become a rule-taker, effectively a vassal state of the hated Brussels bureaucracy,
17.4m people voted to leave the EU. The civil service is chock full of people opposed to that result. Something has to give. Tbh, I've said this before a lot, the remainers needed to be purged from day one of they weren't able to sign up to the new agenda, as instructed by the ultimate decision makers, the British public
The British public - or at least 17.4m of them - instructed the government to ensure we'd be part of a Free Trade Area from Turkey to Ireland, to ensure there was frictionless trade, and to get us out of the CFP, CAP, and Freedom of Movement obligations.
All of which the government is trying to do. They might not succeed, of course, given the parliamentary arithmetic.
I'm much kinder. Albeit, I'm drunk, which is very rare, all I wanted May to do was ensure we're no longer part of the treaty structures driving ever closer union. If she accomplishes that, she's my best mate, no, reaLLy I love her, she's the best. Faile me not Theresa, light if my darkness, etc.
Right - past my bedtime. I'll leave Max and Archer to console themselves over how all the ills of Brexits are the fault of Remainers. Irony is not dead.
Here's an interesting question: would it have been practically possible to set up something like the NHS if Britain hadn't been the mostly homogeneous society that it was in 1948?
A mostly homogeneous society plus the aftermath of the world wars plus decades of growing equality all helped facilitate the creation of the welfare state.
They can both be true. It sounds as if the Times story is from when Corbyn got elected initially, but the other tweet was from last year during the election campaign.
They can indeed, but if you wanted to trick people like Anorak you would produce only some of the information and in a certain way. Look at the dates, his most recent preference is for the Conservatives over Labour yet the paper claims he backs Corbyn's Labour.
They can both be true. It sounds as if the Times story is from when Corbyn got elected initially, but the other tweet was from last year during the election campaign.
They can indeed, but if you wanted to trick people like Anorak you would produce only some of the information and in a certain way. Look at the dates, his most recent preference is for the Conservatives over Labour yet the paper claims he backs Corbyn's Labour.
It isn't lying but it is deceiving and it works.
Aren't you deceiving when you say his most recent preference is for the Conservatives? Did you not read the end of the tweet? It's also not deceiving to say he supported something in the past.
17.4m people voted to leave the EU. The civil service is chock full of people opposed to that result. Something has to give. Tbh, I've said this before a lot, the remainers needed to be purged from day one of they weren't able to sign up to the new agenda, as instructed by the ultimate decision makers, the British public
The British public - or at least 17.4m of them - instructed the government to ensure we'd be part of a Free Trade Area from Turkey to Ireland, to ensure there was frictionless trade, and to get us out of the CFP, CAP, and Freedom of Movement obligations.
All of which the government is trying to do. They might not succeed, of course, given the parliamentary arithmetic.
I think you're virtually the only one on here tonight making valuable contributions, and I include myself.
17.4m people voted to leave the EU. The civil service is chock full of people opposed to that result. Something has to give. Tbh, I've said this before a lot, the remainers needed to be purged from day one of they weren't able to sign up to the new agenda, as instructed by the ultimate decision makers, the British public
The British public - or at least 17.4m of them - instructed the government to ensure we'd be part of a Free Trade Area from Turkey to Ireland, to ensure there was frictionless trade, and to get us out of the CFP, CAP, and Freedom of Movement obligations.
All of which the government is trying to do. They might not succeed, of course, given the parliamentary arithmetic.
No defence in parliamentary arithmetic, remainer may there away our majority. She's a disaster. The cabinet is a disaster and our wider governing class is clueless. We're sleepwalking into a Corbyn government and the remainers in government are aiding and abetting that outcome.
They can both be true. It sounds as if the Times story is from when Corbyn got elected initially, but the other tweet was from last year during the election campaign.
They can indeed, but if you wanted to trick people like Anorak you would produce only some of the information and in a certain way. Look at the dates, his most recent preference is for the Conservatives over Labour yet the paper claims he backs Corbyn's Labour.
It isn't lying but it is deceiving and it works.
And the warm reception from the Daily Stormer? That NHS-loving playpen of fluffy diversity?
Because May kept putting off the crunch vote where the Cabinet had to decide what direction to go in.
And they let her do it. As we've just heard, Davis was apparently sidelined from day one. Indeed, it was a running joke on here about how many times it was leaked that he was thinking of resigning. In his letter he detailed longstanding concerns.
It might have helped if he'd spent more than four hours in actual negotiations with the EU, what with him being Her Majesty's Principal Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union and all. What the actual F was he doing all that time he was Brexit Secretary?
Why bother when the PM was telling EU negotiators to listen to remainer Robbins? Davis is a dick and he should have either reigned the minute he was undercut or not taken the job under those conditions, it doesn't change the fact that the remainer PM has put a completely unaccountable remainer civil servant in charge and he's complete fucked it up.
Davis is a dick, Boris is a joke, Gove has allowed himself to be sidelined, Fox is just the PM's drinking buddy... Where are the worthwhile Leave leaders who should be delivering the sunlit uplands?
Gove allowed himself to be sidelined? To be fair to him he sacrificed his own career to prevent Boris from running. He did the nation a favour and yet May saw fit to get rid of him because of a previous feud where Gove forced the Home Office to police extremists in the education sector against May's wishes. Further, the issue is in the civil service, we should have purged all you remainers from day one, no chance of someone like remainer Robbins undermining the national interest to keep us in the EU at any cost.
Purged? Is that really the way in which a modern advanced democracy should work? With the majority purging it's opponents? That is a very dangerous road.
17.4m people voted to leave the EU. The civil service is chock full of people opposed to that result. Something has to give. Tbh, I've said this before a lot, the remainers needed to be purged from day one of they weren't able to sign up to the new agenda, as instructed by the ultimate decision makers, the British public
Its a disgrace that the Treasury has not been investigated for producing this
Who else is there to blame for the abject state of the negotiations than the remainers in government?
I'd start with the Leave campaign, and before that UKIP and the BOOers, who - despite having an entire three years formal notice of the referendum, and decades before that of aspiration - failed to even begin to start thinking about what they actually wanted Leave to look like. This was a point I and other probed incessantly before the referendum. Answer came there none; just self-contradictory assurances that it would all be all right in the end.
Next on the list are DD, Boris, and Liam Fox, put into government explicitly by Theresa May, as proud Leavers, in the three key posts which would have allowed them - had they had the faintest idea of what they were trying to achieve - to take us to those sunny uplands.
Eventually, after two out of the three self-imploded, the grown-ups have to step in, to try to come up with something. It's far too bit late, of course - this should all have been discussed, and agreed, by the Leave side well before the referendum. But better late than never.
Theresa May, for all her many faults, has tried as hard as any human being could to make sense of this mess, and has probably got it as right as it is possible to get it, in terms of what she is aiming for. Sadly, a combination of parliamentary arithmetic following her GE2017 catastrophe, and the intransigence of the 'won't take Yes for an answer' brigade, may well mean that no sense can be made of it.
A near perfect analysis.
Before the referendum Leavers insisted that Vote Leave were not putting forward a manifesto and that it was up to the government to make a Brexit plan. OK. Then all of a sudden afterwards it was all "Well clearly we have to leave the Single Market, it's the will of they people". The NHS spending idea was not so quietly dropped, apparently that wasn't the will of the people. Now we have the spectacle of Leavers arguing for no deal (in a complete volte face from the referendum campaign), or blaming the Tory PM elected mostly by Leavers for the outcome of Brexit.
No it was not, Vote Leave made clear we would leave the EU and regain control of our borders and get more money for the NHS, even May has made commitments on all those promises
They can both be true. It sounds as if the Times story is from when Corbyn got elected initially, but the other tweet was from last year during the election campaign.
They can indeed, but if you wanted to trick people like Anorak you would produce only some of the information and in a certain way. Look at the dates, his most recent preference is for the Conservatives over Labour yet the paper claims he backs Corbyn's Labour.
It isn't lying but it is deceiving and it works.
And the warm reception from the Daily Stormer? That NHS-loving playpen of fluffy diversity?
Here's an interesting question: would it have been practically possible to set up something like the NHS if Britain hadn't been the mostly homogeneous society that it was in 1948?
A mostly homogeneous society plus the aftermath of the world wars plus decades of growing equality all helped facilitate the creation of the welfare state.
Also the fact that the working class had formed the backbone of the military which had won the war and they could not be consigned to a life of poverty and hopelessness which many had suffered in the 1930s.
Praise from the KKK, Tommy Robinson, and the Daily Stormer. You must be proud to be part of that.
Already pointed out the KKK guys most recent preference is Conservative over Labour... not that you should let a little things like facts bother you.
Also Tommy is pretty much in with the Britain First lot, different organisations but pretty much the same lot. The Britain First position...
'If you keep harrassing people like Jacob Rees Mogg then you will get the Britain First canons turned on you.
We will find out where you work, you live and you study.
Stay away from politicians on the right of politics or you will find Britain First on your doorstep.'
Britain First is also what the murderer shouted when he killed Jo Cox the Labour politician. Once again though don't let a little thing like facts bother you.
Edit: Also Tommy Robinson is actually quite the fan of Israel, it is about the Muslims for him.
Here's an interesting question: would it have been practically possible to set up something like the NHS if Britain hadn't been the mostly homogeneous society that it was in 1948?
A mostly homogeneous society plus the aftermath of the world wars plus decades of growing equality all helped facilitate the creation of the welfare state.
Also the fact that the working class had formed the backbone of the military which had won the war and they could not be consigned to a life of poverty and hopelessness which many had suffered in the 1930s.
Praise from the KKK, Tommy Robinson, and the Daily Stormer. You must be proud to be part of that.
Already pointed out the KKK guys most recent preference is Conservative over Labour... not that you should let a little things like facts bother you.
Facts? It doesn't say that in the tweet.
I don't think he's ever actually said he supports any party but the most recent tweet certainly indicates a great dislike of Corbyn's Labour.
Edit: So the preference of a lesser evil, like a punch in the arm versus one in the face.
More fake news. "Just as bad" implies no preference whatsoever.
I'm not sure posting up that image of Corbyn with the various symbols calling him the enemy of the white working class. With text saying God help us if this anti-White marxist is selected. Unfortunately when all is said and done, Theresa May, may be just as bad. Can really be said as seeing them as bad as each other.
He clearly sees Corbyn's Labour as a certain bad thing and May's Tories as a probable bad thing, hence the may be as bad as each other.
This is not me suggesting he loves the Tories or is a huge supporter, I'll leave that kind of spin to the Times and Anorak. Just pointing out that he dislikes May and then dislikes Corbyn even more.
Praise from the KKK, Tommy Robinson, and the Daily Stormer. You must be proud to be part of that.
Already pointed out the KKK guys most recent preference is Conservative over Labour... not that you should let a little things like facts bother you.
Facts? It doesn't say that in the tweet.
I don't think he's ever actually said he supports any party but the most recent tweet certainly indicates a great dislike of Corbyn's Labour.
Edit: So the preference of a lesser evil, like a punch in the arm versus one in the face.
More fake news. "Just as bad" implies no preference whatsoever.
I'm not sure posting up that image of Corbyn with the various symbols calling him the enemy of the white working class. With text saying God help us if this anti-White marxist is selected. Unfortunately when all is said and done, Theresa May, may be just as bad. Can really be said as seeing them as bad as each other.
He clearly sees Corbyn's Labour as a certain bad thing and May's Tories as a probable bad thing, hence the may be as bad as each other.
This is not me suggesting he loves the Tories or is a huge supporter, I'll leave that kind of spin to the Times and Anorak. Just pointing out that he dislikes May and then dislikes Corbyn even more.
He sees Corbyn as a bad thing, and May as just as bad. Simple as that. You're the one spreading falsehoods about him somehow having showing a preference fo the Tories. Ironic, given how you were going on about lies and deception earlier.
This is an interesting book about the famous National Birth Cohort Study that began in 1946. When they tried to get people to do the most recent study a couple of years ago they couldn't find enough people who were willing to take part.
Praise from the KKK, Tommy Robinson, and the Daily Stormer. You must be proud to be part of that.
Already pointed out the KKK guys most recent preference is Conservative over Labour... not that you should let a little things like facts bother you.
Facts? It doesn't say that in the tweet.
I don't think he's ever actually said he supports any party but the most recent tweet certainly indicates a great dislike of Corbyn's Labour.
Edit: So the preference of a lesser evil, like a punch in the arm versus one in the face.
More fake news. "Just as bad" implies no preference whatsoever.
I'm not sure posting up that image of Corbyn with the various symbols calling him the enemy of the white working class. With text saying God help us if this anti-White marxist is selected. Unfortunately when all is said and done, Theresa May, may be just as bad. Can really be said as seeing them as bad as each other.
He clearly sees Corbyn's Labour as a certain bad thing and May's Tories as a probable bad thing, hence the may be as bad as each other.
This is not me suggesting he loves the Tories or is a huge supporter, I'll leave that kind of spin to the Times and Anorak. Just pointing out that he dislikes May and then dislikes Corbyn even more.
He sees Corbyn as a bad thing, and May as just as bad. Simple as that. You're the one spreading falsehoods about him somehow having showing a preference fo the Tories. Ironic, given how you were going on about lies and deception earlier.
The part of the sentence actually says.
'Theresa May, may be just as bad.'
I assume you aren't actually disagreeing with this?
That is different from 'Theresa May, is just as bad.'
People's preference would be for something that may be bad over something that is bad. Not sure where the controversial suggestion is there?
Praise from the KKK, Tommy Robinson, and the Daily Stormer. You must be proud to be part of that.
Already pointed out the KKK guys most recent preference is Conservative over Labour... not that you should let a little things like facts bother you.
Also Tommy is pretty much in with the Britain First lot, different organisations but pretty much the same lot. The Britain First position...
'If you keep harrassing people like Jacob Rees Mogg then you will get the Britain First canons turned on you.
We will find out where you work, you live and you study.
Stay away from politicians on the right of politics or you will find Britain First on your doorstep.'
Britain First is also what the murderer shouted when he killed Jo Cox the Labour politician. Once again though don't let a little thing like facts bother you.
Edit: Also Tommy Robinson is actually quite the fan of Israel, it is about the Muslims for him.
When you're contorting yourself to justify endorsements from the far-right, don't you begin to question what you are a part of?
And the other night, you were stridently asserting that Willsman had done no wrong. You also claimed to look to David Schneider for guidance on antisemitism. Well Momentum have jettisoned him and Schneider has condemned him (as have many other senior Labour figures) Again, please take a moment to reflect on what you are part of, and whether it's really what you believe/want it to be.
When you're contorting yourself to justify endorsements from the far-right, don't you begin to question what you are a part of?
And the other night, you were stridently asserting that Willsman had done no wrong. You also claimed to look to David Schneider for guidance on antisemitism. Well Momentum have jettisoned him and Schneider has condemned him (as have many other senior Labour figures) Again, please take a moment to reflect on what you are part of, and whether it's really what you believe/want it to be.
I don't know if you actually read the post you replied to?
_________________________________________________________ Already pointed out the KKK guys most recent preference is Conservative over Labour... not that you should let a little things like facts bother you.
Also Tommy is pretty much in with the Britain First lot, different organisations but pretty much the same lot. The Britain First position...
'If you keep harrassing people like Jacob Rees Mogg then you will get the Britain First canons turned on you.
We will find out where you work, you live and you study.
Stay away from politicians on the right of politics or you will find Britain First on your doorstep.'
Britain First is also what the murderer shouted when he killed Jo Cox the Labour politician. Once again though don't let a little thing like facts bother you.
Edit: Also Tommy Robinson is actually quite the fan of Israel, it is about the Muslims for him. ________________________________________________
Can you actually read it this time and point out where the contortions to justify the endorsements of the far right are. As I pointed out, quite accurately, the far right are very anti Labour.
Which particular point did you have a problem with?
If you did understand the points and don't actually have a problem with any of the individual points then why are you lying to try and make your argument?
I'll come to your further question if you can deal with the above and tell me why you are happy to lie and spread propaganda in an effort to get your own way. For example the bit about Tommy Robinson, even the right wing papers and various other excessive spinners had stayed away from that line so you must be reading some really crazy people or come up with that conspiracy yourself...
Does fighting imaginary demons help you justify your political choices?
When you're contorting yourself to justify endorsements from the far-right, don't you begin to question what you are a part of?
And the other night, you were stridently asserting that Willsman had done no wrong. You also claimed to look to David Schneider for guidance on antisemitism. Well Momentum have jettisoned him and Schneider has condemned him (as have many other senior Labour figures) Again, please take a moment to reflect on what you are part of, and whether it's really what you believe/want it to be.
I don't know if you actually read the post you replied to?
_________________________________________________________ Already pointed out the KKK guys most recent preference is Conservative over Labour... not that you should let a little things like facts bother you.
Also Tommy is pretty much in with the Britain First lot, different organisations but pretty much the same lot. The Britain First position...
'If you keep harrassing people like Jacob Rees Mogg then you will get the Britain First canons turned on you.
We will find out where you work, you live and you study.
Stay away from politicians on the right of politics or you will find Britain First on your doorstep.'
Britain First is also what the murderer shouted when he killed Jo Cox the Labour politician. Once again though don't let a little thing like facts bother you.
Edit: Also Tommy Robinson is actually quite the fan of Israel, it is about the Muslims for him. ________________________________________________
Can you actually read it this time and point out where the contortions to justify the endorsements of the far right are. As I pointed out, quite accurately, the far right are very anti Labour.
Which particular point did you have a problem with?
If you did understand the points and don't actually have a problem with any of the individual points then why are you lying to try and make your argument?
I'll come to your further question if you can deal with the above and tell me why you are happy to lie and spread propaganda in an effort to get your own way. For example the bit about Tommy Robinson, even the right wing papers and various other excessive spinners had stayed away from that line so you must be reading some really crazy people or come up with that conspiracy yourself...
Does fighting imaginary demons help you justify your political choices?
Your leader today was put in a position where the article he wrote was titled "Labour is not a threat to Jewish life in Britain". Think about that. Try not to lazily point the finger at "the establishment" or "the Tory Press" or engage in the mangled sophistry of your other arguments. The aims of the left are admirable; the people leading the charge are not.
So you are not going to engage with any of my points because you were wrong....
Hey here's a thought, just because your fevered imagination has allowed you to get carried away with yourself on a little journey certainly doesn't mean I have to follow.
If saying things that are plainly lies makes you feel better by all means go for it, you'd be one of many just don't be surprised if that doesn't convince people on the left.
Stephen Bush offered some good reasons for it as well. Also the tweet underneath (same guy) points out that Michael White isn't saying this is a good thing or not just pointing out what he thinks the reason behind it is so this isn't to say Michael White is bad for saying it.
Why are Labour quietly reinstating people suspended for anti semitism?
If you are a militant fighter against anti semitism why did toy sit quietly at a meeting where a close ally made alleged anti semitic statements?
I'm not Corbyn but I'll take that up.
Much like the Conservatives depending on the seriousness and the person's previous they may be let back in after receiving training. Say like a few Conservatives with some dodgy comments about black people from Anne Marie Morris to some councillors.
If you are talking about the NEC meeting then there weren't any anti semitic comments aired.
Why are Labour quietly reinstating people suspended for anti semitism?
If you are a militant fighter against anti semitism why did toy sit quietly at a meeting where a close ally made alleged anti semitic statements?
I'm not Corbyn but I'll take that up.
Much like the Conservatives depending on the seriousness and the person's previous they may be let back in after receiving training. Say like a few Conservatives with some dodgy comments about black people from Anne Marie Morris to some councillors.
If you are talking about the NEC meeting then there weren't any anti semitic comments aired.
Why are Labour quietly reinstating people suspended for anti semitism?
If you are a militant fighter against anti semitism why did toy sit quietly at a meeting where a close ally made alleged anti semitic statements?
I'm not Corbyn but I'll take that up.
Much like the Conservatives depending on the seriousness and the person's previous they may be let back in after receiving training. Say like a few Conservatives with some dodgy comments about black people from Anne Marie Morris to some councillors.
If you are talking about the NEC meeting then there weren't any anti semitic comments aired.
Were you there then?
I am going to take a wild guess that neither of us were at the Labour NEC meeting although I'm not exactly sure what that has to do with it.
Why are Labour quietly reinstating people suspended for anti semitism?
If you are a militant fighter against anti semitism why did toy sit quietly at a meeting where a close ally made alleged anti semitic statements?
#jc9 - that is the answer. The ends justify etc etc.
Is that the reason you use to justify to yourself the Conservatives doing the same thing?
Or do you believe stuff like Anne Marie Morris comment, or the councillor who likes jokes about brown people being like dogs is actually okay so it is different?
Corbyn deserves as much condemnation as Cliff Richard does for his denials of wrongdoing.
Corbyn is as much the unions mans as the members, it is only really some of the centrist MPs opposing him and them leaving would probably be helpful if anything.
Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.
Brexiteers need to be sterilised.
Remainers have humiliated this nation. She's begging because her strategy has been awful.
Oh the irony! The current dismal state of the nation is the fault of Remainers - wow!
Remainers currently hold number 10, number 11, the home office and the foreign office. The latter at least was a recent change, though I think we can all agree on Boris being useless. However, the point stands. Remainers have controlled all of the major branches of government and are now trying to shirk the responsibility of their poor strategy which had left the UK in the weakest possible position in terms of getting a proper brexit deal.
If it weren't for Leavers we wouldn't be up this shitty creek without a paddle.
You mean the 17m people who voted leave?
I do.
So you're saying that politicians are accountable to the public?
?? I wasn't saying that, although I believe it to be true at a general level.
Not really sure what point you are trying to make.
The people voted to leave, the remainers in government are fucking it up and apparently it's the people's fault. At least in your world.
Sorry, remind me who was the Brexit Secretary until he flounced off realising it was all too difficult?
Didn't he flounce off because May and Robbins were doing everything without him?
Took his sweet time then - why did it take him so long to notice?
It's a justifiable reason for resignation, I just cannot square it with not attempting a change in leadership right now. Well, that's not quite true. I can square it with those who are no deal supporters. But anyone who claims to want a deal and waits even a minute longer, a minute they could be spending pursuing the right kind of deal the right way, nope, not buying it.
Because May kept putting off the crunch vote where the Cabinet had to decide what direction to go in.
I think it’s more that she allowed him to carry on working on his White Paper for 2 years the. The weekend before it was published said “don’t worry, here’s one I made earlier”
Who else is there to blame for the abject state of the negotiations than the remainers in government?
I'd start with the Leave campaign, and before that UKIP and the BOOers, who - despite having an entire three years formal notice of the referendum, and decades before that of aspiration - failed to even begin to start thinking about what they actually wanted Leave to look like. This was a point I and other probed incessantly before the referendum. Answer came there none; just self-contradictory assurances that it would all be all right in the end.
Next on the list are DD, Boris, and Liam Fox, put into government explicitly by Theresa May, as proud Leavers, in the three key posts which would have allowed them - had they had the faintest idea of what they were trying to achieve - to take us to those sunny uplands.
Eventually, after two out of the three self-imploded, the grown-ups have to step in, to try to come up with something. It's far too bit late, of course - this should all have been discussed, and agreed, by the Leave side well before the referendum. But better late than never.
Theresa May, for all her many faults, has tried as hard as any human being could to make sense of this mess, and has probably got it as right as it is possible to get it, in terms of what she is aiming for. Sadly, a combination of parliamentary arithmetic following her GE2017 catastrophe, and the intransigence of the 'won't take Yes for an answer' brigade, may well mean that no sense can be made of it.
That’s a little one sided. Last year, for instance, Hammond refused to allocate any funds to No Deal preparation
To be fair there is a year between the tweet and the article
In that time there is a perception among some that Corbyn’s Labour is tolerant of anti-semitism (deliberately worded as not relevant to argue whether it is or not but I think it is unarguable that some perceive it’s so).
Do you think that perception might have had an impact on whether a racist and member of the KKK supports Corbyn? IIRC (and it’s not an area of interest so never researched) the KKK was anti-Semitic as well as racist and all sorts of other unpleasant stuff
17.4m people voted to leave the EU. The civil service is chock full of people opposed to that result. Something has to give. Tbh, I've said this before a lot, the remainers needed to be purged from day one of they weren't able to sign up to the new agenda, as instructed by the ultimate decision makers, the British public
The British public - or at least 17.4m of them - instructed the government to ensure we'd be part of a Free Trade Area from Turkey to Ireland, to ensure there was frictionless trade, and to get us out of the CFP, CAP, and Freedom of Movement obligations.
All of which the government is trying to do. They might not succeed, of course, given the parliamentary arithmetic.
No, you have made this up. A free trade area yes; nobody guaranteed 'frictionless' trade (Turkey doesn't have it for example). We could achieve everything Leave promised with an FTA. It is May who refuses to try and negotiate one, because (a) she is a Remainer and (b) she is too stubborn to admit she made a horrendous error agreeing to the NI backstop and now doesn't have the guts to withdraw it.
Let me know when the Government tries to agree and FTA with the EU. Until then, Remainers will get the blame for ignoring the will of the people. Simple.
I think it's very unhealthy to divide people into "Leavers" and "Remainers". Theresa May, for all her faults, is committed to honouring the referendum result. I would add that the same is true of almost all cabinet ministers, irrespective of which way they campaigned. Now, it's true that former Remainers probably want a closer relationship than most Leavers. But we need to agree the Brexit that is supported by the greatest proportion of the country, irrespective of how they voted, not what satisfies 51% of the 52%.
And I think that likely means a Brexit that is probably not a million miles away from the Chequers proposal.
Now, is some variant of Chequers the best the UK could have hoped for two years ago? No. And there have been numerous mistakes. Many of the leading Leave figures were far too sanguine about "the easiest FTA in history" with the EU, and we have done a terrible job with current EU FTA countries (thanks Liam!).
And our threat to leave with No Deal looks hollow when we haven't done a single bit of preparation, besides repeating tired catch phrases.
To b fair there is a year between the tweet and the article
In that time there is a perception among some that Corbyn’s Labour is tolerant of anti-semitism (deliberately worded as not relevant to argue whether it is or not but I think it is unarguable that some perceive it’s so).
Do you think that perception might have had an impact on whether a racist and member of the KKK supports Corbyn? IIRC (and it’s not an area of interest so never researched) the KKK was anti-Semitic as well as racist and all sorts of other unpleasant stuff
Seems to be two issues IMO.
One is The Times clever spin to claim David Duke backs Corbyn when the most recent evidence we have points to him disliking Corbyn more than May. They haven't lied obviously but people were misled into thinking David Duke actually backed Corbyn so their trick worked. Whether this is their fault or the people tricked need to get better at spotting spin is a whole other (third?) issue.
The second issue is would the KKK now back Corbyn, given their like of Trump and his targeting of Muslims and immigration in general I'd assume they'd feel largely the same about him. Much like Britain First and David Duke himself as evidenced by his twitter, the far right tend to think of people like Corbyn, Abbot and the like as against 'the white working class'. Also and it seems silly that they still care but you could see it with the Soviet symbols in David Dukes post, the far right types tend to have a real thing against communists, which Corbyn isn't but that generally gets thrown around that he is.
Not that this second issue has anything at all to do with the Times article, they weren't making the case that the KKK really hated Corbyn but would have warmed to him recently because of incidents in the last year, they were trying to trick people into believing David Duke backs Corbyn when his most recent opinion indicates he likes him even less than May.
I think the far right tend to prefer trying to kill Labour politicians than enthusiastically backing them, Jo Cox, the guy who ended up killing a Muslim in Corbyn's constituency but wanted him instead or Sadiq Khan and there was recently a story about a guy who appeared in a BNP youth video who tried to kill a Labour politician getting charged. The far right really don't like Labour.
The one somewhat decent (so a politician on some level) British exception to this, not Nick Griffin because he only threatened to vote for Labour if May started some huge war in Syria, is the BNP councillor who stepped down and said he actually preferred Labour to the Conservatives because Labour are less politically correct. Which I guess hasn't been used at all because right wingers often complain about the left being too PC.
Saying: "There seems to be two issues," and later saying: "Not that this second issue has anything at all to do with the Times article" rather indicates there is one issue (and Ii think that one's bogus as well ...
Why are Labour quietly reinstating people suspended for anti semitism?
If you are a militant fighter against anti semitism why did toy sit quietly at a meeting where a close ally made alleged anti semitic statements?
#jc9 - that is the answer. The ends justify etc etc.
Is that the reason you use to justify to yourself the Conservatives doing the same thing?
Or do you believe stuff like Anne Marie Morris comment, or the councillor who likes jokes about brown people being like dogs is actually okay so it is different?
I'm bemused that someone who is so concerned with sniffing out Islamaphobia in the Conservative Party is utterly blind to anti-Semitism within his own party. Something that not only many people within that party has said exists, but even your own leader.
The correct answer - especially for anyone claiming to be anti-racist - is to condemn it wherever it occurs, regardless of whether you are favourable or not to the party it is in.
Something that is sadly beyond you - because you are not anti-racist: you are just blindly pro the hard-left.
Saying: "There seems to be two issues," and later saying: "Not that this second issue has anything at all to do with the Times article" rather indicates there is one issue (and Ii think that one's bogus as well ...
Two issues raised by Charles' post, the post I was replying to. One of which was incorrectly (or bogusly if prefer) linked to the Times article.
'The correct answer - especially for anyone claiming to be anti-racist - is to condemn it wherever it occurs, regardless of whether you are favourable or not to the party it is in. '
Which applies to all parties... apart obviously from overtly racist ones. Just because someone shares some of the same views doesn’t mean you have to agree with everything they say, or think you have to keep quiet when they say or do something you find unpleasant.
Why are Labour quietly reinstating people suspended for anti semitism?
If you are a militant fighter against anti semitism why did toy sit quietly at a meeting where a close ally made alleged anti semitic statements?
#jc9 - that is the answer. The ends justify etc etc.
Is that the reason you use to justify to yourself the Conservatives doing the same thing?
Or do you believe stuff like Anne Marie Morris comment, or the councillor who likes jokes about brown people being like dogs is actually okay so it is different?
I'm bemused that someone who is so concerned with sniffing out Islamaphobia in the Conservative Party is utterly blind to anti-Semitism within his own party. Something that not only many people within that party has said exists, but even your own leader.
The correct answer - especially for anyone claiming to be anti-racist - is to condemn it wherever it occurs, regardless of whether you are favourable or not to the party it is in.
Something that is sadly beyond you - because you are not anti-racist: you are just blindly pro the hard-left.
The post I responded to said '#jc9 - that is the answer. The ends justify etc etc.' in response to a post that asked why Labour were quietly reinstating people suspended for anti-Semitism.
So my post asked rottenborough if that was the reason he justified voting for the conservatives when they had also quietly reinstated people suspended for racism.
As if you are going to argue that makes a political party untouchable then you can't really vote for a party doing exactly the same thing.
Best thing to do is click the previous quotes thing to get a flavour of the conversation rather than making incorrect assumptions about what it is about.
I'm inclined to agree with Mr. Smithson. It's certainly credible, but there has been much crying wolf over May's departure.
Mr Dancer:
I am really pi**ed off with you; you have really gone too far.
Yesterday Ii posted I was in Wisbech, and you asked "Where is that?"
I cannot believe an Englishman, and even a Yorkshireman, would not know about Cambridgeshire's Crown. A place that is truly a jewel: from the riverfront Georgian houses so gorgeous that they have to be hidden behind a floodwall, or the flower baskets on the Freedom Bridge guarding views over the estuarine mudflats.
In fact, Wisbech is such an utterly splendid place that I even believe that SeanT refuses to go there, for fear it will spoil his writings about Venice, Rome, or the Cote d'Azur - which will all pale into insignificance when compared to the BP garage by the Horsefair bus station.
I expect you immediately to seek penance by visiting Wisbech, and also those other excellent English places: Scunthorpe, Hull, Luton and Bedford.
I'm inclined to agree with Mr. Smithson. It's certainly credible, but there has been much crying wolf over May's departure.
Mr Dancer:
I am really pi**ed off with you; you have really gone too far.
Yesterday Ii posted I was in Wisbech, and you asked "Where is that?"
I cannot believe an Englishman, and even a Yorkshireman, would not know about Cambridgeshire's Crown. A place that is truly a jewel: from the riverfront Georgian houses so gorgeous that they have to be hidden behind a floodwall, or the flower baskets on the Freedom Bridge guarding views over the estuarine mudflats.
In fact, Wisbech is such an utterly splendid place that I even believe that SeanT refuses to go there, for fear it will spoil his writings about Venice, Rome, or the Cote d'Azur - which will all pale into insignificance when compared to the BP garage by the Horsefair bus station.
I expect you immediately to seek penance by visiting Wisbech, and also those other excellent English places: Scunthorpe, Hull, Luton and Bedford.
The town at the centre of Waterland by Graham Swift is based on Wisbech.
'The correct answer - especially for anyone claiming to be anti-racist - is to condemn it wherever it occurs, regardless of whether you are favourable or not to the party it is in. '
Which applies to all parties... apart obviously from overtly racist ones. Just because someone shares some of the same views doesn’t mean you have to agree with everything they say, or think you have to keep quiet when they say or do something you find unpleasant.
Exactly, and there probably shouldn't be any hypocrisy about claiming one party is beyond voting for when they reinstate people suspended for racism when the other party does it as well.
Outside of partisan bickering pretending only one party has done anything wrong is pointless.
Well at least with the Tories and Labour. Maybe the Lib Dems, Greens and SNP can actually preach at everyone else.
Edit: Preach in regards to reinstating people suspended for racism, I'm sure they have done plenty wrong beside that.
Comments
The lady ain't going nowherz pal
But wait! When May started preparing for No Deal, Leavers whined that it was fearmongering.
So, we should have spent billions on No Deal preparations - but kept them TOP SECRET to avoid panic
Except from all the EU27 who would surely be most intimidated and give us EVERYTHING we asked for. Huzzah! Land of hope and gloooooory.....
Brexit is a Baldrick style cunning plan isn't it?
Next on the list are DD, Boris, and Liam Fox, put into government explicitly by Theresa May, as proud Leavers, in the three key posts which would have allowed them - had they had the faintest idea of what they were trying to achieve - to take us to those sunny uplands.
Eventually, after two out of the three self-imploded, the grown-ups have to step in, to try to come up with something. It's far too bit late, of course - this should all have been discussed, and agreed, by the Leave side well before the referendum. But better late than never.
Theresa May, for all her many faults, has tried as hard as any human being could to make sense of this mess, and has probably got it as right as it is possible to get it, in terms of what she is aiming for. Sadly, a combination of parliamentary arithmetic following her GE2017 catastrophe, and the intransigence of the 'won't take Yes for an answer' brigade, may well mean that no sense can be made of it.
So, would that be a check on how civil servants voted (?), or maybe they'd have to sign an affadavit that they voted Leave, with the refusniks sacked?
Before the referendum Leavers insisted that Vote Leave were not putting forward a manifesto and that it was up to the government to make a Brexit plan. OK.
Then all of a sudden afterwards it was all "Well clearly we have to leave the Single Market, it's the will of they people". The NHS spending idea was not so quietly dropped, apparently that wasn't the will of the people.
Now we have the spectacle of Leavers arguing for no deal (in a complete volte face from the referendum campaign), or blaming the Tory PM elected mostly by Leavers for the outcome of Brexit.
https://twitter.com/ToryFibs/status/1025316992880914433
Captain Blackadder: Really, Baldrick? A cunning and subtle one?
Private Baldrick: Yes, sir.
Captain Blackadder: As cunning as a Dr Foxy who's just been appointed Professor of EU Negotiations at Cambridge University?
Private Baldrick: Yes, sir.
Captain Blackadder: Well, I'm afraid it'll have to wait. Whatever it was, I'm sure it was better than my plan to get out of Brexit by pretending to be mad. I mean, who would have noticed another mad PBer round here?
Captain Blackadder: [whistle blows] Good luck, everyone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vH3-Gt7mgyM
2) Now 2/3 are gone in a hissy fit.
3) The lack of progress over the last 2 years is solely the fault of the remainers who replaced them.
Yep. That makes sense.
A very intelligent post Nabavi...I know I've had a dig at you for being pompous, stating the bleeding obvious, but at least you are not pompous and thick, like Corbyn....
All of which the government is trying to do. They might not succeed, of course, given the parliamentary arithmetic.
TSE loves to troll the Tory Right and Leavers, as he gets a kick out of it.
And we rise to it each and every time.
The Leavers in government are / were incompetents
The Remainers in government are / were incompetents
That includes the Sir Humphreys and 'expert' diplomats in addition to the politicians.
And relates also to many more areas than Brexit.
Finally the incompetence in government has existed for decades on issues related to the EU.
Night all
It isn't lying but it is deceiving and it works.
It really is getting very boring.
Night all. I hope you didn't waste all of your Friday night.
Back in the morning.. Night.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/524967/hm_treasury_analysis_the_immediate_economic_impact_of_leaving_the_eu_web.pdf
with consequential sackings and / or prosecutions.
Also Tommy is pretty much in with the Britain First lot, different organisations but pretty much the same lot. The Britain First position...
'If you keep harrassing people like Jacob Rees Mogg then you will get the Britain First canons turned on you.
We will find out where you work, you live and you study.
Stay away from politicians on the right of politics or you will find Britain First on your doorstep.'
Britain First is also what the murderer shouted when he killed Jo Cox the Labour politician. Once again though don't let a little thing like facts bother you.
Edit: Also Tommy Robinson is actually quite the fan of Israel, it is about the Muslims for him.
BTW the 1920s were worse than the 1930s.
Edit: So the preference of a lesser evil, like a punch in the arm versus one in the face.
But in an exciting development Hampshire made its first entry as a soft fruit provider in being a source of blackberries.
He clearly sees Corbyn's Labour as a certain bad thing and May's Tories as a probable bad thing, hence the may be as bad as each other.
This is not me suggesting he loves the Tories or is a huge supporter, I'll leave that kind of spin to the Times and Anorak. Just pointing out that he dislikes May and then dislikes Corbyn even more.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Life-Project-Extraordinary-Story-Ordinary/dp/184614826X
'Theresa May, may be just as bad.'
I assume you aren't actually disagreeing with this?
That is different from 'Theresa May, is just as bad.'
People's preference would be for something that may be bad over something that is bad. Not sure where the controversial suggestion is there?
And the other night, you were stridently asserting that Willsman had done no wrong. You also claimed to look to David Schneider for guidance on antisemitism. Well Momentum have jettisoned him and Schneider has condemned him (as have many other senior Labour figures) Again, please take a moment to reflect on what you are part of, and whether it's really what you believe/want it to be.
_________________________________________________________
Already pointed out the KKK guys most recent preference is Conservative over Labour... not that you should let a little things like facts bother you.
Also Tommy is pretty much in with the Britain First lot, different organisations but pretty much the same lot. The Britain First position...
'If you keep harrassing people like Jacob Rees Mogg then you will get the Britain First canons turned on you.
We will find out where you work, you live and you study.
Stay away from politicians on the right of politics or you will find Britain First on your doorstep.'
Britain First is also what the murderer shouted when he killed Jo Cox the Labour politician. Once again though don't let a little thing like facts bother you.
Edit: Also Tommy Robinson is actually quite the fan of Israel, it is about the Muslims for him.
________________________________________________
Can you actually read it this time and point out where the contortions to justify the endorsements of the far right are. As I pointed out, quite accurately, the far right are very anti Labour.
Which particular point did you have a problem with?
If you did understand the points and don't actually have a problem with any of the individual points then why are you lying to try and make your argument?
I'll come to your further question if you can deal with the above and tell me why you are happy to lie and spread propaganda in an effort to get your own way. For example the bit about Tommy Robinson, even the right wing papers and various other excessive spinners had stayed away from that line so you must be reading some really crazy people or come up with that conspiracy yourself...
Does fighting imaginary demons help you justify your political choices?
https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1025421007945981952
Hey here's a thought, just because your fevered imagination has allowed you to get carried away with yourself on a little journey certainly doesn't mean I have to follow.
If saying things that are plainly lies makes you feel better by all means go for it, you'd be one of many just don't be surprised if that doesn't convince people on the left.
https://twitter.com/ShehabKhan/status/1025441866442002433
Stephen Bush offered some good reasons for it as well. Also the tweet underneath (same guy) points out that Michael White isn't saying this is a good thing or not just pointing out what he thinks the reason behind it is so this isn't to say Michael White is bad for saying it.
Why are Labour quietly reinstating people suspended for anti semitism?
If you are a militant fighter against anti semitism why did toy sit quietly at a meeting where a close ally made alleged anti semitic statements?
Much like the Conservatives depending on the seriousness and the person's previous they may be let back in after receiving training. Say like a few Conservatives with some dodgy comments about black people from Anne Marie Morris to some councillors.
If you are talking about the NEC meeting then there weren't any anti semitic comments aired.
How do you defend the vile filth that Labour have descended to?
Bollx.
#jc9
Have we as a country stooped to this?
Or do you believe stuff like Anne Marie Morris comment, or the councillor who likes jokes about brown people being like dogs is actually okay so it is different?
This is the actual headline on Guardian web page.
How low will Labour unions and moderates go before they do something??
Corbyn is as much the unions mans as the members, it is only really some of the centrist MPs opposing him and them leaving would probably be helpful if anything.
Your guys screwed the pooch
In that time there is a perception among some that Corbyn’s Labour is tolerant of anti-semitism (deliberately worded as not relevant to argue whether it is or not but I think it is unarguable that some perceive it’s so).
Do you think that perception might have had an impact on whether a racist and member of the KKK supports Corbyn? IIRC (and it’s not an area of interest so never researched) the KKK was anti-Semitic as well as racist and all sorts of other unpleasant stuff
Let me know when the Government tries to agree and FTA with the EU. Until then, Remainers will get the blame for ignoring the will of the people. Simple.
And I think that likely means a Brexit that is probably not a million miles away from the Chequers proposal.
Now, is some variant of Chequers the best the UK could have hoped for two years ago? No. And there have been numerous mistakes. Many of the leading Leave figures were far too sanguine about "the easiest FTA in history" with the EU, and we have done a terrible job with current EU FTA countries (thanks Liam!).
And our threat to leave with No Deal looks hollow when we haven't done a single bit of preparation, besides repeating tired catch phrases.
One is The Times clever spin to claim David Duke backs Corbyn when the most recent evidence we have points to him disliking Corbyn more than May. They haven't lied obviously but people were misled into thinking David Duke actually backed Corbyn so their trick worked. Whether this is their fault or the people tricked need to get better at spotting spin is a whole other (third?) issue.
The second issue is would the KKK now back Corbyn, given their like of Trump and his targeting of Muslims and immigration in general I'd assume they'd feel largely the same about him. Much like Britain First and David Duke himself as evidenced by his twitter, the far right tend to think of people like Corbyn, Abbot and the like as against 'the white working class'. Also and it seems silly that they still care but you could see it with the Soviet symbols in David Dukes post, the far right types tend to have a real thing against communists, which Corbyn isn't but that generally gets thrown around that he is.
Not that this second issue has anything at all to do with the Times article, they weren't making the case that the KKK really hated Corbyn but would have warmed to him recently because of incidents in the last year, they were trying to trick people into believing David Duke backs Corbyn when his most recent opinion indicates he likes him even less than May.
I think the far right tend to prefer trying to kill Labour politicians than enthusiastically backing them, Jo Cox, the guy who ended up killing a Muslim in Corbyn's constituency but wanted him instead or Sadiq Khan and there was recently a story about a guy who appeared in a BNP youth video who tried to kill a Labour politician getting charged. The far right really don't like Labour.
The one somewhat decent (so a politician on some level) British exception to this, not Nick Griffin because he only threatened to vote for Labour if May started some huge war in Syria, is the BNP councillor who stepped down and said he actually preferred Labour to the Conservatives because Labour are less politically correct. Which I guess hasn't been used at all because right wingers often complain about the left being too PC.
https://twitter.com/TheEconomist/status/1025594176573001728?s=19
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borda_count
Who says weshould have no hard Borda?
Saying: "There seems to be two issues," and later saying: "Not that this second issue has anything at all to do with the Times article" rather indicates there is one issue (and Ii think that one's bogus as well ...
The correct answer - especially for anyone claiming to be anti-racist - is to condemn it wherever it occurs, regardless of whether you are favourable or not to the party it is in.
Something that is sadly beyond you - because you are not anti-racist: you are just blindly pro the hard-left.
I'm inclined to agree with Mr. Smithson. It's certainly credible, but there has been much crying wolf over May's departure.
'The correct answer - especially for anyone claiming to be anti-racist - is to condemn it wherever it occurs, regardless of whether you are favourable or not to the party it is in. '
Which applies to all parties... apart obviously from overtly racist ones. Just because someone shares some of the same views doesn’t mean you have to agree with everything they say, or think you have to keep quiet when they say or do something you find unpleasant.
I understand you have washed your mouth out with soap?
So my post asked rottenborough if that was the reason he justified voting for the conservatives when they had also quietly reinstated people suspended for racism.
As if you are going to argue that makes a political party untouchable then you can't really vote for a party doing exactly the same thing.
Best thing to do is click the previous quotes thing to get a flavour of the conversation rather than making incorrect assumptions about what it is about.
I am really pi**ed off with you; you have really gone too far.
Yesterday Ii posted I was in Wisbech, and you asked "Where is that?"
I cannot believe an Englishman, and even a Yorkshireman, would not know about Cambridgeshire's Crown. A place that is truly a jewel: from the riverfront Georgian houses so gorgeous that they have to be hidden behind a floodwall, or the flower baskets on the Freedom Bridge guarding views over the estuarine mudflats.
In fact, Wisbech is such an utterly splendid place that I even believe that SeanT refuses to go there, for fear it will spoil his writings about Venice, Rome, or the Cote d'Azur - which will all pale into insignificance when compared to the BP garage by the Horsefair bus station.
I expect you immediately to seek penance by visiting Wisbech, and also those other excellent English places: Scunthorpe, Hull, Luton and Bedford.
Outside of partisan bickering pretending only one party has done anything wrong is pointless.
Well at least with the Tories and Labour. Maybe the Lib Dems, Greens and SNP can actually preach at everyone else.
Edit: Preach in regards to reinstating people suspended for racism, I'm sure they have done plenty wrong beside that.