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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Sean Fear looks back to the Jewish boys during his school-days

SystemSystem Posts: 6,199
edited August 4 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Sean Fear looks back to the Jewish boys during his school-days and wonders just what has happened to LABOUR

"Today, other than another article bemoaning a situation of the Party’s own making, nothing has changed. There is no trust left. We find ourselves asking once again for action, not words" pic.twitter.com/jmNDX9Xvqa

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Comments

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 10,451
    edited August 4
    First!

    Like no-one, really.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 3,406
    Second.

    Another day of arguing anti-Semitism vs anti Zionism?

    Time to get up and do something else.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 18,613
    Mainstream Conservatives detest anti-semitism too. It is just extraordinary that Labour apppears unconcerned that it gives the impression of actlively looking to corner this particular, er, niche outlook.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 10,451
    edited August 4
    A well argued lead, except that I don't really buy the left-success envy point. Surely Labour's foreign policy outlook, the left's need to identify with 'the oppressed' around the world, and its intention to capture the UK's growing muslim community as an interest group are far more relevant?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 20,675
    Another good threader. Thanks, Sean.

    What worries me are the comments under articles about the problems Labour and Corbyn are having - and in a couple of cases, on my Facebook feed with people I know. In their defence of Corby and Labour, they can go (ahem) over the top and propagate memes that could be construed as anti-Semitic.

    Now, it's possible to say that comments below the line on newspapers and the like are filled with trolls, and that they're not real Labour supporters. Except some people who are known to the wider public have made such comments, and, as I say above, people I personally know have crossed the line (and no, I won't give details).

    This is helping normalise anti-Semitism and spreading hatred.

    It is perfectly possible to criticise Israel without crossing the line into anti-Semitism. Which makes me wonder why people are not doing so ?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 18,613
    Ma Beckett and the other fools who nominated Corbyn "for a broader debate" - is this debate about what Labour has turned into broad enough for you now?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 44,245
    Sad but good article, Mr. Fear.

    Dr. Foxy, it's a subject worthy of much attention.

    FPT: F1: having another glance at the Red Bull 2nd Chap market. Odds unchanged but, as a reminder, there are two clear favourites with Gasly 1.57 and Sainz 2.62.

    Hartley is third favourite at 13. That makes no sense to me as Toro Rosso tried to replace him this season (during the season), so why would he be promoted? The Red Bull seat, even as second fiddle, is one that's very attractive.

    Kubica is 17. It'd be a great story for him to return but he was testing and didn't make it in this year. Plus, he's an unknown quantity right now, whereas there are plenty of other drivers who would jump at the chance for a top seat.

    Kvyat's 21. See Hartley, and add that he isn't driving in F1 any more.

    Wehrlein is 34. Left Sauber last year, and appears to have been a little carried away with his own hype (unlike Leclerc).

    That leaves, besides the two favourites, Raikkonen at 29 and Alonso at 51 (34 and 61 with boost, respectively). Raikkonen can be an ideal wingman for Verstappen, but the rumour is that with the change in Ferrari's leadership they're leaning towards retaining the Finn and postponing Leclerc's promotion. If that's not the case, Raikkonen could be a good selection.

    Alonso would be more disruptive, but also faster. The two elder drivers are probably only in the sport for a couple of seasons, though, which may suit Red Bull.

    Anyway, I think Gasly or Sainz is pretty likely but perhaps not enough to warrant their odds being so short. Mr. B's [think it was him, apologies if not] reasoning yesterday that if it were Sainz, out of his Renault seat next year, he would've been announced pretty much immediately was something that made sense to me. But that also raises a question mark over Gasly, because if there are only two chaps to pick from and one isn't chosen, that means Gasly should've been announced pronto (although there may be some I-dotting and T-crossing, so it's not 100%).

    If one of the favourites doesn't get the gig, I think Raikkonen/Alonso are in with a shot.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 1,211
    In terms of voting Labour had lost the Jewish community before Corbyn had become leader...

    In percentage terms I think it is about 3-5% change in Jewish vote for Labour from Jewish leader Ed Miliband to Corbyn.

    On that bombshell I'll leave everyone to state how Labour are racist and evil and the Conservatives are beyond reproach and go about my day...
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 20,675

    In terms of voting Labour had lost the Jewish community before Corbyn had become leader...

    In percentage terms I think it is about 3-5% change in Jewish vote for Labour from Jewish leader Ed Miliband to Corbyn.

    On that bombshell I'll leave everyone to state how Labour are racist and evil and the Conservatives are beyond reproach and go about my day...

    Who has said "Conservatives are beyond reproach" ?
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 4,596

    In terms of voting Labour had lost the Jewish community before Corbyn had become leader...

    In percentage terms I think it is about 3-5% change in Jewish vote for Labour from Jewish leader Ed Miliband to Corbyn.

    On that bombshell I'll leave everyone to state how Labour are racist and evil and the Conservatives are beyond reproach and go about my day...

    The Jezza apologist speaks. Can you back that up?

    The party was doing a whole lot better in places like Barnet until Jezza came on the scene
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 11,568

    In terms of voting Labour had lost the Jewish community before Corbyn had become leader...

    In percentage terms I think it is about 3-5% change in Jewish vote for Labour from Jewish leader Ed Miliband to Corbyn.

    On that bombshell I'll leave everyone to state how Labour are racist and evil and the Conservatives are beyond reproach and go about my day...

    A quick look at the 2018 election results in Barnet and Kersal, Salford and the change since 2014 suggests a much bigger vote swing.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 26,795
    A very fine article that brilliantly captures the despair so many of my Jewish friends feel. I was at William Ellis, just across Hampstead Heath from UCS, probably a few years before SeanF attended. It also had a strong Jewish contingent drawn from the same kind of demographic he describes. It’s extraordinary to think that Labour has managed to alienate such people.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 15,442
    I find it mental that this is still going. Jez has to get a handle on it. To my mind, the Jewish Labour supporters, members and MPs have always provided the intellectual capacity to the party and enabled it to reach out to non-traditional supporters and voters.

    I don't know why Jez is chucking these voters away, but I think it makes Labour's appeal much narrower. Not because they have lost a few hundred thousand Jewish voters, I don't think the numbers make a difference, no, I think Labour will have lost its conscience if it continues on this path. That's what the Jewish movement gives Labour and they are throwing it away.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 4,366
    edited August 4
    Foxy said:

    Second.

    Another day of arguing anti-Semitism vs anti Zionism?

    Time to get up and do something else.

    It makes a change from Brexit. Well, I must be off :D
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 32,445
    edited August 4
    rcs1000 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:



    And I think that likely means a Brexit that is probably not a million miles away from the Chequers proposal.

    Barnier has already told her to stick Chequers up her hole hasn't he?
    No, he said it was 80% of the way there. Where he disagreed was the "customs partnership" element
    Same thing. She cannot sell her proposal, she certainly can't sell 80% of it plus a last 20% that is more favourable to the EU.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 8,806
    One problem for Corbyn might be that some of (let's say) his associates with have been rather free in comparing Israeli policies with Nazi Germany, which did not used to be considered antisemitic but now is, following the 2016 IHRA definition. It is notable that Labour weakened (at best) this point in its own rules. And most of these people are on the record of drawing these parallels (often on Youtube). So if Labour did accept this is automatically antisemitism, the purge would need to begin immediately. There could be no statute of limitations.

    Of course, that might not be a bad thing. And even if it is, to be cynical about politics, it may be a price worth paying: lose a few hot-heads, some of whom no doubt are antisemitic by any definition, in order to put this to bed.

    There are of course those in the Conservative Party who like to use the N-word (Nazi) in the same way, except there it is to criticise Germany or the EU, so that's all right then.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 32,445
    edited August 4
    I'll pass. Even for a political debating issue this is meaningless. He should be able to close it down, but hasn't, yet it doesn't matter.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 10,567



    It is perfectly possible to criticise Israel without crossing the line into anti-Semitism. Which makes me wonder why people are not doing so ?

    Why? If your aim is the destruction of Israel, its removal from the map - and think how unusual an aim that is, more new countries having been created since WW2 than lost - then it is essential to have the world think of it as uniquely evil.

    So one of the reasons why those who do not want Israel to exist are so keen to describe it as a Nazi or Nazi-like state is because that makes it so much easier to justify its destruction, its removal from the world scene. After all, who wouldn’t want to stop another Nazi state arising? Ditto with the comparisons with apartheid South Africa.

    So the use of Nazi comparisons is not just people getting overheated or being anti-semitic or even being enthusiastically pro-Palestinian. It is a necessary part of an agenda which has as its logical end point the extermination of the state of Israel. Such language is not necessary (and arguably deeply unhelpful) if your aim is to get Israel to change its policies for the better. But it is absolutely essential if you want Israel to disappear and be replaced by a Palestinian state from Jordan to the sea, which is the explicit aim of, for instance, Hamas.

    Corbyn’s view of Israel and the language he uses is, whether he realises it or not, exterminatory in its aims and consequences. If he really believes what he says, then he should be arguing that Israel has no right to exist. It is certainly what some of his supporters believe and what many of his Palestinian associates believe. The threat to Jewry if Britain is led by such a man is the risk that it becomes the first Western country to call for Israel no longer to exist. And then what? What happens to the Jews living there, born there?

    And that is why those two examples in the IHRA code which Labour does not want to have matter. Two of them are about criticising Israel in terms not used about other countries and using Nazi terminology. There are plenty of countries which are far worse in terms of policies, treatment of minorities etc than Israel - Burma or Saudi Arabia for instance or even Iran. And yet there is no great campaign to boycott them or call them Nazi-like or say that they should be wiped from the face of the earth. There is clearly a double standard being applied to Jews and Israel.

    And this is no accident. If you want to make it easy - even right - to remove a people or a country you first dehumanise them and make them out to be uniquely evil. Those who want to do this to Israel and Jews have learnt the lesson well from the Nazi playbook.
  • notmenotme Posts: 2,608
    IanB2 said:

    A well argued lead, except that I don't really buy the left-success envy point. Surely Labour's foreign policy outlook, the left's need to identify with 'the oppressed' around the world, and its intention to capture the UK's growing muslim community as an interest group are far more relevant?

    I don’t know, conversations can slip down the rabbit hole quite quickly when you start talking of a group of rich powerful people controling the world...

  • CD13CD13 Posts: 4,644
    edited August 4
    I'm astonished that Labour keep picking at this scab.

    Talking to a Jezzarite last night, he was blaming it all on the right wing media.

    "But you're the ones keeping it going," I said. "Why didn't you just accept the International definition of anti-Semitism?"

    "I don't know," he admitted, and shook his head.

    To me, it's a case of hypocrisy. Labour are generally anti-racist, but some of them have a blind spot when it comes Israel and Jewish people. The defence of what-aboutery misses the point.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 32,445

    One problem for Corbyn might be that some of (let's say) his associates with have been rather free in comparing Israeli policies with Nazi Germany, which did not used to be considered antisemitic but now is, following the 2016 IHRA definition. It is notable that Labour weakened (at best) this point in its own rules. And most of these people are on the record of drawing these parallels (often on Youtube). So if Labour did accept this is automatically antisemitism, the purge would need to begin immediately. There could be no statute of limitations.

    Of course, that might not be a bad thing. And even if it is, to be cynical about politics, it may be a price worth paying: lose a few hot-heads, some of whom no doubt are antisemitic by any definition, in order to put this to bed.

    There are of course those in the Conservative Party who like to use the N-word (Nazi) in the same way, except there it is to criticise Germany or the EU, so that's all right then.

    It isnt, although I'd hope those who do that at least think it is an extreme analogy and not a directly applicable comparison as some seem to with Israel.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 32,445
    Dura_Ace said:

    Doesn’t seem to be any Brexiters left who claim that Brexit is going well.

    Probably time to just ditch it, laugh it off and forget it ever happened. Britain needs to get on with its life.

    Discourse does seem to have retreated to the realm of the subjunctive in which Brexit could have gone well.
    Ha. It's a fair cop.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 8,806
    edited August 4
    kle4 said:

    One problem for Corbyn might be that some of (let's say) his associates with have been rather free in comparing Israeli policies with Nazi Germany, which did not used to be considered antisemitic but now is, following the 2016 IHRA definition. It is notable that Labour weakened (at best) this point in its own rules. And most of these people are on the record of drawing these parallels (often on Youtube). So if Labour did accept this is automatically antisemitism, the purge would need to begin immediately. There could be no statute of limitations.

    Of course, that might not be a bad thing. And even if it is, to be cynical about politics, it may be a price worth paying: lose a few hot-heads, some of whom no doubt are antisemitic by any definition, in order to put this to bed.

    There are of course those in the Conservative Party who like to use the N-word (Nazi) in the same way, except there it is to criticise Germany or the EU, so that's all right then.

    It isnt, although I'd hope those who do that at least think it is an extreme analogy and not a directly applicable comparison as some seem to with Israel.
    As some seem to? Yes, some do, but that goes to the heart of Labour's problem. Labour says *some* using these parallels are antisemitic but the IHRA definition says *all* are. Labour would presumably claim that, as with the EU, the parallels are lazy rather than intentionally racist.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 22,835
    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:



    And I think that likely means a Brexit that is probably not a million miles away from the Chequers proposal.

    Barnier has already told her to stick Chequers up her hole hasn't he?
    No, he said it was 80% of the way there. Where he disagreed was the "customs partnership" element
    Same thing. She cannot sell her proposal, she certainly can't sell 80% of it plus a last 20% that is more favourable to the EU.
    All proposals are dead in the water because:

    - the Labour Party won't vote even for a deal they love
    - the ERG won't vote for deals which involve concessions to Brussels

    Which pretty much eliminates every possibility.

    So we'll crash out. Because of lack of preparation (and the precarious state of the UK economy), Project Fear will be vaguely accurate.

    The recession will be blamed on the government either not being pro-EU enough or being too anti-EU.

    Jeremy Corbyn will become PM.

    We'll look back fondly on the late 1970s as a time of sensible government.
  • notmenotme Posts: 2,608
    CD13 said:

    I'm astonished that Labour keep picking at this scab.

    Talking to a Jezzarite last night, he was blaming it all on the right wing media.

    "But you're the ones keeping it going," I said. "Why didn't you just accept the International definition of anti-Semitism?"

    "I don't know," he admitted, and shook his head.

    To me, it's a case of hypocrisy. Labour are generally anti-racist, but some of them have a blind spot when it comes Israel and Jewish people. The defence of what-aboutery misses the point.

    The blind spot is full on glaucoma with cataracts when the victim / oppressor narrative is not how they wish it to be.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 8,806
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:



    And I think that likely means a Brexit that is probably not a million miles away from the Chequers proposal.

    Barnier has already told her to stick Chequers up her hole hasn't he?
    No, he said it was 80% of the way there. Where he disagreed was the "customs partnership" element
    Same thing. She cannot sell her proposal, she certainly can't sell 80% of it plus a last 20% that is more favourable to the EU.
    All proposals are dead in the water because:

    - the Labour Party won't vote even for a deal they love
    - the ERG won't vote for deals which involve concessions to Brussels

    Which pretty much eliminates every possibility.

    So we'll crash out. Because of lack of preparation (and the precarious state of the UK economy), Project Fear will be vaguely accurate.

    The recession will be blamed on the government either not being pro-EU enough or being too anti-EU.

    Jeremy Corbyn will become PM.

    We'll look back fondly on the late 1970s as a time of sensible government.
    And the mid-70s as a time of well-run referendums.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 10,734
    On topic, I agree with Sean F that the weirdo comments should lead to expulsion, and I don't think our discipline process is fit for purpose in an organisation with hundreds of thousands of members - a single committee that meets once a month simply isn't adequate.

    I also think we've got as far as we can with the debate. We all agree on the IHLM definitions, we disagree on examples of exactly where the borderline is on criticism of Israel, and anyone not deeply involved will concede that there's a grey area in what's legitimate. If people want a private dialogue on that, fine.

    But neither side is going to simply concede the argument (intellectuals on both sides can't bear to back down however much more pragmatic colleagues would like them to), and I think Corbyn needs to move on and address the other issues which preoccupy most voters far more. The complaints about the couple of MPs should be dropped (whether they swore or not, we need to get over it), as should the complaint about Willsman, who lost his temper and apologised. I don't personally think that most voters think that Corbyn is anti-semitic (or pro-Ku Klux Klan, ffs), but people can make up their own minds. The impression that we're not interested in the issues of the day is far more damaging.

    On a less contentious question - now that realclearpolitics is semmingly malware-infected, what's the best site to look at US polling?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 32,445

    kle4 said:

    One problem for Corbyn might be that some of (let's say) his associates with have been rather free in comparing Israeli policies with Nazi Germany, which did not used to be considered antisemitic but now is, following the 2016 IHRA definition. It is notable that Labour weakened (at best) this point in its own rules. And most of these people are on the record of drawing these parallels (often on Youtube). So if Labour did accept this is automatically antisemitism, the purge would need to begin immediately. There could be no statute of limitations.

    Of course, that might not be a bad thing. And even if it is, to be cynical about politics, it may be a price worth paying: lose a few hot-heads, some of whom no doubt are antisemitic by any definition, in order to put this to bed.

    There are of course those in the Conservative Party who like to use the N-word (Nazi) in the same way, except there it is to criticise Germany or the EU, so that's all right then.

    It isnt, although I'd hope those who do that at least think it is an extreme analogy and not a directly applicable comparison as some seem to with Israel.
    As some seem to? Yes, some do, but that goes to the heart of Labour's problem. Labour says *some* using these parallels are antisemitic but the IHRA definition says *all* are. Labour would presumably claim that, as with the EU, the parallels are lazy rather than intentionally racist.
    I wasn't downplaying the problem. I said some as not everybody uses those parallels at all
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 10,567

    A very fine article that brilliantly captures the despair so many of my Jewish friends feel. I was at William Ellis, just across Hampstead Heath from UCS, probably a few years before SeanF attended. It also had a strong Jewish contingent drawn from the same kind of demographic he describes. It’s extraordinary to think that Labour has managed to alienate such people.

    A very good article Sean. Thank you. My brother was at St Anthony’s - a Catholic school where about a third of the pupils were Jewish, the same at my school - South Hampstead. He describes very well the sorts of pupils who attended, their background and general views. We were all at these schools probably around the same time, give or take a few years.

    My own father, an Irish immigrant, was a Labour voter, partly because of his wartime experiences, partly his own views (he was friends with one of the leading lights behind Amnesty International) and partly because he disliked the Tory approach to Northern Ireland. He loathed anti-semitism having seen its consequences close up - from his time in Germany before the war and from working as a doctor in Belsen after its liberation.

    The Labour party he supported was a world away from the despicable mess it is now - a mixture of Respect, the SWP and the BNP. In its language, its intolerance, its admiration of strongmen leaders around the world, its cult-like belief in its leader, its paranoia about conspiracies against it, it is, frankly, more like the fascists it routinely criticises than the liberal anti-racist party it used to be.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 44,245
    Mr. CD13, there's something fantastically blind about that.

    A line in Sir Edric's Kingdom:
    "... Honestly, Edric. That’s the sort of casual racism I’d expect from an elf.”
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 1,884
    CD13 said:



    "But you're the ones keeping it going," I said. "Why didn't you just accept the International definition of anti-Semitism?"

    "I don't know," he admitted, and shook his head.

    It's quite obvious why they won't accept the International Hot Rod Association definition: if they do then people are going to search through decade's worth of Corbyn's beard muffled meditations on the subject to find numerous examples of times the fucking idiot has said things that breach that definition.

    I have now reversed my thinking on this matter and now believe it to be a case of 'the worse the better' for JC. One of his few political virtues is his unalloyed status as an outsider. When he looks beset on all sides that burnishes his outsider credentials and heightens the Jonestown grade intensity of the Momentum experience.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 32,445
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:



    And I think that likely means a Brexit that is probably not a million miles away from the Chequers proposal.

    Barnier has already told her to stick Chequers up her hole hasn't he?
    No, he said it was 80% of the way there. Where he disagreed was the "customs partnership" element
    Same thing. She cannot sell her proposal, she certainly can't sell 80% of it plus a last 20% that is more favourable to the EU.
    All proposals are dead in the water because:

    - the Labour Party won't vote even for a deal they love
    - the ERG won't vote for deals which involve concessions to Brussels

    Which pretty much eliminates every possibility.

    So we'll crash out. Because of lack of preparation (and the precarious state of the UK economy), Project Fear will be vaguely accurate.

    The recession will be blamed on the government either not being pro-EU enough or being too anti-EU.

    Jeremy Corbyn will become PM.
    Absolutely correct.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 18,613
    On the face of it, Labour had a good slogan with "For the many, not the few".

    Great slogan - if you consider the few to be rich Tory bankers. But Labour has sought to be a colalition of minorities. Those smaller groups who singly don't have much of a voice, but are stronger under the Labour umbrella. "There is power in a union."

    But under Corbyn they've broken that contract. It's now impossible to see that slogan and not read "For the many, not the Jew".
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 8,806

    On a less contentious question - now that realclearpolitics is semmingly malware-infected, what's the best site to look at US polling?

    Are you sure the malware problem is not at your end or in your browser rather than at rcp itself? It might be an advertising problem, I suppose. Admittedly, I've only spent 30 seconds there.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 43,711
    edited August 4
    50 years ago the Jewish vote was largely Labour, now it is overwhelmingly Tory.

    In 2017 63% of Jewish voters voted Tory, well above the 42% who voted Tory nationally and just 26% voted Labour

    http://www.brin.ac.uk/2017/religious-affiliation-and-party-choice-at-the-2017-general-election/
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 4,354
    Fascinating piece, SeanF. You and I may be poles apart politically but I have always admired you for your clarity, consistency, honesty and intelligence. Not many posters get the PtP stamp of approval but this header gives me an opportunity to award it publicly. Try not to be embarrassed.


    There's a lot I could say about this but I want to confine myself to a few personal comments (not least because I want to go swimming). The short version is that I agree with most of what you write here.

    Those who have time for the longer version, see below.....
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 4,644
    Mr JohnL,

    "the purge would need to begin immediately. There could be no statute of limitations."

    The longer this goes on, the more I'm coming to that conclusion. They do have something to hide, and the natural reaction of any large organisation is to shelter the bad eggs so as to avoid reputational damage. The Catholic Church with the paedophile priests, the Aid Agencies with the sex claims for instance.

    It's a short-sighted, knee-jerk reaction.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 10,734

    On a less contentious question - now that realclearpolitics is semmingly malware-infected, what's the best site to look at US polling?

    Are you sure the malware problem is not at your end or in your browser rather than at rcp itself? It might be an advertising problem, I suppose. Admittedly, I've only spent 30 seconds there.
    I don't know, but Malwarebytes and Defender say I'm clean, and I only get the problem at that site. Hard to be sure!
  • RogerRoger Posts: 9,477
    Very readable Sean but complee nonsense. I was really into it until I got to the part about drinking the blood of children. Anyone with even the scantest knowledge of Jewish dietry laws would know that Jews won't comsume the blood of anything let alone children! I daresay if you trawl the net for long enough you'll find anything you're looking for but to suggest this has anything to do with the labour Party is batty

    I fear Sean (no pun intended) your blue petticoat is showing.

  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 10,567
    Dura_Ace said:

    CD13 said:



    "But you're the ones keeping it going," I said. "Why didn't you just accept the International definition of anti-Semitism?"

    "I don't know," he admitted, and shook his head.

    It's quite obvious why they won't accept the International Hot Rod Association definition: if they do then people are going to search through decade's worth of Corbyn's beard muffled meditations on the subject to find numerous examples of times the fucking idiot has said things that breach that definition.

    I have now reversed my thinking on this matter and now believe it to be a case of 'the worse the better' for JC. One of his few political virtues is his unalloyed status as an outsider. When he looks beset on all sides that burnishes his outsider credentials and heightens the Jonestown grade intensity of the Momentum experience.
    Cynically using Jews who complain about his views as scapegoats .... ? Surely not. https://capx.co/anti-semitism-is-tightening-corbyns-grip-on-the-labour-party/
  • JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,043
    edited August 4
    Dreadfully cynical, self-serving and nonsense article from one of this site's premium extreme right-wing nutcases (from a choice of many!). I know Mike has a psychotic blind-spot of his own when it comes to Corbyn but I'm very surprised this has made it above the line when it would be shameful enough below it.

    Firstly, it is now bordering on anti-semitism to have exaggerated Labour's (minute - no larger than society at
    large) problem with anti-semitism and compare it with the Nazis (thereby trasducing the horror of those who actually went through the Holocaust), and those using it as a political weapon will be judged dreadfully by history.

    The series of examples you gave were either minor activists or councillors who were instantly suspended as soon as any dodgy comments to light, people for whom there is no evidence they are even in the Labour Party (the infamous facebook message), or hover around extremely contentious issues such the distinction between criticism of Israel and antisemitism.

    Many of these things happened before Corbyn was even leader. No party can be expected to be responsible for the handful of nutters you'll find amongst any organisation whose membership runs into the hundreds of thousands, it can only be expected to deal with them if bad behaviour comes to light.

    Which it has, in the most egregious of the above cases.

    What has to be resisted tooth and nail are any attempts to smother criticism of Israel, when every year its policies and behaviour are becoming more and more racist, violent and extreme - which is what the ridiculously overblown and co-ordinated attacks from those strange and fervently pro-Israel vanguards of the discredited Westminster bubble - right-wing pro-war Labour MPs, the right-wing media, self-appointed hard-right Jewish groups (that do not in any way represent all jews) - amount to. All of the supposed contentious points in the IHRA definition and 99% of the controversial statements that are supposed to have constituted examples of anti-semitism relate to Israel.

    The vast majority of the UK population either have a negative opinion or none at all about Israel, and it seems the tiny proportion who have a positive view are concentrated in our dreadfully discredited establishment media and political classes. Why? Obviously Israel plays a key part in ensuring that the regional interests of our country's very wealthy elite are kept intact, and also the subservience of our country's establishment to the US military industrial complex and its needs (for whom Israel is also seen as a key attack dog in the area).

    But also I think the vile right wing establishment and their pathetic wannabes in this country see a place built on racial supremacy, extreme nationalism and violent suppression of perceived untermensch and see a model of a society they'd really love to be able to emulate.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 9,477
    edited August 4
    Cyclefree said:



    It is perfectly possible to criticise Israel without crossing the line into anti-Semitism. Which makes me wonder why people are not doing so ?

    Why? If your aim is the destruction of Israel, its removal from the map - and think how unusual an aim that is, more new countries having been created since WW2 than lost - then it is essential to have the world think of it as uniquely evil.

    So one of the reasons why those who do not want Israel to exist are so keen to describe it as a Nazi or Nazi-like state is because that makes it so much easier to justify its destruction, its removal from the world scene. After all, who wouldn’t want to stop another Nazi state arising? Ditto with the comparisons with apartheid South Africa.

    So the use of Nazi comparisons is not just people getting overheated or being anti-semitic or even being enthusiastically pro-Palestinian. It is a necessary part of an agenda which has as its logical end point the extermination of the state of Israel. Such language is not necessary (and arguably deeply unhelpful) if your aim is to get Israel to change its policies for the better. But it is absolutely essential if you want Israel to disappear and be replaced by a Palestinian state from Jordan to the sea, which is the explicit aim of, for instance, Hamas.

    Corbyn’s view of Israel and the language he uses is, whether he realises it or not, exterminatory in its aims and consequences. If he really believes what he says, then he should be arguing that Israel has no right to exist. It is certainly what some of his supporters believe and what many of his Palestinian associates believe. The threat to Jewry if Britain is led by such a man is the risk that it becomes the first Western country to call for Israel no longer to exist. And then what? What happens to the Jews living there, born there?

    And that is why those two examples in the IHRA code which Labour does not want to have matter. Two of them are about criticising Israel in terms not used about other countries and using Nazi terminology. There are plenty of countries which are far worse in terms of policies, treatment of minorities etc than Israel - Burma or Saudi Arabia for instance or even Iran. And yet there is no great campaign to boycott them or call them Nazi-like or say that they should be wiped from the face of the earth. There is clearly a double standard being applied to Jews and Israel.

    And this is no accident. If you want to make it easy - even right - to remove a people or a country you first dehumanise them and make them out to be uniquely evil. Those who want to do this to Israel and Jews have learnt the lesson well from the Nazi playbook.
    Have you ever been to Israel?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 10,567
    Roger said:

    Very readable Sean but complee nonsense. I was really into it until I got to the part about drinking the blood of children. Anyone with even the scantest knowledge of Jewish dietry laws would know that Jews won't comsume the blood of anything let alone children! I daresay if you trawl the net for long enough you'll find anything you're looking for but to suggest this has anything to do with the labour Party is batty

    I fear Sean (no pun intended) your blue petticoat is showing.

    Perhaps you are unaware of the now suspended Labour councillor who made exactly that suggestion about Jews, based on his misunderstanding (I assume) about circumcision.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 10,567
    Roger said:

    Cyclefree said:



    It is perfectly possible to criticise Israel without crossing the line into anti-Semitism. Which makes me wonder why people are not doing so ?

    Why? If your aim is the destruction of Israel, its removal from the map - and think how unusual an aim that is, more new countries having been created since WW2 than lost - then it is essential to have the world think of it as uniquely evil.

    So one of the reasons why those who do not want Israel to exist are so keen to describe it as a Nazi or Nazi-like state is because that makes it so much easier to justify its destruction, its removal from the world scene. After all, who wouldn’t want to stop another Nazi state arising? Ditto with the comparisons with apartheid South Africa.

    So the use of Nazi comparisons is not just people getting overheated or being anti-semitic or even being enthusiastically pro-Palestinian. It is a necessary part of an agenda which has as its logical end point the extermination of the state of Israel. Such language is not necessary (and arguably deeply unhelpful) if your aim is to get Israel to change its policies for the better. But it is absolutely essential if you want Israel to disappear and be replaced by a Palestinian state from Jordan to the sea, which is the explicit aim of, for instance, Hamas.

    Corbyn’s view of Israel and the language he uses is, whether he realises it or not, exterminatory in its aims and consequences. If he really believes what he says, then he should be arguing that Israel has no right to exist. It is certainly what some of his supporters believe and what many of his Palestinian associates believe. The threat to Jewry if Britain is led by such a man is the risk that it becomes the first Western country to call for Israel no longer to exist. And then what? What happens to the Jews living there, born there?

    And that is why those two examples in the IHRA code which Labour does not want to have matter. Two of them are about criticising Israel in terms not used about other countries and using Nazi terminology. There are plenty of countries which are far worse in terms of policies, treatment of minorities etc than Israel - Burma or Saudi Arabia for instance or even Iran. And yet there is no great campaign to boycott them or call them Nazi-like or say that they should be wiped from the face of the earth. There is clearly a double standard being applied to Jews and Israel.

    And this is no accident. If you want to make it easy - even right - to remove a people or a country you first dehumanise them and make them out to be uniquely evil. Those who want to do this to Israel and Jews have learnt the lesson well from the Nazi playbook.
    Have you ever been to Israel?
    Yes.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 43,711
    edited August 4
    JWisemann said:

    Dreadfully cynical, self-serving and nonsense article from one of this site's premium extreme right-wing nutcases (from a choice of many!). I know Mike has a psychotic blind-spot of his own when it comes to Corbyn but I'm very surprised this has made it above the line when it would be shameful enough below it.

    Firstly, it is now bordering on anti-semitism to have exaggerated Labour's (minute - no larger than society at
    large) problem with anti-semitism and compare it with the Nazis (thereby trasducing the horror of those who actually went through the Holocaust), and those using it as a political weapon will be judged dreadfully by history.

    The series of examples you gave were either minor activists or councillors who were instantly suspended as soon as any dodgy comments to light, people for whom there is no evidence they are even in the Labour Party (the infamous facebook message), or hover around extremely contentious issues such the distinction between criticism of Israel and antisemitism.

    Many of these things happened before Corbyn was even leader. No party can be expected to be responsible for the handful of nutters you'll find amongst any organisation whose membership runs into the hundreds of thousands, it can only be expected to deal with them if bad behaviour comes to light.

    Which it has, in the most egregious of the above cases.

    What has to be resisted tooth and nail are any attempts to smother criticism of Israel, when every year its policies and behaviour are becoming more and more examples of anti-semitism relate to Israel.

    The vast majority of the UK population either have a negative opinion or none at all about Israel, and it seems the tiny proportion who have a positive view are concentrated in our dreadfully discredited establishment media and political classes. Why? Obviously Israel plays a key part in ensuring that the regional interests of our country's very wealthy elite are kept intact, and also the subservience of our country's establishment to the US military industrial complex and its needs (for whom Israel is also seen as a key attack dog in the area).

    But also I think the vile right wing establishment and their pathetic wannabes in this country see a place built on racial supremacy, extreme nationalism and violent suppression of perceived untermensch and see a model of a society they'd really love to be able to emulate.

    50% of Britons see Israel as an ally and only 25% as an enemy according to this 2016 Yougov poll.

    By contrast only 37% see Saudi Arabia as an ally and 39% as an enemy and just 26% see Iran as an ally and 48% as an enemy

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/01/10/saudi-arabia-relations-and-right/?
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,625
    JWisemann said:

    Dreadfully cynical, self-serving and nonsense article from one of this site's premium extreme right-wing nutcases (from a choice of many!). I know Mike has a psychotic blind-spot of his own when it comes to Corbyn but I'm very surprised this has made it above the line when it would be shameful enough below it.

    Firstly, it is now bordering on anti-semitism to have exaggerated Labour's (minute - no larger than society at
    large) problem with anti-semitism and compare it with the Nazis (thereby trasducing the horror of those who actually went through the Holocaust), and those using it as a political weapon will be judged dreadfully by history.

    The series of examples you gave were either minor activists or councillors who were instantly suspended as soon as any dodgy comments to light, people for whom there is no evidence they are even in the Labour Party (the infamous facebook message), or hover around extremely contentious issues such the distinction between criticism of Israel and antisemitism.

    Many of these things happened before Corbyn was even leader. No party can be expected to be responsible for the handful of nutters you'll find amongst any organisation whose membership runs into the hundreds of thousands, it can only be expected to deal with them if bad behaviour comes to light.

    Which it has, in the most egregious of the above cases.

    What has to be resisted tooth and nail are any attempts to smother criticism of Israel, when every year its policies and behaviour are becoming more and more racist, violent and extreme - which is what the ridiculously overblown and co-ordinated attacks from those strange and fervently pro-Israel vanguards of the discredited Westminster bubble - right-wing pro-war Labour MPs, the right-wing media, self-appointed hard-right Jewish groups (that do not in any way represent all jews) - amount to. All of the supposed contentious points in the IHRA definition and 99% of the controversial statements that are supposed to have constituted examples of anti-semitism relate to Israel.


    But also I think the vile right wing establishment and their pathetic wannabes in this country see a place built on racial supremacy, extreme nationalism and violent suppression of perceived untermensch and see a model of a society they'd really love to be able to emulate.

    Lol

    When it comes to blind spots, you should take a look in the mirror..
  • archer101auarcher101au Posts: 812
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:



    And I think that likely means a Brexit that is probably not a million miles away from the Chequers proposal.

    Barnier has already told her to stick Chequers up her hole hasn't he?
    No, he said it was 80% of the way there. Where he disagreed was the "customs partnership" element
    Same thing. She cannot sell her proposal, she certainly can't sell 80% of it plus a last 20% that is more favourable to the EU.
    All proposals are dead in the water because:

    - the Labour Party won't vote even for a deal they love
    - the ERG won't vote for deals which involve concessions to Brussels

    Which pretty much eliminates every possibility.

    So we'll crash out. Because of lack of preparation (and the precarious state of the UK economy), Project Fear will be vaguely accurate.

    The recession will be blamed on the government either not being pro-EU enough or being too anti-EU.

    Jeremy Corbyn will become PM.

    We'll look back fondly on the late 1970s as a time of sensible government.
    Ok well that is the price that Tories will pay and inflict on the country as a result of their failure to honour the referendum.

    A CETA FTA would of course make it through the Commons - shame May is not prepared to negotiate one.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 18,613
    JWisemann said:

    But also I think the vile right wing establishment and their pathetic wannabes in this country see a place built on racial supremacy, extreme nationalism and violent suppression of perceived untermensch and see a model of a society they'd really love to be able to emulate.

    You are absolutely barking mad.

    Corbyn's Labour is a great home for you.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 10,567

    On topic, I agree with Sean F that the weirdo comments should lead to expulsion, and I don't think our discipline process is fit for purpose in an organisation with hundreds of thousands of members - a single committee that meets once a month simply isn't adequate.

    I also think we've got as far as we can with the debate. We all agree on the IHLM definitions, we disagree on examples of exactly where the borderline is on criticism of Israel, and anyone not deeply involved will concede that there's a grey area in what's legitimate. If people want a private dialogue on that, fine.

    But neither side is going to simply concede the argument (intellectuals on both sides can't bear to back down however much more pragmatic colleagues would like them to), and I think Corbyn needs to move on and address the other issues which preoccupy most voters far more. The complaints about the couple of MPs should be dropped (whether they swore or not, we need to get over it), as should the complaint about Willsman, who lost his temper and apologised. I don't personally think that most voters think that Corbyn is anti-semitic (or pro-Ku Klux Klan, ffs), but people can make up their own minds. The impression that we're not interested in the issues of the day is far more damaging.

    So how did the American Neo-Nazi pro-KKK man happen to be at that conference, then, Nick? Was he a tourist who just happened to wander onto the Parliamentary estate and into the conference? Or did he need a ticket and permission (from whom? The organisers, the sponsors?)? And if he was not booked as a speaker why was he allowed to speak? Why did no-one stop him? After all Corbyn actively involved the police to eject Jewish people who wanted to say things he did not want to hear. But no action was taken against this individual.

    It is curious how these platform malfunctions where Jeremy unaccountably finds himself next to all sorts of horrible people whose views he apparently does not share never happen with people who are pro-Israeli or anti-Assad or anti-Putin, for instance.

    You have a curious blind eye about your leader, Nick, I’m afraid. You believe what you want to believe and ignore all facts to the contrary. It is very common for people to do this. It is why fraudsters get away with it for so long. It is why evil people in politics can get away with it.

    Maybe your analysis of what should happen is right - Labour will ignore this and talk about of stuff of more interest to most voters. And it may well be electorally successful. But IMO taking good policies from evil people - and I think this issue has shown there is something close to evil at the heart of the Labour leadership - is a Faustian pact which will harm those who sign up to it. Having Corbyn as PM pf this country will cause it great moral harm. Count me out. I will only listen to Labour again when it finds its moral compass again.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 18,613
    The Times has a piece saying that the Stamp Duty changes put through by Osborne when Chancellor have actually reduced the revenue from high-end properties.

    Greatest. Chancellor. Ever.....
  • JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,043
    HYUFD said:

    JWisemann said:

    Dreadfully cynical, self-serving and nonsense article from one of this site's premium extreme right-wing nutcases (from a choice of many!). I know Mike has a psychotic blind-spot of his own when it comes to Corbyn but I'm very surprised this has made it above the line when it would be shameful enough below it.



    The series of examples you gave were either minor activists or councillors who were instantly suspended as soon as any dodgy comments to light, people for whom there is no evidence they are even in the Labour Party (the infamous facebook message), or hover around extremely contentious issues such the distinction between criticism of Israel and antisemitism.

    Many of these things happened before Corbyn was even leader. No party can be expected to be responsible for the handful of nutters you'll find amongst any organisation whose membership runs into the hundreds of thousands, it can only be expected to deal with them if bad behaviour comes to light.

    Which it has, in the most egregious of the above cases.

    What has to be resisted tooth and nail are any attempts to smother criticism of Israel, when every year its policies and behaviour are becoming more and more examples of anti-semitism relate to Israel.

    The vast majority of the UK population either have a negative opinion or none at all about Israel, and it seems the tiny proportion who have a positive view are concentrated in our dreadfully discredited establishment media and political classes. Why? Obviously Israel plays a key part in ensuring that the regional interests of our country's very wealthy elite are kept intact, and also the subservience of our country's establishment to the US military industrial complex and its needs (for whom Israel is also seen as a key attack dog in the area).

    But also I think the vile right wing establishment and their pathetic wannabes in this country see a place built on racial supremacy, extreme nationalism and violent suppression of perceived untermensch and see a model of a society they'd really love to be able to emulate.

    50% of Britons see Israel as an ally and only 25% as an enemy according to this 2016 Yougov poll.

    By contrast only 37% see Saudi Arabia as an ally and 39% as an enemy and just 26% see Iran as an ally and 48% as an enemy

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/01/10/saudi-arabia-relations-and-right/?
    Very different question though isn't it. I'd probably say Israel was an 'ally' of the UK, because officially they are. I would still be amongst the 72% who said they had unfavourable view of Israel in the BBC World Service's Country Ratings Polls though.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 10,567
    Anyway, after all the rain, my part of the Lake District is looking gorgeous again: the air is fresh, the sky blue, butterflies are in the garden and the sun is shining. Far too nice a day to be inside.

    Have a great day all.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 1,650
    Any ‘senior Tories’ predicting May’s deposition yet today?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 18,613
    Cyclefree said:



    So how did the American Neo-Nazi pro-KKK man happen to be at that conference, then, Nick? Was he a tourist who just happened to wander onto the Parliamentary estate and into the conference? Or did he need a ticket and permission (from whom? The organisers, the sponsors?)? And if he was not booked as a speaker why was he allowed to speak? Why did no-one stop him? After all Corbyn actively involved the police to eject Jewish people who wanted to say things he did not want to hear. But no action was taken against this individual.

    It is curious how these platform malfunctions where Jeremy unaccountably finds himself next to all sorts of horrible people whose views he apparently does not share never happen with people who are pro-Israeli or anti-Assad or anti-Putin, for instance.

    You have a curious blind eye about your leader, Nick, I’m afraid. You believe what you want to believe and ignore all facts to the contrary. It is very common for people to do this. It is why fraudsters get away with it for so long. It is why evil people in politics can get away with it.

    Maybe your analysis of what should happen is right - Labour will ignore this and talk about of stuff of more interest to most voters. And it may well be electorally successful. But IMO taking good policies from evil people - and I think this issue has shown there is something close to evil at the heart of the Labour leadership - is a Faustian pact which will harm those who sign up to it. Having Corbyn as PM pf this country will cause it great moral harm. Count me out. I will only listen to Labour again when it finds its moral compass again.

    Theresa May Platform Malfunction: letters fall off the wall behind her

    Jeremy Corbyn Platform Malfunction: a Neo-Nazi pro-KKK guy gets up to speak.....
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 11,980

    On the face of it, Labour had a good slogan with "For the many, not the few".

    Great slogan - if you consider the few to be rich Tory bankers. But Labour has sought to be a colalition of minorities. Those smaller groups who singly don't have much of a voice, but are stronger under the Labour umbrella. "There is power in a union."

    But under Corbyn they've broken that contract. It's now impossible to see that slogan and not read "For the many, not the Jew".

    It's certainly impossible for PB Tories not to endlessly repeat the "For the many, not the Jew" crack as if it were newly coined, Wildean wit.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 43,711
    edited August 4
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:



    And I think that likely means a Brexit that is probably not a million miles away from the Chequers proposal.

    Barnier has already told her to stick Chequers up her hole hasn't he?
    No, he said it was 80% of the way there. Where he disagreed was the "customs partnership" element
    Same thing. She cannot sell her proposal, she certainly can't sell 80% of it plus a last 20% that is more favourable to the EU.
    All proposals are dead in the water because:

    - the Labour Party won't vote even for a deal they love
    - the ERG won't vote for deals which involve concessions to Brussels

    Which pretty much eliminates every possibility.

    So we'll crash out. Because of lack of preparation (and the precarious state of the UK economy), Project Fear will be vaguely accurate.

    The recession will be blamed on the government either not being pro-EU enough or being too anti-EU.

    Jeremy Corbyn will become PM.

    We'll look back fondly on the late 1970s as a time of sensible government.
    No May is going to cave to the EU for a Chequers Plus Deal ie BINO and in the single market and customs union in all but name post Brexit next March in order to resolve the Irish border issue to Barnier' s satisfaction and get a withdrawal agreement and transition period. That will pass Parliament with enough Tory and Umunnaite Labour and LD and SNP votes.

    However the Tories will be trounced at next May's local elections as a result with many Leaver Tories staying home or voting for UKIP.

    May will then be likely replaced by an anti Chequers Deal Tory before the next general election, probably Boris, unless by some miracle she gets a FTA with the EU by December 2020 when the transition period is due to end, as without holding the 2017 Tory coalition and winning back voters from UKIP there is no way the Tories can beat Corbyn Labour.

    Of course a Corbyn Labour government would be ideal to revive the Tories under a hard Brexit leader if a pro Chequers Deal candidate lost to Corbyn.
    Indeed arguably 2022 like 1992 would be a good election for the Tories to lose. Heseltine could have beaten Kinnock in 1997, as Corbyn may be beatable in 2027, by contrast after winning in 1992 the Tories lost to Blair in 1997 by a landslide and it was 13 years before the Tories got back to power in 2010 and 18 years before they won another majority in 2015
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 4,354
    SeanF

    My own Alma Mater was Hackney Downs Grammar School (formerly the Grocers Company.) We didn't have a Jeremy Bentham but we did nurture Harold Pinter and Michael Caine. (Not a lot of people know that.)

    When I started there in 1960 it had a policy of admitting 50% Jews, 50% Gentiles. For the most part, we neither knew nor cared who was Jewish and who was not. Anti-semitism was non-existent. It just wouldn't have been tolerated.

    Due I think to their work ethic and family values, the Jewish boys tended to cluster more in the Alpha streams. In my class of 32, there were just 6 gentiles. As a result most of my closest friends were Jewish, without me particularly seeking them out or being strongly aware if it.

    We weren't much into politics but it was nevertheless obvious that as a group the Jewish boys tended to be leftish and it was easy to see why this should be so. The impression that 'Jews tend to be Labour' has endured with me throughout my life.

    And now I am being asked to question it. Oi vey.

    Well, I'm not sure. I mistrust social media. The Jews are a very heterogeneous group. You wouldn't mistake my bacon-eating buddies from Hackney Downs with the Hasidic or Ashkenazy Jews, who my mates regularly ridiculed (Kosher Cowboys being one the more repeatable terms of derision.) Very many modern, civilized, educated Jews are staunch Conservatives. Why shouldn't they be? Many of the characteristics of happy, successful Jewish families are entirely consistent with Conservative values. So what's not to like?

    Of course it would be very helpful for the Conservative Party if Labour could be tarred with the brush of anti-semitism. Thinks of the votes, my boy! It wouldn't just dissuade a few undecideds, it would even rob Labour of the votes of people like me for whom anti-Semitism and other forms of racism are anathema. I'll need some persuading however that it is endemic. All Parties have their hotheads, airheads and assholes and the current LP certainly has its share.....but an Anti-Semitic Party?

    Let's not confuse anti-Semitism with anti-Israel. The former is unacceptable, the latter merely unwise. And anti-Netanyahu? Even I would maybe go along with that. Anti-Trump? Count me in.

    Seems to me the Labour Party has to make it clear just exactly where it stands. It is an indictment of the current leadership that one should even feel the need to ask the question. It matters though, very much. There is a real possibility that the Conservative Party will crash and burn in a post-Brexit inferno. A Labour Government filling the political void is a probable consequence.

    I don't want an Anti-Semitic Government. That would be worse than an Anti-EU one, which is saying something. Labour ought to make it clear that offers neither.

    Over to you, Jeremy.


  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 43,711
    JWisemann said:

    HYUFD said:

    JWisemann said:

    Dreadfully cynical, self-serving and nonsense article from one of this site's premium extreme right-wing nutcases (from a choice of many!). I know Mike has a psychotic blind-spot of his own when it comes to Corbyn but I'm very surprised this has made it above the line when it would be shameful enough below it.



    The series of examples you gave were either minor activists or councillors who were instantly suspended as soon as any dodgy comments to light, people for whom there is no evidence they are even in the Labour Party (the infamous facebook message), or hover around extremely contentious issues such the distinction between criticism of Israel and antisemitism.

    Many of these things happened before Corbyn was even leader. No party can be expected to be responsible for the handful of nutters you'll find amongst any organisation whose membership runs into the hundreds of thousands, it can only be expected to deal with them if bad behaviour comes to light.

    Which it has, in the most egregious of the above cases.

    What has to be resisted tooth and nail are any attempts to smother criticism of Israel, when every year its policies and behaviour are becoming more and more examples of anti-semitism relate to Israel.

    The vast majority of the UK population either have a negative opinion or none at all about Israel, and it seems the tiny proportion who have a positive view are concentrated in our dreadfully discredited establishment media and political classes. Why? Obviously Israel plays a key part in ensuring that the regional interests of our country's very wealthy elite are kept intact, and also the subservience of our country's establishment to the US military industrial complex and its needs (for whom Israel is also seen as a key attack dog in the area).

    But also I think the vile right wing establishment and their pathetic wannabes in this country see a place built on racial supremacy, extreme nationalism and violent suppression of perceived untermensch and see a model of a society they'd really love to be able to emulate.

    50% of Britons see Israel as an ally and only 25% as an enemy according to this 2016 Yougov poll.

    By contrast only 37% see Saudi Arabia as an ally and 39% as an enemy and just 26% see Iran as an ally and 48% as an enemy

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/01/10/saudi-arabia-relations-and-right/?
    Very different question though isn't it. I'd probably say Israel was an 'ally' of the UK, because officially they are. I would still be amongst the 72% who said they had unfavourable view of Israel in the BBC World Service's Country Ratings Polls though.
    Even more have unfavourable views of Iran and Hamas and Assad's Syria who Corbynites hang around with
  • BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 949
    I see a dwindling band of leavers are clinging to the fact that 80% of the Withdrawal Agreement is settled.

    Would they be happy with a fire escape that went 80% of the way out, I wonder?
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 4,366

    SeanF

    My own Alma Mater was Hackney Downs Grammar School (formerly the Grocers Company.) We didn't have a Jeremy Bentham but we did nurture Harold Pinter and Michael Caine. (Not a lot of people know that.)

    When I started there in 1960 it had a policy of admitting 50% Jews, 50% Gentiles. For the most part, we neither knew nor cared who was Jewish and who was not. Anti-semitism was non-existent. It just wouldn't have been tolerated.

    Due I think to their work ethic and family values, the Jewish boys tended to cluster more in the Alpha streams. In my class of 32, there were just 6 gentiles. As a result most of my closest friends were Jewish, without me particularly seeking them out or being strongly aware if it.

    We weren't much into politics but it was nevertheless obvious that as a group the Jewish boys tended to be leftish and it was easy to see why this should be so. The impression that 'Jews tend to be Labour' has endured with me throughout my life.

    And now I am being asked to question it. Oi vey.

    Well, I'm not sure. I mistrust social media. The Jews are a very heterogeneous group. You wouldn't mistake my bacon-eating buddies from Hackney Downs with the Hasidic or Ashkenazy Jews, who my mates regularly ridiculed (Kosher Cowboys being one the more repeatable terms of derision.) Very many modern, civilized, educated Jews are staunch Conservatives. Why shouldn't they be? Many of the characteristics of happy, successful Jewish families are entirely consistent with Conservative values. So what's not to like?

    Of course it would be very helpful for the Conservative Party if Labour could be tarred with the brush of anti-semitism. Thinks of the votes, my boy! It wouldn't just dissuade a few undecideds, it would even rob Labour of the votes of people like me for whom anti-Semitism and other forms of racism are anathema. I'll need some persuading however that it is endemic. All Parties have their hotheads, airheads and assholes and the current LP certainly has its share.....but an Anti-Semitic Party?

    Let's not confuse anti-Semitism with anti-Israel. The former is unacceptable, the latter merely unwise. And anti-Netanyahu? Even I would maybe go along with that. Anti-Trump? Count me in.

    Seems to me the Labour Party has to make it clear just exactly where it stands. It is an indictment of the current leadership that one should even feel the need to ask the question. It matters though, very much. There is a real possibility that the Conservative Party will crash and burn in a post-Brexit inferno. A Labour Government filling the political void is a probable consequence.

    I don't want an Anti-Semitic Government. That would be worse than an Anti-EU one, which is saying something. Labour ought to make it clear that offers neither.

    Over to you, Jeremy.


    :+1:

    I agree with all of that.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 4,354
    Ok, off out now - swimming in the river Avon. Heaven.

    I'll check back tonite for any responses but if anyone wants to write to me direct on this subject feel free to use my email: [email protected]

    Have a good day everyone.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 18,613
    Anazina said:

    Any ‘senior Tories’ predicting May’s deposition yet today?

    Not before a good lunch, dear, not before a good lunch.....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 11,421

    I see a dwindling band of leavers are clinging to the fact that 80% of the Withdrawal Agreement is settled.

    Would they be happy with a fire escape that went 80% of the way out, I wonder?

    Can you please not come up with metaphors that could be used to suggest leaving the EU is like escaping from a burning building with no exits?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 11,550

    SeanF

    My own Alma Mater was Hackney Downs Grammar School (formerly the Grocers Company.) We didn't have a Jeremy Bentham but we did nurture Harold Pinter and Michael Caine. (Not a lot of people know that.)

    When I started there in 1960 it had a policy of admitting 50% Jews, 50% Gentiles. For the most part, we neither knew nor cared who was Jewish and who was not. Anti-semitism was non-existent. It just wouldn't have been tolerated.

    Due I think to their work ethic and family values, the Jewish boys tended to cluster more in the Alpha streams. In my class of 32, there were just 6 gentiles. As a result most of my closest friends were Jewish, without me particularly seeking them out or being strongly aware if it.

    We weren't much into politics but it was nevertheless obvious that as a group the Jewish boys tended to be leftish and it was easy to see why this should be so. The impression that 'Jews tend to be Labour' has endured with me throughout my life.

    And now I am being asked to question it. Oi vey.

    Of course it would be very helpful for the Conservative Party if Labour could be tarred with the brush of anti-semitism. Thinks of the votes, my boy! It wouldn't just dissuade a few undecideds, it would even rob Labour of the votes of people like me for whom anti-Semitism and other forms of racism are anathema. I'll need some persuading however that it is endemic. All Parties have their hotheads, airheads and assholes and the current LP certainly has its share.....but an Anti-Semitic Party?

    Let's not confuse anti-Semitism with anti-Israel. The former is unacceptable, the latter merely unwise. And anti-Netanyahu? Even I would maybe go along with that. Anti-Trump? Count me in.

    Seems to me the Labour Party has to make it clear just exactly where it stands. It is an indictment of the current leadership that one should even feel the need to ask the question. It matters though, very much. There is a real possibility that the Conservative Party will crash and burn in a post-Brexit inferno. A Labour Government filling the political void is a probable consequence.

    I don't want an Anti-Semitic Government. That would be worse than an Anti-EU one, which is saying something. Labour ought to make it clear that offers neither.

    Over to you, Jeremy.


    :+1:

    I agree with all of that.
    So do I.

    I went to a school with a significant proportion of Jewish boys. The only time it was really noticed was when A Level Hebrew clashed with A Level Zoology and along with the ten or so of us comparing and contrasting various unlikely pairs of animals and the like was someone sitting in the corner with his skull-cap on doing something clearly entirely different.
    I was friendly with some Jewish boys, less so with others, but that applied to any grouping you cared to name.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 18,613
    ydoethur said:

    I see a dwindling band of leavers are clinging to the fact that 80% of the Withdrawal Agreement is settled.

    Would they be happy with a fire escape that went 80% of the way out, I wonder?

    Can you please not come up with metaphors that could be used to suggest leaving the EU is like escaping from a burning building with no exits?
    If it is, can we sue the architects/builders?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 1,887
    edited August 4
    Numbers of Jewish Voters. I find myself agreeing with @Jezziah, of all people on a couple of points. I think:

    1 - Labour's recent fall in Jewish votes is quite minor ... they lost it some time ago. Perhaps this correlates with the rise of campaigns, which have been driven in part by certain Far Left controlled Trades Unions. PCS had a lot of controversy, for example.
    2 - There seems to be a further loss now, driven by the current debacle, and Corbyn's failure to address it except by circumlocution.
    3 - There may be something about the LD Jewish vote transferring to the Tories, given the LD Cheshire Cat performance over the last few years.

    From the BES, this page:
    http://www.britishelectionstudy.com/data/#.W2VzotJKjSF
    and a BRIN article.

    2005: Lab 26.9% Tory 47.4% LD: 16.8
    2010: Lab 20% Tory 44.1% LD: 22.6
    2017: Lab 26% Tory 63%

    I would need to create some reports to get the 2015 details. The only other long term data I have seen is Jewish Chronicle polls, and I assume Yougov have some that they could analyse (calling Anthony Wells...).

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 11,421
    edited August 4
    Meanwhile, this could potentially be even more embarrassing and disastrous for Labour:

    Carolyn Harris: Corbyn backs under fire MP in gay slur row
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-45055491

    That means Corbyn's team on equalities now includes one member who has previously been disciplined for calling for ethnic cleansing, and another who faces legal action for alleged assault and homophobic bullying. That's even before we get started on Rhoda Grant's links to a 'gay cure' charity.

    The reason this has the potential to be more damaging is because although the anti-Semitism is not well received by sensible people, it's ignored by the cult (as we can see from the Skawkbox acolyte on this thread) and a very large number of the people who take it derisively won't be voting Labour anyway.

    However if its clients among the liberal elites and the gay rights lobby conclude Labour is homophobic, all bets on number of seats at the next election are off. That's where Labour's support under Corbyn has been rock solid and their loss would be disastrous.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 1,887

    I see a dwindling band of leavers are clinging to the fact that 80% of the Withdrawal Agreement is settled.

    Would they be happy with a fire escape that went 80% of the way out, I wonder?

    If only 80% of the door opened to the outside, then yes .. I would duck the other 20%.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 15,442
    edited August 4
    ydoethur said:

    I see a dwindling band of leavers are clinging to the fact that 80% of the Withdrawal Agreement is settled.

    Would they be happy with a fire escape that went 80% of the way out, I wonder?

    Can you please not come up with metaphors that could be used to suggest leaving the EU is like escaping from a burning building with no exits?
    It's more like a burning oil platform out at sea. Jump in the water and you risk death; stay on the platform and risk becomes a certainty.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 43,711
    edited August 4
    MattW said:

    Numbers of Jewish Voters. I find myself agreeing with @Jezziah, of all people on a couple of points. I think:

    1 - Labour's recent fall in Jewish votes is quite minor ... they lost it some time ago. Perhaps this correlates with the rise of campaigns, which have been driven in part by certain Far Left controlled Trades Unions. PCS had a lot of controversy, for example.
    2 - There seems to be a further loss now, driven by the current debacle, and Corbyn's failure to address it except by circumlocution.
    3 - There may be something about the LD Jewish vote transferring to the Tories, given the LD Cheshire Cat performance over the last few years.

    From the BES, this page:
    http://www.britishelectionstudy.com/data/#.W2VzotJKjSF
    and a BRIN article.

    2005: Lab 26.9% Tory 47.4% LD: 16.8
    2010: Lab 20% Tory 44.1% LD: 22.6
    2017: Lab 26% Tory 63%

    I would need to create some reports to get the 2015 details. The only other long term data I have seen is Jewish Chronicle polls, and I assume Yougov have some that they could analyse (calling Anthony Wells...).

    Given 58% of Anglicans voted Tory but 63% of Jews voted Tory in 2017, perhaps we can now say the post Thatcher Tory Party is really Judaism at prayer rather than the Church of England at prayer as it was said to be in the 1950s and the Macmillan era.

    I expect you now would find far more Rabbis who vote Tory than Church of England Vicars certainly
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 20,587
    Both main parties are currently completely indifferent to the damage they are doing because it currently only disturbs out groups.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 1,887
    1995 Data:

    According to a report by the Institute for Jewish Policy Research, the voting intentions in 1995 were: Tory 29%, Labour 57%.
    http://www.jpr.org.uk/documents/Social and political attitudes of British Jews: Some key findings of the JPR survey.pdf

    So, within approximations, I say that the Labour loss of Jewish vote was substantially 10-20 years ago rather than 5-10.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 20,587
    Just imagine being a Jewish Remainer: treated as a traitor by supporters of both main parties.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 43,711
    edited August 4

    Just imagine being a Jewish Remainer: treated as a traitor by supporters of both main parties.

    And most probably a LD now
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 14,924

    Both main parties are currently completely indifferent to the damage they are doing because it currently only disturbs out groups.

    It is a mess and the damage needs to be mitigated as much as possible. Seems to be a wall of silence on Macron - May meeting which does indicate they are acting responsibly and I still maintain TM is the best hope for a deal.

    The leavers have shown how totally incompetent they are and as for Boris, the least said the better
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 43,711
    MattW said:

    1995 Data:

    According to a report by the Institute for Jewish Policy Research, the voting intentions in 1995 were: Tory 29%, Labour 57%.
    http://www.jpr.org.uk/documents/Social and political attitudes of British Jews: Some key findings of the JPR survey.pdf

    So, within approximations, I say that the Labour loss of Jewish vote was substantially 10-20 years ago rather than 5-10.

    Alan Sugar is the epitome of the Jewish vote, he was raised in a Labour family, switched to the Tories under Thatcher, then switched to Blair and New Labour then switched back to the Tories again once Ed Miliband and Corbyn became Labour leaders
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 43,711
    edited August 4

    Both main parties are currently completely indifferent to the damage they are doing because it currently only disturbs out groups.

    It is a mess and the damage needs to be mitigated as much as possible. Seems to be a wall of silence on Macron - May meeting which does indicate they are acting responsibly and I still maintain TM is the best hope for a deal.

    The leavers have shown how totally incompetent they are and as for Boris, the least said the better
    The only post Brexit 'deal' she will get will be a withdrawal agreement and transition period where we will still be in the single market and customs union in all but name, details of the FTA to be worked on in the transition, as far as the EU is concerned potentially indefinitely
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 14,924
    HYUFD said:

    Both main parties are currently completely indifferent to the damage they are doing because it currently only disturbs out groups.

    It is a mess and the damage needs to be mitigated as much as possible. Seems to be a wall of silence on Macron - May meeting which does indicate they are acting responsibly and I still maintain TM is the best hope for a deal.

    The leavers have shown how totally incompetent they are and as for Boris, the least said the better
    The only 'deal' she will get will be a withdrawal agreement and transition period, details of the FTA to be worked on in the transition, as far as the EU is concerned potentially indefinitely
    You cannot have any certainty on anything today.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 43,711

    HYUFD said:

    Both main parties are currently completely indifferent to the damage they are doing because it currently only disturbs out groups.

    It is a mess and the damage needs to be mitigated as much as possible. Seems to be a wall of silence on Macron - May meeting which does indicate they are acting responsibly and I still maintain TM is the best hope for a deal.

    The leavers have shown how totally incompetent they are and as for Boris, the least said the better
    The only 'deal' she will get will be a withdrawal agreement and transition period, details of the FTA to be worked on in the transition, as far as the EU is concerned potentially indefinitely
    You cannot have any certainty on anything today.
    I can based on what we know Barnier and Juncker have said they will offer
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 11,550
    edited August 4

    Both main parties are currently completely indifferent to the damage they are doing because it currently only disturbs out groups.

    It is a mess and the damage needs to be mitigated as much as possible. Seems to be a wall of silence on Macron - May meeting which does indicate they are acting responsibly and I still maintain TM is the best hope for a deal.

    The leavers have shown how totally incompetent they are and as for Boris, the least said the better
    British, or at least English politics is a mess at the moment. At least in Wales and Scotland there are different parties who seem to be making a better fist of things, although Plaid Cymru seems to have severe problems in breaking out of the West and North-West.

    About N. Ireland the less said the better, although do I detect a chink of light which might lead to a United Ireland?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 1,887
    ydoethur said:

    Meanwhile, this could potentially be even more embarrassing and disastrous for Labour:

    Carolyn Harris: Corbyn backs under fire MP in gay slur row
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-45055491

    That means Corbyn's team on equalities now includes one member who has previously been disciplined for calling for ethnic cleansing, and another who faces legal action for alleged assault and homophobic bullying. That's even before we get started on Rhoda Grant's links to a 'gay cure' charity.

    Need to note that that case may still be sub-judice, and that this came up as testimony in a case where one of Harris's aids had been accused of forgery / fraud wrt expenses. And has now been found not guilty.

    And I think the assault thing is internal disciplinary action not legal action.

    Apart from that...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 43,711
    edited August 4

    Both main parties are currently completely indifferent to the damage they are doing because it currently only disturbs out groups.

    It is a mess and the damage needs to be mitigated as much as possible. Seems to be a wall of silence on Macron - May meeting which does indicate they are acting responsibly and I still maintain TM is the best hope for a deal.

    The leavers have shown how totally incompetent they are and as for Boris, the least said the better
    British, or at least English politics is a mess at the moment. At least in Wales and Scotland there are different parties who seem to be making a better fist of things, although Plaid Cymru seems to have severe problems in breaking out of the West and North-West.

    About N. Ireland the less said the better, although do I detect a chink of light which might lead to a United Ireland?
    There will not be a United Ireland while the DUP remains the largest party in Northern Ireland and even if the Catholic majority counties of Northern Ireland eventually agree to join the Republic of Ireland the Protestant majority counties, especially Antrim, never will.

    Wales voted Leave just like England
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 14,924
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Both main parties are currently completely indifferent to the damage they are doing because it currently only disturbs out groups.

    It is a mess and the damage needs to be mitigated as much as possible. Seems to be a wall of silence on Macron - May meeting which does indicate they are acting responsibly and I still maintain TM is the best hope for a deal.

    The leavers have shown how totally incompetent they are and as for Boris, the least said the better
    The only 'deal' she will get will be a withdrawal agreement and transition period, details of the FTA to be worked on in the transition, as far as the EU is concerned potentially indefinitely
    You cannot have any certainty on anything today.
    I can based on what we know Barnier and Juncker have said they will offer
    No you dont. You base so much on assumptions and dare I say polls. This is a negotiation. Stop believing everything you read or hear and treat it all with caution
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,789

    In terms of voting Labour had lost the Jewish community before Corbyn had become leader...

    In percentage terms I think it is about 3-5% change in Jewish vote for Labour from Jewish leader Ed Miliband to Corbyn.

    On that bombshell I'll leave everyone to state how Labour are racist and evil and the Conservatives are beyond reproach and go about my day...

    The Jezza apologist speaks. Can you back that up?

    The party was doing a whole lot better in places like Barnet until Jezza came on the scene
    It is also sickening in that the only issue of interest to him is how many votes has Jeremy [not] lost. Unstated of course is how may votes does Labour expect to keep or gain by its anti-Israel stance. Instead he might wonder how Labour has lost its moral compass.
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,789

    Foxy said:

    Second.

    Another day of arguing anti-Semitism vs anti Zionism?

    Time to get up and do something else.

    It makes a change from Brexit. Well, I must be off :D
    Lol - two lefties not keen to talk about Labour's problems with Jews - quele surprise.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 629
    edited August 4
    MattW said:

    Numbers of Jewish Voters. I find myself agreeing with @Jezziah, of all people on a couple of points. I think:

    1 - Labour's recent fall in Jewish votes is quite minor ... they lost it some time ago. Perhaps this correlates with the rise of campaigns, which have been driven in part by certain Far Left controlled Trades Unions. PCS had a lot of controversy, for example.
    2 - There seems to be a further loss now, driven by the current debacle, and Corbyn's failure to address it except by circumlocution.
    3 - There may be something about the LD Jewish vote transferring to the Tories, given the LD Cheshire Cat performance over the last few years.

    From the BES, this page:
    http://www.britishelectionstudy.com/data/#.W2VzotJKjSF
    and a BRIN article.

    2005: Lab 26.9% Tory 47.4% LD: 16.8
    2010: Lab 20% Tory 44.1% LD: 22.6
    2017: Lab 26% Tory 63%

    I would need to create some reports to get the 2015 details. The only other long term data I have seen is Jewish Chronicle polls, and I assume Yougov have some that they could analyse (calling Anthony Wells...).

    The numbers of Jewish voters are tiny; after all, they only constitute 0.4% of the UK population and there are only a handful of places where Jews are a sufficiently high % of the local population and the constituency is marginal for there to be any possible effect.

    It is quite clear that the major elements of the Labour party dislike Zionism, but this is nothing new - the Webbs, Ramsay/Malcolm Macdonald and Ernest Bevin are earlier examples. The current Labour leadership is clearly reluctant to follow the Zionist line, hence the unwillingness to implement the examples in the IHRA guideline in full. They are perfectly entitled to do this if they so wish, and I doubt whether it would do them any electoral harm.

    The man/woman in the street doesn't give a damn, and even if she/he is paying any attention at all to the issue, is more than likely just to take a dislike to those who are whining. Mr Willsman's outburst at the NEC meeting is an example of this attitude, and I suspect many share that view, but are sufficiently PC-savvy not to express it in public. If anything, the longer this issue continues to dominate the headlines, the more antisemitism is re-inforced.

    On that note, I wonder whether it might be desirable for PB to stop publishing so many thread headers on this topic. It matters little to the UK, compared to the enormous impact of Brexit (or more likely BINO).
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 43,711
    edited August 4

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Both main parties are currently completely indifferent to the damage they are doing because it currently only disturbs out groups.

    It is a mess and the damage needs to be mitigated as much as possible. Seems to be a wall of silence on Macron - May meeting which does indicate they are acting responsibly and I still maintain TM is the best hope for a deal.

    The leavers have shown how totally incompetent they are and as for Boris, the least said the better
    The only 'deal' she will get will be a withdrawal agreement and transition period, details of the FTA to be worked on in the transition, as far as the EU is concerned potentially indefinitely
    You cannot have any certainty on anything today.
    I can based on what we know Barnier and Juncker have said they will offer
    No you dont. You base so much on assumptions and dare I say polls. This is a negotiation. Stop believing everything you read or hear and treat it all with caution
    There are no polls to be mentioned.

    Barnier has made clear we only get a post Brexit transition deal if we effectively stay in the single market and customs union in all but name to deal with the Irish border issue which is what the Chequers Deal moved towards and Juncker has made clear it took Canada 7 years to get a FTA with the EU and the EU would take the same approach with the UK.

  • RogerRoger Posts: 9,477
    Cyclefree said:

    Roger said:

    Cyclefree said:



    It is perfectly possible to criticise Israel without crossing the line into anti-Semitism. Which makes me wonder why people are not doing so ?


    So one of the reasons why those who do not want Israel to exist are so keen to describe it as a Nazi or Nazi-like state is because that makes it so much easier to justify its destruction, its removal from the world scene. After all, who wouldn’t want to stop another Nazi state arising? Ditto with the comparisons with apartheid South Africa.


    Corbyn’s view of Israel and the language he uses is, whether he realises it or not, exterminatory in its aims and consequences. If he really believes what he says, then he should be arguing that Israel has no right to exist. It is certainly what some of his supporters believe and what many of his Palestinian associates believe. The threat to Jewry if Britain is led by such a man is the risk that it becomes the first Western country to call for Israel no longer to exist. And then what? What happens to the Jews living there, born there?

    Two of them are about criticising Israel in terms not used about other countries and using Nazi terminology. There are plenty of countries which are far worse in terms of policies, treatment of minorities etc than Israel - Burma or Saudi Arabia for instance or even Iran. And yet there is no great campaign to boycott them or call them Nazi-like or say that they should be wiped from the face of the earth. There is clearly a double standard being applied to Jews and Israel.

    And this is no accident. If you want to make it easy - even right - to remove a people or a country you first dehumanise them and make them out to be uniquely evil. Those who want to do this to Israel and Jews have learnt the lesson well from the Nazi playbook.
    Have you ever been to Israel?
    Yes.
    Well you should know then that even in Israel the governance of the country is hotly debated.. No one is talking about Israel's 'destruction' just one person one vote in Israel and the occupied territories. The only alternative is to create an apartheid state. The argument against is the same argument that was used by right-wingers here and in South Africa 'Give the blacks the vote and the whites will be wiped out'.

    The reason more people talk about Israel than Saudi Arabia and Burma despite their worse human rights record is because we have much stronger ties to Israel. I myself have literally dozens of family members currently living there. Fortunately they are far more open to robust debate than seems to be the case with the Labour Party.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 14,924

    Both main parties are currently completely indifferent to the damage they are doing because it currently only disturbs out groups.

    It is a mess and the damage needs to be mitigated as much as possible. Seems to be a wall of silence on Macron - May meeting which does indicate they are acting responsibly and I still maintain TM is the best hope for a deal.

    The leavers have shown how totally incompetent they are and as for Boris, the least said the better
    British, or at least English politics is a mess at the moment. At least in Wales and Scotland there are different parties who seem to be making a better fist of things, although Plaid Cymru seems to have severe problems in breaking out of the West and North-West.

    About N. Ireland the less said the better, although do I detect a chink of light which might lead to a United Ireland?
    I wish it was in Wales.

    Labour are a disaster especially on the NHS and education in Wales. I waited 63 months for a bi lateral hernia operation and have serious issues with my knee and have been referred to an orthopaedic surgeon but told not to expect an appointment for six months, so just keep taking pain killers.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 11,550
    HYUFD said:

    Both main parties are currently completely indifferent to the damage they are doing because it currently only disturbs out groups.

    It is a mess and the damage needs to be mitigated as much as possible. Seems to be a wall of silence on Macron - May meeting which does indicate they are acting responsibly and I still maintain TM is the best hope for a deal.

    The leavers have shown how totally incompetent they are and as for Boris, the least said the better
    British, or at least English politics is a mess at the moment. At least in Wales and Scotland there are different parties who seem to be making a better fist of things, although Plaid Cymru seems to have severe problems in breaking out of the West and North-West.

    About N. Ireland the less said the better, although do I detect a chink of light which might lead to a United Ireland?
    There will not be a United Ireland while the DUP remains the largest party in Northern Ireland and even if the Catholic majority counties of Northern Ireland eventually agree to join the Republic of Ireland the Protestant majority counties, especially Antrim, never will.

    Wales voted Leave just like England
    A few years ago there was a suggestion that if there was a poll again those counties which voted to join the RoI should be allowed to do, with the remainder staying in a rump Norn. Personally I doubt that that would be possible without a population transfer, and hence impractable.
  • archer101auarcher101au Posts: 812
    HYUFD said:

    Both main parties are currently completely indifferent to the damage they are doing because it currently only disturbs out groups.

    It is a mess and the damage needs to be mitigated as much as possible. Seems to be a wall of silence on Macron - May meeting which does indicate they are acting responsibly and I still maintain TM is the best hope for a deal.

    The leavers have shown how totally incompetent they are and as for Boris, the least said the better
    The only post Brexit 'deal' she will get will be a withdrawal agreement and transition period where we will still be in the single market and customs union in all but name, details of the FTA to be worked on in the transition, as far as the EU is concerned potentially indefinitely
    Don’t forget she will offer the NI backstop as well. That woman really will go down in history as the worst PM in history. I suspect she will need to spend her days living overseas in exile as she won’t be welcome in the UK when the true extent of her betrayal is revealed.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 6,783
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Both main parties are currently completely indifferent to the damage they are doing because it currently only disturbs out groups.

    It is a mess and the damage needs to be mitigated as much as possible. Seems to be a wall of silence on Macron - May meeting which does indicate they are acting responsibly and I still maintain TM is the best hope for a deal.

    The leavers have shown how totally incompetent they are and as for Boris, the least said the better
    The only 'deal' she will get will be a withdrawal agreement and transition period, details of the FTA to be worked on in the transition, as far as the EU is concerned potentially indefinitely
    You cannot have any certainty on anything today.
    I can based on what we know Barnier and Juncker have said they will offer
    No you dont. You base so much on assumptions and dare I say polls. This is a negotiation. Stop believing everything you read or hear and treat it all with caution
    There are no polls to be mentioned.

    Barnier has made clear we only get a post Brexit transition deal if we effectively stay in the single market and customs union in all but name to deal with the Irish border issue which is what the Chequers Deal moved towards and Juncker has made clear it took Canada 7 years to get a FTA with the EU and the EU would take the same approach with the UK.

    Good morning all. Brexit and anti-semitism. Oof. Thin fare for such a once-diverse site!

    Regarding CETA. Because of its scope, it's a mixed agreement, which requires unanimous agreement at the national level, so it's currently provisional only. The Italians are threatening to veto it, due to concerns about PDO and PGI protections.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 19,140
    Cyclefree said:



    It is perfectly possible to criticise Israel without crossing the line into anti-Semitism. Which makes me wonder why people are not doing so ?

    Why? If your aim is the destruction of Israel, its removal from the map - and think how unusual an aim that is, more new countries having been created since WW2 than lost - then it is essential to have the world think of it as uniquely evil.

    So one of the reasons why those who do not want Israel to exist are so keen to describe it as a Nazi or Nazi-like state is because that makes it so much easier to justify its destruction, its removal from the world scene. After all, who wouldn’t want to stop another Nazi state arising? Ditto with the comparisons with apartheid South Africa.

    So the use of Nazi comparisons is not just people getting overheated or being anti-semitic or even being enthusiastically pro-Palestinian. It is a necessary part of an agenda which has as its logical end point the extermination of the state of Israel. Such language is not necessary (and arguably deeply unhelpful) if your aim is to get Israel to change its policies for the better. But it is absolutely essential if you want Israel to disappear and be replaced by a Palestinian state from Jordan to the sea, which is the explicit aim of, for instance, Hamas.

    Corbyn’s view of Israel and the language he uses is, whether he realises it or not, exterminatory in its aims and consequences. If he really believes what he says, then he should be arguing that Israel has no right to exist. It is certainly what some of his supporters believe and what many of his Palestinian associates believe. The threat to Jewry if Britain is led by such a man is the risk that it becomes the first Western country to call for Israel no longer to exist. And then what? What happens to the Jews living there, born there?

    And that is why those two examples in the IHRA code which Labour does not want to have matter. Two of them are about criticising Israel in terms not used about other countries and using Nazi terminology. There are plenty of countries which are far worse in terms of policies, treatment of minorities etc than Israel - Burma or Saudi Arabia for instance or even Iran. And yet there is no great campaign to boycott them or call them Nazi-like or say that they should be wiped from the face of the earth. There is clearly a double standard being applied to Jews and Israel.

    And this is no accident. If you want to make it easy - even right - to remove a people or a country you first dehumanise them and make them out to be uniquely evil. Those who want to do this to Israel and Jews have learnt the lesson well from the Nazi playbook.
    They certainly are not helping themselves at present , pretty despicable what they are up to, you would have expected them to know better given the atrocities visited on them in the past.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 14,924
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Both main parties are currently completely indifferent to the damage they are doing because it currently only disturbs out groups.

    It is a mess and the damage needs to be mitigated as much as possible. Seems to be a wall of silence on Macron - May meeting which does indicate they are acting responsibly and I still maintain TM is the best hope for a deal.

    The leavers have shown how totally incompetent they are and as for Boris, the least said the better
    The only 'deal' she will get will be a withdrawal agreement and transition period, details of the FTA to be worked on in the transition, as far as the EU is concerned potentially indefinitely
    You cannot have any certainty on anything today.
    I can based on what we know Barnier and Juncker have said they will offer
    No you dont. You base so much on assumptions and dare I say polls. This is a negotiation. Stop believing everything you read or hear and treat it all with caution
    There are no polls to be mentioned.

    Barnier has made clear we only get a post Brexit transition deal if we effectively stay in the single market and customs union in all but name to deal with the Irish border issue which is what the Chequers Deal moved towards and Juncker has made clear it took Canada 7 years to get a FTA with the EU and the EU would take the same approach with the UK.

    What do you not understand about a negotiation. You are in so many ways inflexible in your views. You and I have no idea of the final outcome.
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,789
    ydoethur said:

    Meanwhile, this could potentially be even more embarrassing and disastrous for Labour:

    Carolyn Harris: Corbyn backs under fire MP in gay slur row
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-45055491

    That means Corbyn's team on equalities now includes one member who has previously been disciplined for calling for ethnic cleansing, and another who faces legal action for alleged assault and homophobic bullying. That's even before we get started on Rhoda Grant's links to a 'gay cure' charity.

    The reason this has the potential to be more damaging is because although the anti-Semitism is not well received by sensible people, it's ignored by the cult (as we can see from the Skawkbox acolyte on this thread) and a very large number of the people who take it derisively won't be voting Labour anyway.

    However if its clients among the liberal elites and the gay rights lobby conclude Labour is homophobic, all bets on number of seats at the next election are off. That's where Labour's support under Corbyn has been rock solid and their loss would be disastrous.

    I wonder if there is a large group of key Labour supporters who tend in polling to be both anti-gay and anti-semitic [ innocent face]!
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 11,550

    HYUFD said:

    Both main parties are currently completely indifferent to the damage they are doing because it currently only disturbs out groups.

    It is a mess and the damage needs to be mitigated as much as possible. Seems to be a wall of silence on Macron - May meeting which does indicate they are acting responsibly and I still maintain TM is the best hope for a deal.

    The leavers have shown how totally incompetent they are and as for Boris, the least said the better
    The only post Brexit 'deal' she will get will be a withdrawal agreement and transition period where we will still be in the single market and customs union in all but name, details of the FTA to be worked on in the transition, as far as the EU is concerned potentially indefinitely
    Don’t forget she will offer the NI backstop as well. That woman really will go down in history as the worst PM in history. I suspect she will need to spend her days living overseas in exile as she won’t be welcome in the UK when the true extent of her betrayal is revealed.
    Brown.... Cameron...... May.

    Wow!!!!
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,789
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Both main parties are currently completely indifferent to the damage they are doing because it currently only disturbs out groups.

    It is a mess and the damage needs to be mitigated as much as possible. Seems to be a wall of silence on Macron - May meeting which does indicate they are acting responsibly and I still maintain TM is the best hope for a deal.

    The leavers have shown how totally incompetent they are and as for Boris, the least said the better
    The only 'deal' she will get will be a withdrawal agreement and transition period, details of the FTA to be worked on in the transition, as far as the EU is concerned potentially indefinitely
    You cannot have any certainty on anything today.
    I can based on what we know Barnier and Juncker have said they will offer
    Try looking up the word 'negotiation' before coming out with all your 'certainties'.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 43,711

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Both main parties are currently completely indifferent to the damage they are doing because it currently only disturbs out groups.

    It is a mess and the damage needs to be mitigated as much as possible. Seems to be a wall of silence on Macron - May meeting which does indicate they are acting responsibly and I still maintain TM is the best hope for a deal.

    The leavers have shown how totally incompetent they are and as for Boris, the least said the better
    The only 'deal' she will get will be a withdrawal agreement and transition period, details of the FTA to be worked on in the transition, as far as the EU is concerned potentially indefinitely
    You cannot have any certainty on anything today.
    I can based on what we know Barnier and Juncker have said they will offer
    No you dont. You base so much on assumptions and dare I say polls. This is a negotiation. Stop believing everything you read or hear and treat it all with caution
    There are no polls to be mentioned.

    Barnier has made clear we only get a post Brexit transition deal if we effectively stay in the single market and customs union in all but name to deal with the Irish border issue which is what the Chequers Deal moved towards and Juncker has made clear it took Canada 7 years to get a FTA with the EU and the EU would take the same approach with the UK.

    What do you not understand about a negotiation. You are in so many ways inflexible in your views. You and I have no idea of the final outcome.
    When have the EU showed any flexibility whatsoever so far? What concessions have they given us? Zero.

    For them these negotiations are an ideological project to keep the EU together and dissuade other nations from following our lead and leaving the EU
  • archer101auarcher101au Posts: 812
    felix said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Both main parties are currently completely indifferent to the damage they are doing because it currently only disturbs out groups.

    It is a mess and the damage needs to be mitigated as much as possible. Seems to be a wall of silence on Macron - May meeting which does indicate they are acting responsibly and I still maintain TM is the best hope for a deal.

    The leavers have shown how totally incompetent they are and as for Boris, the least said the better
    The only 'deal' she will get will be a withdrawal agreement and transition period, details of the FTA to be worked on in the transition, as far as the EU is concerned potentially indefinitely
    You cannot have any certainty on anything today.
    I can based on what we know Barnier and Juncker have said they will offer
    Try looking up the word 'negotiation' before coming out with all your 'certainties'.
    I looked up the word negotiation. I cannot see any connection between this word and whatever May is doing.
This discussion has been closed.