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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Topping, who served with the British Army in Northern Ireland

SystemSystem Posts: 6,666
edited August 6 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Topping, who served with the British Army in Northern Ireland during the troubles, on Ulster and Brexit

Kenneth Allen / Bloody Sunday mural, Bogside

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 12,097
    First
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 12,097
    Always a pleasure to login just as RobD nips to the gents
  • RobDRobD Posts: 34,714
    Thanks for the header, Topping!
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 6,952
    A border in the Irish Sea is a non-starter.

    A border between north and south is a non-starter.

    That leaves the only option a border between UK/Ireland on the one side, and the rest of the EU on the other. Without the History, it would be a no-brainer.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 34,714
    I'm glad we've transitioned from 'violating the GFA to 'violating the spirit of the GFA', as I could find nothing in the text that precludes customs checks.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 4,386
    No matter what you think of the man and his politics - this sort of thing is never acceptable

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-45082053
  • RobDRobD Posts: 34,714
    IanB2 said:

    Always a pleasure to login just as RobD nips to the gents

    Gotta give others a chance sometimes!
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 9,478

    A border in the Irish Sea is a non-starter.

    A border between north and south is a non-starter.

    That leaves the only option a border between UK/Ireland on the one side, and the rest of the EU on the other. Without the History, it would be a no-brainer.

    "The history" being the bit where Ireland became an independent country?
  • Many thanks Topping.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 3,038
    Nobody really cares about Northern Ireland except as a weapon to drub the enemy with.

    It's a straw man masquerading as a home nation.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 3,038

    A border in the Irish Sea is a non-starter.

    A border between north and south is a non-starter.

    That leaves the only option a border between UK/Ireland on the one side, and the rest of the EU on the other. Without the History, it would be a no-brainer.

    "The history" being the bit where Ireland became an independent country?
    And joined the EU, and really is in no mood for leaving just because Britain says so.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,557

    Nobody really cares about Northern Ireland except as a weapon to drub the enemy with.

    It's a straw man masquerading as a home nation.

    Yep.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 46,534
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    That's the rub, Mr. Topping. Nobody wants a hard border, but the choice seems to be between that and letting the EU annex part of the UK, which is unacceptable.

    A shame Varadkar became Taoiseach. His predecessor seemed to have a more co-operative approach.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 2,500

    No matter what you think of the man and his politics - this sort of thing is never acceptable

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-45082053

    That picture of him, Ofjacob and his fucking weird kids on top of the ESB is just great.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 1,454

    A border in the Irish Sea is a non-starter.

    A border between north and south is a non-starter.

    That leaves the only option a border between UK/Ireland on the one side, and the rest of the EU on the other. Without the History, it would be a no-brainer.

    Ah, the old wait for the Irish to come to their senses and leave the EU as well solution! Why stop there, let's tell them they should give up all this republic nonsense, stop compalining and come back under the Crown where they belong.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 3,038
    Dura_Ace said:

    No matter what you think of the man and his politics - this sort of thing is never acceptable

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-45082053

    That picture of him, Ofjacob and his fucking weird kids on top of the ESB is just great.
    Ofjacob

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    I mean that's just rude.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 34,714
    Dura_Ace said:

    No matter what you think of the man and his politics - this sort of thing is never acceptable

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-45082053

    That picture of him, Ofjacob and his fucking weird kids on top of the ESB is just great.
    What a charming comment.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 3,038
    edited August 6

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    That's the rub, Mr. Topping. Nobody wants a hard border, but the choice seems to be between that and letting the EU annex part of the UK, which is unacceptable.

    A shame Varadkar became Taoiseach. His predecessor seemed to have a more co-operative approach.

    I've wondered why Varadkar isn't more conciliatory and I've come up with two options.

    1) He believes the chaos of no deal will accelerate the timetable of Irish reunification
    2) He's pissed off with May and thinks she's a bit of a twat

    I reckon it's 60:40.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 22,088
    So far one Leaver has sought to reannex Ireland and one has sought to replace its head of government with someone more amenable to Leave interests. You can't fault their ambitions.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 1,947
    "Posh scum" also rises to the top.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 3,038

    So far one Leaver has sought to reannex Ireland and one has sought to replace its head of government with someone more amenable to Leave interests. You can't fault their ambitions.

    JRM declared an air war with Ireland a few weeks ago too.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 40,453

    That's the rub, Mr. Topping. Nobody wants a hard border, but the choice seems to be between that and letting the EU annex part of the UK, which is unacceptable..

    There is of course another option
  • RobDRobD Posts: 34,714

    So far one Leaver has sought to reannex Ireland and one has sought to replace its head of government with someone more amenable to Leave interests. You can't fault their ambitions.

    JRM declared an air war with Ireland a few weeks ago too.
    In response to Varadkar's comments that the UK wouldn't be able to fly over Ireland?
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 3,823

    No matter what you think of the man and his politics - this sort of thing is never acceptable

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-45082053

    When his version of Brexit materializes I suspect we'll all be experiencing similar things - gangs of discontented, unemployed louts stripped of a future roaming the streets, venting their frustrations through vandalism and petty crime...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 23,508

    So far one Leaver has sought to reannex Ireland and one has sought to replace its head of government with someone more amenable to Leave interests. You can't fault their ambitions.

    We used to have a poster called Paul Bedfordshire who would regularly post about how “we” could be self-sufficient in food once you take into account Ireland.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 46,534
    Mr. Cocque, it's possible Varadkar's an imbecile.

    Just look at the PM. Or Leader of the Opposition. Or Boris. Or Trump.

    We're not exactly in the Golden Age of Imperial Rome as far as leaders go.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 3,038

    Mr. Cocque, it's possible Varadkar's an imbecile.

    Just look at the PM. Or Leader of the Opposition. Or Boris. Or Trump.

    We're not exactly in the Golden Age of Imperial Rome as far as leaders go.

    Hanlon's Razor certainly applies. But I think the Irish are just as pissed off with May's handling of Brexit as everyone else is. I imagine it's hard to be conciliatory when you really REALLY just want to give her a slap.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 3,823
    Dura_Ace said:

    No matter what you think of the man and his politics - this sort of thing is never acceptable

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-45082053

    That picture of him, Ofjacob and his fucking weird kids on top of the ESB is just great.
    Presumably that's Onetus and Twotus. Where are Threetus, Fourtus, Fivetus and Sixtus?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 9,478
    edited August 6

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    That's the rub, Mr. Topping. Nobody wants a hard border, but the choice seems to be between that and letting the EU annex part of the UK, which is unacceptable.

    A shame Varadkar became Taoiseach. His predecessor seemed to have a more co-operative approach.

    I've wondered why Varadkar isn't more conciliatory and I've come up with two options.

    1) He believes the chaos of no deal will accelerate the timetable of Irish reunification
    2) He's pissed off with May and thinks she's a bit of a twat

    I reckon it's 60:40.
    Voters generally don't like it when their governments get pushed around by foreigners and tend to overcompensate the other way, which is also how Britain got itself into its current predicament.
  • Good afternoon, everyone.

    That's the rub, Mr. Topping. Nobody wants a hard border, but the choice seems to be between that and letting the EU annex part of the UK, which is unacceptable.

    A shame Varadkar became Taoiseach. His predecessor seemed to have a more co-operative approach.

    I've wondered why Varadkar isn't more conciliatory and I've come up with two options.

    1) He believes the chaos of no deal will accelerate the timetable of Irish reunification
    2) He's pissed off with May and thinks she's a bit of a twat

    I reckon it's 60:40.
    The story allegedly is that David Davis wound up the Irish with his cackhandedness.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 3,532
    Excellent article Topping. Thanks.

    The solution to the NI/Republic border is for the UK to stay in the SM/CU - which is what is going to happen.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 3,038


    The story allegedly is that David Davis wound up the Irish with his cackhandedness.

    That implies there was somebody taking David Davis seriously, which doesn't seem, prima facie, at all plausible.
  • Stuff like this

    The man responsible for arranging Britain's exit from the European Union seems to be under the impression that Ireland is part of the UK, if his recent comments are anything to go by.

    According to the New Statesman, Brexit Minister David Davis appeared on the Sky News' Murnaghan programme to discuss the possibility of Scotland remaining in the EU while the rest of Britain leaves.

    In the programme he stated: "One of our really challenging issues . . . will be the internal border we have with southern Ireland."


    We have a question for Mr Davis; what exactly does he mean by "internal border we have with southern Ireland?"

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.joe.ie/amp/news/uks-brexit-minister-david-davis-seems-to-think-ireland-is-part-of-the-uk-553507

    This didn’t help either.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/04/how-dare-david-davis-blame-sinn-fein-for-the-irish-border-mess/amp/
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 1,454

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    That's the rub, Mr. Topping. Nobody wants a hard border, but the choice seems to be between that and letting the EU annex part of the UK, which is unacceptable.

    A shame Varadkar became Taoiseach. His predecessor seemed to have a more co-operative approach.

    I've wondered why Varadkar isn't more conciliatory and I've come up with two options.

    1) He believes the chaos of no deal will accelerate the timetable of Irish reunification
    2) He's pissed off with May and thinks she's a bit of a twat

    I reckon it's 60:40.
    The story allegedly is that David Davis wound up the Irish with his cackhandedness.
    It was probably news to DD that Ireland has been an independent country since 1922 (or 1931 or 1937 or 1949 depending on your definition).
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 48,486
    edited August 6
    rpjs said:

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    That's the rub, Mr. Topping. Nobody wants a hard border, but the choice seems to be between that and letting the EU annex part of the UK, which is unacceptable.

    A shame Varadkar became Taoiseach. His predecessor seemed to have a more co-operative approach.

    I've wondered why Varadkar isn't more conciliatory and I've come up with two options.

    1) He believes the chaos of no deal will accelerate the timetable of Irish reunification
    2) He's pissed off with May and thinks she's a bit of a twat

    I reckon it's 60:40.
    The story allegedly is that David Davis wound up the Irish with his cackhandedness.
    It was probably news to DD that Ireland has been an independent country since 1922 (or 1931 or 1937 or 1949 depending on your definition).
    1649 or 1690.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 22,088
    The eventual solution (at stage one) will be that everyone agrees that a solution will be found and Britain will commit to that come hell or high water. Stage two is a couple of years away and if the Irish border is the worst thing that can go wrong in those two years then candidly we'll all be very lucky.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 4,568
    Afternoon all :)

    I have to confess when I was considering how to vote in the EU Referendum, I never gave a moment's thought to Northern Ireland. I don't give it much thought now.

    Would I throw it and its people under a bus to get a good deal for the rest of the United Kingdom? I have to confess I probably would.

    I suspect my provincial non-unionist attitude isn't unique and as I read Topping's excellent debut thread (for which, many thanks and well worth the wait and perhaps a spur to some other frequent contributors to put up your own threads) I can see the conundrum.

    I suppose there was a time when the rural backwardness of Eire contrasted sharply with the prosperity of the United Kingdom - perhaps that's not so marked now. I was in Ireland in June and there looked to be plenty of prosperity in places like Killarney, Galway and Waterford.

    I wonder if the Protestant Unionist attitude is more about not wanting to be part of Ireland rather than wanting to be part of the UK.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 3,038
    In any case, the most important person in ensuring that we get a deal is not Merkel, or Barnier, or Macron. It's Varadkar, and it seems that throughout the whole process May has contrived only to antagonise him.

    The one person she really, REALLY needed onside. And May pissed him off. Because of course she did.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 46,534
    Mr. Cocque, indeed. May has a hard task, but that doesn't stop her underwhelming like Varro at Cannae.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 48,486

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    That's the rub, Mr. Topping. Nobody wants a hard border, but the choice seems to be between that and letting the EU annex part of the UK, which is unacceptable.

    A shame Varadkar became Taoiseach. His predecessor seemed to have a more co-operative approach.

    I've wondered why Varadkar isn't more conciliatory and I've come up with two options.

    1) He believes the chaos of no deal will accelerate the timetable of Irish reunification
    2) He's pissed off with May and thinks she's a bit of a twat

    I reckon it's 60:40.
    Voters generally don't like it when their governments get pushed around by foreigners and tend to overcompensate the other way, which is also how Britain got itself into its current predicament.
    True - In the event of "No Deal" Brexit both Varadkar and May could very well see a big surge in popularity.
    Popcorn time.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 16,165

    In any case, the most important person in ensuring that we get a deal is not Merkel, or Barnier, or Macron. It's Varadkar, and it seems that throughout the whole process May has contrived only to antagonise him.

    The one person she really, REALLY needed onside. And May pissed him off. Because of course she did.

    I'd like to see some evidence of that please. He seems to have been antagonistic since before he even took over. Before the Brexit vote even he was pushing for a Scottish Yes vote in 2014 which is ironic that he's in favour of dissolving one union but so against anything disturbing another. Where's the evidence anyone antagonised him rather than the other way around?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 34,714
    stodge said:


    I wonder if the Protestant Unionist attitude is more about not wanting to be part of Ireland rather than wanting to be part of the UK.

    Would you be able to pick that up in polls of national identity?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 12,706
    Interesting piece but where would PB be without pedantic nitpicking?

    NI has a population of c. 1.8m, Newcastle 300k.

    I agree with (what I think is) an implication that NI and the Troubles seem a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing, or if we did we've forgotten it. It's an irony that NI Unionists value their Britishness so highly while a large majority on the mainland are largely indifferent to it, and I think that contrast in attitudes is as much a problem as the incompatibility of Brexit, borders, custom unions and the GFA.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 9,478
    Pulpstar said:

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    That's the rub, Mr. Topping. Nobody wants a hard border, but the choice seems to be between that and letting the EU annex part of the UK, which is unacceptable.

    A shame Varadkar became Taoiseach. His predecessor seemed to have a more co-operative approach.

    I've wondered why Varadkar isn't more conciliatory and I've come up with two options.

    1) He believes the chaos of no deal will accelerate the timetable of Irish reunification
    2) He's pissed off with May and thinks she's a bit of a twat

    I reckon it's 60:40.
    Voters generally don't like it when their governments get pushed around by foreigners and tend to overcompensate the other way, which is also how Britain got itself into its current predicament.
    True - In the event of "No Deal" Brexit both Varadkar and May could very well see a big surge in popularity.
    Popcorn time.
    This is where their political skill gets tested. Any idiot can march their men to the top of the hill, what matters is the grace and agility they need to march them down again.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 16,165
    Scott_P said:

    That's the rub, Mr. Topping. Nobody wants a hard border, but the choice seems to be between that and letting the EU annex part of the UK, which is unacceptable..

    There is of course another option
    Yes but Ireland don't want to leave the EU like we voted to do so.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 15,666
    Barnesian said:

    Excellent article Topping. Thanks.

    The solution to the NI/Republic border is for the UK to stay in the SM/CU - which is what is going to happen.

    Thanks. It's difficult to see any other option, frankly.

    Let's see what "technology" can do for us.
  • Interesting piece but where would PB be without pedantic nitpicking?

    NI has a population of c. 1.8m, Newcastle 300k.

    I agree with (what I think is) an implication that NI and the Troubles seem a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing, or if we did we've forgotten it. It's an irony that NI Unionists value their Britishness so highly while a large majority on the mainland are largely indifferent to it, and I think that contrast in attitudes is as much a problem as the incompatibility of Brexit, borders, custom unions and the GFA.

    The city has a population of circa 300k, it is the greater metro area that has a population of 1.8milllion.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 15,666

    Interesting piece but where would PB be without pedantic nitpicking?

    NI has a population of c. 1.8m, Newcastle 300k.

    I agree with (what I think is) an implication that NI and the Troubles seem a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing, or if we did we've forgotten it. It's an irony that NI Unionists value their Britishness so highly while a large majority on the mainland are largely indifferent to it, and I think that contrast in attitudes is as much a problem as the incompatibility of Brexit, borders, custom unions and the GFA.

    Apologies a quick Google had Newcastle at 1.5m.

    Perhaps "and environs"!
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 9,478
    Very good piece. Another one that would be really useful trying to read the tea-leaves, if anyone has the local knowledge, would be a take on the DUP's situation: What's motivating them, how are their supporters taking things, what would it take for them to pull the plug on TMay, etc etc.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 15,666

    Many thanks Topping.

    Pleasure! Thanks.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 3,038

    Interesting piece but where would PB be without pedantic nitpicking?

    NI has a population of c. 1.8m, Newcastle 300k.

    I agree with (what I think is) an implication that NI and the Troubles seem a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing, or if we did we've forgotten it. It's an irony that NI Unionists value their Britishness so highly while a large majority on the mainland are largely indifferent to it, and I think that contrast in attitudes is as much a problem as the incompatibility of Brexit, borders, custom unions and the GFA.

    The city has a population of circa 300k, it is the greater metro area that has a population of 1.8milllion.
    The Tyne and Wear metropolitan area is 1.6m people, but that's obviously more than just Newcastle.

    Call somebody from Sunderland a Geordie and see how long you live.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 16,165
    Good thread thanks Topping.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 18,773
    The question the #fbpe crown will never answer is who is building and paying for this hard border because it sure aint the Uk.

  • CD13CD13 Posts: 4,844
    If the EU want a hard border, then it's up to Leo to put it up, surely? They'll be the ones in the EU.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 16,165
    TGOHF said:

    The question the #fbpe crown will never answer is who is building and paying for this hard border because it sure aint the Uk.

    Nor is it the EU. The Germans recently made clear the Irish will be the ones needing to do it.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 3,038
    edited August 6
    CD13 said:

    If the EU want a hard border, then it's up to Leo to put it up, surely? They'll be the ones in the EU.

    The EU don't want a hard border, that's the reason they proposed the backstop.

    Since the government welched on the backstop, everyone is waiting for the government's alternative proposal.

    Which will, of course, have to be remaining in the SM+CU because there is no better alternative likely to be forthcoming.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 12,706

    Interesting piece but where would PB be without pedantic nitpicking?

    NI has a population of c. 1.8m, Newcastle 300k.

    I agree with (what I think is) an implication that NI and the Troubles seem a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing, or if we did we've forgotten it. It's an irony that NI Unionists value their Britishness so highly while a large majority on the mainland are largely indifferent to it, and I think that contrast in attitudes is as much a problem as the incompatibility of Brexit, borders, custom unions and the GFA.

    The city has a population of circa 300k, it is the greater metro area that has a population of 1.8milllion.
    The Tyne and Wear metropolitan area is 1.6m people, but that's obviously more than just Newcastle.

    Call somebody from Sunderland a Geordie and see how long you live.
    Indeed. Similar applies to calling folk fae Paisley Weegies.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 2,901
    TOPPING said:

    Interesting piece but where would PB be without pedantic nitpicking?

    NI has a population of c. 1.8m, Newcastle 300k.

    I agree with (what I think is) an implication that NI and the Troubles seem a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing, or if we did we've forgotten it. It's an irony that NI Unionists value their Britishness so highly while a large majority on the mainland are largely indifferent to it, and I think that contrast in attitudes is as much a problem as the incompatibility of Brexit, borders, custom unions and the GFA.

    Apologies a quick Google had Newcastle at 1.5m.

    Perhaps "and environs"!
    1.6 million in Greater Newcastle – so near as dammit.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_areas_in_the_United_Kingdom
  • stodgestodge Posts: 4,568
    RobD said:

    stodge said:


    I wonder if the Protestant Unionist attitude is more about not wanting to be part of Ireland rather than wanting to be part of the UK.

    Would you be able to pick that up in polls of national identity?
    It would depend on the question(s) asked. All I have is a weak perception that for religious and cultural reasons there is an antipathy toward the south of Ireland among the Protestants in the north.

    The corollary of that is while the Protestants may wish to be in the UK it isn't wholly clear the UK feels that enthused and indeed the UK the Protestants may wish to belong to has gone. Are the Unionists simply wanting to belong to a country which is governed by people they like in a way they like ? That may work for them but may not work for everyone else.

    Identity comes from power.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 9,478
    TGOHF said:

    The question the #fbpe crown will never answer is who is building and paying for this hard border because it sure aint the Uk.

    Mexico? Although the UK's suggestions for not having a border involving all kinds of amazing computer systems tracking all the things all the time in case they try to go across it sounds like it would be even more expensive...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 15,666
    Anazina said:

    TOPPING said:

    Interesting piece but where would PB be without pedantic nitpicking?

    NI has a population of c. 1.8m, Newcastle 300k.

    I agree with (what I think is) an implication that NI and the Troubles seem a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing, or if we did we've forgotten it. It's an irony that NI Unionists value their Britishness so highly while a large majority on the mainland are largely indifferent to it, and I think that contrast in attitudes is as much a problem as the incompatibility of Brexit, borders, custom unions and the GFA.

    Apologies a quick Google had Newcastle at 1.5m.

    Perhaps "and environs"!
    1.6 million in Greater Newcastle – so near as dammit.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_areas_in_the_United_Kingdom
    :smile:
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 2,901

    Interesting piece but where would PB be without pedantic nitpicking?

    NI has a population of c. 1.8m, Newcastle 300k.

    I agree with (what I think is) an implication that NI and the Troubles seem a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing, or if we did we've forgotten it. It's an irony that NI Unionists value their Britishness so highly while a large majority on the mainland are largely indifferent to it, and I think that contrast in attitudes is as much a problem as the incompatibility of Brexit, borders, custom unions and the GFA.

    The city has a population of circa 300k, it is the greater metro area that has a population of 1.8milllion.
    The Tyne and Wear metropolitan area is 1.6m people, but that's obviously more than just Newcastle.

    Call somebody from Sunderland a Geordie and see how long you live.
    That's immaterial. Some people take offence to be called Londoners when they actually live in London (e.g. the Essex wannabes in Romford or the wish-for Surreyites of Surbiton). What they call themselves doesn't countermand basic geography.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 2,901
    edited August 6
    TGOHF said:

    The question the #fbpe crown will never answer is who is building and paying for this hard border because it sure aint the Uk.

    As a hardcore, Rangers-supporting loyalist I'm sure you would sleep easy with a wall on the banks of the Foyle, a la that on the Rio Grande wet-dreamed by your idol Donald Trump.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 18,773
    Anazina said:

    TGOHF said:

    The question the #fbpe crown will never answer is who is building and paying for this hard border because it sure aint the Uk.

    As a hardcore, Rangers-supportrung loyalist
    Oooh the relevance of that. Typical Corbynite bigotry.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 34,714
    Anazina said:

    Interesting piece but where would PB be without pedantic nitpicking?

    NI has a population of c. 1.8m, Newcastle 300k.

    I agree with (what I think is) an implication that NI and the Troubles seem a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing, or if we did we've forgotten it. It's an irony that NI Unionists value their Britishness so highly while a large majority on the mainland are largely indifferent to it, and I think that contrast in attitudes is as much a problem as the incompatibility of Brexit, borders, custom unions and the GFA.

    The city has a population of circa 300k, it is the greater metro area that has a population of 1.8milllion.
    The Tyne and Wear metropolitan area is 1.6m people, but that's obviously more than just Newcastle.

    Call somebody from Sunderland a Geordie and see how long you live.
    That's immaterial. Some people take offence to be called Londoners when they actually live in London (e.g. the Essex wannabes in Romford or the wish-for Surreyites of Surbiton). What they call themselves doesn't countermand basic geography.
    You are saying people from Sunderland are Geordies? It’s a view.... :p
  • Interesting piece but where would PB be without pedantic nitpicking?

    NI has a population of c. 1.8m, Newcastle 300k.

    I agree with (what I think is) an implication that NI and the Troubles seem a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing, or if we did we've forgotten it. It's an irony that NI Unionists value their Britishness so highly while a large majority on the mainland are largely indifferent to it, and I think that contrast in attitudes is as much a problem as the incompatibility of Brexit, borders, custom unions and the GFA.

    The city has a population of circa 300k, it is the greater metro area that has a population of 1.8milllion.
    The Tyne and Wear metropolitan area is 1.6m people, but that's obviously more than just Newcastle.

    Call somebody from Sunderland a Geordie and see how long you live.
    I used to live in Middleton Tyas, they all talk funny up in the North East, Geordies and Mackems.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 16,165

    CD13 said:

    If the EU want a hard border, then it's up to Leo to put it up, surely? They'll be the ones in the EU.

    The EU don't want a hard border, that's the reason they proposed the backstop.

    Since the government welched on the backstop, everyone is waiting for the government's alternative proposal.

    Which will, of course, have to be remaining in the SM+CU because there is no better alternative likely to be forthcoming.
    The government didn't welch on the backstop. The backstop agreed applied to the whole of the UK. The EU unilaterally changed that to NI only.

    A brave government would say that there is no backstop. The present status quo is that the border comes into effect in six months. Either the EU agrees a transition which kicks the border issue down the road until end of 2020 or it doesn't. We will address the border issue through our final trade deal and if that doesn't resolve the issue then we will with great sadness reluctantly need to put customs checks in place
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 2,901
    RobD said:

    Anazina said:

    Interesting piece but where would PB be without pedantic nitpicking?

    NI has a population of c. 1.8m, Newcastle 300k.

    I agree with (what I think is) an implication that NI and the Troubles seem a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing, or if we did we've forgotten it. It's an irony that NI Unionists value their Britishness so highly while a large majority on the mainland are largely indifferent to it, and I think that contrast in attitudes is as much a problem as the incompatibility of Brexit, borders, custom unions and the GFA.

    The city has a population of circa 300k, it is the greater metro area that has a population of 1.8milllion.
    The Tyne and Wear metropolitan area is 1.6m people, but that's obviously more than just Newcastle.

    Call somebody from Sunderland a Geordie and see how long you live.
    That's immaterial. Some people take offence to be called Londoners when they actually live in London (e.g. the Essex wannabes in Romford or the wish-for Surreyites of Surbiton). What they call themselves doesn't countermand basic geography.
    You are saying people from Sunderland are Geordies? It’s a view.... :p
    Nope. I'm not calling them anything. What they call themselves is immaterial to the fact that Sunderland is geographically in the same metro area as Newcastle. That's just a fact – they even have the same underground system and phone code FFS.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 2,901
    TGOHF said:

    Anazina said:

    TGOHF said:

    The question the #fbpe crown will never answer is who is building and paying for this hard border because it sure aint the Uk.

    As a hardcore, Rangers-supportrung loyalist
    Oooh the relevance of that. Typical Corbynite bigotry.

    It's quite relevant, because your views on the NI border are shaped by your worldview
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 31,787
    RobD said:

    I'm glad we've transitioned from 'violating the GFA to 'violating the spirit of the GFA', as I could find nothing in the text that precludes customs checks.

    Do you think the EU held a seance to get in touch with the “spirit” of the GFA?
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 2,901
    RobD said:

    Anazina said:

    Interesting piece but where would PB be without pedantic nitpicking?

    NI has a population of c. 1.8m, Newcastle 300k.

    I agree with (what I think is) an implication that NI and the Troubles seem a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing, or if we did we've forgotten it. It's an irony that NI Unionists value their Britishness so highly while a large majority on the mainland are largely indifferent to it, and I think that contrast in attitudes is as much a problem as the incompatibility of Brexit, borders, custom unions and the GFA.

    The city has a population of circa 300k, it is the greater metro area that has a population of 1.8milllion.
    The Tyne and Wear metropolitan area is 1.6m people, but that's obviously more than just Newcastle.

    Call somebody from Sunderland a Geordie and see how long you live.
    That's immaterial. Some people take offence to be called Londoners when they actually live in London (e.g. the Essex wannabes in Romford or the wish-for Surreyites of Surbiton). What they call themselves doesn't countermand basic geography.
    It’s a view.... :p
    I have only ever read this on PB – what on earth is the point of this truism? Isn't everything opinion 'a view'?

    Just a bullshit expression really.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 2,901
    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    TOPPING said:

    Interesting piece but where would PB be without pedantic nitpicking?

    NI has a population of c. 1.8m, Newcastle 300k.

    I agree with (what I think is) an implication that NI and the Troubles seem a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing, or if we did we've forgotten it. It's an irony that NI Unionists value their Britishness so highly while a large majority on the mainland are largely indifferent to it, and I think that contrast in attitudes is as much a problem as the incompatibility of Brexit, borders, custom unions and the GFA.

    Apologies a quick Google had Newcastle at 1.5m.

    Perhaps "and environs"!
    1.6 million in Greater Newcastle – so near as dammit.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_areas_in_the_United_Kingdom
    :smile:
    Great article by the way – thanks for posting it.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 31,787

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    That's the rub, Mr. Topping. Nobody wants a hard border, but the choice seems to be between that and letting the EU annex part of the UK, which is unacceptable.

    A shame Varadkar became Taoiseach. His predecessor seemed to have a more co-operative approach.

    I do not think history will judge Varadkar kindly. Stopping the border work Kenny had started was petty and foolish.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 15,666

    RobD said:

    I'm glad we've transitioned from 'violating the GFA to 'violating the spirit of the GFA', as I could find nothing in the text that precludes customs checks.

    Do you think the EU held a seance to get in touch with the “spirit” of the GFA?
    Theresa May's many pronouncements on the subject should clear up any lingering doubts about it.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 15,666
    Anazina said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    TOPPING said:

    Interesting piece but where would PB be without pedantic nitpicking?

    NI has a population of c. 1.8m, Newcastle 300k.

    I agree with (what I think is) an implication that NI and the Troubles seem a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing, or if we did we've forgotten it. It's an irony that NI Unionists value their Britishness so highly while a large majority on the mainland are largely indifferent to it, and I think that contrast in attitudes is as much a problem as the incompatibility of Brexit, borders, custom unions and the GFA.

    Apologies a quick Google had Newcastle at 1.5m.

    Perhaps "and environs"!
    1.6 million in Greater Newcastle – so near as dammit.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_areas_in_the_United_Kingdom
    :smile:
    Great article by the way – thanks for posting it.
    :smile: :smile:
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 16,165
    Anazina said:

    RobD said:

    Anazina said:

    Interesting piece but where would PB be without pedantic nitpicking?

    NI has a population of c. 1.8m, Newcastle 300k.

    I agree with (what I think is) an implication that NI and the Troubles seem a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing, or if we did we've forgotten it. It's an irony that NI Unionists value their Britishness so highly while a large majority on the mainland are largely indifferent to it, and I think that contrast in attitudes is as much a problem as the incompatibility of Brexit, borders, custom unions and the GFA.

    The city has a population of circa 300k, it is the greater metro area that has a population of 1.8milllion.
    The Tyne and Wear metropolitan area is 1.6m people, but that's obviously more than just Newcastle.

    Call somebody from Sunderland a Geordie and see how long you live.
    That's immaterial. Some people take offence to be called Londoners when they actually live in London (e.g. the Essex wannabes in Romford or the wish-for Surreyites of Surbiton). What they call themselves doesn't countermand basic geography.
    It’s a view.... :p
    I have only ever read this on PB – what on earth is the point of this truism? Isn't everything opinion 'a view'?

    Just a bullshit expression really.
    Most expressions are when you think them through. Like "have your cake and eat it" ... what is the bleeding point of having a cake if you don't intend to eat it?
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 6,555

    Nobody really cares about Northern Ireland except as a weapon to drub the enemy with.

    It's a straw man masquerading as a home nation.

    Yep.
    You guys might not care about Northern Ireland, but I was glad to see peace come to the province and the end to IRA bombings in the rest of the UK.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 18,773

    Nobody really cares about Northern Ireland except as a weapon to drub the enemy with.

    It's a straw man masquerading as a home nation.

    Yep.
    You guys might not care about Northern Ireland, but I was glad to see peace come to the province and the end to IRA bombings in the rest of the UK.
    Some of the comments about losing Ulster are a disgrace.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 21,179
    CD13 said:

    If the EU want a hard border, then it's up to Leo to put it up, surely? They'll be the ones in the EU.

    And the IRA can bomb Dublin and Brussels.

    Hmmmm.......
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 2,924
    Anazina said:

    RobD said:

    Anazina said:

    Interesting piece but where would PB be without pedantic nitpicking?

    NI has a population of c. 1.8m, Newcastle 300k.

    I agree with (what I think is) an implication that NI and the Troubles seem a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing, or if we did we've forgotten it. It's an irony that NI Unionists value their Britishness so highly while a large majority on the mainland are largely indifferent to it, and I think that contrast in attitudes is as much a problem as the incompatibility of Brexit, borders, custom unions and the GFA.

    The city has a population of circa 300k, it is the greater metro area that has a population of 1.8milllion.
    The Tyne and Wear metropolitan area is 1.6m people, but that's obviously more than just Newcastle.

    Call somebody from Sunderland a Geordie and see how long you live.
    That's immaterial. Some people take offence to be called Londoners when they actually live in London (e.g. the Essex wannabes in Romford or the wish-for Surreyites of Surbiton). What they call themselves doesn't countermand basic geography.
    It’s a view.... :p
    I have only ever read this on PB – what on earth is the point of this truism? Isn't everything opinion 'a view'?

    Just a bullshit expression really.
    It means that the only value you ascribe to the statement is to accept that it is a viewpoint. In other words, it's one rung above gibberish.

    In this case, it's pretty clear that Sunderland is not part of Newcastle.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 23,908
    Anazina said:

    Interesting piece but where would PB be without pedantic nitpicking?

    NI has a population of c. 1.8m, Newcastle 300k.

    I agree with (what I think is) an implication that NI and the Troubles seem a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing, or if we did we've forgotten it. It's an irony that NI Unionists value their Britishness so highly while a large majority on the mainland are largely indifferent to it, and I think that contrast in attitudes is as much a problem as the incompatibility of Brexit, borders, custom unions and the GFA.

    The city has a population of circa 300k, it is the greater metro area that has a population of 1.8milllion.
    The Tyne and Wear metropolitan area is 1.6m people, but that's obviously more than just Newcastle.

    Call somebody from Sunderland a Geordie and see how long you live.
    That's immaterial. Some people take offence to be called Londoners when they actually live in London (e.g. the Essex wannabes in Romford or the wish-for Surreyites of Surbiton). What they call themselves doesn't countermand basic geography.
    It's not geography that put Romford in Greater London, it's politics.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 21,179
    Anazina said:

    RobD said:

    Anazina said:

    Interesting piece but where would PB be without pedantic nitpicking?

    NI has a population of c. 1.8m, Newcastle 300k.

    I agree with (what I think is) an implication that NI and the Troubles seem a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing, or if we did we've forgotten it. It's an irony that NI Unionists value their Britishness so highly while a large majority on the mainland are largely indifferent to it, and I think that contrast in attitudes is as much a problem as the incompatibility of Brexit, borders, custom unions and the GFA.

    The city has a population of circa 300k, it is the greater metro area that has a population of 1.8milllion.
    The Tyne and Wear metropolitan area is 1.6m people, but that's obviously more than just Newcastle.

    Call somebody from Sunderland a Geordie and see how long you live.
    That's immaterial. Some people take offence to be called Londoners when they actually live in London (e.g. the Essex wannabes in Romford or the wish-for Surreyites of Surbiton). What they call themselves doesn't countermand basic geography.
    It’s a view.... :p
    I have only ever read this on PB – what on earth is the point of this truism? Isn't everything opinion 'a view'?

    Just a bullshit expression really.
    It's a bullshit expression for "Sorry, but that's bullshit...."
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 31,787
    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    I'm glad we've transitioned from 'violating the GFA to 'violating the spirit of the GFA', as I could find nothing in the text that precludes customs checks.

    Do you think the EU held a seance to get in touch with the “spirit” of the GFA?
    Theresa May's many pronouncements on the subject should clear up any lingering doubts about it.
    Now you respect Mrs May’s views?

    Excellent article, thanks.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 23,908
    "Boris Johnson mocks women in burkas who 'look like bank robbers'"

    https://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson-mocks-women-in-burkas-who-look-like-bank-robbers-11463209
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 21,179
    Freggles said:

    Anazina said:

    RobD said:

    Anazina said:

    Interesting piece but where would PB be without pedantic nitpicking?

    NI has a population of c. 1.8m, Newcastle 300k.

    I agree with (what I think is) an implication that NI and the Troubles seem a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing, or if we did we've forgotten it. It's an irony that NI Unionists value their Britishness so highly while a large majority on the mainland are largely indifferent to it, and I think that contrast in attitudes is as much a problem as the incompatibility of Brexit, borders, custom unions and the GFA.

    The city has a population of circa 300k, it is the greater metro area that has a population of 1.8milllion.
    The Tyne and Wear metropolitan area is 1.6m people, but that's obviously more than just Newcastle.

    Call somebody from Sunderland a Geordie and see how long you live.
    That's immaterial. Some people take offence to be called Londoners when they actually live in London (e.g. the Essex wannabes in Romford or the wish-for Surreyites of Surbiton). What they call themselves doesn't countermand basic geography.
    It’s a view.... :p
    I have only ever read this on PB – what on earth is the point of this truism? Isn't everything opinion 'a view'?

    Just a bullshit expression really.
    It means that the only value you ascribe to the statement is to accept that it is a viewpoint. In other words, it's one rung above gibberish.

    In this case, it's pretty clear that Sunderland is not part of Newcastle.
    Anyone who thinks Sunderland is part of Newcastle - go and sit in a pub there in a black and white striped shirt....
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 15,666

    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    I'm glad we've transitioned from 'violating the GFA to 'violating the spirit of the GFA', as I could find nothing in the text that precludes customs checks.

    Do you think the EU held a seance to get in touch with the “spirit” of the GFA?
    Theresa May's many pronouncements on the subject should clear up any lingering doubts about it.
    Now you respect Mrs May’s views?

    Excellent article, thanks.
    Haha good point. As I have mentioned a few times if you think presiding over a vote to leave the EU is bad for a PM's legacy just think what a reinstatement of the Irish border would do to it.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 18,051
    OrderOrder:

    "Brandon [Lewis] is trying to build a power base at Matthew Parker Street – don’t laugh, but he genuinely considers himself a leadership contender"

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 23,508

    CD13 said:

    If the EU want a hard border, then it's up to Leo to put it up, surely? They'll be the ones in the EU.

    And the IRA can bomb Dublin and Brussels.

    Hmmmm.......
    Aren't you ignoring a rather large elephant that, as Peter Robinson said, is positioning itself to squat on your lap?
  • marmanmarman Posts: 1
    This was a pretty good and fair summary of the situation. As an Irishman and nationalist to boot, who thinks from the outset that it's the UK who continue to 'annex' part of Ireland and should ultimately clear off, i must admit that i respect the authors clarity and appreciation of the situation. It's ironic that someone with a military background is so far advanced in terms of political sensitivity than most of the politicians.
  • BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,101
    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    I have to confess when I was considering how to vote in the EU Referendum, I never gave a moment's thought to Northern Ireland. I don't give it much thought now.

    Would I throw it and its people under a bus to get a good deal for the rest of the United Kingdom? I have to confess I probably would.

    I suspect my provincial non-unionist attitude isn't unique and as I read Topping's excellent debut thread (for which, many thanks and well worth the wait and perhaps a spur to some other frequent contributors to put up your own threads) I can see the conundrum.

    I suppose there was a time when the rural backwardness of Eire contrasted sharply with the prosperity of the United Kingdom - perhaps that's not so marked now. I was in Ireland in June and there looked to be plenty of prosperity in places like Killarney, Galway and Waterford.

    I wonder if the Protestant Unionist attitude is more about not wanting to be part of Ireland rather than wanting to be part of the UK.

    Ah, the sanctity of the nation state, so important to Leavers. Brings a tear to the eye, so it does.

    No, not our present nation state of course - it’s the one that lasted from 1707 to 1801 that’s the one worth trashing the economy for.


  • RobDRobD Posts: 34,714
    Anazina said:

    RobD said:

    Anazina said:

    Interesting piece but where would PB be without pedantic nitpicking?

    NI has a population of c. 1.8m, Newcastle 300k.

    I agree with (what I think is) an implication that NI and the Troubles seem a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing, or if we did we've forgotten it. It's an irony that NI Unionists value their Britishness so highly while a large majority on the mainland are largely indifferent to it, and I think that contrast in attitudes is as much a problem as the incompatibility of Brexit, borders, custom unions and the GFA.

    The city has a population of circa 300k, it is the greater metro area that has a population of 1.8milllion.
    The Tyne and Wear metropolitan area is 1.6m people, but that's obviously more than just Newcastle.

    Call somebody from Sunderland a Geordie and see how long you live.
    That's immaterial. Some people take offence to be called Londoners when they actually live in London (e.g. the Essex wannabes in Romford or the wish-for Surreyites of Surbiton). What they call themselves doesn't countermand basic geography.
    It’s a view.... :p
    I have only ever read this on PB – what on earth is the point of this truism? Isn't everything opinion 'a view'?

    Just a bullshit expression really.
    It’s only a truism if taken literally. Anyway, the cheeky emoticon should have been a hint that I was teasing you!
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 23,908
    edited August 6
    I always think that disapproval questions are pretty worthless, because people who disapprove will say so, and many people who secretly approve will say they disapprove "just in order to keep people on their toes".
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 1,312
    CD13 said:

    If the EU want a hard border, then it's up to Leo to put it up, surely? They'll be the ones in the EU.

    That is a far from trivial point because of the symbolism involved. It is the choice of the Irish whether or not the new border will cause serious disruption. If the UK - at least initially - choose not to impose border controls then the ire of the Nationalists ought to be directed towards Varadkar.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 23,908

    OrderOrder:

    "Brandon [Lewis] is trying to build a power base at Matthew Parker Street – don’t laugh, but he genuinely considers himself a leadership contender"

    I laughed. The idea of him as PM is ridiculous.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 3,823
    Interesting that there was a time when the public thought the government was doing a good job. I'm really struggling to recall why that would have been.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,314
    A very interesting article, Topping, many thanks. I know little about the Ireland issue, and if you say that the men of violence there are still in business and only waiting for an excuse to escalate, I'm sure you're right.

    However, you don't address the issue raised by someone on here fairly recently about the wider picture.

    Will it be wise for politicians to send out the loud & clear message that the way to get what you want is to threaten and carry out violence on the populations of the various countries involved?

    We all know there are some deeply unpleasant people who are ardently keen on Brexit. There's been a vote on the issue which resulted in a vote to leave the EU. If the politicians decide we cannot leave the EU because of the threat of violence from one quarter, can we be so certain that the reality of violence will not arise from another quarter?

    People who are shown that the ballot box doesn't work will sometimes turn to other methods.

    Good afternoon, everyone.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 46,534
    Good afternoon, Miss JGP.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 23,508

    CD13 said:

    If the EU want a hard border, then it's up to Leo to put it up, surely? They'll be the ones in the EU.

    That is a far from trivial point because of the symbolism involved. It is the choice of the Irish whether or not the new border will cause serious disruption. If the UK - at least initially - choose not to impose border controls then the ire of the Nationalists ought to be directed towards Varadkar.
    There will not be a border. The only variable is what political settlement will ultimately deliver it, whether through "vassal state" Brexit, the implementation of the backstop or some other form of special status, a reversal of Brexit, or the unification of Ireland.
This discussion has been closed.