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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Analysing the weekend’s extraordinary Twitter storm targeting

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  • Options
    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    "So far Mr. Watson remains and as I pointed out yesterday he was elected in a members’ ballot and has a personal mandate. There is very little that Corbynistas can do about it."

    The Times - Len McCluskey is coming for me, says Tom Watson

    What if Corbyn or Mcdonnell push for a change in the Labour Leadership/Deputy Leadership rules, making it easier to reduce MPs’ influence on the process?
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983

    Clearly, in the wake of the 'Tommy Robinson' circus coming to town, Boris decided to base his relaunch around a controversial subject that would also win him the approbation of the hard Right. But it all looked clumsy and contrived, and the quips about letterboxes etc. just juvenile in that context. I think Boris has flunked it.
    Daily Mail comments yesterday were very pro Boris and he did not even propose to ban the full veil as say France and Denmark have done
  • Options
    grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Pulpstar said:

    Of course immigration pushes up house prices. It's not the main factor, or the only factor - but it certainly creates an increase in demand..
    Yes, it's those bloody immigrants.

    Not a catastrophically ill advised decade of dangerously low interest rates, a shortage of supply, caused by failed public policy, and people living far longer.

    You're right it's just DA IMMIHGRUNTS
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    Scott_P said:
    Brandon Lewis? About as likely to be Tory leader as Gavin Williamson is.
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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,709
    UKIP has suspended three party members after protesters wearing Donald Trump masks and hats stormed a socialist bookshop.
    Police were called to Bookmarks, in central London, on Saturday to claims a group of demonstrators were "intimidating" staff and customers.
    https://news.sky.com/story/ukip-suspends-three-members-over-socialist-bookshop-incident-11464245
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    Scott_P said:
    Brandon Lewis? About as likely to be Tory leader as Gavin Williamson is.
    No, he's much more likely.

    Not very likely, mind, but much more likely.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited August 2018
    Danny565 said:

    Anazina said:

    Financial Times compared the contest between Flint and Watson to the hotly contested 1981 deputy leadership election between Denis Healey and the leftist Tony Benn.

    Watson claimed to be the left wing candidate in reality no left wing candidates were on the ballot

    Watson is rightwing because he thinks Labour have a problem with antisemitism among some of their members? I beg to differ.
    He is rightwing because he is rightwing.

    He votes consistently with Progress. calls everyone to his left Trot Entryists, is funded by LFI, tried to keep Corbyn as leader off the ballot in 2016
    Watson is NOT right-wing! Rees-Mogg is right-wing, Farage is right-wing, Bannon is right-wing; Watson is merely moderate left-of-centre.

    Can you get it into your dumb brain BigJohn that calling Watson right wing reinforces the view that Labour has been taken over by crazed marxist infiltrators and puts-off voters like me, who would otherwise be willing to give Labour's manifesto ideas a try.

    If you want to see those kind of policies enacted you need to attract votes from people well to the right of Watson.
    My dumb brain cannot compute.
    You have clearly spent too much time on the alt-left conspiracy loon websites.
    I love how you talk about "alt-left loon sites" while repeatedly posting links to Guido Fawkes, without a hint of irony.
    I post to a wide range of sites from the New Statesman, Guardian etc on the left, to Telegraph and Fawkes on the right.

    Comparing Sqwawkbox to Fawkes is laughable. Sqwawkbox is pushes a load of dodgy conspiracy theories and Fake news, it is the left wing cross between Alex Jones and Breitbart.

    Guido Fawkes is a right wing / anti-EU site that is read by most MPs, and whose posts regularly form the basis of stories in a range of established newspapers.

    Until recently, I happily posted to things like Left Foot Forward or Labour List. Left leaning equivalents.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,192
    Scott_P said:
    Is Owen Jones starting on Neil, because Jones knows he's the interviewer that will tear shreds off Labour's main spokespeople and manifesto over costings in the run up to GE?

    Just wondering...
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914

    Pulpstar said:

    Of course immigration pushes up house prices. It's not the main factor, or the only factor - but it certainly creates an increase in demand..
    Yes, it's those bloody immigrants.

    Not a catastrophically ill advised decade of dangerously low interest rates, a shortage of supply, caused by failed public policy, and people living far longer.

    You're right it's just DA IMMIHGRUNTS
    Are you actually thick, or do you just like to give that impression ?
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,650
    edited August 2018

    Anazina said:

    Financial Times compared the contest between Flint and Watson to the hotly contested 1981 deputy leadership election between Denis Healey and the leftist Tony Benn.

    Watson claimed to be the left wing candidate in reality no left wing candidates were on the ballot

    Watson is rightwing because he thinks Labour have a problem with antisemitism among some of their members? I beg to differ.
    He is rightwing because he is rightwing.

    He votes consistently with Progress. calls everyone to his left Trot Entryists, is funded by LFI, tried to keep Corbyn as leader off the ballot in 2016
    Watson is NOT right-wing! Rees-Mogg is right-wing, Farage is right-wing, Bannon is right-wing; Watson is merely moderate left-of-centre.

    Can you get it into your dumb brain BigJohn that calling Watson right wing reinforces the view that Labour has been taken over by crazed marxist infiltrators and puts-off voters like me, who would otherwise be willing to give Labour's manifesto ideas a try.

    If you want to see those kind of policies enacted you need to attract votes from people well to the right of Watson.
    My dumb brain cannot compute.
    A well-put, convincing argument, I'm entirely swayed.
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    grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    HYUFD said:

    Clearly, in the wake of the 'Tommy Robinson' circus coming to town, Boris decided to base his relaunch around a controversial subject that would also win him the approbation of the hard Right. But it all looked clumsy and contrived, and the quips about letterboxes etc. just juvenile in that context. I think Boris has flunked it.
    Daily Mail comments yesterday were very pro Boris and he did not even propose to ban the full veil as say France and Denmark have done
    It just all seems so... scripted and obvious. Has one meeting with Bannon and suddenly the former Mayor of London Oh Oh Boris hates the Muslims now, does he?

    OH WELL, I'M SURE IT'S COMPLETELY GENUINE AND NOT SHITTY GAMBIT FROM A NARCISSISTIC MORAL VACUUM WHO WILL SAY AND DO ANYTHING TO GET NOTICED.

    Just imagine how thick you'd have to be to buy his Damascene conversion to Muslim hate.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983

    UKIP has suspended three party members after protesters wearing Donald Trump masks and hats stormed a socialist bookshop.
    Police were called to Bookmarks, in central London, on Saturday to claims a group of demonstrators were "intimidating" staff and customers.
    https://news.sky.com/story/ukip-suspends-three-members-over-socialist-bookshop-incident-11464245

    Left-wing anarchists have attacked Jacob Rees Mogg's Somerset house and his wife's Land Rover while his family are on holiday in New York


    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-somerset-45082053
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    edited August 2018

    HYUFD said:

    Clearly, in the wake of the 'Tommy Robinson' circus coming to town, Boris decided to base his relaunch around a controversial subject that would also win him the approbation of the hard Right. But it all looked clumsy and contrived, and the quips about letterboxes etc. just juvenile in that context. I think Boris has flunked it.
    Daily Mail comments yesterday were very pro Boris and he did not even propose to ban the full veil as say France and Denmark have done
    It just all seems so... scripted and obvious. Has one meeting with Bannon and suddenly the former Mayor of London Oh Oh Boris hates the Muslims now, does he?

    OH WELL, I'M SURE IT'S COMPLETELY GENUINE AND NOT SHITTY GAMBIT FROM A NARCISSISTIC MORAL VACUUM WHO WILL SAY AND DO ANYTHING TO GET NOTICED.

    Just imagine how thick you'd have to be to buy his Damascene conversion to Muslim hate.
    When did he ever say he hated Muslims? He even said he had read the Koran and could find no requirement for the full veil within it.

    57% of UK voters wanted to ban the burka in a 2016 poll including even 48% of Labour voters as well as a big majority of Tory and UKIP voters

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/08/31/majority-public-backs-burka-ban/
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,650
    HYUFD said:

    Clearly, in the wake of the 'Tommy Robinson' circus coming to town, Boris decided to base his relaunch around a controversial subject that would also win him the approbation of the hard Right. But it all looked clumsy and contrived, and the quips about letterboxes etc. just juvenile in that context. I think Boris has flunked it.
    Daily Mail comments yesterday were very pro Boris and he did not even propose to ban the full veil as say France and Denmark have done
    Do you mean comments in the Daily Mail itself or the the commenters to MailOnline?
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,192

    HYUFD said:

    Clearly, in the wake of the 'Tommy Robinson' circus coming to town, Boris decided to base his relaunch around a controversial subject that would also win him the approbation of the hard Right. But it all looked clumsy and contrived, and the quips about letterboxes etc. just juvenile in that context. I think Boris has flunked it.
    Daily Mail comments yesterday were very pro Boris and he did not even propose to ban the full veil as say France and Denmark have done
    It just all seems so... scripted and obvious. Has one meeting with Bannon and suddenly the former Mayor of London Oh Oh Boris hates the Muslims now, does he?

    OH WELL, I'M SURE IT'S COMPLETELY GENUINE AND NOT SHITTY GAMBIT FROM A NARCISSISTIC MORAL VACUUM WHO WILL SAY AND DO ANYTHING TO GET NOTICED.

    Just imagine how thick you'd have to be to buy his Damascene conversion to Muslim hate.
    Johnson doesn't need any of this to win the mandate of the Tory members, unless, of course, the rumour that a load of kippers and asorted other radical right wing fringers have a co-ordinated scheme to join the Tories as members in order to vote in leadership.

    Associates reporting 20-30 new members appearing overnight according to irrc Sunday Times.
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    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,298
    HYUFD said:

    Clearly, in the wake of the 'Tommy Robinson' circus coming to town, Boris decided to base his relaunch around a controversial subject that would also win him the approbation of the hard Right. But it all looked clumsy and contrived, and the quips about letterboxes etc. just juvenile in that context. I think Boris has flunked it.
    Daily Mail comments yesterday were very pro Boris and he did not even propose to ban the full veil as say France and Denmark have done
    I think for Boris to get applause from the Daily Mail comments by having a go at Muslims is a bit 'shooting fish in a barrel'.
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    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited August 2018


    Comparing Sqwawkbox to Fawkes is laughable. Sqwawkbox is pushes a load of dodgy conspiracy theories and Fake news, it is the left wing cross between Alex Jones and Breitbart.

    On the Guido homepage, there's an item headlined "Carney's Project Fear 2.0", featuring a pic of Mark Carney with devil eyes...
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,502

    I see Morris Dancer has been advising Penny Mordaunt.

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1026793851112091648

    The modern conception of the nation state didn't come into existence until after WW1 anyway, so I think the argument is entirely meaningless.

    But Iceland's Parliament has sat nearly continuously since 930 AD so I think it has any constitutional body in Europe beaten by centuries.
    Iceland only became independent of Denmark about a century back - and an island essentially built out of volcanoes, and sitting athwart a divergent plate boundary, can hardly be described as 'stable'....
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983

    HYUFD said:

    Clearly, in the wake of the 'Tommy Robinson' circus coming to town, Boris decided to base his relaunch around a controversial subject that would also win him the approbation of the hard Right. But it all looked clumsy and contrived, and the quips about letterboxes etc. just juvenile in that context. I think Boris has flunked it.
    Daily Mail comments yesterday were very pro Boris and he did not even propose to ban the full veil as say France and Denmark have done
    Do you mean comments in the Daily Mail itself or the the commenters to MailOnline?
    Below the line
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052
    edited August 2018
    HYUFD said:

    UKIP has suspended three party members after protesters wearing Donald Trump masks and hats stormed a socialist bookshop.
    Police were called to Bookmarks, in central London, on Saturday to claims a group of demonstrators were "intimidating" staff and customers.
    https://news.sky.com/story/ukip-suspends-three-members-over-socialist-bookshop-incident-11464245

    Left-wing anarchists have attacked Jacob Rees Mogg's Somerset house and his wife's Land Rover while his family are on holiday in New York

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-somerset-45082053
    How do you know it was left-wing anarchists? Have the culprits been identified?
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    tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,546
    Scott_P said:
    That seems pretty harsh; you don't need Tory leadership ambitions to think that Boris is acting like a twat.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,502
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Clearly, in the wake of the 'Tommy Robinson' circus coming to town, Boris decided to base his relaunch around a controversial subject that would also win him the approbation of the hard Right. But it all looked clumsy and contrived, and the quips about letterboxes etc. just juvenile in that context. I think Boris has flunked it.
    Daily Mail comments yesterday were very pro Boris and he did not even propose to ban the full veil as say France and Denmark have done
    It just all seems so... scripted and obvious. Has one meeting with Bannon and suddenly the former Mayor of London Oh Oh Boris hates the Muslims now, does he?

    OH WELL, I'M SURE IT'S COMPLETELY GENUINE AND NOT SHITTY GAMBIT FROM A NARCISSISTIC MORAL VACUUM WHO WILL SAY AND DO ANYTHING TO GET NOTICED.

    Just imagine how thick you'd have to be to buy his Damascene conversion to Muslim hate.
    When did he ever say he hated Muslims? ...
    Can't you recognise a Dulux dog whistle ?
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,272
    edited August 2018
    OchEye said:

    Anazina said:

    Financial Times compared the contest between Flint and Watson to the hotly contested 1981 deputy leadership election between Denis Healey and the leftist Tony Benn.

    Watson claimed to be the left wing candidate in reality no left wing candidates were on the ballot

    Watson is rightwing because he thinks Labour have a problem with antisemitism among some of their members? I beg to differ.
    He is rightwing because he is rightwing.

    He votes consistently with Progress. calls everyone to his left Trot Entryists, is funded by LFI, tried to keep Corbyn as leader off the ballot in 2016
    Watson right wing, really - the point is Corbyn and his cabal are hard left marxists so seen through his supporters anyone who does not bow to the cult is right wing
    Which Marx, Groucho, Chico, Harpo or & Spencer. Most people have never read Karl or even know of him, and that includes many in the Labour party. If you tried, and I have, to read Das Kapital, you would find it the greatest sophoric book around, as well as being a book of it's time - the 1880's rather than the 2000's. That so many regard Marxism as a slang or shorthand name calling for any one who doesn't suck to their own neo-liberalist views just indicates to me how poorly educated and thinking they are.
    And before you try slagging me off, I should perhaps also admit to reading many different economic philosophers right, left and centre, in my time, as well as most of the different religious holy books, military and many others. To try and understand what others believe in, can actually help communicate rather than shouting at people till you think they understand what you want.....
    Why would I want to slag you off. I do not like getting into angry dialogues and respect your wide reading. Also as I have a long affinity with Scots, not least being married to one for 54 years, and you are generally more to the left as a nation

    However, that does not prevent me calling Corbyn a hard left communist as are his inner circle
  • Options
    grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234


    Johnson doesn't need any of this to win the mandate of the Tory members, unless, of course, the rumour that a load of kippers and asorted other radical right wing fringers have a co-ordinated scheme to join the Tories as members in order to vote in leadership.

    Associates reporting 20-30 new members appearing overnight according to irrc Sunday Times.

    You're supposed to keep it quiet. If the 1922 get wind of a concerted attempt at entryism they will make damn sure Boris never gets put to the membership.

    Softly softly abusee muslimy
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,985

    I see Morris Dancer has been advising Penny Mordaunt.

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1026793851112091648

    Utterly fraudulent wearing of the Dolphins by Mordaunt there. Disgusting.
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    I see Morris Dancer has been advising Penny Mordaunt.

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1026793851112091648

    Most oldest?

    MOST oldest?
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    Johnson doesn't need any of this to win the mandate of the Tory members, unless, of course, the rumour that a load of kippers and asorted other radical right wing fringers have a co-ordinated scheme to join the Tories as members in order to vote in leadership.

    Associates reporting 20-30 new members appearing overnight according to irrc Sunday Times.

    You're supposed to keep it quiet. If the 1922 get wind of a concerted attempt at entryism they will make damn sure Boris never gets put to the membership.

    Softly softly abusee muslimy
    I didn't know you were a muslim?
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    grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    I see Morris Dancer has been advising Penny Mordaunt.

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1026793851112091648

    Most oldest?

    MOST oldest?
    So says the Penniest Mordaunter.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,192
    edited August 2018


    Johnson doesn't need any of this to win the mandate of the Tory members, unless, of course, the rumour that a load of kippers and asorted other radical right wing fringers have a co-ordinated scheme to join the Tories as members in order to vote in leadership.

    Associates reporting 20-30 new members appearing overnight according to irrc Sunday Times.

    You're supposed to keep it quiet. If the 1922 get wind of a concerted attempt at entryism they will make damn sure Boris never gets put to the membership.

    Softly softly abusee muslimy
    1922 will know if they read the Mail:

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1026025411065597952
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    grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234


    Johnson doesn't need any of this to win the mandate of the Tory members, unless, of course, the rumour that a load of kippers and asorted other radical right wing fringers have a co-ordinated scheme to join the Tories as members in order to vote in leadership.

    Associates reporting 20-30 new members appearing overnight according to irrc Sunday Times.

    You're supposed to keep it quiet. If the 1922 get wind of a concerted attempt at entryism they will make damn sure Boris never gets put to the membership.

    Softly softly abusee muslimy
    I didn't know you were a muslim?
    Apparently neither did I..?
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Why on earth would any Conservative want to be seen as the Remain leadership candidate? That's like wanting to be seen as the Everton candidate for next Liverpool manager.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983

    HYUFD said:

    UKIP has suspended three party members after protesters wearing Donald Trump masks and hats stormed a socialist bookshop.
    Police were called to Bookmarks, in central London, on Saturday to claims a group of demonstrators were "intimidating" staff and customers.
    https://news.sky.com/story/ukip-suspends-three-members-over-socialist-bookshop-incident-11464245

    Left-wing anarchists have attacked Jacob Rees Mogg's Somerset house and his wife's Land Rover while his family are on holiday in New York

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-somerset-45082053
    How do you know it was left-wing anarchists? Have the culprits been identified?
    The 'posh scum' graffiti gave the game away I think
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    Nigelb said:

    I see Morris Dancer has been advising Penny Mordaunt.

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1026793851112091648

    The modern conception of the nation state didn't come into existence until after WW1 anyway, so I think the argument is entirely meaningless.

    But Iceland's Parliament has sat nearly continuously since 930 AD so I think it has any constitutional body in Europe beaten by centuries.
    Iceland only became independent of Denmark about a century back - and an island essentially built out of volcanoes, and sitting athwart a divergent plate boundary, can hardly be described as 'stable'....
    Sunil utters a cough that sounds suspiciously like Eyjafjallajökul
  • Options
    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039

    Why on earth would any Conservative want to be seen as the Remain leadership candidate? That's like wanting to be seen as the Everton candidate for next Liverpool manager.

    I think that's Guido's spin on it. The implication is that there are two separate primaries taking place within the Parliamentary Party.

    In practice, candidates who can appeal to both sides, like Theresa May did, will be best placed.
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    HYUFD said:

    UKIP has suspended three party members after protesters wearing Donald Trump masks and hats stormed a socialist bookshop.
    Police were called to Bookmarks, in central London, on Saturday to claims a group of demonstrators were "intimidating" staff and customers.
    https://news.sky.com/story/ukip-suspends-three-members-over-socialist-bookshop-incident-11464245

    Left-wing anarchists have attacked Jacob Rees Mogg's Somerset house and his wife's Land Rover while his family are on holiday in New York

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-somerset-45082053
    How do you know it was left-wing anarchists? Have the culprits been identified?
    Are there are any right-wing anarchists? Genuine query.
  • Options

    I see Morris Dancer has been advising Penny Mordaunt.

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1026793851112091648

    Most oldest?

    MOST oldest?
    So says the Penniest Mordaunter.
    I think she looks alright :)
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    That @PritiPatel4PM account is a parody account. It may be correctly reporting Penny Mordaunt's words but proceed with caution.

    That said, Penny Mordaunt, if correctly reported, is simply showing the English nationalism that lies behind Brexit.
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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,709
    HYUFD said:

    UKIP has suspended three party members after protesters wearing Donald Trump masks and hats stormed a socialist bookshop.
    Police were called to Bookmarks, in central London, on Saturday to claims a group of demonstrators were "intimidating" staff and customers.
    https://news.sky.com/story/ukip-suspends-three-members-over-socialist-bookshop-incident-11464245

    Left-wing anarchists have attacked Jacob Rees Mogg's Somerset house and his wife's Land Rover while his family are on holiday in New York


    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-somerset-45082053
    So, does that mean it's OK for UKIP members to intimidate staff and customers, because vandals attacked JRM's house and car?
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052

    That @PritiPatel4PM account is a parody account. It may be correctly reporting Penny Mordaunt's words but proceed with caution.

    That said, Penny Mordaunt, if correctly reported, is simply showing the English nationalism that lies behind Brexit.

    The quote is accurate and comes from this 2016 article.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12173650/The-spirit-of-Dunkirk-will-see-us-thrive-outside-the-EU.html
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Why on earth would any Conservative want to be seen as the Remain leadership candidate? That's like wanting to be seen as the Everton candidate for next Liverpool manager.

    I think that's Guido's spin on it. The implication is that there are two separate primaries taking place within the Parliamentary Party.

    In practice, candidates who can appeal to both sides, like Theresa May did, will be best placed.
    I'm sure you're right about the first half. I'm not sure you're right about the second half. The coming Conservative leadership election looks likely to have more in common with Labour 2015 than Labour 2010.
  • Options

    Why on earth would any Conservative want to be seen as the Remain leadership candidate? That's like wanting to be seen as the Everton candidate for next Liverpool manager.

    I think that's Guido's spin on it. The implication is that there are two separate primaries taking place within the Parliamentary Party.

    In practice, candidates who can appeal to both sides, like Theresa May did, will be best placed.
    I'm sure you're right about the first half. I'm not sure you're right about the second half. The coming Conservative leadership election looks likely to have more in common with Labour 2015 than Labour 2010.
    Yeah, I mean Labour 2010 literally was brother stabbing brother in the back :)
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,590
    edited August 2018

    HYUFD said:

    UKIP has suspended three party members after protesters wearing Donald Trump masks and hats stormed a socialist bookshop.
    Police were called to Bookmarks, in central London, on Saturday to claims a group of demonstrators were "intimidating" staff and customers.
    https://news.sky.com/story/ukip-suspends-three-members-over-socialist-bookshop-incident-11464245

    Left-wing anarchists have attacked Jacob Rees Mogg's Somerset house and his wife's Land Rover while his family are on holiday in New York

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-somerset-45082053
    How do you know it was left-wing anarchists? Have the culprits been identified?
    Are there are any right-wing anarchists? Genuine query.
    Yes, they are often called Libertarians, but I rather liked the term Anarcho-Thatcherite used in this article:

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1026775485748072449?s=19

    Incidentally the Manx Tynwald claims to be the oldest continuous parliament in the world.
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    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,298

    Why on earth would any Conservative want to be seen as the Remain leadership candidate? That's like wanting to be seen as the Everton candidate for next Liverpool manager.

    Yes, the Tory equivalent of Labour's 'Keeper of the Blairite Flame'.
  • Options


    Johnson doesn't need any of this to win the mandate of the Tory members, unless, of course, the rumour that a load of kippers and asorted other radical right wing fringers have a co-ordinated scheme to join the Tories as members in order to vote in leadership.

    Associates reporting 20-30 new members appearing overnight according to irrc Sunday Times.

    You're supposed to keep it quiet. If the 1922 get wind of a concerted attempt at entryism they will make damn sure Boris never gets put to the membership.

    Softly softly abusee muslimy
    I didn't know you were a muslim?
    Apparently neither did I..?
    It’s my fault.

    All this hanging on PB means you get indoctrinated by good Muslim boy behaviour.
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    Mr Cunningham now being cross examined by Gordon Cole, barrister for Ben Stokes. He maintains he hadn’t seen CCTV footage before but saw video of the later brawl. Cole points out that he said he HAD seen it in his police statement. He says he didn’t.
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    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    HYUFD said:

    UKIP has suspended three party members after protesters wearing Donald Trump masks and hats stormed a socialist bookshop.
    Police were called to Bookmarks, in central London, on Saturday to claims a group of demonstrators were "intimidating" staff and customers.
    https://news.sky.com/story/ukip-suspends-three-members-over-socialist-bookshop-incident-11464245

    Left-wing anarchists have attacked Jacob Rees Mogg's Somerset house and his wife's Land Rover while his family are on holiday in New York

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-somerset-45082053
    How do you know it was left-wing anarchists? Have the culprits been identified?
    Are there are any right-wing anarchists? Genuine query.
    Most anarchists are right wing. But the left wing ones like Durrutti and Bakunin get a lot more attention.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,100
    Dura_Ace said:

    I see Morris Dancer has been advising Penny Mordaunt.

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1026793851112091648

    Utterly fraudulent wearing of the Dolphins by Mordaunt there. Disgusting.
    She is a Portsmouth MP and a Royal Navy Reservist. Is it possible she was awarded them in some "honorary submariner" capacity?
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,709

    HYUFD said:

    UKIP has suspended three party members after protesters wearing Donald Trump masks and hats stormed a socialist bookshop.
    Police were called to Bookmarks, in central London, on Saturday to claims a group of demonstrators were "intimidating" staff and customers.
    https://news.sky.com/story/ukip-suspends-three-members-over-socialist-bookshop-incident-11464245

    Left-wing anarchists have attacked Jacob Rees Mogg's Somerset house and his wife's Land Rover while his family are on holiday in New York

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-somerset-45082053
    How do you know it was left-wing anarchists? Have the culprits been identified?
    Are there are any right-wing anarchists? Genuine query.
    Most anarchists are right wing. But the left wing ones like Durrutti and Bakunin get a lot more attention.
    Right wingers tend to want 'less government', so on the way to being anarchist?
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:

    Sure. Apart from the fact it was predicted.

    Quite...
    real concerns to UK voters which are not being and will continue not to be addressed. Staying in an organisation faute de mieux is not really the basis for a successful policy. And it ignores the strains caused to our society and democracy by ignoring voters’ concerns.

    Those who want Brexit to be stopped or reversed or want to campaign to rejoin the EU need I think to address these points.
    Imagine if Germany had decided it was fed up with not getting its own way in the EU and voted to leave, then adopted a negotiating position of asking for the bits of EU membership that it liked without the obligations. The rest of Europe would have a duty to say, "I'm sorry, but you still can't have everything your own way, even if you have voted for it."

    The network of interdependence we have within the EU acts as an additional layer of constitutional checks and balances in the relations between European states, just as it was designed to be.
    You are ignoring my point. How do you reconcile membership of an organisation whose requirements are at odds with voters’s wishes? In a forced choice, which is more important: EU membership or democracy?

    I have to go out now. But will check in later. So don’t take my non-reply as rudeness.
    I think the reason Brexit is proving so difficult is partly that membership is not at odds with voters' wishes - people still expect the benefits of being part of an organisation like the EU to continue. If there were a genuine consensus that we wanted to leave there would be no problem. In your hypothetical forced choice I would choose democracy, but that doesn't impose obligations on any other states to make your democratic choice a palatable one.

    The challenge really is how to translate the desire for change at a European level into effective action in a democratic way. One state trying to blackmail the others isn't it.
    What benefits are the people expecting to continue?
    Well you could start with the exchange rate and our credit rating, two of the first casualties of the referendum result.
    The first is irrelevant and shouldn’t be a target of policy. The second is subjective and often wrong. The probability of the U.K. defaulting has not changed in my view as a result of the referendum result
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,807
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Of course immigration pushes up house prices. It's not the main factor, or the only factor - but it certainly creates an increase in demand..
    Yes, it's those bloody immigrants.

    Not a catastrophically ill advised decade of dangerously low interest rates, a shortage of supply, caused by failed public policy, and people living far longer.

    You're right it's just DA IMMIHGRUNTS
    Are you actually thick, or do you just like to give that impression ?
    I'd give the government two cheers for its housing policy. Outside London and some hotspots in the South East, prices haven't moved by much over the past ten years.


    Making buy to let less attractive, and whacking up stamp duty on high value properties have helped prevent house price inflation; at the same time, private housebuilding is approaching near record levels, assisted by more liberal planning laws.


    A long period of stagnant house prices, combined with increasing wages, is what this country needs.

  • Options
    kingbongokingbongo Posts: 393
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    UKIP has suspended three party members after protesters wearing Donald Trump masks and hats stormed a socialist bookshop.
    Police were called to Bookmarks, in central London, on Saturday to claims a group of demonstrators were "intimidating" staff and customers.
    https://news.sky.com/story/ukip-suspends-three-members-over-socialist-bookshop-incident-11464245

    Left-wing anarchists have attacked Jacob Rees Mogg's Somerset house and his wife's Land Rover while his family are on holiday in New York

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-somerset-45082053
    How do you know it was left-wing anarchists? Have the culprits been identified?
    Are there are any right-wing anarchists? Genuine query.
    Yes, they are often called Libertarians, but I rather liked the term Anarcho-Thatcherite used in this article:

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1026775485748072449?s=19

    Incidentally the Manx Tynwald claims to be the oldest continuous parliament in the world.
    The term always used to be anarcho-capitalism - I expect tacking the word ‘Thatcher’ on there ensures young Guardianistas know it is a BAD thing - though in this case it actually is. In fact if all these simplistic solutions could be labelled Thatcherite young innocents could be guided back to liberalism

    Corbo-Thatcherite, Trotskothatcherite, Marxist-Thatcherite etc - idiotic right wing authoritarians need to be labelled the opposite Corbofascist, Farageocorbynite etc
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914

    Mr Cunningham now being cross examined by Gordon Cole, barrister for Ben Stokes. He maintains he hadn’t seen CCTV footage before but saw video of the later brawl. Cole points out that he said he HAD seen it in his police statement. He says he didn’t.

    Where are you getting updates from ?

    https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cricket/ben-stokes-trial-live-updates-bristol-affray-gay-attack-england-cricket-latest-india-a8480681.html reckons they're in for lunch and the prosecutor is still going...
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    grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Sean_F said:


    I'd give the government two cheers for its housing policy. Outside London and some hotspots in the South East, prices haven't moved by much over the past ten years.

    London has its own problems of course. From the green belt to nimby intransigence and Russian oligarchs.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,212

    DavidL said:

    Anazina said:

    DavidL said:

    In other news this trial seems to be proceeding sub optimally: https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/ben-stokes-trial-live-latest-1865220

    This is always the way when the prosecution goes first. The tone will change entirely once the defence gets in on the act. Shades of the Nigella case.
    Absolutely not my experience over the last 30 years. I don't do much crime these days but when I did prosecute the low point of the Crown case was always when it closed. Defendants giving evidence nearly always improves things for the Crown. That is why so many accused choose not to give evidence.
    Is that because the defendants tend to be unconvincing in manner, or just because they are then exposed to detailed questioning that they could otherwise avoid?
    Both. Also when in cross the Prosecution can be a lot more imaginative with their questioning and suggestions than they can be in chief where they are really quite restricted. This allows them to plant a lot of ideas in the Jury's minds that they can advert to in their closing speech. As a rule of thumb in my experience calling the accused is a last throw of the dice when you are convinced you are going down anyway and don't want him complaining he never got a chance to "explain".
  • Options
    Pulpstar said:

    Mr Cunningham now being cross examined by Gordon Cole, barrister for Ben Stokes. He maintains he hadn’t seen CCTV footage before but saw video of the later brawl. Cole points out that he said he HAD seen it in his police statement. He says he didn’t.

    Where are you getting updates from ?

    https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cricket/ben-stokes-trial-live-updates-bristol-affray-gay-attack-england-cricket-latest-india-a8480681.html reckons they're in for lunch and the prosecutor is still going...
    Here

    https://news.sky.com/story/live-england-cricketer-ben-stokes-back-in-court-for-affray-outside-bristol-club-11464079
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,590


    Johnson doesn't need any of this to win the mandate of the Tory members, unless, of course, the rumour that a load of kippers and asorted other radical right wing fringers have a co-ordinated scheme to join the Tories as members in order to vote in leadership.

    Associates reporting 20-30 new members appearing overnight according to irrc Sunday Times.

    You're supposed to keep it quiet. If the 1922 get wind of a concerted attempt at entryism they will make damn sure Boris never gets put to the membership.

    Softly softly abusee muslimy
    I didn't know you were a muslim?
    Apparently neither did I..?
    It’s my fault.

    All this hanging on PB means you get indoctrinated by good Muslim boy behaviour.
    Is it catching then? I do notice that I no longer fancy bacon...
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,370
    edited August 2018
    Foxy said:


    Johnson doesn't need any of this to win the mandate of the Tory members, unless, of course, the rumour that a load of kippers and asorted other radical right wing fringers have a co-ordinated scheme to join the Tories as members in order to vote in leadership.

    Associates reporting 20-30 new members appearing overnight according to irrc Sunday Times.

    You're supposed to keep it quiet. If the 1922 get wind of a concerted attempt at entryism they will make damn sure Boris never gets put to the membership.

    Softly softly abusee muslimy
    I didn't know you were a muslim?
    Apparently neither did I..?
    It’s my fault.

    All this hanging on PB means you get indoctrinated by good Muslim boy behaviour.
    Is it catching then? I do notice that I no longer fancy bacon...
    A few weeks ago I read on twitter from a Tommy Robinson supporter that

    1) Muslims control the media

    2) You can catch Islam by standing close to Muslims or reading Muslim propaganda.

    Perhaps my jihad war on Hawaiian pizzas has had an impact on the attractiveness of eating pig food.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Europe Elects
    @EuropeElects

    UK, YouGov poll:

    CON-ECR: 38%
    LAB-S&D: 38%
    LDEM-ALDE: 10%
    UKIP-EFDD: 6%
    SNP/PCY-G/EFA: 4%
    Greens-G/EFA: 3%

    Field work: 30/07/18 – 31/07/18
    Sample size: 1,718"
  • Options
    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited August 2018

    Dura_Ace said:

    I see Morris Dancer has been advising Penny Mordaunt.

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1026793851112091648

    Utterly fraudulent wearing of the Dolphins by Mordaunt there. Disgusting.
    She is a Portsmouth MP and a Royal Navy Reservist. Is it possible she was awarded them in some "honorary submariner" capacity?
    *insert joke about 'going down' here*

    Obviously, it's beneath me to do so.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,100
    Foxy said:


    Johnson doesn't need any of this to win the mandate of the Tory members, unless, of course, the rumour that a load of kippers and asorted other radical right wing fringers have a co-ordinated scheme to join the Tories as members in order to vote in leadership.

    Associates reporting 20-30 new members appearing overnight according to irrc Sunday Times.

    You're supposed to keep it quiet. If the 1922 get wind of a concerted attempt at entryism they will make damn sure Boris never gets put to the membership.

    Softly softly abusee muslimy
    I didn't know you were a muslim?
    Apparently neither did I..?
    It’s my fault.

    All this hanging on PB means you get indoctrinated by good Muslim boy behaviour.
    Is it catching then? I do notice that I no longer fancy bacon...
    That just means you're Ed Miliband....
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    matt said:

    Scott_P said:

    If the politicians we have fuck it up then they will face the ballot box and can be removed.

    That's democracy.

    "let them eat sovereignty"

    It doesn't help the immediate catastrophe.
    Immediate catastrophes happen regularly. Even the worst case scenarios aren't as bad as 2007 and the evidence is that the risks have been overstated.

    Would you sacrifice democracy to avoid a single one off recession? I would not.
    Can we sacrifice your job and life first? You seem quite keen to do that for others.
    That's precisely what many in "the greatest generation" did. They sacrificed their lives to ensure we could be a free democracy.

    I'm not prepared to throw away their sacrifice on the altar of potentially avoiding a one off recession.

    So yes. Democracy and freedom are worth the loss of life. A recession is not.
  • Options
    Anorak said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I see Morris Dancer has been advising Penny Mordaunt.

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1026793851112091648

    Utterly fraudulent wearing of the Dolphins by Mordaunt there. Disgusting.
    She is a Portsmouth MP and a Royal Navy Reservist. Is it possible she was awarded them in some "honorary submariner" capacity?
    *insert joke about 'going down' here*

    Obviously, it's beneath me to do so.
    What's long, hard, and full of se....
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,985

    Dura_Ace said:

    I see Morris Dancer has been advising Penny Mordaunt.

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1026793851112091648

    Utterly fraudulent wearing of the Dolphins by Mordaunt there. Disgusting.
    She is a Portsmouth MP and a Royal Navy Reservist. Is it possible she was awarded them in some "honorary submariner" capacity?
    No such thing. You get your Dolphins at some point in your first operational cruise when you've demonstrated competence in key submariner skills like nuclear propulsion engineering and breathlessly silent wanking. She has not earned them and should have more respect for those that have.

    Even if she were qualified it's against regulations to wear them on civvies. I don't wear my albatross wings on my pajamas.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,807

    Sean_F said:


    I'd give the government two cheers for its housing policy. Outside London and some hotspots in the South East, prices haven't moved by much over the past ten years.

    London has its own problems of course. From the green belt to nimby intransigence and Russian oligarchs.
    House prices went crazy between 1996 and 2007, rising by 320%. Anyone who bought between say, 1992 and 2000, was guaranteed a huge profit. But, it had many bad results. Housing just rose out of reach for first time buyers, so after 2003, rates of home ownership began falling (they've stabilised since 2014). People began borrowing heavily against their homes to fuel current spending, so the trade deficit ballooned. Rising prices created an illusion of prosperity, even as real household incomes stagnated after 2003.

    Since 2007, house prices have risen by another 20%, but that masks an increase of 70% in London and parts of the South East, and close to zero in most of the rest of the country.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,100
    Anorak said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I see Morris Dancer has been advising Penny Mordaunt.

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1026793851112091648

    Utterly fraudulent wearing of the Dolphins by Mordaunt there. Disgusting.
    She is a Portsmouth MP and a Royal Navy Reservist. Is it possible she was awarded them in some "honorary submariner" capacity?
    *insert joke about 'going down' here*

    Obviously, it's beneath me to do so.
    Up periscope!
  • Options
    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,298
    Pulpstar said:

    Mr Cunningham now being cross examined by Gordon Cole, barrister for Ben Stokes. He maintains he hadn’t seen CCTV footage before but saw video of the later brawl. Cole points out that he said he HAD seen it in his police statement. He says he didn’t.

    Where are you getting updates from ?

    https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cricket/ben-stokes-trial-live-updates-bristol-affray-gay-attack-england-cricket-latest-india-a8480681.html reckons they're in for lunch and the prosecutor is still going...
    Perhaps he's in court, doing the cross-examinations.
  • Options
    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    That's precisely what many in "the greatest generation" did. They sacrificed their lives to ensure we could be a free democracy.

    I'm not prepared to throw away their sacrifice on the altar of potentially avoiding a one off recession.

    So yes. Democracy and freedom are worth the loss of life. A recession is not.

    Mental and utterly unspoofable.
  • Options
    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Anorak said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I see Morris Dancer has been advising Penny Mordaunt.

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1026793851112091648

    Utterly fraudulent wearing of the Dolphins by Mordaunt there. Disgusting.
    She is a Portsmouth MP and a Royal Navy Reservist. Is it possible she was awarded them in some "honorary submariner" capacity?
    *insert joke about 'going down' here*

    Obviously, it's beneath me to do so.
    Up periscope!
    Muff dive, dive, dive!
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    I see Morris Dancer has been advising Penny Mordaunt.

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1026793851112091648

    Major one we are

    France - are we on the 5th or 6th Republic now?

    Germany - creation, partition, reunification

    Italy - creation

    Spain - Facist dictatorship

    Benelux - not comparable but don’t forget they were briefly one country (as well as being conquered). Switzerland and Portugal too small.

    Sweden probably the strongest candidate but only just - they had a European Empire that they lost in the 1640-1680 period IIRC and they are only 1/8 our size

    Who do you have in mind?
  • Options
    Anorak said:

    That's precisely what many in "the greatest generation" did. They sacrificed their lives to ensure we could be a free democracy.

    I'm not prepared to throw away their sacrifice on the altar of potentially avoiding a one off recession.

    So yes. Democracy and freedom are worth the loss of life. A recession is not.

    Mental and utterly unspoofable.
    Hitler’s Germany was a democracy too.

    Just saying.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    edited August 2018

    Anorak said:

    That's precisely what many in "the greatest generation" did. They sacrificed their lives to ensure we could be a free democracy.

    I'm not prepared to throw away their sacrifice on the altar of potentially avoiding a one off recession.

    So yes. Democracy and freedom are worth the loss of life. A recession is not.

    Mental and utterly unspoofable.
    Hitler’s Germany was a democracy too.

    Just saying.
    No it wasn't. Not even officially.
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,988
    I see Donald Trump is threatening EU business who trade with Iran.

    Trump tweet "Anyone doing business with Iran will NOT be doing business with the United States".

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45098031

    The EU is introducing a blocking statute to protect European businesses but many European are sufficiently cowed by Trump's threat to stop trading with Iran.

    I would like to see the EU go further and provide a mechanism for businesses to reclaim damages from the US (from the European assets of US companies). "If the US illegally damages the interests of EU businesses, compensation will be extracted from US assets." The EU is as powerful an economic unit as the US and should not be bullied. The UK alone - well that's another matter.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    TOPPING said:

    Scott_P said:

    TGOHF said:

    So temporary then.

    We are clearly not going to agree on this, but the depth of the catastrophe is the issue.

    You can't typically come back from a temporary case of death. A future promise of oxygen is worthless when you have already suffocated. A ladder is no help when you are lying crushed on the rocks, etc...

    You think there will be no serious immediate and lasting damage, in the hope of something in the future.

    I think the damage of no deal, would be immediate and catastrophic.

    I hope it doesn't happen
    It doesn't have to be that dramatic.

    Leavers simply seem not to understand the time value of money, or the theory of discounting and NPV. The likely value destruction of Brexit is tragic.

    Doesn't matter too much of course if you are a well off Leaver, that said.
    What we need is a negotiator of Charles' calibre to step in and get us a deal *better than BATNA* to save jobs and keep things going as they are.
    No thanks!
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,100
    Anorak said:

    Anorak said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I see Morris Dancer has been advising Penny Mordaunt.

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1026793851112091648

    Utterly fraudulent wearing of the Dolphins by Mordaunt there. Disgusting.
    She is a Portsmouth MP and a Royal Navy Reservist. Is it possible she was awarded them in some "honorary submariner" capacity?
    *insert joke about 'going down' here*

    Obviously, it's beneath me to do so.
    Up periscope!
    Muff dive, dive, dive!
    We seem to have turned into Carry On Political Betting......
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,807

    Anorak said:

    That's precisely what many in "the greatest generation" did. They sacrificed their lives to ensure we could be a free democracy.

    I'm not prepared to throw away their sacrifice on the altar of potentially avoiding a one off recession.

    So yes. Democracy and freedom are worth the loss of life. A recession is not.

    Mental and utterly unspoofable.
    Hitler’s Germany was a democracy too.

    Just saying.
    Are you sure about that?
  • Options
    grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    Anorak said:

    That's precisely what many in "the greatest generation" did. They sacrificed their lives to ensure we could be a free democracy.

    I'm not prepared to throw away their sacrifice on the altar of potentially avoiding a one off recession.

    So yes. Democracy and freedom are worth the loss of life. A recession is not.

    Mental and utterly unspoofable.
    Hitler’s Germany was a democracy too.

    Just saying.
    Dunno about you, but I don't consider imprisoning your opponents generally in keeping with the spirit of fair play.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052
    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Scott_P said:

    TGOHF said:

    So temporary then.

    We are clearly not going to agree on this, but the depth of the catastrophe is the issue.

    You can't typically come back from a temporary case of death. A future promise of oxygen is worthless when you have already suffocated. A ladder is no help when you are lying crushed on the rocks, etc...

    You think there will be no serious immediate and lasting damage, in the hope of something in the future.

    I think the damage of no deal, would be immediate and catastrophic.

    I hope it doesn't happen
    It doesn't have to be that dramatic.

    Leavers simply seem not to understand the time value of money, or the theory of discounting and NPV. The likely value destruction of Brexit is tragic.

    Doesn't matter too much of course if you are a well off Leaver, that said.
    What we need is a negotiator of Charles' calibre to step in and get us a deal *better than BATNA* to save jobs and keep things going as they are.
    No thanks!
    But you promised that you and your family would see Brexit voters right. It's your duty! :)
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    I see Morris Dancer has been advising Penny Mordaunt.

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1026793851112091648

    The modern conception of the nation state didn't come into existence until after WW1 anyway, so I think the argument is entirely meaningless.

    But Iceland's Parliament has sat nearly continuously since 930 AD so I think it has any constitutional body in Europe beaten by centuries.
    Don’t the Manx dispute that?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181

    I see Morris Dancer has been advising Penny Mordaunt.

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1026793851112091648

    The modern conception of the nation state didn't come into existence until after WW1 anyway, so I think the argument is entirely meaningless.

    But Iceland's Parliament has sat nearly continuously since 930 AD so I think it has any constitutional body in Europe beaten by centuries.
    Completely wrong. Even if I considered the Reconquista or the Breton War not to be the founding of 'nation states,' how do you account for the Risorgimento or the unification of Germany in the 1860s if nation states only emerged after WW1? Or the Irish Home Rule movement from the 1830s?
  • Options
    Sean_F said:

    Anorak said:

    That's precisely what many in "the greatest generation" did. They sacrificed their lives to ensure we could be a free democracy.

    I'm not prepared to throw away their sacrifice on the altar of potentially avoiding a one off recession.

    So yes. Democracy and freedom are worth the loss of life. A recession is not.

    Mental and utterly unspoofable.
    Hitler’s Germany was a democracy too.

    Just saying.
    Are you sure about that?
    He won an election in 1933.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,807

    Sean_F said:

    Anorak said:

    That's precisely what many in "the greatest generation" did. They sacrificed their lives to ensure we could be a free democracy.

    I'm not prepared to throw away their sacrifice on the altar of potentially avoiding a one off recession.

    So yes. Democracy and freedom are worth the loss of life. A recession is not.

    Mental and utterly unspoofable.
    Hitler’s Germany was a democracy too.

    Just saying.
    Are you sure about that?
    He won an election in 1933.
    Very much a case of one man, one vote, once.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Clearly, in the wake of the 'Tommy Robinson' circus coming to town, Boris decided to base his relaunch around a controversial subject that would also win him the approbation of the hard Right. But it all looked clumsy and contrived, and the quips about letterboxes etc. just juvenile in that context. I think Boris has flunked it.
    Daily Mail comments yesterday were very pro Boris and he did not even propose to ban the full veil as say France and Denmark have done
    It just all seems so... scripted and obvious. Has one meeting with Bannon and suddenly the former Mayor of London Oh Oh Boris hates the Muslims now, does he?

    OH WELL, I'M SURE IT'S COMPLETELY GENUINE AND NOT SHITTY GAMBIT FROM A NARCISSISTIC MORAL VACUUM WHO WILL SAY AND DO ANYTHING TO GET NOTICED.

    Just imagine how thick you'd have to be to buy his Damascene conversion to Muslim hate.
    When did he ever say he hated Muslims? He even said he had read the Koran and could find no requirement for the full veil within it.

    57% of UK voters wanted to ban the burka in a 2016 poll including even 48% of Labour voters as well as a big majority of Tory and UKIP voters

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/08/31/majority-public-backs-burka-ban/
    I vaguely remember from reading Karen Armstrong that the burqa is *not* religious but *political*

    It was very rare in Islam until the British suzereignty of Egypt. We banned the burqa on the grounds it was sexist and demeaning to women. The result was it became a nationalist / anti-British symbol
  • Options
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Anorak said:

    That's precisely what many in "the greatest generation" did. They sacrificed their lives to ensure we could be a free democracy.

    I'm not prepared to throw away their sacrifice on the altar of potentially avoiding a one off recession.

    So yes. Democracy and freedom are worth the loss of life. A recession is not.

    Mental and utterly unspoofable.
    Hitler’s Germany was a democracy too.

    Just saying.
    Are you sure about that?
    He won an election in 1933.
    Very much a case of one man, one vote, once.
    Will of the people.
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    Anorak said:

    That's precisely what many in "the greatest generation" did. They sacrificed their lives to ensure we could be a free democracy.

    I'm not prepared to throw away their sacrifice on the altar of potentially avoiding a one off recession.

    So yes. Democracy and freedom are worth the loss of life. A recession is not.

    Mental and utterly unspoofable.
    Hitler’s Germany was a democracy too.

    Just saying.
    Not after the Enabling Act!
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    Sean_F said:

    Anorak said:

    That's precisely what many in "the greatest generation" did. They sacrificed their lives to ensure we could be a free democracy.

    I'm not prepared to throw away their sacrifice on the altar of potentially avoiding a one off recession.

    So yes. Democracy and freedom are worth the loss of life. A recession is not.

    Mental and utterly unspoofable.
    Hitler’s Germany was a democracy too.

    Just saying.
    Are you sure about that?
    He won an election in 1933.
    And he promptly passed the Enabling Act, which brought about 12 years of dictatorship.
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    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited August 2018
    To be fair to Boris (not a sentence I thought I'd say), I think his burqa comments fall into the "juvenile and stupid" category more than they do "racist". After all, it's not like a comparison to a letterbox is a commonly racist trope to my knowledge (though the comparison to a bank-robber is more questionable).

    That said, I can't help but notice there's some PBers who've been very silent on this topic, who I'm 100% convinced would've been in paroxysms of outrage if a Labour activist had been discovered to have tweeted some mocking comments about Orthodox Jewish dress.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,212
    Scott_P said:
    Does anyone really think that Corbyn is saying that they don't have a right to exist, are not a democracy etc? He is making the point that they push hard for positive comments about Israel which influences the reporting of their current behaviour.

    I mean I have a higher regard for the stuff I had to scrape off the bottom of my shoe this morning than I do for Corbyn but this is just silly.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Barnesian said:

    I see Donald Trump is threatening EU business who trade with Iran.

    Trump tweet "Anyone doing business with Iran will NOT be doing business with the United States".

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45098031

    The EU is introducing a blocking statute to protect European businesses but many European are sufficiently cowed by Trump's threat to stop trading with Iran.

    I would like to see the EU go further and provide a mechanism for businesses to reclaim damages from the US (from the European assets of US companies). "If the US illegally damages the interests of EU businesses, compensation will be extracted from US assets." The EU is as powerful an economic unit as the US and should not be bullied. The UK alone - well that's another matter.

    Why should US companies have assets confiscated because of the actions of their government?
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Danny565 said:

    To be fair to Boris (not a sentence I thought I'd say), I think his burqa comments fall into the "juvenile and stupid" category more than they do "racist". After all, it's not like a comparison to a letterbox is a commonly racist trope to my knowledge (though the comparison to a bank-robber is more questionable)...

    In isolation you'd be right, but you have to see the article in the context of heightened levels of concern about Islamophobia, and the exploitation of Islamophobia by extremist/populist politicians.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    edited August 2018

    Sean_F said:

    Anorak said:

    That's precisely what many in "the greatest generation" did. They sacrificed their lives to ensure we could be a free democracy.

    I'm not prepared to throw away their sacrifice on the altar of potentially avoiding a one off recession.

    So yes. Democracy and freedom are worth the loss of life. A recession is not.

    Mental and utterly unspoofable.
    Hitler’s Germany was a democracy too.

    Just saying.
    Are you sure about that?
    He won an election in 1933.
    1) That depends on your definition of win (could a Labour supporter helpfully say that May didn't win last year)?

    2) He was never actually elected to the office of President as required by Weimar which is where he technically derived his power from. On the only occasion he stood he came a poor second to an 84 year old war hero. He was appointed Reichkanzler by the president (which didn't require him to have a majority in the Reichstag) he simply assumed the office of President, merging it with the Chancellorship and creating the new office of 'Fuhrer;'

    3) The election of 1933 was agreed to be the last election by the cabinet as a whole, of which only three members were Nazis ('any return to the Democratic system is to be absolutely avoided').

    4) Subsequent plebiscites and elections (1934, 1936 and 1938) were marked by massive fraud and intimidation and offered no choice of candidates, and the questions offered only approval or disapproval of actions already taken - Hitler's assumption of the Presidency, the reoccupation of the Rhineland, and the Anschluss with Austria.

    4) All other parties were banned and laws were passed by decree.

    Not seeing this democracy lark.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Scott_P said:

    TGOHF said:

    So temporary then.

    We are clearly not going to agree on this, but the depth of the catastrophe is the issue.

    You can't typically come back from a temporary case of death. A future promise of oxygen is worthless when you have already suffocated. A ladder is no help when you are lying crushed on the rocks, etc...

    You think there will be no serious immediate and lasting damage, in the hope of something in the future.

    I think the damage of no deal, would be immediate and catastrophic.

    I hope it doesn't happen
    It doesn't have to be that dramatic.

    Leavers simply seem not to understand the time value of money, or the theory of discounting and NPV. The likely value destruction of Brexit is tragic.

    Doesn't matter too much of course if you are a well off Leaver, that said.
    What we need is a negotiator of Charles' calibre to step in and get us a deal *better than BATNA* to save jobs and keep things going as they are.
    No thanks!
    But you promised that you and your family would see Brexit voters right. It's your duty! :)
    Sure. But we served our time in politics and have largely retired from the fray.

    (Or in the case of uncle D bloody well ought to!)
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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:
    Does anyone really think that Corbyn is saying that they don't have a right to exist, are not a democracy etc? He is making the point that they push hard for positive comments about Israel which influences the reporting of their current behaviour.
    Oh come on. The 'right to exist' is something which not expressed by any other nation, and Corbyn is clearly questioning it. It shouldn't be something which is even in mind, and yet Corbyn has a issue with it.


  • Options
    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    edited August 2018
    Danny565 said:

    To be fair to Boris (not a sentence I thought I'd say), I think his burqa comments fall into the "juvenile and stupid" category more than they do "racist". After all, it's not like a comparison to a letterbox is a commonly racist trope to my knowledge (though the comparison to a bank-robber is more questionable).

    That said, I can't help but notice there's some PBers who've been very silent on this topic, who I'm 100% convinced would've been in paroxysms of outrage if a Labour activist had been discovered to have tweeted some mocking comments about Orthodox Jewish dress.

    It was utter stupid and offensive. Boris is a buffoon.

    Having said that, I do not like the Burka. It it in my opinion a clear method of oppression towards women.

    I have no issue with a headscarf or modest clothing to a certain degree.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    Danny565 said:

    To be fair to Boris (not a sentence I thought I'd say), I think his burqa comments fall into the "juvenile and stupid" category more than they do "racist". After all, it's not like a comparison to a letterbox is a commonly racist trope to my knowledge (though the comparison to a bank-robber is more questionable).

    That said, I can't help but notice there's some PBers who've been very silent on this topic, who I'm 100% convinced would've been in paroxysms of outrage if a Labour activist had been discovered to have tweeted some mocking comments about Orthodox Jewish dress.

    Has Boris Johnson ever actually said he isn't racist? Genuine question.
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    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    Anorak said:

    That's precisely what many in "the greatest generation" did. They sacrificed their lives to ensure we could be a free democracy.

    I'm not prepared to throw away their sacrifice on the altar of potentially avoiding a one off recession.

    So yes. Democracy and freedom are worth the loss of life. A recession is not.

    Mental and utterly unspoofable.
    Hitler’s Germany was a democracy too.

    Just saying.
    Are you sure about that?
    He won an election in 1933.
    1) That depends on your definition of win (could a Labour supporter helpfully say that May didn't win last year)?

    2) He was never actually elected to the office of President as required by Weimar. On the only occasion he stood he came a poor second to an 84 year old war hero. He was appointed Reichkanzler by the president (which didn't require him to have a majority in the Reichstag) he simply assumed the office of President, merging it with the Chancellorship and creating the new office of 'Fuhrer;'

    3) The election of 1933 was agreed to be the last election by the cabinet as a whole, of which only three members were Nazis ('any return to the Democratic system is to be absolutely avoided').

    4) Subsequent plebiscites and elections (1934, 1936 and 1938) were marked by massive fraud and intimidation and offered no choice of candidates, and the questions offered only approval or disapproval of actions already taken - Hitler's assumption of the Presidency, the reoccupation of the Rhineland, and the Anschluss with Austria.

    4) All other parties were banned and laws were passed by decree.

    Not seeing this democracy lark.
    Perhaps TSE is thinking GDR or DPRK versions of democracy :lol:
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    edited August 2018

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:
    Does anyone really think that Corbyn is saying that they don't have a right to exist, are not a democracy etc? He is making the point that they push hard for positive comments about Israel which influences the reporting of their current behaviour.
    Oh come on. The 'right to exist' is something which not expressed by any other nation, and Corbyn is clearly questioning it. It shouldn't be something which is even in mind, and yet Corbyn has a issue with it.


    I dunno. The SNP say something along those lines about the UK fairly often. :smile:

    Edit - more seriously we could add the following nations whose 'right to exist' is in some way disputed;

    Kosovo
    Chechnya
    Somaliland
    Taiwan
    Guyana (although that's a complicated question)
    Northern Cyprus
    Western Sahara
    To be mischievous, Palestine.

    I'm sure there are others.

    The difference - and it is a difference - is that nobody is proposing the forcible relocation of the inhabitants under foreign rule (at least not at the moment) of any state on that list except possibly Palestine.
This discussion has been closed.