Could make a case for England, or France. Many countries are surprisingly young (Italy, Germany, Spain). The difficulty is constitutional arrangements. France's current one is less than a century old. Likewise most countries. If the UK is considered a continuation/successor of England, and the monarchy a consistent thread, you could certainly go back to Alfred, maybe around 500 AD.
If you're going by territory, then it's the early 20th century.
A bit like 'Was the Eastern Roman Empire really the Roman Empire'? There are plenty of valid and differing perspectives. It's an interesting debate but there isn't really a right answer. And, if there were, it wouldn't really matter.
I'm involved in my first ever Twitter spat. I'm so proud. I'm currently fighting with some chap over the Priti Patel tweet re the Penny Morduant quote about the UK being the "oldest and most successful" country in Europe.
Isn't Vatican City the oldest and most successful country in Europe?
I would argue Switzerland is the most successful country in Europe, and France is probably the oldest.
The Vatican only technically became a country in 1929.
Wouldn't Greece be older? I wouldn't argue for it being the most successful country, mind.
It only become independent from the Ottomans in 1821.
Well France was hardly independent from Nazi Germany for a while! But rather than disappearing down a rabbit-hole of competing definitions, I'll withdraw.
I'm involved in my first ever Twitter spat. I'm so proud. I'm currently fighting with some chap over the Priti Patel tweet re the Penny Morduant quote about the UK being the "oldest and most successful" country in Europe.
Isn't Vatican City the oldest and most successful country in Europe?
I would argue Switzerland is the most successful country in Europe, and France is probably the oldest.
The Vatican only technically became a country in 1929.
I thought the Portugal/Spain border was the oldest border.
And Portugal and England have the oldest alliance, dating back to 14-something.
I'm involved in my first ever Twitter spat. I'm so proud. I'm currently fighting with some chap over the Priti Patel tweet re the Penny Morduant quote about the UK being the "oldest and most successful" country in Europe.
Isn't Vatican City the oldest and most successful country in Europe?
I would argue Switzerland is the most successful country in Europe, and France is probably the oldest.
The Vatican only technically became a country in 1929.
We’d probably never be able to agree either the criteria or the top candidate.
I think Switzerland is beautiful, but I also find Zurich boring, and you could kill yourself in Geneva on a Sunday, the food isn’t all that, and it’s rather too regulated for my liking.
I loved Geneva, I also took the train along the lake to Lausanne and Montreux.
I'm involved in my first ever Twitter spat. I'm so proud. I'm currently fighting with some chap over the Priti Patel tweet re the Penny Morduant quote about the UK being the "oldest and most successful" country in Europe.
Isn't Vatican City the oldest and most successful country in Europe?
I would argue Switzerland is the most successful country in Europe, and France is probably the oldest.
The Vatican only technically became a country in 1929.
Wouldn't Greece be older? I wouldn't argue for it being the most successful country, mind.
It only become independent from the Ottomans in 1821.
One could argue that Turkey only became independent of the Ottomans in 1923...
Could make a case for England, or France. Many countries are surprisingly young (Italy, Germany, Spain). The difficulty is constitutional arrangements. France's current one is less than a century old. Likewise most countries. If the UK is considered a continuation/successor of England, and the monarchy a consistent thread, you could certainly go back to Alfred, maybe around 500 AD.
If you're going by territory, then it's the early 20th century.
A bit like 'Was the Eastern Roman Empire really the Roman Empire'? There are plenty of valid and differing perspectives. It's an interesting debate but there isn't really a right answer. And, if there were, it wouldn't really matter.
Mr Dancer. Spain isn't that young, it's much older than Germany or Italy.
I'm involved in my first ever Twitter spat. I'm so proud. I'm currently fighting with some chap over the Priti Patel tweet re the Penny Morduant quote about the UK being the "oldest and most successful" country in Europe.
Isn't Vatican City the oldest and most successful country in Europe?
I would argue Switzerland is the most successful country in Europe, and France is probably the oldest.
The Vatican only technically became a country in 1929.
Wouldn't Greece be older? I wouldn't argue for it being the most successful country, mind.
It only become independent from the Ottomans in 1821.
Well France was hardly independent from Nazi Germany for a while! But rather than disappearing down a rabbit-hole of competing definitions, I'll withdraw.
But Greece wasn't Greece in any meaningful sense in classical times, it was thousands of city states, some in Greece but also in France, Italy, Turkey*, Africa and God knows where else.
Dr. Prasannan, it had to reconquer the land from the Muslims. Compared to (broad definition) England/France, it's relatively young.
But yes, much older than Germany or Italy.
Edited extra bit: Mr. Z, the Greeks, I think, also founded the city of Saguntum in Iberia. Hannibal destroyed it, kicking off the Second Punic War. [It was allied to Rome, who didn't exactly bust a gut rescuing it].
Denmark would surely be a contender for oldest country in Europe? Continuous recognised central government from the 9th century. France meanwhile wasn't properly unified until the Hundred Years' War, and was still divided and chaotic in the eighteenth century.
Well France was hardly independent from Nazi Germany for a while! But rather than disappearing down a rabbit-hole of competing definitions, I'll withdraw.
But Greece wasn't Greece in any meaningful sense in classical times, it was thousands of city states, some in Greece but also in France, Italy, Turkey*, Africa and God knows where else.
*xenophobic lie, obv.
I was always amazed how the Ottoman Empire grew so large, and lasted so long on an economy dedicated to producing upholstered storage boxes.
I bet the prosecution were head in hands when the bouncer keep referring to Stokes as that ginger...while telling a story of the ginger making nasty comments about his teeth and tattoos.
Ryan Hale’s barrister Stephen Murray now back on his feet with more questions for DC Adams. Asks about Alex Hales - does DC Adams think he can be seen kicking a man in the head? Yes, says DC Adams. “Mr Stoke’s colleague has stamped down of Ryan Ali and kicked him.” Adams agrees
What? Then why was he not charged as well? What on earth is going on here?
I saw Alex Hales in a bar in an hotel where the England team were staying. Let's just say that his reported height of 6ft 5inches really doesn't do him justice. He is a giant of a man.
This has also been puzzling me in the reports he tried to stop Stokes and got brushed off. Really? Someone of that size and physique?
None of this is making sense at the moment. I'm wondering if the drunk was an officer on ASC.
ASC? - altered state of consciousness?
Avon and Somerset Constabulary.
Although they are in my fortunately limited experience of them 'at a slight angle to the universe.'
Project Fear from the NFU - The Tory Party of the Soil.
It's certainly not the right time to be considering a ban on the consumption of dogs.
That article is estimating when the UK could run out of food if we had to be wholly self sufficient in food, which no-one is suggesting.
That would suggest the EU could impose an absolute economic blockade on the UK’s ability to trade with it and the rest of the world way more effective than the Kriegsmarine managed in WWII.
Fact for the day: we import a smaller proportion of the calories we eat today than in 1900.
I’ll bite; where did you find that factoid, as well as your statement a few weeks ago that Europe imports less energy now than 30/40 years ago?
Not questioning the veracity, would just like to know
Could make a case for England, or France. Many countries are surprisingly young (Italy, Germany, Spain). The difficulty is constitutional arrangements. France's current one is less than a century old. Likewise most countries. If the UK is considered a continuation/successor of England, and the monarchy a consistent thread, you could certainly go back to Alfred, maybe around 500 AD.
If you're going by territory, then it's the early 20th century.
A bit like 'Was the Eastern Roman Empire really the Roman Empire'? There are plenty of valid and differing perspectives. It's an interesting debate but there isn't really a right answer. And, if there were, it wouldn't really matter.
France’s current constitution is 60 years old. An infant really.
I had one of the worst meals of my life in Zurich - pasta with cranberry sauce. Utterly disgusting.
Could make a case for England, or France. Many countries are surprisingly young (Italy, Germany, Spain). The difficulty is constitutional arrangements. France's current one is less than a century old. Likewise most countries. If the UK is considered a continuation/successor of England, and the monarchy a consistent thread, you could certainly go back to Alfred, maybe around 500 AD.
If you're going by territory, then it's the early 20th century.
A bit like 'Was the Eastern Roman Empire really the Roman Empire'? There are plenty of valid and differing perspectives. It's an interesting debate but there isn't really a right answer. And, if there were, it wouldn't really matter.
France’s current constitution is 60 years old. An infant really.
I had one of the worst meals of my life in Zurich - pasta with cranberry sauce. Utterly disgusting.
That was an interesting choice. Not sure I would have gone for that.
Could make a case for England, or France. Many countries are surprisingly young (Italy, Germany, Spain). The difficulty is constitutional arrangements. France's current one is less than a century old. Likewise most countries. If the UK is considered a continuation/successor of England, and the monarchy a consistent thread, you could certainly go back to Alfred, maybe around 500 AD.
If you're going by territory, then it's the early 20th century.
A bit like 'Was the Eastern Roman Empire really the Roman Empire'? There are plenty of valid and differing perspectives. It's an interesting debate but there isn't really a right answer. And, if there were, it wouldn't really matter.
France’s current constitution is 60 years old. An infant really.
I had one of the worst meals of my life in Zurich - pasta with cranberry sauce. Utterly disgusting.
That was an interesting choice. Not sure I would have gone for that.
Project Fear from the NFU - The Tory Party of the Soil.
It's certainly not the right time to be considering a ban on the consumption of dogs.
That article is estimating when the UK could run out of food if we had to be wholly self sufficient in food, which no-one is suggesting.
That would suggest the EU could impose an absolute economic blockade on the UK’s ability to trade with it and the rest of the world way more effective than the Kriegsmarine managed in WWII.
China is a tricky one because although the Empire lasted thousands of years there were at least three distinct breaks in the twentieth century - the Republic, the Kuomintang and Mao - and it really isn't clear that in the first one, possibly two effective government was maintained.
Project Fear from the NFU - The Tory Party of the Soil.
It's certainly not the right time to be considering a ban on the consumption of dogs.
That article is estimating when the UK could run out of food if we had to be wholly self sufficient in food, which no-one is suggesting.
That would suggest the EU could impose an absolute economic blockade on the UK’s ability to trade with it and the rest of the world way more effective than the Kriegsmarine managed in WWII.
"Das EU-Boot."
Pause.
HERE ALL WEEK, FOLKS!
[drops mike]
With jokes like that you should be up in Edinburgh at the Fringe.
Alex Hales behaviour seems odd here, why would he try and apparently stop Stokes then kick a man when he's down ? That's disturbing.
Just maybe because the guy swung at him with a bottle? But yes, it is a typically confusing situation. Presumably Hales was smart enough to keep his mouth shut when interviewed.
I could watch that video time and again by the American lawyer who explains why one should never say anything ever when arrested.
Project Fear from the NFU - The Tory Party of the Soil.
It's certainly not the right time to be considering a ban on the consumption of dogs.
That article is estimating when the UK could run out of food if we had to be wholly self sufficient in food, which no-one is suggesting.
That would suggest the EU could impose an absolute economic blockade on the UK’s ability to trade with it and the rest of the world way more effective than the Kriegsmarine managed in WWII.
"Das EU-Boot."
Pause.
HERE ALL WEEK, FOLKS!
[drops mike]
I invented the "EU Boat menace" years ago, I'll have you know!
It's so bloody obvious what the game is. What's depressing is that it's being fallen for again.
As Boris gets older, his window of opportunity narrows, and so his strategy becomes more obvious and less sophisticated. Given the pace of demographic change in his part of London, plus the people he has already let down over the airport, he is gambling in last chance saloon.
China is a tricky one because although the Empire lasted thousands of years there were at least three distinct breaks in the twentieth century - the Republic, the Kuomintang and Mao - and it really isn't clear that in the first one, possibly two effective government was maintained.
Project Fear from the NFU - The Tory Party of the Soil.
It's certainly not the right time to be considering a ban on the consumption of dogs.
That article is estimating when the UK could run out of food if we had to be wholly self sufficient in food, which no-one is suggesting.
That would suggest the EU could impose an absolute economic blockade on the UK’s ability to trade with it and the rest of the world way more effective than the Kriegsmarine managed in WWII.
"Das EU-Boot."
Pause.
HERE ALL WEEK, FOLKS!
[drops mike]
If the EU had a fleet of U-boats threatening to impose an absolute blockade on the UK in the event of no deal, then I’d be worried about food shortages.
Dr. Prasannan, it had to reconquer the land from the Muslims. Compared to (broad definition) England/France, it's relatively young.
But yes, much older than Germany or Italy.
Edited extra bit: Mr. Z, the Greeks, I think, also founded the city of Saguntum in Iberia. Hannibal destroyed it, kicking off the Second Punic War. [It was allied to Rome, who didn't exactly bust a gut rescuing it].
Denmark's being going a while, as well.
And those Vikings have been successful acting through a variety of nation states over a very long period.
I'm involved in my first ever Twitter spat. I'm so proud. I'm currently fighting with some chap over the Priti Patel tweet re the Penny Morduant quote about the UK being the "oldest and most successful" country in Europe.
Isn't Vatican City the oldest and most successful country in Europe?
I would argue Switzerland is the most successful country in Europe, and France is probably the oldest.
The Vatican only technically became a country in 1929.
We’d probably never be able to agree either the criteria or the top candidate.
I think Switzerland is beautiful, but I also find Zurich boring, and you could kill yourself in Geneva on a Sunday, the food isn’t all that, and it’s rather too regulated for my liking.
I loved Geneva, I also took the train along the lake to Lausanne and Montreux.
It's so bloody obvious what the game is. What's depressing is that it's being fallen for again.
As Boris gets older, his window of opportunity narrows, and so his strategy becomes more obvious and less sophisticated. Given the pace of demographic change in his part of London, plus the people he has already let down over the airport, he is gambling in last chance saloon.
China is a tricky one because although the Empire lasted thousands of years there were at least three distinct breaks in the twentieth century - the Republic, the Kuomintang and Mao - and it really isn't clear that in the first one, possibly two effective government was maintained.
The Margraviate of Austria dates from 976.
Yes, but it was conquered by the Habsburgs in 1279, and the name revived on the extinction of the Holy Roman Empire.
I don't think we can say it's older than Denmark, Russia, Man or even France.
Project Fear from the NFU - The Tory Party of the Soil.
It's certainly not the right time to be considering a ban on the consumption of dogs.
That article is estimating when the UK could run out of food if we had to be wholly self sufficient in food, which no-one is suggesting.
That would suggest the EU could impose an absolute economic blockade on the UK’s ability to trade with it and the rest of the world way more effective than the Kriegsmarine managed in WWII.
"Das EU-Boot."
Pause.
HERE ALL WEEK, FOLKS!
[drops mike]
With jokes like that you should be up in Edinburgh at the Fringe.
(Do not take that as a compliment by the way).
I invented the "EU Boat menace" years ago, I'll have you know!
Isn't Vatican City the oldest and most successful country in Europe?
God no (pun unintended). It's a byproduct of Italian unification, IIRC. The Catholic Church has been around for quite a while, but that's not the same thing exactly.
I'd go for Portugal: border has been stable for the longest. Penny exhibits the same annoying blindspot as a ginormous number of Conservatives; she conflates England with British with Great Britain with the UK, and they are all subtly different.
England's been within it's present borders since the 1100's (here is a map from 1086: spot's what's missing: h ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesday_Book#/media/File:DomesdayCountyCircuitsMap.png), but the UK within its present borders dates from the 1920's since Southern Ireland left (parenthetically I can never work out the exact date Norn Iron became part of the UK, it's not an intuitive point).
It's so bloody obvious what the game is. What's depressing is that it's being fallen for again.
As Boris gets older, his window of opportunity narrows, and so his strategy becomes more obvious and less sophisticated. Given the pace of demographic change in his part of London, plus the people he has already let down over the airport, he is gambling in last chance saloon.
Alex Hales behaviour seems odd here, why would he try and apparently stop Stokes then kick a man when he's down ? That's disturbing.
Just maybe because the guy swung at him with a bottle? But yes, it is a typically confusing situation. Presumably Hales was smart enough to keep his mouth shut when interviewed.
I could watch that video time and again by the American lawyer who explains why one should never say anything ever when arrested.
Thought it was an ex-copper? Either way I agree it's really, really good.
Could make a case for England, or France. Many countries are surprisingly young (Italy, Germany, Spain). The difficulty is constitutional arrangements. France's current one is less than a century old. Likewise most countries. If the UK is considered a continuation/successor of England, and the monarchy a consistent thread, you could certainly go back to Alfred, maybe around 500 AD.
If you're going by territory, then it's the early 20th century.
A bit like 'Was the Eastern Roman Empire really the Roman Empire'? There are plenty of valid and differing perspectives. It's an interesting debate but there isn't really a right answer. And, if there were, it wouldn't really matter.
France’s current constitution is 60 years old. An infant really.
I had one of the worst meals of my life in Zurich - pasta with cranberry sauce. Utterly disgusting.
Surely you only order a dish like that if you want something that is only going to trouble your insides for a very short period of time?
Project Fear from the NFU - The Tory Party of the Soil.
It's certainly not the right time to be considering a ban on the consumption of dogs.
That article is estimating when the UK could run out of food if we had to be wholly self sufficient in food, which no-one is suggesting.
That would suggest the EU could impose an absolute economic blockade on the UK’s ability to trade with it and the rest of the world way more effective than the Kriegsmarine managed in WWII.
"Das EU-Boot."
Pause.
HERE ALL WEEK, FOLKS!
[drops mike]
With jokes like that you should be up in Edinburgh at the Fringe.
(Do not take that as a compliment by the way).
I invented the "EU Boat menace" years ago, I'll have you know!
Mrs Stodge loves Lucerne and Interlaken - I'm more a fan of Lago Maggiore and the Bodensee but there you go.
So Boris is apparently a "liberal" - well, there's a surprise. If it walks a duck and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck. It's nice of him to tell us all what a liberal is.
Project Fear from the NFU - The Tory Party of the Soil.
It's certainly not the right time to be considering a ban on the consumption of dogs.
That article is estimating when the UK could run out of food if we had to be wholly self sufficient in food, which no-one is suggesting.
That would suggest the EU could impose an absolute economic blockade on the UK’s ability to trade with it and the rest of the world way more effective than the Kriegsmarine managed in WWII.
EU flunkies vs Tesco logistics managers - I know who my money is on.
Mr. B2, aye, someone else mentioned Denmark too. Hmm. May be the oldest in Europe, but I think Japan must have a good shout for being the oldest nation still existent. Depends a lot how you determine things, though.
I'm involved in my first ever Twitter spat. I'm so proud. I'm currently fighting with some chap over the Priti Patel tweet re the Penny Morduant quote about the UK being the "oldest and most successful" country in Europe.
Isn't Vatican City the oldest and most successful country in Europe?
I would argue Switzerland is the most successful country in Europe, and France is probably the oldest.
The Vatican only technically became a country in 1929.
We’d probably never be able to agree either the criteria or the top candidate.
I think Switzerland is beautiful, but I also find Zurich boring, and you could kill yourself in Geneva on a Sunday, the food isn’t all that, and it’s rather too regulated for my liking.
The Ticino is brilliant, though. Italian culture and food, combined with German efficiency.
Isn't Vatican City the oldest and most successful country in Europe?
God no (pun unintended). It's a byproduct of Italian unification, IIRC. The Catholic Church has been around for quite a while, but that's not the same thing exactly.
I'd go for Portugal: border has been stable for the longest. Penny exhibits the same annoying blindspot as a ginormous number of Conservatives; she conflates England with British with Great Britain with the UK, and they are all subtly different.
England's been within it's present borders since the 1100's (here is a map from 1086: spot's what's missing: h ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesday_Book#/media/File:DomesdayCountyCircuitsMap.png), but the UK within its present borders dates from the 1920's since Southern Ireland left (parenthetically I can never work out the exact date Norn Iron became part of the UK, it's not an intuitive point).
You mean we had Liverpool and you took it back? Big mistake.
Isn't Vatican City the oldest and most successful country in Europe?
God no (pun unintended). It's a byproduct of Italian unification, IIRC. The Catholic Church has been around for quite a while, but that's not the same thing exactly.
I'd go for Portugal: border has been stable for the longest. Penny exhibits the same annoying blindspot as a ginormous number of Conservatives; she conflates England with British with Great Britain with the UK, and they are all subtly different.
England's been within it's present borders since the 1100's (here is a map from 1086: spot's what's missing: h ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesday_Book#/media/File:DomesdayCountyCircuitsMap.png), but the UK within its present borders dates from the 1920's since Southern Ireland left (parenthetically I can never work out the exact date Norn Iron became part of the UK, it's not an intuitive point).
What's missing from England? Monmouthshire? Berwick on Tweed?
Dr. Prasannan, Iran? Which went through the mill of Assyria, the Medes, Persia (a high point, of course), the Macedonian Empire, the Seleucids, the Parthians, and then the Persians again?
Continuous that is not.
Mr. Anorak, I remember that from the time. Very eye-opening.
Could make a case for England, or France. Many countries are surprisingly young (Italy, Germany, Spain). The difficulty is constitutional arrangements. France's current one is less than a century old. Likewise most countries. If the UK is considered a continuation/successor of England, and the monarchy a consistent thread, you could certainly go back to Alfred, maybe around 500 AD.
If you're going by territory, then it's the early 20th century.
A bit like 'Was the Eastern Roman Empire really the Roman Empire'? There are plenty of valid and differing perspectives. It's an interesting debate but there isn't really a right answer. And, if there were, it wouldn't really matter.
France’s current constitution is 60 years old. An infant really.
I had one of the worst meals of my life in Zurich - pasta with cranberry sauce. Utterly disgusting.
Surely you only order a dish like that if you want something that is only going to trouble your insides for a very short period of time?
Faute de mieux. It was either that or going to bed hungry.
I'm involved in my first ever Twitter spat. I'm so proud. I'm currently fighting with some chap over the Priti Patel tweet re the Penny Morduant quote about the UK being the "oldest and most successful" country in Europe.
Isn't Vatican City the oldest and most successful country in Europe?
I would argue Switzerland is the most successful country in Europe, and France is probably the oldest.
The Vatican only technically became a country in 1929.
Wouldn't Greece be older? I wouldn't argue for it being the most successful country, mind.
I don't think that Greece can be said to have existed before 1821.
The Emperors of Constantinople got rather pissed off if people called them Greeks, rather than Romans. Hellas was simply one of the Themes of the Empire (and excluded much of modern Greece, such as Thessalonika.
In classical times, Hellas meant anywhere that Hellenes lived, including Sicily and Southern Italy, the coasts of the Black Sea and Marseilles
Ryan Hale’s barrister Stephen Murray now back on his feet with more questions for DC Adams. Asks about Alex Hales - does DC Adams think he can be seen kicking a man in the head? Yes, says DC Adams. “Mr Stoke’s colleague has stamped down of Ryan Ali and kicked him.” Adams agrees
What? Then why was he not charged as well? What on earth is going on here?
I saw Alex Hales in a bar in an hotel where the England team were staying. Let's just say that his reported height of 6ft 5inches really doesn't do him justice. He is a giant of a man.
This has also been puzzling me in the reports he tried to stop Stokes and got brushed off. Really? Someone of that size and physique?
None of this is making sense at the moment. I'm wondering if the drunk was an officer on ASC.
ASC? - altered state of consciousness?
Avon and Somerset Constabulary.
Although they are in my fortunately limited experience of them 'at a slight angle to the universe.'
I know what they are like. I've seen Hot Fuzz.....
Isn't Vatican City the oldest and most successful country in Europe?
God no (pun unintended). It's a byproduct of Italian unification, IIRC. The Catholic Church has been around for quite a while, but that's not the same thing exactly.
I'd go for Portugal: border has been stable for the longest. Penny exhibits the same annoying blindspot as a ginormous number of Conservatives; she conflates England with British with Great Britain with the UK, and they are all subtly different.
England's been within it's present borders since the 1100's (here is a map from 1086: spot's what's missing: h ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesday_Book#/media/File:DomesdayCountyCircuitsMap.png), but the UK within its present borders dates from the 1920's since Southern Ireland left (parenthetically I can never work out the exact date Norn Iron became part of the UK, it's not an intuitive point).
What's missing from England? Monmouthshire? Berwick on Tweed?
Mr. B2, aye, someone else mentioned Denmark too. Hmm. May be the oldest in Europe, but I think Japan must have a good shout for being the oldest nation still existent. Depends a lot how you determine things, though.
Yep, Denmark is a really old country. From where most of the Vikings came from, even though we tend to think that Vikings means fjords and Norway. Vikings ran England under Cnut and took over for a second time when William from Norman(Northeman)dy gained control and banished all the Saxons to peasantry for centuries thereafter. The Vikings sacked Rome, arguably founded Russia via the Rus, and settled in various parts of Europe including Sicily and Sardinia. And they 'discovered' America and settled in Iceland - another very old country. For a small part of the world their influence on subsequent history has been truly dramatic.
Isn't Vatican City the oldest and most successful country in Europe?
God no (pun unintended). It's a byproduct of Italian unification, IIRC. The Catholic Church has been around for quite a while, but that's not the same thing exactly.
I'd go for Portugal: border has been stable for the longest. Penny exhibits the same annoying blindspot as a ginormous number of Conservatives; she conflates England with British with Great Britain with the UK, and they are all subtly different.
England's been within it's present borders since the 1100's (here is a map from 1086: spot's what's missing: h ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesday_Book#/media/File:DomesdayCountyCircuitsMap.png), but the UK within its present borders dates from the 1920's since Southern Ireland left (parenthetically I can never work out the exact date Norn Iron became part of the UK, it's not an intuitive point).
What's missing from England? Monmouthshire? Berwick on Tweed?
Edit: Calais?
Top left-hand-corner. Carlisle/Cumberland/Cumbria. Was part of Strathclyde in 1066 and not in England. By 1092 bits of it were sorted out: Cumberland went to England and is now part of Cumbria, the rest went to Scotland. People are so used to seeing the English/Scottish border as a diagonal line they don't notice the absence, and since it's a sparsely populated area it's little remarked upon, but it is a difference.
Could make a case for England, or France. Many countries are surprisingly young (Italy, Germany, Spain). The difficulty is constitutional arrangements. France's current one is less than a century old. Likewise most countries. If the UK is considered a continuation/successor of England, and the monarchy a consistent thread, you could certainly go back to Alfred, maybe around 500 AD.
If you're going by territory, then it's the early 20th century.
A bit like 'Was the Eastern Roman Empire really the Roman Empire'? There are plenty of valid and differing perspectives. It's an interesting debate but there isn't really a right answer. And, if there were, it wouldn't really matter.
France’s current constitution is 60 years old. An infant really.
I had one of the worst meals of my life in Zurich - pasta with cranberry sauce. Utterly disgusting.
Surely you only order a dish like that if you want something that is only going to trouble your insides for a very short period of time?
Faute de mieux. It was either that or going to bed hungry.
You'll have to advise us as to what extent going to bed after throwing up pasta and cranberry is an improvement on hunger...
Ryan Hale’s barrister Stephen Murray now back on his feet with more questions for DC Adams. Asks about Alex Hales - does DC Adams think he can be seen kicking a man in the head? Yes, says DC Adams. “Mr Stoke’s colleague has stamped down of Ryan Ali and kicked him.” Adams agrees
What? Then why was he not charged as well? What on earth is going on here?
I saw Alex Hales in a bar in an hotel where the England team were staying. Let's just say that his reported height of 6ft 5inches really doesn't do him justice. He is a giant of a man.
This has also been puzzling me in the reports he tried to stop Stokes and got brushed off. Really? Someone of that size and physique?
None of this is making sense at the moment. I'm wondering if the drunk was an officer on ASC.
ASC? - altered state of consciousness?
Avon and Somerset Constabulary.
Although they are in my fortunately limited experience of them 'at a slight angle to the universe.'
I know what they are like. I've seen Hot Fuzz.....
Could make a case for England, or France. Many countries are surprisingly young (Italy, Germany, Spain). The difficulty is constitutional arrangements. France's current one is less than a century old. Likewise most countries. If the UK is considered a continuation/successor of England, and the monarchy a consistent thread, you could certainly go back to Alfred, maybe around 500 AD.
If you're going by territory, then it's the early 20th century.
A bit like 'Was the Eastern Roman Empire really the Roman Empire'? There are plenty of valid and differing perspectives. It's an interesting debate but there isn't really a right answer. And, if there were, it wouldn't really matter.
France’s current constitution is 60 years old. An infant really.
I had one of the worst meals of my life in Zurich - pasta with cranberry sauce. Utterly disgusting.
Surely you only order a dish like that if you want something that is only going to trouble your insides for a very short period of time?
Faute de mieux. It was either that or going to bed hungry.
During World War II, San Marino remained neutral, although it was wrongly reported in an article from The New York Times that it had declared war on the United Kingdom on 17 September 1940.[16] The Sammarinese government later transmitted a message to the British government stating that they had not declared war on the United Kingdom.[17]
Could make a case for England, or France. Many countries are surprisingly young (Italy, Germany, Spain). The difficulty is constitutional arrangements. France's current one is less than a century old. Likewise most countries. If the UK is considered a continuation/successor of England, and the monarchy a consistent thread, you could certainly go back to Alfred, maybe around 500 AD.
If you're going by territory, then it's the early 20th century.
A bit like 'Was the Eastern Roman Empire really the Roman Empire'? There are plenty of valid and differing perspectives. It's an interesting debate but there isn't really a right answer. And, if there were, it wouldn't really matter.
France’s current constitution is 60 years old. An infant really.
I had one of the worst meals of my life in Zurich - pasta with cranberry sauce. Utterly disgusting.
I had sour cherry vareniki (ravioli) when in Moscow. Very tasty indeed.
Ryan Hale’s barrister Stephen Murray now back on his feet with more questions for DC Adams. Asks about Alex Hales - does DC Adams think he can be seen kicking a man in the head? Yes, says DC Adams. “Mr Stoke’s colleague has stamped down of Ryan Ali and kicked him.” Adams agrees
What? Then why was he not charged as well? What on earth is going on here?
I saw Alex Hales in a bar in an hotel where the England team were staying. Let's just say that his reported height of 6ft 5inches really doesn't do him justice. He is a giant of a man.
This has also been puzzling me in the reports he tried to stop Stokes and got brushed off. Really? Someone of that size and physique?
None of this is making sense at the moment. I'm wondering if the drunk was an officer on ASC.
ASC? - altered state of consciousness?
Avon and Somerset Constabulary.
Although they are in my fortunately limited experience of them 'at a slight angle to the universe.'
I know what they are like. I've seen Hot Fuzz.....
During World War II, San Marino remained neutral, although it was wrongly reported in an article from The New York Times that it had declared war on the United Kingdom on 17 September 1940.[16] The Sammarinese government later transmitted a message to the British government stating that they had not declared war on the United Kingdom.[17]
Ryan Hale’s barrister Stephen Murray now back on his feet with more questions for DC Adams. Asks about Alex Hales - does DC Adams think he can be seen kicking a man in the head? Yes, says DC Adams. “Mr Stoke’s colleague has stamped down of Ryan Ali and kicked him.” Adams agrees
What? Then why was he not charged as well? What on earth is going on here?
I saw Alex Hales in a bar in an hotel where the England team were staying. Let's just say that his reported height of 6ft 5inches really doesn't do him justice. He is a giant of a man.
This has also been puzzling me in the reports he tried to stop Stokes and got brushed off. Really? Someone of that size and physique?
None of this is making sense at the moment. I'm wondering if the drunk was an officer on ASC.
ASC? - altered state of consciousness?
Avon and Somerset Constabulary.
Although they are in my fortunately limited experience of them 'at a slight angle to the universe.'
I know what they are like. I've seen Hot Fuzz.....
During World War II, San Marino remained neutral, although it was wrongly reported in an article from The New York Times that it had declared war on the United Kingdom on 17 September 1940.[16] The Sammarinese government later transmitted a message to the British government stating that they had not declared war on the United Kingdom.[17]
If we want really longstanding countries, is Egypt a candidate?
Possibly, but I think that in order to qualify, there needs to be some political continuity.
For Europe, I think that the correct answer is Denmark, since as said upthread, it's been an independent monarchy since the 10th century (even if its boundaries have fluctuated).
During World War II, San Marino remained neutral, although it was wrongly reported in an article from The New York Times that it had declared war on the United Kingdom on 17 September 1940.[16] The Sammarinese government later transmitted a message to the British government stating that they had not declared war on the United Kingdom.[17]
And that's why Berwick upon Tweed has been at war with Russia since 1856.
The BBC programme Nationwide investigated this story in the 1970s, and found that while Berwick was not mentioned in the Treaty of Paris [concluding the Crimean War], it was not mentioned in the declaration of war either. The question remained as to whether Berwick had ever been at war with Russia in the first place. The true situation is that since the Wales and Berwick Act 1746 had already made it clear that all references to England included Berwick, the town had no special status at either the start or end of the war.
Mr. B2, aye, someone else mentioned Denmark too. Hmm. May be the oldest in Europe, but I think Japan must have a good shout for being the oldest nation still existent. Depends a lot how you determine things, though.
Yep, Denmark is a really old country. From where most of the Vikings came from, even though we tend to think that Vikings means fjords and Norway. Vikings ran England under Cnut and took over for a second time when William from Norman(Northeman)dy gained control and banished all the Saxons to peasantry for centuries thereafter. The Vikings sacked Rome, arguably founded Russia via the Rus, and settled in various parts of Europe including Sicily and Sardinia. And they 'discovered' America and settled in Iceland - another very old country. For a small part of the world their influence on subsequent history has been truly dramatic.
In a sense, they overran England twice, as the Angles/Saxons/Jutes came from Denmark and adjoining parts of Northern Germany. The Norse aimed more for Scotland, Ireland, Normandy, and the Isle of Man.
Burkha or Niqab ? Nuns effectively wear the burkha . It is the Niqab where there is a slit for the eyes only.
With the burkha you can see the whole face.
When I was going to Yemen in the mid-90s, the women there were completely covered - not even anywhere for Boris to post his letters. You couldn't even see their feet to see which way they were pointing.
Mr. B2, aye, someone else mentioned Denmark too. Hmm. May be the oldest in Europe, but I think Japan must have a good shout for being the oldest nation still existent. Depends a lot how you determine things, though.
Yep, Denmark is a really old country. From where most of the Vikings came from, even though we tend to think that Vikings means fjords and Norway. Vikings ran England under Cnut and took over for a second time when William from Norman(Northeman)dy gained control and banished all the Saxons to peasantry for centuries thereafter. The Vikings sacked Rome, arguably founded Russia via the Rus, and settled in various parts of Europe including Sicily and Sardinia. And they 'discovered' America and settled in Iceland - another very old country. For a small part of the world their influence on subsequent history has been truly dramatic.
Denmark has the oldest flag in the world. The Dannebrog.
The modern idea of the nation state didn't emerge until after World War 1 so the entire question is meaningless.
If we're talking about the longest, unbroken, polity then Imperial China, stretching unbroken for nearly 4000 years, seems to be a winner.
Or at least it would be if the commies didn't eat it.
Didn't the Mongols conquer China for a while?
Yes. Kublai Khan established the Yuan dynasty, but the Imperial system of government continued largely unchanged.
In most of China, they obliterated it. Natives were mostly excluded from any position of influence under the Mongols. The traditional examination system for the appointment of civil servants was abandoned in favour of patronage, which mostly favoured Mongols. The Ming viewed them very much as foreign interlopers, and portrayed their campaign against them in that light. For political reasons now, the Chinese government portrays the Yuan as a Chinese dynasty, but they're rewriting history.
The Ching dynasty is a good example of a group of foreigners (Manchus) who became Chinese, and kept the same system in place that they inherited from the Ming, but the Yuan were different. They made it clear that the Chinese were a conquered people.
Comments
Could make a case for England, or France. Many countries are surprisingly young (Italy, Germany, Spain). The difficulty is constitutional arrangements. France's current one is less than a century old. Likewise most countries. If the UK is considered a continuation/successor of England, and the monarchy a consistent thread, you could certainly go back to Alfred, maybe around 500 AD.
If you're going by territory, then it's the early 20th century.
A bit like 'Was the Eastern Roman Empire really the Roman Empire'? There are plenty of valid and differing perspectives. It's an interesting debate but there isn't really a right answer. And, if there were, it wouldn't really matter.
Strong right cross by Stokes.
https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1026846629767380993
*xenophobic lie, obv.
Dr. Prasannan, it had to reconquer the land from the Muslims. Compared to (broad definition) England/France, it's relatively young.
But yes, much older than Germany or Italy.
Edited extra bit: Mr. Z, the Greeks, I think, also founded the city of Saguntum in Iberia. Hannibal destroyed it, kicking off the Second Punic War. [It was allied to Rome, who didn't exactly bust a gut rescuing it].
[Taxi for one!]
Although they are in my fortunately limited experience of them 'at a slight angle to the universe.'
Not questioning the veracity, would just like to know
https://twitter.com/RobDotHutton/status/1026841474481221633
I had one of the worst meals of my life in Zurich - pasta with cranberry sauce. Utterly disgusting.
Bizarre however that the police would issue a caution if they had footage of him stamping on someone.
https://twitter.com/MirrorAsp/status/1026847485640237056
In Europe? Austria needs some thinking about.
Pause.
HERE ALL WEEK, FOLKS!
[drops mike]
China is a tricky one because although the Empire lasted thousands of years there were at least three distinct breaks in the twentieth century - the Republic, the Kuomintang and Mao - and it really isn't clear that in the first one, possibly two effective government was maintained.
And are we dating China from the Qin dynasty (3rd century BC)?
Mr. Doethur, indeed. Japan has had an emperor for a long old time, of course.
(Do not take that as a compliment by the way).
The right of politicians to be arseholes without consequence is quite another matter.
And those Vikings have been successful acting through a variety of nation states over a very long period.
https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1026850213183582208
I don't think we can say it's older than Denmark, Russia, Man or even France.
I'd go for Portugal: border has been stable for the longest. Penny exhibits the same annoying blindspot as a ginormous number of Conservatives; she conflates England with British with Great Britain with the UK, and they are all subtly different.
England's been within it's present borders since the 1100's (here is a map from 1086: spot's what's missing: h ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesday_Book#/media/File:DomesdayCountyCircuitsMap.png), but the UK within its present borders dates from the 1920's since Southern Ireland left (parenthetically I can never work out the exact date Norn Iron became part of the UK, it's not an intuitive point).
I really will get my coat. Have a good evening.
EDIT: You were right: ex defense attorney. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE
(shorter versions are available)
Mrs Stodge loves Lucerne and Interlaken - I'm more a fan of Lago Maggiore and the Bodensee but there you go.
So Boris is apparently a "liberal" - well, there's a surprise. If it walks a duck and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck. It's nice of him to tell us all what a liberal is.
Edit: Calais?
FWIW San Marino was my answer.
Japan as 400 AD
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_date_of_formation#Sortable_list
Continuous that is not.
Mr. Anorak, I remember that from the time. Very eye-opening.
The Emperors of Constantinople got rather pissed off if people called them Greeks, rather than Romans. Hellas was simply one of the Themes of the Empire (and excluded much of modern Greece, such as Thessalonika.
In classical times, Hellas meant anywhere that Hellenes lived, including Sicily and Southern Italy, the coasts of the Black Sea and Marseilles
Because clearly it has, and this is no longer the phoney war bit.
During World War II, San Marino remained neutral, although it was wrongly reported in an article from The New York Times that it had declared war on the United Kingdom on 17 September 1940.[16] The Sammarinese government later transmitted a message to the British government stating that they had not declared war on the United Kingdom.[17]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Marino
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sengoku_period
For Europe, I think that the correct answer is Denmark, since as said upthread, it's been an independent monarchy since the 10th century (even if its boundaries have fluctuated).
If we're talking about the longest, unbroken, polity then Imperial China, stretching unbroken for nearly 4000 years, seems to be a winner.
Or at least it would be if the commies didn't eat it.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/wilbur-ross-alleged-to-have-siphoned-more-than-120-million-from-associates-forbes-report-2018-08-07/
The Ching dynasty is a good example of a group of foreigners (Manchus) who became Chinese, and kept the same system in place that they inherited from the Ming, but the Yuan were different. They made it clear that the Chinese were a conquered people.