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  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,957
    edited August 2018

    @HYUFD's great hope in New Zealand seems to have gone off message.

    "There isn’t much we don’t agree on with the EU, like minded friends in an uncertain world. "

    https://twitter.com/MFATgovtNZ/status/1026640462965178368

    Not at all. The fact Winston Peters wants good relations with the EU in no way contradicts his earlier claim a UK New Zealand trade deal 'is an absolute priority'

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11663367

    Even May has said she wants good UK EU relations
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,029
    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD's great hope in New Zealand seems to have gone off message.

    "There isn’t much we don’t agree on with the EU, like minded friends in an uncertain world. "

    https://twitter.com/MFATgovtNZ/status/1026640462965178368

    Not at all. The fact Winston Peters wants good relations with the EU in no way contradicts his earlier claim a UK EU trade deal 'is an absolute priority

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11663367

    Even May has said she wants good EU relations
    He's going to get his UK trade deal from Cecilia Malmström, not Liam Fox, and your article is over 2 years old.
  • Options
    LordOfReasonLordOfReason Posts: 457
    edited August 2018
    ydoethur said:

    MikeL said:

    Have these MORI leadership numbers been debated on here yet (per Britain Elects):

    https://twitter.com/britainelects?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

    There is a general assumption the Conservatives *will* knife May before the next election. There's an easy mechanism for the PCP to remove her, and a general agreement among MPs that she shouldn't stay.

    There is a general assumption that Corbyn will not be removed, because there is actually no way to remove him. All avenues have been tried, and failed. As I have said before, I think there is a non-trivial chance he will quit next year on turning 70, but if he doesn't there's no realistic way of removing him. (I think the only person that doesn't apply to is Macdonnell - if he resigns Corbyn might well have to go too).

    But i think those figures are more or less irrelevant until we have a leadership slugfest in one party or the other. If by some peculiar catastrophe Boris gets in we'll rapidly become nostalgic for May.
    When the conservatives have the bounce of a fresh new leader, does that not undermine Corbyns support outside and inside his party. I say it does, even as far to say, if one of those two main party leaders go it will lead to the other going.

    Secondly, when you say everything has been tried and failed to remove Corbyn, you are talking rubbish. No one of any substance has been on ballot against him in a leadership election, basically because the political mood was still too close to being in power, the hunger and discipline for their ideas not yet there, Labour always drifts leftward straight after election defeats.

    Politics is the art of the possible. You don’t publicly say what you think till the win is in the bag, or else you are merely making enemies, stirring trouble for yourself. You sense the mood, if you aren’t going to win, you keep your powder dry till the mood swings.

    I give you an example that proves my point, the counterfactual where Milliband didn’t resign after his first election defeat is set in a place where Corbin is nowhere near leadership of the Labour Party, no clamour for him, the idea is on nobody’s lips. That could easily have happened.
  • Options
    ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    edited August 2018

    @HYUFD's great hope in New Zealand seems to have gone off message.

    "There isn’t much we don’t agree on with the EU, like minded friends in an uncertain world. "

    https://twitter.com/MFATgovtNZ/status/1026640462965178368

    When the leavers proposed deals with The Commonwealth the remainers chorused how pathetic. I seem to recall remainers saying how small the NZ economy was and they were basically a noddy economy,
    Now the sainted EU has been spurned by Trump, China, et al, New Zealand is suddenly a massive win for the EU. The EU is only begging NZ for a deal because the Power Players think they are a bunch of clowns.
    CETA. Canadian negotiator walks out goes home, EU says OK deal, Walloon says "oh no we need our say," Walloon pacified, EU deal on, Italy 2 years later says "Oh no we are going to veto,"

    Who in the world wants to deal with these clowns.
    The number one rule of negotiating is talk to/put up a person that can make the decisions.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,957
    edited August 2018

    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD's great hope in New Zealand seems to have gone off message.

    "There isn’t much we don’t agree on with the EU, like minded friends in an uncertain world. "

    https://twitter.com/MFATgovtNZ/status/1026640462965178368

    Not at all. The fact Winston Peters wants good relations with the EU in no way contradicts his earlier claim a UK EU trade deal 'is an absolute priority

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11663367

    Even May has said she wants good EU relations
    He's going to get his UK trade deal from Cecilia Malmström, not Liam Fox, and your article is over 2 years old.
    I know you have more loyalty to Brussels than your own country and are desperate to see Brexit Britain fail but Peters backed Brexit even before the EU referendum as a chance for the UK to strengthen Commonwealth ties.

    Plus of course it took 7 years for the EU to do a FTA with Canada.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/politics/647528/New-Zealand-Winston-Peters-Brexit-heal-rift-Commonwealth-free-trade/amp
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,703
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD's great hope in New Zealand seems to have gone off message.

    "There isn’t much we don’t agree on with the EU, like minded friends in an uncertain world. "

    https://twitter.com/MFATgovtNZ/status/1026640462965178368

    Not at all. The fact Winston Peters wants good relations with the EU in no way contradicts his earlier claim a UK EU trade deal 'is an absolute priority

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11663367

    Even May has said she wants good EU relations
    He's going to get his UK trade deal from Cecilia Malmström, not Liam Fox, and your article is over 2 years old.
    I know you have more loyalty to Brussels than your own country and are desperate to see Brexit Britain fail but Peters backed Brexit even before the EU referendum as a chance for the UK to strengthen Commonwealth ties.

    Plus of course it took 7 years for the EU yo do a FTA with Canada.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/politics/647528/New-Zealand-Winston-Peters-Brexit-heal-rift-Commonwealth-free-trade/amp
    "I know you have more loyalty to Brussels than your own country"
    It's not fair to insult someone just because they disagree with you.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,957
    edited August 2018

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD's great hope in New Zealand seems to have gone off message.

    "There isn’t much we don’t agree on with the EU, like minded friends in an uncertain world. "

    https://twitter.com/MFATgovtNZ/status/1026640462965178368

    Not at all. The fact Winston Peters wants good relations with the EU in no way contradicts his earlier claim a UK EU trade deal 'is an absolute priority

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11663367

    Even May has said she wants good EU relations
    He's going to get his UK trade deal from Cecilia Malmström, not Liam Fox, and your article is over 2 years old.
    I know you have more loyalty to Brussels than your own country and are desperate to see Brexit Britain fail but Peters backed Brexit even before the EU referendum as a chance for the UK to strengthen Commonwealth ties.

    Plus of course it took 7 years for the EU yo do a FTA with Canada.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/politics/647528/New-Zealand-Winston-Peters-Brexit-heal-rift-Commonwealth-free-trade/amp
    "I know you have more loyalty to Brussels than your own country"
    It's not fair to insult someone just because they disagree with you.
    It was not an insult, it was a statement of fact.


    William Glenn has frequently said he wants to see the UK broken up and absorbed into a Federal EU superstate
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,029
  • Options
    grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    HYUFD said:


    It was not an insult, it was a statement of fact

    You really can be a petty, chippy little weasel when the mood takes you, Huffy old chum.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,088
    edited August 2018
    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    MikeL said:

    Have these MORI leadership numbers been debated on here yet (per Britain Elects):

    "The Labour Party should change its leader before the next general election":

    Agree: 55%
    Disagree: 27%

    "The Conservative Party should change its leader before the next general election":

    Agree: 46%
    Disagree: 31%

    Yet there is universal agreement that Con must change leader but not Lab?

    Suggests Lab may struggle if Corbyn is leader at next GE?

    https://twitter.com/britainelects?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

    There is a general assumption the Conservatives *will* knife May before the next election. There's an easy mechanism for the PCP to remove her, and a general agreement among MPs that she shouldn't stay.

    There is a general assumption that Corbyn will not be removed, because there is actually no way to remove him. All avenues have been tried, and failed. As I have said before, I think there is a non-trivial chance he will quit next year on turning 70, but if he doesn't there's no realistic way of removing him. (I think the only person that doesn't apply to is Macdonnell - if he resigns Corbyn might well have to go too).

    But i think those figures are more or less irrelevant until we have a leadership slugfest in one party or the other. If by some peculiar catastrophe Boris gets in we'll rapidly become nostalgic for May.
    The Tories under Boris would face a ticking time bomb of scandal in the way the Liberals faced one under Thorpe.
    Thorpe was the most electorally successful Liberal leader since Lloyd George and 4 years after his trial the SDP Liberal Alliance got 23%.

    Though I doubt Boris will be accused of orchestrating a murder plot
    ... but was only a couple of notches down with the Darius Guppie affair, so who knows? Over the last few weeks Boris has played an absolute blinder. The resignation and now the niqab dog whistling is a stroke of genius, endearing him not only to the right of the party but also to the majority of the electorate. It is a little bit naughty, but Machiavellian gold!
  • Options
    NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311
    edited August 2018
    rcs1000 said:

    brendan16 said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Anorak said:

    Mr Meeks was right. All part of the plan... [@Tissue - don't you hate it when that happens :) ]
    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1026841313361178624

    It's so bloody obvious what the game is. What's depressing is that it's being fallen for again.
    As Boris gets older, his window of opportunity narrows, and so his strategy becomes more obvious and less sophisticated. Given the pace of demographic change in his part of London, plus the people he has already let down over the airport, he is gambling in last chance saloon.
    :lol: This is mischievous:

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1026850213183582208
    On the other hand, traditionally you do use a whip on an arse.

    I really will get my coat. Have a good evening.

    IanB2 said:

    Anorak said:

    Mr Meeks was right. All part of the plan... [@Tissue - don't you hate it when that happens :) ]
    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1026841313361178624

    It's so bloody obvious what the game is. What's depressing is that it's being fallen for again.

    I'm OK with a burqua ban, so long as we're also banning balaclavas. A person has the right to wear what they want to wear. (And I include swastikas and KKK outfits.) You have no right not to be offended.

    The lines are: 1. Are women being forced to wear burqas? (Or indeed, anything else.) And 2. Are you inciting violence?
    I’m not sure I agree with that. It should be like free speech - symbols (swastika) and slogans of hate should be restricted. Other that that people should be free to wear what they want. Surely we are not suggesting that for community integration we all need to get our clothes at Tesco or M&S?

    The concern about Johnson’s comments is that the style of clothes is a proxy for skin colour / religion. It is striking though that lots of people oppose absolutely everything he says because it’s him. I’d love some polling on Jeremy Corbyn said x y z, and Boris Johnson said x y z do you agree? They could do a mix and see how people changed dependent on person. Aaaaaargh messed up editing
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,280
    Cyclefree said:

    Good. Maybe the Irish will stop being idiots and come back to the table. Maybe resume the work the unilaterally dropped on sorting the border issue out before they decided they could annex Northern Ireland instead.
    There were two comments by Lucinda Creighton in that report which caught my eye. The first is that EU officials think the UK leaving has nothing to do with them. That lack of self-reflection by EU officials is possibly one of the reasons why the UK is leaving.

    The second, more worrying for the Irish I’d have thought, was the statement that while EU officials had sympathy with the Irish over the border, they were not sympathetic over broader economic issues. Not sure quite what that encompasses but it must worry the Irish. If there really is no deal, they will be expected to put up a hard border anyway and then what?
    Both of those struck me as well. I’ve said for some time I think the Irish are being used.

    As far as the EU goes it’s acting like a dumped teenager: it’s not me, it’s you.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,957

    HYUFD said:


    It was not an insult, it was a statement of fact

    You really can be a petty, chippy little weasel when the mood takes you, Huffy old chum.
    What is 'chippy' about wanting to keep my country, the UK together and out of a Federal EU superstate as opposed to Mr Glenn who wants to break up the UK in order to absorb it in an EU superstate? If that makes me petty and chippy then I proudly wear the label!
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    Cyclefree said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Was what he said Islamaphobia, really? He was defending the right of people to wear a burqa.
    I don’t think you do that by insulting those wearing it.

    Boris is such an arse. His big project, Brexit, is going down in flames. He leaves the scene of battle and instead of trying to come up with some half-way intelligent / practical solution he focuses on a minor issue and does so in a twattish way.

    If he was genuinely concerned about the plight of Muslim women why didn’t he follow up on the stories the Times has been publishing all week about the abuse of the family visa system and the systematic rape and forced marriage of young British girls taken off to the third world?
    Not defending the man, more questioning the use of the phrase islamaphobic. As you said, he was just being an arse.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,957

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    MikeL said:

    Have these MORI leadership numbers been debated on here yet (per Britain Elects):

    "The Labour Party should change its leader before the next general election":

    Agree: 55%
    Disagree: 27%

    "The Conservative Party should change its leader before the next general election":

    Agree: 46%
    Disagree: 31%

    Yet there is universal agreement that Con must change leader but not Lab?

    Suggests Lab may struggle if Corbyn is leader at next GE?

    https://twitter.com/britainelects?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

    There is a general assumption the Conservatives *will* knife May before the next election. There's an easy mechanism for the PCP to remove her, and a general agreement among MPs that she shouldn't stay.

    There is a general assumption that Corbyn will not be removed, because there is actually no way to remove him. All avenues have been tried, and failed. As I have said before, I think there is a non-trivial chance he will quit next year on turning 70, but if he doesn't there's no realistic way of removing him. (I think the only person that doesn't apply to is Macdonnell - if he resigns Corbyn might well have to go too).

    But i think those figures are more or less irrelevant until we have a leadership slugfest in one party or the other. If by some peculiar catastrophe Boris gets in we'll rapidly become nostalgic for May.
    The Tories under Boris would face a ticking time bomb of scandal in the way the Liberals faced one under Thorpe.
    Thorpe was the most electorally successful Liberal leader since Lloyd George and 4 years after his trial the SDP Liberal Alliance got 23%.

    Though I doubt Boris will be accused of orchestrating a murder plot
    ... but was only a couple of notches down with the Darius Guppie affair, so who knows? Over the last few weeks Boris has played an absolute blinder. The resignation and now the niqab dog whistling is a stroke of genius, endearing him not only to the right of the party but also to the majority of the electorate. It is a little bit naughty, but Machiavellian gold!
    As I have frequently said as long as you have charisma skeletons in your closet rarely matter in politics unless they really are so big nobody could escape them
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,280
    Cyclefree said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Was what he said Islamaphobia, really? He was defending the right of people to wear a burqa.
    I don’t think you do that by insulting those wearing it.

    Boris is such an arse. His big project, Brexit, is going down in flames. He leaves the scene of battle and instead of trying to come up with some half-way intelligent / practical solution he focuses on a minor issue and does so in a twattish way.

    If he was genuinely concerned about the plight of Muslim women why didn’t he follow up on the stories the Times has been publishing all week about the abuse of the family visa system and the systematic rape and forced marriage of young British girls taken off to the third world?
    If we get our history right (and Dave certainly hasn’t forgotten this) it was Gove’s big project, which Boris jumped on the back of. Rather late in the day as it happened.

    I thought he actually performed quite well in the debates, he dressed, acted and prepared properly, and gave a hint he knew what high office required.

    But, that all proved to be a mirage.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited August 2018
    O/T

    A cold front must have just passed over the centre of England, it actually feels a bit chilly now. A couple of hours ago it was still hot.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,280
    rcs1000 said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    surby said:
    It's certainly not the right time to be considering a ban on the consumption of dogs.
    That article is estimating when the UK could run out of food if we had to be wholly self sufficient in food, which no-one is suggesting.

    That would suggest the EU could impose an absolute economic blockade on the UK’s ability to trade with it and the rest of the world way more effective than the Kriegsmarine managed in WWII.
    Fact for the day: we import a smaller proportion of the calories we eat today than in 1900.
    I’ll bite; where did you find that factoid, as well as your statement a few weeks ago that Europe imports less energy now than 30/40 years ago?

    Not questioning the veracity, would just like to know :smile:
    The energy one is easy. BP produces the Statistical Review of World Energy every year (and has done for 67 years). In it, it contains year-by-year consumption, production, and import/export of each major fuel type.

    And imports - in Europe - have fallen because fossil fuel usage has come down sharply since the 1970s. Mostly this is because coal and oil usage have fallen sharply. (Oil consumption is down about 30% from the peak in most countries. Coal is more than 50%.) Natural gas consumption has increased, but not enough to compensate for the dramatic falls in the other two fossil fuels.

    Some of this improvement is due to renewables, but we're also a lot more efficient than we used to be. Passenger cars in the 1970s rarely got more than 20mpg. It's not uncommon now to find vehicles that do 50. Electricity demand has been on a downward trend for a decade, as we move to LEDs and more efficient appliances.

    Re food: it was in a history/economics article on the UK at the beginning of World War 1. I will dig it out. Here's an article that says that in 1871 we imported 40% of our food.
    Whilst that’s all good it doesn’t help global climate change much unless India, China, the Emirates and the US come to the party, and the rest of the developed world leapfrog to where Europe is heading now.

    Basically, I don’t think there’s any alternative but to take climate change on the chin for the next 30-50 years and mitigate as best we can.

    Those who expect the world to decarbonise overnight to avoid ecological disaster are living a fantasy. These things can only happen progressively and slowly.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,544

    @HYUFD's great hope in New Zealand seems to have gone off message.

    "There isn’t much we don’t agree on with the EU, like minded friends in an uncertain world. "

    https://twitter.com/MFATgovtNZ/status/1026640462965178368

    When the leavers proposed deals with The Commonwealth the remainers chorused how pathetic. I seem to recall remainers saying how small the NZ economy was and they were basically a noddy economy,
    Now the sainted EU has been spurned by Trump, China, et al, New Zealand is suddenly a massive win for the EU. The EU is only begging NZ for a deal because the Power Players think they are a bunch of clowns.
    CETA. Canadian negotiator walks out goes home, EU says OK deal, Walloon says "oh no we need our say," Walloon pacified, EU deal on, Italy 2 years later says "Oh no we are going to veto,"

    Who in the world wants to deal with these clowns.
    The number one rule of negotiating is talk to/put up a person that can make the decisions.
    The EU has also just concluded an FTA with Japan, to add to Korea.

    Remind me how many FTAs the three Brexiteers have sorted...
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,280

    Boris Johnson’s stance is going to be very popular.

    Yes, it will.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,280

    @HYUFD's great hope in New Zealand seems to have gone off message.

    "There isn’t much we don’t agree on with the EU, like minded friends in an uncertain world. "

    https://twitter.com/MFATgovtNZ/status/1026640462965178368

    NZ are currently negotiating a FTA with the EU.

    It’s called diplomacy. Hunt was doing it last week by buttering up France. NZ have done it with us too by emphasising our shared bonds and history, and helping us out with trade negotiators too.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,088
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    MikeL said:

    Have these MORI leadership numbers been debated on here yet (per Britain Elects):

    "The Labour Party should change its leader before the next general election":

    Agree: 55%
    Disagree: 27%

    "The Conservative Party should change its leader before the next general election":

    Agree: 46%
    Disagree: 31%

    Yet there is universal agreement that Con must change leader but not Lab?

    Suggests Lab may struggle if Corbyn is leader at next GE?

    https://twitter.com/britainelects?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

    There is a general assumption the Conservatives *will* knife May before the next election. There's an easy mechanism for the PCP to remove her, and a general agreement among MPs that she shouldn't stay.

    There is a general assumption that Corbyn will not be removed, because there is actually no way to remove him. All avenues have been tried, and failed. As I have said before, I think there is a non-trivial chance he will quit next year on turning 70, but if he doesn't there's no realistic way of removing him. (I think the only person that doesn't apply to is Macdonnell - if he resigns Corbyn might well have to go too).

    But i think those figures are more or less irrelevant until we have a leadership slugfest in one party or the other. If by some peculiar catastrophe Boris gets in we'll rapidly become nostalgic for May.
    The Tories under Boris would face a ticking time bomb of scandal in the way the Liberals faced one under Thorpe.
    Thorpe was the most electorally successful Liberal leader since Lloyd George and 4 years after his trial the SDP Liberal Alliance got 23%.

    Though I doubt Boris will be accused of orchestrating a murder plot
    ... but was only a couple of notches down with the Darius Guppie affair, so who knows? Over the last few weeks Boris has played an absolute blinder. The resignation and now the niqab dog whistling is a stroke of genius, endearing him not only to the right of the party but also to the majority of the electorate. It is a little bit naughty, but Machiavellian gold!
    As I have frequently said as long as you have charisma skeletons in your closet rarely matter in politics unless they really are so big nobody could escape them
    The normal rules don't apply to Johnson.

    I am at the point where we have to give him the Premiership he craves, so he will once and for all stop doing anymore irreperable damage. Surely if we give him what he wants and protect his position for a set number of years he will calm down the potentially dangerous rhetoric.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,280

    @HYUFD's great hope in New Zealand seems to have gone off message.

    "There isn’t much we don’t agree on with the EU, like minded friends in an uncertain world. "

    https://twitter.com/MFATgovtNZ/status/1026640462965178368

    NZ is no different from anyone else.
    The EU as a larger market, becomes a more important relationship than the U.K.

    @HYUFD's great hope in New Zealand seems to have gone off message.

    "There isn’t much we don’t agree on with the EU, like minded friends in an uncertain world. "

    https://twitter.com/MFATgovtNZ/status/1026640462965178368

    NZ is no different from anyone else.
    The EU as a larger market, becomes a more important relationship than the U.K.
    I suspect that, as for Canada, the UK was/is the most important part of the EU market.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,280
    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    MikeL said:

    Have these MORI leadership numbers been debated on here yet (per Britain Elects):

    "The Labour Party should change its leader before the next general election":

    Agree: 55%
    Disagree: 27%

    "The Conservative Party should change its leader before the next general election":

    Agree: 46%
    Disagree: 31%

    Yet there is universal agreement that Con must change leader but not Lab?

    Suggests Lab may struggle if Corbyn is leader at next GE?

    https://twitter.com/britainelects?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

    There is a general assumption the Conservatives *will* knife May before the next election. There's an easy mechanism for the PCP to remove her, and a general agreement among MPs that she shouldn't stay.

    There is a general assumption that Corbyn will not be removed, because there is actually no way to remove him. All avenues have been tried, and failed. As I have said before, I think there is a non-trivial chance he will quit next year on turning 70, but if he doesn't there's no realistic way of removing him. (I think the only person that doesn't apply to is Macdonnell - if he resigns Corbyn might well have to go too).

    But i think those figures are more or less irrelevant until we have a leadership slugfest in one party or the other. If by some peculiar catastrophe Boris gets in we'll rapidly become nostalgic for May.
    The Tories under Boris would face a ticking time bomb of scandal in the way the Liberals faced one under Thorpe.
    I’m very confident in laying Boris.
  • Options
    ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    edited August 2018
    Foxy said:

    @HYUFD's great hope in New Zealand seems to have gone off message.

    "There isn’t much we don’t agree on with the EU, like minded friends in an uncertain world. "

    https://twitter.com/MFATgovtNZ/status/1026640462965178368

    When the leavers proposed deals with The Commonwealth the remainers chorused how pathetic. I seem to recall remainers saying how small the NZ economy was and they were basically a noddy economy,
    Now the sainted EU has been spurned by Trump, China, et al, New Zealand is suddenly a massive win for the EU. The EU is only begging NZ for a deal because the Power Players think they are a bunch of clowns.
    CETA. Canadian negotiator walks out goes home, EU says OK deal, Walloon says "oh no we need our say," Walloon pacified, EU deal on, Italy 2 years later says "Oh no we are going to veto,"

    Who in the world wants to deal with these clowns.
    The number one rule of negotiating is talk to/put up a person that can make the decisions.
    The EU has also just concluded an FTA with Japan, to add to Korea.

    Remind me how many FTAs the three Brexiteers have sorted...
    The EU have told Japan they agree, the Walloonian sushi and wasabi producers have not their say yet.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,280

    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD's great hope in New Zealand seems to have gone off message.

    "There isn’t much we don’t agree on with the EU, like minded friends in an uncertain world. "

    https://twitter.com/MFATgovtNZ/status/1026640462965178368

    Not at all. The fact Winston Peters wants good relations with the EU in no way contradicts his earlier claim a UK EU trade deal 'is an absolute priority

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11663367

    Even May has said she wants good EU relations
    He's going to get his UK trade deal from Cecilia Malmström, not Liam Fox, and your article is over 2 years old.
    Is that different to how you link to articles from over 2 years ago when you feel they support your point?
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,280
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    MikeL said:

    Have these MORI leadership numbers been debated on here yet (per Britain Elects):

    "The Labour Party should change its leader before the next general election":

    Agree: 55%
    Disagree: 27%

    "The Conservative Party should change its leader before the next general election":

    Agree: 46%
    Disagree: 31%

    Yet there is universal agreement that Con must change leader but not Lab?

    Suggests Lab may struggle if Corbyn is leader at next GE?

    https://twitter.com/britainelects?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

    There is a general assumption the Conservatives *will* knife May before the next election. There's an easy mechanism for the PCP to remove her, and a general agreement among MPs that she shouldn't stay.

    There is a general assumption that Corbyn will not be removed, because there is actually no way to remove him. All avenues have been tried, and failed. As I have said before, I think there is a non-trivial chance he will quit next year on turning 70, but if he doesn't there's no realistic way of removing him. (I think the only person that doesn't apply to is Macdonnell - if he resigns Corbyn might well have to go too).

    But i think those figures are more or less irrelevant until we have a leadership slugfest in one party or the other. If by some peculiar catastrophe Boris gets in we'll rapidly become nostalgic for May.
    The Tories under Boris would face a ticking time bomb of scandal in the way the Liberals faced one under Thorpe.
    Thorpe was the most electorally successful Liberal leader since Lloyd George and 4 years after his trial the SDP Liberal Alliance got 23%.

    Though I doubt Boris will be accused of orchestrating a murder plot
    ... but was only a couple of notches down with the Darius Guppie affair, so who knows? Over the last few weeks Boris has played an absolute blinder. The resignation and now the niqab dog whistling is a stroke of genius, endearing him not only to the right of the party but also to the majority of the electorate. It is a little bit naughty, but Machiavellian gold!
    As I have frequently said as long as you have charisma skeletons in your closet rarely matter in politics unless they really are so big nobody could escape them
    Boris’s are so big he can’t escape them.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    Foxy said:

    @HYUFD's great hope in New Zealand seems to have gone off message.

    "There isn’t much we don’t agree on with the EU, like minded friends in an uncertain world. "

    twitter.com/MFATgovtNZ/status/1026640462965178368

    When the leavers proposed deals with The Commonwealth the remainers chorused how pathetic. I seem to recall remainers saying how small the NZ economy was and they were basically a noddy economy,
    Now the sainted EU has been spurned by Trump, China, et al, New Zealand is suddenly a massive win for the EU. The EU is only begging NZ for a deal because the Power Players think they are a bunch of clowns.
    CETA. Canadian negotiator walks out goes home, EU says OK deal, Walloon says "oh no we need our say," Walloon pacified, EU deal on, Italy 2 years later says "Oh no we are going to veto,"

    Who in the world wants to deal with these clowns.
    The number one rule of negotiating is talk to/put up a person that can make the decisions.
    The EU has also just concluded an FTA with Japan, to add to Korea.

    Remind me how many FTAs the three Brexiteers have sorted...
    Pretty sure we can't negotiate them while still members of the EU. But of course you knew that already.
  • Options

    Boris Johnson’s stance is going to be very popular.

    Yes, it will.
    Undoubtably, but it is the way he does it that annoys and of course it is being seen as an attack on women rather than the burka.

    Large parts of the EU are banning it and a sensible argument would gain a lot of support for banning it here. Just Boris's choice of words is stupid beyond belief
  • Options
    Aren't women who choose to wear extreme face covering insulting the rest of us?

    I'd be insulted by a man who insisted on wearing a balaclava in my presence. It would show a lack of trust.
  • Options

    @HYUFD's great hope in New Zealand seems to have gone off message.

    "There isn’t much we don’t agree on with the EU, like minded friends in an uncertain world. "

    https://twitter.com/MFATgovtNZ/status/1026640462965178368

    NZ is no different from anyone else.
    The EU as a larger market, becomes a more important relationship than the U.K.

    @HYUFD's great hope in New Zealand seems to have gone off message.

    "There isn’t much we don’t agree on with the EU, like minded friends in an uncertain world. "

    https://twitter.com/MFATgovtNZ/status/1026640462965178368

    NZ is no different from anyone else.
    The EU as a larger market, becomes a more important relationship than the U.K.
    I suspect that, as for Canada, the UK was/is the most important part of the EU market.
    See Canada and Saudi have fallen out. The World has gone mad
  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD's great hope in New Zealand seems to have gone off message.

    "There isn’t much we don’t agree on with the EU, like minded friends in an uncertain world. "

    https://twitter.com/MFATgovtNZ/status/1026640462965178368

    Not at all. The fact Winston Peters wants good relations with the EU in no way contradicts his earlier claim a UK EU trade deal 'is an absolute priority

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11663367

    Even May has said she wants good EU relations
    He's going to get his UK trade deal from Cecilia Malmström, not Liam Fox, and your article is over 2 years old.
    I know you have more loyalty to Brussels than your own country and are desperate to see Brexit Britain fail but Peters backed Brexit even before the EU referendum as a chance for the UK to strengthen Commonwealth ties.

    Plus of course it took 7 years for the EU yo do a FTA with Canada.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/politics/647528/New-Zealand-Winston-Peters-Brexit-heal-rift-Commonwealth-free-trade/amp
    "I know you have more loyalty to Brussels than your own country"
    It's not fair to insult someone just because they disagree with you.
    I know we are all meant to be jumping on the Outrage Bus, Train and Plane whenever we can these days, but I really can’t see how that is an insult.

    I expect William would regard it as a badge of honour as my understanding is that he regards the interests of the UK and the EU to be almost identical.

    I don’t agree with William, but I think it is a perfectly valid point of view to put forward. Arguments can be made for and against it.
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    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    @HYUFD's great hope in New Zealand seems to have gone off message.

    "There isn’t much we don’t agree on with the EU, like minded friends in an uncertain world. "

    twitter.com/MFATgovtNZ/status/1026640462965178368

    When the leavers proposed deals with The Commonwealth the remainers chorused how pathetic. I seem to recall remainers saying how small the NZ economy was and they were basically a noddy economy,
    Now the sainted EU has been spurned by Trump, China, et al, New Zealand is suddenly a massive win for the EU. The EU is only begging NZ for a deal because the Power Players think they are a bunch of clowns.
    CETA. Canadian negotiator walks out goes home, EU says OK deal, Walloon says "oh no we need our say," Walloon pacified, EU deal on, Italy 2 years later says "Oh no we are going to veto,"

    Who in the world wants to deal with these clowns.
    The number one rule of negotiating is talk to/put up a person that can make the decisions.
    The EU has also just concluded an FTA with Japan, to add to Korea.

    Remind me how many FTAs the three Brexiteers have sorted...
    Pretty sure we can't negotiate them while still members of the EU. But of course you knew that already.
    Sadly David Davis didn't know that.

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1002541345964216321
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,088

    Boris Johnson’s stance is going to be very popular.

    Yes, it will.
    Undoubtably, but it is the way he does it that annoys and of course it is being seen as an attack on women rather than the burka.

    Large parts of the EU are banning it and a sensible argument would gain a lot of support for banning it here. Just Boris's choice of words is stupid beyond belief
    I think Boris's choice of words was beautifully crafted and he made exactly the point he wanted.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,280

    Boris Johnson’s stance is going to be very popular.

    Yes, it will.
    Undoubtably, but it is the way he does it that annoys and of course it is being seen as an attack on women rather than the burka.

    Large parts of the EU are banning it and a sensible argument would gain a lot of support for banning it here. Just Boris's choice of words is stupid beyond belief
    The average voter won’t see it as an attack on women, nor racism, and with good reason.

    That doesn’t mean Boris hasn’t been tactless, and it’s not clear he cares: it’s got him double-coverage.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,088

    Aren't women who choose to wear extreme face covering insulting the rest of us?

    I'd be insulted by a man who insisted on wearing a balaclava in my presence. It would show a lack of trust.

    Fantastic trolling!

  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,029

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    @HYUFD's great hope in New Zealand seems to have gone off message.

    "There isn’t much we don’t agree on with the EU, like minded friends in an uncertain world. "

    twitter.com/MFATgovtNZ/status/1026640462965178368

    When the leavers proposed deals with The Commonwealth the remainers chorused how pathetic. I seem to recall remainers saying how small the NZ economy was and they were basically a noddy economy,
    Now the sainted EU has been spurned by Trump, China, et al, New Zealand is suddenly a massive win for the EU. The EU is only begging NZ for a deal because the Power Players think they are a bunch of clowns.
    CETA. Canadian negotiator walks out goes home, EU says OK deal, Walloon says "oh no we need our say," Walloon pacified, EU deal on, Italy 2 years later says "Oh no we are going to veto,"

    Who in the world wants to deal with these clowns.
    The number one rule of negotiating is talk to/put up a person that can make the decisions.
    The EU has also just concluded an FTA with Japan, to add to Korea.

    Remind me how many FTAs the three Brexiteers have sorted...
    Pretty sure we can't negotiate them while still members of the EU. But of course you knew that already.
    Sadly David Davis didn't know that.
    That Penny Mourdant article (from two years ago) said we already had trade deals outside the EU.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    @HYUFD's great hope in New Zealand seems to have gone off message.

    "There isn’t much we don’t agree on with the EU, like minded friends in an uncertain world. "

    twitter.com/MFATgovtNZ/status/1026640462965178368

    When the leavers proposed deals with The Commonwealth the remainers chorused how pathetic. I seem to recall remainers saying how small the NZ economy was and they were basically a noddy economy,
    Now the sainted EU has been spurned by Trump, China, et al, New Zealand is suddenly a massive win for the EU. The EU is only begging NZ for a deal because the Power Players think they are a bunch of clowns.
    CETA. Canadian negotiator walks out goes home, EU says OK deal, Walloon says "oh no we need our say," Walloon pacified, EU deal on, Italy 2 years later says "Oh no we are going to veto,"

    Who in the world wants to deal with these clowns.
    The number one rule of negotiating is talk to/put up a person that can make the decisions.
    The EU has also just concluded an FTA with Japan, to add to Korea.

    Remind me how many FTAs the three Brexiteers have sorted...
    Pretty sure we can't negotiate them while still members of the EU. But of course you knew that already.
    Sadly David Davis didn't know that.

    twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1002541345964216321
    He's right that the negotiations should have started. I think there has been some activity in that area, but probably not enough unless they are keeping stuff low-key at this stage.
  • Options
    ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201

    @HYUFD's great hope in New Zealand seems to have gone off message.

    "There isn’t much we don’t agree on with the EU, like minded friends in an uncertain world. "

    https://twitter.com/MFATgovtNZ/status/1026640462965178368

    NZ is no different from anyone else.
    The EU as a larger market, becomes a more important relationship than the U.K.

    @HYUFD's great hope in New Zealand seems to have gone off message.

    "There isn’t much we don’t agree on with the EU, like minded friends in an uncertain world. "

    https://twitter.com/MFATgovtNZ/status/1026640462965178368

    NZ is no different from anyone else.
    The EU as a larger market, becomes a more important relationship than the U.K.
    I suspect that, as for Canada, the UK was/is the most important part of the EU market.
    Currently 43% of Canadian exports to the EU come to the UK.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,921

    Aren't women who choose to wear extreme face covering insulting the rest of us?

    I'd be insulted by a man who insisted on wearing a balaclava in my presence. It would show a lack of trust.

    Rubbish. I frequently wear balaclavas, especially in winter. See my profile pic.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,163
    It's a long time ago, but didn't Boris have to go to Liverpool and apologise for an attack on the city and its citizens?
  • Options

    Aren't women who choose to wear extreme face covering insulting the rest of us?

    I'd be insulted by a man who insisted on wearing a balaclava in my presence. It would show a lack of trust.

    Rubbish. I frequently wear balaclavas, especially in winter. See my profile pic.
    You don't insist on wearing it in certain people's presence indoors. Or at least I hope you don't.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,903
    I know Elon's not flavour of the month, but I for one am glad to see how the Tesla shorters' balls have been crushed recently.
    (I hold no position in Tesla)
  • Options

    Aren't women who choose to wear extreme face covering insulting the rest of us?

    I'd be insulted by a man who insisted on wearing a balaclava in my presence. It would show a lack of trust.

    Fantastic trolling!

    You wouldn't be insulted by someone wearing a balaclava in your presence? I'd find it rather rude personally.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,903
    edited August 2018

    Aren't women who choose to wear extreme face covering insulting the rest of us?

    I'd be insulted by a man who insisted on wearing a balaclava in my presence. It would show a lack of trust.

    Rubbish. I frequently wear balaclavas, especially in winter. See my profile pic.
    Can you offer a more reliable service than Royal Mail though :)

    On a serious point, I expect you'd remove it if you popped into a shop though during a walk.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187

    It's a long time ago, but didn't Boris have to go to Liverpool and apologise for an attack on the city and its citizens?

    When he was editor of the Spectator someone wrote a piece saying they wallow in self pity and made reference to Hillsborough. Some would say fair comment.
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    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,292

    It's a long time ago, but didn't Boris have to go to Liverpool and apologise for an attack on the city and its citizens?

    Yes, it was a Spectator editorial accusing them in wallowing in the deaths of James Bulger, the Hillsborough victims and Ken Bigley. Apparently Simon Heffer actually penned it, but as editor Boris had to take the rap.
  • Options

    Aren't women who choose to wear extreme face covering insulting the rest of us?

    I'd be insulted by a man who insisted on wearing a balaclava in my presence. It would show a lack of trust.

    Rubbish. I frequently wear balaclavas, especially in winter. See my profile pic.
    Do you insist on wearing them at all times even during conversations and never take them off while conversing in public with anyone else?
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    surbysurby Posts: 1,227
    All counties except Armagh , Down and Antrim must have a vote. If the six counties can secede from Ireland, counties from Northern Ireland can also rejoin Ireland.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,280

    Aren't women who choose to wear extreme face covering insulting the rest of us?

    I'd be insulted by a man who insisted on wearing a balaclava in my presence. It would show a lack of trust.

    Rubbish. I frequently wear balaclavas, especially in winter. See my profile pic.
    Doesn’t mean he wouldn’t be insulted by you.

    In any event, I only wear balaclavas when it’s very cold to protect my face when I’m outside in an exposed area. I take them off whenever I’m inside, and no longer need to do so. Firstly, for comfort as they become hot and sweaty, secondly for politeness (it would be weird to wear it when socialising with others over a coffee, and harder to communicate) and, thirdly, because I don’t want anyone to think I’m a terrorist or a bank robber.

    That’s sort of what they’re for. It’s a bit different to wearing a full burka which is designed to shield your face from any social contact whilst out in public by design.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,924

    Now the sainted EU has been spurned by Trump, China, et al, New Zealand is suddenly a massive win for the EU. The EU is only begging NZ for a deal because the Power Players think they are a bunch of clowns.

    I'm no Remain-er, but that's a bunch of bullshit.

    The EU has just agreed a deal with Japan. A deal with China has fallen over about IP (which is always going to be an issue with anyone doing a deal with them). And the possibility of a US-EU trade deal has just increased.
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    surbysurby Posts: 1,227

    @HYUFD's great hope in New Zealand seems to have gone off message.

    "There isn’t much we don’t agree on with the EU, like minded friends in an uncertain world. "

    https://twitter.com/MFATgovtNZ/status/1026640462965178368

    NZ is no different from anyone else.
    The EU as a larger market, becomes a more important relationship than the U.K.

    @HYUFD's great hope in New Zealand seems to have gone off message.

    "There isn’t much we don’t agree on with the EU, like minded friends in an uncertain world. "

    https://twitter.com/MFATgovtNZ/status/1026640462965178368

    NZ is no different from anyone else.
    The EU as a larger market, becomes a more important relationship than the U.K.
    I suspect that, as for Canada, the UK was/is the most important part of the EU market.
    See Canada and Saudi have fallen out. The World has gone mad
    Screw the Saudis.
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    rcs1000 said:

    Now the sainted EU has been spurned by Trump, China, et al, New Zealand is suddenly a massive win for the EU. The EU is only begging NZ for a deal because the Power Players think they are a bunch of clowns.

    I'm no Remain-er, but that's a bunch of bullshit.

    The EU has just agreed a deal with Japan. A deal with China has fallen over about IP (which is always going to be an issue with anyone doing a deal with them). And the possibility of a US-EU trade deal has just increased.
    I won't be holding my breath for a US-EU deal any time soon. I agree with the rest of your post but that last part was a bridge too far.
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    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,987

    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    MikeL said:

    Have these MORI leadership numbers been debated on here yet (per Britain Elects):

    "The Labour Party should change its leader before the next general election":

    Agree: 55%
    Disagree: 27%

    "The Conservative Party should change its leader before the next general election":

    Agree: 46%
    Disagree: 31%

    Yet there is universal agreement that Con must change leader but not Lab?

    Suggests Lab may struggle if Corbyn is leader at next GE?

    https://twitter.com/britainelects?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

    There is a general assumption the Conservatives *will* knife May before the next election. There's an easy mechanism for the PCP to remove her, and a general agreement among MPs that she shouldn't stay.

    There is a general assumption that Corbyn will not be removed, because there is actually no way to remove him. All avenues have been tried, and failed. As I have said before, I think there is a non-trivial chance he will quit next year on turning 70, but if he doesn't there's no realistic way of removing him. (I think the only person that doesn't apply to is Macdonnell - if he resigns Corbyn might well have to go too).

    But i think those figures are more or less irrelevant until we have a leadership slugfest in one party or the other. If by some peculiar catastrophe Boris gets in we'll rapidly become nostalgic for May.
    The Tories under Boris would face a ticking time bomb of scandal in the way the Liberals faced one under Thorpe.
    I’m very confident in laying Boris.
    Keep it up
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,957
    surby said:

    All counties except Armagh , Down and Antrim must have a vote. If the six counties can secede from Ireland, counties from Northern Ireland can also rejoin Ireland.
    The long term solution for Northern Ireland is likely Tyrone, Fermanagh and Armagh and Derry which are Catholic majority join the Republic while Protestant majority Down and Antrim stay in the UK. Until then Stormont powersharing should be restored.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    Pulpstar said:

    Aren't women who choose to wear extreme face covering insulting the rest of us?

    I'd be insulted by a man who insisted on wearing a balaclava in my presence. It would show a lack of trust.

    Rubbish. I frequently wear balaclavas, especially in winter. See my profile pic.
    Can you offer a more reliable service than Royal Mail though :)

    On a serious point, I expect you'd remove it if you popped into a shop though during a walk.
    Some motorcycling friends of mine say it is a right pain having to take your crash helmet off when going to pay for petrol. Personally I think they shouldn't be allowed to force bikers to do so.

    https://www.bikerandbike.co.uk/removing-helmets-petrol-stations-safety-implications/
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    ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    rcs1000 said:

    Now the sainted EU has been spurned by Trump, China, et al, New Zealand is suddenly a massive win for the EU. The EU is only begging NZ for a deal because the Power Players think they are a bunch of clowns.

    I'm no Remain-er, but that's a bunch of bullshit.

    The EU has just agreed a deal with Japan. A deal with China has fallen over about IP (which is always going to be an issue with anyone doing a deal with them). And the possibility of a US-EU trade deal has just increased.
    I know, I am throwing emotive remainer language back at them. It may not be intelligent or elegantly argued but when the counter arguments have been "The EU is all powerful they get what they want because they are the largest market." "The EU will negotiate better trade deals for the UK." Unfortunately you have to use their language.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,029
    HYUFD said:

    surby said:

    All counties except Armagh , Down and Antrim must have a vote. If the six counties can secede from Ireland, counties from Northern Ireland can also rejoin Ireland.
    The long term solution for Northern Ireland is likely Tyrone, Fermanagh and Armagh and Derry which are Catholic majority join the Republic while Protestant majority Down and Antrim stay in the UK. Until then Stormont powersharing should be restored.
    Do you define "likely" to mean "something I like"?
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,957
    edited August 2018

    HYUFD said:

    surby said:

    All counties except Armagh , Down and Antrim must have a vote. If the six counties can secede from Ireland, counties from Northern Ireland can also rejoin Ireland.
    The long term solution for Northern Ireland is likely Tyrone, Fermanagh and Armagh and Derry which are Catholic majority join the Republic while Protestant majority Down and Antrim stay in the UK. Until then Stormont powersharing should be restored.
    Do you define "likely" to mean "something I like"?
    No. I mean something that avoids a civil war in Northern Ireland which would be the almost certain result of any alternative.


    I studied Irish history at university and unlike you I am not just trying to push a United Ireland as a petty points score against Brexit.

    Had the EU referendum been 52% Remain 48% Leave I doubt you would have given a toss about Northern Ireland's future in the way you have since the Leave vote
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,163
    Average age of House Dem is 65, says https://twitter.com/PodSaveAmerica/status/1026865296651386880.

    Furbies, soccer Mums, 2 vans, 1990s third way -- All out of touch.

    Future POTUS???

    https://twitter.com/PodSaveAmerica/status/1026865296651386880


  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799
    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    MikeL said:

    Have these MORI leadership numbers been debated on here yet (per Britain Elects):

    "The Labour Party should change its leader before the next general election":

    Agree: 55%
    Disagree: 27%

    "The Conservative Party should change its leader before the next general election":

    Agree: 46%
    Disagree: 31%

    Yet there is universal agreement that Con must change leader but not Lab?

    Suggests Lab may struggle if Corbyn is leader at next GE?

    https://twitter.com/britainelects?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

    There is a general assumption the Conservatives *will* knife May before the next election. There's an easy mechanism for the PCP to remove her, and a general agreement among MPs that she shouldn't stay.

    There is a general assumption that Corbyn will not be removed, because there is actually no way to remove him. All avenues have been tried, and failed. As I have said before, I think there is a non-trivial chance he will quit next year on turning 70, but if he doesn't there's no realistic way of removing him. (I think the only person that doesn't apply to is Macdonnell - if he resigns Corbyn might well have to go too).

    But i think those figures are more or less irrelevant until we have a leadership slugfest in one party or the other. If by some peculiar catastrophe Boris gets in we'll rapidly become nostalgic for May.
    The Tories under Boris would face a ticking time bomb of scandal in the way the Liberals faced one under Thorpe.
    Thorpe was the most electorally successful Liberal leader since Lloyd George and 4 years after his trial the SDP Liberal Alliance got 23%.

    Though I doubt Boris will be accused of orchestrating a murder plot
    Most successful, but almost destroyed them, too.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,116



    Thorpe was the most electorally successful Liberal leader since Lloyd George and 4 years after his trial the SDP Liberal Alliance got 23%.

    Though I doubt Boris will be accused of orchestrating a murder plot!

    Is this post for real?

    Does HYUFD actually believe this crock of totally inaccurate shite?

    Does he believe (for example) that 14 is more than 35 or 21?
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    @HYUFD's great hope in New Zealand seems to have gone off message.

    "There isn’t much we don’t agree on with the EU, like minded friends in an uncertain world. "

    https://twitter.com/MFATgovtNZ/status/1026640462965178368

    Not at all. The fact Winston Peters wants good relations with the EU in no way contradicts his earlier claim a UK EU trade deal 'is an absolute priority

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11663367

    Even May has said she wants good EU relations
    He's going to get his UK trade deal from Cecilia Malmström, not Liam Fox, and your article is over 2 years old.
    I know you have more loyalty to Brussels than your own country and are desperate to see Brexit Britain fail but Peters backed Brexit even before the EU referendum as a chance for the UK to strengthen Commonwealth ties.

    Plus of course it took 7 years for the EU yo do a FTA with Canada.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/politics/647528/New-Zealand-Winston-Peters-Brexit-heal-rift-Commonwealth-free-trade/amp
    "I know you have more loyalty to Brussels than your own country"
    It's not fair to insult someone just because they disagree with you.

    I don't think that William would regard that as an insult.
  • Options
    AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    HYUFD said:

    surby said:

    All counties except Armagh , Down and Antrim must have a vote. If the six counties can secede from Ireland, counties from Northern Ireland can also rejoin Ireland.
    The long term solution for Northern Ireland is likely Tyrone, Fermanagh and Armagh and Derry which are Catholic majority join the Republic while Protestant majority Down and Antrim stay in the UK. Until then Stormont powersharing should be restored.
    HYUFD said:

    surby said:

    All counties except Armagh , Down and Antrim must have a vote. If the six counties can secede from Ireland, counties from Northern Ireland can also rejoin Ireland.
    The long term solution for Northern Ireland is likely Tyrone, Fermanagh and Armagh and Derry which are Catholic majority join the Republic while Protestant majority Down and Antrim stay in the UK. Until then Stormont powersharing should be restored.
    Presumably you would advocate some sort of West Berlin style solution for the city of Belfast, which is now majority nationalist?
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,793
    edited August 2018
    I've never been terribly fussed about women wearing Burka's but I do wonder about the extent of peripheral vision you have with them after my mother was pushed over in the street by a woman in a burka...

    I'm sure she didn't she her and I'm not even sure she knew she'd done it as she just carried on hurrying up the street leaving my mother spreadeagled on the floor...
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,930
    HYUFD said:

    surby said:

    All counties except Armagh , Down and Antrim must have a vote. If the six counties can secede from Ireland, counties from Northern Ireland can also rejoin Ireland.
    The long term solution for Northern Ireland is likely Tyrone, Fermanagh and Armagh and Derry which are Catholic majority join the Republic while Protestant majority Down and Antrim stay in the UK. Until then Stormont powersharing should be restored.
    What are you going to do with West Belfast?
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799

    How can Fidesz be far right? It is embraced by the EPP.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,921

    Aren't women who choose to wear extreme face covering insulting the rest of us?

    I'd be insulted by a man who insisted on wearing a balaclava in my presence. It would show a lack of trust.

    Rubbish. I frequently wear balaclavas, especially in winter. See my profile pic.
    Doesn’t mean he wouldn’t be insulted by you.

    In any event, I only wear balaclavas when it’s very cold to protect my face when I’m outside in an exposed area. I take them off whenever I’m inside, and no longer need to do so. Firstly, for comfort as they become hot and sweaty, secondly for politeness (it would be weird to wear it when socialising with others over a coffee, and harder to communicate) and, thirdly, because I don’t want anyone to think I’m a terrorist or a bank robber.

    That’s sort of what they’re for. It’s a bit different to wearing a full burka which is designed to shield your face from any social contact whilst out in public by design.
    Indeed, and as I've said before I generally take it off whilst inside.

    If he's 'insulted' by me wearing it when it's applicable, then it's his issue, not mine. He's the one with the problem, not me.

    It's the same sort of sh*t that means people are 'insulted' by, or take offence at, all sorts of things; like two women holding hands.

    I don't like the Niqab, and I don't like the burkha. The hijab isn't as bad, but I still don't particularly like it. And I might support the first two banned in very specific and limited circumstances; e.g. in courts - along with other head coverings. But why should they be banned more generally just because I dislike them?
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    @ydoethur

    On the last thread you said that Germans were only allowed to vote for the Nazis

    Quite the contrary: the below ballot paper (from Austria) clearly shows voters had the right to vote against Hitler if they wished...

    https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Stimmzettel-Anschluss.jpg
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,930
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    MikeL said:

    Have these MORI leadership numbers been debated on here yet (per Britain Elects):

    "The Labour Party should change its leader before the next general election":

    Agree: 55%
    Disagree: 27%

    "The Conservative Party should change its leader before the next general election":

    Agree: 46%
    Disagree: 31%

    Yet there is universal agreement that Con must change leader but not Lab?

    Suggests Lab may struggle if Corbyn is leader at next GE?

    https://twitter.com/britainelects?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

    There is a general assumption the Conservatives *will* knife May before the next election. There's an easy mechanism for the PCP to remove her, and a general agreement among MPs that she shouldn't stay.

    There is a general assumption that Corbyn will not be removed, because there is actually no way to remove him. All avenues have been tried, and failed. As I have said before, I think there is a non-trivial chance he will quit next year on turning 70, but if he doesn't there's no realistic way of removing him. (I think the only person that doesn't apply to is Macdonnell - if he resigns Corbyn might well have to go too).

    But i think those figures are more or less irrelevant until we have a leadership slugfest in one party or the other. If by some peculiar catastrophe Boris gets in we'll rapidly become nostalgic for May.
    The Tories under Boris would face a ticking time bomb of scandal in the way the Liberals faced one under Thorpe.
    Thorpe was the most electorally successful Liberal leader since Lloyd George and 4 years after his trial the SDP Liberal Alliance got 23%.

    Though I doubt Boris will be accused of orchestrating a murder plot
    Most successful, but almost destroyed them, too.
    Oddly, he didn’t.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,116
    Charles said:

    @ydoethur

    On the last thread you said that Germans were only allowed to vote for the Nazis

    Quite the contrary: the below ballot paper (from Austria) clearly shows voters had the right to vote against Hitler if they wished...

    https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Stimmzettel-Anschluss.jpg

    Yes.

    I do love the subtlety of that ballot paper.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799
    Alliance have shifted from being a liberal unionist party to being little Sir Echo for Sinn Fein. They will be slaughtered in seats like East Belfast, North Down, South Antrim, East Antrim.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,921

    Aren't women who choose to wear extreme face covering insulting the rest of us?

    I'd be insulted by a man who insisted on wearing a balaclava in my presence. It would show a lack of trust.

    Rubbish. I frequently wear balaclavas, especially in winter. See my profile pic.
    Do you insist on wearing them at all times even during conversations and never take them off while conversing in public with anyone else?
    Would you insist I take it off for no good reason?
  • Options
    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    HYUFD said:

    surby said:

    All counties except Armagh , Down and Antrim must have a vote. If the six counties can secede from Ireland, counties from Northern Ireland can also rejoin Ireland.
    The long term solution for Northern Ireland is likely Tyrone, Fermanagh and Armagh and Derry which are Catholic majority join the Republic while Protestant majority Down and Antrim stay in the UK. Until then Stormont powersharing should be restored.
    The reason why Fermanagh and Tyrone were included in NI in the first place was because Carson et al didn't think anything less than the six counties could be economically viable. How does a two-county statelet become more viable?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,957

    HYUFD said:

    surby said:

    All counties except Armagh , Down and Antrim must have a vote. If the six counties can secede from Ireland, counties from Northern Ireland can also rejoin Ireland.
    The long term solution for Northern Ireland is likely Tyrone, Fermanagh and Armagh and Derry which are Catholic majority join the Republic while Protestant majority Down and Antrim stay in the UK. Until then Stormont powersharing should be restored.
    What are you going to do with West Belfast?
    It could join the Republic and unlike East and West Berlin there would be no razor wire fence between UK Belfast and Republic of Ireland Belfast
  • Options

    Aren't women who choose to wear extreme face covering insulting the rest of us?

    I'd be insulted by a man who insisted on wearing a balaclava in my presence. It would show a lack of trust.

    Rubbish. I frequently wear balaclavas, especially in winter. See my profile pic.
    Do you insist on wearing them at all times even during conversations and never take them off while conversing in public with anyone else?
    Would you insist I take it off for no good reason?
    Should requesting that you do indoors be considered a reprehensible insult?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,957
    rpjs said:

    HYUFD said:

    surby said:

    All counties except Armagh , Down and Antrim must have a vote. If the six counties can secede from Ireland, counties from Northern Ireland can also rejoin Ireland.
    The long term solution for Northern Ireland is likely Tyrone, Fermanagh and Armagh and Derry which are Catholic majority join the Republic while Protestant majority Down and Antrim stay in the UK. Until then Stormont powersharing should be restored.
    The reason why Fermanagh and Tyrone were included in NI in the first place was because Carson et al didn't think anything less than the six counties could be economically viable. How does a two-county statelet become more viable?
    It stays part of the UK. Don't forget the majority of the population of NI live in Down and Antrim
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,957
    Anazina said:

    HYUFD said:

    surby said:

    All counties except Armagh , Down and Antrim must have a vote. If the six counties can secede from Ireland, counties from Northern Ireland can also rejoin Ireland.
    The long term solution for Northern Ireland is likely Tyrone, Fermanagh and Armagh and Derry which are Catholic majority join the Republic while Protestant majority Down and Antrim stay in the UK. Until then Stormont powersharing should be restored.
    HYUFD said:

    surby said:

    All counties except Armagh , Down and Antrim must have a vote. If the six counties can secede from Ireland, counties from Northern Ireland can also rejoin Ireland.
    The long term solution for Northern Ireland is likely Tyrone, Fermanagh and Armagh and Derry which are Catholic majority join the Republic while Protestant majority Down and Antrim stay in the UK. Until then Stormont powersharing should be restored.
    Presumably you would advocate some sort of West Berlin style solution for the city of Belfast, which is now majority nationalist?
    East Belfast is majority Protestant, West Belfast majority Nationalist. They could be split as Berlin but without the machine guns at the border
  • Options

    Aren't women who choose to wear extreme face covering insulting the rest of us?

    I'd be insulted by a man who insisted on wearing a balaclava in my presence. It would show a lack of trust.

    Rubbish. I frequently wear balaclavas, especially in winter. See my profile pic.
    Doesn’t mean he wouldn’t be insulted by you.

    In any event, I only wear balaclavas when it’s very cold to protect my face when I’m outside in an exposed area. I take them off whenever I’m inside, and no longer need to do so. Firstly, for comfort as they become hot and sweaty, secondly for politeness (it would be weird to wear it when socialising with others over a coffee, and harder to communicate) and, thirdly, because I don’t want anyone to think I’m a terrorist or a bank robber.

    That’s sort of what they’re for. It’s a bit different to wearing a full burka which is designed to shield your face from any social contact whilst out in public by design.
    Indeed, and as I've said before I generally take it off whilst inside.

    If he's 'insulted' by me wearing it when it's applicable, then it's his issue, not mine. He's the one with the problem, not me.

    It's the same sort of sh*t that means people are 'insulted' by, or take offence at, all sorts of things; like two women holding hands.

    I don't like the Niqab, and I don't like the burkha. The hijab isn't as bad, but I still don't particularly like it. And I might support the first two banned in very specific and limited circumstances; e.g. in courts - along with other head coverings. But why should they be banned more generally just because I dislike them?
    Insulted by you insisting on always wearing it in my presence? If it wasn't cold, of course. Plus I'd think you a freak, and I'd probably tell you so.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,957
    edited August 2018
    ydoethur said:



    Thorpe was the most electorally successful Liberal leader since Lloyd George and 4 years after his trial the SDP Liberal Alliance got 23%.

    Though I doubt Boris will be accused of orchestrating a murder plot!

    Is this post for real?

    Does HYUFD actually believe this crock of totally inaccurate shite?

    Does he believe (for example) that 14 is more than 35 or 21?
    The 19% Thorpe got for the Liberals in 1979 was the highest since the 23.6% Lloyd George got in 1929.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,921
    Pulpstar said:

    Aren't women who choose to wear extreme face covering insulting the rest of us?

    I'd be insulted by a man who insisted on wearing a balaclava in my presence. It would show a lack of trust.

    Rubbish. I frequently wear balaclavas, especially in winter. See my profile pic.
    Can you offer a more reliable service than Royal Mail though :)

    On a serious point, I expect you'd remove it if you popped into a shop though during a walk.
    Not always. There was an early morning one November where I'd spent the night wild camping, and ended up in a village early doors. The shop had just opened, and sleep deprived after being a woken by lampers, I walked into it still wearing my baaclava. The old lady behind the counter served me as normal - then again it was Norfolk, and it was the countryside, so she might be used to odd folk.

    The only problem occurred when I went to get my wallet out of my pack, and a jar of vaseline fell onto the counter. That must have been a bit unusual, even for Norfolk ... :)
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,921

    Aren't women who choose to wear extreme face covering insulting the rest of us?

    I'd be insulted by a man who insisted on wearing a balaclava in my presence. It would show a lack of trust.

    Rubbish. I frequently wear balaclavas, especially in winter. See my profile pic.
    Doesn’t mean he wouldn’t be insulted by you.

    In any event, I only wear balaclavas when it’s very cold to protect my face when I’m outside in an exposed area. I take them off whenever I’m inside, and no longer need to do so. Firstly, for comfort as they become hot and sweaty, secondly for politeness (it would be weird to wear it when socialising with others over a coffee, and harder to communicate) and, thirdly, because I don’t want anyone to think I’m a terrorist or a bank robber.

    That’s sort of what they’re for. It’s a bit different to wearing a full burka which is designed to shield your face from any social contact whilst out in public by design.
    Indeed, and as I've said before I generally take it off whilst inside.

    If he's 'insulted' by me wearing it when it's applicable, then it's his issue, not mine. He's the one with the problem, not me.

    It's the same sort of sh*t that means people are 'insulted' by, or take offence at, all sorts of things; like two women holding hands.

    I don't like the Niqab, and I don't like the burkha. The hijab isn't as bad, but I still don't particularly like it. And I might support the first two banned in very specific and limited circumstances; e.g. in courts - along with other head coverings. But why should they be banned more generally just because I dislike them?
    Insulted by you insisting on always wearing it in my presence? If it wasn't cold, of course. Plus I'd think you a freak, and I'd probably tell you so.
    Ah, so you're easily insulted and an ill-mannered fool.

    You might be right, though ... ;)
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799
    rpjs said:

    HYUFD said:

    surby said:

    All counties except Armagh , Down and Antrim must have a vote. If the six counties can secede from Ireland, counties from Northern Ireland can also rejoin Ireland.
    The long term solution for Northern Ireland is likely Tyrone, Fermanagh and Armagh and Derry which are Catholic majority join the Republic while Protestant majority Down and Antrim stay in the UK. Until then Stormont powersharing should be restored.
    The reason why Fermanagh and Tyrone were included in NI in the first place was because Carson et al didn't think anything less than the six counties could be economically viable. How does a two-county statelet become more viable?
    It's hard to see how either County, neither of which has ever been wealthy, would make the place more viable.

    Really, the best solution would have been to go beyond county boundaries. South Armagh, South Down, Strabane, the West Bank of the Foyle should have gone into the Free State, bits of Donegal should have gone into Northern Ireland.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,957
    edited August 2018
    Sean_F said:

    Alliance have shifted from being a liberal unionist party to being little Sir Echo for Sinn Fein. They will be slaughtered in seats like East Belfast, North Down, South Antrim, East Antrim.
    The Alliance lost their only Westminster seat in East Belfast back to the DUP in 2015
  • Options
    AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    HYUFD said:

    Anazina said:

    HYUFD said:

    surby said:

    All counties except Armagh , Down and Antrim must have a vote. If the six counties can secede from Ireland, counties from Northern Ireland can also rejoin Ireland.
    The long term solution for Northern Ireland is likely Tyrone, Fermanagh and Armagh and Derry which are Catholic majority join the Republic while Protestant majority Down and Antrim stay in the UK. Until then Stormont powersharing should be restored.
    HYUFD said:

    surby said:

    All counties except Armagh , Down and Antrim must have a vote. If the six counties can secede from Ireland, counties from Northern Ireland can also rejoin Ireland.
    The long term solution for Northern Ireland is likely Tyrone, Fermanagh and Armagh and Derry which are Catholic majority join the Republic while Protestant majority Down and Antrim stay in the UK. Until then Stormont powersharing should be restored.
    Presumably you would advocate some sort of West Berlin style solution for the city of Belfast, which is now majority nationalist?
    East Belfast is majority Protestant, West Belfast majority Nationalist. They could be split as Berlin but without the machine guns at the border
    The city as a whole is now majority nationalist. Indeed there are large nationalist enclaves in the north of the city as well as those well known around the Falls Road in the west.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799
    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    Alliance have shifted from being a liberal unionist party to being little Sir Echo for Sinn Fein. They will be slaughtered in seats like East Belfast, North Down, South Antrim, East Antrim.
    The Alliance lost their only Westminster seat in East Belfast back to the DUP in 2015
    When the UUP stopped campaigning in East Belfast, Alliance took over their vote. Then, a lot of UUP voters were appalled to find out what type of candidate they'd been voting for.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,957
    edited August 2018
    Anazina said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anazina said:

    HYUFD said:

    surby said:

    All counties except Armagh , Down and Antrim must have a vote. If the six counties can secede from Ireland, counties from Northern Ireland can also rejoin Ireland.
    The long term solution for Northern Ireland is likely Tyrone, Fermanagh and Armagh and Derry which are Catholic majority join the Republic while Protestant majority Down and Antrim stay in the UK. Until then Stormont powersharing should be restored.
    HYUFD said:

    surby said:

    All counties except Armagh , Down and Antrim must have a vote. If the six counties can secede from Ireland, counties from Northern Ireland can also rejoin Ireland.
    The long term solution for Northern Ireland is likely Tyrone, Fermanagh and Armagh and Derry which are Catholic majority join the Republic while Protestant majority Down and Antrim stay in the UK. Until then Stormont powersharing should be restored.
    Presumably you would advocate some sort of West Berlin style solution for the city of Belfast, which is now majority nationalist?
    East Belfast is majority Protestant, West Belfast majority Nationalist. They could be split as Berlin but without the machine guns at the border
    The city as a whole is now majority nationalist. Indeed there are large nationalist enclaves in the north of the city as well as those well known around the Falls Road in the west.
    3/4 of Belfast MPs are from the DUP.


    Remove West Belfast and Belfast is comfortably majority Unionist
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799
    Anazina said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anazina said:

    HYUFD said:

    surby said:

    All counties except Armagh , Down and Antrim must have a vote. If the six counties can secede from Ireland, counties from Northern Ireland can also rejoin Ireland.
    The long term solution for Northern Ireland is likely Tyrone, Fermanagh and Armagh and Derry which are Catholic majority join the Republic while Protestant majority Down and Antrim stay in the UK. Until then Stormont powersharing should be restored.
    HYUFD said:

    surby said:

    All counties except Armagh , Down and Antrim must have a vote. If the six counties can secede from Ireland, counties from Northern Ireland can also rejoin Ireland.
    The long term solution for Northern Ireland is likely Tyrone, Fermanagh and Armagh and Derry which are Catholic majority join the Republic while Protestant majority Down and Antrim stay in the UK. Until then Stormont powersharing should be restored.
    Presumably you would advocate some sort of West Berlin style solution for the city of Belfast, which is now majority nationalist?
    East Belfast is majority Protestant, West Belfast majority Nationalist. They could be split as Berlin but without the machine guns at the border
    The city as a whole is now majority nationalist. Indeed there are large nationalist enclaves in the north of the city as well as those well known around the Falls Road in the west.
    About 42% nationalist.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Oldest state? China, surely.

    In Europe? Austria needs some thinking about.

    For a little by time Austria wasn’t a state but merely an agglomeration of lands owned by the Hapsburgs
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,957
    edited August 2018
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    Alliance have shifted from being a liberal unionist party to being little Sir Echo for Sinn Fein. They will be slaughtered in seats like East Belfast, North Down, South Antrim, East Antrim.
    The Alliance lost their only Westminster seat in East Belfast back to the DUP in 2015
    When the UUP stopped campaigning in East Belfast, Alliance took over their vote. Then, a lot of UUP voters were appalled to find out what type of candidate they'd been voting for.
    Yes, if the Alliance is seen to be moderate nationalist rather than moderate unionist or at least non sectarian it will find itself falling well behind the SDLP and UUP never mind not being able to challenge the DUP and SF
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    Lancashire collapsing against Durham. The left are finger spinner for Durham looks useful.
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Charles said:

    Oldest state? China, surely.

    In Europe? Austria needs some thinking about.

    For a little by time Austria wasn’t a state but merely an agglomeration of lands owned by the Hapsburgs
    If they both owned the lands and administered a fairly uniform system of law in them, that is surely quite a long way towards coming to the same thing.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799
    T
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Charles said:

    Oldest state? China, surely.

    In Europe? Austria needs some thinking about.

    For a little by time Austria wasn’t a state but merely an agglomeration of lands owned by the Hapsburgs
    If they both owned the lands and administered a fairly uniform system of law in them, that is surely quite a long way towards coming to the same thing.
    The system was not all uniform. Attempts to achieve uniformity led to revolts.
  • Options



    Insulted by you insisting on always wearing it in my presence? If it wasn't cold, of course. Plus I'd think you a freak, and I'd probably tell you so.

    Ah, so you're easily insulted and an ill-mannered fool.

    You might be right, though ... ;)
    I guess if you've got a really freaky face I might prefer that you insist on it
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,226
    edited August 2018
    Charles said:

    @ydoethur

    On the last thread you said that Germans were only allowed to vote for the Nazis

    Quite the contrary: the below ballot paper (from Austria) clearly shows voters had the right to vote against Hitler if they wished...

    https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Stimmzettel-Anschluss.jpg

    The fact that the Anschluss ballot generally had to be filled in in plain sight of the officials, rather than in a ballot booth, helped concentrate minds somewhat, however.
This discussion has been closed.