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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Numerology. The next Conservative leader

SystemSystem Posts: 11,005
edited August 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Numerology. The next Conservative leader

Let me let you in on a dirty secret.  An awful lot of lawyers are terrified of maths.  They can make words sit up and beg, but put them in front of a formula and they quiver.  When the rate of VAT rose to 20%, many lawyers were privately delighted because the calculation was so much easier to do.  Nevertheless, I have maths ahead.  You have been warned.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Options
    I hope you’re wrong on Boris.
  • Options
    Kaboom
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,899
    Dividing by 6 is certainly easier than multiplying by 7 and dividing by 47.
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,817
    Munich terrorists are buried in Libya

    Corbyn accusers Wrong Cemetery

    Wrong City

    Wrong country

    Carry on with the Anti Corbyn Bile

    Do try to get your basic facts correct
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,930
    Sounds a bit too clever by half to me. This is the kind electoral gymnastics that saw Corbyn win the leadership.
    How about vote for your preferred leader?
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,215
    If the MPs have any ability at all they will make sure that Boris is nobbled early on.
  • Options
    brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited August 2018
    IanB2 said:

    If the MPs have any ability at all they will make sure that Boris is nobbled early on.

    They nearly got Andrea Leadsom last time by trying to derail Gove - although you do wonder if things might have been different if we had a PM who actually believed in the task at hand.


    If only Boris had had the decency to call her and offer her a top job Leadsom wouldn't have stood and he might well be PM now. Such small details change history.
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    IanB2 said:

    If the MPs have any ability at all they will make sure that Boris is nobbled early on.

    If they aren't clever enough, then they'll deserve to be led by Boris. It's a genuine dilemma in that Boris probably is the most electable of the frontrunners in a General Election, but he'd also likely be a terrible Prime Minister. So...
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,215
    John_M said:

    IanB2 said:

    If the MPs have any ability at all they will make sure that Boris is nobbled early on.

    If they aren't clever enough, then they'll deserve to be led by Boris. It's a genuine dilemma in that Boris probably is the most electable of the frontrunners in a General Election, but he'd also likely be a terrible Prime Minister. So...
    ...the nearer the election he mounts the challenge, the better for him?
  • Options

    Munich terrorists are buried in Libya

    Corbyn accusers Wrong Cemetery

    Wrong City

    Wrong country

    Carry on with the Anti Corbyn Bile

    Do try to get your basic facts correct

    I understand that those killed in the attack were buried in Libya. Three were captured and later exchanged for other hostages by the West German's. Of these three it is believed that they were subsequently killed by Mossad - the memorial which Corbyn attended was to commemorate terrorists killed by Mossad...I may be incorrect but that's my undestanding
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,123
    Let me be clear about this. I do not consider Boris to be fit to be PM. Not as unfit as Corbyn of course, but nevertheless not fit.

    Having said that, it is clear that he is one of the few "big beasts" in the party and that many of the membership feel otherwise. Would it really be wise for the PCP to deny the members the opportunity to vote for or against him? I think it might prove extremely divisive in a party structure that is already creaking and weak. Last time out the membership were denied their say. Had May had to campaign is it possible that some of her chronic weaknesses would have become apparent before her epic election campaign? Of course the alternative was a bit of a joke but even so.

    If I were a Tory MP I would want the last 2 to be Javid and Boris. And I would work night and day to make sure Javid won.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,880

    Munich terrorists are buried in Libya

    Corbyn accusers Wrong Cemetery

    Wrong City

    Wrong country

    Carry on with the Anti Corbyn Bile

    Do try to get your basic facts correct

    Sources, please.
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    IanB2 said:

    John_M said:

    IanB2 said:

    If the MPs have any ability at all they will make sure that Boris is nobbled early on.

    If they aren't clever enough, then they'll deserve to be led by Boris. It's a genuine dilemma in that Boris probably is the most electable of the frontrunners in a General Election, but he'd also likely be a terrible Prime Minister. So...
    ...the nearer the election he mounts the challenge, the better for him?
    Possibly. Alastair's argument has persuaded me that I was a bit hasty in discounting Boris's chances. It's one of those trickier-than-it-looks jobs.
  • Options
    NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311
    Part of me thinks we deserve the Hobsons choice of Corbyn vs Boris
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,691
    Maybe the Hate Boris majority of MPs read PB and will organise themselves to split their votes evenly for two alternative candidates, thus depriving the Johnson of his second place.
  • Options
    grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Boris wants to be the British Trump but Corbyn beat him to it.

    Loser.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,621
    malcolmg said:

    Don't worry. Diane Abbott will sort it all out. She's still Right On. But doesn't have the baggage of attending PLO/IRA funerals. Doesn't have the baggage of being a Man. Or being White. But isn't a headbanger having sent her sprog to a posh school to chase personal aspiration. Isn't as shrill and hectoring as too many female politicians are.

    Diane Abbott. Did you catch the name? Abbott.

    That would drive even me to vote Tory
    Those are some strong words!
    HYUFD said:

    As long as Corbyn has the membership of the Labour Party behind him he cannot be moved

    He does and he won't.

    You know, there's been plenty of talk of the danger of Boris re-inventing himself as the Trump of British politics.

    After this week I think I can safely say the Trump of British politics already exists, and his name is Jeremy Corbyn.

    In manner and policy they are different, very different, but the parallels with their approach to media and their supporters is spot on.

    But no reason we cannot have two Trumps. Over to you Boris.

    Part of me thinks we deserve the Hobsons choice of Corbyn vs Boris

    More of a Mortons fork isn't it - different options leading to same outcome for different reasons.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,215
    edited August 2018
    DavidL said:

    Let me be clear about this. I do not consider Boris to be fit to be PM. Not as unfit as Corbyn of course, but nevertheless not fit.

    Having said that, it is clear that he is one of the few "big beasts" in the party and that many of the membership feel otherwise. Would it really be wise for the PCP to deny the members the opportunity to vote for or against him? I think it might prove extremely divisive in a party structure that is already creaking and weak. Last time out the membership were denied their say. Had May had to campaign is it possible that some of her chronic weaknesses would have become apparent before her epic election campaign? Of course the alternative was a bit of a joke but even so.

    If I were a Tory MP I would want the last 2 to be Javid and Boris. And I would work night and day to make sure Javid won.

    But surely the only point in the Tories' having the MPs stage is to allow them, with their supposedly much closer knowledge of the strengths and weaknesses of the potential runners, to screen out anyone who isn't suitable?

    If they trusted their members they would have a similar system to Labour's.
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,817
    The Munich 1972 terrorists that were killed by #German security forces were all buried in Sidi Munaidess Cemetery in Libya! https://goo.gl/2ah1Qd it is also well documented in Simon Reeves book "One Day In September"

    Oh dear

    Commie Spy

    Munich Terrorists wreath

    Next?

    Change is coming they are getting desparate
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011

    Boris wants to be the British Trump but Corbyn beat him to it.

    Loser.

    Perhaps Boris could one up him by questioning the Balfour Declaration.
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    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    The Munich 1972 terrorists that were killed by #German security forces were all buried in Sidi Munaidess Cemetery in Libya! https://goo.gl/2ah1Qd it is also well documented in Simon Reeves book "One Day In September"

    Oh dear

    Commie Spy

    Munich Terrorists wreath

    Next?

    Change is coming they are getting desparate

    I didn't think anyone was disputing that.

    Try researching who is buried in that graveyard in Tunisia.
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,817
    An actual fascist, racist war criminal has chosen to use Labour to deflect from a groundswell of protests against him. We must be doing something right! Join now https://join.labour.org.uk
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,621
    DavidL said:

    Let me be clear about this. I do not consider Boris to be fit to be PM. Not as unfit as Corbyn of course, but nevertheless not fit.

    Having said that, it is clear that he is one of the few "big beasts" in the party and that many of the membership feel otherwise. Would it really be wise for the PCP to deny the members the opportunity to vote for or against him? I think it might prove extremely divisive in a party structure that is already creaking and weak. Last time out the membership were denied their say. Had May had to campaign is it possible that some of her chronic weaknesses would have become apparent before her epic election campaign? Of course the alternative was a bit of a joke but even so.

    If I were a Tory MP I would want the last 2 to be Javid and Boris. And I would work night and day to make sure Javid won.

    That's similar to the reason Corbyn got nominated. It is true it might not be wise to cut him out at the MP stage, I think without a hard leaver the membership would get very mad, but ultimately just line Corbyn if the mps cannot stomach him they should not put him through, because of he then wins, and probably would, they are screwed anyway.

    I think he will get through though.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,077

    The Munich 1972 terrorists that were killed by #German security forces were all buried in Sidi Munaidess Cemetery in Libya! https://goo.gl/2ah1Qd it is also well documented in Simon Reeves book "One Day In September"

    Oh dear

    Commie Spy

    Munich Terrorists wreath

    Next?

    Change is coming they are getting desparate

    No... only the 4 Libyan nationals are buryed in Libya according to your souce.
  • Options
    NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311
    Whilst I agree that some game theory may apply, the strong hand Boris has is his record in London, and the recent poll which showed only him performing better than May. Whilst an interesting article on how Javid could win, it would be equally easy for the leavers to foresee and tailor their behaviour accordingly. It would be easier for Javid to tack rightwards on Brexit whilst being the stop Boris candidate and hope for evidence during an election period that he would perform better than Boris against Corbyn or his possible replacements. The precedent for this would be Cameron, who the conservative members saw as a potential election winner. This is not a time for a Tory vanity candidate like they had in opposition with Hague and Duncan-Smith.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,621

    The Munich 1972 terrorists that were killed by #German security forces were all buried in Sidi Munaidess Cemetery in Libya! https://goo.gl/2ah1Qd it is also well documented in Simon Reeves book "One Day In September"

    Oh dear

    Commie Spy

    Munich Terrorists wreath

    Next?

    Change is coming they are getting desparate

    You think people react the way they do because they fear the change? That is so silly.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,123

    The Munich 1972 terrorists that were killed by #German security forces were all buried in Sidi Munaidess Cemetery in Libya! https://goo.gl/2ah1Qd it is also well documented in Simon Reeves book "One Day In September"

    Oh dear

    Commie Spy

    Munich Terrorists wreath

    Next?

    Change is coming they are getting desparate

    I think the position is a bit more complicated than that. Under Operation Wrath of God Mossad killed a lot of people allegedly involved in the Munich massacre all over the place. At least one of these was in Tunisia but I have no idea where he was buried.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wrath_of_God

    What I understand Corbyn laid a wreath at was a memorial to those killed by Mossad which will have included some allegedly involved in Munich.
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    Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,814

    The Munich 1972 terrorists that were killed by #German security forces were all buried in Sidi Munaidess Cemetery in Libya! https://goo.gl/2ah1Qd it is also well documented in Simon Reeves book "One Day In September"

    Oh dear

    Commie Spy

    Munich Terrorists wreath

    Next?

    Change is coming they are getting desparate

    Sadly for Corbyn defenders, no-one has said, implied, or hinted that the wreath was laid at the graves of Munich 1972 terrorists killed by German security forces.

  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,123
    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Let me be clear about this. I do not consider Boris to be fit to be PM. Not as unfit as Corbyn of course, but nevertheless not fit.

    Having said that, it is clear that he is one of the few "big beasts" in the party and that many of the membership feel otherwise. Would it really be wise for the PCP to deny the members the opportunity to vote for or against him? I think it might prove extremely divisive in a party structure that is already creaking and weak. Last time out the membership were denied their say. Had May had to campaign is it possible that some of her chronic weaknesses would have become apparent before her epic election campaign? Of course the alternative was a bit of a joke but even so.

    If I were a Tory MP I would want the last 2 to be Javid and Boris. And I would work night and day to make sure Javid won.

    But surely the only point in the Tories' having the MPs stage is to allow them, with their supposedly much closer knowledge of the strengths and weaknesses of the potential runners, to screen out anyone who isn't suitable?

    If they trusted their members they would have a similar system to Labour's.
    That is the counterargument. But I believe contriving a situation where Boris was excluded from the members' choice would be extremely divisive. I fear it would cost the party a lot of activists (and most Tory activists seem to be very committed to Brexit, far more than the PCP) that it cannot afford to lose.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    I might just laugh my head off if Boris were to exit at the first stage of the next leadership contest. Doubt it'll happen, but it's a nice thought.
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    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    edited August 2018

    The Munich 1972 terrorists that were killed by #German security forces were all buried in Sidi Munaidess Cemetery in Libya! https://goo.gl/2ah1Qd it is also well documented in Simon Reeves book "One Day In September"

    Oh dear

    Commie Spy

    Munich Terrorists wreath

    Next?

    Change is coming they are getting desparate

    Try reading this fake news.

    https://uk.news.yahoo.com/jeremy-corbyn-thinks-did-not-lay-wreath-palestinian-150800975.html
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Munich terrorists are buried in Libya

    Corbyn accusers Wrong Cemetery

    Wrong City

    Wrong country

    Carry on with the Anti Corbyn Bile

    Do try to get your basic facts correct

    The senior leadership team of Black September are buried in Tunisia

    Why should you blame the poor, downtrodden workers when you can finger the bosses?
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    DavidL said:

    Let me be clear about this. I do not consider Boris to be fit to be PM. Not as unfit as Corbyn of course, but nevertheless not fit.

    Having said that, it is clear that he is one of the few "big beasts" in the party and that many of the membership feel otherwise. Would it really be wise for the PCP to deny the members the opportunity to vote for or against him? I think it might prove extremely divisive in a party structure that is already creaking and weak. Last time out the membership were denied their say. Had May had to campaign is it possible that some of her chronic weaknesses would have become apparent before her epic election campaign? Of course the alternative was a bit of a joke but even so.

    If I were a Tory MP I would want the last 2 to be Javid and Boris. And I would work night and day to make sure Javid won.

    Theresa May outpolled Boris Johnson 55-38 in the immediate aftermath of Cameron's resignation. Clearly there has been a lot of water under the bridge since, though in my experience we have not had anywhere near the turnover amongst the membership that Labour have had.

    (a) Is there a new Theresa May amongst the frontrunners?
    (b) What has the net effect been of Boris's (i) withdrawal from the last contest (ii) tenure as Foreign Secretary (iii) resignation post-Chequers?

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/06/29/theresa-may-storms-ahead-boris-among-tory-party-me/
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Alastair is of course absolutely right, there will be shenanigans in this election.

    One point to add is that, without needing any cajoling, MPs might themselves decide to vote for a candidate who is not their preferred choice, in order to stop a candidate whom they'd see as potentially disastrous. As things stand today, the obvious 'hold your nose to stop Boris' candidate is Michael Gove, a point which Michael Gove is likely to draw to the attention of his colleagues.

    Of course, things might look very different when the contest eventually happens.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,333

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    I might just laugh my head off if Boris were to exit at the first stage of the next leadership contest. Doubt it'll happen, but it's a nice thought.

    It's traditional for Fox to do that.

    Maybe the second round ?
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,954
    edited August 2018
    I know Brexiteers & the long list of stuff they don't give a feck about is poor fare compared to wreaths, however...

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1029339188435542017

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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    edited August 2018

    Alastair is of course absolutely right, there will be shenanigans in this election.

    One point to add is that, without needing any cajoling, MPs might themselves decide to vote for a candidate who is not their preferred choice, in order to stop a candidate whom they'd see as potentially disastrous. As things stand today, the obvious 'hold your nose to stop Boris' candidate is Michael Gove, a point which Michael Gove is likely to draw to the attention of his colleagues.

    Of course, things might look very different when the contest eventually happens.

    The membership will go absolutely apeshit if Gove is the second choice, so as to defeat Boris. There'll be a massive write-in campaign for Boris if they try that.
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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    FPT.

    Jeremy Corbyn will not need to be pushed if he thinks he is getting in the way. Till now the challenge for the hard left has been to retain control after he steps down. But if the NEC is reshaped as expected and with the membership now so Corbynite, that’s not really a problem.

    He might go very quickly indeed if the right replacement can be identified.

    Totally agree with Alastair on this, Corbyn will see his job as done and could go very quickly when the NEC is reshaped and the Leadership contest rules are changed at the Labour Conference in September. I also don't think that its a coincidence that there has been a concerted effort to pick a fight with Tom Watson to try to push him out as Deputy Leader over the summer. This would allow for both a Leadership and Deputy Leadership contest in the near future, which in turn could then be filled by two handpicked candidates from his wing of the party on a joint ticket.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    Mr. B, ha, I did have Fox in the back of my mind.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011
    New YouGov poll - https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/dg0rjrkwsz/Eurotrack_July18_w.pdf

    How would you vote in a referendum on membership of the EU?

    Remain: 47%
    Leave: 41%

    At this point would you prefer that Britain stays in or leaves the European Union?

    Prefer that Britain stays in the EU: 47%
    Prefer that Britain leaves in the EU: 44%
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,899
    Will Fox and Crabb be running again ?
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    I know Brexiteers & the long list of stuff they don't give a feck about is poor fare compared to wreaths, however...

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1029339188435542017

    Very smart.

    They assume it is unlikely the EU will want to kick out all those net contributors to the local economy. And that Ireland will want to compromise to avoid a hard border and/or won't in the end build one.

    So why sacrifice negotiating capital to secure those objectives?
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    I know Brexiteers & the long list of stuff they don't give a feck about is poor fare compared to wreaths, however...

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1029339188435542017

    Very smart.

    They assume it is unlikely the EU will want to kick out all those net contributors to the local economy. And that Ireland will want to compromise to avoid a hard border and/or won't in the end build one.

    So why sacrifice negotiating capital to secure those objectives?
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011
    Charles said:

    I know Brexiteers & the long list of stuff they don't give a feck about is poor fare compared to wreaths, however...

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1029339188435542017

    Very smart.

    They assume it is unlikely the EU will want to kick out all those net contributors to the local economy. And that Ireland will want to compromise to avoid a hard border and/or won't in the end build one.

    So why sacrifice negotiating capital to secure those objectives?
    Your logic breaks down when you consider that the issue they are most concerned with is maintaining tariff and restriction free trade. Surely that goes without saying? ;)
  • Options
    Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,814
    Pulpstar said:

    Dividing by 6 is certainly easier than multiplying by 7 and dividing by 47.

    True. And gives a different answer.

    (Now, multiplying by 7 and dividing by 42 would give the same answer as simply dividing by 6. The number 47, though, is a prime number)

    (/pedant)
  • Options
    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    edited August 2018
    Pulpstar said:

    Will Fox and Crabb be running again ?

    The Fox will run if the Hunt does. Crabb will probably sidestep this one.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,570
    DavidL said:

    The Munich 1972 terrorists that were killed by #German security forces were all buried in Sidi Munaidess Cemetery in Libya! https://goo.gl/2ah1Qd it is also well documented in Simon Reeves book "One Day In September"

    Oh dear

    Commie Spy

    Munich Terrorists wreath

    Next?

    Change is coming they are getting desparate

    What I understand Corbyn laid a wreath at was a memorial to those killed by Mossad which will have included some allegedly involved in Munich.
    Yep.

    There were actually two ceremonies in the Palestinian Martyr's Cemetery outside Tunis:

    i) A wreath was laid at the memorial to those killed in the Israeli raid on the PLO headquarters outside Tunis (after the PLO had butchered three Israeli civilians on a boat off Cyprus.) Corbyn stood at the back and didn't join in prayers.

    ii) There was another ceremony (15 yards away, under a red awning) to honour the leaders of the PLO assassinated by Mossad (among others - some were gunned down by another PLO faction) who were held responsible for masterminding the Munich atrocity. Corbyn helped lay the wreath and joined in prayers.
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    Scott_P said:
    Frankly he looks nervous and is trying to chose his words. He should resign but he won't
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,817
    But I have had several free trips to Israel which i keep forgetting to declare in Parliamentary debates and dont know the difference between Tunisia and Libya which one did i vote to bomb??
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    NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311

    New YouGov poll - https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/dg0rjrkwsz/Eurotrack_July18_w.pdf

    How would you vote in a referendum on membership of the EU?

    Remain: 47%
    Leave: 41%

    At this point would you prefer that Britain stays in or leaves the European Union?

    Prefer that Britain stays in the EU: 47%
    Prefer that Britain leaves in the EU: 44%

    I still think that if it came to actually voting on it then Leave would win. I’ve not met a leaver who has changed their mind.
  • Options

    New YouGov poll - https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/dg0rjrkwsz/Eurotrack_July18_w.pdf

    How would you vote in a referendum on membership of the EU?

    Remain: 47%
    Leave: 41%

    At this point would you prefer that Britain stays in or leaves the European Union?

    Prefer that Britain stays in the EU: 47%
    Prefer that Britain leaves in the EU: 44%

    Surprised that it is still so close. I would have expected remain further ahead
  • Options
    NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311

    Pulpstar said:

    Will Fox and Crabb be running again ?

    The Fox will run if the Hunt does. Crabb will probably sidestep this one.
    Johnson is a tool, May might, Rudd should.
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    Scott_P said:
    The replies to that Labour Press tweet are scorching. Still won't be enough to get rid of this idiot. His reaction to being questioned in the PA clip says it all.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011

    New YouGov poll - https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/dg0rjrkwsz/Eurotrack_July18_w.pdf

    How would you vote in a referendum on membership of the EU?

    Remain: 47%
    Leave: 41%

    At this point would you prefer that Britain stays in or leaves the European Union?

    Prefer that Britain stays in the EU: 47%
    Prefer that Britain leaves in the EU: 44%

    I still think that if it came to actually voting on it then Leave would win. I’ve not met a leaver who has changed their mind.
    Have you met many Leavers who are enthusiastic about Chequers?
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    I know Brexiteers & the long list of stuff they don't give a feck about is poor fare compared to wreaths, however...

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1029339188435542017

    Very smart.

    They assume it is unlikely the EU will want to kick out all those net contributors to the local economy. And that Ireland will want to compromise to avoid a hard border and/or won't in the end build one.

    So why sacrifice negotiating capital to secure those objectives?
    Your logic breaks down when you consider that the issue they are most concerned with is maintaining tariff and restriction free trade. Surely that goes without saying? ;)
    It would do in a rational world, but I think the EU has proven - in their determination to link trade to free movement for political purposes - that they are not acting rationally.

    It should have been possible to come up with a structure that leaves the UK outside the political project, but with free trade and mutual recognition of standards. The quid quo pro would have been higher access fees.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,976

    New YouGov poll - https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/dg0rjrkwsz/Eurotrack_July18_w.pdf

    How would you vote in a referendum on membership of the EU?

    Remain: 47%
    Leave: 41%

    At this point would you prefer that Britain stays in or leaves the European Union?

    Prefer that Britain stays in the EU: 47%
    Prefer that Britain leaves in the EU: 44%

    I still think that if it came to actually voting on it then Leave would win. I’ve not met a leaver who has changed their mind.
    I know a few who have died. That's the thing about leavers; they are just not making them anymore.
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Following on from @Cyclefree's excellent thread yesterday, our political journalism has always worked on the assumption that if you can prove a [sufficiently big] lie then a resignation should follow.

    Saying "I was present at wreath-laying but don't think I was involved" in one piece to camera then admitting "I laid one wreath" in another broadcast interview within 24 hours ought to qualify.
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    The fieldwork dates are 06-10 August, before this recent scandal but well into the antisemitism scandal, so I don’t get what his point is.
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    kjhkjh Posts: 10,571

    New YouGov poll - https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/dg0rjrkwsz/Eurotrack_July18_w.pdf

    How would you vote in a referendum on membership of the EU?

    Remain: 47%
    Leave: 41%

    At this point would you prefer that Britain stays in or leaves the European Union?

    Prefer that Britain stays in the EU: 47%
    Prefer that Britain leaves in the EU: 44%

    I appreciate these are 2 different questions, but I struggle to see why the leave vote changes by 3%. The only thought I had was that those 3% wanted to leave, but were so fed up that if there was another referendum they wouldn't vote or wanted to leave but couldn't be bothered to walk to the polling station. Any other thoughts?
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    BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191

    Scott_P said:
    The replies to that Labour Press tweet are scorching. Still won't be enough to get rid of this idiot. His reaction to being questioned in the PA clip says it all.
    "If I were you I would be considering my position. We all know it’s going to get worse and you’ll need to lie more and more. Is this what you got into politics for?"~

    early on and bang on the point.

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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Pulpstar said:

    Will Fox and Crabb be running again ?

    The Fox will run if the Hunt does. Crabb will probably sidestep this one.
    Long runs the Fox.
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    BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191
    "it's not the lie, it's the cover-up"
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,817
    Scott_P said:
    So its someone who once met someone who once was in the same City as one of the Munich terrorists about 11 years before they became the Munich Terrorists now is it?

    Its absurd Just give it up Guido FFS
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,621

    Scott_P said:
    The replies to that Labour Press tweet are scorching. Still won't be enough to get rid of this idiot. His reaction to being questioned in the PA clip says it all.
    On occasion Corbyn has snapped at the media and his opponents. No matter how temperate a disposition someone has they will crack. What is amusing is the very careful phrasing and arguments about it that are ongoing. When people have to get so carefull in their language it often raises a red flag.
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    Dura_Ace said:

    New YouGov poll - https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/dg0rjrkwsz/Eurotrack_July18_w.pdf

    How would you vote in a referendum on membership of the EU?

    Remain: 47%
    Leave: 41%

    At this point would you prefer that Britain stays in or leaves the European Union?

    Prefer that Britain stays in the EU: 47%
    Prefer that Britain leaves in the EU: 44%

    I still think that if it came to actually voting on it then Leave would win. I’ve not met a leaver who has changed their mind.
    I know a few who have died. That's the thing about leavers; they are just not making them anymore.
    And no remainers have died. Silly argument
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    I know Brexiteers & the long list of stuff they don't give a feck about is poor fare compared to wreaths, however...

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1029339188435542017

    Very smart.

    They assume it is unlikely the EU will want to kick out all those net contributors to the local economy. And that Ireland will want to compromise to avoid a hard border and/or won't in the end build one.

    So why sacrifice negotiating capital to secure those objectives?
    Your logic breaks down when you consider that the issue they are most concerned with is maintaining tariff and restriction free trade. Surely that goes without saying? ;)
    It would do in a rational world, but I think the EU has proven - in their determination to link trade to free movement for political purposes - that they are not acting rationally.

    It should have been possible to come up with a structure that leaves the UK outside the political project, but with free trade and mutual recognition of standards. The quid quo pro would have been higher access fees.
    If that was the quid quo pro to aim for, campaigning based on not sending any money to Brussels was somewhat self-defeating.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    The Munich 1972 terrorists that were killed by #German security forces were all buried in Sidi Munaidess Cemetery in Libya! https://goo.gl/2ah1Qd it is also well documented in Simon Reeves book "One Day In September"

    Oh dear

    Commie Spy

    Munich Terrorists wreath

    Next?

    Change is coming they are getting desparate

    Oh dear indeed. You used to be a rational poster, giving worthwhile insights into the Labour Party.

    Now you are just regurgitating the bilious vomit of Sqwawkbox.

    But it is amusing to see you taking the words of The Blessed Jeremy to heart. By his thinking, people who were instrumental in planning the Munich outrages must not have been participating or getting involved in it.

    People like Atef Bseiso, whose grave no-one disputes was within feet of Corbyn at the wreath laying. And if the head of Mossad was convinced Atef Bseiso was instrumental in planning the Munich outrages, that passes my credibility threashold.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,976

    Dura_Ace said:

    New YouGov poll - https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/dg0rjrkwsz/Eurotrack_July18_w.pdf

    How would you vote in a referendum on membership of the EU?

    Remain: 47%
    Leave: 41%

    At this point would you prefer that Britain stays in or leaves the European Union?

    Prefer that Britain stays in the EU: 47%
    Prefer that Britain leaves in the EU: 44%

    I still think that if it came to actually voting on it then Leave would win. I’ve not met a leaver who has changed their mind.
    I know a few who have died. That's the thing about leavers; they are just not making them anymore.
    And no remainers have died. Silly argument
    They don't die at anywhere near the rate of decrepit leavers.
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,817

    Following on from @Cyclefree's excellent thread yesterday, our political journalism has always worked on the assumption that if you can prove a [sufficiently big] lie then a resignation should follow.

    Saying "I was present at wreath-laying but don't think I was involved" in one piece to camera then admitting "I laid one wreath" in another broadcast interview within 24 hours ought to qualify.

    How about saying we have a Granny House Theft Policy one day

    Then saying the next day we dont but "nothing has changed"
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    From an engineering point of view I'd be interested to know how a bridge that had been standing since 1967 could collapse like this.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponte_Morandi
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,822
    Afternoon all :)

    All I can think about this afternoon are those poor sods in Genoa who were going about their normal daily business when their lives were brutally cut short.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011
    kjh said:

    New YouGov poll - https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/dg0rjrkwsz/Eurotrack_July18_w.pdf

    How would you vote in a referendum on membership of the EU?

    Remain: 47%
    Leave: 41%

    At this point would you prefer that Britain stays in or leaves the European Union?

    Prefer that Britain stays in the EU: 47%
    Prefer that Britain leaves in the EU: 44%

    I appreciate these are 2 different questions, but I struggle to see why the leave vote changes by 3%. The only thought I had was that those 3% wanted to leave, but were so fed up that if there was another referendum they wouldn't vote or wanted to leave but couldn't be bothered to walk to the polling station. Any other thoughts?
    The first question does have an option for "I would not vote" which gets 5% so that probably accounts for most of it.

    What's perhaps significant is that the two results are so similar. The phenomenon of "Releavers" has completely disappeared.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Dura_Ace said:

    New YouGov poll - https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/dg0rjrkwsz/Eurotrack_July18_w.pdf

    How would you vote in a referendum on membership of the EU?

    Remain: 47%
    Leave: 41%

    At this point would you prefer that Britain stays in or leaves the European Union?

    Prefer that Britain stays in the EU: 47%
    Prefer that Britain leaves in the EU: 44%

    I still think that if it came to actually voting on it then Leave would win. I’ve not met a leaver who has changed their mind.
    I know a few who have died. That's the thing about leavers; they are just not making them anymore.
    And no remainers have died. Silly argument
    Because of the age profiles, Leavers will be dying at a faster rate of knots than Remainers. If no one changes their minds, Leavers are strategically sunk.

    Leavers have put absolutely no effort into changing Remainers' minds, instead concentrating on reinforcing every prejudice that Remain voters might have about them. Weird.
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    Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,814
    kjh said:

    New YouGov poll - https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/dg0rjrkwsz/Eurotrack_July18_w.pdf

    How would you vote in a referendum on membership of the EU?

    Remain: 47%
    Leave: 41%

    At this point would you prefer that Britain stays in or leaves the European Union?

    Prefer that Britain stays in the EU: 47%
    Prefer that Britain leaves in the EU: 44%

    I appreciate these are 2 different questions, but I struggle to see why the leave vote changes by 3%. The only thought I had was that those 3% wanted to leave, but were so fed up that if there was another referendum they wouldn't vote or wanted to leave but couldn't be bothered to walk to the polling station. Any other thoughts?
    There are people who voted Remain and would probably vote Remain again if it was demonstrably decided that a further referendum was essential but think that the decision was made in 2016 and should be followed through.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    The fieldwork dates are 06-10 August, before this recent scandal but well into the antisemitism scandal, so I don’t get what his point is.
    What Owen Jones does ignore is that UKIP is on 5%.

    They are likely to field a very, very small number of candidates. They don't have the personnel or the cash to run and lose lots of deposits. Where are these voters with no UKIP candidate going to go?

    a) Conservative
    b) Corbyn
    c) Can't be arsed Party.

    My money is mostly a) and c).......
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,817

    The Munich 1972 terrorists that were killed by #German security forces were all buried in Sidi Munaidess Cemetery in Libya! https://goo.gl/2ah1Qd it is also well documented in Simon Reeves book "One Day In September"

    Oh dear

    Commie Spy

    Munich Terrorists wreath

    Next?

    Change is coming they are getting desparate

    Oh dear indeed. You used to be a rational poster, giving worthwhile insights into the Labour Party.

    Now you are just regurgitating the bilious vomit of Sqwawkbox.

    But it is amusing to see you taking the words of The Blessed Jeremy to heart. By his thinking, people who were instrumental in planning the Munich outrages must not have been participating or getting involved in it.

    People like Atef Bseiso, whose grave no-one disputes was within feet of Corbyn at the wreath laying. And if the head of Mossad was convinced Atef Bseiso was instrumental in planning the Munich outrages, that passes my credibility threashold.
    But you believed Corbyn was a Commie Spy

    The boy who cried wolf and all that
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    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    Pulpstar said:

    Dividing by 6 is certainly easier than multiplying by 7 and dividing by 47.

    True. And gives a different answer.

    (Now, multiplying by 7 and dividing by 42 would give the same answer as simply dividing by 6. The number 47, though, is a prime number)

    (/pedant)
    Pulpstar is referring to calculating the VAT for the old rate of 17.5%.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,570

    Dura_Ace said:

    New YouGov poll - https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/dg0rjrkwsz/Eurotrack_July18_w.pdf

    How would you vote in a referendum on membership of the EU?

    Remain: 47%
    Leave: 41%

    At this point would you prefer that Britain stays in or leaves the European Union?

    Prefer that Britain stays in the EU: 47%
    Prefer that Britain leaves in the EU: 44%

    I still think that if it came to actually voting on it then Leave would win. I’ve not met a leaver who has changed their mind.
    I know a few who have died. That's the thing about leavers; they are just not making them anymore.
    And no remainers have died. Silly argument
    Leavers Remainers have put absolutely no effort into changing Remainers' Leavers' minds, instead concentrating on reinforcing every prejudice that Remain Leave voters might have about them. Weird.
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    Following on from @Cyclefree's excellent thread yesterday, our political journalism has always worked on the assumption that if you can prove a [sufficiently big] lie then a resignation should follow.

    Saying "I was present at wreath-laying but don't think I was involved" in one piece to camera then admitting "I laid one wreath" in another broadcast interview within 24 hours ought to qualify.

    How about saying we have a Granny House Theft Policy one day

    Then saying the next day we dont but "nothing has changed"
    Pretty desperate stuff now BJO.

    Corbyn has been comphensively found out by his own words

    And this will just keep giving day after day, joke after joke, as he becomes a National laughing stock but sadly his actions are no laughing matter

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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,817
    Jezza going for the Morris Dancer TSE vote now

    https://twitter.com/EL4JC/status/1029342973354500097

    I am off to hear him in Ben Bradley territory tomorrow
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,822
    One more thing...

    I'm a huge fan of Freedom of Speech but I would ban Twitter, drag all Twitter account holders into the street and ritually disembowel them.

    How many times do people have to tell the same joke before it stops being funny - two or three at most?

    Oh I forgot - it's Freedom of Speech and I have the God-given right for which I must go on my knees and give thanks - to be offended.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Dura_Ace said:

    New YouGov poll - https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/dg0rjrkwsz/Eurotrack_July18_w.pdf

    How would you vote in a referendum on membership of the EU?

    Remain: 47%
    Leave: 41%

    At this point would you prefer that Britain stays in or leaves the European Union?

    Prefer that Britain stays in the EU: 47%
    Prefer that Britain leaves in the EU: 44%

    I still think that if it came to actually voting on it then Leave would win. I’ve not met a leaver who has changed their mind.
    I know a few who have died. That's the thing about leavers; they are just not making them anymore.
    And no remainers have died. Silly argument
    Leavers Remainers have put absolutely no effort into changing Remainers' Leavers' minds, instead concentrating on reinforcing every prejudice that Remain Leave voters might have about them. Weird.
    You deleted the bit that makes Leavers' approach especially weird.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    The Munich 1972 terrorists that were killed by #German security forces were all buried in Sidi Munaidess Cemetery in Libya! https://goo.gl/2ah1Qd it is also well documented in Simon Reeves book "One Day In September"

    Oh dear

    Commie Spy

    Munich Terrorists wreath

    Next?

    Change is coming they are getting desparate

    Oh dear indeed. You used to be a rational poster, giving worthwhile insights into the Labour Party.

    Now you are just regurgitating the bilious vomit of Sqwawkbox.

    But it is amusing to see you taking the words of The Blessed Jeremy to heart. By his thinking, people who were instrumental in planning the Munich outrages must not have been participating or getting involved in it.

    People like Atef Bseiso, whose grave no-one disputes was within feet of Corbyn at the wreath laying. And if the head of Mossad was convinced Atef Bseiso was instrumental in planning the Munich outrages, that passes my credibility threashold.
    But you believed Corbyn was a Commie Spy

    The boy who cried wolf and all that
    Even if I did - even if I still did - that would have fuck all to do with you ignoring rock solid facts about this later scandal. Corbyn could survive being accused of being a spy and yet still have to leave the leadership - if he is found to have paid respects at the grave of a plotter of the obscenity of an attack on the Munich Olympics.

    Which he was happy to brag about to the Morning Star, when it was enhancing his right-on credentials.
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    NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311
    I’ve always said that this might not hurt Corbyn on percentages. 4% of the population are Muslim, and if the things I heard being said publically by reasonable people when I lived in Bradford then I would expect this is going down well there.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Jezza going for the Morris Dancer TSE vote now

    https://twitter.com/EL4JC/status/1029342973354500097

    I am off to hear him in Ben Bradley territory tomorrow

    What's the point behind this picture? The old socialist dictum that proper tea is theft?
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    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited August 2018

    Following on from @Cyclefree's excellent thread yesterday, our political journalism has always worked on the assumption that if you can prove a [sufficiently big] lie then a resignation should follow.

    Saying "I was present at wreath-laying but don't think I was involved" in one piece to camera then admitting "I laid one wreath" in another broadcast interview within 24 hours ought to qualify.

    LOL, I love how you claim to be calling out lies by telling a lie yourself.

    Your quote of Corbyn saying "I laid one wreath" conveniently leaves out his very next words that the wreath was for people who died in the 1985 attack - not for the people who died in the 1992 raids, which is what he's being criticised for.

    https://twitter.com/VJRichMcCarthy/status/1029351739005313024

    Whether Corbyn is telling the truth about not laying a wreath for the 1992 incident, I have no idea, but it's flat-out "fake news" to claim he's "admitted" to doing so. But is typical of Tory commentators for ruining valid attacks on Corbyn by going overboard.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,954
    AndyJS said:

    From an engineering point of view I'd be interested to know how a bridge that had been standing since 1967 could collapse like this.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponte_Morandi

    Totally unimportant in the circumstances, but slightly disappointed that the bridge was named after the engineer who designed it rather than the artist (one of my favourite painters).
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    The fieldwork dates are 06-10 August, before this recent scandal but well into the antisemitism scandal, so I don’t get what his point is.
    What Owen Jones does ignore is that UKIP is on 5%.

    They are likely to field a very, very small number of candidates. They don't have the personnel or the cash to run and lose lots of deposits. Where are these voters with no UKIP candidate going to go?

    a) Conservative
    b) Corbyn
    c) Can't be arsed Party.

    My money is mostly a) and c).......
    It depends really on how Brexit goes. If these voters aren’t that angry (a. for sure. If they are miffed, and don’t feel like they owe the Tories much, it’ll be (c.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,954

    Jezza going for the Morris Dancer TSE vote now

    https://twitter.com/EL4JC/status/1029342973354500097

    I am off to hear him in Ben Bradley territory tomorrow

    What's the point behind this picture? The old socialist dictum that proper tea is theft?
    Boom & indeed tish.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    AndyJS said:

    From an engineering point of view I'd be interested to know how a bridge that had been standing since 1967 could collapse like this.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponte_Morandi

    There was torrential rain. Maybe the additional weight of water placed a terminal stress on some part of the structure - or the water washed away some support.
This discussion has been closed.