Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The rise of cultural leftism

SystemSystem Posts: 11,020
edited August 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The rise of cultural leftism

Traditionally, the left has always put inequality of income and wealth at the core of its appeal. All the way back to Marx, the argument was that a small number of rich people were rigging the system to benefit themselves, and if you are working-class and on a stagnating income, you need to band together with other working-class people through Labour and the unions to change matters. With middle-class sympathisers, this would potentially make up a majority.

Read the full story here


«134

Comments

  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115
    "People like Gove and Javid recognise that and are trying to do something about it: more greenery, more housing, and so on. But do most Tory members? Or will they simply vote for whoever is unscrupulous enough to offer them the most hardline Brexiteer rhetoric (hello, Boris)?"

    I suspect that Boris would be happy to go with the direction of travel of Gove and Javid. It's not an either/or.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,058
    Is Nick aware that an Association Agreement is the policy of the current government?
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,966
    Thanks for the header, Nick.

    Is Hammond really going to come in more than £10bn under forecast at the end of the fiscal year? :o
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. D, the economy is just doing better right now because people are stocking up on butter and bread, so they can, for a short time, enjoy sandwiches if we leave the EU.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,983

    "People like Gove and Javid recognise that and are trying to do something about it: more greenery, more housing, and so on. But do most Tory members? Or will they simply vote for whoever is unscrupulous enough to offer them the most hardline Brexiteer rhetoric (hello, Boris)?"

    I suspect that Boris would be happy to go with the direction of travel of Gove and Javid. It's not an either/or.

    Boris will go in the dirtection of travel which appears to benefit Boris.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    King Cole, quite. The ambition of Boris is the sun around which all his thoughts, words, and deeds revolve. If vainglory had a human face, it would be Boris.

    As I, and Mr. Smithson (I believe), implied last thread, he might even end up securing May in place for the next election if the PCP anti-Boris faction fears he could win a contest.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280
    Love that picture. If Corbyn showed that sense of humour more often I might dislike him less.

    On topic, an excellent and thought provoking thread from Nick. There is a tendency, which the Tories have been particularly guilty of, to think that politics is economics and that the great god GDP (which Robert did an excellent demolition of in one of his videos) is all.

    If anyone seriously believed this then the Brexit referendum should have convinced them otherwise but, as with Trump in the US, the response is always people are stupid, they don't understand, they don't realise what they have done instead of coming to terms with the fact that people have other concerns that the establishment were simply not addressing.

    The challenge for this government, and indeed all governments, is to nudge us to a society where the majority want to live. I see almost no sign of such a vision. Today we have excellent borrowing figures yet again but they will not swing a single vote. People want action on housing, on education, on social care, on student debt, on local authority services, even on defence and most of the action involves spending significant additional sums of money. A government that focuses on the deficit or even GDP, as Major's did up to 1997, faces disaster.

    Because there is this pressure to spend I agree with Nick (have I heard that somewhere before) that there is at least a soft left tendency in the country at the moment. How do Tories respond? I think that they have to go back to Cameron's mantra of "sharing the proceeds of growth" and then really make the case that these multiple goodies come from a successful economy and are not the source of it. Where is the Tory that can make that case? That is the real problem.
  • Options
    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    "Working hard might make you rich, but a more likely route is to inherit wealth and find a good tax lawyer."

    Link? ;-)

    Interesting piece, thanks Nick. We're clearly more culturally liberal as a nation, and a good thing too viz. your examples of sexism, racism and homophobia.

    However I think the economic picture is far more nuanced - e.g. attitudes to benefits, expectations of / desire for a job-for-life, consumer satisfaction with Amazon/Uber etc. all paint the younger generation as more classically right wing.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926
    RobD said:

    Thanks for the header, Nick.

    Is Hammond really going to come in more than £10bn under forecast at the end of the fiscal year? :o

    That should mean national debt as a % of gdp has already peaked I think.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,231
    'classic Marxist economic theory, as practised in the Soviet countries, hasn’t worked well'

    Lovely dry understatement there.

    'The hard headed discipline of Macdonnell matters to Labour: commitments to push taxes through the roof and let public spending rip are notably absent.'

    Were they? You mean, there were no pledges to increase borrowing to £300 billion, clear all student debt, provide free school meals for all and pay for it with taxes on private education that would have actually brought in no money?

    Because if that's hard headed discipline I'd hate to see mindless profligacy.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,966
    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    Thanks for the header, Nick.

    Is Hammond really going to come in more than £10bn under forecast at the end of the fiscal year? :o

    That should mean national debt as a % of gdp has already peaked I think.
    Peak debt? You heard it hear first! :p
  • Options
    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    Those public sector finances figures are remarkable. The Tories should go for a balanced budget and then beat Corbyn to death with it.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,231
    edited August 2018
    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    Thanks for the header, Nick.

    Is Hammond really going to come in more than £10bn under forecast at the end of the fiscal year? :o

    All other things being equal That should mean national debt as a % of gdp has already peaked I think.
    Minor adjustment for which I hope you'll forgive me.

    The problem is our economy was in such a state we've spent the whole of an economic cycle dealing with the effects of the last crash. We're just starting to move on as we're due another slump (even if we hadn't run the real risk of bringing one on ourselves next April).
  • Options
    llefllef Posts: 298
    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    Thanks for the header, Nick.

    Is Hammond really going to come in more than £10bn under forecast at the end of the fiscal year? :o

    That should mean national debt as a % of gdp has already peaked I think.
    Peak debt? You heard it hear first! :p
    yep, it is dropping, (and quite fast in fact).

    Public sector net debt (excluding both public sector banks and Bank of England) was £1,584.6 billion at the end of July 2018, equivalent to 75.2% of GDP, a decrease of £30.6 billion (or a decrease of 3.7 percentage points as a ratio of GDP) on July 2017.
  • Options
    RoyalBlue said:

    Those public sector finances figures are remarkable. The Tories should go for a balanced budget and then beat Corbyn to death with it.

    The public sector finance results are just a seasonal benefit due to the self employed paying their tax every six months.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Blue, the Conservatives have been incompetent at delivering an economic message since Osborne left.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,231
    RoyalBlue said:

    Those public sector finances figures are remarkable. The Tories should go for a balanced budget and then beat Corbyn to death with it.

    Surely more efficient to beat him to death with the tax code? It's about twelve times as long.

    And it's the way the Government (of any hue) seems to beat the rest of us to death...
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,854
    Morning all :)

    Thank you for the thought-provoking piece, Nick and as someone more on the left side of the fence than many on here, I well understand the appeal of Corbyn. The current model of capitalism hasn't worked well in the last decade for me personally - I was much better off under Labour. As I was once told, I'd rather work an hour for 5 inflated pounds than 50 deflated pence.

    The other less tangible aspect is that Conservative Governments simply run out of time - in 1964 Douglas-Hume looked completely out of touch against Wilson and in 1997 for all that the economic performance under Clarke had been impressive, the sense the zeitgeist had moved on past Major and his soapbox was palpable.

    It's more than "time for a change", more a recognition a long-serving Government remains anchored at one point culturally and in terms of the argument and the world has moved on around it. The language of austerity and 2010 sounds stale already and will be more so by 2022. No one, it seems, has a coherent and credible economic model for the 2020s and beyond.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,058
    Washington Post: Theresa May is a political genius who could “go down in history as one of the greatest prime ministers”.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/democracy-post/wp/2018/08/20/why-theresa-may-is-a-great-prime-minister/
  • Options
    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    RoyalBlue said:

    Those public sector finances figures are remarkable. The Tories should go for a balanced budget and then beat Corbyn to death with it.

    The public sector finance results are just a seasonal benefit due to the self employed paying their tax every six months.
    Err, no. Public borrowing is 40% lower than at the same point last year. It is a real improvement.

  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,610

    Mr. D, the economy is just doing better right now because people are stocking up on butter and bread, so they can, for a short time, enjoy sandwiches if we leave the EU.

    Some truth to that. While government borrowing is down, household savings are down to a record low:

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/mar/31/uk-households-savings-fall-record-low-warning-sign-economy

    Britain is living on the never-never, but that balance of debt is shifting to individuals, particularly in the squeezed middle.

  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,966

    Mr. Blue, the Conservatives have been incompetent at delivering an economic message since Osborne left.

    Who can forget the Long Term Economic Plan? :p
  • Options
    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    edited August 2018

    Mr. Blue, the Conservatives have been incompetent at delivering an economic message since Osborne left.

    You are quite right. The commitment to a balanced budget was great because it allows you to celebrate progress along the way and keep it in the public eye with the end goal in mind.

    Knowing this government, they’ll post a notice on gov.uk that we’ve reached a budget surplus on a Tuesday afternoon during August.
  • Options
    llefllef Posts: 298

    RoyalBlue said:

    Those public sector finances figures are remarkable. The Tories should go for a balanced budget and then beat Corbyn to death with it.

    The public sector finance results are just a seasonal benefit due to the self employed paying their tax every six months.
    Nevertheless, relative to the same month last year, tax take was much higher

    "Taxes on income and wealth were 6.4 per cent higher than the same month last year. In July, self-assessed income tax receipts are often particularly high"

    this implies to me that GDP might be revised up for the recent past?
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Dr. Foxy, the so-called Care ISA would help address that.

  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,231
    stodge said:

    The current model of capitalism hasn't worked well in the last decade for me personally - I was much better off under Labour. As I was once told, I'd rather work an hour for 5 inflated pounds than 50 deflated pence.

    While I have sympathy, can I please point out there are others whose experience was the reverse? Thanks to Labour's gross mismanagement of the economy I lost my job in 2008 and they made it virtually impossible for me to get another, leading to three years of unemployment (and since I was refused benefits, those were three very, very difficult years). Only when the Coalition came in was I able to retrain and find employment. I appreciate some of the schemes I used have since been removed again, but Labour didn't even consider them.
    stodge said:

    It's more than "time for a change", more a recognition a long-serving Government remains anchored at one point culturally and in terms of the argument and the world has moved on around it. The language of austerity and 2010 sounds stale already and will be more so by 2022. No one, it seems, has a coherent and credible economic model for the 2020s and beyond.

    This is true and is a well-known phenomenon that also hit Labour. The problem is that even so such a feeling only resonates if the alternative is seen as credible - just ask Neil Kinnock. Labour have no plans that would survive contact with reality and no philosophical basis to formulate any other than a sort of rehash of populist clichés and discredited Maoism/Trotskyism. I don't say they cannot win power, I do say that they are not giving anyone a compelling reason to vote for them.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280
    RoyalBlue said:

    Mr. Blue, the Conservatives have been incompetent at delivering an economic message since Osborne left.

    You are quite right. The commitment to a balanced budget was great because it allows you to celebrate progress along the way and keep it in the public eye with the end goal in mind.

    Knowing this government, they’ll post a notice on gov.uk that we’ve reached a budget surplus on a Tuesday afternoon during August.
    On a day when Hammond is not available for interviews of course.
  • Options
    RobD said:

    Mr. Blue, the Conservatives have been incompetent at delivering an economic message since Osborne left.

    Who can forget the Long Term Economic Plan? :p
    Theresa May clearly forgot or she’d have campaigned on George Osborne CH’s golden economic legacy during the last election.
  • Options
    RoyalBlue said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Those public sector finances figures are remarkable. The Tories should go for a balanced budget and then beat Corbyn to death with it.

    The public sector finance results are just a seasonal benefit due to the self employed paying their tax every six months.
    Err, no. Public borrowing is 40% lower than at the same point last year. It is a real improvement.

    BBC News

    "Public borrowing has remained on a sharp downward trend, creating scope for the chancellor to pause the fiscal consolidation next year and still meet his self-prescribed targets," said Samuel Tombs, chief UK economist at Pantheon Macroeconomics.

    "If this trend persists, borrowing will total just £23.7bn this year, much less than the £37.1bn forecast by the OBR in the Spring Statement."

    Ruth Gregory, senior UK economist at Capital Economics, was more cautious, pointing out that "an undershoot of this magnitude is unlikely".

    She added: "The recent improvement has been partly due to temporary factors, such as the timing of gilt issuance and redemptions."
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,231

    Washington Post: Theresa May is a political genius who could “go down in history as one of the greatest prime ministers”.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/democracy-post/wp/2018/08/20/why-theresa-may-is-a-great-prime-minister/

    An interesting article.

    The only serious omission is it doesn't say what the author was smoking when he wrote it.
  • Options
    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    edited August 2018
    ydoethur said:

    stodge said:

    The current model of capitalism hasn't worked well in the last decade for me personally - I was much better off under Labour. As I was once told, I'd rather work an hour for 5 inflated pounds than 50 deflated pence.

    While I have sympathy, can I please point out there are others whose experience was the reverse? Thanks to Labour's gross mismanagement of the economy I lost my job in 2008 and they made it virtually impossible for me to get another, leading to three years of unemployment (and since I was refused benefits, those were three very, very difficult years). Only when the Coalition came in was I able to retrain and find employment. I appreciate some of the schemes I used have since been removed again, but Labour didn't even consider them.
    stodge said:

    It's more than "time for a change", more a recognition a long-serving Government remains anchored at one point culturally and in terms of the argument and the world has moved on around it. The language of austerity and 2010 sounds stale already and will be more so by 2022. No one, it seems, has a coherent and credible economic model for the 2020s and beyond.

    This is true and is a well-known phenomenon that also hit Labour. The problem is that even so such a feeling only resonates if the alternative is seen as credible - just ask Neil Kinnock. Labour have no plans that would survive contact with reality and no philosophical basis to formulate any other than a sort of rehash of populist clichés and discredited Maoism/Trotskyism. I don't say they cannot win power, I do say that they are not giving anyone a compelling reason to vote for them.
    Sorry to hear about those 3 years - must have been a very stressful time.

    In the government’s defence, I suppose there’s no point trying to market successes while the media obsess over Brexit. Another reason to accept whatever May comes back with in October.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,966

    RobD said:

    Mr. Blue, the Conservatives have been incompetent at delivering an economic message since Osborne left.

    Who can forget the Long Term Economic Plan? :p
    Theresa May clearly forgot or she’d have campaigned on George Osborne CH’s golden economic legacy during the last election.
    You ignore the advice of the most popular heir-to-a-baronetcy in the realm at your own peril!
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,231
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Mr. Blue, the Conservatives have been incompetent at delivering an economic message since Osborne left.

    Who can forget the Long Term Economic Plan? :p
    Theresa May clearly forgot or she’d have campaigned on George Osborne CH’s golden economic legacy during the last election.
    You ignore the advice of the most popular heir-to-a-baronetcy in the realm at your own peril!
    His advice might have wallpapered over the cracks?

    I'll get my coat...

    Have a good morning.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115
    DavidL said:

    Because there is this pressure to spend I agree with Nick (have I heard that somewhere before) that there is at least a soft left tendency in the country at the moment. How do Tories respond? I think that they have to go back to Cameron's mantra of "sharing the proceeds of growth" and then really make the case that these multiple goodies come from a successful economy and are not the source of it. Where is the Tory that can make that case? That is the real problem.

    If Boris were to do a Telegraph piece on that, then May should REALLY worry.....

    I could see Boris positioning himself as Mr Brexit but also as very centrist, Green-as-Cameron, relaxing the purse strings, sharing the proceeds of growth and (importantly) hammering the excesses of business. He has a record now of not sucking up to business. Part of his long term economic self-advancement plan?
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115
    ydoethur said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Those public sector finances figures are remarkable. The Tories should go for a balanced budget and then beat Corbyn to death with it.

    Surely more efficient to beat him to death with the tax code? It's about twelve times as long.

    And it's the way the Government (of any hue) seems to beat the rest of us to death...
    Arf!
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Sorry to hear about that, Mr. Doethur. It is not much fun when your income is mostly a fictional item.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280

    Mr. D, the economy is just doing better right now because people are stocking up on butter and bread, so they can, for a short time, enjoy sandwiches if we leave the EU.

    Surely its canned food and shotgun shells?
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115
    ydoethur said:

    'classic Marxist economic theory, as practised in the Soviet countries, hasn’t worked well'

    Lovely dry understatement there.

    'The hard headed discipline of Macdonnell matters to Labour: commitments to push taxes through the roof and let public spending rip are notably absent.'

    Were they? You mean, there were no pledges to increase borrowing to £300 billion, clear all student debt, provide free school meals for all and pay for it with taxes on private education that would have actually brought in no money?

    Because if that's hard headed discipline I'd hate to see mindless profligacy.

    The next Labour Manifesto will have McDonnell giving out the biggest vote buy in UK electoral history.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. L, we're British. Cartridges!

    And you missed an apostrophe.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,610
    ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    Thanks for the header, Nick.

    Is Hammond really going to come in more than £10bn under forecast at the end of the fiscal year? :o

    All other things being equal That should mean national debt as a % of gdp has already peaked I think.
    Minor adjustment for which I hope you'll forgive me.

    The problem is our economy was in such a state we've spent the whole of an economic cycle dealing with the effects of the last crash. We're just starting to move on as we're due another slump (even if we hadn't run the real risk of bringing one on ourselves next April).
    The other issue economically is that the recovery has been very patchy, being centrered on London and SE England and some university cities, with many regions worse off in real terms, while the older and richer groups have done well. The BoE had this interesting speech on the subject a couple of years back:

    https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/speech/2016/whose-recovery

    Such economic discontent was a major driver of the Brexit vote, and also a driver of the cultural conservatism that is the polar opposite to the header: A craving for well paid working class jobs, with stable communities, social housing and backed up by a welfare state. Global Britain neglecting Little Britain is not a recipie for Tory success. They are not two horses that can be ridden similtaneously.

    Economics is not dead as cause of voting, but is changing.

  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,334
    RoyalBlue said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Those public sector finances figures are remarkable. The Tories should go for a balanced budget and then beat Corbyn to death with it.

    The public sector finance results are just a seasonal benefit due to the self employed paying their tax every six months.
    Err, no. Public borrowing is 40% lower than at the same point last year. It is a real improvement.

    This exchange illustrates the problem of campaigning on macroeconomic issues - X says this, Y says that, people lose the plot and revert to thinking about their personal income, which has for most people been at best flat for yonks.

    I agree that no party is really persuading people that they've got the hang of economic wonderland - but that's why voters say oh well, let's vote for the party that seems closest on values instead and hope they can sort it out in that general direction.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,854
    ydoethur said:

    While I have sympathy, can I please point out there are others whose experience was the reverse? Thanks to Labour's gross mismanagement of the economy I lost my job in 2008 and they made it virtually impossible for me to get another, leading to three years of unemployment (and since I was refused benefits, those were three very, very difficult years). Only when the Coalition came in was I able to retrain and find employment. I appreciate some of the schemes I used have since been removed again, but Labour didn't even consider them.

    This is true and is a well-known phenomenon that also hit Labour. The problem is that even so such a feeling only resonates if the alternative is seen as credible - just ask Neil Kinnock. Labour have no plans that would survive contact with reality and no philosophical basis to formulate any other than a sort of rehash of populist clichés and discredited Maoism/Trotskyism. I don't say they cannot win power, I do say that they are not giving anyone a compelling reason to vote for them.

    In response to your first point, Mrs Stodge, who works in the City, lost her job in 2008 as a direct result of the GFC. I realise my experience might be unique - it might not. Anyone who loses their job through no fault of their own is deserving of understanding and if you want to blame the Government, fine. I would contend a lot of people did very well ion the years 1997-2006 on the back of cheap fuel, cheap food, cheap money and endlessly rising asset values. It's also interesting to see how events like a job loss polarise or re-enforce political views.

    On your second, it's a popular refrain there's no reason FOR voting Labour and I get that but why should I, or anyone, vote FOR the Conservatives? They seem completely bereft of ideas as to how the country should operate in the 2020s and beyond.

    As for today's borrowing figures, yes it's all very encouraging yet as I see the crisis in local Government finance evolving I'm forced to wonder if, to paraphrase Eric Morecambe, we've got all the money just not in the right places.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280

    DavidL said:

    Because there is this pressure to spend I agree with Nick (have I heard that somewhere before) that there is at least a soft left tendency in the country at the moment. How do Tories respond? I think that they have to go back to Cameron's mantra of "sharing the proceeds of growth" and then really make the case that these multiple goodies come from a successful economy and are not the source of it. Where is the Tory that can make that case? That is the real problem.

    If Boris were to do a Telegraph piece on that, then May should REALLY worry.....

    I could see Boris positioning himself as Mr Brexit but also as very centrist, Green-as-Cameron, relaxing the purse strings, sharing the proceeds of growth and (importantly) hammering the excesses of business. He has a record now of not sucking up to business. Part of his long term economic self-advancement plan?
    I think he remains an extremely astute politician with a better sense of the zeitgeist than most of his party colleagues. And a self important, untrustworthy oaf, of course.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,995

    Mr. L, we're British. Cartridges!

    And you missed an apostrophe.

    The shell is the combination cartridge and the shot. A cartridge on its own is SFA use.
  • Options
    BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191

    Mr. Blue, the Conservatives have been incompetent at delivering an economic message since Osborne left.

    This was one of the key misteps of 2017 - they had a good, strong economic argument and it barely set sail out of port. It completed ceded the ground on that front.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,983

    Washington Post: Theresa May is a political genius who could “go down in history as one of the greatest prime ministers”.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/democracy-post/wp/2018/08/20/why-theresa-may-is-a-great-prime-minister/

    It’s an argument. One can consider it, but at the moemnt the expected result looks unlikely
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280

    Mr. L, we're British. Cartridges!

    And you missed an apostrophe.

    I feel suitably chastised on both counts.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    edited August 2018
    Mr. Ace, I was unaware of that. It seems I fell into the S/Z error, and thought cartridge was simply the correct/British version of the American.

    Cheers, and apologies to Mr. L.

    Mr. Paris, agree entirely. It was delinquent idiocy of the most obvious, and therefore unforgivable, variety.

    Edited extra bit: King Cole, some people still try to claim John was a good king, so it's unsurprising some think May is a good PM.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Because there is this pressure to spend I agree with Nick (have I heard that somewhere before) that there is at least a soft left tendency in the country at the moment. How do Tories respond? I think that they have to go back to Cameron's mantra of "sharing the proceeds of growth" and then really make the case that these multiple goodies come from a successful economy and are not the source of it. Where is the Tory that can make that case? That is the real problem.

    If Boris were to do a Telegraph piece on that, then May should REALLY worry.....

    I could see Boris positioning himself as Mr Brexit but also as very centrist, Green-as-Cameron, relaxing the purse strings, sharing the proceeds of growth and (importantly) hammering the excesses of business. He has a record now of not sucking up to business. Part of his long term economic self-advancement plan?
    I think he remains an extremely astute politician with a better sense of the zeitgeist than most of his party colleagues. And a self important, untrustworthy oaf, of course.
    He needs to come out with a broad-ranging, personal manifesto - and not wittering on about burqas - if he wants to do something to shed that self important, untrustworthy oaf notion that is abroad in the land...
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280

    RoyalBlue said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Those public sector finances figures are remarkable. The Tories should go for a balanced budget and then beat Corbyn to death with it.

    The public sector finance results are just a seasonal benefit due to the self employed paying their tax every six months.
    Err, no. Public borrowing is 40% lower than at the same point last year. It is a real improvement.

    This exchange illustrates the problem of campaigning on macroeconomic issues - X says this, Y says that, people lose the plot and revert to thinking about their personal income, which has for most people been at best flat for yonks.

    I agree that no party is really persuading people that they've got the hang of economic wonderland - but that's why voters say oh well, let's vote for the party that seems closest on values instead and hope they can sort it out in that general direction.
    The chart at figure 1 in today's release is startling: https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/bulletins/publicsectorfinances/july2018

    By the time of the budget a more politically astute Chancellor and PM would see the opportunity to increase public spending by up to £10bn and reduce the borrowing target at the same time. This would allow them to address at least some of the pressures they are facing, if only they had some idea of what they want to do.

    It makes May's alleged refusal to agree to a 3% increase in police salaries completely incomprehensible. Javid was clearly right about that.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Looks like the government's £20bn extra for the NHS is going to be available, contrary to what the naysayers naysaid.

    (Subject to things not falling apart over Brexit, of course).
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115
    DavidL said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Those public sector finances figures are remarkable. The Tories should go for a balanced budget and then beat Corbyn to death with it.

    The public sector finance results are just a seasonal benefit due to the self employed paying their tax every six months.
    Err, no. Public borrowing is 40% lower than at the same point last year. It is a real improvement.

    This exchange illustrates the problem of campaigning on macroeconomic issues - X says this, Y says that, people lose the plot and revert to thinking about their personal income, which has for most people been at best flat for yonks.

    I agree that no party is really persuading people that they've got the hang of economic wonderland - but that's why voters say oh well, let's vote for the party that seems closest on values instead and hope they can sort it out in that general direction.
    The chart at figure 1 in today's release is startling: https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/bulletins/publicsectorfinances/july2018

    By the time of the budget a more politically astute Chancellor and PM would see the opportunity to increase public spending by up to £10bn and reduce the borrowing target at the same time. This would allow them to address at least some of the pressures they are facing, if only they had some idea of what they want to do.

    It makes May's alleged refusal to agree to a 3% increase in police salaries completely incomprehensible. Javid was clearly right about that.
    The smart thing to do in the wider party political context would be to push up the NHS Budget. The most obvious sign of Brexit delivering, it would give her far more leeway on having to make further concessions on the Chequers Deal to the EU.

    The down side is that it will be a big win for Boris's Bus. And so for Boris's ambitions to oust her. So no doubt she will be as stubborn as she was about police pay.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    On topic: Good piece by Nick. His comments in the last two paragraphs are spot-on.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280

    DavidL said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Those public sector finances figures are remarkable. The Tories should go for a balanced budget and then beat Corbyn to death with it.

    The public sector finance results are just a seasonal benefit due to the self employed paying their tax every six months.
    Err, no. Public borrowing is 40% lower than at the same point last year. It is a real improvement.

    This exchange illustrates the problem of campaigning on macroeconomic issues - X says this, Y says that, people lose the plot and revert to thinking about their personal income, which has for most people been at best flat for yonks.

    I agree that no party is really persuading people that they've got the hang of economic wonderland - but that's why voters say oh well, let's vote for the party that seems closest on values instead and hope they can sort it out in that general direction.
    The chart at figure 1 in today's release is startling: https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/bulletins/publicsectorfinances/july2018

    By the time of the budget a more politically astute Chancellor and PM would see the opportunity to increase public spending by up to £10bn and reduce the borrowing target at the same time. This would allow them to address at least some of the pressures they are facing, if only they had some idea of what they want to do.

    It makes May's alleged refusal to agree to a 3% increase in police salaries completely incomprehensible. Javid was clearly right about that.
    The smart thing to do in the wider party political context would be to push up the NHS Budget. The most obvious sign of Brexit delivering, it would give her far more leeway on having to make further concessions on the Chequers Deal to the EU.

    The down side is that it will be a big win for Boris's Bus. And so for Boris's ambitions to oust her. So no doubt she will be as stubborn as she was about police pay.
    The problem with that is that the NHS budget is already so massive that £10bn more will not make an obvious and appreciable difference in an acceptable timeframe. There may be bigger bangs for their bucks. Personally, I would throw £5bn at new build social housing and £5bn at Social Care to stop more local authorities becoming insolvent (particularly embarrassing when they are Tory run). But £10bn is only 1.7% of government spending. There are limits to what it can do. The pressures on public service pay, for example, are immense.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited August 2018

    Mr. Blue, the Conservatives have been incompetent at delivering an economic message since Osborne left.

    It is also about portraying your enemy. The thing Osborne did was very early on was portray the two Eds as economics incompetents and made it stick. The truth is Ed Balls (despite his punchable face is not a moron or an economic incompetent). For all the willy waving, we were still talking about two people who believed that capitalism is the best economic system the world have come up with.

    Now we have the current government who can't mount an argument over anything vs died in the wool marxist with well rehearsed patter.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,836
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Those public sector finances figures are remarkable. The Tories should go for a balanced budget and then beat Corbyn to death with it.

    The public sector finance results are just a seasonal benefit due to the self employed paying their tax every six months.
    Err, no. Public borrowing is 40% lower than at the same point last year. It is a real improvement.

    This exchange illustrates the problem of campaigning on macroeconomic issues - X says this, Y says that, people lose the plot and revert to thinking about their personal income, which has for most people been at best flat for yonks.

    I agree that no party is really persuading people that they've got the hang of economic wonderland - but that's why voters say oh well, let's vote for the party that seems closest on values instead and hope they can sort it out in that general direction.
    The chart at figure 1 in today's release is startling: https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/bulletins/publicsectorfinances/july2018

    By the time of the budget a more politically astute Chancellor and PM would see the opportunity to increase public spending by up to £10bn and reduce the borrowing target at the same time. This would allow them to address at least some of the pressures they are facing, if only they had some idea of what they want to do.

    It makes May's alleged refusal to agree to a 3% increase in police salaries completely incomprehensible. Javid was clearly right about that.
    The smart thing to do in the wider party political context would be to push up the NHS Budget. The most obvious sign of Brexit delivering, it would give her far more leeway on having to make further concessions on the Chequers Deal to the EU.

    The down side is that it will be a big win for Boris's Bus. And so for Boris's ambitions to oust her. So no doubt she will be as stubborn as she was about police pay.
    The problem with that is that the NHS budget is already so massive that £10bn more will not make an obvious and appreciable difference in an acceptable timeframe. There may be bigger bangs for their bucks. Personally, I would throw £5bn at new build social housing and £5bn at Social Care to stop more local authorities becoming insolvent (particularly embarrassing when they are Tory run). But £10bn is only 1.7% of government spending. There are limits to what it can do. The pressures on public service pay, for example, are immense.
    Social care seems to be the obvious one to throw money at.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115
    DavidL said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Those public sector finances figures are remarkable. The Tories should go for a balanced budget and then beat Corbyn to death with it.

    The public sector finance results are just a seasonal benefit due to the self employed paying their tax every six months.
    Err, no. Public borrowing is 40% lower than at the same point last year. It is a real improvement.

    This exchange illustrates the problem of campaigning on macroeconomic issues - X says this, Y says that, people lose the plot and revert to thinking about their personal income, which has for most people been at best flat for yonks.

    I agree that no party is really persuading people that they've got the hang of economic wonderland - but that's why voters say oh well, let's vote for the party that seems closest on values instead and hope they can sort it out in that general direction.
    The chart at figure 1 in today's release is startling: https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/bulletins/publicsectorfinances/july2018

    By the time of the budget a more politically astute Chancellor and PM would see the opportunity to increase public spending by up to £10bn and reduce the borrowing target at the same time. This would allow them to address at least some of the pressures they are facing, if only they had some idea of what they want to do.

    It makes May's alleged refusal to agree to a 3% increase in police salaries completely incomprehensible. Javid was clearly right about that.
    The yellow line in Chart 4 of Public Sector Net Borrowing gives a striking illustration of the difference between Labour and Conservative spending. Once the shackles of adhering to Ken Clarke's spending plans were thrown off in 2000, the yellow line rises like a rocket.

    It's now back to where it was when Blair took office....
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,836
    Good article, although cultural leftism does generate its own reaction.

    Many people will vote Conservative because they loathe the values they associate with the Labour Left.
  • Options
    Five balls in and England have lost their first wicket.
  • Options
    AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    A brilliant article from Dr Nick Palmer. Thanks @NickPalmer
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,836

    RobD said:

    Mr. Blue, the Conservatives have been incompetent at delivering an economic message since Osborne left.

    Who can forget the Long Term Economic Plan? :p
    Theresa May clearly forgot or she’d have campaigned on George Osborne CH’s golden economic legacy during the last election.
    The Conservatives deserve credit for sharply reducing the public sector deficit, at the same time as reducing unemployment, and I think that's a factor in shoring up their support. But, I don't think the voters see it as a golden legacy, and would probably react badly to the Conservatives portraying it as such.

  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,058
    Sean_F said:

    Many people will vote Conservative because they loathe the values they associate with the Labour Left.

    Many more voted for Brexit for the same reason.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Urquhart, agree entirely.

    Whilst worth noting the media have also been utterly inept in that regard, that doesn't excuse the Conservative failure one iota.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    Another mega set of borrowing figures. The economy continues to surprise on the upside.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280
    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    RoyalBlue said:
    The chart at figure 1 in today's release is startling: https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/bulletins/publicsectorfinances/july2018

    By the time of the budget a more politically astute Chancellor and PM would see the opportunity to increase public spending by up to £10bn and reduce the borrowing target at the same time. This would allow them to address at least some of the pressures they are facing, if only they had some idea of what they want to do.

    It makes May's alleged refusal to agree to a 3% increase in police salaries completely incomprehensible. Javid was clearly right about that.
    The smart thing to do in the wider party political context would be to push up the NHS Budget. The most obvious sign of Brexit delivering, it would give her far more leeway on having to make further concessions on the Chequers Deal to the EU.

    The down side is that it will be a big win for Boris's Bus. And so for Boris's ambitions to oust her. So no doubt she will be as stubborn as she was about police pay.
    The problem with that is that the NHS budget is already so massive that £10bn more will not make an obvious and appreciable difference in an acceptable timeframe. There may be bigger bangs for their bucks. Personally, I would throw £5bn at new build social housing and £5bn at Social Care to stop more local authorities becoming insolvent (particularly embarrassing when they are Tory run). But £10bn is only 1.7% of government spending. There are limits to what it can do. The pressures on public service pay, for example, are immense.
    Social care seems to be the obvious one to throw money at.
    Agreed and it can largely be spent in ways that reduce pressure on the NHS as well by getting elderly folk out of hospitals with care packages that allow them to be better and more cheaply looked after elsewhere. If they get their skates on they might even avoid another winter bed crisis.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280
    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    RoyalBlue said:
    The chart at figure 1 in today's release is startling: https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/bulletins/publicsectorfinances/july2018

    By the time of the budget a more politically astute Chancellor and PM would see the opportunity to increase public spending by up to £10bn and reduce the borrowing target at the same time. This would allow them to address at least some of the pressures they are facing, if only they had some idea of what they want to do.

    It makes May's alleged refusal to agree to a 3% increase in police salaries completely incomprehensible. Javid was clearly right about that.
    The smart thing to do in the wider party political context would be to push up the NHS Budget. The most obvious sign of Brexit delivering, it would give her far more leeway on having to make further concessions on the Chequers Deal to the EU.

    The down side is that it will be a big win for Boris's Bus. And so for Boris's ambitions to oust her. So no doubt she will be as stubborn as she was about police pay.
    The problem with that is that the NHS budget is already so massive that £10bn more will not make an obvious and appreciable difference in an acceptable timeframe. There may be bigger bangs for their bucks. Personally, I would throw £5bn at new build social housing and £5bn at Social Care to stop more local authorities becoming insolvent (particularly embarrassing when they are Tory run). But £10bn is only 1.7% of government spending. There are limits to what it can do. The pressures on public service pay, for example, are immense.
    Social care seems to be the obvious one to throw money at.
    Agreed and it can largely be spent in ways that reduce pressure on the NHS as well by getting elderly folk out of hospitals with care packages that allow them to be better and more cheaply looked after elsewhere. If they get their skates on they might even avoid another winter bed crisis.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited August 2018

    Mr. Urquhart, agree entirely.

    Whilst worth noting the media have also been utterly inept in that regard, that doesn't excuse the Conservative failure one iota.

    There is a wider philosophical issue here too...the rise of the gig economy, the rise of AI etc etc etc, adjustments are going to have to be made. The world is changing rapidly, while we are also living much longer.

    We really don't hear any new ideas how as a society we are going to deal with all of this. Jezza "ban the driverless train" is the worst option, but the current government appear clueless. At least the coalition started to try and get some handle on things like pensions i.e. very sensible move to increase the retirement age.
  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Mr. Ace, I was unaware of that. It seems I fell into the S/Z error, and thought cartridge was simply the correct/British version of the American.

    Cheers, and apologies to Mr. L.

    Mr. Paris, agree entirely. It was delinquent idiocy of the most obvious, and therefore unforgivable, variety.

    Edited extra bit: King Cole, some people still try to claim John was a good king, so it's unsurprising some think May is a good PM.

    Naah, in civilian speak "shotgun cartridge" is correct and implies cartridge-with-shot-in-it.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Urquhart, indeed. Although the report a while ago (forget who by) which mentioned the bonkers idea of moving to a cashless society in a decade, it also suggested a third employment category for 'gig' jobs. That may be right or wrong but acknowledging significant changes in the economy such as that and the nature of internet shopping and adapting to them is necessary.

    AI rising just as we're developing autonomous killer robots is a very human coincidence.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280
    MaxPB said:

    Another mega set of borrowing figures. The economy continues to surprise on the upside.

    What I find interesting is that buried away in table 3 is an increase in IT of £3.4bn in IT, a 6% increase yoy. It is not easy to reconcile that with the figures for increases in real wages. There is also a near 6% increase in VAT receipts. Both of these figures suggest to me that the economy is growing somewhat faster than the GDP figures indicate.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280
    MaxPB said:

    Another mega set of borrowing figures. The economy continues to surprise on the upside.

    What I find interesting is that buried away in table 3 is an increase in IT of £3.4bn in IT, a 6% increase yoy. It is not easy to reconcile that with the figures for increases in real wages. There is also a near 6% increase in VAT receipts. Both of these figures suggest to me that the economy is growing somewhat faster than the GDP figures indicate.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205
    An interesting article. Thank you.

    But you are not being frank about what cultural leftism really means, I am afraid to say.

    Take this - “. When I grew up, it was common for people to express mildly sexist, racist or homophobic views: it’s now seen as downright embarrassing.”

    True. It was also common for people to express mildly anti-semitic views. But now, rather than being seen as downright embarrassing by some on the cultural left it is seen as practically de rigeur. It ought to be embarrassing but it isn’t.

    And you contrast a pro-Brexit Tory party with an anti-Muslim fringe with a mildly EU agnostic Labour party which is culturally in tune with the times. Come off it! We have a Labour party which has a decidedly anti-semitic fringe (at best) and which also has a remarkable capacity to embrace parts of the Islamist agenda (talking to gender separated audiences is being anti-sexist is it? Attacking female MPs who speak up for girls raped and trafficked is being anti-sexist, is it? Wanting to limit free speech when it comes to talking about Islam is liberal, is it?)

    The cultural left is good at talking about being against bad things. But in its actions it has rather more in common with the fascists it claims to be against. And in so doing it is helping to squeeze out real cultural liberalism.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    Another mega set of borrowing figures. The economy continues to surprise on the upside.

    What I find interesting is that buried away in table 3 is an increase in IT of £3.4bn in IT, a 6% increase yoy. It is not easy to reconcile that with the figures for increases in real wages. There is also a near 6% increase in VAT receipts. Both of these figures suggest to me that the economy is growing somewhat faster than the GDP figures indicate.
    Yes, YoY growth is running at about 1.8% at the moment as implied by the revenue figures.
  • Options
    TonyTony Posts: 159
    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    Another mega set of borrowing figures. The economy continues to surprise on the upside.

    What I find interesting is that buried away in table 3 is an increase in IT of £3.4bn in IT, a 6% increase yoy. It is not easy to reconcile that with the figures for increases in real wages. There is also a near 6% increase in VAT receipts. Both of these figures suggest to me that the economy is growing somewhat faster than the GDP figures indicate.
    The hard numbers of tax receipts and employment both strongly suggest that the estimate that is GDP is wrong. Think the rapidly changing economy isn't accurately reflected by official stats. GDP growth is clearly higher than the ONS think.
  • Options
    "Public sector net borrowing (excluding public sector banks) in the current financial year-to-date (April 2018 to July 2018) was £12.8 billion; that is, £8.5 billion less than in the same period in 2017; this is the lowest year-to-date (April to July) net borrowing for 16 years (2002)."

    16 years!
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,983

    Mr. Ace, I was unaware of that. It seems I fell into the S/Z error, and thought cartridge was simply the correct/British version of the American.

    Cheers, and apologies to Mr. L.

    Mr. Paris, agree entirely. It was delinquent idiocy of the most obvious, and therefore unforgivable, variety.

    Edited extra bit: King Cole, some people still try to claim John was a good king, so it's unsurprising some think May is a good PM.

    He fell out with the Pope, though, so he wasn’t all bad!
  • Options
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Mr. Blue, the Conservatives have been incompetent at delivering an economic message since Osborne left.

    Who can forget the Long Term Economic Plan? :p
    Theresa May clearly forgot or she’d have campaigned on George Osborne CH’s golden economic legacy during the last election.
    You ignore the advice of the most popular heir-to-a-baronetcy in the realm at your own peril!
    I didn't know TSE was getting one of those.
    Congrats!
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280
    edited August 2018
    Duplicate
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280
    Tony said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    Another mega set of borrowing figures. The economy continues to surprise on the upside.

    What I find interesting is that buried away in table 3 is an increase in IT of £3.4bn in IT, a 6% increase yoy. It is not easy to reconcile that with the figures for increases in real wages. There is also a near 6% increase in VAT receipts. Both of these figures suggest to me that the economy is growing somewhat faster than the GDP figures indicate.
    The hard numbers of tax receipts and employment both strongly suggest that the estimate that is GDP is wrong. Think the rapidly changing economy isn't accurately reflected by official stats. GDP growth is clearly higher than the ONS think.
    The record business investment figures combined with the somewhat alarming splurge on consumer credit point the same way. Not for the first time inaccurate figures are seriously distorting the political and policy debate.
  • Options
    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    edited August 2018

    RoyalBlue said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Those public sector finances figures are remarkable. The Tories should go for a balanced budget and then beat Corbyn to death with it.

    The public sector finance results are just a seasonal benefit due to the self employed paying their tax every six months.
    Err, no. Public borrowing is 40% lower than at the same point last year. It is a real improvement.

    This exchange illustrates the problem of campaigning on macroeconomic issues - X says this, Y says that, people lose the plot and revert to thinking about their personal income, which has for most people been at best flat for yonks.

    I agree that no party is really persuading people that they've got the hang of economic wonderland - but that's why voters say oh well, let's vote for the party that seems closest on values instead and hope they can sort it out in that general direction.
    Fortunately Nick, the public are not as stupid as you imply. Sufficient numbers are quite capable of understanding that while things might not be great personally, the big problems at the national level are being tackled, hence the success of the much-mocked long term economic plan against Miliband’s micro promises.

    Promising jam today without the foundation of secure public finances is irresponsible, and unfortunately, par for the course for the Labour Party. It would be nice if at some point they could adopt the fiscal rectitude of some of their continental peers (ie Gerhard Schroeder’s SPD).

    Once the budget is balanced, the taps can open. The government can then celebrate progress at a national and new personal level, and reap the electoral rewards. Let’s hope they do.
  • Options
    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,781
    It is sad that Nick Palmer has become an apologist for a violent, thuggish cult that has taken over a party that used to stand for a strand of opinion that was, while sometimes misguided, honourable and decent. The Tory party, through their throwing away of their trump card of economic competence by supporting Brexit, are allowing these economic imbeciles to inch toward power .
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280
    Is it just me or is this new, don't really score runs off the first 20 balls, Root looking a lot less confident and swashbuckling than the old Root? Making him captain doesn't seem to have done him any favours.

    And surely that is thank you enormously for your fabulous contributions and goodbye to Alastair Cook?
  • Options
    DavidL said:

    Is it just me or is this new, don't really score runs off the first 20 balls, Root looking a lot less confident and swashbuckling than the old Root? Making him captain doesn't seem to have done him any favours.

    And surely that is thank you enormously for your fabulous contributions and goodbye to Alastair Cook?

    To be replaced by......that is the $64k question.
  • Options
    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,781
    Cyclefree said:

    An interesting article. Thank you.

    But you are not being frank about what cultural leftism really means, I am afraid to say.

    Take this - “. When I grew up, it was common for people to express mildly sexist, racist or homophobic views: it’s now seen as downright embarrassing.”

    True. It was also common for people to express mildly anti-semitic views. But now, rather than being seen as downright embarrassing by some on the cultural left it is seen as practically de rigeur. It ought to be embarrassing but it isn’t.

    And you contrast a pro-Brexit Tory party with an anti-Muslim fringe with a mildly EU agnostic Labour party which is culturally in tune with the times. Come off it! We have a Labour party which has a decidedly anti-semitic fringe (at best) and which also has a remarkable capacity to embrace parts of the Islamist agenda (talking to gender separated audiences is being anti-sexist is it? Attacking female MPs who speak up for girls raped and trafficked is being anti-sexist, is it? Wanting to limit free speech when it comes to talking about Islam is liberal, is it?)

    The cultural left is good at talking about being against bad things. But in its actions it has rather more in common with the fascists it claims to be against. And in so doing it is helping to squeeze out real cultural liberalism.

    Great post, thank you. Momentum has a very strong fascist smell to it. They make UKIP/BNP look like a bunch of amateurs. People like Nick Palmer, who, at least from previous posts I have read seems a decent person, should be standing up to these scumbags, not endorsing them or apologising for them.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926
    edited August 2018
    DavidL said:

    Is it just me or is this new, don't really score runs off the first 20 balls, Root looking a lot less confident and swashbuckling than the old Root? Making him captain doesn't seem to have done him any favours.

    And surely that is thank you enormously for your fabulous contributions and goodbye to Alastair Cook?

    Isn't it more the match situation ? England have to try and bat for another 170 overs or so - the required rate is only 2.72 at the moment..
    And Root just got 9 in an over :dizzy:
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    King Cole, er, yeah.

    And then he made himself a papal serf, surrendering England to the Pope as a papal territory and becoming the Church's favourite son.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280
    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    Is it just me or is this new, don't really score runs off the first 20 balls, Root looking a lot less confident and swashbuckling than the old Root? Making him captain doesn't seem to have done him any favours.

    And surely that is thank you enormously for your fabulous contributions and goodbye to Alastair Cook?

    Isn't it more the match situation ? England have to try and bat for another 170 overs or so - the required rate is only 2.72 at the moment..
    And Root just got 9 in an over :dizzy:
    Clearly the match situation is weighing heavily on him but it has been very noticeable for the last several innings. The old Root used to rotate the strike and was on 30 before you had even noticed him being there. He is by far our best batsman and we really need the best out of him.
  • Options
    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,781
    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    Mr. Blue, the Conservatives have been incompetent at delivering an economic message since Osborne left.

    Who can forget the Long Term Economic Plan? :p
    Theresa May clearly forgot or she’d have campaigned on George Osborne CH’s golden economic legacy during the last election.
    The Conservatives deserve credit for sharply reducing the public sector deficit, at the same time as reducing unemployment, and I think that's a factor in shoring up their support. But, I don't think the voters see it as a golden legacy, and would probably react badly to the Conservatives portraying it as such.

    Agreed, it would be a bit like asking many people to celebrate eating gruel rather than starving. The Tory economic management of Osborne and Hammond should be celebrated, but quietly.There are certainly plenty of reasons for people looking to wackos like Corbyn for answers. Sadly the answers are never easy and Venezuelans would no doubt tell you that more socialism rarely sorts out the issues. Boring old centre line consensus politics where people simultaneously feel genuinely empowered is the answer. This needs sensible moderate less divisive politicians that are not currently at the fore. We can but hope.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205

    Cyclefree said:

    An interesting article. Thank you.

    But you are not being frank about what cultural leftism really means, I am afraid to say.

    Take this - “. When I grew up, it was common for people to express mildly sexist, racist or homophobic views: it’s now seen as downright embarrassing.”

    True. It was also common for people to express mildly anti-semitic views. But now, rather than being seen as downright embarrassing by some on the cultural left it is seen as practically de rigeur. It ought to be embarrassing but it isn’t.

    And you contrast a pro-Brexit Tory party with an anti-Muslim fringe with a mildly EU agnostic Labour party which is culturally in tune with the times. Come off it! We have a Labour party which has a decidedly anti-semitic fringe (at best) and which also has a remarkable capacity to embrace parts of the Islamist agenda (talking to gender separated audiences is being anti-sexist is it? Attacking female MPs who speak up for girls raped and trafficked is being anti-sexist, is it? Wanting to limit free speech when it comes to talking about Islam is liberal, is it?)

    The cultural left is good at talking about being against bad things. But in its actions it has rather more in common with the fascists it claims to be against. And in so doing it is helping to squeeze out real cultural liberalism.

    Great post, thank you. Momentum has a very strong fascist smell to it. They make UKIP/BNP look like a bunch of amateurs. People like Nick Palmer, who, at least from previous posts I have read seems a decent person, should be standing up to these scumbags, not endorsing them or apologising for them.
    The irony is that it is the cultural values embodied by Corbyn and his allies which put me off Labour far more than their economic incompetence.

    I have been anti-sexism, anti-homophobia, anti-racism since I was a teenager. The Tories were definitely not a cultural fit when I was young but have made moves in the right direction in recent years, though now I am less certain about them. But Labour seem to have moved away from liberalism not towards it. And it is not all down to Corbyn either. The attitude of veteran politicians like Roy Hattersley to the Rushdie fatwa started opening my eyes to the willngness of some on the left to abandon their principles when faced with threats of violence and the desire for votes, even when these came from some of the most sexist, homophobic and illiberal groups around.
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,715

    It is sad that Nick Palmer has become an apologist for a violent, thuggish cult that has taken over a party that used to stand for a strand of opinion that was, while sometimes misguided, honourable and decent. The Tory party, through their throwing away of their trump card of economic competence by supporting Brexit, are allowing these economic imbeciles to inch toward power .

    Nick Palmer has always come across to me as a reasonable person. Admittedly he is tribal and paints whatever the current position of the Labour Party is in as good a light as possible, but there are many on this site who do the same for their particular party. It is human nature to do so.
    Events can stretch a person's loyalty until it snaps and it's interesting to see when that happens. Usually the explanation given is that 'I have not left the Party, it has left me'.
    Parties do change, sometimes quite quickly, and many members probably spend a lot of their time only partly satisfied with their chosen party. The same goes for general voters, would Proportional Representation help?
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,298
    edited August 2018

    It is sad that Nick Palmer has become an apologist for a violent, thuggish cult that has taken over a party that used to stand for a strand of opinion that was, while sometimes misguided, honourable and decent. The Tory party, through their throwing away of their trump card of economic competence by supporting Brexit, are allowing these economic imbeciles to inch toward power .

    Nick Palmer has always come across to me as a reasonable person. Admittedly he is tribal and paints whatever the current position of the Labour Party is in as good a light as possible, but there are many on this site who do the same for their particular party. It is human nature to do so.
    Events can stretch a person's loyalty until it snaps and it's interesting to see when that happens. Usually the explanation given is that 'I have not left the Party, it has left me'.
    Parties do change, sometimes quite quickly, and many members probably spend a lot of their time only partly satisfied with their chosen party. The same goes for general voters, would Proportional Representation help?
    Plenty on both sides are pretty critical of their own side as posts from PB will illustrate.

    What I find difficult to take with Nick's post is that it is, as has been pointed out on here already, turning a blind eye to some of the less attractive, not to say repugnant tendencies of the modern left. All well and good if they turned up to conference, put a stand up in a side corridor and hoped for a few visitors. But these people are running the Party.

    Jeremy Corbyn is probably not an anti-semite. Possibly. But it is unarguable that he has presided over a Labour Party within which anti-semites feel emboldened. It is plausible deniability.

    We all laughed at his supposed faux pas when asked about the cemetery, but it was more acute than we realised. Jeremy Corbyn's position on anti-semitism is the very definition of being involved but not present.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,836
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    An interesting article. Thank you.

    But you are not being frank about what cultural leftism really means, I am afraid to say.

    Take this - “. When I grew up, it was common for people to express mildly sexist, racist or homophobic views: it’s now seen as downright embarrassing.”

    True. It was also common for people to express mildly anti-semitic views. But now, rather than being seen as downright embarrassing by some on the cultural left it is seen as practically de rigeur. It ought to be embarrassing but it isn’t.

    And you contrast a pro-Brexit Tory party with an anti-Muslim fringe with a mildly EU agnostic Labour party which is culturally in tune with the times. Come off it! We have a Labour party which has a decidedly anti-semitic fringe (at best) and which also has a remarkable capacity to embrace parts of the Islamist agenda (talking to gender separated audiences is being anti-sexist is it? Attacking female MPs who speak up for girls raped and trafficked is being anti-sexist, is it? Wanting to limit free speech when it comes to talking about Islam is liberal, is it?)

    The cultural left is good at talking about being against bad things. But in its actions it has rather more in common with the fascists it claims to be against. And in so doing it is helping to squeeze out real cultural liberalism.

    Great post, thank you. Momentum has a very strong fascist smell to it. They make UKIP/BNP look like a bunch of amateurs. People like Nick Palmer, who, at least from previous posts I have read seems a decent person, should be standing up to these scumbags, not endorsing them or apologising for them.
    The irony is that it is the cultural values embodied by Corbyn and his allies which put me off Labour far more than their economic incompetence.

    I have been anti-sexism, anti-homophobia, anti-racism since I was a teenager. The Tories were definitely not a cultural fit when I was young but have made moves in the right direction in recent years, though now I am less certain about them. But Labour seem to have moved away from liberalism not towards it. And it is not all down to Corbyn either. The attitude of veteran politicians like Roy Hattersley to the Rushdie fatwa started opening my eyes to the willngness of some on the left to abandon their principles when faced with threats of violence and the desire for votes, even when these came from some of the most sexist, homophobic and illiberal groups around.
    I think that the Salman Rushdie affair can be seen as a watershed, with hindsight.
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    RoyalBlue said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Those public sector finances figures are remarkable. The Tories should go for a balanced budget and then beat Corbyn to death with it.

    The public sector finance results are just a seasonal benefit due to the self employed paying their tax every six months.
    Err, no. Public borrowing is 40% lower than at the same point last year. It is a real improvement.

    But the PSBR has not really been a key macroeconomic indicator since World War 2 - unlike Inflation - the Balance of Payments - Unemployment - and Economic Growth. Moreover, throughout the last 10 years the National Debt to GDP ratio has remained well below the levels we saw from World War 1 until the mid- 1960s.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,966
    justin124 said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Those public sector finances figures are remarkable. The Tories should go for a balanced budget and then beat Corbyn to death with it.

    The public sector finance results are just a seasonal benefit due to the self employed paying their tax every six months.
    Err, no. Public borrowing is 40% lower than at the same point last year. It is a real improvement.

    But the PSBR has not really been a key macroeconomic indicator since World War 2 - unlike Inflation - the Balance of Payments - Unemployment - and Economic Growth. Moreover, throughout the last 10 years the National Debt to GDP ratio has remained well below the levels we saw from World War 1 until the mid- 1960s.
    Anything interesting happen in the intervening period? :p
  • Options
    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    edited August 2018
    England lose three wickets in an hour and a quarter, including Root with an unnecessary shot.

    Time to find a new Geoff Boycott who can stay at the crease for a decent period.

    Edit - Make that four wickets.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,992
    edited August 2018
    Yet Corbyn is still pushing the most left-wing economic agenda of any Labour leader since Foot in terms of increasing taxes and spending more and nationalisation and an anti corporation, anti austerity message goes to the heart of Die Linke, Melenchon and Syriza too.

    Yes most Labour voters are now socially liberal and supportive of LGBT rights but even Tories, especially younger Tories, support those too. Where there is a wider cultural divide comes over issues like immigration and Brexit but there it is the LDs, not Labour, leading the opposition to the Tories and UKIP, same with Macron in France opposing Le Pen and the Front National
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926
    No point playing Bairstow now, we won't save the match from here.
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    ydoethur said:

    stodge said:

    The current model of capitalism hasn't worked well in the last decade for me personally - I was much better off under Labour. As I was once told, I'd rather work an hour for 5 inflated pounds than 50 deflated pence.

    While I have sympathy, can I please point out there are others whose experience was the reverse? Thanks to Labour's gross mismanagement of the economy I lost my job in 2008 and they made it virtually impossible for me to get another, leading to three years of unemployment (and since I was refused benefits, those were three very, very difficult years). Only when the Coalition came in was I able to retrain and find employment. I appreciate some of the schemes I used have since been removed again, but Labour didn't even consider them.
    stodge said:

    It's more than "time for a change", more a recognition a long-serving Government remains anchored at one point culturally and in terms of the argument and the world has moved on around it. The language of austerity and 2010 sounds stale already and will be more so by 2022. No one, it seems, has a coherent and credible economic model for the 2020s and beyond.

    This is true and is a well-known phenomenon that also hit Labour. The problem is that even so such a feeling only resonates if the alternative is seen as credible - just ask Neil Kinnock. Labour have no plans that would survive contact with reality and no philosophical basis to formulate any other than a sort of rehash of populist clichés and discredited Maoism/Trotskyism. I don't say they cannot win power, I do say that they are not giving anyone a compelling reason to vote for them.
    Kinnock could well have defeated Thatcher in 1991/92 - and would certainly have won in 1997 albeit with a much more modest majority.
  • Options
    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,781
    TOPPING said:

    It is sad that Nick Palmer has become an apologist for a violent, thuggish cult that has taken over a party that used to stand for a strand of opinion that was, while sometimes misguided, honourable and decent. The Tory party, through their throwing away of their trump card of economic competence by supporting Brexit, are allowing these economic imbeciles to inch toward power .

    Nick Palmer has always come across to me as a reasonable person. Admittedly he is tribal and paints whatever the current position of the Labour Party is in as good a light as possible, but there are many on this site who do the same for their particular party. It is human nature to do so.
    Events can stretch a person's loyalty until it snaps and it's interesting to see when that happens. Usually the explanation given is that 'I have not left the Party, it has left me'.
    Parties do change, sometimes quite quickly, and many members probably spend a lot of their time only partly satisfied with their chosen party. The same goes for general voters, would Proportional Representation help?
    Plenty on both sides are pretty critical of their own side as posts from PB will illustrate.

    What I find difficult to take with Nick's post is that it is, as has been pointed out on here already, turning a blind eye to some of the less attractive, not to say repugnant tendencies of the modern left. All well and good if they turned up to conference, put a stand up in a side corridor and hoped for a few visitors. But these people are running the Party.

    Jeremy Corbyn is probably not an anti-semite. Possibly. But it is unarguable that he has presided over a Labour Party within which anti-semites feel emboldened. It is plausible deniability.

    We all laughed at his supposed faux pas when asked about the cemetery, but it was more acute than we realised. Jeremy Corbyn's position on anti-semitism is the very definition of being involved but not present.
    I think the fact that we are uncertain whether he is or he isn't almost certainly suggests he is. I would avoid the company of racists of any stripe. Corbyn has not just not avoided them, he has actively courted them. Had he also actively courted unpleasant people from the other side we could genuinely see him as someone trying to do something virtuous. This has not been the case. As my mother (RIP) would have said "you judge a person by the company they keep". Old fashioned perhaps, but very true of Corbyn, I do judge him and I see not someone who is kinder gentler, I see someone who is a scumbag pure and simple.
  • Options
    justin124 said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Those public sector finances figures are remarkable. The Tories should go for a balanced budget and then beat Corbyn to death with it.

    The public sector finance results are just a seasonal benefit due to the self employed paying their tax every six months.
    Err, no. Public borrowing is 40% lower than at the same point last year. It is a real improvement.

    But the PSBR has not really been a key macroeconomic indicator since World War 2 - unlike Inflation - the Balance of Payments - Unemployment - and Economic Growth. Moreover, throughout the last 10 years the National Debt to GDP ratio has remained well below the levels we saw from World War 1 until the mid- 1960s.
    Paying for two World Wars is a good reason for a high debt to GDP ratio.
    Live now, (someone else) pay later is not a good reason.
This discussion has been closed.