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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Labour Post-Corbyn: Is there hope for Labour’s moderates?

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited August 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Labour Post-Corbyn: Is there hope for Labour’s moderates?

For all the controversy over anti-Semitism and Jeremy Corbyn’s curious selection of international friends, there seems little doubt that Corbyn’s position as Labour leader is secure. Losing a vote of confidence amongst his own MPs by 172 to 40 didn’t dislodge him, and since then his position has been strengthened by the GE2017 campaign. Accusations of anti-Semitism and terrorist sympathies are water off a duck’s back.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    edited August 2018
    Thirst.

    Qtwyain.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    But I am sure that I heard one of them saying on the radio just the other day that if Corbyn wasn't nicer to them they would squeem and squeem until they were sick, or words to that effect.
  • I'm going nowhere
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    Are we on one of these phantom threads or something?
  • JohnRussellJohnRussell Posts: 297
    edited August 2018
    "Moderates"

    That word can be understood in the way "Democratic" is to an African dictatorship. The Blair government, which I suppose "Moderates" supported, made two highly controversial decisions that changed the country forever, and are the basis of most of the arguments people are having today, namely the Iraq War & unfettered A8 migration.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    First, malcontents need to decide what they’re for as opposed to what they’re against. Then the right response will present itself.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Interesting stuff but by the time of the next election we will be enjoying three years post-Brexit and if it is sunlit uplands, the Conservatives will win, and if Brexit means the Conservatives have trashed the economy in the manner they fear Jeremy Corbyn will, only worse, then Labour will win.

    Brexit is the defining issue, even for the Labour succession. At the moment, Labour's main policy is they are maintaining a studied ambiguity (six times) while being opposed to this Tory Brexit but as no-one knows what that will be, not even the Prime Minister, it is hard for Labour moderates (or anyone) to split over this.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517

    I'm going nowhere

    Fair enough.

    I'll ask the question that should be asked of loyalists of all stripes: what would your side have to do to lose your support? If you hold your nose and continue to support now, what would have to happen for that to change?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited August 2018

    I'm going nowhere

    Fair enough.

    I'll ask the question that should be asked of loyalists of all stripes: what would your side have to do to lose your support? If you hold your nose and continue to support now, what would have to happen for that to change?
    For some, the trademarked Poly-nose peg appears to enable them to overcome absolutely anything and still vote for their side.
  • I'm going nowhere

    Fair enough.

    I'll ask the question that should be asked of loyalists of all stripes: what would your side have to do to lose your support? If you hold your nose and continue to support now, what would have to happen for that to change?
    My misgivings about Jeremy Corbyn. Are a fraction of my misgivings of Theresa May. Boris Johnson. Jeremy Hunt. Politicians come and go - the movement remains. What we stand for remains. Why we are needed remains.

    Despite everything I think about Jeremy Corbyn I'd have him in Downing Street in a heartbeat over Theresa May. And last year I played a key role in a campaign which removed a Tory MP and installed a Labour MP. Its my party and has been as a member for 24 years and I remember lobbying school friends to lobby their parents in 1992 - I am a socialist and proud of it.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    The Corbyn Party is not Labour. Labour has been taken over by a very well-orchestrated group of extremists. It is hard to see how the realists can remain.

    There is no way back - without a huge purge that will make the days of Militant look like the good old days. And to initiate a purge, you have to regain control. With the rule changes that are likely to pass in the next few weeks, it is hard to see any path to achieving that control.

    Corbyn, McDonnell and Momentum have achieved something quite remarkable. They have destroyed The Labour Party whilst retaining the name.

    Those who belonged to the Real Labour tradition have no home under Corbyn or his anointed successors.

    We are living through a period of left-on-left toxicity. The only way is to break away. Set out a positive left-of-centre vision for the future of the country. It is not a vision that would work for me. But there is a need for it in our political discourse.

    There is no need for Corbynism.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    edited August 2018
    Thise Labour members and MPs who don’t support Corbyn need to come up with a programme about what they are for. It is not enough simply to be against Corbyn nor to describe yourself as “moderate” without being able to say what being “moderate” actually means.

    At the moment, about the only thing they can say is that they are not anti-semites, which may be necessary (and one would have hoped a given) but hardly sufficient - and in itself a measure of how debased the arguments within Labour have become.

    If they think he is not fit to be PM then they need to say why and not just simply point to the people he meets. That is to echo the mistakes made by the Tories during the last election. There is a case to be made (a strong one IMO) but very few of the “moderates” are making it. They lack both a vision of what Labour should be and the courage to fight for it. That is what they need. And until they develop both of these Corbyn is safe.

    Edited: I see @AlistairM has made my point more succinctly. Damnit!
  • Interesting piece, but I suspect the author's membership of the Conservatives means he's not party to the psychology of Labour members' motives in the event of (another) Corbyn-led Labour defeat at a General Election, at which he'll be older, tired and probably less popular.

    1994 marked the point at which Labour started getting serious about winning again after three successive defeats and so members began to trust the idea of a more centrist, reforming leader. I don't doubt that 2022 could mark another shift back towards the centre because it's not as if there is a competent hard-left successor waiting conveniently in the wings. McDonnell and Abbott won't be interested and have tried before. It wouldn't be inconceivable that the leader is once again someone from the soft-left.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517

    I'm going nowhere

    Fair enough.

    I'll ask the question that should be asked of loyalists of all stripes: what would your side have to do to lose your support? If you hold your nose and continue to support now, what would have to happen for that to change?
    My misgivings about Jeremy Corbyn. Are a fraction of my misgivings of Theresa May. Boris Johnson. Jeremy Hunt. Politicians come and go - the movement remains. What we stand for remains. Why we are needed remains.

    Despite everything I think about Jeremy Corbyn I'd have him in Downing Street in a heartbeat over Theresa May. And last year I played a key role in a campaign which removed a Tory MP and installed a Labour MP. Its my party and has been as a member for 24 years and I remember lobbying school friends to lobby their parents in 1992 - I am a socialist and proud of it.
    What happens if the 'movement' remains, but Labour's representation of it becomes (more) perverted? At what point would you stop supporting?

    It's an important question for all loyalists: I'd ask the same of some Conservatives if JRM became leader and started enacting some backwards policies.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    edited August 2018
    FPT
    Anorak said:

    Anorak said:

    ydoethur said:

    Anorak said:

    ydoethur said:

    Anorak said:

    ydoethur said:

    MikeL said:

    207/18 Deficit figures:

    Scotland - £13.4bn
    UK - £39.4bn

    Does anyone know - does the UK figure include the Scotland figure?

    One might assume it does - unless the UK figure is for the UK Govt and the Scottish Govt is separate?

    Also - if the answer is indeed "Yes" - how can Hammond control the UK deficit when he can't control what the Scottish Govt does?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-45260268

    Why does Scotland spend £3.1 billion on defence? Surely that's a reserved matter for the UK government?
    Hadrian's wall won't rebuild itself, you know.
    Hadrian's Wall isn't in Scotland.
    Frankly they can have that bit back. A sliver of Cumbria and a chunk of Northumbria. Whatevs. (I am Cumbrian)
    I think it would be all of Northumberland, wouldn't it? Runs to Newcastle.
    A few thousand sheep and a million acres of bracken.
    I live north of Hadrian’s Wall... :neutral:
    My most profound sympathies. Could you not just hitch a ride on a cart and escape to the lights of Newcastle?
    Hey there - I live within the Newcastle city limits, most of Newcastle is north of Hadrian’s Wall!

    Gah the southern ignorance!
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Yorkshire council chiefs threaten pull out of asylum seeker housing project

    http://www.publicsectorexecutive.com/News/yorkshire-council-chiefs-threaten-pull-out-of-asylum-seeker-housing-project

    So people do want to come to bradford ;-)

    Only fair other parts of the country share the burden.
  • I'm going nowhere

    Fair enough.

    I'll ask the question that should be asked of loyalists of all stripes: what would your side have to do to lose your support? If you hold your nose and continue to support now, what would have to happen for that to change?
    My misgivings about Jeremy Corbyn. Are a fraction of my misgivings of Theresa May. Boris Johnson. Jeremy Hunt. Politicians come and go - the movement remains. What we stand for remains. Why we are needed remains.

    Despite everything I think about Jeremy Corbyn I'd have him in Downing Street in a heartbeat over Theresa May. And last year I played a key role in a campaign which removed a Tory MP and installed a Labour MP. Its my party and has been as a member for 24 years and I remember lobbying school friends to lobby their parents in 1992 - I am a socialist and proud of it.
    What happens if the 'movement' remains, but Labour's representation of it becomes (more) perverted? At what point would you stop supporting?

    It's an important question for all loyalists: I'd ask the same of some Conservatives if JRM became leader and started enacting some backwards policies.
    I first joined the Conservative Party because of my disgust of IDS. I was so appalled by IDS winning the leadership that I decided I had to join to have a say next time. The one and only time I ever got a say in a leadership vote I was pleased to vote for Cameron and see him win it.

    Unless an alternative party arises it can be even more important to stay inside fighting for what you believe.
  • The Corbyn Party is not Labour. Labour has been taken over by a very well-orchestrated group of extremists. It is hard to see how the realists can remain.

    There is no way back - without a huge purge that will make the days of Militant look like the good old days. And to initiate a purge, you have to regain control. With the rule changes that are likely to pass in the next few weeks, it is hard to see any path to achieving that control.

    Corbyn, McDonnell and Momentum have achieved something quite remarkable. They have destroyed The Labour Party whilst retaining the name.

    Those who belonged to the Real Labour tradition have no home under Corbyn or his anointed successors.

    We are living through a period of left-on-left toxicity. The only way is to break away. Set out a positive left-of-centre vision for the future of the country. It is not a vision that would work for me. But there is a need for it in our political discourse.

    There is no need for Corbynism.

    "Labour has been taken over by a very well-orchestrated group..."

    Similar to the point I made earlier, I think the Corbynites would have used the words I quote to describe Blairites in the mid 90s. Who is to say what "Real "Labour is? I am not sure Corbyn doesn't have more claim to that title than the moderates, or at least as much right to claim it.

  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,745
    Evening all :)

    It took the Conservatives eight years, three leaders and three election defeats to travel from Major to Cameron.

    I think it's as much about policy direction as the leader inasmuch as the one can't happen without the other, Even if Corbyn were to depart, the policies, as far as we know them and enunciated as they have been by McDonnell, would continue.

    One of the many factors which led to Labour's huge win in 1997 was the acceptance of elements of the Thatcher-Major agenda. Voters felt they could trust Blair (and Smith before him) not to turn the clock to 1979 in terms of resurrecting union power.

    Where are Labour on adult social care for example? If they want all care to be free and not means tested, fine, I can support that but how will it be paid for? To me, this is now the litmus test of economic and social credibility.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758
    No. They're more comprehensively screwed and silenced than a porn star a lawyer has paid hush money to.

    But that is at least partly their own fault for having no idea of what they want, how to do it or why it should be done.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    This may be the most important news of the day:

    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1032229978119827457
  • surbysurby Posts: 1,227

    I'm going nowhere

    Fair enough.

    I'll ask the question that should be asked of loyalists of all stripes: what would your side have to do to lose your support? If you hold your nose and continue to support now, what would have to happen for that to change?
    My misgivings about Jeremy Corbyn. Are a fraction of my misgivings of Theresa May. Boris Johnson. Jeremy Hunt. Politicians come and go - the movement remains. What we stand for remains. Why we are needed remains.

    Despite everything I think about Jeremy Corbyn I'd have him in Downing Street in a heartbeat over Theresa May. And last year I played a key role in a campaign which removed a Tory MP and installed a Labour MP. Its my party and has been as a member for 24 years and I remember lobbying school friends to lobby their parents in 1992 - I am a socialist and proud of it.
    What happens if the 'movement' remains, but Labour's representation of it becomes (more) perverted? At what point would you stop supporting?

    It's an important question for all loyalists: I'd ask the same of some Conservatives if JRM became leader and started enacting some backwards policies.
    That's rubbish. The Labour party is larger than any one person. Corbyn is no larger in the Party today than Blair was in the late 90's.

    Labour will remain the party protecting the working classes for many years to come and will continue to the main progressive force in the UK.

    I shall remain loyal to Labour regardless of who leads it.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    edited August 2018
    On Trump; I don’t see that these recent revelations will lead to impeachment or resignation.

    And I think they’ll probably lead to him to be determined to win in 2020.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758

    This may be the most important news of the day:

    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1032229978119827457

    Sounds like a load of bull to me.

    I'll get my dressing gown.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    surby said:

    I'm going nowhere

    Fair enough.

    I'll ask the question that should be asked of loyalists of all stripes: what would your side have to do to lose your support? If you hold your nose and continue to support now, what would have to happen for that to change?
    My misgivings about Jeremy Corbyn. Are a fraction of my misgivings of Theresa May. Boris Johnson. Jeremy Hunt. Politicians come and go - the movement remains. What we stand for remains. Why we are needed remains.

    Despite everything I think about Jeremy Corbyn I'd have him in Downing Street in a heartbeat over Theresa May. And last year I played a key role in a campaign which removed a Tory MP and installed a Labour MP. Its my party and has been as a member for 24 years and I remember lobbying school friends to lobby their parents in 1992 - I am a socialist and proud of it.
    What happens if the 'movement' remains, but Labour's representation of it becomes (more) perverted? At what point would you stop supporting?

    It's an important question for all loyalists: I'd ask the same of some Conservatives if JRM became leader and started enacting some backwards policies.
    That's rubbish. The Labour party is larger than any one person. Corbyn is no larger in the Party today than Blair was in the late 90's.

    Labour will remain the party protecting the working classes for many years to come and will continue to the main progressive force in the UK.

    I shall remain loyal to Labour regardless of who leads it.
    So if, say, a leader started to implement the economic and social policies of Stalin, you would stick with the party?

    And this is important: we have an honourable track record of not allowing extremists into power (during our emancipated democratic era at least). Other countries have not - from Russia, Germany, Spain etc. It's naive to think that it couldn't happen here.

    Note: I'm not saying Corbyn is like that.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831

    The Corbyn Party is not Labour. Labour has been taken over by a very well-orchestrated group of extremists. It is hard to see how the realists can remain.

    There is no way back - without a huge purge that will make the days of Militant look like the good old days. And to initiate a purge, you have to regain control. With the rule changes that are likely to pass in the next few weeks, it is hard to see any path to achieving that control.

    Corbyn, McDonnell and Momentum have achieved something quite remarkable. They have destroyed The Labour Party whilst retaining the name.

    Those who belonged to the Real Labour tradition have no home under Corbyn or his anointed successors.

    We are living through a period of left-on-left toxicity. The only way is to break away. Set out a positive left-of-centre vision for the future of the country. It is not a vision that would work for me. But there is a need for it in our political discourse.

    There is no need for Corbynism.

    "Labour has been taken over by a very well-orchestrated group..."

    Similar to the point I made earlier, I think the Corbynites would have used the words I quote to describe Blairites in the mid 90s. Who is to say what "Real "Labour is? I am not sure Corbyn doesn't have more claim to that title than the moderates, or at least as much right to claim it.

    Labour - like any party - has always had those on the extremes as part of their coalition. People who held views far divorced from the leadership but who had no home in any other mainstream party.

    What Corbyn has done - and it is an achievement - is to take power from a fringe position.

    That does not mean that his views have actually become mainstream. That is very clear from the massive lack of support he has from within the PLP.

    Of those in my friendship circle who have previously been Labour voters, only one has become a full-fledged Corbynista/Momentum type. Even though she admitted that she wouldn't actually want to live in a country run by Corbyn.

    Corbyn has somehow created a sense that his view of Labour is Pure - even when it is a perversion of the values that Labour has campaigned for over decades.

    The 2017 manifesto was lots of spending plans - which people will always love so long as they don't think about how it will be funded. It is easy to win support when you promise jam to everyone and claim that only the rich will pay for it. That is cheap politics. It isn't realistic. It isn't a programme for government.

    Real is about having a vision and a programme that you can deliver. Corbyn has a perverted world view and a programme that is unaffordable. I don't see how anyone can see that as a Real.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772

    Yorkshire council chiefs threaten pull out of asylum seeker housing project

    http://www.publicsectorexecutive.com/News/yorkshire-council-chiefs-threaten-pull-out-of-asylum-seeker-housing-project

    So people do want to come to bradford ;-)

    Only fair other parts of the country share the burden.

    Bradford, more desirable than Damascus or Baghdad. You heard it here first.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    Sweden, YouGov appears out:

    Social Democrats 21.9% (+0.7%)
    Sweden Democrats 24.2% (-1.5%)

    Slight move to Sweden Democrats on Betfair. I wouldn't be so bullish. YouGov is the only pollster with them leading, and their lead has been cut in half from 4.5% to 2.3%.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758
    DavidL said:

    Yorkshire council chiefs threaten pull out of asylum seeker housing project

    http://www.publicsectorexecutive.com/News/yorkshire-council-chiefs-threaten-pull-out-of-asylum-seeker-housing-project

    So people do want to come to bradford ;-)

    Only fair other parts of the country share the burden.

    Bradford, more desirable than Damascus or Baghdad. You heard it here first.
    Peter Hain once excused massive job losses in Anglesey by saying Wales was a better place to live than Rwanda.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    DavidL said:

    Yorkshire council chiefs threaten pull out of asylum seeker housing project

    http://www.publicsectorexecutive.com/News/yorkshire-council-chiefs-threaten-pull-out-of-asylum-seeker-housing-project

    So people do want to come to bradford ;-)

    Only fair other parts of the country share the burden.

    Bradford, more desirable than Damascus or Baghdad. You heard it here first.
    lol
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    ydoethur said:

    This may be the most important news of the day:

    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1032229978119827457

    Sounds like a load of bull to me.

    I'll get my dressing gown.
    It has certainly cowed the bears - for now.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    It took the Conservatives eight years, three leaders and three election defeats to travel from Major to Cameron.

    I think it's as much about policy direction as the leader inasmuch as the one can't happen without the other, Even if Corbyn were to depart, the policies, as far as we know them and enunciated as they have been by McDonnell, would continue.

    One of the many factors which led to Labour's huge win in 1997 was the acceptance of elements of the Thatcher-Major agenda. Voters felt they could trust Blair (and Smith before him) not to turn the clock to 1979 in terms of resurrecting union power.

    Where are Labour on adult social care for example? If they want all care to be free and not means tested, fine, I can support that but how will it be paid for? To me, this is now the litmus test of economic and social credibility.

    Labour are already on their third leader who has not been elected PM when the chance arose and it is already 8 years since they were in power. I really cannot see them regaining it next time out either.
  • @JosiahJessop: yes, and what if the moon is made of cheese?

    Read our 2017 manifesto. The SDP was more left wing.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517

    @JosiahJessop: yes, and what if the moon is made of cheese?

    Read our 2017 manifesto. The SDP was more left wing.

    Thee 2017 manifesto is irrelevant to the question.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Sweden, YouGov appears out:

    Social Democrats 21.9% (+0.7%)
    Sweden Democrats 24.2% (-1.5%)

    Slight move to Sweden Democrats on Betfair. I wouldn't be so bullish. YouGov is the only pollster with them leading, and their lead has been cut in half from 4.5% to 2.3%.

    YouGov are very out of line with everyone else. That doesn’t mean they’re wrong, of course.
  • DavidL said:

    Yorkshire council chiefs threaten pull out of asylum seeker housing project

    http://www.publicsectorexecutive.com/News/yorkshire-council-chiefs-threaten-pull-out-of-asylum-seeker-housing-project

    So people do want to come to bradford ;-)

    Only fair other parts of the country share the burden.

    Bradford, more desirable than Damascus or Baghdad. You heard it here first.
    Is that your application for head of Bradford tourist board?
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387

    Sweden, YouGov appears out:

    Social Democrats 21.9% (+0.7%)
    Sweden Democrats 24.2% (-1.5%)

    Slight move to Sweden Democrats on Betfair. I wouldn't be so bullish. YouGov is the only pollster with them leading, and their lead has been cut in half from 4.5% to 2.3%.

    YouGov are very out of line with everyone else. That doesn’t mean they’re wrong, of course.
    I mean, first, the trend isn't great for the SwD. Secondly, it is out of line, but thirdly, they have now touched evens. What's the chance YouGov are right? Or that a swignback to SD is more likely than to S? Not 50%.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772

    DavidL said:

    Yorkshire council chiefs threaten pull out of asylum seeker housing project

    http://www.publicsectorexecutive.com/News/yorkshire-council-chiefs-threaten-pull-out-of-asylum-seeker-housing-project

    So people do want to come to bradford ;-)

    Only fair other parts of the country share the burden.

    Bradford, more desirable than Damascus or Baghdad. You heard it here first.
    Is that your application for head of Bradford tourist board?
    In full. I have nothing to add to the application.
  • @JosiahJessop: yes, and what if the moon is made of cheese?

    Read our 2017 manifesto. The SDP was more left wing.

    Thee 2017 manifesto is irrelevant to the question.
    Hardlt. You are speculating about moon cheese scenarios where Corbyn is Maduro. Whereas our actual policies are far from that.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Sweden, YouGov appears out:

    Social Democrats 21.9% (+0.7%)
    Sweden Democrats 24.2% (-1.5%)

    Slight move to Sweden Democrats on Betfair. I wouldn't be so bullish. YouGov is the only pollster with them leading, and their lead has been cut in half from 4.5% to 2.3%.

    YouGov are very out of line with everyone else. That doesn’t mean they’re wrong, of course.
    I mean, first, the trend isn't great for the SwD. Secondly, it is out of line, but thirdly, they have now touched evens. What's the chance YouGov are right? Or that a swignback to SD is more likely than to S? Not 50%.
    I want to agree with you. But I also want to lay the Sweden Democrats at evens or below. Decisions, decisions.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Yorkshire council chiefs threaten pull out of asylum seeker housing project

    http://www.publicsectorexecutive.com/News/yorkshire-council-chiefs-threaten-pull-out-of-asylum-seeker-housing-project

    So people do want to come to bradford ;-)

    Only fair other parts of the country share the burden.

    Bradford, more desirable than Damascus or Baghdad. You heard it here first.
    Is that your application for head of Bradford tourist board?
    In full. I have nothing to add to the application.
    When can you start?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517

    @JosiahJessop: yes, and what if the moon is made of cheese?

    Read our 2017 manifesto. The SDP was more left wing.

    Thee 2017 manifesto is irrelevant to the question.
    Hardlt. You are speculating about moon cheese scenarios where Corbyn is Maduro. Whereas our actual policies are far from that.
    It's a hypothetical question: how far would Labour have to descend before it lost your support?

    And as I said, the same applies for loyalists of other parties.

    But as it happens, your comparison of Maduro and Corbyn isn't too unrealistic, given Corbyn's enthusiastic support for Maduro's predecessor (who created the mess Venezuela is in), and his lack of condemnation of that regime.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,745
    DavidL said:

    Labour are already on their third leader who has not been elected PM when the chance arose and it is already 8 years since they were in power. I really cannot see them regaining it next time out either.

    I think it's either a very wise man or a fool who is dogmatic about the next GE at this time.

  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387

    Sweden, YouGov appears out:

    Social Democrats 21.9% (+0.7%)
    Sweden Democrats 24.2% (-1.5%)

    Slight move to Sweden Democrats on Betfair. I wouldn't be so bullish. YouGov is the only pollster with them leading, and their lead has been cut in half from 4.5% to 2.3%.

    YouGov are very out of line with everyone else. That doesn’t mean they’re wrong, of course.
    I mean, first, the trend isn't great for the SwD. Secondly, it is out of line, but thirdly, they have now touched evens. What's the chance YouGov are right? Or that a swignback to SD is more likely than to S? Not 50%.
    I want to agree with you. But I also want to lay the Sweden Democrats at evens or below. Decisions, decisions.
    I have them laid out at 2.1
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    Indeed. The hideous Rees is a clown, a charlatan and an ideologue.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Scott_P said:
    Conservative moderates already look under siege.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    stodge said:

    DavidL said:

    Labour are already on their third leader who has not been elected PM when the chance arose and it is already 8 years since they were in power. I really cannot see them regaining it next time out either.

    I think it's either a very wise man or a fool who is dogmatic about the next GE at this time.

    I am not being dogmatic about it. The Tories should be vulnerable. They have been in power a considerable time already. They have Brexit to deal with. They are already in a minority so a Major 1992 result is cheerio. But Labour are in a bad, bad place and I don't see them getting out of it with Corbyn in charge.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    If the Labour moderates do not eventually regain control of Labour a UK style En Marche may well be in the ofging
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    Conservative moderates already look under siege.

    Meanwhile number 10 is having to sell Chequers by invoking the UKIP brand.

    https://twitter.com/RobbieGibb/status/1032333088469045248
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    HYUFD said:

    If the Labour moderates do not eventually regain control of Labour a UK style En Marche may well be in the ofging

    I wouldn't bet on it happening even if it was supposed to launch next week
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,232
    Scott_P said:
    So we're all agreed then: The Washington Post's 'Thus far, she’s successfully steered British Conservatives away from their destructive fantasies about Brexit to a settlement that is compatible with life in the 21st century, in the European Union’s immediate vicinity' was a tad premature.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    Chuck him from what? He is a backbencher.

    He's also nuts but if that starts to be a bar on being a politician the cut in numbers in the Commons is going to have to go a whole lot further.
  • Scott_P said:
    Conservative moderates already look under siege.
    I dont feel under siege. JRM does not represent the majority of conservative mps and has no majority for his extreme Brexit in the HOC thankfully
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    DavidL said:

    Chuck him from what? He is a backbencher.

    He's also nuts but if that starts to be a bar on being a politician the cut in numbers in the Commons is going to have to go a whole lot further.
    Chhuck him from the party. Chuck him off a metaphorical cliff. I don't really care.

    He doesn't have the best interests of the party or the country at heart.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Merkel's party is averaging less than 30% for the first time:

    https://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281

    Scott_P said:
    Conservative moderates already look under siege.
    I dont feel under siege. JRM does not represent the majority of conservative mps and has no majority for his extreme Brexit in the HOC thankfully
    How can it be right that a Conservative MP is actively undermining the PM and her Cabinet in this way - why don't they take the whip away from him and arrange for his local party to de-select him?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    He doesn't have the best interests of the party or the country at heart.

    It's hard to say. It's possible he has been given licence to play the court jester to keep the Kippers inside the tent while not posing any serious threat.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758
    Didn't know they were dating :hushed:
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Yorkshire council chiefs threaten pull out of asylum seeker housing project

    http://www.publicsectorexecutive.com/News/yorkshire-council-chiefs-threaten-pull-out-of-asylum-seeker-housing-project

    So people do want to come to bradford ;-)

    Only fair other parts of the country share the burden.

    You seem to be endlessly moaning about your home town. If you dislike it so much why the hell do you choose to live there?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772

    DavidL said:

    Chuck him from what? He is a backbencher.

    He's also nuts but if that starts to be a bar on being a politician the cut in numbers in the Commons is going to have to go a whole lot further.
    Chhuck him from the party. Chuck him off a metaphorical cliff. I don't really care.

    He doesn't have the best interests of the party or the country at heart.
    I think he thinks he does. He's totally deluded but he seems genuine. Unlike, say, Boris.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758

    Scott_P said:
    Conservative moderates already look under siege.
    I dont feel under siege. JRM does not represent the majority of conservative mps and has no majority for his extreme Brexit in the HOC thankfully
    How can it be right that a Conservative MP is actively undermining the PM and her Cabinet in this way - why don't they take the whip away from him and arrange for his local party to de-select him?
    Because that would invalidate about 260 attack lines when your lot get going on deselection?
  • Scott_P said:
    Conservative moderates already look under siege.
    I dont feel under siege. JRM does not represent the majority of conservative mps and has no majority for his extreme Brexit in the HOC thankfully
    How can it be right that a Conservative MP is actively undermining the PM and her Cabinet in this way - why don't they take the whip away from him and arrange for his local party to de-select him?
    Come on Ben - what is with labour supporters that they always seen to demand deselection when their is a conflict of views
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Sweden, YouGov appears out:

    Social Democrats 21.9% (+0.7%)
    Sweden Democrats 24.2% (-1.5%)

    Slight move to Sweden Democrats on Betfair. I wouldn't be so bullish. YouGov is the only pollster with them leading, and their lead has been cut in half from 4.5% to 2.3%.

    It may have been a fluke, but I think YouGov were the most accurate pollster at the previous election.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    Scott_P said:
    Conservative moderates already look under siege.
    I dont feel under siege. JRM does not represent the majority of conservative mps and has no majority for his extreme Brexit in the HOC thankfully
    What’s needed is a forensic dissection of JRM’s “briefing note”. Not sure a great start to signing new treaties is abrogating your responsibilities under current ones.....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited August 2018

    Scott_P said:
    Conservative moderates already look under siege.
    I dont feel under siege. JRM does not represent the majority of conservative mps and has no majority for his extreme Brexit in the HOC thankfully
    How can it be right that a Conservative MP is actively undermining the PM and her Cabinet in this way - why don't they take the whip away from him and arrange for his local party to de-select him?
    Much like Chris Williamson is stealthily encouraging deselection of Labour moderates in his road show tour?

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-politics-45258341
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    ydoethur said:

    Didn't know they were dating :hushed:
    Yeah, his schooling means he likes being dominated. He had a German dominatrix once, which is why he over-compensates with his hatred of Europe ... ;)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    If the Labour moderates do not eventually regain control of Labour a UK style En Marche may well be in the ofging

    I wouldn't bet on it happening even if it was supposed to launch next week
    Not now no, after the next general election if Corbynites still in charge maybe
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Rees-Mogg should be reminded that during the referendum campaign, he said that a Norway-style Brexit was a possibility.

    https://twitter.com/stephen_rth/status/1030849353894776832
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092
    JR-M is the canary in the mine.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    Scott_P said:
    Conservative moderates already look under siege.
    I dont feel under siege. JRM does not represent the majority of conservative mps and has no majority for his extreme Brexit in the HOC thankfully
    How can it be right that a Conservative MP is actively undermining the PM and her Cabinet in this way - why don't they take the whip away from him and arrange for his local party to de-select him?
    Arrange for his local party to deselect him? That is not how the Conservative Party works. The deal is that we don’t get to set policy, but we do get to choose candidates (despite CCHQ’s best attempts to take that right away). I think that’s much more sensible than the alternative.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    AndyJS said:

    Sweden, YouGov appears out:

    Social Democrats 21.9% (+0.7%)
    Sweden Democrats 24.2% (-1.5%)

    Slight move to Sweden Democrats on Betfair. I wouldn't be so bullish. YouGov is the only pollster with them leading, and their lead has been cut in half from 4.5% to 2.3%.

    It may have been a fluke, but I think YouGov were the most accurate pollster at the previous election.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Swedish_general_election,_2014

    They did fine, but I can't see they were best exactly. All pollsters basically the same.
  • ydoethur said:

    Didn't know they were dating :hushed:
    Yeah, his schooling means he likes being dominated. He had a German dominatrix once, which is why he over-compensates with his hatred of Europe ... ;)
    Really - I did not know that !!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281

    Scott_P said:
    Conservative moderates already look under siege.
    I dont feel under siege. JRM does not represent the majority of conservative mps and has no majority for his extreme Brexit in the HOC thankfully
    How can it be right that a Conservative MP is actively undermining the PM and her Cabinet in this way - why don't they take the whip away from him and arrange for his local party to de-select him?
    Come on Ben - what is with labour supporters that they always seen to demand deselection when their is a conflict of views
    Blimey mate, if 'conflicting with my views' were the criteria I'd be clamouring for deselection of every Tory candidate! (Well maybe not Ken, Anna, Heidi and a handful of others.)

    My point is, JRM is making a gross attempt to completely undermine your party's elected leader and PM - she must be livid!
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092

    Scott_P said:
    Conservative moderates already look under siege.
    I dont feel under siege. JRM does not represent the majority of conservative mps and has no majority for his extreme Brexit in the HOC thankfully
    How can it be right that a Conservative MP is actively undermining the PM and her Cabinet in this way - why don't they take the whip away from him and arrange for his local party to de-select him?
    Come on Ben - what is with labour supporters that they always seen to demand deselection when their is a conflict of views
    Blimey mate, if 'conflicting with my views' were the criteria I'd be clamouring for deselection of every Tory candidate! (Well maybe not Ken, Anna, Heidi and a handful of others.)

    My point is, JRM is making a gross attempt to completely undermine your party's elected leader and PM - she must be livid!
    Who elected her as leader?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,003
    edited August 2018

    Scott_P said:
    Conservative moderates already look under siege.
    I dont feel under siege. JRM does not represent the majority of conservative mps and has no majority for his extreme Brexit in the HOC thankfully
    How can it be right that a Conservative MP is actively undermining the PM and her Cabinet in this way - why don't they take the whip away from him and arrange for his local party to de-select him?
    Come on Ben - what is with labour supporters that they always seen to demand deselection when their is a conflict of views
    Blimey mate, if 'conflicting with my views' were the criteria I'd be clamouring for deselection of every Tory candidate! (Well maybe not Ken, Anna, Heidi and a handful of others.)

    My point is, JRM is making a gross attempt to completely undermine your party's elected leader and PM - she must be livid!
    She and the majority of conservative mps but he is fighting a lost cause and in the end he will lose

    Also JRM and Steve Baker have tweeted support for Barry Gardiner ruling out a peoples vote as Chuka slutters in his cornflakes
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    RoyalBlue said:

    Scott_P said:
    Conservative moderates already look under siege.
    I dont feel under siege. JRM does not represent the majority of conservative mps and has no majority for his extreme Brexit in the HOC thankfully
    How can it be right that a Conservative MP is actively undermining the PM and her Cabinet in this way - why don't they take the whip away from him and arrange for his local party to de-select him?
    Arrange for his local party to deselect him? That is not how the Conservative Party works. The deal is that we don’t get to set policy, but we do get to choose candidates from the centrally Approved List of Parliamentary Candidates (despite CCHQ’s best attempts to take that right away). I think that’s much more sensible than the alternative.
    Didn't you miss a bit out?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281

    Scott_P said:
    Conservative moderates already look under siege.
    I dont feel under siege. JRM does not represent the majority of conservative mps and has no majority for his extreme Brexit in the HOC thankfully
    How can it be right that a Conservative MP is actively undermining the PM and her Cabinet in this way - why don't they take the whip away from him and arrange for his local party to de-select him?
    Come on Ben - what is with labour supporters that they always seen to demand deselection when their is a conflict of views
    Blimey mate, if 'conflicting with my views' were the criteria I'd be clamouring for deselection of every Tory candidate! (Well maybe not Ken, Anna, Heidi and a handful of others.)

    My point is, JRM is making a gross attempt to completely undermine your party's elected leader and PM - she must be livid!
    She and the majority of conservative mps but he is fighting a lost cause and in the end he will lose
    Well, fair enough - I hope you're right Big G!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    geoffw said:

    Scott_P said:
    Conservative moderates already look under siege.
    I dont feel under siege. JRM does not represent the majority of conservative mps and has no majority for his extreme Brexit in the HOC thankfully
    How can it be right that a Conservative MP is actively undermining the PM and her Cabinet in this way - why don't they take the whip away from him and arrange for his local party to de-select him?
    Come on Ben - what is with labour supporters that they always seen to demand deselection when their is a conflict of views
    Blimey mate, if 'conflicting with my views' were the criteria I'd be clamouring for deselection of every Tory candidate! (Well maybe not Ken, Anna, Heidi and a handful of others.)

    My point is, JRM is making a gross attempt to completely undermine your party's elected leader and PM - she must be livid!
    Who elected her as leader?

    Your MPs did.
  • Scott_P said:
    Conservative moderates already look under siege.
    I dont feel under siege. JRM does not represent the majority of conservative mps and has no majority for his extreme Brexit in the HOC thankfully
    How can it be right that a Conservative MP is actively undermining the PM and her Cabinet in this way - why don't they take the whip away from him and arrange for his local party to de-select him?
    Come on Ben - what is with labour supporters that they always seen to demand deselection when their is a conflict of views
    There is some evidence that left leaning people on social media are more liable to block or unfriend those with differing views to their own than those who consider themselves of the right, yet it is the left who like to proclaim tolerance. As baffling to me as the "moderates" who vote to bomb the Middle East while calling those to the left and right of them who disagree "extremists".
  • Scott_P said:
    Conservative moderates already look under siege.
    I dont feel under siege. JRM does not represent the majority of conservative mps and has no majority for his extreme Brexit in the HOC thankfully
    How can it be right that a Conservative MP is actively undermining the PM and her Cabinet in this way - why don't they take the whip away from him and arrange for his local party to de-select him?
    Come on Ben - what is with labour supporters that they always seen to demand deselection when their is a conflict of views
    Blimey mate, if 'conflicting with my views' were the criteria I'd be clamouring for deselection of every Tory candidate! (Well maybe not Ken, Anna, Heidi and a handful of others.)

    My point is, JRM is making a gross attempt to completely undermine your party's elected leader and PM - she must be livid!
    She and the majority of conservative mps but he is fighting a lost cause and in the end he will lose
    Well, fair enough - I hope you're right Big G!
    On this I am
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,979
    The struggle in the UK (and the USA) is between two major political philosophies - neo-liberalism and social democracy. Neo-liberalism has been the accepted approach since the Thatcher revolution in the eighties but more and more people here and in the US are angrily rejecting it in favour of a more left wing approach. A counter revolution has begun.

    Corbyn articulates it here. Sanders and Warren articulate it in the US. But if it wasn't them, someone else would be articulating it. The spokespeople are not as important as the idea. Corbyn is popular because of his political philosophy and in spite of some negatives.

    I don 't know whether Labour "moderates" reject Corbyn's approach because they disagree with his policies (which are popular) or because, like Blair, they think that the only way to power is to appeal to the centre with Tory-lite policies that do not overturn the current political approach. The same tension is present in the Democrats in the US. Just how big is the support for the counter revolution? Is it big enough to deliver power?

    The most likely outcome of the next election is a minority Labour government, held in check to some extent by the other minor parties and some more right wing Labour MPs. It would be operating in the SM/CU but outside the political structures of the EU. I think it would have an extended honeymoon period and could lead to a majority Labour government in 2027.

    Corbyn would step down by say 2024 to be succeeded by someone with a similar political philosophy. But Corbyn is not that important. It is the political counter revolutionary wave that is important. Labour moderates need to get on board or join the Tories.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Now where did I put that scanning electron microscope.....

    https://twitter.com/TheScotsman/status/1032365554512740354?s=20
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Anazina said:

    Yorkshire council chiefs threaten pull out of asylum seeker housing project

    http://www.publicsectorexecutive.com/News/yorkshire-council-chiefs-threaten-pull-out-of-asylum-seeker-housing-project

    So people do want to come to bradford ;-)

    Only fair other parts of the country share the burden.

    You seem to be endlessly moaning about your home town. If you dislike it so much why the hell do you choose to live there?
    I love my city and want to see the best for it inwhich I'm not seeing.

    So lets start on the subject matter I posted tonight,do you think it's right that bradford take 800/900 asylum seekers and shove them in already poorer parts of the city and other places in the country take zip - especially the whiter parts.

  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092

    geoffw said:

    Scott_P said:
    Conservative moderates already look under siege.
    I dont feel under siege. JRM does not represent the majority of conservative mps and has no majority for his extreme Brexit in the HOC thankfully
    How can it be right that a Conservative MP is actively undermining the PM and her Cabinet in this way - why don't they take the whip away from him and arrange for his local party to de-select him?
    Come on Ben - what is with labour supporters that they always seen to demand deselection when their is a conflict of views
    Blimey mate, if 'conflicting with my views' were the criteria I'd be clamouring for deselection of every Tory candidate! (Well maybe not Ken, Anna, Heidi and a handful of others.)

    My point is, JRM is making a gross attempt to completely undermine your party's elected leader and PM - she must be livid!
    Who elected her as leader?

    Your MPs did.
    No they didn't. She was the only candidate after Leadsom dropped out. MPs had no say.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517

    ydoethur said:

    Didn't know they were dating :hushed:
    Yeah, his schooling means he likes being dominated. He had a German dominatrix once, which is why he over-compensates with his hatred of Europe ... ;)
    Really - I did not know that !!
    It's a little-known fact.
  • Barnesian said:

    The struggle in the UK (and the USA) is between two major political philosophies - neo-liberalism and social democracy. Neo-liberalism has been the accepted approach since the Thatcher revolution in the eighties but more and more people here and in the US are angrily rejecting it in favour of a more left wing approach. A counter revolution has begun.

    Corbyn articulates it here. Sanders and Warren articulate it in the US. But if it wasn't them, someone else would be articulating it. The spokespeople are not as important as the idea. Corbyn is popular because of his political philosophy and in spite of some negatives.

    I don 't know whether Labour "moderates" reject Corbyn's approach because they disagree with his policies (which are popular) or because, like Blair, they think that the only way to power is to appeal to the centre with Tory-lite policies that do not overturn the current political approach. The same tension is present in the Democrats in the US. Just how big is the support for the counter revolution? Is it big enough to deliver power?

    The most likely outcome of the next election is a minority Labour government, held in check to some extent by the other minor parties and some more right wing Labour MPs. It would be operating in the SM/CU but outside the political structures of the EU. I think it would have an extended honeymoon period and could lead to a majority Labour government in 2027.

    Corbyn would step down by say 2024 to be succeeded by someone with a similar political philosophy. But Corbyn is not that important. It is the political counter revolutionary wave that is important. Labour moderates need to get on board or join the Tories.

    'Corbyn is not that important'

    Really the man who is anti the West, NATO, and our allies but pro Hamas, Iran and Russia and wants to destroy capitalism and he is not important

    That takes the biscuit
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Scott_P said:
    Conservative moderates already look under siege.
    I dont feel under siege. JRM does not represent the majority of conservative mps and has no majority for his extreme Brexit in the HOC thankfully
    How can it be right that a Conservative MP is actively undermining the PM and her Cabinet in this way - why don't they take the whip away from him and arrange for his local party to de-select him?
    Come on Ben - what is with labour supporters that they always seen to demand deselection when their is a conflict of views
    Blimey mate, if 'conflicting with my views' were the criteria I'd be clamouring for deselection of every Tory candidate! (Well maybe not Ken, Anna, Heidi and a handful of others.)

    My point is, JRM is making a gross attempt to completely undermine your party's elected leader and PM - she must be livid!
    Who elected her as leader?

    Your MPs did.
    No they didn't. She was the only candidate after Leadsom dropped out. MPs had no say.
    She won an absolute majority of MPs in every round of voting. Don't talk nonsense.
  • ydoethur said:

    Didn't know they were dating :hushed:
    Yeah, his schooling means he likes being dominated. He had a German dominatrix once, which is why he over-compensates with his hatred of Europe ... ;)
    Really - I did not know that !!
    It's a little-known fact.
    Must be !!!!!
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765
    Barnesian said:

    The struggle in the UK (and the USA) is between two major political philosophies - neo-liberalism and social democracy. Neo-liberalism has been the accepted approach since the Thatcher revolution in the eighties but more and more people here and in the US are angrily rejecting it in favour of a more left wing approach. A counter revolution has begun.

    Corbyn articulates it here. Sanders and Warren articulate it in the US. But if it wasn't them, someone else would be articulating it. The spokespeople are not as important as the idea. Corbyn is popular because of his political philosophy and in spite of some negatives.

    I don 't know whether Labour "moderates" reject Corbyn's approach because they disagree with his policies (which are popular) or because, like Blair, they think that the only way to power is to appeal to the centre with Tory-lite policies that do not overturn the current political approach. The same tension is present in the Democrats in the US. Just how big is the support for the counter revolution? Is it big enough to deliver power?

    The most likely outcome of the next election is a minority Labour government, held in check to some extent by the other minor parties and some more right wing Labour MPs. It would be operating in the SM/CU but outside the political structures of the EU. I think it would have an extended honeymoon period and could lead to a majority Labour government in 2027.

    Corbyn would step down by say 2024 to be succeeded by someone with a similar political philosophy. But Corbyn is not that important. It is the political counter revolutionary wave that is important. Labour moderates need to get on board or join the Tories.

    Corbyn is no social democrat.

    Pretty much every government since WWII has combined social democracy and economic liberalism. Corbyn proposes to break from that.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Scott_P said:
    Conservative moderates already look under siege.
    I dont feel under siege. JRM does not represent the majority of conservative mps and has no majority for his extreme Brexit in the HOC thankfully
    How can it be right that a Conservative MP is actively undermining the PM and her Cabinet in this way - why don't they take the whip away from him and arrange for his local party to de-select him?
    Come on Ben - what is with labour supporters that they always seen to demand deselection when their is a conflict of views
    Blimey mate, if 'conflicting with my views' were the criteria I'd be clamouring for deselection of every Tory candidate! (Well maybe not Ken, Anna, Heidi and a handful of others.)

    My point is, JRM is making a gross attempt to completely undermine your party's elected leader and PM - she must be livid!
    Who elected her as leader?

    Your MPs did.
    No they didn't. She was the only candidate after Leadsom dropped out. MPs had no say.
    She won an absolute majority of MPs in every round of voting. Don't talk nonsense.
    You're right, that is nonsense. False memory syndrome or something.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    RoyalBlue said:

    Scott_P said:
    Conservative moderates already look under siege.
    I dont feel under siege. JRM does not represent the majority of conservative mps and has no majority for his extreme Brexit in the HOC thankfully
    How can it be right that a Conservative MP is actively undermining the PM and her Cabinet in this way - why don't they take the whip away from him and arrange for his local party to de-select him?
    Arrange for his local party to deselect him? That is not how the Conservative Party works. The deal is that we don’t get to set policy, but we do get to choose candidates from the centrally Approved List of Parliamentary Candidates (despite CCHQ’s best attempts to take that right away). I think that’s much more sensible than the alternative.
    Didn't you miss a bit out?
    That covers people from Soubry to Rees-Mogg. Most of the time we have a reasonable choice.

    Labour have Chris Williamson and Dawn Butler.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Scott_P said:
    Conservative moderates already look under siege.
    I dont feel under siege. JRM does not represent the majority of conservative mps and has no majority for his extreme Brexit in the HOC thankfully
    How can it be right that a Conservative MP is actively undermining the PM and her Cabinet in this way - why don't they take the whip away from him and arrange for his local party to de-select him?
    Come on Ben - what is with labour supporters that they always seen to demand deselection when their is a conflict of views
    Blimey mate, if 'conflicting with my views' were the criteria I'd be clamouring for deselection of every Tory candidate! (Well maybe not Ken, Anna, Heidi and a handful of others.)

    My point is, JRM is making a gross attempt to completely undermine your party's elected leader and PM - she must be livid!
    Who elected her as leader?

    Your MPs did.
    No they didn't. She was the only candidate after Leadsom dropped out. MPs had no say.
    What rubbish! Over 50% of tory MPs voted for May in the first ballot and over 60% in the 2nd ballot. Leadsome withdrew because she recognised she commanded too little support from MPs.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Scott_P said:
    Conservative moderates already look under siege.
    I dont feel under siege. JRM does not represent the majority of conservative mps and has no majority for his extreme Brexit in the HOC thankfully
    How can it be right that a Conservative MP is actively undermining the PM and her Cabinet in this way - why don't they take the whip away from him and arrange for his local party to de-select him?
    Come on Ben - what is with labour supporters that they always seen to demand deselection when their is a conflict of views
    Blimey mate, if 'conflicting with my views' were the criteria I'd be clamouring for deselection of every Tory candidate! (Well maybe not Ken, Anna, Heidi and a handful of others.)

    My point is, JRM is making a gross attempt to completely undermine your party's elected leader and PM - she must be livid!
    Who elected her as leader?

    Your MPs did.
    No they didn't. She was the only candidate after Leadsom dropped out. MPs had no say.
    What rubbish! Over 50% of tory MPs voted for May in the first ballot and over 60% in the 2nd ballot. Leadsome withdrew because she recognised she commanded too little support from MPs.
    ok ok ..
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765

    I'm going nowhere

    Fair enough.

    I'll ask the question that should be asked of loyalists of all stripes: what would your side have to do to lose your support? If you hold your nose and continue to support now, what would have to happen for that to change?
    My misgivings about Jeremy Corbyn. Are a fraction of my misgivings of Theresa May. Boris Johnson. Jeremy Hunt. Politicians come and go - the movement remains. What we stand for remains. Why we are needed remains.

    Despite everything I think about Jeremy Corbyn I'd have him in Downing Street in a heartbeat over Theresa May. And last year I played a key role in a campaign which removed a Tory MP and installed a Labour MP. Its my party and has been as a member for 24 years and I remember lobbying school friends to lobby their parents in 1992 - I am a socialist and proud of it.
    It's very hard to take your criticisms of Jeremy Corbyn at all seriously, in the light of that post.
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