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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Dangers of Polite Demagogues
The cartoonist known as Pont is perhaps best remembered (if at all) for his Punch series on the English character. The cartoons depict a certain type of pre-war English upper middle class life (dressing for dinner, hunting, country weekends, clubland, patient, stoic enjoyment of outdoor pursuits, bewilderment at Abroad and the need to Keep up Standards, often to the point of absurdity) laced with endearing eccentricity. It is a life which has largely disappeared, save for those (often foreigners) wealthy enough to indulge in some of its nicer aspects. Yet some of his gently humorous observations still resonate: Absence of Decision is the ideal gift for Mrs May when she finally retires. A Tendency to Be Hearty quietly pokes fun at the Farages of this world. The Importance of Not Being Alien speaks for itself.
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Ooooh! You are naughty! But I like you!
https://twitter.com/jennirsl/status/1036374010446196736
They were bricking it.
Some of that scepticism has been felt about politicians who were charismatic, fluent, outsiders in some respect and, possibly, unreliable or dangerous. Non-U, to coin a term. "
And yet you don't join the dots - and explain that the EU is an Idea for Foreigners. Utopian politics, that was ultimately found out as being Non-U....
Where are any politicians today offering a positive vision of the future and proposing serious solutions to today’s problems?
Its a nice thread header though.
I see more differences than similarities between the three.
Corbyn has policies, Mogg has a vision, and Boris has the ambition to flexibly invent either.
That was back when the Tories had both brains and backbones rather than the lily livered sycophants they are today
Brexit is an example of English anti-intellectualism.
Good article, Miss Cyclefree.
For those who enjoyed the excellent race yesterday, here's my post-race ramble: http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2018/09/italy-post-race-analysis-2018.html
On Europe for one, despite all the posturing, integration and our participation moved forward. Major did more with his opt-outs.
For Corbyn, it's telling that one Corbynite defence of him is that his mother was at Cable Street. As if anti-Semitism would have to be genetic, and his brother Piers, a raving one, doesn't exist. It's cited as an example of how deep the roots of being a genteel, non-conformist peacenik go, along with his allotment or claims he's a 'man of peace' and thus is forgiven awful behaviour that if it were carried out by an ordinary suited politician or lower class one, would probably be seen for what it was - a deeply warped conspiracist view of the world that if it doesn't push the bearer into racism, certainly leads them to support racists and belligerent - all in the name of peace of course. But just as it's accepted that posh ladies from Kensington and Chelsea can sell any old woo as 'alternative' medicine (something Corbyn has some form with) and not be called frauds, his supporters accept each association with some of the worst Jew-haters, or each slip into anti-Semitic speech himself as an acceptable if maybe unfortunate side-effect of middle-class eccentricity rather than the unacceptable indicator of a twisted worldview it is, because nice middle-class people who grow marrows and talk about the importance of charity for all can't ever have darker aspects to their character.
On reflection, what we need is a latter-day Inspector Goole.
How many times does socialism have to be tried and failed before we all accept that it just does not work? You really would have thought that the collapse of the Soviet bloc and the fall of the Berlin wall in 1990 would have been enough. The evil brutality, poverty and despair that such state dominated societies always produce was surely exhibited for all time and anyone willing to think.
He may have too many ideas because of the public distrust for them that Cyclefree alludes to.
I.agree with many of his ideas without in any way being far left, while disagreeing with others. I don't think he is fit to be PM, but that's more to do with his lack of self discipline than his.ideas. his economic policies are risky, but we're in for a penny in for a pound on that.score, thanks to Brexit.
Thatcher didn't take us back perfectly to what was before and neither would Corbyn try or be able to in terms of economic policy take us back to what was before.
Of course it explains why our politicians are total amateurs
Of course, there are obvious “audiences” that neither Corbyn nor Rees-Mogg respect much, Jewish and europhile ones, for instance, but I think it’s very easy to miss just how much voters hate being lectured or talked down to, as the likes of Soubry, Clarke and Lammy are wont to do.
Edit: Or to take it back to JRM he could have Europeans who like him and who he likes and agrees with.
In her first few years in office, Europe didn’t really feature as a political issue on the right of British politics, as it was seen as an extension of her free market reforms. An economic tool, not a political cage.
That changed post 1987-1988 when Thatcher became increasingly outspoken about it. Without such pressure Major might have taken a much more relaxed approach to Maastricht.
Some of these ideas were far from new but she succeeded in building them into the fabric of our society and by example other societies around the world. Only sad old reprobates like Corbyn continued to espouse the same old nonsense. It just depresses me that people are still willing to listen to it.
That's part of the reason for his success though. As various parts of the Labour left can project their views on to him, without the splits and outlining of negative consequences that hamstrung the party's radicals in the past. Whether that survives contact with reality is open to conjecture.
Or Johnson with his messy hair, ill-fitting clothes, classical aphorisms, rather-too-pleased-with-itself wit and carefully crafted bumbling persona. That either of them should be viewed as serious contenders for the highest office suggests a failure to listen to what they say, to see that they mostly talk nonsense, sometimes dangerous, ill thought-out and harmful nonsense....
And Good Morning ladies and gentleman. What happened to all the doom and gloom about the cricket?
It’s a failure of the media class (or perhaps the lack of alternatives) that they hype him up continuously
This also means I need to update my records. *sighs*
Well then surely the counter argument would be that Corbyn will succeed with his ideas as well.
And whilst I take no joy in your misery it is a joy for me and many others that politics offers a real choice again, Thatcher may be the idol of many on the right but her political legacy that drew both parties towards the same narrow space is a nightmare for many on the left. Her political time has long gone and it is long past time British politics moved out of her shadow.
However, Mogg is also able to recognise the need for compromise - for example, when he said England “(had) to be generous” to maintain the Union, and not just pursue simply parity of powers in all areas give the population/economic imbalance - but it’s when it’s in pursuit of a broader principle, in this case maintaining the Union.
I could therefore see Mogg voting and arguing for a Brexit compromise that substantively delivered the mandate of the vote, even if not perfect, and carrying most of the ERG with him.
Boris thinks Chequers is worse than staying in the EU so his logic leads to us staying in the EU then !!!!!!
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/sep/03/fire-engulfs-brazil-national-museum-rio
Brexit is more complicated. The EU in its current form has many of the faults that Maggie railed against. It is overly bureaucratic, it deadens markets with excess regulation and at least externally has not been a bastion for free trade. On the other hand it has taken slow steps towards creating a free internal market, at least for goods, services never having quite got there. It has plus and minus points. Whether our withdrawal from it results in us losing the good and keeping the bad or the other way around remains to be seen.
On a personal 1:1 level I suspect they’d be polite enough.
How many do you see marching onto the airwaves to defend rail, gas, or electricity privatisation, or the liberalisation measures taken to the financial sector in the 1980s?
If I am reading this correctly politicians will basically never have to face Andrew Neil anymore, as he will only be on once a week?
[Edit: I have just seen Foxy's comment. We are obviously on the same page this morning]
Edit: Re reading your post Casino I think I horribly misread it, and for some reason though you were MJW (which contributed to my misreading)
We are in an Aston Martin, obviously.
Fitted with an ejector seat.
Blair accepted the lessons of Thatcher but showed that this leaves a lot for the State to do. True equality of opportunity requires State intervention for example. The challenge is to engage the aspirations of the disadvantaged so that they can do better. The solution to 1 private school in Dundee having more science highers than 9 State schools is not to impose taxes on or close the private school, it is to improve the State schools and demand more from the staff that are in them whilst providing the resources that they need.
How is the State to address our housing crisis? What are the social consequences of student debt and what can we do about it? How do we fund social care in an increasingly elderly society and what does this mean for taxation?
It seems to me that there are a series of issues which are very important to our society and to which the Tory party is showing few answers. A Labour party willing to do some hard thinking about such issues instead of acting in an absurd and self indulgent way would be an asset.
Whoops. 3rd
If he hadn’t course, he probably wouldn’t have been a Merchant Navy steward and met Anthony Eden!
Might well have joined the Merchant, of course, but would probably have been on the bridge!
However it will have to be legal in the strict sense
Both are important to me. I'm allergic to hysterical politicians - I would vote for May over Scargill in a heartbeat. And although I do favour left-wing policies, I want them implemented without whipping up feeling against opponents.
There was an interesting R4 interview on More or Less a few days ago about research done on what makes many people overestimate things they dislike - perceived excessive immigration, number of Muslims, number of teenage pregnancies, etc. (all of them overestimated by at least 2:1) The author found it was associated with physical spontaneity - frequent changes in tone, touching, gesticulating - and that it was more common in countries with what we mostly think of as agreeable spontaneity (Italy) rather than buttoned-up restraint (Sweden). Perhaps spontaneity is so good that it outweighs the political snags, but it was an interesting finding all the same, and perhaps inherently plausible.
Remain with its sensible and unsensational ideas didn’t stand a chance.
Another confident solution to a problem that failed to account for the rules of the game.
Like Brexit...
The real test will come when we play away from home.
Are you telling me you personally actually believed it ?
*Which isn't literally to say leader of his political support faction.
There are people who see our current system as failing, you mention several problems that our current system has failed to deal with.