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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Surely Labour MPs won’t go quietly with deselections set to be

SystemSystem Posts: 6,389
edited September 7 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Surely Labour MPs won’t go quietly with deselections set to become a reality

Joan Ryan is chair of Labour Friends of Israel. Tonight local party radicals passed a vote of no confidence in her, 1st stage of deselection. Tough to think of a worse look for a political party that aspires to govern. https://t.co/7Pqyg6TPvL

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 18,043
    Legacies

    Blair - Iraq
    Brown - Financial Crisis
    Cameron - Brexit

    not exactly an advert fot the third way
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 47,183
    edited September 7
    Some will remain as independents like Field but defections to the LDs or a new centrist party would really make a difference
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 6,107
    Labour have been destroyed as a reasonable party.

    You stay in that filth then you are tainted by it.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 5,111
    It comes to something when David Icke is the only one left who is saying sensible things:

  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 4,339
    More details about the filming and how it was carried out by a Party Member - working for PressTV

  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 6,391

    Legacies

    Blair - Iraq
    Brown - Financial Crisis
    Cameron - Brexit

    not exactly an advert fot the third way

    Who do you think represents the First and Second Way?
    Also, Blair chose Iraq, Cameron enabled Brexit but was Brown responsible all by himself for the world's financial crisis?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 19,702
    Very generous of the Iranian foreign aid programme to sponsor this fine pilot project showing how Corbyn's vision of an inclusive, diverse, decentralised state broadcaster would work.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 31,291
    Transcript of the HoC Brexit Ctte meeting with Barnier:

    http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/exiting-the-european-union-committee/the-progress-of-the-uks-negotiations-on-eu-withdrawal/oral/88890.pdf

    Both Brexiteers & Remainers trying and failing to get Barnier to say "Chequers is Dead".....
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 22,515

    Legacies

    Blair - Iraq
    Brown - Financial Crisis
    Cameron - Brexit

    not exactly an advert fot the third way

    I know you're just being provocative, but what rot! Blair's misjudgement on Iraq had nothing to do with the third way, and while Cameron did try to learn some political lessons from Blair, he made the mistake of triangulating not with the centre but away from the centre.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 46,869
    Foxy said:

    It comes to something when David Icke is the only one left who is saying sensible things:

    From Vince's coronation to a completely open selection ?!
    Can't they just stop at a halfway point and allow the membership to vote ?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 18,043

    Legacies

    Blair - Iraq
    Brown - Financial Crisis
    Cameron - Brexit

    not exactly an advert fot the third way

    Who do you think represents the First and Second Way?
    Also, Blair chose Iraq, Cameron enabled Brexit but was Brown responsible all by himself for the world's financial crisis?
    old style left right.

    the flaw in Blairism\ Cameronism was the toxic meme " they have nowhere else to go" applied to their own supporters. That works for a while, then when youve pissed on your own supporters long enough they do find somewhere where they dont feel so ignored. Or wet.

    Corbyn and Brexit stem directly from this imo. the formula was pushed way past the point it worked.

    The statement "elections are won in the centre" is true, but only if you repect the second half of the formula " as long as you can keep your left\right wing on board"
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 1,988
    I don’t see Joan Ryan as worth saving. I’d vote to de-select her.

    (I have more time for Gavin Shuker).

    I think deselections are a consequence of the membership and PLP being so out-of-kilter. They are therefore necessary.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 19,990
    Pulpstar said:

    Foxy said:

    It comes to something when David Icke is the only one left who is saying sensible things:

    From Vince's coronation to a completely open selection ?!
    Can't they just stop at a halfway point and allow the membership to vote ?
    What, so only the full paying members get to vote? You’ll be suggesting the leader should be an MP next!
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 18,043

    Legacies

    Blair - Iraq
    Brown - Financial Crisis
    Cameron - Brexit

    not exactly an advert fot the third way

    I know you're just being provocative, but what rot! Blair's misjudgement on Iraq had nothing to do with the third way, and while Cameron did try to learn some political lessons from Blair, he made the mistake of triangulating not with the centre but away from the centre.
    well ask someone what they think these leaders legacy is and Id suggest thats what they will think.

    Theyve all done lots of other things both good and bad but thats what theyll be remembered for by the GBP
  • felixfelix Posts: 8,046
    Floater said:

    Labour have been destroyed as a reasonable party.

    You stay in that filth then you are tainted by it.

    Spot on - I'm not sure we often agree [ although I may be muddling you with someone else] but this is completely correct. The majority of Labour MPs are tacitly supporting a leader they loathe and a party whose membership is now dominated in many areas by extremists from the far left whose views are basically the same as the current leadership. The UK could literally end up sleepwalking into a nightmare from which the wakening would be Venezuela! It really is time for them to act. If the Tories were led by Boris or worse my views on them would be similar.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 22,515

    Legacies

    Blair - Iraq
    Brown - Financial Crisis
    Cameron - Brexit

    not exactly an advert fot the third way

    I know you're just being provocative, but what rot! Blair's misjudgement on Iraq had nothing to do with the third way, and while Cameron did try to learn some political lessons from Blair, he made the mistake of triangulating not with the centre but away from the centre.
    well ask someone what they think these leaders legacy is and Id suggest thats what they will think.

    Theyve all done lots of other things both good and bad but thats what theyll be remembered for by the GBP
    Yes, I agree with that, but framing it as the legacy of the third way is what I'm objecting to.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 2,570
    Scott_P said:
    Superb. O'Brien is one of the finest broadcasters around.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 19,990
    15 minute show, 20 mins max. A technical and analytical conversation needs concentration, it’s not the sort of thing you can listen to in the background. Maybe record two or three shows at the same time though, if that easier for guest co-ordination etc, intros and outros could be done in post.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 18,043

    Legacies

    Blair - Iraq
    Brown - Financial Crisis
    Cameron - Brexit

    not exactly an advert fot the third way

    I know you're just being provocative, but what rot! Blair's misjudgement on Iraq had nothing to do with the third way, and while Cameron did try to learn some political lessons from Blair, he made the mistake of triangulating not with the centre but away from the centre.
    well ask someone what they think these leaders legacy is and Id suggest thats what they will think.

    Theyve all done lots of other things both good and bad but thats what theyll be remembered for by the GBP
    Yes, I agree with that, but framing it as the legacy of the third way is what I'm objecting to.
    the legacy of the third way is increasingly the rise of extremism

    trump, chemnitz, lega, corbyn

    how we get out of it fk knows
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 2,570

    I don’t see Joan Ryan as worth saving. I’d vote to de-select her.

    (I have more time for Gavin Shuker).

    I think deselections are a consequence of the membership and PLP being so out-of-kilter. They are therefore necessary.

    Typical Corbynite, favours the views of a few hundred thousand Labour members over the views of several million Labour voters. Posts like this make me think that there's no hope for the party.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 19,990
    edited September 7

    Legacies

    Blair - Iraq
    Brown - Financial Crisis
    Cameron - Brexit

    not exactly an advert fot the third way

    I know you're just being provocative, but what rot! Blair's misjudgement on Iraq had nothing to do with the third way, and while Cameron did try to learn some political lessons from Blair, he made the mistake of triangulating not with the centre but away from the centre.
    well ask someone what they think these leaders legacy is and Id suggest thats what they will think.

    Theyve all done lots of other things both good and bad but thats what theyll be remembered for by the GBP
    Yes, I agree with that, but framing it as the legacy of the third way is what I'm objecting to.
    the legacy of the third way is increasingly the rise of extremism

    trump, chemnitz, lega, corbyn

    how we get out of it fk knows
    What has happened is a cosy consensus has been allowed to develop between mainstream politicians of all colours on a number of issues, so people who felt strongly on the other side had no-one to vote for.

    The only way out is for mainstream politicians to propose bold policies on immigration, housing, social care etc - or people will increasingly turn to extremists who will talk about these issues.

    Mrs May tried (badly) to talk about social care last year, and we saw how that went - but it’s the right idea, and we need to get sensible discussions going on these issues.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 18,043
    Sandpit said:

    Legacies

    Blair - Iraq
    Brown - Financial Crisis
    Cameron - Brexit

    not exactly an advert fot the third way

    I know you're just being provocative, but what rot! Blair's misjudgement on Iraq had nothing to do with the third way, and while Cameron did try to learn some political lessons from Blair, he made the mistake of triangulating not with the centre but away from the centre.
    well ask someone what they think these leaders legacy is and Id suggest thats what they will think.

    Theyve all done lots of other things both good and bad but thats what theyll be remembered for by the GBP
    Yes, I agree with that, but framing it as the legacy of the third way is what I'm objecting to.
    the legacy of the third way is increasingly the rise of extremism

    trump, chemnitz, lega, corbyn

    how we get out of it fk knows
    What has happened is a cosy consensus between mainstream politicians of all colours on a number of issues, so people who felt strongly on the other side had no-one to vote for.

    The only way out is for mainstream politicians to propose bold policies on immigration, housing, social care etc - or people will increasingly turn to extremists who will talk about these issues.
    yes

    unfortunately in the UK only Corbyn comes near to that.
  • Anazina said:

    I don’t see Joan Ryan as worth saving. I’d vote to de-select her.

    (I have more time for Gavin Shuker).

    I think deselections are a consequence of the membership and PLP being so out-of-kilter. They are therefore necessary.

    Typical Corbynite, favours the views of a few hundred thousand Labour members over the views of several million Labour voters. Posts like this make me think that there's no hope for the party.
    I think the best hope must be for all the MPs who voted for no confidence in Corbyn to set up their own grouping. They rename the party The Parliamentary Labour Party and ask moderate Labour members to join. The rump Labour party can rebrand as Momentum.

    The same thing may be necessary for the Tory party. I have nothing in common with Brexiters, they are economy crashers in the same way Corbyn is ,and large numbers (like Corbyn) are racists. The only real difference is their eyes swivel in the opposite direction.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 2,570
    Sandpit said:

    15 minute show, 20 mins max. A technical and analytical conversation needs concentration, it’s not the sort of thing you can listen to in the background. Maybe record two or three shows at the same time though, if that easier for guest co-ordination etc, intros and outros could be done in post.
    Agreed. Most podcasts are 20 minutes max, many are much shorter. The only time I get to listen to a full PB podcast is when I have a gigantic amount of washing up – usually post a huge weekend roast. Happens quite rarely.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 20,111
    edited September 7
    HYUFD said:

    Some will remain as independents like Field but defections to the LDs or a new centrist party would really make a difference

    They haven't got the balls to do anything. They are being led, one by one, to the vets to be put down.

    By the next election, the Parliamentary Labour Party will become as unrecognisable as the current member-driven party has become to that which we have known for decades. "Traditional", voted-for-them-all-my-life Labour is dying by the day.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 19,990

    Sandpit said:

    Legacies

    Blair - Iraq
    Brown - Financial Crisis
    Cameron - Brexit

    not exactly an advert fot the third way

    I know you're just being provocative, but what rot! Blair's misjudgement on Iraq had nothing to do with the third way, and while Cameron did try to learn some political lessons from Blair, he made the mistake of triangulating not with the centre but away from the centre.
    well ask someone what they think these leaders legacy is and Id suggest thats what they will think.

    Theyve all done lots of other things both good and bad but thats what theyll be remembered for by the GBP
    Yes, I agree with that, but framing it as the legacy of the third way is what I'm objecting to.
    the legacy of the third way is increasingly the rise of extremism

    trump, chemnitz, lega, corbyn

    how we get out of it fk knows
    What has happened is a cosy consensus between mainstream politicians of all colours on a number of issues, so people who felt strongly on the other side had no-one to vote for.

    The only way out is for mainstream politicians to propose bold policies on immigration, housing, social care etc - or people will increasingly turn to extremists who will talk about these issues.
    yes

    unfortunately in the UK only Corbyn comes near to that.
    The problem is that Corbyn has no sensible or workable ideas in these areas. He can think of all sorts of ways to spend money, but has no idea how to raise it in the first place.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 18,043

    HYUFD said:

    Some will remain as independents like Field but defections to the LDs or a new centrist party would really make a difference

    They haven't got the balls to do anything. They are being led, one by one, to the vets to be put down.

    By the next election, the Parliamentary Labour Party will become as unrecognisable as the current member-driven party has become to that which we have known for decades. "Traditional", voted-for-them-all-my-life Labour is dying by the day.
    It's a funny postion to be in. They either get replaced or stay but to vote against things they dont believe in probably with a political officer by their side to ensure good behaviour.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 23,661

    Legacies

    Blair - Iraq
    Brown - Financial Crisis
    Cameron - Brexit

    not exactly an advert fot the third way

    I know you're just being provocative, but what rot! Blair's misjudgement on Iraq had nothing to do with the third way, and while Cameron did try to learn some political lessons from Blair, he made the mistake of triangulating not with the centre but away from the centre.
    well ask someone what they think these leaders legacy is and Id suggest thats what they will think.

    Theyve all done lots of other things both good and bad but thats what theyll be remembered for by the GBP
    Yes, I agree with that, but framing it as the legacy of the third way is what I'm objecting to.
    the legacy of the third way is increasingly the rise of extremism

    trump, chemnitz, lega, corbyn

    how we get out of it fk knows
    I think the problem is deeper than that. We in the West assumed that living standards would grow at a certain rate into perpetuity. But we didn't factor in - for one - the issue of demographic drag. Simply, an ever greater proportion of our economic output is going to be spent looking after the old.

    Some countries will survive because their democratic institutions are strong enough. Other countries will succomb to violent revolutions as their people demand something that cannot be delivered. Populists will thrive because it's easier to blame someone else than to say "hey, our education system hasn't worked, and our fertility rate has been too low, and you know we need to really think about how we deal with ever greater numbers of 85 year olds."
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 20,111

    Legacies

    Blair - Iraq
    Brown - Financial Crisis
    Cameron - Brexit

    not exactly an advert fot the third way

    I know you're just being provocative, but what rot! Blair's misjudgement on Iraq had nothing to do with the third way, and while Cameron did try to learn some political lessons from Blair, he made the mistake of triangulating not with the centre but away from the centre.
    well ask someone what they think these leaders legacy is and Id suggest thats what they will think.

    Theyve all done lots of other things both good and bad but thats what theyll be remembered for by the GBP
    Yes, I agree with that, but framing it as the legacy of the third way is what I'm objecting to.
    the legacy of the third way is increasingly the rise of extremism

    trump, chemnitz, lega, corbyn

    how we get out of it fk knows
    You get out of it by listening to voters concerns - and ending the patrician "we know what's best for you" closing down of debate, that gives you the likes of Clegg and Miliband being adamant that voters should have no say on our relationship with the EU. Engage, for God's sake - make the case and win the argument.
  • Sandpit said:

    Legacies

    Blair - Iraq
    Brown - Financial Crisis
    Cameron - Brexit

    not exactly an advert fot the third way

    I know you're just being provocative, but what rot! Blair's misjudgement on Iraq had nothing to do with the third way, and while Cameron did try to learn some political lessons from Blair, he made the mistake of triangulating not with the centre but away from the centre.
    well ask someone what they think these leaders legacy is and Id suggest thats what they will think.

    Theyve all done lots of other things both good and bad but thats what theyll be remembered for by the GBP
    Yes, I agree with that, but framing it as the legacy of the third way is what I'm objecting to.
    the legacy of the third way is increasingly the rise of extremism

    trump, chemnitz, lega, corbyn

    how we get out of it fk knows
    What has happened is a cosy consensus has been allowed to develop between mainstream politicians of all colours on a number of issues, so people who felt strongly on the other side had no-one to vote for.

    The only way out is for mainstream politicians to propose bold policies on immigration, housing, social care etc - or people will increasingly turn to extremists who will talk about these issues.

    Mrs May tried (badly) to talk about social care last year, and we saw how that went - but it’s the right idea, and we need to get sensible discussions going on these issues.
    Sorry but that isn't true. People with extreme views have always had BNP/UKIP and an array of lefties from Socialist Worker/ British Communist Party to the Popular Front of Judea. The difference now is that the hotheads have infiltrated the main party system through moderate people taking the snowflake "I don't do politics" line combined with the internet and poor party management at a local level, amongst other factors. A relative minority of head-bangers are now calling the tune at national level.

    My dear old dad (RIP) used to always go on about the common sense of the British Electorate. I hope he uses his influence upstairs to get the message down here to tell moderate people to wake up before we find ourselves sleepwalking into some kind of 1930s nightmare
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 1,072

    HYUFD said:

    Some will remain as independents like Field but defections to the LDs or a new centrist party would really make a difference

    They haven't got the balls to do anything. They are being led, one by one, to the vets to be put down.

    By the next election, the Parliamentary Labour Party will become as unrecognisable as the current member-driven party has become to that which we have known for decades. "Traditional", voted-for-them-all-my-life Labour is dying by the day.
    The problem is traditional Labour voters will still vote for it at least one more time, and this doesn't look like a group of people which would willingly relinquish power once it had got hold of it. Has Corbyrn ever expressed admiration for a government which hasn't ignored elections? Our unwritten constitution is ripe territory for their tactics.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 21,668
    Probably. Only the prospect of losing their pay cheques is likely to prompt Labour MPs on the right of the party into decisive action. It's not a heroic cause, but it's one very dear to their hearts.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 19,702
    edited September 7

    Legacies

    Blair - Iraq
    Brown - Financial Crisis
    Cameron - Brexit

    not exactly an advert fot the third way

    I know you're just being provocative, but what rot! Blair's misjudgement on Iraq had nothing to do with the third way, and while Cameron did try to learn some political lessons from Blair, he made the mistake of triangulating not with the centre but away from the centre.
    well ask someone what they think these leaders legacy is and Id suggest thats what they will think.

    Theyve all done lots of other things both good and bad but thats what theyll be remembered for by the GBP
    Yes, I agree with that, but framing it as the legacy of the third way is what I'm objecting to.
    the legacy of the third way is increasingly the rise of extremism

    trump, chemnitz, lega, corbyn

    how we get out of it fk knows
    You get out of it by listening to voters concerns - and ending the patrician "we know what's best for you" closing down of debate, that gives you the likes of Clegg and Miliband being adamant that voters should have no say on our relationship with the EU. Engage, for God's sake - make the case and win the argument.
    The trouble is that Cameron engaged, made the case, and lost the argument!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 22,515

    HYUFD said:

    Some will remain as independents like Field but defections to the LDs or a new centrist party would really make a difference

    They haven't got the balls to do anything. They are being led, one by one, to the vets to be put down.

    By the next election, the Parliamentary Labour Party will become as unrecognisable as the current member-driven party has become to that which we have known for decades. "Traditional", voted-for-them-all-my-life Labour is dying by the day.
    I watched the video of the incident that led to Joan Ryan's VoNC, and what was striking was that before it got to the accusations of antisemitism, the activist was questioning her about her policy on settlements as if it were a domestic political issue. It's a weirdly atavistic version of colonialism.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 18,043
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Legacies

    Blair - Iraq
    Brown - Financial Crisis
    Cameron - Brexit

    not exactly an advert fot the third way

    I know you're just being provocative, but what rot! Blair's misjudgement on Iraq had nothing to do with the third way, and while Cameron did try to learn some political lessons from Blair, he made the mistake of triangulating not with the centre but away from the centre.
    well ask someone what they think these leaders legacy is and Id suggest thats what they will think.

    Theyve all done lots of other things both good and bad but thats what theyll be remembered for by the GBP
    Yes, I agree with that, but framing it as the legacy of the third way is what I'm objecting to.
    the legacy of the third way is increasingly the rise of extremism

    trump, chemnitz, lega, corbyn

    how we get out of it fk knows
    What has happened is a cosy consensus between mainstream politicians of all colours on a number of issues, so people who felt strongly on the other side had no-one to vote for.

    The only way out is for mainstream politicians to propose bold policies on immigration, housing, social care etc - or people will increasingly turn to extremists who will talk about these issues.
    yes

    unfortunately in the UK only Corbyn comes near to that.
    The problem is that Corbyn has no sensible or workable ideas in these areas. He can think of all sorts of ways to spend money, but has no idea how to raise it in the first place.
    Of course

    but the other political parties have stood by and let him claim the space that concerns voters

    have you seen the LD or Conservative plan for any of the above ? No me neither.
  • Amusing, and I can't stand him, but I guess at least isn't under investigation for fiddling with people that don't want to be fiddled with and he hasn't gone to crowd funding to pay for his divorce legal bill
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 1,988
    edited September 7
    Anazina said:

    I don’t see Joan Ryan as worth saving. I’d vote to de-select her.

    (I have more time for Gavin Shuker).

    I think deselections are a consequence of the membership and PLP being so out-of-kilter. They are therefore necessary.

    Typical Corbynite, favours the views of a few hundred thousand Labour members over the views of several million Labour voters. Posts like this make me think that there's no hope for the party.
    How wonderful pb is !! I have been accused of being a pbTory and a “typical Corbynite” in my time.

    Some posters here have little sense of perspective.

    Labour (or the Tories for that matter) can only be an effective party, if the membership & the Parliamentary Party are reasonably aligned.

    This doesn’t mean “mass deselections”, but it does mean that MPs like Joan Ryan (who in any case will be over 67 by the next election, and has had a long innings) should make way for someone younger and more representative. I really don’t think that is unreasonable.

    Isaac Barrow resigned the Lucasian Chair of Mathematics at Cambridge so that his younger and more able protege could hold it. It's intergenerational fairness. Joan should go on those grounds alone, to make the age distribution of Labour MPs more representative.

    She should do a Barrow.

    Last time I looked, Labour was the oldest party, as judged by its MPs. Yet its voting base is dominated by the young.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 6,391

    Anazina said:

    I don’t see Joan Ryan as worth saving. I’d vote to de-select her.

    (I have more time for Gavin Shuker).

    I think deselections are a consequence of the membership and PLP being so out-of-kilter. They are therefore necessary.

    Typical Corbynite, favours the views of a few hundred thousand Labour members over the views of several million Labour voters. Posts like this make me think that there's no hope for the party.
    I think the best hope must be for all the MPs who voted for no confidence in Corbyn to set up their own grouping. They rename the party The Parliamentary Labour Party and ask moderate Labour members to join. The rump Labour party can rebrand as Momentum.

    The same thing may be necessary for the Tory party. I have nothing in common with Brexiters, they are economy crashers in the same way Corbyn is ,and large numbers (like Corbyn) are racists. The only real difference is their eyes swivel in the opposite direction.
    What are the numbers? If > 50% of MPs are not Corbynites they could overnight form the Official Opposition and have a Leader of the Opposition. Corbyn would then be the leader of the 3rd or 4th party.
    They'd need money, but I hear that there's £50Million going begging. They'd need an electoral agreement with the LibDems. They'd need to support PR so that the realignment can be completed after the next election.
    Or they could be picked off one at a time.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 20,111

    Legacies

    Blair - Iraq
    Brown - Financial Crisis
    Cameron - Brexit

    not exactly an advert fot the third way

    I know you're just being provocative, but what rot! Blair's misjudgement on Iraq had nothing to do with the third way, and while Cameron did try to learn some political lessons from Blair, he made the mistake of triangulating not with the centre but away from the centre.
    well ask someone what they think these leaders legacy is and Id suggest thats what they will think.

    Theyve all done lots of other things both good and bad but thats what theyll be remembered for by the GBP
    Yes, I agree with that, but framing it as the legacy of the third way is what I'm objecting to.
    the legacy of the third way is increasingly the rise of extremism

    trump, chemnitz, lega, corbyn

    how we get out of it fk knows
    You get out of it by listening to voters concerns - and ending the patrician "we know what's best for you" closing down of debate, that gives you the likes of Clegg and Miliband being adamant that voters should have no say on our relationship with the EU. Engage, for God's sake - make the case and win the argument.
    The trouble is that Cameron made the case and lost the argument!
    Because the case wasn't strong enough (and more importantly, when you come from the patrician "we know what's best for you" closing down of debate, you've lost the skills to know when you're losing the argument - and how to change the terms of the debate to win people round).

    Too many Remainers are still in that mindset.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 18,043
    rcs1000 said:

    Legacies

    Blair - Iraq
    Brown - Financial Crisis
    Cameron - Brexit

    not exactly an advert fot the third way

    I know you're just being provocative, but what rot! Blair's misjudgement on Iraq had nothing to do with the third way, and while Cameron did try to learn some political lessons from Blair, he made the mistake of triangulating not with the centre but away from the centre.
    well ask someone what they think these leaders legacy is and Id suggest thats what they will think.

    Theyve all done lots of other things both good and bad but thats what theyll be remembered for by the GBP
    Yes, I agree with that, but framing it as the legacy of the third way is what I'm objecting to.
    the legacy of the third way is increasingly the rise of extremism

    trump, chemnitz, lega, corbyn

    how we get out of it fk knows
    I think the problem is deeper than that. We in the West assumed that living standards would grow at a certain rate into perpetuity. But we didn't factor in - for one - the issue of demographic drag. Simply, an ever greater proportion of our economic output is going to be spent looking after the old.

    Some countries will survive because their democratic institutions are strong enough. Other countries will succomb to violent revolutions as their people demand something that cannot be delivered. Populists will thrive because it's easier to blame someone else than to say "hey, our education system hasn't worked, and our fertility rate has been too low, and you know we need to really think about how we deal with ever greater numbers of 85 year olds."
    Thats a fair point. Personally I think the fall of communism was also a major factor as it unleashed globalisation and no Western economy has really planned that well for its consequences.

    With repect to ageing populations Im never sure if thats a blessing in disguise. If AI is going to replace latge chunks of work then having a shrinking population might be a better place.

    Of course we have to get there first
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 21,668

    he hasn't gone to crowd funding to pay for his divorce legal bill
    Don't give him ideas.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 46,869
    Blimey, Tesla down 7% pre-open, Chief accounting officer quits.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 18,043

    Probably. Only the prospect of losing their pay cheques is likely to prompt Labour MPs on the right of the party into decisive action. It's not a heroic cause, but it's one very dear to their hearts.

    fortunately were running a pilot scheme in Stormont to see how that works
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 5,919
    Anazina said:

    Sandpit said:

    15 minute show, 20 mins max. A technical and analytical conversation needs concentration, it’s not the sort of thing you can listen to in the background. Maybe record two or three shows at the same time though, if that easier for guest co-ordination etc, intros and outros could be done in post.
    Agreed. Most podcasts are 20 minutes max, many are much shorter. The only time I get to listen to a full PB podcast is when I have a gigantic amount of washing up – usually post a huge weekend roast. Happens quite rarely.
    It's about the digital environment. PBing is by definition about sitting and looking at a screen. I can see that if I commuted, esp. if I did so by car, podcasts would appeal, but I don't, so they don't. I just question whether there is much point in making the existence of a new podcast into a threader given, as I said last thread, how little the content of the podcast usually features in the discussion.

    It isn't the length of the podcasts that matters, it's the fact that they are podcasts. To strike a spark here they really, really need to be videos.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 8,203
    Sandpit said:

    15 minute show, 20 mins max. A technical and analytical conversation needs concentration, it’s not the sort of thing you can listen to in the background. Maybe record two or three shows at the same time though, if that easier for guest co-ordination etc, intros and outros could be done in post.
    Yes, split them up.
    Perhaps have a separate thread for each, starting with the most timely one ?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 46,869

    he hasn't gone to crowd funding to pay for his divorce legal bill
    Don't give him ideas.
    He'd get it paid and all.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 21,740
    Pulpstar said:

    Blimey, Tesla down 7% pre-open, Chief accounting officer quits.

    Wow. Musk's interview was bad, but not *that* bad ...

    (There must be something else going on.)
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 22,515
    Pulpstar said:

    Blimey, Tesla down 7% pre-open, Chief accounting officer quits.

    Elon Musk smoking dope on a radio show can't be helping...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 20,111

    HYUFD said:

    Some will remain as independents like Field but defections to the LDs or a new centrist party would really make a difference

    They haven't got the balls to do anything. They are being led, one by one, to the vets to be put down.

    By the next election, the Parliamentary Labour Party will become as unrecognisable as the current member-driven party has become to that which we have known for decades. "Traditional", voted-for-them-all-my-life Labour is dying by the day.
    It's a funny postion to be in. They either get replaced or stay but to vote against things they dont believe in probably with a political officer by their side to ensure good behaviour.
    Going to be like football managers, with Labour MPs having a Corbyn-approved Director of Politics making the decisions for them....
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 19,990

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Legacies

    Blair - Iraq
    Brown - Financial Crisis
    Cameron - Brexit

    not exactly an advert fot the third way

    I know you're just being provocative, but what rot! Blair's misjudgement on Iraq had nothing to do with the third way, and while Cameron did try to learn some political lessons from Blair, he made the mistake of triangulating not with the centre but away from the centre.
    well ask someone what they think these leaders legacy is and Id suggest thats what they will think.

    Theyve all done lots of other things both good and bad but thats what theyll be remembered for by the GBP
    Yes, I agree with that, but framing it as the legacy of the third way is what I'm objecting to.
    the legacy of the third way is increasingly the rise of extremism

    trump, chemnitz, lega, corbyn

    how we get out of it fk knows
    What has happened is a cosy consensus between mainstream politicians of all colours on a number of issues, so people who felt strongly on the other side had no-one to vote for.

    The only way out is for mainstream politicians to propose bold policies on immigration, housing, social care etc - or people will increasingly turn to extremists who will talk about these issues.
    yes

    unfortunately in the UK only Corbyn comes near to that.
    The problem is that Corbyn has no sensible or workable ideas in these areas. He can think of all sorts of ways to spend money, but has no idea how to raise it in the first place.
    Of course

    but the other political parties have stood by and let him claim the space that concerns voters

    have you seen the LD or Conservative plan for any of the above ? No me neither.
    I agree. The LDs have been completely invisible for the last year, and the Tories are talking about little else other than Brexit.

    Then again, as Joan Ryan said this morning, Labour have spent the summer arguing loudly about their right to be racist, as opposed to anything that might interest the wider voting public.

    We get the politicians we deserve sometimes.
  • Anazina said:

    I don’t see Joan Ryan as worth saving. I’d vote to de-select her.

    (I have more time for Gavin Shuker).

    I think deselections are a consequence of the membership and PLP being so out-of-kilter. They are therefore necessary.

    Typical Corbynite, favours the views of a few hundred thousand Labour members over the views of several million Labour voters. Posts like this make me think that there's no hope for the party.
    I think the best hope must be for all the MPs who voted for no confidence in Corbyn to set up their own grouping. They rename the party The Parliamentary Labour Party and ask moderate Labour members to join. The rump Labour party can rebrand as Momentum.

    The same thing may be necessary for the Tory party. I have nothing in common with Brexiters, they are economy crashers in the same way Corbyn is ,and large numbers (like Corbyn) are racists. The only real difference is their eyes swivel in the opposite direction.
    What are the numbers? If > 50% of MPs are not Corbynites they could overnight form the Official Opposition and have a Leader of the Opposition. Corbyn would then be the leader of the 3rd or 4th party.
    They'd need money, but I hear that there's £50Million going begging. They'd need an electoral agreement with the LibDems. They'd need to support PR so that the realignment can be completed after the next election.
    Or they could be picked off one at a time.
    They will be picked off one at a time as it is, though I fear they are going to sit there like doomed rabbits in headlights. I must say that I am quite surprised that Momentum have started this early. They would be much better off starting much closer to an election so that the moderates don't get a "nothing to lose" mindset, but then extremists are always impatient
  • Anazina said:

    I don’t see Joan Ryan as worth saving. I’d vote to de-select her.

    (I have more time for Gavin Shuker).

    I think deselections are a consequence of the membership and PLP being so out-of-kilter. They are therefore necessary.

    Typical Corbynite, favours the views of a few hundred thousand Labour members over the views of several million Labour voters. Posts like this make me think that there's no hope for the party.
    How wonderful pb is !! I have been accused of being a pbTory and a “typical Corbynite” in my time.

    Some posters here have little sense of perspective.

    Labour (or the Tories for that matter) can only be an effective party, if the membership & the Parliamentary Party are reasonably aligned.

    This doesn’t mean “mass deselections”, but it does mean that MPs like Joan Ryan (who in any case will be over 67 by the next election, and has had a long innings) should make way for someone younger and more representative. I really don’t think that is unreasonable.

    Isaac Barrow resigned the Lucasian Chair of Mathematics at Cambridge so that his younger and more able protege could hold it. It's intergenerational fairness. Joan should go on those grounds alone, to make the age distribution of Labour MPs more representative.

    She should do a Barrow.

    Last time I looked, Labour was the oldest party, as judged by its MPs. Yet its voting base is dominated by the young.
    On that basis, do you think Corbyn (aged 69) and McDonnell (aged 66) should also be standing down?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 23,661
    Pulpstar said:

    Blimey, Tesla down 7% pre-open, Chief accounting officer quits.

    That's normally not a good sign.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 21,740
    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Blimey, Tesla down 7% pre-open, Chief accounting officer quits.

    That's normally not a good sign.
    He was only in the job for a month. A quote from Twitter (sorry, don't know how to embed tweet comments):

    "Telling quote from the former chief accounting officer of $TSLA. “Since I joined Tesla on August 6th, the level of public attention placed on the company, as well as the pace within the company, have exceeded my expectations. As a result, this caused me to reconsider my future.”"
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 11,165
    felix said:

    Floater said:

    Labour have been destroyed as a reasonable party.

    You stay in that filth then you are tainted by it.

    Spot on - I'm not sure we often agree [ although I may be muddling you with someone else] but this is completely correct. The majority of Labour MPs are tacitly supporting a leader they loathe and a party whose membership is now dominated in many areas by extremists from the far left whose views are basically the same as the current leadership. The UK could literally end up sleepwalking into a nightmare from which the wakening would be Venezuela! It really is time for them to act. If the Tories were led by Boris or worse my views on them would be similar.
    I don't agree with this at all, of course (and I'm far from convinced that either of you would vote Labour with its current programme even if we were led by the Archangel Gabriel). But it does illustrate a basic issue which will inevitably come up. Are people seeking (re)selection as Labour candidates prepared to support a Labour government led by the current leadership, and, if so, with what caveats? I'm not sure that every centrist MP has yet decided what they think on that, and some are clearly torn, but they will need at selection time to be clear in their own minds and communicate their decision to their constituency parties.

    If the answer is yes - while reserving the right to oppose any non-confidence issue that they consider too extreme - then I think virtually ALL of them will get reselected. If the answer is no, then with the best will in the world they cannot sensibly stand as Labour candidates: people who vote Labour are entitled to think they are helping elect a Labour government. What they do instead - form a new party, defect to serve under Vince or Theresa or Rees-Mogg or Boris, stand as independents, or retire is a separate issue and entirely a matter for them. Their decision should be respected and not abused, but it needs to be made.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 4,339


    Looks like Laurie Penny has an equally objectionable sibling
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 22,515

    HYUFD said:

    Some will remain as independents like Field but defections to the LDs or a new centrist party would really make a difference

    They haven't got the balls to do anything. They are being led, one by one, to the vets to be put down.

    By the next election, the Parliamentary Labour Party will become as unrecognisable as the current member-driven party has become to that which we have known for decades. "Traditional", voted-for-them-all-my-life Labour is dying by the day.
    It's a funny postion to be in. They either get replaced or stay but to vote against things they dont believe in probably with a political officer by their side to ensure good behaviour.
    Going to be like football managers, with Labour MPs having a Corbyn-approved Director of Politics making the decisions for them....
    Meanwhile the Brexiteers all act like people on a football phone-in, telling the manager her tactics are all wrong and she just needs to put more strikers up front to get one past Barnier.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 19,990

    Pulpstar said:

    Blimey, Tesla down 7% pre-open, Chief accounting officer quits.

    Wow. Musk's interview was bad, but not *that* bad ...

    (There must be something else going on.)
    As we were talking about podcasts, this one comes in at 157 minutes! I have a feeling it will be worth watching though.
  • Legacies

    Blair - Iraq
    Brown - Financial Crisis
    Cameron - Brexit

    not exactly an advert fot the third way

    I know you're just being provocative, but what rot! Blair's misjudgement on Iraq had nothing to do with the third way, and while Cameron did try to learn some political lessons from Blair, he made the mistake of triangulating not with the centre but away from the centre.
    well ask someone what they think these leaders legacy is and Id suggest thats what they will think.

    Theyve all done lots of other things both good and bad but thats what theyll be remembered for by the GBP
    Yes, I agree with that, but framing it as the legacy of the third way is what I'm objecting to.
    the legacy of the third way is increasingly the rise of extremism

    trump, chemnitz, lega, corbyn

    how we get out of it fk knows
    You get out of it by listening to voters concerns - and ending the patrician "we know what's best for you" closing down of debate, that gives you the likes of Clegg and Miliband being adamant that voters should have no say on our relationship with the EU. Engage, for God's sake - make the case and win the argument.
    The trouble is that Cameron made the case and lost the argument!
    Because the case wasn't strong enough (and more importantly, when you come from the patrician "we know what's best for you" closing down of debate, you've lost the skills to know when you're losing the argument - and how to change the terms of the debate to win people round).

    Too many Remainers are still in that mindset.
    Many "remainers", of which I am one, believe that we have a parliamentary democracy and the referendum was unconstitutional and ill thought out in its mechanisms. We do not have referenda on other aspects of our flawed democracy (if we did it would become an annual event).
    We have to live with the consequences of the Brexit referendum and I accept that we will leave the EU. That will not stop people from calling Leavers to account, and particularly the politicians for the mess they have created. I will continue to call for rejoining which I believe may take 20 years. I accept you may not like that and take a different view, but there we are
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 46,869

    Pulpstar said:

    Blimey, Tesla down 7% pre-open, Chief accounting officer quits.

    Wow. Musk's interview was bad, but not *that* bad ...

    (There must be something else going on.)
  • Anazina said:

    I don’t see Joan Ryan as worth saving. I’d vote to de-select her.

    (I have more time for Gavin Shuker).

    I think deselections are a consequence of the membership and PLP being so out-of-kilter. They are therefore necessary.

    Typical Corbynite, favours the views of a few hundred thousand Labour members over the views of several million Labour voters. Posts like this make me think that there's no hope for the party.
    I think the best hope must be for all the MPs who voted for no confidence in Corbyn to set up their own grouping. They rename the party The Parliamentary Labour Party and ask moderate Labour members to join. The rump Labour party can rebrand as Momentum.

    The same thing may be necessary for the Tory party. I have nothing in common with Brexiters, they are economy crashers in the same way Corbyn is ,and large numbers (like Corbyn) are racists. The only real difference is their eyes swivel in the opposite direction.
    What are the numbers? If > 50% of MPs are not Corbynites they could overnight form the Official Opposition and have a Leader of the Opposition. Corbyn would then be the leader of the 3rd or 4th party.
    They'd need money, but I hear that there's £50Million going begging. They'd need an electoral agreement with the LibDems. They'd need to support PR so that the realignment can be completed after the next election.
    Or they could be picked off one at a time.
    They will be picked off one at a time as it is, though I fear they are going to sit there like doomed rabbits in headlights. I must say that I am quite surprised that Momentum have started this early. They would be much better off starting much closer to an election so that the moderates don't get a "nothing to lose" mindset, but then extremists are always impatient
    I expect that waiting for the new boundaries was going to provide the cover. As you say, they are impatient and there is ahead of fantatical steam brewing up in some CLPs and perhaps it is going to lead to a split sooner rather than later.

    This Press TV incident is truly disturbing - my foreboding level has gone up a notch.
  • Probably. Only the prospect of losing their pay cheques is likely to prompt Labour MPs on the right of the party into decisive action. It's not a heroic cause, but it's one very dear to their hearts.

    Every day is another day accrued in their gold plated pension too....
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 1,988

    Anazina said:

    I don’t see Joan Ryan as worth saving. I’d vote to de-select her.

    (I have more time for Gavin Shuker).

    I think deselections are a consequence of the membership and PLP being so out-of-kilter. They are therefore necessary.

    Typical Corbynite, favours the views of a few hundred thousand Labour members over the views of several million Labour voters. Posts like this make me think that there's no hope for the party.
    How wonderful pb is !! I have been accused of being a pbTory and a “typical Corbynite” in my time.

    Some posters here have little sense of perspective.

    Labour (or the Tories for that matter) can only be an effective party, if the membership & the Parliamentary Party are reasonably aligned.

    This doesn’t mean “mass deselections”, but it does mean that MPs like Joan Ryan (who in any case will be over 67 by the next election, and has had a long innings) should make way for someone younger and more representative. I really don’t think that is unreasonable.

    Isaac Barrow resigned the Lucasian Chair of Mathematics at Cambridge so that his younger and more able protege could hold it. It's intergenerational fairness. Joan should go on those grounds alone, to make the age distribution of Labour MPs more representative.

    She should do a Barrow.

    Last time I looked, Labour was the oldest party, as judged by its MPs. Yet its voting base is dominated by the young.
    On that basis, do you think Corbyn (aged 69) and McDonnell (aged 66) should also be standing down?
    I would say that the distribution of MPs should reflect the distribution of members & of voters. This is routinely accepted as a good thing in terms of gender balance and ethnicity.

    I think, as intergenerational fairness is increasingly an important political theme, it will become increasingly important to get a better age balance.

    It is bad for democracy that the MPs are so old, and particularly bad for the Labour Party as the young vote is skewed in their direction.

    Very roughly, I think the centre of gravity of the Parliamentary Party should be at the centre of gravity of the Membership, accepting that both are broad churches.

    I see no reason to mourn the loss of Joan Ryan, who in any case is a disreputable person (remember, the expenses scandal, and her reactions to it).
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 7,957
    Interesting initiative from the NY Times:
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 21,740
    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Blimey, Tesla down 7% pre-open, Chief accounting officer quits.

    Wow. Musk's interview was bad, but not *that* bad ...

    (There must be something else going on.)
    As we were talking about podcasts, this one comes in at 157 minutes! I have a feeling it will be worth watching though.
    Yeah, mentioned that this morning on a previous thread. Only saw the last bit of it, but stills saw him sipping the whisky and smoking a joint.

    Some people seem to think he has a brain the size of a planet. That might be true, but he apparently doesn't seem to realise that what is *legal* might not be *wise*, especially when you're a multi-billionaire with loads of debts.
  • felix said:

    Floater said:

    Labour have been destroyed as a reasonable party.

    You stay in that filth then you are tainted by it.

    Spot on - I'm not sure we often agree [ although I may be muddling you with someone else] but this is completely correct. The majority of Labour MPs are tacitly supporting a leader they loathe and a party whose membership is now dominated in many areas by extremists from the far left whose views are basically the same as the current leadership. The UK could literally end up sleepwalking into a nightmare from which the wakening would be Venezuela! It really is time for them to act. If the Tories were led by Boris or worse my views on them would be similar.
    I don't agree with this at all, of course (and I'm far from convinced that either of you would vote Labour with its current programme even if we were led by the Archangel Gabriel). But it does illustrate a basic issue which will inevitably come up. Are people seeking (re)selection as Labour candidates prepared to support a Labour government led by the current leadership, and, if so, with what caveats? I'm not sure that every centrist MP has yet decided what they think on that, and some are clearly torn, but they will need at selection time to be clear in their own minds and communicate their decision to their constituency parties.

    If the answer is yes - while reserving the right to oppose any non-confidence issue that they consider too extreme - then I think virtually ALL of them will get reselected. If the answer is no, then with the best will in the world they cannot sensibly stand as Labour candidates: people who vote Labour are entitled to think they are helping elect a Labour government. What they do instead - form a new party, defect to serve under Vince or Theresa or Rees-Mogg or Boris, stand as independents, or retire is a separate issue and entirely a matter for them. Their decision should be respected and not abused, but it needs to be made.
    Your bracketed sentence shows the breath taking arrogance of those that support the Momentum Party (formally known as Labour). It is not dissimilar to the right wing of the Tory party. I have never voted Labour, but with the ever rightward movement of the Tory party I would happily see a Labour party led by a moderate leader take office, and would most definitely lend my vote.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 19,702
    edited September 7

    I don't agree with this at all, of course (and I'm far from convinced that either of you would vote Labour with its current programme even if we were led by the Archangel Gabriel). But it does illustrate a basic issue which will inevitably come up. Are people seeking (re)selection as Labour candidates prepared to support a Labour government led by the current leadership, and, if so, with what caveats? I'm not sure that every centrist MP has yet decided what they think on that, and some are clearly torn, but they will need at selection time to be clear in their own minds and communicate their decision to their constituency parties.

    If the answer is yes - while reserving the right to oppose any non-confidence issue that they consider too extreme - then I think virtually ALL of them will get reselected. If the answer is no, then with the best will in the world they cannot sensibly stand as Labour candidates: people who vote Labour are entitled to think they are helping elect a Labour government. What they do instead - form a new party, defect to serve under Vince or Theresa or Rees-Mogg or Boris, stand as independents, or retire is a separate issue and entirely a matter for them. Their decision should be respected and not abused, but it needs to be made.

    The problem with that analysis is that the moderates think that they represent the core values of the Labour Party, and that the extremist entryists who have taken over the party are a hopefully temporary aberration. People who vote Labour will in many cases agree with them, and will be voting Labour despite Corbyn.

    TBH there's no right or wrong in this: it's a straight, old-fashioned power struggle, not a morality test. At the moment the extremists are winning hands-down, so the decision sensible Labour supporters and MPs have to take is whether to hang in there and hope something turns up, or take the massive gamble (and emotional wrench) or joining or setting up an alternative party, which is likely to fail as a strategy. Most will simply drift off in disillusion, I expect.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 9,418

    felix said:

    Floater said:

    Labour have been destroyed as a reasonable party.

    You stay in that filth then you are tainted by it.

    Spot on - I'm not sure we often agree [ although I may be muddling you with someone else] but this is completely correct. The majority of Labour MPs are tacitly supporting a leader they loathe and a party whose membership is now dominated in many areas by extremists from the far left whose views are basically the same as the current leadership. The UK could literally end up sleepwalking into a nightmare from which the wakening would be Venezuela! It really is time for them to act. If the Tories were led by Boris or worse my views on them would be similar.
    I don't agree with this at all, of course (and I'm far from convinced that either of you would vote Labour with its current programme even if we were led by the Archangel Gabriel). But it does illustrate a basic issue which will inevitably come up. Are people seeking (re)selection as Labour candidates prepared to support a Labour government led by the current leadership, and, if so, with what caveats? I'm not sure that every centrist MP has yet decided what they think on that, and some are clearly torn, but they will need at selection time to be clear in their own minds and communicate their decision to their constituency parties.

    If the answer is yes - while reserving the right to oppose any non-confidence issue that they consider too extreme - then I think virtually ALL of them will get reselected. If the answer is no, then with the best will in the world they cannot sensibly stand as Labour candidates: people who vote Labour are entitled to think they are helping elect a Labour government. What they do instead - form a new party, defect to serve under Vince or Theresa or Rees-Mogg or Boris, stand as independents, or retire is a separate issue and entirely a matter for them. Their decision should be respected and not abused, but it needs to be made.
    Should Blair have had Corbyn deselected?
  • Anazina said:

    I don’t see Joan Ryan as worth saving. I’d vote to de-select her.

    (I have more time for Gavin Shuker).

    I think deselections are a consequence of the membership and PLP being so out-of-kilter. They are therefore necessary.

    Typical Corbynite, favours the views of a few hundred thousand Labour members over the views of several million Labour voters. Posts like this make me think that there's no hope for the party.
    I think the best hope must be for all the MPs who voted for no confidence in Corbyn to set up their own grouping. They rename the party The Parliamentary Labour Party and ask moderate Labour members to join. The rump Labour party can rebrand as Momentum.

    The same thing may be necessary for the Tory party. I have nothing in common with Brexiters, they are economy crashers in the same way Corbyn is ,and large numbers (like Corbyn) are racists. The only real difference is their eyes swivel in the opposite direction.
    What are the numbers? If > 50% of MPs are not Corbynites they could overnight form the Official Opposition and have a Leader of the Opposition. Corbyn would then be the leader of the 3rd or 4th party.
    They'd need money, but I hear that there's £50Million going begging. They'd need an electoral agreement with the LibDems. They'd need to support PR so that the realignment can be completed after the next election.
    Or they could be picked off one at a time.
    They will be picked off one at a time as it is, though I fear they are going to sit there like doomed rabbits in headlights. I must say that I am quite surprised that Momentum have started this early. They would be much better off starting much closer to an election so that the moderates don't get a "nothing to lose" mindset, but then extremists are always impatient
    I expect that waiting for the new boundaries was going to provide the cover. As you say, they are impatient and there is ahead of fantatical steam brewing up in some CLPs and perhaps it is going to lead to a split sooner rather than later.

    This Press TV incident is truly disturbing - my foreboding level has gone up a notch.
    Labour MPs have a choice. Do they want to support an anti-Semite quasi-Marxist cult take office after they have been deselected, or do they take action now and remove this threat to our country from the positions as Leader of the Opposition
  • RobDRobD Posts: 34,291

    Interesting initiative from the NY Times:

    Seems a bit pointless, the poll won't be useful until most of the responses are in.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 15,074

    felix said:

    Floater said:

    Labour have been destroyed as a reasonable party.

    You stay in that filth then you are tainted by it.

    Spot on - I'm not sure we often agree [ although I may be muddling you with someone else] but this is completely correct. The majority of Labour MPs are tacitly supporting a leader they loathe and a party whose membership is now dominated in many areas by extremists from the far left whose views are basically the same as the current leadership. The UK could literally end up sleepwalking into a nightmare from which the wakening would be Venezuela! It really is time for them to act. If the Tories were led by Boris or worse my views on them would be similar.
    I don't agree with this at all, of course (and I'm far from convinced that either of you would vote Labour with its current programme even if we were led by the Archangel Gabriel). But it does illustrate a basic issue which will inevitably come up. Are people seeking (re)selection as Labour candidates prepared to support a Labour government led by the current leadership, and, if so, with what caveats? I'm not sure that every centrist MP has yet decided what they think on that, and some are clearly torn, but they will need at selection time to be clear in their own minds and communicate their decision to their constituency parties.

    If the answer is yes - while reserving the right to oppose any non-confidence issue that they consider too extreme - then I think virtually ALL of them will get reselected. If the answer is no, then with the best will in the world they cannot sensibly stand as Labour candidates: people who vote Labour are entitled to think they are helping elect a Labour government. What they do instead - form a new party, defect to serve under Vince or Theresa or Rees-Mogg or Boris, stand as independents, or retire is a separate issue and entirely a matter for them. Their decision should be respected and not abused, but it needs to be made.
    What if, say, Labour Councillors or supporters think, as @RochdalePioneers does I believe, that there is an essential core of the Labour Party and the current racist-empowering leadership does not represent it. Should they leave also? Should they give up the fight for "their" Labour, for the Labour Party that they have been members of for decades, and allow the racist-enablers to complete their takeover?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 34,291
    Scott_P said:
    That looks like a totally unbiased source.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 22,515
    edited September 7

    felix said:

    Floater said:

    Labour have been destroyed as a reasonable party.

    You stay in that filth then you are tainted by it.

    Spot on - I'm not sure we often agree [ although I may be muddling you with someone else] but this is completely correct. The majority of Labour MPs are tacitly supporting a leader they loathe and a party whose membership is now dominated in many areas by extremists from the far left whose views are basically the same as the current leadership. The UK could literally end up sleepwalking into a nightmare from which the wakening would be Venezuela! It really is time for them to act. If the Tories were led by Boris or worse my views on them would be similar.
    I don't agree with this at all, of course (and I'm far from convinced that either of you would vote Labour with its current programme even if we were led by the Archangel Gabriel).
    I think one factor that has thrown politics out of kilter is that many people voted Labour in 2017 simply because they saw it as a referendum on May/Brexit but don't back Corbyn's programme and wouldn't vote Labour again in a more typical election. The Labour extremists have misread the increase in vote share as an endorsement.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 7,957
    RobD said:

    Interesting initiative from the NY Times:

    Seems a bit pointless, the poll won't be useful until most of the responses are in.
    The initiative is useful for education and transparency, rather than in producing a specific result. (It might also give the polling industry more cause to worry about their 1 in 70 response rate...)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 19,990
    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:
    That looks like a totally unbiased source.
    With quotes, some of them quite old, taken way out of context.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 45,978
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    We'll see.

    The moderate frog is very nearly boiled. It can still leap out of the far left madness. Or it can stay, give its moral cowardice and feeble inaction the fig leaf label of 'loyalty' and consign the moderate left to the dustbin of history.

    At what point do the moderates say enough is enough? If not now, when? Is loyalty to a red rosette worth tolerating this, worth endorsing this?
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 1,988
    edited September 7


    Labour MPs have a choice. Do they want to support an anti-Semite quasi-Marxist cult take office after they have been deselected, or do they take action now and remove this threat to our country from the positions as Leader of the Opposition

    This (“anti-Semite quasi-marxist cult” ... “threat to our country”) really is hysterical nonsense. Were you in charge of the CCHQ twitter feed last time round?

    If/when Corbyn becomes PM, I predict he will not do as much damage to our country as Blair.

    In fact, I expect Corbyn with a constraining small majority won’t do much damage at all, and he will probably carry out a modest amount of good.

    I don’t have high expectations for a Corbyn PM, but to describe him as “a threat to the country” is just raving.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 9,293
    Labour is an utter mess. You can debate who is to blame, but the leadership are clearly responsible for fixing it. That is what leadership is. Corbyn could solve this very easily, but he doesn't.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 5,086


    The same thing may be necessary for the Tory party. I have nothing in common with Brexiters, they are economy crashers in the same way Corbyn is ,and large numbers (like Corbyn) are racists. The only real difference is their eyes swivel in the opposite direction.

    :+1: :+1: :+1:
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 15,074


    Labour MPs have a choice. Do they want to support an anti-Semite quasi-Marxist cult take office after they have been deselected, or do they take action now and remove this threat to our country from the positions as Leader of the Opposition

    This (“anti-Semite quasi-marxist cult” ... “threat to our country”) really is hysterical nonsense. Were you in charge of the CCHQ twitter feed last time round?

    If/when Corbyn becomes PM, I predict he will not do as much damage to our country as Blair.

    In fact, I expect Corbyn with a constraining small majority won’t do much damage at all, and he will probably carry out a modest amount of good.

    I don’t have high expectations for a Corbyn PM, but to describe him as “a threat to the country” is just raving.
    He is a threat because, with him as Prime Minister, racists and anti-semites will feel empowered. Now of course you won't notice any of this. But the people who sense that their Prime Minister is someone ambivalent towards certain minorities, will feel emboldened to make their racism less covert, and this will mean that in turn other people will decide that they can do the same thing ("if the lefties can openly hate the Jews, why shouldn't we openly hate the blacks?" would be an understandable call from the right).

    Again, I don't expect you to notice any of these things because you are probably neither black, nor a Jew, nor a member of a particularly put upon minority (and no I don't include the Welsh as one such) but its prospect is there nevertheless.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 45,978
    Mr. Foremain, Mrs C, could you point me to anything comparable between May and Corbyn or the Conservatives and Labour in that regard?

    Boris being an oaf (repeating, incidentally, a joke made by a Muslim woman in the Guardian) is not on a par with having Iran's state media livestream the deselection of an MP for not believing in the cult leader enough.

    The lack of reporting, to either the potential victims or the police, threats of violence is also very worrying. "But Brexit!" isn't an argument to justify the very dark place of the Labour leadership, or the party generally.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 4,339
    This is clear evidence of potential danger ahead for the Jewish community

    Direct from the mouth of McDonnell

  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 1,988
    TOPPING said:


    Labour MPs have a choice. Do they want to support an anti-Semite quasi-Marxist cult take office after they have been deselected, or do they take action now and remove this threat to our country from the positions as Leader of the Opposition

    This (“anti-Semite quasi-marxist cult” ... “threat to our country”) really is hysterical nonsense. Were you in charge of the CCHQ twitter feed last time round?

    If/when Corbyn becomes PM, I predict he will not do as much damage to our country as Blair.

    In fact, I expect Corbyn with a constraining small majority won’t do much damage at all, and he will probably carry out a modest amount of good.

    I don’t have high expectations for a Corbyn PM, but to describe him as “a threat to the country” is just raving.
    He is a threat because, with him as Prime Minister, racists and anti-semites will feel empowered. Now of course you won't notice any of this. But the people who sense that their Prime Minister is someone ambivalent towards certain minorities, will feel emboldened to make their racism less covert, and this will mean that in turn other people will decide that they can do the same thing ("if the lefties can openly hate the Jews, why shouldn't we openly hate the blacks?" would be an understandable call from the right).

    Again, I don't expect you to notice any of these things because you are probably neither black, nor a Jew, nor a member of a particularly put upon minority (and no I don't include the Welsh as one such) but its prospect is there nevertheless.
    I don’t think Jeremy Corbyn is any more of an anti-Semite than Albert Einstein.

    Einstein’s views of what should happen in Palestine (which are very thoroughly documented) are close to Corbyn’s views.

    Einstein specifically compared the actions of some right-wing Israeli terror groups to the Nazis.

    Your views on the Welsh are characteristically offensive. This is a country that is the poorest in Western Europe. Why is this?

    By what right do you set yourself up as a spokesman for the oppressed, and an arbiter of who is oppressed or not ? Let the oppressed speak for themselves.

    They certainly don’t need a monied, slandering Tory to speak false words on their behalf.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 6,107
    Scott_P said:
    LOL - Chuka will not make a move unless he is following everyone else.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 2,319
    The election night thread on here when Corbyn wins is going to be spectacular. A home counties version of Jonestown.
  • It is hard to find silver linings these days in pre Brexit Britain. My son has just told me that after graduating in architecture he plans to quit the UK. Apparently Fosters has just let go a large number of staff and is moving its head office to Madrid. As he has dual USA / UK passports he sees NYC as a better place to be for a few years.

    The only positive I can see is that the UK has become such a mess to the outside world that the EC no longer worries about any other country following the UK. As such it seems to be moving from punishment to damage limitation.

  • FloaterFloater Posts: 6,107
    Jonathan said:

    Labour is an utter mess. You can debate who is to blame, but the leadership are clearly responsible for fixing it. That is what leadership is. Corbyn could solve this very easily, but he doesn't.

    If only moderate Labour members had sat on their hands at the last election like they said they were going to do.....
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 6,107


    Labour MPs have a choice. Do they want to support an anti-Semite quasi-Marxist cult take office after they have been deselected, or do they take action now and remove this threat to our country from the positions as Leader of the Opposition

    This (“anti-Semite quasi-marxist cult” ... “threat to our country”) really is hysterical nonsense. Were you in charge of the CCHQ twitter feed last time round?

    If/when Corbyn becomes PM, I predict he will not do as much damage to our country as Blair.

    In fact, I expect Corbyn with a constraining small majority won’t do much damage at all, and he will probably carry out a modest amount of good.

    I don’t have high expectations for a Corbyn PM, but to describe him as “a threat to the country” is just raving.
    No, he is a threat - a real threat.

  • FloaterFloater Posts: 6,107
    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:
    That looks like a totally unbiased source.
    Were you talking about Scott P?
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 5,164
    edited September 7
    Dura_Ace said:

    The election night thread on here when Corbyn wins is going to be spectacular. A home counties version of Jonestown.

    And yet it's the Corbynistas who are drowning in the Kool-Aid.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 34,291

    It is hard to find silver linings these days in pre Brexit Britain. My son has just told me that after graduating in architecture he plans to quit the UK. Apparently Fosters has just let go a large number of staff and is moving its head office to Madrid. As he has dual USA / UK passports he sees NYC as a better place to be for a few years.

    The only positive I can see is that the UK has become such a mess to the outside world that the EC no longer worries about any other country following the UK. As such it seems to be moving from punishment to damage limitation.

    Surely other countries would wait to see how it plays out?
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 1,988
    Dura_Ace said:

    The election night thread on here when Corbyn wins is going to be spectacular. A home counties version of Jonestown.

    It certainly will be a night to remember on pb.

    I wonder if perhaps some of these very monied people shrieking about “threats to the country" are more worried about threats to their share portfolios.
This discussion has been closed.