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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Daily Mail’s change of tone Brexit should help Mrs May sel

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  • Matthew Parris: A second referendum could save us from disaster

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-second-referendum-could-save-us-from-disaster-nh0q97xj2

    You know I support TM getting a deal but if that failed or was voted down I would support a second referendum but I am far from certain how it would resolve anything, indeed it could make things worse

    One thing that has to happen - hard Brexit/WTO must be stopped by the HOC
    So if you support a second referendum if May's deal is defeated in Parliament, what do you think the question should be?
    I would assume the Electoral Commission or similar would be tasked with the wording but I assume it would be

    TM deal
    No deal
    Remain

    But I do not think remain would find it a walkover. Anything could happen and I have no idea how I would vote
  • Pagan said:

    But they are negotiating for the losing side for a start which shows not only arrogance on their part but a striking disdain for democracy.

    You can look at it that way if you wish, but you can also look at it that they are concerned that paralysis in the govt will result in a Hard/WTO crash Brexit and no one (except the swivel-eyed brigade) wants that. So, how to minimise a car-crash Brexit? Ask officials to consider the options beforehand. If Brexit fails or becomes BINO or an agreement is reached then no harm done....
    Pagan said:

    They should be told in no uncertain terms to shove off

    And leave no one to speak for Britain?
    Pagan said:

    and the fact the EU is cooperating with them tells us all we need to know about the EU.

    Yes. It tells us that the EU does not want car-crash Brexit either.
    Pagan said:

    I am sure remainers like yourself would soon complain if Boris, Gove and Farage went to negotiate as private individuals.

    It would not bother me. Look how effective they have been in their official capacity. I am sure that in their private capacity they would be no better.

    :D:D:D:D
    Anthony Charles Lynton Blair? Seriously?
    I would rather the govt spoke for us, but to date .....
    You're trolling us, right?
    You would rather that the UK's two year silence on Brexit continues? Just sail off the cliff on March 29th?

    DO nothing until it is too late? That's your preferred approach and YOU ask if I'm trolling????

    Comedy gold!
    Do you mind me asking if you follow the news? I'm sure I've heard a few people close to the Brexit negotiations suggesting a deal can be done in the next 8 weeks. Maybe you know different?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,079
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20

    Very symbolic.
    Maybe wishful thinking but I feel this is just going to give ammunition to any future LD or Tory election campaign.
    And SNP
    The SNP and Corbynites both hate Blair, ironically he is probably now more popular in Cable's LDs and even with Cameroon Tories than with them
    It was opposition to Blairite warmongering that led to the electoral success in the nineties and loads of new members.

    Blair is not popular with LDs.
    Correction, Blair was not popular with LDs.

    However most of the leftwing, sandal wearing LDs who were part of the party when Charles Kennedy led it on a left of New Labour, anti Iraq War platform have now defected to Corbyn Labour.


    The LDs who remain under Vince Cable are economically centrist and pro EU, they more than Corbyn Labour or the Tories are the true carriers of the Blairite torch now of the 3 main UK wide parties
    Bollocks.

    I am an LD, and you are not. Blairism and centrism are not synonymous.

    I have never heard Blair positively described at an LD meeting.
  • Matthew Parris: A second referendum could save us from disaster

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-second-referendum-could-save-us-from-disaster-nh0q97xj2

    You know I support TM getting a deal but if that failed or was voted down I would support a second referendum but I am far from certain how it would resolve anything, indeed it could make things worse

    One thing that has to happen - hard Brexit/WTO must be stopped by the HOC
    So if you support a second referendum if May's deal is defeated in Parliament, what do you think the question should be?
    I would assume the Electoral Commission or similar would be tasked with the wording but I assume it would be

    TM deal
    No deal
    Remain

    But I do not think remain would find it a walkover. Anything could happen and I have no idea how I would vote
    So you think a referendum should be a 3 choice question. Would 34% for any of the 3 options be enough to win? If not, what do you think the rules should be?
  • Pagan said:

    But they are negotiating for the losing side for a start which shows not only arrogance on their part but a striking disdain for democracy.

    You can look at it that way if you wish, but you can also look at it that they are concerned that paralysis in the govt will result in a Hard/WTO crash Brexit and no one (except the swivel-eyed brigade) wants that. So, how to minimise a car-crash Brexit? Ask officials to consider the options beforehand. If Brexit fails or becomes BINO or an agreement is reached then no harm done....
    Pagan said:

    They should be told in no uncertain terms to shove off

    And leave no one to speak for Britain?
    Pagan said:

    and the fact the EU is cooperating with them tells us all we need to know about the EU.

    Yes. It tells us that the EU does not want car-crash Brexit either.
    Pagan said:

    I am sure remainers like yourself would soon complain if Boris, Gove and Farage went to negotiate as private individuals.

    It would not bother me. Look how effective they have been in their official capacity. I am sure that in their private capacity they would be no better.

    :D:D:D:D
    Anthony Charles Lynton Blair? Seriously?
    I would rather the govt spoke for us, but to date .....
    You're trolling us, right?
    You would rather that the UK's two year silence on Brexit continues? Just sail off the cliff on March 29th?

    DO nothing until it is too late? That's your preferred approach and YOU ask if I'm trolling????

    Comedy gold!
    Do you mind me asking if you follow the news? I'm sure I've heard a few people close to the Brexit negotiations suggesting a deal can be done in the next 8 weeks. Maybe you know different?
    Barnier said 6 - 8 weeks and it has been suggested the November Council Meeting will agree the deal and TM will sign it subject to the UK approval with Tusk and Juncker
  • Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20

    Very symbolic.
    Maybe wishful thinking but I feel this is just going to give ammunition to any future LD or Tory election campaign.
    And SNP
    The SNP and Corbynites both hate Blair, ironically he is probably now more popular in Cable's LDs and even with Cameroon Tories than with them
    It was opposition to Blairite warmongering that led to the electoral success in the nineties and loads of new members.

    Blair is not popular with LDs.
    Correction, Blair was not popular with LDs.

    However most of the leftwing, sandal wearing LDs who were part of the party when Charles Kennedy led it on a left of New Labour, anti Iraq War platform have now defected to Corbyn Labour.


    The LDs who remain under Vince Cable are economically centrist and pro EU, they more than Corbyn Labour or the Tories are the true carriers of the Blairite torch now of the 3 main UK wide parties
    Bollocks.

    I am an LD, and you are not. Blairism and centrism are not synonymous.

    I have never heard Blair positively described at an LD meeting.
    I suspect Mr Ashdown described Blair positively at LD meetings, until he discovered how imprecise he could be.
  • Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20

    Very symbolic.
    Maybe wishful thinking but I feel this is just going to give ammunition to any future LD or Tory election campaign.
    And SNP
    The SNP and Corbynites both hate Blair, ironically he is probably now more popular in Cable's LDs and even with Cameroon Tories than with them
    It was opposition to Blairite warmongering that led to the electoral success in the nineties and loads of new members.

    Blair is not popular with LDs.
    Correction, Blair was not popular with LDs.

    However most of the leftwing, sandal wearing LDs who were part of the party when Charles Kennedy led it on a left of New Labour, anti Iraq War platform have now defected to Corbyn Labour.


    The LDs who remain under Vince Cable are economically centrist and pro EU, they more than Corbyn Labour or the Tories are the true carriers of the Blairite torch now of the 3 main UK wide parties
    Bollocks.

    I am an LD, and you are not. Blairism and centrism are not synonymous.

    I have never heard Blair positively described at an LD meeting.
    I thought you were converted to the cult Dr Fox
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    Matthew Parris: A second referendum could save us from disaster

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-second-referendum-could-save-us-from-disaster-nh0q97xj2

    You know I support TM getting a deal but if that failed or was voted down I would support a second referendum but I am far from certain how it would resolve anything, indeed it could make things worse

    One thing that has to happen - hard Brexit/WTO must be stopped by the HOC
    So if you support a second referendum if May's deal is defeated in Parliament, what do you think the question should be?
    I have become jaded enough to believe that a 2nd referendum would simply go for WTO Brexit thus making only one outcome possible.

    The future looks depressing and on that black note I think I have had more than enough future gloom for one day....
  • Matthew Parris: A second referendum could save us from disaster

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-second-referendum-could-save-us-from-disaster-nh0q97xj2

    You know I support TM getting a deal but if that failed or was voted down I would support a second referendum but I am far from certain how it would resolve anything, indeed it could make things worse

    One thing that has to happen - hard Brexit/WTO must be stopped by the HOC
    So if you support a second referendum if May's deal is defeated in Parliament, what do you think the question should be?
    I would assume the Electoral Commission or similar would be tasked with the wording but I assume it would be

    TM deal
    No deal
    Remain

    But I do not think remain would find it a walkover. Anything could happen and I have no idea how I would vote
    So you think a referendum should be a 3 choice question. Would 34% for any of the 3 options be enough to win? If not, what do you think the rules should be?
    That is for some one better qualified than me but would expect a winning margin would be needed with votes on preferences
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited September 2018
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20

    Very symbolic.
    Maybe wishful thinking but I feel this is just going to give ammunition to any future LD or Tory election campaign.
    And SNP
    The SNP and Corbynites both hate Blair, ironically he is probably now more popular in Cable's LDs and even with Cameroon Tories than with them
    It was opposition to Blairite warmongering that led to the electoral success in the nineties and loads of new members.

    Blair is not popular with LDs.
    Correction, Blair was not popular with LDs.

    However most of the leftwing, sandal wearing LDs who were part of the party when Charles Kennedy led it on a left of New Labour, anti Iraq War platform have now defected to Corbyn Labour.


    The LDs who remain under Vince Cable are economically centrist and pro EU, they more than Corbyn Labour or the Tories are the true carriers of the Blairite torch now of the 3 main UK wide parties
    Bollocks.

    I am an LD, and you are not. Blairism and centrism are not synonymous.

    I have never heard Blair positively described at an LD meeting.
    No, not bollocks at all, indeed a recent Opinium poll had LD voters the only voters who gave libertarianism a net positive rating, the leftwing even socialist LDs who were in the party a decade or two ago have now largely defected en masse to Labour.

    Certainly many of the current LD voters may well have even voted for Blair in 2001 and 2005, while large numbers of current Corbyn Labour voters will have voted LD at those same general elections.


    The highest praise for Blair from any party leader before the last general election came from Tim Farron


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37410525
  • Matthew Parris: A second referendum could save us from disaster

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-second-referendum-could-save-us-from-disaster-nh0q97xj2

    You know I support TM getting a deal but if that failed or was voted down I would support a second referendum but I am far from certain how it would resolve anything, indeed it could make things worse

    One thing that has to happen - hard Brexit/WTO must be stopped by the HOC
    So if you support a second referendum if May's deal is defeated in Parliament, what do you think the question should be?
    I would assume the Electoral Commission or similar would be tasked with the wording but I assume it would be

    TM deal
    No deal
    Remain

    But I do not think remain would find it a walkover. Anything could happen and I have no idea how I would vote
    There is no such thing as Remain, only ever closer union or disintegration.
    There is remain and the HOC can pass emergency legislation if needs be.

    However I want to leave under TM deal
  • Matthew Parris: A second referendum could save us from disaster

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-second-referendum-could-save-us-from-disaster-nh0q97xj2

    You know I support TM getting a deal but if that failed or was voted down I would support a second referendum but I am far from certain how it would resolve anything, indeed it could make things worse

    One thing that has to happen - hard Brexit/WTO must be stopped by the HOC
    So if you support a second referendum if May's deal is defeated in Parliament, what do you think the question should be?
    I have become jaded enough to believe that a 2nd referendum would simply go for WTO Brexit thus making only one outcome possible.

    The future looks depressing and on that black note I think I have had more than enough future gloom for one day....

    Matthew Parris: A second referendum could save us from disaster

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-second-referendum-could-save-us-from-disaster-nh0q97xj2

    You know I support TM getting a deal but if that failed or was voted down I would support a second referendum but I am far from certain how it would resolve anything, indeed it could make things worse

    One thing that has to happen - hard Brexit/WTO must be stopped by the HOC
    So if you support a second referendum if May's deal is defeated in Parliament, what do you think the question should be?
    I would assume the Electoral Commission or similar would be tasked with the wording but I assume it would be

    TM deal
    No deal
    Remain

    But I do not think remain would find it a walkover. Anything could happen and I have no idea how I would vote
    So you think a referendum should be a 3 choice question. Would 34% for any of the 3 options be enough to win? If not, what do you think the rules should be?
    That is for some one better qualified than me but would expect a winning margin would be needed with votes on preferences
    Any chance of any of that being agreed in Parliament in the next 6 months?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20

    Very symbolic.
    Maybe wishful thinking but I feel this is just going to give ammunition to any future LD or Tory election campaign.
    And SNP
    The SNP and Corbynites both hate Blair, ironically he is probably now more popular in Cable's LDs and even with Cameroon Tories than with them
    You underestimate the dislike the SNP have for labour
    The SNP activists don't mind Corbyn so much, it is the Tories, the LDs and New Labour they hated. Though Sturgeon is more social democratic than socialist
    Thank you for your keen insight into the minds of SNP activists.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,079
    edited September 2018

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20

    Very symbolic.
    Maybe wishful thinking but I feel this is just going to give ammunition to any future LD or Tory election campaign.
    And SNP
    The SNP and Corbynites both hate Blair, ironically he is probably now more popular in Cable's LDs and even with Cameroon Tories than with them
    It was opposition to Blairite warmongering that led to the electoral success in the nineties and loads of new members.

    Blair is not popular with LDs.
    Correction, Blair was not popular with LDs.

    However most of the leftwing, sandal wearing LDs who were part of the party when Charles Kennedy led it on a left of New Labour, anti Iraq War platform have now defected to Corbyn Labour.


    The LDs who remain under Vince Cable are economically centrist and pro EU, they more than Corbyn Labour or the Tories are the true carriers of the Blairite torch now of the 3 main UK wide parties
    Bollocks.

    I am an LD, and you are not. Blairism and centrism are not synonymous.

    I have never heard Blair positively described at an LD meeting.
    I thought you were converted to the cult Dr Fox
    No, I am an Lib Dem.

    There are aspects of Corbyn that I like and aspects that I dislike. There are politicians in each party that I would vote for, and others that I wouldn't touch with a bargepole. I quite like Phil Hammond for example, but also Jess Phillips.

    Politically I am closest to Norman Lamb, and voted for him in the last LD leadership election.
  • Matthew Parris: A second referendum could save us from disaster

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-second-referendum-could-save-us-from-disaster-nh0q97xj2

    You know I support TM getting a deal but if that failed or was voted down I would support a second referendum but I am far from certain how it would resolve anything, indeed it could make things worse

    One thing that has to happen - hard Brexit/WTO must be stopped by the HOC
    So if you support a second referendum if May's deal is defeated in Parliament, what do you think the question should be?
    I have become jaded enough to believe that a 2nd referendum would simply go for WTO Brexit thus making only one outcome possible.

    The future looks depressing and on that black note I think I have had more than enough future gloom for one day....

    Matthew Parris: A second referendum could save us from disaster

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-second-referendum-could-save-us-from-disaster-nh0q97xj2

    You know I support TM getting a deal but if that failed or was voted down I would support a second referendum but I am far from certain how it would resolve anything, indeed it could make things worse

    One thing that has to happen - hard Brexit/WTO must be stopped by the HOC
    So if you support a second referendum if May's deal is defeated in Parliament, what do you think the question should be?
    I would assume the Electoral Commission or similar would be tasked with the wording but I assume it would be

    TM deal
    No deal
    Remain

    But I do not think remain would find it a walkover. Anything could happen and I have no idea how I would vote
    So you think a referendum should be a 3 choice question. Would 34% for any of the 3 options be enough to win? If not, what do you think the rules should be?
    That is for some one better qualified than me but would expect a winning margin would be needed with votes on preferences
    Any chance of any of that being agreed in Parliament in the next 6 months?
    In a national emergency yes.

    Remember there is a huge remain bias in the HOC and overwhelmimg in the HOL.

    Someone said on here yesterday that emergency legislation was pased in 24 hours at one time
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20

    Very symbolic.
    Maybe wishful thinking but I feel this is just going to give ammunition to any future LD or Tory election campaign.
    And SNP
    The SNP and Corbynites both hate Blair, ironically he is probably now more popular in Cable's LDs and even with Cameroon Tories than with them
    It was opposition to Blairite warmongering that led to the electoral success in the nineties and loads of new members.

    Blair is not popular with LDs.
    Correction, Blair was not popular with LDs.

    However most of the leftwing, sandal wearing LDs who were part of the party when Charles Kennedy led it on a left of New Labour, anti Iraq War platform have now defected to Corbyn Labour.


    The LDs who remain under Vince Cable are economically centrist and pro EU, they more than Corbyn Labour or the Tories are the true carriers of the Blairite torch now of the 3 main UK wide parties
    I'd imagine that there was no home for economics minded ex-LDs. Both Labour and Vince are well left of anything that used to be regarded as economics middle ground. The Tories are a sort of blurry 'wet' type view. There's no solace elsewhere.

    Gordo was on the radio this morning telling us how he saved the world, and how he fears for the future. He's right to be fearful, but it's all his unnecessary debt. He wants to prosecute bankers, but somehow he goes unpunished - no mention of accountants, auditors, and most particularly ratings agencies and regulators. Another major financial crisis and we're in serious problems - just because of Gordo's borrowing. It's sort of weird that Carney doesn't flag these issues.

  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20

    Very symbolic.
    Maybe wishful thinking but I feel this is just going to give ammunition to any future LD or Tory election campaign.
    And SNP
    The SNP and Corbynites both hate Blair, ironically he is probably now more popular in Cable's LDs and even with Cameroon Tories than with them
    It was opposition to Blairite warmongering that led to the electoral success in the nineties and loads of new members.

    Blair is not popular with LDs.
    Correction, Blair was not popular with LDs.

    However most of the leftwing, sandal wearing LDs who were part of the party when Charles Kennedy led it on a left of New Labour, anti Iraq War platform have now defected to Corbyn Labour.


    The LDs who remain under Vince Cable are economically centrist and pro EU, they more than Corbyn Labour or the Tories are the true carriers of the Blairite torch now of the 3 main UK wide parties
    Bollocks.

    I am an LD, and you are not. Blairism and centrism are not synonymous.

    I have never heard Blair positively described at an LD meeting.
    I thought you were converted to the cult Dr Fox
    No, I am an Lib Dem.

    There are aspects of Corbyn that I like and aspects that I dislike. There are politicians in each party that I would vote for, and others that I wouldn't touch with a bargepole. I quite like Phil Hammond for example, but also Jess Phillips.

    Politically I am closest to Norman Lamb, and voted for him in the last LD leadership election.
    I like all three of those politicians even if Hammond is dull and not PM material
  • Pagan said:

    But they are negotiating for the losing side for a start which shows not only arrogance on their part but a striking disdain for democracy.

    You can look at it that way if you wish, but you can also look at it that they are concerned that paralysis in the govt will result in a Hard/WTO crash Brexit and no one (except the swivel-eyed brigade) wants that. So, how to minimise a car-crash Brexit? Ask officials to consider the options beforehand. If Brexit fails or becomes BINO or an agreement is reached then no harm done....
    Pagan said:

    They should be told in no uncertain terms to shove off

    And leave no one to speak for Britain?
    Pagan said:

    and the fact the EU is cooperating with them tells us all we need to know about the EU.

    Yes. It tells us that the EU does not want car-crash Brexit either.
    Pagan said:

    I am sure remainers like yourself would soon complain if Boris, Gove and Farage went to negotiate as private individuals.

    It would not bother me. Look how effective they have been in their official capacity. I am sure that in their private capacity they would be no better.

    :D:D:D:D
    Anthony Charles Lynton Blair? Seriously?
    This story has made me ponder how no living former PM or Dep PM (Cam, Brown, Blair, Clegg and Major) has taken the presumably-available peerage. Can’t imagine that’s happened before... and probably a sign of the more interesting life to be led away from the Village. Until a self-appointed mission comes along :)

  • Matthew Parris: A second referendum could save us from disaster

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-second-referendum-could-save-us-from-disaster-nh0q97xj2

    You know I support TM getting a deal but if that failed or was voted down I would support a second referendum but I am far from certain how it would resolve anything, indeed it could make things worse

    One thing that has to happen - hard Brexit/WTO must be stopped by the HOC
    So if you support a second referendum if May's deal is defeated in Parliament, what do you think the question should be?
    I would assume the Electoral Commission or similar would be tasked with the wording but I assume it would be

    TM deal
    No deal
    Remain

    But I do not think remain would find it a walkover. Anything could happen and I have no idea how I would vote
    There is no such thing as Remain, only ever closer union or disintegration.
    There is remain and the HOC can pass emergency legislation if needs be.

    However I want to leave under TM deal
    Remain is a deceit that tries to pretend that the EU will freeze in time and never change.
    Any future question must be about joining a european nation, and giving up notions of Britain/UK as a country.
    Maybe, but remain carries a large body of opinion and that is why leave is such a struggle
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    Matthew Parris: A second referendum could save us from disaster

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-second-referendum-could-save-us-from-disaster-nh0q97xj2

    You know I support TM getting a deal but if that failed or was voted down I would support a second referendum but I am far from certain how it would resolve anything, indeed it could make things worse

    One thing that has to happen - hard Brexit/WTO must be stopped by the HOC
    So if you support a second referendum if May's deal is defeated in Parliament, what do you think the question should be?
    I would assume the Electoral Commission or similar would be tasked with the wording but I assume it would be

    TM deal
    No deal
    Remain

    But I do not think remain would find it a walkover. Anything could happen and I have no idea how I would vote
    There is no such thing as Remain, only ever closer union or disintegration.
    There is remain and the HOC can pass emergency legislation if needs be.

    However I want to leave under TM deal
    Remain is a deceit that tries to pretend that the EU will freeze in time and never change.
    Any future question must be about joining a european nation, and giving up notions of Britain/UK as a country.
    +1
  • Matthew Parris: A second referendum could save us from disaster

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-second-referendum-could-save-us-from-disaster-nh0q97xj2

    You know I support TM getting a deal but if that failed or was voted down I would support a second referendum but I am far from certain how it would resolve anything, indeed it could make things worse

    One thing that has to happen - hard Brexit/WTO must be stopped by the HOC
    So if you support a second referendum if May's deal is defeated in Parliament, what do you think the question should be?
    I have become jaded enough to believe that a 2nd referendum would simply go for WTO Brexit thus making only one outcome possible.

    The future looks depressing and on that black note I think I have had more than enough future gloom for one day....

    Matthew Parris: A second referendum could save us from disaster

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-second-referendum-could-save-us-from-disaster-nh0q97xj2

    You know I support TM getting a deal but if that failed or was voted down I would support a second referendum but I am far from certain how it would resolve anything, indeed it could make things worse

    One thing that has to happen - hard Brexit/WTO must be stopped by the HOC
    So if you support a second referendum if May's deal is defeated in Parliament, what do you think the question should be?
    I would assume the Electoral Commission or similar would be tasked with the wording but I assume it would be

    TM deal
    No deal
    Remain

    But I do not think remain would find it a walkover. Anything could happen and I have no idea how I would vote
    So you think a referendum should be a 3 choice question. Would 34% for any of the 3 options be enough to win? If not, what do you think the rules should be?
    That is for some one better qualified than me but would expect a winning margin would be needed with votes on preferences
    Any chance of any of that being agreed in Parliament in the next 6 months?
    In a national emergency yes.

    Remember there is a huge remain bias in the HOC and overwhelmimg in the HOL.

    Someone said on here yesterday that emergency legislation was pased in 24 hours at one time
    What National Emergency?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,079

    Matthew Parris: A second referendum could save us from disaster

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-second-referendum-could-save-us-from-disaster-nh0q97xj2

    You know I support TM getting a deal but if that failed or was voted down I would support a second referendum but I am far from certain how it would resolve anything, indeed it could make things worse

    One thing that has to happen - hard Brexit/WTO must be stopped by the HOC
    So if you support a second referendum if May's deal is defeated in Parliament, what do you think the question should be?
    I would assume the Electoral Commission or similar would be tasked with the wording but I assume it would be

    TM deal
    No deal
    Remain

    But I do not think remain would find it a walkover. Anything could happen and I have no idea how I would vote
    There is no such thing as Remain, only ever closer union or disintegration.
    There is remain and the HOC can pass emergency legislation if needs be.

    However I want to leave under TM deal
    Remain is a deceit that tries to pretend that the EU will freeze in time and never change.
    Any future question must be about joining a european nation, and giving up notions of Britain/UK as a country.
    Maybe, but remain carries a large body of opinion and that is why leave is such a struggle
    One striking aspect politically of the last 2 years is the fervour for the EU in the country. Certainly a minority, as are the radical brexiteers, but a level of public support for the EU not seen since the 1975 referendum.

    The June rally in London and the forthcoming ones at the Labour and Tory Conferences, as well as the October 20 London one give me hope for the future of our country.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265
    Omnium said:



    Labour have people that have misjudged the line in the past. It's so easy to just say that. Corbyn now probably wouldn't wish to meet with terrorists - he may have done so in the past, but that was misjudged if he did. Trying to defend every past action as if it was one you'd make the same decision on now is just lunacy.

    Worse still trying to gloss over the stupid stuff actually means that anyone truly anti-semitic gets cover.

    Israel is in my view a state that stands for good things. It's full of mad people, but they're good people.

    Palestine I guess is much the same, apart from their leaders.

    Slightly to my surprise, I agree with all of that.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    Omnium said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20

    Very symbolic.
    Maybe wishful thinking but I feel this is just going to give ammunition to any future LD or Tory election campaign.
    And SNP
    The SNP and Corbynites both hate Blair, ironically he is probably now more popular in Cable's LDs and even with Cameroon Tories than with them
    It was opposition to Blairite warmongering that led to the electoral success in the nineties and loads of new members.

    Blair is not popular with LDs.
    Correction, Blair was not popular with LDs.

    However most of the leftwing, sandal wearing LDs who were part of the party when Charles Kennedy led it on a left of New Labour, anti Iraq War platform have now defected to Corbyn Labour.


    The LDs who remain under Vince Cable are economically centrist and pro EU, they more than Corbyn Labour or the Tories are the true carriers of the Blairite torch now of the 3 main UK wide parties
    I'd imagine that there was no home for economics minded ex-LDs. Both Labour and Vince are well left of anything that used to be regarded as economics middle ground. The Tories are a sort of blurry 'wet' type view. There's no solace elsewhere.

    Gordo was on the radio this morning telling us how he saved the world, and how he fears for the future. He's right to be fearful, but it's all his unnecessary debt. He wants to prosecute bankers, but somehow he goes unpunished - no mention of accountants, auditors, and most particularly ratings agencies and regulators. Another major financial crisis and we're in serious problems - just because of Gordo's borrowing. It's sort of weird that Carney doesn't flag these issues.

    The LDs under Cable are certainly more economically hard headed than they were under Charles Kennedy, Cable was of course an Orange Booker. There are also still plenty of libertarian Thatcherites in the Tories like Hannan and Redwood.

    Brown of course bailed out every Bank that asked, even George W Bush left Lehmans go under
  • Matthew Parris: A second referendum could save us from disaster

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-second-referendum-could-save-us-from-disaster-nh0q97xj2

    You know I support TM getting a deal but if that failed or was voted down I would support a second referendum but I am far from certain how it would resolve anything, indeed it could make things worse

    One thing that has to happen - hard Brexit/WTO must be stopped by the HOC
    So if you support a second referendum if May's deal is defeated in Parliament, what do you think the question should be?
    I would assume the Electoral Commission or similar would be tasked with the wording but I assume it would be

    TM deal
    No deal
    Remain

    But I do not think remain would find it a walkover. Anything could happen and I have no idea how I would vote
    There is no such thing as Remain, only ever closer union or disintegration.
    There is remain and the HOC can pass emergency legislation if needs be.

    However I want to leave under TM deal
    Remain is a deceit that tries to pretend that the EU will freeze in time and never change.
    Any future question must be about joining a european nation, and giving up notions of Britain/UK as a country.
    What about England?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    I’ve had my surgery and I’m still alive... So fantastic news!

    Excellent news.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265
    HYUFD said:

    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20

    Two out of 650 CLPs proposing anything aren't going to get anywhere...
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20

    Very symbolic.
    Maybe wishful thinking but I feel this is just going to give ammunition to any future LD or Tory election campaign.
    And SNP
    The SNP and Corbynites both hate Blair, ironically he is probably now more popular in Cable's LDs and even with Cameroon Tories than with them
    It was opposition to Blairite warmongering that led to the electoral success in the nineties and loads of new members.

    Blair is not popular with LDs.
    Correction, Blair was not popular with LDs.

    However most of the leftwing, sandal wearing LDs who were part of the party when Charles Kennedy led it on a left of New Labour, anti Iraq War platform have now defected to Corbyn Labour.


    The LDs who remain under Vince Cable are economically centrist and pro EU, they more than Corbyn Labour or the Tories are the true carriers of the Blairite torch now of the 3 main UK wide parties
    Bollocks.

    I am an LD, and you are not. Blairism and centrism are not synonymous.

    I have never heard Blair positively described at an LD meeting.
    I mentioned Blair at a LD meeting when I was trying to make a point about ideological purity vs getting things done.

    It was not well recieved which disheartened me.
  • Times tomorrow

    M16 believed Michael Foot was a paid Soviet informant
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Matthew Parris: A second referendum could save us from disaster

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-second-referendum-could-save-us-from-disaster-nh0q97xj2

    You know I support TM getting a deal but if that failed or was voted down I would support a second referendum but I am far from certain how it would resolve anything, indeed it could make things worse

    One thing that has to happen - hard Brexit/WTO must be stopped by the HOC
    So if you support a second referendum if May's deal is defeated in Parliament, what do you think the question should be?
    I would assume the Electoral Commission or similar would be tasked with the wording but I assume it would be

    TM deal
    No deal
    Remain

    But I do not think remain would find it a walkover. Anything could happen and I have no idea how I would vote
    There is no such thing as Remain, only ever closer union or disintegration.
    There is remain and the HOC can pass emergency legislation if needs be.

    However I want to leave under TM deal
    Remain is a deceit that tries to pretend that the EU will freeze in time and never change.
    Any future question must be about joining a european nation, and giving up notions of Britain/UK as a country.
    What about England?
    No doubt to be abolished in favour of a Euroregion.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265
    Sandpit said:

    GIN1138 said:

    I’ll be in hospital for up to 10 days so plenty of free time to argue about Brexit, pizza toppings and Palestine and Israel. :smiley:

    Good luck. Hope everything goes well for you. :)
    Seconded. Hope the recovery goes well Mr @Gallowgate.
    +1 - all the very best.
  • RobD said:

    Matthew Parris: A second referendum could save us from disaster

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-second-referendum-could-save-us-from-disaster-nh0q97xj2

    You know I support TM getting a deal but if that failed or was voted down I would support a second referendum but I am far from certain how it would resolve anything, indeed it could make things worse

    One thing that has to happen - hard Brexit/WTO must be stopped by the HOC
    So if you support a second referendum if May's deal is defeated in Parliament, what do you think the question should be?
    I would assume the Electoral Commission or similar would be tasked with the wording but I assume it would be

    TM deal
    No deal
    Remain

    But I do not think remain would find it a walkover. Anything could happen and I have no idea how I would vote
    There is no such thing as Remain, only ever closer union or disintegration.
    There is remain and the HOC can pass emergency legislation if needs be.

    However I want to leave under TM deal
    Remain is a deceit that tries to pretend that the EU will freeze in time and never change.
    Any future question must be about joining a european nation, and giving up notions of Britain/UK as a country.
    What about England?
    No doubt to be abolished in favour of a Euroregion.
    What is there to be abolished?
  • Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20

    Very symbolic.
    Maybe wishful thinking but I feel this is just going to give ammunition to any future LD or Tory election campaign.
    And SNP
    The SNP and Corbynites both hate Blair, ironically he is probably now more popular in Cable's LDs and even with Cameroon Tories than with them
    It was opposition to Blairite warmongering that led to the electoral success in the nineties and loads of new members.

    Blair is not popular with LDs.
    Correction, Blair was not popular with LDs.

    However most of the leftwing, sandal wearing LDs who were part of the party when Charles Kennedy led it on a left of New Labour, anti Iraq War platform have now defected to Corbyn Labour.


    The LDs who remain under Vince Cable are economically centrist and pro EU, they more than Corbyn Labour or the Tories are the true carriers of the Blairite torch now of the 3 main UK wide parties
    Bollocks.

    I am an LD, and you are not. Blairism and centrism are not synonymous.

    I have never heard Blair positively described at an LD meeting.
    I mentioned Blair at a LD meeting when I was trying to make a point about ideological purity vs getting things done.

    It was not well recieved which disheartened me.
    Get well soon Gallowgate!
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688

    Omnium said:



    Labour have people that have misjudged the line in the past. It's so easy to just say that. Corbyn now probably wouldn't wish to meet with terrorists - he may have done so in the past, but that was misjudged if he did. Trying to defend every past action as if it was one you'd make the same decision on now is just lunacy.

    Worse still trying to gloss over the stupid stuff actually means that anyone truly anti-semitic gets cover.

    Israel is in my view a state that stands for good things. It's full of mad people, but they're good people.

    Palestine I guess is much the same, apart from their leaders.

    Slightly to my surprise, I agree with all of that.

    Thanks very much for saying so.

    Do let's agree more often :)

  • Omnium said:

    Omnium said:



    Labour have people that have misjudged the line in the past. It's so easy to just say that. Corbyn now probably wouldn't wish to meet with terrorists - he may have done so in the past, but that was misjudged if he did. Trying to defend every past action as if it was one you'd make the same decision on now is just lunacy.

    Worse still trying to gloss over the stupid stuff actually means that anyone truly anti-semitic gets cover.

    Israel is in my view a state that stands for good things. It's full of mad people, but they're good people.

    Palestine I guess is much the same, apart from their leaders.

    Slightly to my surprise, I agree with all of that.

    Thanks very much for saying so.

    Do let's agree more often :)

    I think we should all aim for more of that
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    edited September 2018

    Times tomorrow

    M16 believed Michael Foot was a paid Soviet informant

    When I hear of these stories, I wonder what he could offer in terms of information they could not get from any other operative. I suppose he would have been privy council but that would not mean automatic access to anything the Soviets might find interesting at that time. I will look out for this story and read it as I would be interested to see if it reflected a period when he was not LOTO. I think Corbyn and Wilson were suggested as being agents at various points in the past.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,079

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20

    Very symbolic.
    Maybe wishful thinking but I feel this is just going to give ammunition to any future LD or Tory election campaign.
    And SNP
    The SNP and Corbynites both hate Blair, ironically he is probably now more popular in Cable's LDs and even with Cameroon Tories than with them
    It was opposition to Blairite warmongering that led to the electoral success in the nineties and loads of new members.

    Blair is not popular with LDs.
    Correction, Blair was not popular with LDs.

    However most of the leftwing, sandal wearing LDs who were part of the party when Charles Kennedy led it on a left of New Labour, anti Iraq War platform have now defected to Corbyn Labour.


    The LDs who remain under Vince Cable are economically centrist and pro EU, they more than Corbyn Labour or the Tories are the true carriers of the Blairite torch now of the 3 main UK wide parties
    Bollocks.

    I am an LD, and you are not. Blairism and centrism are not synonymous.

    I have never heard Blair positively described at an LD meeting.
    I thought you were converted to the cult Dr Fox
    No, I am an Lib Dem.

    There are aspects of Corbyn that I like and aspects that I dislike. There are politicians in each party that I would vote for, and others that I wouldn't touch with a bargepole. I quite like Phil Hammond for example, but also Jess Phillips.

    Politically I am closest to Norman Lamb, and voted for him in the last LD leadership election.
    I like all three of those politicians even if Hammond is dull and not PM material
    I quite like my politicians a little dull (not that Jess Phillips is! ) and have a longstanding suspicion of charismatic leaders.

    Charisma very often is a cover for vacuity and shallow emotionalism. Rhetoric and self promotion are the mark of a con man. It may help win elections, but it nearly always means failure in office. Give me a dull administrator who knows how to get things done, like Attlee, any day.

    Of course dullness on its own is not enough, as we see in Mrs May,
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20

    Very symbolic.
    Maybe wishful thinking but I feel this is just going to give ammunition to any future LD or Tory election campaign.
    And SNP
    The SNP and Corbynites both hate Blair, ironically he is probably now more popular in Cable's LDs and even with Cameroon Tories than with them
    It was opposition to Blairite warmongering that led to the electoral success in the nineties and loads of new members.

    Blair is not popular with LDs.
    Correction, Blair was not popular with LDs.

    However most of the leftwing, sandal wearing LDs who were part of the party when Charles Kennedy led it on a left of New Labour, anti Iraq War platform have now defected to Corbyn Labour.


    The LDs who remain under Vince Cable are economically centrist and pro EU, they more than Corbyn Labour or the Tories are the true carriers of the Blairite torch now of the 3 main UK wide parties
    Bollocks.

    I am an LD, and you are not. Blairism and centrism are not synonymous.

    I have never heard Blair positively described at an LD meeting.
    I thought you were converted to the cult Dr Fox
    No, I am an Lib Dem.

    There are aspects of Corbyn that I like and aspects that I dislike. There are politicians in each party that I would vote for, and others that I wouldn't touch with a bargepole. I quite like Phil Hammond for example, but also Jess Phillips.

    Politically I am closest to Norman Lamb, and voted for him in the last LD leadership election.
    I like all three of those politicians even if Hammond is dull and not PM material
    I quite like my politicians a little dull (not that Jess Phillips is! ) and have a longstanding suspicion of charismatic leaders.

    Charisma very often is a cover for vacuity and shallow emotionalism. Rhetoric and self promotion are the mark of a con man. It may help win elections, but it nearly always means failure in office. Give me a dull administrator who knows how to get things done, like Attlee, any day.

    Of course dullness on its own is not enough, as we see in Mrs May,
    It is difficult to get the perfect balance
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    edited September 2018

    Times tomorrow

    M16 believed Michael Foot was a paid Soviet informant

    When I hear of these stories, I wonder what he could offer in terms of information they could not get from any other operative. I suppose he would have been privy council but that would not mean automatic access to anything the Soviets might find interesting at that time. I will look out for this story and read it as I would be interested to see if it reflected a period when he was not LOTO. I think Corbyn and Wilson were suggested as being agents at various points in the past.
    Soviets not interested in intelligence discussed at the privy council level? OK.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,546

    Pagan said:

    But they are negotiating for the losing side for a start which shows not only arrogance on their part but a striking disdain for democracy.

    You can look at it that way if you wish, but you can also look at it that they are concerned that paralysis in the govt will result in a Hard/WTO crash Brexit and no one (except the swivel-eyed brigade) wants that. So, how to minimise a car-crash Brexit? Ask officials to consider the options beforehand. If Brexit fails or becomes BINO or an agreement is reached then no harm done....
    Pagan said:

    They should be told in no uncertain terms to shove off

    And leave no one to speak for Britain?
    Pagan said:

    and the fact the EU is cooperating with them tells us all we need to know about the EU.

    Yes. It tells us that the EU does not want car-crash Brexit either.
    Pagan said:

    I am sure remainers like yourself would soon complain if Boris, Gove and Farage went to negotiate as private individuals.

    It would not bother me. Look how effective they have been in their official capacity. I am sure that in their private capacity they would be no better.

    :D:D:D:D
    Anthony Charles Lynton Blair? Seriously?
    I would rather the govt spoke for us, but to date .....
    You're trolling us, right?
    You would rather that the UK's two year silence on Brexit continues? Just sail off the cliff on March 29th?

    DO nothing until it is too late? That's your preferred approach and YOU ask if I'm trolling????

    Comedy gold!
    Do you mind me asking if you follow the news? I'm sure I've heard a few people close to the Brexit negotiations suggesting a deal can be done in the next 8 weeks. Maybe you know different?
    The deal you refer to is we get the privilege of paying rather more than the stated £39 billion and agree to stick a border between two parts of our country in exchange for being allowed to keep things mostly as they already were for two years. The real deal, if any, comes after another cliff edge, after we work out what we want.

    To be clear the stopgap is worth having.
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20

    Very symbolic.
    Maybe wishful thinking but I feel this is just going to give ammunition to any future LD or Tory election campaign.
    And SNP
    The SNP and Corbynites both hate Blair, ironically he is probably now more popular in Cable's LDs and even with Cameroon Tories than with them
    It was opposition to Blairite warmongering that led to the electoral success in the nineties and loads of new members.

    Blair is not popular with LDs.
    Correction, Blair was not popular with LDs.

    However most of the leftwing, sandal wearing LDs who were part of the party when Charles Kennedy led it on a left of New Labour, anti Iraq War platform have now defected to Corbyn Labour.


    The LDs who remain under Vince Cable are economically centrist and pro EU, they more than Corbyn Labour or the Tories are the true carriers of the Blairite torch now of the 3 main UK wide parties
    Bollocks.

    I am an LD, and you are not. Blairism and centrism are not synonymous.

    I have never heard Blair positively described at an LD meeting.
    I thought you were converted to the cult Dr Fox
    No, I am an Lib Dem.

    There are aspects of Corbyn that I like and aspects that I dislike. There are politicians in each party that I would vote for, and others that I wouldn't touch with a bargepole. I quite like Phil Hammond for example, but also Jess Phillips.

    Politically I am closest to Norman Lamb, and voted for him in the last LD leadership election.
    I like all three of those politicians even if Hammond is dull and not PM material
    I quite like my politicians a little dull (not that Jess Phillips is! ) and have a longstanding suspicion of charismatic leaders.

    Charisma very often is a cover for vacuity and shallow emotionalism. Rhetoric and self promotion are the mark of a con man. It may help win elections, but it nearly always means failure in office. Give me a dull administrator who knows how to get things done, like Attlee, any day.

    Of course dullness on its own is not enough, as we see in Mrs May,
    You are too harsh on Mrs May. Dullness is only one of her many negative qualities.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Scott_P said:
    How many of those things have actually happened or will happen? Understandable that the big red bus makes the top of the list, though... to lose to a bus!
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20

    Very symbolic.
    Maybe wishful thinking but I feel this is just going to give ammunition to any future LD or Tory election campaign.
    And SNP
    The SNP and Corbynites both hate Blair, ironically he is probably now more popular in Cable's LDs and even with Cameroon Tories than with them
    It was opposition to Blairite warmongering that led to the electoral success in the nineties and loads of new members.

    Blair is not popular with LDs.
    Correction, Blair was not popular with LDs.

    However most of the leftwing, sandal wearing LDs who were part of the party when Charles Kennedy led it on a left of New Labour, anti Iraq War platform have now defected to Corbyn Labour.


    The LDs who remain under Vince Cable are economically centrist and pro EU, they more than Corbyn Labour or the Tories are the true carriers of the Blairite torch now of the 3 main UK wide parties
    Bollocks.

    I am an LD, and you are not. Blairism and centrism are not synonymous.

    I have never heard Blair positively described at an LD meeting.
    I thought you were converted to the cult Dr Fox
    I like all three of those politicians even if Hammond is dull and not PM material
    I quite like my politicians a little dull (not that Jess Phillips is! ) and have a longstanding suspicion of charismatic leaders.

    Charisma very often is a cover for vacuity and shallow emotionalism. Rhetoric and self promotion are the mark of a con man. It may help win elections, but it nearly always means failure in office. Give me a dull administrator who knows how to get things done, like Attlee, any day.

    Of course dullness on its own is not enough, as we see in Mrs May,
    Usually a charismatic politician is best replaced by a dull one and vice versa. It is the change from one leadership style to another that galvanises support due to a freshness. Boris Johnson is seen by some as offering something different, he entertains people but I am not sure that is charisma. I certainly don't want to ever see him as PM as politics would really be an even worse mess if he took over, hard though it is to imagine a worse state of circumstances as now.
  • Scott_P said:
    That development doesn't quite fit the expected narrative.
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,307

    HYUFD said:

    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20

    Two out of 650 CLPs proposing anything aren't going to get anywhere...
    wouldn't this be quite a popular policy?
  • HYUFD said:

    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20

    Two out of 650 CLPs proposing anything aren't going to get anywhere...
    Well the Unions pay lots of the bills and would love Clause IV back, so...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:
    How many of those things have actually happened or will happen? Understandable that the big red bus makes the top of the list, though... to lose to a bus!
    Er... didn't hate crime rise, Farage smirk, and aren't we committed to blue passports made in France? None of the others can be discounted in the event of a no deal Brexit, either.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,922
    edited September 2018
    Scott_P said:
    "It's SHITE being a REMAINER! We're the lowest of the low. The scum of the f*cking Earth! The most wretched, miserable, servile, pathetic trash that was ever shat into civilization. Some hate the LEAVERS. I don't. They're just wankers. We, on the other hand, lost a REFERENDUM to wankers. Can't even find a decent campaign to lose a referenfum TO. We're ruled by effete Brexiteers. It's a SHITE state of affairs to be in, ScottP, and ALL the fresh air in the world won't make any f*cking difference!"
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,079

    Times tomorrow

    M16 believed Michael Foot was a paid Soviet informant

    When I hear of these stories, I wonder what he could offer in terms of information they could not get from any other operative. I suppose he would have been privy council but that would not mean automatic access to anything the Soviets might find interesting at that time. I will look out for this story and read it as I would be interested to see if it reflected a period when he was not LOTO. I think Corbyn and Wilson were suggested as being agents at various points in the past.
    Mi6 was full of moles, and it is quite possible that MI5 was headed by a Soviet spy. A good part of the rest was pursuing paranoid internal witch hunts.

    I would take anything they say about Foot with a shovel full of salt.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    RobD said:

    Times tomorrow

    M16 believed Michael Foot was a paid Soviet informant

    When I hear of these stories, I wonder what he could offer in terms of information they could not get from any other operative. I suppose he would have been privy council but that would not mean automatic access to anything the Soviets might find interesting at that time. I will look out for this story and read it as I would be interested to see if it reflected a period when he was not LOTO. I think Corbyn and Wilson were suggested as being agents at various points in the past.
    Soviets not interested in intelligence discussed at the privy council level? OK.
    Just because he was PC does not mean he attended anything of interest to them! After magnifying the Times report they say Foot was not a current spy or informant in the early 1980s but they claim he did receive the equivalent of £37,000 in todays money. I take a dim view of Foot in where he took the Labour party, just like Corbyn now.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:
    How many of those things have actually happened or will happen? Understandable that the big red bus makes the top of the list, though... to lose to a bus!
    Er... didn't hate crime rise, Farage smirk, and aren't we committed to blue passports made in France? None of the others can be discounted in the event of a no deal Brexit, either.
    Did it? And as for the passports, De La Rue deserved to lose the contract.
  • Scott_P said:
    "It's SHITE being a REMAINER! We're the lowest of the low. The scum of the f*cking Earth! The most wretched, miserable, servile, pathetic trash that was ever shat into civilization. Some hate the LEAVERS. I don't. They're just wankers. We, on the other hand, are lost a REFERENDUM to wankers. Can't even find a decent campaign to lose a referenfum TO. We're ruled by effete Brexiteers. It's a SHITE state of affairs to be in, ScottP, and ALL the fresh air in the world won't make any f*cking difference!"
    An admission to being wankers is better than nothing I guess.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    RobD said:

    Times tomorrow

    M16 believed Michael Foot was a paid Soviet informant

    When I hear of these stories, I wonder what he could offer in terms of information they could not get from any other operative. I suppose he would have been privy council but that would not mean automatic access to anything the Soviets might find interesting at that time. I will look out for this story and read it as I would be interested to see if it reflected a period when he was not LOTO. I think Corbyn and Wilson were suggested as being agents at various points in the past.
    Soviets not interested in intelligence discussed at the privy council level? OK.
    Just because he was PC does not mean he attended anything of interest to them! After magnifying the Times report they say Foot was not a current spy or informant in the early 1980s but they claim he did receive the equivalent of £37,000 in todays money. I take a dim view of Foot in where he took the Labour party, just like Corbyn now.
    You think he just skipped all those intelligence briefings when LOTO? I don’t know what made him more unfit to be PM!
  • Boris now saying he is against Chequers but for TM

    JRM and David Davis saying the same

    Reality clicking in with the ERG. They cannot remove her
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,922
    edited September 2018

    Scott_P said:
    "It's SHITE being a REMAINER! We're the lowest of the low. The scum of the f*cking Earth! The most wretched, miserable, servile, pathetic trash that was ever shat into civilization. Some hate the LEAVERS. I don't. They're just wankers. We, on the other hand, lost a REFERENDUM to wankers. Can't even find a decent campaign to lose a referenfum TO. We're ruled by effete Brexiteers. It's a SHITE state of affairs to be in, ScottP, and ALL the fresh air in the world won't make any f*cking difference!"
    An admission to being wankers is better than nothing I guess.
    Theuniondivvie: We, on the other hand, lost a REFERENDUM to wankers.

    :)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20

    Very symbolic.
    Maybe wishful thinking but I feel this is just going to give ammunition to any future LD or Tory election campaign.
    And SNP
    The SNP and Corbynites both hate Blair, ironically he is probably now more popular in Cable's LDs and even with Cameroon Tories than with them
    It was opposition to Blairite warmongering that led to the electoral success in the nineties and loads of new members.

    Blair is not popular with LDs.
    Correction, Blair was not popular with LDs.

    However most of the leftwing, sandal wearing LDs who were part of the party when Charles Kennedy led it on a left of New Labour, anti Iraq War platform have now defected to Corbyn Labour.


    The LDs who remain under Vince Cable are economically centrist and pro EU, they more than Corbyn Labour or the Tories are the true carriers of the Blairite torch now of the 3 main UK wide parties
    Bollocks.

    I am an LD, and you are not. Blairism and centrism are not synonymous.

    I have never heard Blair positively described at an LD meeting.
    I thought you were converted to the cult Dr Fox
    No, I am an Lib De Norman Lamb, and voted for him in the last LD leadership election.
    I like all three of those politicians even if Hammond is dull and not PM material
    I quite like my politicians a little dull (not that Jess Phillips is! ) and have a longstanding suspicion of charismatic leaders.

    Charisma very often is a cover for vacuity and shallow emotionalism. Rhetoric and self promotion are the mark of a con man. It may help win elections, but it nearly always means failure in office. Give me a dull administrator who knows how to get things done, like Attlee, any day.

    Of course dullness on its own is not enough, as we see in Mrs May,
    Not quite sure about that, Churchill, Thatcher, Cameron, Blair (pre Iraq) were all charismatic and reasonably successful in office, the same applies to Reagan or Clinton or Obama in the USA.

    Attlee was a successful dull leader, as indeed was say John Howard in Australia but Brown was dull and below average as was Heath
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20

    Very symbolic.
    Maybe wishful thinking but I feel this is just going to give ammunition to any future LD or Tory election campaign.
    And SNP
    The SNP and Corbynites both hate Blair, ironically he is probably now more popular in Cable's LDs and even with Cameroon Tories than with them
    It was opposition to Blairite warmongering that led to the electoral success in the nineties and loads of new members.

    Blair is not popular with LDs.
    (cut)
    Bollocks.

    I am an LD, and you are not. Blairism and centrism are not synonymous.

    I have never heard Blair positively described at an LD meeting.
    I thought you were converted to the cult Dr Fox
    No, I am an Lib Dem.

    There are aspects of Corbyn that I like and aspects that I dislike. There are politicians in each party that I would vote for, and others that I wouldn't touch with a bargepole. I quite like Phil Hammond for example, but also Jess Phillips.

    Politically I am closest to Norman Lamb, and voted for him in the last LD leadership election.
    I like all three of those politicians even if Hammond is dull and not PM material
    I quite like my politicians a little dull (not that Jess Phillips is! ) and have a longstanding suspicion of charismatic leaders.

    Charisma very often is a cover for vacuity and shallow emotionalism. Rhetoric and self promotion are the mark of a con man. It may help win elections, but it nearly always means failure in office. Give me a dull administrator who knows how to get things done, like Attlee, any day.

    Of course dullness on its own is not enough, as we see in Mrs May,
    You are too harsh on Mrs May. Dullness is only one of her many negative qualities.
    Reminds me of the Ustinov gag about setting yourself low standards and failing to live up to them.

    I posted (along the lines) below that her consistent poor performance starts to add up to something that looks like good performance. I'm not as condemning as you are generally, but just to follow the meme - if she manages to rubbish her way through Brexit then she'll perhaps go down as a PM great!

  • Matthew Parris: A second referendum could save us from disaster

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-second-referendum-could-save-us-from-disaster-nh0q97xj2

    You know I support TM getting a deal but if that failed or was voted down I would support a second referendum but I am far from certain how it would resolve anything, indeed it could make things worse

    One thing that has to happen - hard Brexit/WTO must be stopped by the HOC
    So if you support a second referendum if May's deal is defeated in Parliament, what do you think the question should be?
    I would assume the Electoral Commission or similar would be tasked with the wording but I assume it would be

    TM deal
    No deal
    Remain

    But I do not think remain would find it a walkover. Anything could happen and I have no idea how I would vote
    There is no such thing as Remain, only ever closer union or disintegration.
    There is remain and the HOC can pass emergency legislation if needs be.

    However I want to leave under TM deal
    Is that the TM deal that has already been rejected by the EU? Or does it include any degree of further sellouts (eg customs union, alignment for services, free movement)?
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20

    Very symbolic.
    Maybe wishful thinking but I feel this is just going to give ammunition to any future LD or Tory election campaign.
    And SNP
    The SNP and Corbynites both hate Blair, ironically he is probably now more popular in Cable's LDs and even with Cameroon Tories than with them
    It was opposition to Blairite warmongering that led to the electoral success in the nineties and loads of new members.

    Blair is not popular with LDs.
    Correction, Blair was not popular with LDs.

    However most of the leftwing, sandal wearing LDs who were part of the party when Charles Kennedy led it on a left of New Labour, anti Iraq War platform have now defected to Corbyn Labour.


    The LDs who remain under Vince Cable are economically centrist and pro EU, they more than Corbyn Labour or the Tories are the true carriers of the Blairite torch now of the 3 main UK wide parties
    Bollocks.

    I am an LD, and you are not. Blairism and centrism are not synonymous.

    I have never heard Blair positively described at an LD meeting.
    I thought you were converted to the cult Dr Fox
    No, I am an Lib Dem.

    Politically I am closest to Norman Lamb, and voted for him in the last LD leadership election.
    I like all three of those politicians even if Hammond is dull and not PM material
    I quite like my politicians a little dull (not that Jess Phillips is! ) and have a longstanding suspicion of charismatic leaders.

    Charisma very often is a cover for vacuity and shallow emotionalism. Rhetoric and self promotion are the mark of a con man. It may help win elections, but it nearly always means failure in office. Give me a dull administrator who knows how to get things done, like Attlee, any day.

    Of course dullness on its own is not enough, as we see in Mrs May,
    You are too harsh on Mrs May. Dullness is only one of her many negative qualities.
    Excuse me, excuse me. I don't mean to harass you, but I was very impressed with the capable and stylish manner in which you dealt with the EU negotiations. And I was thinking to myself, now this PM's special.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    edited September 2018

    Matthew Parris: A second referendum could save us from disaster

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-second-referendum-could-save-us-from-disaster-nh0q97xj2

    You know I support TM getting a deal but if that failed or was voted down I would support a second referendum but I am far from certain how it would resolve anything, indeed it could make things worse

    One thing that has to happen - hard Brexit/WTO must be stopped by the HOC
    So if you support a second referendum if May's deal is defeated in Parliament, what do you think the question should be?
    I would assume the Electoral Commission or similar would be tasked with the wording but I assume it would be

    TM deal
    No deal
    Remain

    But I do not think remain would find it a walkover. Anything could happen and I have no idea how I would vote
    There is no such thing as Remain, only ever closer union or disintegration.
    There is remain and the HOC can pass emergency legislation if needs be.

    However I want to leave under TM deal
    Is that the TM deal that has already been rejected by the EU? Or does it include any degree of further sellouts (eg customs union, alignment for services, free movement)?
    It will not please you I am sure but a deal is on the way

    85% agreed apparently
  • Matthew Parris: A second referendum could save us from disaster

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-second-referendum-could-save-us-from-disaster-nh0q97xj2

    You know I support TM getting a deal but if that failed or was voted down I would support a second referendum but I am far from certain how it would resolve anything, indeed it could make things worse

    One thing that has to happen - hard Brexit/WTO must be stopped by the HOC
    So if you support a second referendum if May's deal is defeated in Parliament, what do you think the question should be?
    I would assume the Electoral Commission or similar would be tasked with the wording but I assume it would be

    TM deal
    No deal
    Remain

    But I do not think remain would find it a walkover. Anything could happen and I have no idea how I would vote
    Leave/remain has already been decided. So, why don’t we have a vote on TM deal vs No Deal?

    Oh thats right, because once the object failure of TM is made clear to the public they will support no deal. And we can’t have another referendum where the people might give the wrong answer, can we?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,079

    Matthew Parris: A second referendum could save us from disaster

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-second-referendum-could-save-us-from-disaster-nh0q97xj2

    You know I support TM getting a deal but if that failed or was voted down I would support a second referendum but I am far from certain how it would resolve anything, indeed it could make things worse

    One thing that has to happen - hard Brexit/WTO must be stopped by the HOC
    So if you support a second referendum if May's deal is defeated in Parliament, what do you think the question should be?
    I would assume the Electoral Commission or similar would be tasked with the wording but I assume it would be

    TM deal
    No deal
    Remain

    But I do not think remain would find it a walkover. Anything could happen and I have no idea how I would vote
    There is no such thing as Remain, only ever closer union or disintegration.
    There is remain and the HOC can pass emergency legislation if needs be.

    However I want to leave under TM deal
    Is that the TM deal that has already been rejected by the EU? Or does it include any degree of further sellouts (eg customs union, alignment for services, free movement)?
    When it has all those features it has the bones of a good plan.

    Of course it would be better to help write the rules, but by and large the EU rules are well constructed and written so well worth following.
  • Matthew Parris: A second referendum could save us from disaster

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-second-referendum-could-save-us-from-disaster-nh0q97xj2

    You know I support TM getting a deal but if that failed or was voted down I would support a second referendum but I am far from certain how it would resolve anything, indeed it could make things worse

    One thing that has to happen - hard Brexit/WTO must be stopped by the HOC
    So if you support a second referendum if May's deal is defeated in Parliament, what do you think the question should be?
    I would assume the Electoral Commission or similar would be tasked with the wording but I assume it would be

    TM deal
    No deal
    Remain

    But I do not think remain would find it a walkover. Anything could happen and I have no idea how I would vote
    There is no such thing as Remain, only ever closer union or disintegration.
    There is remain and the HOC can pass emergency legislation if needs be.

    However I want to leave under TM deal
    Is that the TM deal that has already been rejected by the EU? Or does it include any degree of further sellouts (eg customs union, alignment for services, free movement)?
    It will not please you I am sure but a deal is on the way
    I have asked before whether you have any evidence of that and particularly what deal could be agreed. You didn’t answer. Looks like wishful thinking.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    edited September 2018
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Times tomorrow

    M16 believed Michael Foot was a paid Soviet informant

    When I hear of these stories, I wonder what he could offer in terms of information they could not get from any other operative. I suppose he would have been privy council but that would not mean automatic access to anything the Soviets might find interesting at that time. I will look out for this story and read it as I would be interested to see if it reflected a period when he was not LOTO. I think Corbyn and Wilson were suggested as being agents at various points in the past.
    Soviets not interested in intelligence discussed at the privy council level? OK.
    Just because he was PC does not mean he attended anything of interest to them! After magnifying the Times report they say Foot was not a current spy or informant in the early 1980s but they claim he did receive the equivalent of £37,000 in todays money. I take a dim view of Foot in where he took the Labour party, just like Corbyn now.
    You think he just skipped all those intelligence briefings when LOTO? I don’t know what made him more unfit to be PM!
    He might not have been invited to attend anything related to UK/NATO/Soviet relations or military strategy. I think Foot led Labour into supporting the Falklands campaign, something he could have opposed given his otherwise dogmatic/partisanship approach. The £37,000 was attributed to a period before he was leader of the opposition and I doubt the equivalent of £37,000 finding its way into his bank account would have gone unnoticed by MI5/6 when he was a minister! He would have broken rules about accepting payments and asked to resign.
  • Matthew Parris: A second referendum could save us from disaster

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-second-referendum-could-save-us-from-disaster-nh0q97xj2

    You know I support TM getting a deal but if that failed or was voted down I would support a second referendum but I am far from certain how it would resolve anything, indeed it could make things worse

    One thing that has to happen - hard Brexit/WTO must be stopped by the HOC
    So if you support a second referendum if May's deal is defeated in Parliament, what do you think the question should be?
    I would assume the Electoral Commission or similar would be tasked with the wording but I assume it would be

    TM deal
    No deal
    Remain

    But I do not think remain would find it a walkover. Anything could happen and I have no idea how I would vote
    Leave/remain has already been decided. So, why don’t we have a vote on TM deal vs No Deal?

    Oh thats right, because once the object failure of TM is made clear to the public they will support no deal. And we can’t have another referendum where the people might give the wrong answer, can we?
    No deal/wto will not happen thankfully for those of us who live here in the UK

    TM deal or a second referendum - your choice
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    It'll be interesting to see if the Daily Mail's circulation is affected by the new editorial stance.
  • Matthew Parris: A second referendum could save us from disaster

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-second-referendum-could-save-us-from-disaster-nh0q97xj2

    You know I support TM getting a deal but if that failed or was voted down I would support a second referendum but I am far from certain how it would resolve anything, indeed it could make things worse

    One thing that has to happen - hard Brexit/WTO must be stopped by the HOC
    So if you support a second referendum if May's deal is defeated in Parliament, what do you think the question should be?
    I would assume the Electoral Commission or similar would be tasked with the wording but I assume it would be

    TM deal
    No deal
    Remain

    But I do not think remain would find it a walkover. Anything could happen and I have no idea how I would vote
    There is no such thing as Remain, only ever closer union or disintegration.
    There is remain and the HOC can pass emergency legislation if needs be.

    However I want to leave under TM deal
    Is that the TM deal that has already been rejected by the EU? Or does it include any degree of further sellouts (eg customs union, alignment for services, free movement)?
    It will not please you I am sure but a deal is on the way
    I have asked before whether you have any evidence of that and particularly what deal could be agreed. You didn’t answer. Looks like wishful thinking.
    Barnier has said a deal will be in place in 6 - 8 weeks and they are 85% agreed

    I am sorry to disappoint you but your plan is not going to happen
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    AndyJS said:

    It'll be interesting to see if the Daily Mail's circulation is affected by the new editorial stance.

    I would be more likely to buy it than just read it online because of a more realistic strategy from the DM on Brexit.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265
    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20

    Two out of 650 CLPs proposing anything aren't going to get anywhere...
    wouldn't this be quite a popular policy?
    IMO no, neither among voters nor members. Too much recycling of past battles.
  • "1,000 years from now there will be no REMAINERS and no LEAVERS, just wankers. Sounds great to me."
  • AndyJS said:

    It'll be interesting to see if the Daily Mail's circulation is affected by the new editorial stance.

    Probably go up
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    Matthew Parris: A second referendum could save us from disaster

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-second-referendum-could-save-us-from-disaster-nh0q97xj2

    You know I support TM getting a deal but if that failed or was voted down I would support a second referendum but I am far from certain how it would resolve anything, indeed it could make things worse

    One thing that has to happen - hard Brexit/WTO must be stopped by the HOC
    So if you support a second referendum if May's deal is defeated in Parliament, what do you think the question should be?
    I would assume the Electoral Commission or similar would be tasked with the wording but I assume it would be

    TM deal
    No deal
    Remain

    But I do not think remain would find it a walkover. Anything could happen and I have no idea how I would vote
    There is no such thing as Remain, only ever closer union or disintegration.
    There is remain and the HOC can pass emergency legislation if needs be.

    However I want to leave under TM deal
    Is that the TM deal that has already been rejected by the EU? Or does it include any degree of further sellouts (eg customs union, alignment for services, free movement)?
    It will be largely customs union and single market by another name with alignment for services and a work permit and study place on arrival requirement which will be the basis of the Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,079
    AndyJS said:

    It'll be interesting to see if the Daily Mail's circulation is affected by the new editorial stance.

    Newspapers are followers rather than leaders. The direction of the wind has changed.
  • Matthew Parris: A second referendum could save us from disaster

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-second-referendum-could-save-us-from-disaster-nh0q97xj2

    You know I support TM getting a deal but if that failed or was voted down I would support a second referendum but I am far from certain how it would resolve anything, indeed it could make things worse

    One thing that has to happen - hard Brexit/WTO must be stopped by the HOC
    So if you support a second referendum if May's deal is defeated in Parliament, what do you think the question should be?
    I would assume the Electoral Commission or similar would be tasked with the wording but I assume it would be

    TM deal
    No deal
    Remain

    But I do not think remain would find it a walkover. Anything could happen and I have no idea how I would vote
    Leave/remain has already been decided. So, why don’t we have a vote on TM deal vs No Deal?

    Oh thats right, because once the object failure of TM is made clear to the public they will support no deal. And we can’t have another referendum where the people might give the wrong answer, can we?
    No deal/wto will not happen thankfully for those of us who live here in the UK

    TM deal or a second referendum - your choice
    And if the hypothetical second referendum confirms Leave?
  • AndyJS said:

    It'll be interesting to see if the Daily Mail's circulation is affected by the new editorial stance.

    I would be more likely to buy it than just read it online because of a more realistic strategy from the DM on Brexit.
    You can get the paper itself on line for £9.99 per month. I changed from daily delivery to on line when it was launched and even without the politics it is a good paper and my wife loves the puzzles.

    The change in editorial is marked and seems to have set it sights on the ERG with questions today over their finances.

    It is now in TM's camp
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    Matthew Parris: A second referendum could save us from disaster

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-second-referendum-could-save-us-from-disaster-nh0q97xj2

    You know I support TM getting a deal but if that failed or was voted down I would support a second referendum but I am far from certain how it would resolve anything, indeed it could make things worse

    One thing that has to happen - hard Brexit/WTO must be stopped by the HOC
    So if you support a second referendum if May's deal is defeated in Parliament, what do you think the question should be?
    I would assume the Electoral Commission or similar would be tasked with the wording but I assume it would be

    TM deal
    No deal
    Remain

    But I do not think remain would find it a walkover. Anything could happen and I have no idea how I would vote
    Leave/remain has already been decided. So, why don’t we have a vote on TM deal vs No Deal?

    Oh thats right, because once the object failure of TM is made clear to the public they will support no deal. And we can’t have another referendum where the people might give the wrong answer, can we?
    No deal/wto will not happen thankfully for those of us who live here in the UK

    TM deal or a second referendum - your choice
    I think Brexit is going to tear the political parties apart.

    It has been obvious that dramatic developments will occur for some time in newspaper leader writing. You just have to look at the change in ownership of the Daily Express, which is now owned by the Trinity Mirror Group and the change in editor of the Daily Mail. A massive change is underway and will slowly creep over these most Eurosceptic of newspapers. I cannot read the future but I am now thinking Brexit will fail to happen. where the newspapers lead the readership will in part follow. Attitudes will change.
  • Matthew Parris: A second referendum could save us from disaster

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-second-referendum-could-save-us-from-disaster-nh0q97xj2

    You know I support TM getting a deal but if that failed or was voted down I would support a second referendum but I am far from certain how it would resolve anything, indeed it could make things worse

    One thing that has to happen - hard Brexit/WTO must be stopped by the HOC
    So if you support a second referendum if May's deal is defeated in Parliament, what do you think the question should be?
    I would assume the Electoral Commission or similar would be tasked with the wording but I assume it would be

    TM deal
    No deal
    Remain

    But I do not think remain would find it a walkover. Anything could happen and I have no idea how I would vote
    Leave/remain has already been decided. So, why don’t we have a vote on TM deal vs No Deal?

    Oh thats right, because once the object failure of TM is made clear to the public they will support no deal. And we can’t have another referendum where the people might give the wrong answer, can we?
    No deal/wto will not happen thankfully for those of us who live here in the UK

    TM deal or a second referendum - your choice
    And if the hypothetical second referendum confirms Leave?
    Leave it is and I am not at all certain that remain would win as they think they would
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    edited September 2018

    Boris now saying he is against Chequers but for TM

    JRM and David Davis saying the same

    Reality clicking in with the ERG. They cannot remove her

    You make it sound like it's a good thing that we're stuck with the never-ending doom, gloom and despondency of May and Hammond...

    Not only does it feel like the country is stuck under a fog of despair with this pair of third-raters at the helm it seems we face a never-ending barrage of tax rises and nannying too....

    I was having my dinner this evening and I really did wonder whether Theresa bloody May might knock on the door to come and check if what I was eating met with her approval.

    Even life under Blair wasn't this.... "Oppressive"
  • GIN1138 said:

    Boris now saying he is against Chequers but for TM

    JRM and David Davis saying the same

    Reality clicking in with the ERG. They cannot remove her

    You make it sound like it's a good thing that we're stuck with the never-ending doom, gloom and despondency of May and Hammond...

    Not only does it feel like the country is stuck under a fog of despair with this pair of third-raters at the helm it seems we face a never-ending barrage of tax rises and nannying too....

    I was having my dinner this evening and I really did wonder whether Theresa bloody May might knock on the door to come and check if what I was eating met with her approval.

    Even life under Blair wasn't this.... "Oppressive"
    I think that tax rises are the inevitable consequencies of the crisis in the NHS and social care that is going to cost billions. On controlling diet, obesity is a massive problem impacting on health and the social fabric of the country

    Higher taxes and concentration in prevention in health care are inevitable no matter whether we are in or out of Europe
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    edited September 2018
    Sorry for double post
  • nunuonenunuone Posts: 1,138

    Scott_P said:
    That development doesn't quite fit the expected narrative.
    It especially doesn't fit Trump's narrative that the trial is bias......
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,761

    "1,000 years from now there will be no REMAINERS and no LEAVERS, just wankers. Sounds great to me."

    Well, if we all become wankers very soon there would be no Remainers and no Leavers.
  • Time to put the tablet down once more

    I wish everyone a peaceful nights rest

    Good night folks
  • A massive change is underway and will slowly creep over these most Eurosceptic of newspapers. I cannot read the future but I am now thinking Brexit will fail to happen. where the newspapers lead the readership will in part follow. Attitudes will change.

    One thing that's become quite apparent is that a lot of soft Remainers in the media who didn't quite know why they were for Remain in 2016 have now solidified. Brexiteers won the vote but over time have lost all the arguments and now look very exposed just at the moment when they need a broad national consensus behind them to pull this off.
  • ydoethur said:

    "1,000 years from now there will be no REMAINERS and no LEAVERS, just wankers. Sounds great to me."

    Well, if we all become wankers very soon there would be no Remainers and no Leavers.
    Um, speaking of, er, "Trainspotting", wrapped up my "Cornish Expedition" (aka "Operation @SeanT ") this afternoon, doing the Looe branch from Liskeard, also managing to alight at the very rarely patronised Coombe Junction.

    On Monday, initially thrusted westward from Newton Abbot to Plymouth, then on Tuesday (rather drizzly) did Plymouth to Gunnislake and the main line as far as Truro along with the Falmouth branch. On Wednesday (much brighter) did the Par to Newquay branch, and on Thursday (even sunnier) did the main line all the way to Penzance, along with the St Ives branch.

    So, all National Rail (ie. Great Western) routes in Cornwall done!
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    edited September 2018

    GIN1138 said:

    Boris now saying he is against Chequers but for TM

    JRM and David Davis saying the same

    Reality clicking in with the ERG. They cannot remove her

    You make it sound like it's a good thing that we're stuck with the never-ending doom, gloom and despondency of May and Hammond...

    Not only does it feel like the country is stuck under a fog of despair with this pair of third-raters at the helm it seems we face a never-ending barrage of tax rises and nannying too....

    I was having my dinner this evening and I really did wonder whether Theresa bloody May might knock on the door to come and check if what I was eating met with her approval.

    Even life under Blair wasn't this.... "Oppressive"
    I think that tax rises are the inevitable consequencies of the crisis in the NHS and social care that is going to cost billions. On controlling diet, obesity is a massive problem impacting on health and the social fabric of the country

    Higher taxes and concentration in prevention in health care are inevitable no matter whether we are in or out of Europe
    Tax food - job done!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Sorry for double post

    Everyone get's one. :p
  • GIN1138 said:

    Boris now saying he is against Chequers but for TM

    JRM and David Davis saying the same

    Reality clicking in with the ERG. They cannot remove her

    You make it sound like it's a good thing that we're stuck with the never-ending doom, gloom and despondency of May and Hammond...

    Not only does it feel like the country is stuck under a fog of despair with this pair of third-raters at the helm it seems we face a never-ending barrage of tax rises and nannying too....

    I was having my dinner this evening and I really did wonder whether Theresa bloody May might knock on the door to come and check if what I was eating met with her approval.

    Even life under Blair wasn't this.... "Oppressive"
    I think that tax rises are the inevitable consequencies of the crisis in the NHS and social care that is going to cost billions. On controlling diet, obesity is a massive problem impacting on health and the social fabric of the country

    Higher taxes and concentration in prevention in health care are inevitable no matter whether we are in or out of Europe
    Tax food - job done!
    Much food already is.
  • Strange goings on at Sky TV.They started to run last night's (ie Thursdays) paper review at 11.30 then switched to the NEWS reports at 11.45pm. Could be just a technical muck up or could be remarks about Corbyn on the 10.30 edition by Cameron's old pre0ss guy.

    Talking about the latest Murdoch press red smear on the late Michael Foot who successfully sued when he was alive this person said that compared to Corbyn Foot was a patriot. Might have been too rich for the blood of the Sky lawyers? - or maybe just a technical hitch
  • Confusion continues at Sky News - no midnight news but The Pledge instead. Is this normal scheduling?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    HYUFD said:

    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20

    A Momentum vid popped up in my timeline about deselection giving the members greater say in choosing MPs. Given Labour is essentially now a mass membership party I think it is a sensible move.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,579
    scotslass said:

    Confusion continues at Sky News - no midnight news but The Pledge instead. Is this normal scheduling?

    No - it only happens once a year, as I understand it...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    "1,000 years from now there will be no REMAINERS and no LEAVERS, just wankers. Sounds great to me."

    How was the trip to Salisbury ?
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    valleyboy said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Boris now saying he is against Chequers but for TM

    JRM and David Davis saying the same

    Reality clicking in with the ERG. They cannot remove her

    You make it sound like it's a good thing that we're stuck with the never-ending doom, gloom and despondency of May and Hammond...

    Not only does it feel like the country is stuck under a fog of despair with this pair of third-raters at the helm it seems we face a never-ending barrage of tax rises and nannying too....

    I was having my dinner this evening and I really did wonder whether Theresa bloody May might knock on the door to come and check if what I was eating met with her approval.

    Even life under Blair wasn't this.... "Oppressive"
    I think that tax rises are the inevitable consequencies of the crisis in the NHS and social care that is going to cost billions. On controlling diet, obesity is a massive problem impacting on health and the social fabric of the country

    Higher taxes and concentration in prevention in health care are inevitable no matter whether we are in or out of Europe
    Tax food - job done!
    Much food already is.
    Sorry - all food, with progressive rates per individual bill
  • valleyboy said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Boris now saying he is against Chequers but for TM

    JRM and David Davis saying the same

    Reality clicking in with the ERG. They cannot remove her

    You make it sound like it's a good thing that we're stuck with the never-ending doom, gloom and despondency of May and Hammond...

    Not only does it feel like the country is stuck under a fog of despair with this pair of third-raters at the helm it seems we face a never-ending barrage of tax rises and nannying too....

    I was having my dinner this evening and I really did wonder whether Theresa bloody May might knock on the door to come and check if what I was eating met with her approval.

    Even life under Blair wasn't this.... "Oppressive"
    I think that tax rises are the inevitable consequencies of the crisis in the NHS and social care that is going to cost billions. On controlling diet, obesity is a massive problem impacting on health and the social fabric of the country

    Higher taxes and concentration in prevention in health care are inevitable no matter whether we are in or out of Europe
    Tax food - job done!
    Much food already is.
    Sorry - all food, with progressive rates per individual bill
    Why all food? Not all food is bad for you. Why should fresh fruit and vegetables be taxed?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited September 2018

    Major was widely criticised and ridiculed as May is now.

    Fast forward twenty years and Major is characterised as a political titan - the benefit of being followed by the catastrophes that were Blair and Brown.

    Oddly enough I'm watching House of Cards for the first time, on BBC iPlayer. Between episodes 2 and 3, Major took over as prime minister, which is the best timing a TV drama has ever had I think. Can't believe I haven't watched it until now.
  • Boris now saying he is against Chequers but for TM

    JRM and David Davis saying the same

    Reality clicking in with the ERG. They cannot remove her

    :lol: They have finally worked out LBJ's first rule of politics: be able to count.

  • AndyJS said:

    Major was widely criticised and ridiculed as May is now.

    Fast forward twenty years and Major is characterised as a political titan - the benefit of being followed by the catastrophes that were Blair and Brown.

    Oddly enough I'm watching House of Cards for the first time, on BBC iPlayer. Between episodes 2 and 3, Major took over as prime minister, which is the best timing a TV drama has ever had I think. Can't believe I haven't watched it until now.
    Dobbs, of course, did have real insight into the state of Tory party politics at that time. And we had had the stalking horse candidacy of Anthony Meyer at the end of 1989 - so change was always going to come at some point. The eventual timing was about as perfect as you could have wanted.

    And, of course, Richardson's FU is one of the great TV performances. The Shakespearean influence is there to see - both in his interpretation and in the direct address to camera.

    I watched it again a couple of weeks ago and it is still wonderfully enjoyable.
This discussion has been closed.