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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » How the readership of the main national papers are split on Br

SystemSystem Posts: 11,017
edited September 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » How the readership of the main national papers are split on Brexit

YouGov have just published a poll which shows how readers of different newspapers are viewing brexit and how they would vote in a new referendum. For some reason the Sun does not appear to be included.

Read the full story here


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Comments

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    Explains why the Times despite being a Murdoch paper was for Remain.
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    StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    PClipp said:

    Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off

    Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
    Indeed has any Prime Minister ever had such a difficult task and I believe the public may well have an increasing admiration and trust in her not mirrored by those so into politics including those of us on this forum
    After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done

    A difficult task of her own making, surely. If she had been more conciliatory and less confrontational, she might have received more support and been more successful, in promoting the interests of the country as a whole.
    You are coming from a remain standpoint which as near as matters 50% of the argument with the other 50% the polar opposite. TM is trying to square the circle and no one else would have got even this far.

    Who do you think would have been better, Boris ???
    Anyone who was willing to risk walking away - as May herself knew that she should and used that language but didn't mean it. That doesn't mean you actually want to walk away empty handed, it just means be prepared to if negotiations fail.
    I'm not sure the Eric Clipperton school of negotiation would have been much use
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    I wonder how those percentages would translate to numbers given the different numbers of readers of each paper. Also I wonder how the poll accounts for online readership in the figures.
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    Obviously many newspaper readers select their newspapers for more than just shared values.
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    AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Explains why the Times despite being a Murdoch paper was for Remain.

    Obviously many newspaper readers select their newspapers for more than just shared values.

    I a leftie friend who takes the Telegraph rather than the Guardian because he can rarely complete the Guardian cryptic crossword. The Telegraph's is far easier.
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    Sun readers don't care if its Leave or Remain, just so long as she's got big t*ts.
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Obviously many newspaper readers select their newspapers for more than just shared values.

    Or you interview the wife of Mr Frothy-Gammon, and it turns out he buys the paper, but does not - thankfully - control how she thinks or votes.

    Mrs Frothy-Gammon is seeing someone on the side, and has been taking a keen interest in the recent reforms in divorce law.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited September 2018

    Sun readers don't care if its Leave or Remain, just so long as she's got big t*ts.

    :D:D:D:D
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189
    34% of FT readers supporting Leave is higher than I'd have guessed.
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited September 2018
    tlg86 said:

    34% of FT readers supporting Leave is higher than I'd have guessed.

    Charles and Smithson Jr are - to my mind at least, and apologies if this is a mischaracterisation - typical FT readers. Both Leavers.
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    tlg86 said:

    34% of FT readers supporting Leave is higher than I'd have guessed.

    Like the Anglican Church there is quite a gap between the priesthood of the FT and the congregation.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189
    Anorak said:

    tlg86 said:

    34% of FT readers supporting Leave is higher than I'd have guessed.

    Charles and Smithson Jr are - to my mind at least, and apologies if this is a mischaracterisation - typical FT readers. Both Leavers.
    "Part of the uniform"
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Has this been mentioned? I mean, WTF?

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7300628/davis-slams-pm-devoid-democracy/

    David Davis accuses Theresa May of being a ‘bigger menace to British voters’ than EU
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    Explains why the Times despite being a Murdoch paper was for Remain.

    The Times manage to be for Remain without being dickish about it, unlike, say, the Guardian or Independent or Economist.

    The Mail and Express have hitherto been very belligerent about Leave. I’d struggle to find a moderate Leave newspaper, except perhaps the Spectator.

    The Sunday Times couldn’t be more on the fence these days.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    Anorak said:

    Has this been mentioned? I mean, WTF?

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7300628/davis-slams-pm-devoid-democracy/

    David Davis accuses Theresa May of being a ‘bigger menace to British voters’ than EU

    maybe hell call a by election
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,994
    Anorak said:

    tlg86 said:

    34% of FT readers supporting Leave is higher than I'd have guessed.

    Charles and Smithson Jr are - to my mind at least, and apologies if this is a mischaracterisation - typical FT readers. Both Leavers.
    There is a spectrum of leavers from the genuinely dim (Express, Mail) through febrile nationalists who haven't quite got the balls to commit to proto-fascism (Telegraph) to right wing shitbags who want us all to live in the world of Ready Player One as some sort of mad experiment (FT).
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Dura_Ace said:

    Anorak said:

    tlg86 said:

    34% of FT readers supporting Leave is higher than I'd have guessed.

    Charles and Smithson Jr are - to my mind at least, and apologies if this is a mischaracterisation - typical FT readers. Both Leavers.
    There is a spectrum of leavers from the genuinely dim (Express, Mail) through febrile nationalists who haven't quite got the balls to commit to proto-fascism (Telegraph) to right wing shitbags who want us all to live in the world of Ready Player One as some sort of mad experiment (FT).
    Living in virtual reality has its appeal right now.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,331

    Obviously many newspaper readers select their newspapers for more than just shared values.

    That's right (and a reason why politicians write off some papers altogether at their peril). Also, it's STILL true that lots of people don't really care about the EU one way or the other. Ask them to give a Leave/Remain opinion and they'll tell you, in the same way as if you ask them if they'd rather holiday in Spain or Portugal. But it's not something they think about much.
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    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    The Telegraph's collapsing circulation, their Borisgraph approach and the readership split may be related.
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    Explains why the Times despite being a Murdoch paper was for Remain.

    The Times manage to be for Remain without being dickish about it, unlike, say, the Guardian or Independent or Economist.

    The Mail and Express have hitherto been very belligerent about Leave. I’d struggle to find a moderate Leave newspaper, except perhaps the Spectator.

    The Sunday Times couldn’t be more on the fence these days.
    Wasn't the Sunday Times for Leave? Which I took as the Times overall hedging itself (I know they've got separate editorial teams but still ...)

    Telegraph has been most moderate of the main Leave papers I think. Both being for Leave and willing to give a voice to Remain alarmists.
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    Dura_Ace said:

    Anorak said:

    tlg86 said:

    34% of FT readers supporting Leave is higher than I'd have guessed.

    Charles and Smithson Jr are - to my mind at least, and apologies if this is a mischaracterisation - typical FT readers. Both Leavers.
    There is a spectrum of leavers from the genuinely dim (Express, Mail) through febrile nationalists who haven't quite got the balls to commit to proto-fascism (Telegraph) to right wing shitbags who want us all to live in the world of Ready Player One as some sort of mad experiment (FT).
    Andrea Jenkyns
    Michael Gove
    Steve Baker

    The Tory party is a Brexiteer broad church.
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    IIRC there are more Labour voters who read the Sun or the Mail than the Guardian - given their respective circulations.

    Mark Mardell series on Brexit on WATO well worth listening to.
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    Anorak said:

    Has this been mentioned? I mean, WTF?

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7300628/davis-slams-pm-devoid-democracy/

    David Davis accuses Theresa May of being a ‘bigger menace to British voters’ than EU

    You can’t go far wrong by choosing the opposite position espoused by David Davis.
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    Anorak said:

    Has this been mentioned? I mean, WTF?

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7300628/davis-slams-pm-devoid-democracy/

    David Davis accuses Theresa May of being a ‘bigger menace to British voters’ than EU

    What plan did he come up with?
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    Anorak said:

    Has this been mentioned? I mean, WTF?

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7300628/davis-slams-pm-devoid-democracy/

    David Davis accuses Theresa May of being a ‘bigger menace to British voters’ than EU

    You can’t go far wrong by choosing the opposite position espoused by David Davis.
    That is why I voted for David Cameron in the leadership election, but look where that got us in this particular universe.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    IIRC there are more Labour voters who read the Sun or the Mail than the Guardian - given their respective circulations.

    Mark Mardell series on Brexit on WATO well worth listening to.

    Daily circulation

    Times plus FT plus i plus Guardian = circa 1 million
    Daily Mail = 1.3 million

    the shockers are the DT now 0.4 million so on its way to death and the Guardian 137k - dead but doesnt know it

    Mirror also appears to be in poor health

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_in_the_United_Kingdom_by_circulation
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    IIRC there are more Labour voters who read the Sun or the Mail than the Guardian - given their respective circulations.

    Mark Mardell series on Brexit on WATO well worth listening to.

    Daily circulation

    Times plus FT plus i plus Guardian = circa 1 million
    Daily Mail = 1.3 million

    the shockers are the DT now 0.4 million so on its way to death and the Guardian 137k - dead but doesnt know it

    Mirror also appears to be in poor health

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_in_the_United_Kingdom_by_circulation
    Circulation statistics without counting website views are ultimately meaningless now.

    That's like measuring the charts based on physical singles sales alone still.
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    Anorak said:

    Has this been mentioned? I mean, WTF?

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7300628/davis-slams-pm-devoid-democracy/

    David Davis accuses Theresa May of being a ‘bigger menace to British voters’ than EU

    What plan did he come up with?
    Here's his full speech - https://brexitcentral.com/chequers-plan-devoid-democracy-instead-seek-true-free-trade-partnership-eu/
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    Anorak said:

    Has this been mentioned? I mean, WTF?

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7300628/davis-slams-pm-devoid-democracy/

    David Davis accuses Theresa May of being a ‘bigger menace to British voters’ than EU

    What plan did he come up with?
    Here's his full speech - https://brexitcentral.com/chequers-plan-devoid-democracy-instead-seek-true-free-trade-partnership-eu/
    A man renowned in the party for being a lazy git. At least Raab gives the impression of being on top of his brief. Davis is a complete twat
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    IIRC there are more Labour voters who read the Sun or the Mail than the Guardian - given their respective circulations.

    Mark Mardell series on Brexit on WATO well worth listening to.

    Daily circulation

    Times plus FT plus i plus Guardian = circa 1 million
    Daily Mail = 1.3 million

    the shockers are the DT now 0.4 million so on its way to death and the Guardian 137k - dead but doesnt know it

    Mirror also appears to be in poor health

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_in_the_United_Kingdom_by_circulation
    Circulation statistics without counting website views are ultimately meaningless now.

    That's like measuring the charts based on physical singles sales alone still.
    thats fine but can you point us to paywall comparator ?

    visits to sites are done on a much different way than simple sales
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962
    felix said:
    I think this can be unironically described as unspoofable.....



    Oh, my coat?
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    IIRC there are more Labour voters who read the Sun or the Mail than the Guardian - given their respective circulations.

    Mark Mardell series on Brexit on WATO well worth listening to.

    Daily circulation

    Times plus FT plus i plus Guardian = circa 1 million
    Daily Mail = 1.3 million

    the shockers are the DT now 0.4 million so on its way to death and the Guardian 137k - dead but doesnt know it

    Mirror also appears to be in poor health

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_in_the_United_Kingdom_by_circulation
    Circulation statistics without counting website views are ultimately meaningless now.

    That's like measuring the charts based on physical singles sales alone still.
    thats fine but can you point us to paywall comparator ?

    visits to sites are done on a much different way than simple sales
    Indeed.

    The Official Charts Company now includes free streaming via websites like YouTube as well as paid for streaming and others towards their overall charts figures. A free stream is worth less than a paid for stream which is worth less than a sale.

    It'd be great if someone came up with something like this for newspapers but nobody has. But the point remains that paper sales are meaningless in 2018. The Guardian could record 0 paper sales and it would because of its website as well as its history still be a significant paper today.
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Anorak said:

    Has this been mentioned? I mean, WTF?

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7300628/davis-slams-pm-devoid-democracy/

    David Davis accuses Theresa May of being a ‘bigger menace to British voters’ than EU

    What plan did he come up with?
    Here's his full speech - https://brexitcentral.com/chequers-plan-devoid-democracy-instead-seek-true-free-trade-partnership-eu/
    Jingoism, hand-waving on Ireland, veiled threats, economic bullshit, and a plea to the German car makers to help us out (you have to laugh).
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    IIRC there are more Labour voters who read the Sun or the Mail than the Guardian - given their respective circulations.

    Mark Mardell series on Brexit on WATO well worth listening to.

    Daily circulation

    Times plus FT plus i plus Guardian = circa 1 million
    Daily Mail = 1.3 million

    the shockers are the DT now 0.4 million so on its way to death and the Guardian 137k - dead but doesnt know it

    Mirror also appears to be in poor health

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_in_the_United_Kingdom_by_circulation
    Circulation statistics without counting website views are ultimately meaningless now.

    That's like measuring the charts based on physical singles sales alone still.
    thats fine but can you point us to paywall comparator ?

    visits to sites are done on a much different way than simple sales
    Indeed.

    The Official Charts Company now includes free streaming via websites like YouTube as well as paid for streaming and others towards their overall charts figures. A free stream is worth less than a paid for stream which is worth less than a sale.

    It'd be great if someone came up with something like this for newspapers but nobody has. But the point remains that paper sales are meaningless in 2018. The Guardian could record 0 paper sales and it would because of its website as well as its history still be a significant paper today.
    this is the closest Ive been able to find look at Readership. It tries to get round the problem of puttings things all in the same currency

    https://www.newsworks.org.uk/market-overview
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,850
    Afternoon all :)

    I see no one mentions the only newspaper any betting person should read on a daily basis - the Racing Post.

    For example, disappointing news today about the future of Towcester Racecourse which is obviously far more important than Brexit.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    french court rules Marine LePen must undergo psychiatric examination after she retweeted ISIS videos

    http://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/le-scan/2018/09/20/25001-20180920ARTFIG00119-la-justice-soumet-marine-le-pen-a-une-expertise-psychiatrique.php
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    So the Guardian has the most factional readership of any newspaper, including the Mail.
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    This is a serious misunderstanding of the British psyche.

    And I say that as an arch-remainer.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited September 2018
    Sounds like people have been a bit ‘reckless’ in how a country secedes from a longstanding political and economic union without giving proper thought to the consequences
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    tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,546
    So much for de-dramatizing the border or whatever! Looks like we are going to get a big last minute walk-out (mostly over something agreed last December.)

    I wouldn't want money against EEA + customs union at this stage if Chequers really won't fly. Seems to be only approach that actually leaves but works with a soft border.
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    How about Sunil on Sunsay readers?? :lol:
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    Will May now come up with a new approach? Or will she just keep robotically repeatimg that Chequers is the only way? I think we can guess. She must be the only person in the country who didn’t see this coming.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    Anorak said:

    This is a serious misunderstanding of the British psyche.

    And I say that as an arch-remainer.
    it ensures we wont go back in
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    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Rather wet today.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited September 2018
    Chillax, guys. The two sides are inching towards a deal, which will be broadly based on Chequers but not identical. That's how negotiations work.

    Edit: There remains a small risk of an accidental no-deal, but it's less than it was three or four months ago.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,994

    Will May now come up with a new approach? Or will she just keep robotically repeatimg that Chequers is the only way? I think we can guess. She must be the only person in the country who didn’t see this coming.
    Chequers II. Soft border on the M62.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    Chillax, guys. The two sides are inching towards a deal, which will be broadly based on Chequers but not identical. That's how negotiations work.

    as Mr Meeks said yesterday its an EU summit - we need more telling us all just how difficult it is

    now weve got it
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Chillax, guys. The two sides are inching towards a deal, which will be broadly based on Chequers but not identical. That's how negotiations work.

    What, you mean we can't all run around hysterically at every nuanced pronouncement? That's just not how these things work, you know.
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,850
    Anorak said:

    This is a serious misunderstanding of the British psyche.

    And I say that as an arch-remainer.
    The problem is going to be the anti-European indignation that will erupt in papers like the Mail and the Express and elsewhere. It's going to be tempting for the Prime Minister to jump on that bandwagon, flounce (it didn't go Cameron any harm at the time) and hope the EU will cave or she can go slinking back without being noticed in a few weeks.
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    Anorak said:

    This is a serious misunderstanding of the British psyche.

    And I say that as an arch-remainer.
    it ensures we wont go back in
    We will one day. I just hope I am still alive to watch people like you going pink in the face and eyes a-swivelling as we go for EU-full-fat-version with added integration.
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    Anorak said:

    This is a serious misunderstanding of the British psyche.

    And I say that as an arch-remainer.
    it ensures we wont go back in
    It is now obvious that the EU have decided that only total humiliation of May will do. She will be told to agree the backstop and pay the money and in return she will get nothing.

    They have correctly, in my view, realised that she is a soft touch and will crack under pressure. No wonder they have been so keen to keep her in office.

    I predicted no deal right from the start. That is exactly where this is headed. May can’t possibly get the sellout that the EU will demand through Parliament. Now Chequers is dead, will she resign?
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    stodge said:

    Anorak said:

    This is a serious misunderstanding of the British psyche.

    And I say that as an arch-remainer.
    The problem is going to be the anti-European indignation that will erupt in papers like the Mail and the Express and elsewhere. It's going to be tempting for the Prime Minister to jump on that bandwagon, flounce (it didn't go Cameron any harm at the time) and hope the EU will cave or she can go slinking back without being noticed in a few weeks.
    I think this is one area where nobody could slink back later without being noticed
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,850

    Chillax, guys. The two sides are inching towards a deal, which will be broadly based on Chequers but not identical. That's how negotiations work.

    Edit: There remains a small risk of an accidental no-deal, but it's less than it was three or four months ago.

    You do realise only you and David Cameron still say "chillax" - the rest of us have almost reached the 2020s.

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    Anorak said:

    Chillax, guys. The two sides are inching towards a deal, which will be broadly based on Chequers but not identical. That's how negotiations work.

    What, you mean we can't all run around hysterically at every nuanced pronouncement? That's just not how these things work, you know.
    Yes, it's like that scene in Les Vacances de Monsieur Hulot where the crowd on the station all dash to one platform because of one incomprehensible announcement, and then all dash back to the first platform following another incomprehensible announcement.

    Donald Tusk said a few minutes ago that he's a little more optimistic than he was.
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    stodge said:

    Chillax, guys. The two sides are inching towards a deal, which will be broadly based on Chequers but not identical. That's how negotiations work.

    Edit: There remains a small risk of an accidental no-deal, but it's less than it was three or four months ago.

    You do realise only you and David Cameron still say "chillax" - the rest of us have almost reached the 2020s.

    Only me, I think.
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    Anorak said:
    In fatness some of them hung around until this summer....
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    Anorak said:
    In fatness some of them hung around until this summer....
    David Cameron was the only one who left the next day !
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    Anorak said:

    This is a serious misunderstanding of the British psyche.

    And I say that as an arch-remainer.
    it ensures we wont go back in
    It is now obvious that the EU have decided that only total humiliation of May will do. She will be told to agree the backstop and pay the money and in return she will get nothing.

    They have correctly, in my view, realised that she is a soft touch and will crack under pressure. No wonder they have been so keen to keep her in office.

    I predicted no deal right from the start. That is exactly where this is headed. May can’t possibly get the sellout that the EU will demand through Parliament. Now Chequers is dead, will she resign?
    Haha. The antipodean heat is going to your head. You are either in wishful thinking land or you really don't understand politics or negotiation
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962

    Anorak said:
    In fatness some of them hung around until this summer....
    David Cameron was the only one who left the next day !
    Quite!
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    How about Sunil on Sunsay readers?? :lol:

    opps, Sunil on Sunday, of course :)
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    Anorak said:

    Chillax, guys. The two sides are inching towards a deal, which will be broadly based on Chequers but not identical. That's how negotiations work.

    What, you mean we can't all run around hysterically at every nuanced pronouncement? That's just not how these things work, you know.
    Yes, it's like that scene in Les Vacances de Monsieur Hulot where the crowd on the station all dash to one platform because of one incomprehensible announcement, and then all dash back to the first platform following another incomprehensible announcement.

    Donald Tusk said a few minutes ago that he's a little more optimistic than he was.
    Magnifique. Condensed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwiIYoJx5Es
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    RobD said:

    Anorak said:
    In fatness some of them hung around until this summer....
    David Cameron was the only one who left the next day !
    Quite!
    David Davis was far too lazy to do so. He had to wait around a while as he hadn't done enough damage by that point
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Chillax, guys. The two sides are inching towards a deal, which will be broadly based on Chequers but not identical. That's how negotiations work.

    Edit: There remains a small risk of an accidental no-deal, but it's less than it was three or four months ago.

    I'm amazed - I thought Tusk et al were going to come out beaming suggesting its a done deal like all the other summits post referendum...

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    RobD said:

    Anorak said:
    In fatness some of them hung around until this summer....
    David Cameron was the only one who left the next day !
    Quite!
    David Davis was far too lazy to do so. He had to wait around a while as he hadn't done enough damage by that point
    ..and we are still hoping the disgraced GP will catch up and realise it is time to jump ship and retire to spend more time with his special advisor
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    Chillax, guys. The two sides are inching towards a deal, which will be broadly based on Chequers but not identical. That's how negotiations work.

    as Mr Meeks said yesterday its an EU summit - we need more telling us all just how difficult it is

    now weve got it
    I do find a bit of manufactured confrontation reassuring. The earnest protestations that everything was very constructive was worrying the hell out of me.
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited September 2018
    Anorak said:

    Chillax, guys. The two sides are inching towards a deal, which will be broadly based on Chequers but not identical. That's how negotiations work.

    What, you mean we can't all run around hysterically at every nuanced pronouncement? That's just not how these things work, you know.
    If in doubt, run about, scream and shout. Why people pay any attention to public pronouncements (other than the universally wise words on PB, ofc) baffles me.

    My current Bremorse level: nil.
    EU sentiment: Fuck 'em and all who sail with them.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    tlg86 said:

    34% of FT readers supporting Leave is higher than I'd have guessed.

    Yes that is the most surprising statistic, although I was equally surprised by how many FT readers voted for Corbyn's Labour Party in 2017 which was 39% according to this article:

    https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/how-daily-newspaper-readers-voted-by-title-in-the-2017-general-election/
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,269
    edited September 2018
    stodge said:

    Chillax, guys. The two sides are inching towards a deal, which will be broadly based on Chequers but not identical. That's how negotiations work.

    Edit: There remains a small risk of an accidental no-deal, but it's less than it was three or four months ago.

    You do realise only you and David Cameron still say "chillax" - the rest of us have almost reached the 2020s.

    I hate it when TSE and others say "Yup" instead of "Yep" :)
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    John_M said:

    Anorak said:

    Chillax, guys. The two sides are inching towards a deal, which will be broadly based on Chequers but not identical. That's how negotiations work.

    What, you mean we can't all run around hysterically at every nuanced pronouncement? That's just not how these things work, you know.
    If in doubt, run about, scream and shout. Why people pay any attention to public pronouncements (other than the universally wise words on PB, ofc) baffles me.

    My current Bremorse level: nil.
    EU sentiment: Fuck 'em and all who sail with them.
    Well seeing as about 44% of our exports go to "them" then I guess that means a large number of our exporters and their UK employees that rely on them. But hey, as Boris says "Fuck business", fuck everyone that doesn't strut around showing off their narcissistic nationalistic credentials while they hide their miniscule appendages behind their faux patriotism
  • Options
    As far as I can see, there are two main issues outstanding:

    1. The Irish border, where the main obstacle is the EU's bizarre obsession with the backstop, to the exclusion of discussing what the actual proposed relationship is going to be. As I pointed out a few days ago, and as DD points out today:

    It will be necessary to make particular arrangements at the Northern Ireland ports to control goods from the Rest of the World from entering the EU undetected. We already have special arrangements relating to the regulatory control of issues like the Single Electricity market and agri business and in a free trade arrangement there will be no tariffs. So it is perfectly possible to maintain this invisible border by using and developing existing administrative procedures. We can do this with existing technology although up until recently the European Commission dismissed this as “magical thinking” – that has now changed.

    Not only does the technology already exist, it has been reported this week that the EU would like to deploy it between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. In essence, Michel Barnier is proposing checks away from the border. This is exactly what we proposed to deal with the North-South border. It is great to see that the EU is engaging with innovative solutions. But the question surely arises – if technology can be used east to west – why not north to south?


    This can be fudged, it just needs some face-saving formula, probably involving regulatory checks on the Irish Sea crossing and electronic declaration for cross-border trade, plus some arm-twisting on the Irish, which the EU are no doubt capable of doing.

    2. The EU's concern that the Chequers customs arrangement isn't practical. They have a genuine point here, it is over-complicated as it stands. This is an essential technical discussion for the negotiating teams, not for grand-standing politicians.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited September 2018
    O/T
    People are very strange sometimes:

    "Cat owners, campaigners and social media users have been left furious after the Metropolitan Police announced the suspected Croydon Cat Killer never existed.
    After three years of investigations and thousands of mutilated cats and other animals, including rabbits, officers have come to the conclusion that it is more likely the animals were hit by cars and then scavenged by foxes.
    However the shock announcement has left members of the public furious and many have shared messages of support to the charity which has been at the forefront of the campaign to find the suspected person responsible for the deaths."

    https://www.croydonadvertiser.co.uk/news/croydon-news/snarl-remains-defiant-after-police-2025723

    Why would people be furious to learn that the cat killer doesn't exist?
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    stodge said:

    Anorak said:

    This is a serious misunderstanding of the British psyche.

    And I say that as an arch-remainer.
    The problem is going to be the anti-European indignation that will erupt in papers like the Mail and the Express and elsewhere. It's going to be tempting for the Prime Minister to jump on that bandwagon, flounce (it didn't go Cameron any harm at the time) and hope the EU will cave or she can go slinking back without being noticed in a few weeks.
    It has diminishing returns. Remember the threats of war with Spain, accusations of meddling in our election, etc. This stuff just doesn't have much potency any more.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962

    John_M said:

    Anorak said:

    Chillax, guys. The two sides are inching towards a deal, which will be broadly based on Chequers but not identical. That's how negotiations work.

    What, you mean we can't all run around hysterically at every nuanced pronouncement? That's just not how these things work, you know.
    If in doubt, run about, scream and shout. Why people pay any attention to public pronouncements (other than the universally wise words on PB, ofc) baffles me.

    My current Bremorse level: nil.
    EU sentiment: Fuck 'em and all who sail with them.
    Well seeing as about 44% of our exports go to "them" then I guess that means a large number of our exporters and their UK employees that rely on them. But hey, as Boris says "Fuck business", fuck everyone that doesn't strut around showing off their narcissistic nationalistic credentials while they hide their miniscule appendages behind their faux patriotism
    And how many of their exports go to “us”?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962
    John_M said:

    Anorak said:

    Chillax, guys. The two sides are inching towards a deal, which will be broadly based on Chequers but not identical. That's how negotiations work.

    What, you mean we can't all run around hysterically at every nuanced pronouncement? That's just not how these things work, you know.
    If in doubt, run about, scream and shout. Why people pay any attention to public pronouncements (other than the universally wise words on PB, ofc) baffles me.

    My current Bremorse level: nil.
    EU sentiment: Fuck 'em and all who sail with them.

    PB Brexit Loon Condition: 2... :D

    (Although I do share the same sentiments)
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    ExiledInScotlandExiledInScotland Posts: 1,505
    edited September 2018
    John_M said:

    Anorak said:

    Chillax, guys. The two sides are inching towards a deal, which will be broadly based on Chequers but not identical. That's how negotiations work.

    What, you mean we can't all run around hysterically at every nuanced pronouncement? That's just not how these things work, you know.
    If in doubt, run about, scream and shout. Why people pay any attention to public pronouncements (other than the universally wise words on PB, ofc) baffles me.

    My current Bremorse level: nil.
    EU sentiment: Fuck 'em and all who sail with them.
    By EU sentiment - do you mean your view of the EU or their view of us?
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,105
    Lessons in the EU Negotiation Style

    (aka 3 Easy Ways to Lose 39 Billion Quid)
  • Options

    The EU's concern that the Chequers customs arrangement isn't practical. They have a genuine point here, it is over-complicated as it stands. This is an essential technical discussion for the negotiating teams, not for grand-standing politicians.

    It's much more than a technical issue, because if the UK can't maintain the illusion of being able to do its own trade deals, a major part of the Brexit coalition crumbles.
  • Options

    As far as I can see, there are two main issues outstanding:

    1. The Irish border, where the main obstacle is the EU's bizarre obsession with the backstop, to the exclusion of discussing what the actual proposed relationship is going to be. As I pointed out a few days ago, and as DD points out today:

    It will be necessary to make particular arrangements at the Northern Ireland ports to control goods from the Rest of the World from entering the EU undetected. We already have special arrangements relating to the regulatory control of issues like the Single Electricity market and agri business and in a free trade arrangement there will be no tariffs. So it is perfectly possible to maintain this invisible border by using and developing existing administrative procedures. We can do this with existing technology although up until recently the European Commission dismissed this as “magical thinking” – that has now changed.

    Not only does the technology already exist, it has been reported this week that the EU would like to deploy it between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. In essence, Michel Barnier is proposing checks away from the border. This is exactly what we proposed to deal with the North-South border. It is great to see that the EU is engaging with innovative solutions. But the question surely arises – if technology can be used east to west – why not north to south?


    This can be fudged, it just needs some face-saving formula, probably involving regulatory checks on the Irish Sea crossing and electronic declaration for cross-border trade, plus some arm-twisting on the Irish, which the EU are no doubt capable of doing.

    2. The EU's concern that the Chequers customs arrangement isn't practical. They have a genuine point here, it is over-complicated as it stands. This is an essential technical discussion for the negotiating teams, not for grand-standing politicians.

    Although I think the whole Brexit project is a pile of horseshit I think the NI border issue could be easy to fix. Anyone crossing the border will just need to ensure they are not carrying anything that is not zero tariffed. If they do they have to declare it. Those that get caught get massive fines. It can work like self-assessment tax. there will be those that risk it, but the infringements will be minimal. maybe that is me being simplistic but if it can work in one bureaucracy why not another?
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    stodge said:

    Chillax, guys. The two sides are inching towards a deal, which will be broadly based on Chequers but not identical. That's how negotiations work.

    Edit: There remains a small risk of an accidental no-deal, but it's less than it was three or four months ago.

    You do realise only you and David Cameron still say "chillax" - the rest of us have almost reached the 2020s.

    I hate it when TSE and others say "Yup" instead of "Yep" :)
    I hate it when people type "Yep" instead of "Yes"!
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    RobD said:

    John_M said:

    Anorak said:

    Chillax, guys. The two sides are inching towards a deal, which will be broadly based on Chequers but not identical. That's how negotiations work.

    What, you mean we can't all run around hysterically at every nuanced pronouncement? That's just not how these things work, you know.
    If in doubt, run about, scream and shout. Why people pay any attention to public pronouncements (other than the universally wise words on PB, ofc) baffles me.

    My current Bremorse level: nil.
    EU sentiment: Fuck 'em and all who sail with them.

    PB Brexit Loon Condition: 2... :D

    (Although I do share the same sentiments)
    Does PBBLC:1 entail nuking Brussels until the frites glow in the dark?
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962

    The EU's concern that the Chequers customs arrangement isn't practical. They have a genuine point here, it is over-complicated as it stands. This is an essential technical discussion for the negotiating teams, not for grand-standing politicians.

    It's much more than a technical issue, because if the UK can't maintain the illusion of being able to do its own trade deals, a major part of the Brexit coalition crumbles.
    I thought the main driver was free movement of people? Can’t recall the breakdown off the top of my head though.
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    AndyJS said:

    O/T
    People are very strange sometimes:

    "Cat owners, campaigners and social media users have been left furious after the Metropolitan Police announced the suspected Croydon Cat Killer never existed.
    After three years of investigations and thousands of mutilated cats and other animals, including rabbits, officers have come to the conclusion that it is more likely the animals were hit by cars and then scavenged by foxes.
    However the shock announcement has left members of the public furious and many have shared messages of support to the charity which has been at the forefront of the campaign to find the suspected person responsible for the deaths."

    https://www.croydonadvertiser.co.uk/news/croydon-news/snarl-remains-defiant-after-police-2025723

    Why would people be furious to learn that the cat killer doesn't exist?

    Deep state.
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    The EU's concern that the Chequers customs arrangement isn't practical. They have a genuine point here, it is over-complicated as it stands. This is an essential technical discussion for the negotiating teams, not for grand-standing politicians.

    It's much more than a technical issue, because if the UK can't maintain the illusion of being able to do its own trade deals, a major part of the Brexit coalition crumbles.
    True. The key to resolving it is in your word 'illusion'.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    May cracking up in the presser.

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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    TGOHF said:

    May cracking up in the presser.

    As in "can't contain her laughter", or as in "incoming breakdown"?
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    RobD said:

    John_M said:

    Anorak said:

    Chillax, guys. The two sides are inching towards a deal, which will be broadly based on Chequers but not identical. That's how negotiations work.

    What, you mean we can't all run around hysterically at every nuanced pronouncement? That's just not how these things work, you know.
    If in doubt, run about, scream and shout. Why people pay any attention to public pronouncements (other than the universally wise words on PB, ofc) baffles me.

    My current Bremorse level: nil.
    EU sentiment: Fuck 'em and all who sail with them.
    Well seeing as about 44% of our exports go to "them" then I guess that means a large number of our exporters and their UK employees that rely on them. But hey, as Boris says "Fuck business", fuck everyone that doesn't strut around showing off their narcissistic nationalistic credentials while they hide their miniscule appendages behind their faux patriotism
    And how many of their exports go to “us”?
    Quite a lot. But that won't replace the jobs that will be lost by the headbanger's solution. These little people's jobs are expendable in the eyes of the Brexit purist (and those like Boris and Rees-Mogg who have other forms of income) and their sacrifice will be worth it for the post Brexit Utopia in about 2068 or thereabouts.
This discussion has been closed.