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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Salzburg: Betting across a range of relevant political markets

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited September 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Salzburg: Betting across a range of relevant political markets has hardly moved

Given the enormity of what’s happened at the EU Salzburg summit I though it useful to look at reaction across a range of market on the Betfair exchange:

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited September 2018
    Well, people already knew CHequers was a no go. Waiting to see if May bends further, if the Tories let her, and what happens in the chaos if they don't or they cannot get CHequers-Lite through.

    I have small amounts on May to leave in 2018 and Labour most seats in a GE.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    TMay surviving the Conservative Party Conference? Put 300 PCP in close proximity away from Westminster - Et Tu Boris, Jeremy, Michael, Philip,.....

  • Well No Deal bequeathes Jeremy Corbyn as PM.

    Rejoice.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092
    Seems it was all priced in.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited September 2018

    Well No Deal bequeathes Jeremy Corbyn as PM.

    Rejoice.

    Does not anything lighter than Chequers also do that? It splits the Tories, leading to no deal or referendum or GE, which he would win over a Tory party at war with itself.

    Pile on Corbyn as PM (within reason, he is still very unappealing to many)
  • Theresa has one last card to play. Go on TV, look the camera straight on and say 'I've had enough. A Brexit deal is impossible. Hard Brexit it is. You, the British public, voted for it. Now suck up the consequences.' She would look honest and frank.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    Quite the switch there, I suspect there will be further turns. The EU are playing very hard ball, successfully so far, but the government and opposition have to respond to the latest developments and things could well radically alter.
  • kle4 said:

    Well No Deal bequeathes Jeremy Corbyn as PM.

    Rejoice.

    Does not anything lighter than Chequers also do that? It splits the Tories, leading to no deal or referendum or GE, which he would win over a Tory party at war with itself.

    Pile on Corbyn as PM (within reason, he is still very unappealing to many)
    As someone who views Brexit and Corbyn as two cheeks of the same arse it is a profoundly depressing thought.
  • FPT

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited September 2018

    Well No Deal bequeathes Jeremy Corbyn as PM.

    Rejoice.

    If it does it would only be a Corbyn propped up by the LDs and SNP and bulldozed over by Brussels as he crawls back to the negotiating table and has to accept whatever they dictate to him while his economic policies wreck even more havoc on the economy and with Leader of the Opposition Boris Johnson sitting on a 15 point Tory lead within a year
  • FPT

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    Wow! Fair play to you.

    That is the problem, it takes two to tango and May has bent over backwards to be accomodating. The EU just wants the UK to be supplicants and take whatever gruel they deem fit to give us - that isn't a negotiation and it isn't a deal.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    Good grief that people’s vote ad is dreadful. Blink for 4 seconds and you miss it.

    After a full minute of utter guff.

    Remain have learned nothing, have they?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    FPT

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    Big G those were probably British civil servants. Is Frau Merkel not a woman?

    This is what Brexit is all about. Destructive on all sides. Welcome to your fellow countrymen.
  • I have been saying for weeks EU preparing ground for no deal++ spin war, their strategy is actively seeking a 2nd in out vote in Britain, aided and abetted by PeoplesVote traitors and quislings here in UK. Is there anyone left who doubts this now?

    Have we been too soft on the EUs PeoplesVote quislings?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Theresa has one last card to play. Go on TV, look the camera straight on and say 'I've had enough. A Brexit deal is impossible. Hard Brexit it is. You, the British public, voted for it. Now suck up the consequences.' She would look honest and frank.

    48 percent of people would go "no we didn't"
  • F*ck the EU. F*ck them all.

    No deal it is. I don’t care about the “consequence” or if it leads to Corbyn or eventually to us rejoining, that will at least be our choice.

    No-one deserves that sort of treatment and public humiliation.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    Theresa has one last card to play. Go on TV, look the camera straight on and say 'I've had enough. A Brexit deal is impossible. Hard Brexit it is. You, the British public, voted for it. Now suck up the consequences.' She would look honest and frank.

    I might suggest it not be phrased quite like that, but she made a big play that she had offered all she could to the EU. They either don't believe her or they don't care as they would rather take the hit of no deal than compromise in the way they are being asked. May needs to walk away and essentially make the statement you suggest, or step down for someone who will walk away (in this context that could mean no deal or moving to a much harder, simpler deal). After all, while she might have been bluffing a bit that she had nowiggle room on her Chequers offer, she was not bluffing that, broadly speaking, it was the best she could offer the EU. Indeed, it was far from clear she could offer it to them given how opposed people were to it.

    If and when that approach does not fly with the Commons/public, we can all move on to contemplating other options.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    I have been saying for weeks EU preparing ground for no deal++ spin war, their strategy is actively seeking a 2nd in out vote in Britain, aided and abetted by PeoplesVote traitors and quislings here in UK. Is there anyone left who doubts this now?

    Have we been too soft on the EUs PeoplesVote quislings?

    Few beers?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    kle4 said:

    Well, people already knew CHequers was a no go. Waiting to see if May bends further, if the Tories let her, and what happens in the chaos if they don't or they cannot get CHequers-Lite through.

    I have small amounts on May to leave in 2018 and Labour most seats in a GE.

    Her best hope now is to do a BINO single market and customs union in all but name to get the withdrawal agreement and transition deal and try and resurrect Chequers in the FTA negotiations in the transition
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    edited September 2018

    Have we been too soft on the EUs PeoplesVote quislings?

    Calling us saboteurs and traitors worked so well for you last time.
  • Reading between the lines, it appears Mrs May's (lack of) people skills caused this.
  • Minutes after we walk away saying no deal.

    Currently we've been saying "please sir, we need a deal sir, what will you give us sir" so there's been no need for them to do so.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069

    FPT

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    She set herself up to fail by having a tin ear. For 2 years the EU has rejected Cakeism, yet she seems unable to understand that simple point.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    kle4 said:

    Well No Deal bequeathes Jeremy Corbyn as PM.

    Rejoice.

    Does not anything lighter than Chequers also do that? It splits the Tories, leading to no deal or referendum or GE, which he would win over a Tory party at war with itself.

    Pile on Corbyn as PM (within reason, he is still very unappealing to many)
    As someone who views Brexit and Corbyn as two cheeks of the same arse it is a profoundly depressing thought.
    Well it is no consolation but I am sorry.
  • FPT

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    Dry your eyes. Theresa should never have manoeuvred herself into a position where she could be humiliated and crushed. It's called statecraft. Perhaps Boris with his love of the Trump school of diplomacy should be given a go - he surely couldn't do any worse than Theresa's insipid failure.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    Reading between the lines, it appears Mrs May's (lack of) people skills caused this.

    I don't buy that. Complex, high level technical points failed because May is not a chummy person?
  • I have been saying for weeks EU preparing ground for no deal++ spin war, their strategy is actively seeking a 2nd in out vote in Britain, aided and abetted by PeoplesVote traitors and quislings here in UK. Is there anyone left who doubts this now?

    Have we been too soft on the EUs PeoplesVote quislings?

    Actually is what Boris Johnson proposed before the referendum.

    So is Boris a Quisling?
  • Alistair said:

    Theresa has one last card to play. Go on TV, look the camera straight on and say 'I've had enough. A Brexit deal is impossible. Hard Brexit it is. You, the British public, voted for it. Now suck up the consequences.' She would look honest and frank.

    48 percent of people would go "no we didn't"
    They lost. Britain as a nation has made its decision.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,037
    edited September 2018

    FPT

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    This is not the EU's fault - it is 100% our fault. We need to suck it up. Also special mention to the Conservative party. What a bunch of duplicitous lying scum they are. The one silver lining from this calamity is that the Conservative party *could* die a death. Good riddance to bad rubbish I say - they certainly deserve to!
  • kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Well No Deal bequeathes Jeremy Corbyn as PM.

    Rejoice.

    Does not anything lighter than Chequers also do that? It splits the Tories, leading to no deal or referendum or GE, which he would win over a Tory party at war with itself.

    Pile on Corbyn as PM (within reason, he is still very unappealing to many)
    As someone who views Brexit and Corbyn as two cheeks of the same arse it is a profoundly depressing thought.
    Well it is no consolation but I am sorry.
    I bear no ill will to the voters.

    My ill will is solely aimed at the Leave campaigners who said this would be easy and there'd be no disruption replete with only sunlit uplands.

    They'll be spoken in the same breath as the appeasers of the 1930s.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469

    FPT

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    TMay has been so warm and welcoming forgetting of course, it takes 2,or in this case 28, to tango. Incompetent Home Secretary utterly incompetent PM. The Men in Grey are due in No 10...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Foxy said:

    FPT

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    She set herself up to fail by having a tin ear. For 2 years the EU has rejected Cakeism, yet she seems unable to understand that simple point.
    In the same way they don't understand why their oh so generous offer to 'de-dramatise' the Irish border issue was rebuffed and so responded with petulance to so called 'aggressive' comments despite their own stern language, according to a report posted earlier?

    But of course it is only ever the UK that doesn't understand something, never the EU. And its totally unfair of us to ask for things, in a negotiation, but totally ok for them to ask for things.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    FPT

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    Well, well done to you.

    It’s not easy all this, it’s all shades of grey. We all potentially have things to lose. But my belief is based on maintaining our freedom, and the ability to clearly fire those who rule us. Without that we are all doomed whatever.


    Hopefully some deal will emerge, but if they really are playing this way in the EU. and it’s not some negotiating charade, well I’d walk. It won’t be easy for a bit if they wish to act the way they are, but I value my ability to sack my rulers too much.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    Alistair said:

    Theresa has one last card to play. Go on TV, look the camera straight on and say 'I've had enough. A Brexit deal is impossible. Hard Brexit it is. You, the British public, voted for it. Now suck up the consequences.' She would look honest and frank.

    48 percent of people would go "no we didn't"
    To be precise, 48% of those voting 27 months ago would say that. We do not know whether that figure has changed.

    Ted Heath famously asked the question "Who governs Britain?", and got the answer "not you!"
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    edited September 2018
    TOPPING said:

    FPT

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    Big G those were probably British civil servants. Is Frau Merkel not a woman?

    This is what Brexit is all about. Destructive on all sides. Welcome to your fellow countrymen.
    The leaders photograph consisted of virtual all men, ex Merkel and May, and the subsequent photo of TM standing by the side while a pack of men descended on her has infuriated my wife. There were no civil servants in the pictures

    And I did say men in the main

    And as for Tusk offering her a cake tray with no cherries was just childish and unworthy of his Office. I know who the grown up and it is not Tusk, Junckers or the EU
  • Well No Deal bequeathes Jeremy Corbyn as PM.

    Rejoice.

    Why does it? Explain yourself! Explain how Britain leaving with a no deal++ means something cataclysmic happening over night? Does Britain get sucked off the earth into a cosmic void, or, even more dramatic than that some of Project fear comes to pass? The threats to Britain from Brexit have always been long term slow burners, the travesty here is remainers neither understand or can articulate that.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    kle4 said:

    Reading between the lines, it appears Mrs May's (lack of) people skills caused this.

    I don't buy that. Complex, high level technical points failed because May is not a chummy person?
    Selmayr spin, IIRC.

    Europe are not negotiating in good faith. No deal it is, then...
  • F*ck the EU. F*ck them all.

    No deal it is. I don’t care about the “consequence” or if it leads to Corbyn or eventually to us rejoining, that will at least be our choice.

    No-one deserves that sort of treatment and public humiliation.

    +1
  • kle4 said:

    Reading between the lines, it appears Mrs May's (lack of) people skills caused this.

    I don't buy that. Complex, high level technical points failed because May is not a chummy person?
    She misread the mood of them with her article and approach.

    A PM at the top of her game would have had her Foreign Secretary there with her.

    Was Raab there today?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Well No Deal bequeathes Jeremy Corbyn as PM.

    Rejoice.

    Does not anything lighter than Chequers also do that? It splits the Tories, leading to no deal or referendum or GE, which he would win over a Tory party at war with itself.

    Pile on Corbyn as PM (within reason, he is still very unappealing to many)
    As someone who views Brexit and Corbyn as two cheeks of the same arse it is a profoundly depressing thought.
    Well it is no consolation but I am sorry.
    I bear no ill will to the voters.

    My ill will is solely aimed at the Leave campaigners who said this would be easy and there'd be no disruption replete with only sunlit uplands.

    They'll be spoken in the same breath as the appeasers of the 1930s.
    That I do not know, but while my own predictions of how hard it would be have been, despite thinking it would be hard, woefully optimistic, anyone who said it would be easy and without some cost was at best very very wrong.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    FPT

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    What has gender got to do with it? This is a failure of British diplomacy or a tin ear at no10, probably both.
  • F*ck the EU. F*ck them all.

    No deal it is. I don’t care about the “consequence” or if it leads to Corbyn or eventually to us rejoining, that will at least be our choice.

    No-one deserves that sort of treatment and public humiliation.

    I did try to warn you this process would be a completely unnecessary humiliation...
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469

    F*ck the EU. F*ck them all.

    No deal it is. I don’t care about the “consequence” or if it leads to Corbyn or eventually to us rejoining, that will at least be our choice.

    No-one deserves that sort of treatment and public humiliation.

    +1
    And who will be the one to put TMay out of her misery?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    HYUFD said:

    Well No Deal bequeathes Jeremy Corbyn as PM.

    Rejoice.

    If it does it would only be a Corbyn propped up by the LDs and SNP and bulldozed over by Brussels as he crawls back to the negotiating table and has to accept whatever they dictate to him while his economic policies wreck even more havoc on the economy and with Leader of the Opposition Boris Johnson sitting on a 15 point Tory lead within a year
    Why would Corbyn feel the need to negotiate with Brussels? He could simply take over in the wake of a No Deal Brexit and carry on with his domestic policies. Why would he want to be tied to any rules imposed by the EU?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    kle4 said:

    Reading between the lines, it appears Mrs May's (lack of) people skills caused this.

    I don't buy that. Complex, high level technical points failed because May is not a chummy person?
    She misread the mood of them with her article and approach.

    A PM at the top of her game would have had her Foreign Secretary there with her.

    Was Raab there today?
    I don't know, but I still don't buy that explanation because the other mood music has been all about how the EU is, in a principled if stubborn fashion, sticking rigidly to what it considers a red line and has done so all along and this proposal compromised that from the start and was never going to be acceptable. They have just now been very clear in saying so.

    If the proposal violates a fundamental principle for the EU then her lack of people skills was irrelevant to the proposals being rejected, and at most affected the tone of the dismissal of her proposal surely? And that being the case a harsher dismissal is even better than a teasing fudge, since it means future attempts to kick the can are limited since there is the thinnest of hopes this type of deal can be made, and so we can think about others now.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    Mortimer said:

    kle4 said:

    Reading between the lines, it appears Mrs May's (lack of) people skills caused this.

    I don't buy that. Complex, high level technical points failed because May is not a chummy person?
    Selmayr spin, IIRC.

    Europe are not negotiating in good faith. No deal it is, then...
    The EU do not have to negotiate in anyone's good faith, we were the idiots who wanted out...
  • This is incendiary: https://www.annblack.co.uk/reports_of_meetings/nec-meeting-18-september-2018/

    "For me the next decision was one of the most shameful that the NEC has made."

    "the Momentum members, with 60% of the vote, now control 100% of the seats, and the message to the other 40% is that they do not deserve a voice"

    "our inboxes are clogged with a tiny percentage of the half-million members, egged on by Momentum... a significant number of members hate Labour MPs, individually and collectively, especially for trying to get rid of Jeremy in 2016, and would be happy to purge the lot of them"

    "This is not the kinder, gentler politics which Jeremy promised in 2015. The next report, after conference, will be my last as a member of the NEC, and it is now for others to find a way back from the edge."
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    I have been saying for weeks EU preparing ground for no deal++ spin war, their strategy is actively seeking a 2nd in out vote in Britain, aided and abetted by PeoplesVote traitors and quislings here in UK. Is there anyone left who doubts this now?

    Have we been too soft on the EUs PeoplesVote quislings?

    And TSE calls Leavers appeasers!!
  • OchEye said:

    F*ck the EU. F*ck them all.

    No deal it is. I don’t care about the “consequence” or if it leads to Corbyn or eventually to us rejoining, that will at least be our choice.

    No-one deserves that sort of treatment and public humiliation.

    +1
    And who will be the one to put TMay out of her misery?
    Why - do not underestimate her resilience - that has been the mistake of so many
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069

    Alistair said:

    Theresa has one last card to play. Go on TV, look the camera straight on and say 'I've had enough. A Brexit deal is impossible. Hard Brexit it is. You, the British public, voted for it. Now suck up the consequences.' She would look honest and frank.

    48 percent of people would go "no we didn't"
    They lost. Britain as a nation has made its decision.
    But it was far from a unanimous decision. Democracy is not just a dictatorship of a narrow majority, it requires listening to minority views.
  • HYUFD said:

    I have been saying for weeks EU preparing ground for no deal++ spin war, their strategy is actively seeking a 2nd in out vote in Britain, aided and abetted by PeoplesVote traitors and quislings here in UK. Is there anyone left who doubts this now?

    Have we been too soft on the EUs PeoplesVote quislings?

    And TSE calls Leavers appeasers!!
    No, I said they'll be spoken in the same contemptuous way as the appeasers of the 1930s, who also wrought a humiliation on the country.
  • Has anyone considered the merits of a referendum in Northern Ireland, to allow the people to choose which side of the customs border they would like to be on?

    It seems inevitable now that there will either be customs border down the Irish Sea, or between Ulster and the Republic, so why not put it to a vote?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    OchEye said:

    Mortimer said:

    kle4 said:

    Reading between the lines, it appears Mrs May's (lack of) people skills caused this.

    I don't buy that. Complex, high level technical points failed because May is not a chummy person?
    Selmayr spin, IIRC.

    Europe are not negotiating in good faith. No deal it is, then...
    The EU do not have to negotiate in anyone's good faith, we were the idiots who wanted out...
    It's in their interests to strike a deal too, they have been clear on that. If it weren't, they wouldn't negotiate at all, in good or bad faith. It isn't a favour to us to negotiate something. No they don't need to cross what they think is a red line to get a deal, but both sides will clearly be game playing (because it is a negotiation after all), and if they play it badly that isn't good for them either in the end.
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    welshowl said:

    FPT

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    Well, well done to you.

    It’s not easy all this, it’s all shades of grey. We all potentially have things to lose. But my belief is based on maintaining our freedom, and the ability to clearly fire those who rule us. Without that we are all doomed whatever.


    Hopefully some deal will emerge, but if they really are playing this way in the EU. and it’s not some negotiating charade, well I’d walk. It won’t be easy for a bit if they wish to act the way they are, but I value my ability to sack my rulers too much.
    Do you really believe we are going to be free at the end of this?
  • OchEye said:

    FPT

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    TMay has been so warm and welcoming forgetting of course, it takes 2,or in this case 28, to tango. Incompetent Home Secretary utterly incompetent PM. The Men in Grey are due in No 10...
    Maybe the not spelling out what Brexit deal we wanted for so long, and late in the day bouncing her cabinet into a bit of a fudge might not go down well in history books. But then, in the same books, a contributor from the May camp would argue, the issues and sticking points were long known, who else published something trying to answer them?
  • Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    Well No Deal bequeathes Jeremy Corbyn as PM.

    Rejoice.

    If it does it would only be a Corbyn propped up by the LDs and SNP and bulldozed over by Brussels as he crawls back to the negotiating table and has to accept whatever they dictate to him while his economic policies wreck even more havoc on the economy and with Leader of the Opposition Boris Johnson sitting on a 15 point Tory lead within a year
    Why would Corbyn feel the need to negotiate with Brussels? He could simply take over in the wake of a No Deal Brexit and carry on with his domestic policies. Why would he want to be tied to any rules imposed by the EU?
    Indeed, being in the Single Market would prevent some of Corbyn's more left wing policies being enacted.

    Thatcher was a visionary when she created the Single Market.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469

    kle4 said:

    Reading between the lines, it appears Mrs May's (lack of) people skills caused this.

    I don't buy that. Complex, high level technical points failed because May is not a chummy person?
    She misread the mood of them with her article and approach.

    A PM at the top of her game would have had her Foreign Secretary there with her.

    Was Raab there today?
    Raab is Foreign Secretary? I thought that was Hunt, the forgetter of his wife's origin and half a dozen flats ownership ....
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    Has anyone considered the merits of a referendum in Northern Ireland, to allow the people to choose which side of the customs border they would like to be on?

    It seems inevitable now that there will either be customs border down the Irish Sea, or between Ulster and the Republic, so why not put it to a vote?

    Wasn't something like that part of a UK fudge on the irish issue, to suggest some vague customs arrangement, so long as it was agreed by the communities? The purpose of which would presumably be to say to the EU - look your backstop is agreed, and to the communities - but you do not have to actually enforce it?
  • Jonathan said:

    FPT

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    What has gender got to do with it? This is a failure of British diplomacy or a tin ear at no10, probably both.
    The pictures show a pack of men humiliating a lone woman and getting pleasure in it. The picture showing on Sky news is a dreadful look for the EU
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469

    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    Well No Deal bequeathes Jeremy Corbyn as PM.

    Rejoice.

    If it does it would only be a Corbyn propped up by the LDs and SNP and bulldozed over by Brussels as he crawls back to the negotiating table and has to accept whatever they dictate to him while his economic policies wreck even more havoc on the economy and with Leader of the Opposition Boris Johnson sitting on a 15 point Tory lead within a year
    Why would Corbyn feel the need to negotiate with Brussels? He could simply take over in the wake of a No Deal Brexit and carry on with his domestic policies. Why would he want to be tied to any rules imposed by the EU?
    Indeed, being in the Single Market would prevent some of Corbyn's more left wing policies being enacted.

    Thatcher was a visionary when she created the Single Market.
    ?
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    FPT

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    I honestly am finding this point of view hard to understand. Would it really have been better for anyone if the EU had kept stringing May along with a false hope that Chequers would work, until they rejected it in November?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,960

    OchEye said:

    FPT

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    TMay has been so warm and welcoming forgetting of course, it takes 2,or in this case 28, to tango. Incompetent Home Secretary utterly incompetent PM. The Men in Grey are due in No 10...
    Maybe the not spelling out what Brexit deal we wanted for so long, and late in the day bouncing her cabinet into a bit of a fudge might not go down well in history books. But then, in the same books, a contributor from the May camp would argue, the issues and sticking points were long known, who else published something trying to answer them?
    Perhaps history will be kind on those who said No Deal was the only possible deal achievable with the EU.....
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Foxy said:

    Alistair said:

    Theresa has one last card to play. Go on TV, look the camera straight on and say 'I've had enough. A Brexit deal is impossible. Hard Brexit it is. You, the British public, voted for it. Now suck up the consequences.' She would look honest and frank.

    48 percent of people would go "no we didn't"
    They lost. Britain as a nation has made its decision.
    But it was far from a unanimous decision. Democracy is not just a dictatorship of a narrow majority, it requires listening to minority views.
    Nor did all Leavers want a hard brexit, but we are now at a point where hard brexit is on the table, very on the table, and very hard a table as well. It's time to see if it can get through the Commons and the EU. If it cannot, well then it is time for further discussion.
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    Jonathan said:

    FPT

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    What has gender got to do with it? This is a failure of British diplomacy or a tin ear at no10, probably both.
    Even the diplomatic service can't polish a turd. It was clear that the proposal wasn't going to work.

  • Enough is enough. To see Tories on here pleading for Theresa to be given sympathy is cringe making. As for playing the gender card - did Maggie ever need protecting from all those beastly bullying men? This just shows how low Brexit has dragged Britain and the standards expected of politicians - to the abject.
  • He'll be back in in a few days.
  • Has anyone considered the merits of a referendum in Northern Ireland, to allow the people to choose which side of the customs border they would like to be on?

    It seems inevitable now that there will either be customs border down the Irish Sea, or between Ulster and the Republic, so why not put it to a vote?

    There was a referendum in Ireland which forms the basis of the constitutional settlement there and it has broadly brought peace to what was a troubled part of these islands.
  • OchEye said:

    FPT

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    TMay has been so warm and welcoming forgetting of course, it takes 2,or in this case 28, to tango. Incompetent Home Secretary utterly incompetent PM. The Men in Grey are due in No 10...
    Maybe the not spelling out what Brexit deal we wanted for so long, and late in the day bouncing her cabinet into a bit of a fudge might not go down well in history books. But then, in the same books, a contributor from the May camp would argue, the issues and sticking points were long known, who else published something trying to answer them?
    Perhaps history will be kind on those who said No Deal was the only possible deal achievable with the EU.....
    Won't be kind on Gove, Boris, et al who said No Deal was just Project Fear.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    OchEye said:

    F*ck the EU. F*ck them all.

    No deal it is. I don’t care about the “consequence” or if it leads to Corbyn or eventually to us rejoining, that will at least be our choice.

    No-one deserves that sort of treatment and public humiliation.

    +1
    And who will be the one to put TMay out of her misery?
    Why - do not underestimate her resilience - that has been the mistake of so many
    I have appreciated her resilience and her efforts to cobble something together that threaded a fine line between what the EU wants, what most leavers can accept and how much disruption remainers can accept.

    But she has failed, and her staying on is not helping any more, even if, ugh, it means Boris gets a chance to attempt something.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535
    edited September 2018
    It's genuinely perplexing to me that I could spot the problems with Chequers almost immediately (the indivisible four freedoms), as could many other people on here, but apparently virtually the entire bloody government could not.

    I simply do not understand how anyone thought that Chequers would be acceptable. You have to assume that the EU negotiators are lying about the four freedoms, and there is no evidence to think that they are.

    I think the EU similarly seems to fail to understand the governments position on Northern Ireland. May is not kidding on that one either.

    Lord knows where we are now.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    Well No Deal bequeathes Jeremy Corbyn as PM.

    Rejoice.

    If it does it would only be a Corbyn propped up by the LDs and SNP and bulldozed over by Brussels as he crawls back to the negotiating table and has to accept whatever they dictate to him while his economic policies wreck even more havoc on the economy and with Leader of the Opposition Boris Johnson sitting on a 15 point Tory lead within a year
    Why would Corbyn feel the need to negotiate with Brussels? He could simply take over in the wake of a No Deal Brexit and carry on with his domestic policies. Why would he want to be tied to any rules imposed by the EU?
    Great, if Corbyn wants full hard Brexit and implementing his tax and spend policies too we can probably add 5 points to the Boris lead I mentioned earlier to give a 20 point Tory lead within a year as we head for near bankruptcy and sky high inflation and a recession
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,307

    F*ck the EU. F*ck them all.

    No deal it is. I don’t care about the “consequence” or if it leads to Corbyn or eventually to us rejoining, that will at least be our choice.

    No-one deserves that sort of treatment and public humiliation.

    +1
    bluster.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    Has anyone considered the merits of a referendum in Northern Ireland, to allow the people to choose which side of the customs border they would like to be on?

    It seems inevitable now that there will either be customs border down the Irish Sea, or between Ulster and the Republic, so why not put it to a vote?

    WE need one for Scotland for sure
  • kle4 said:

    Reading between the lines, it appears Mrs May's (lack of) people skills caused this.

    I don't buy that. Complex, high level technical points failed because May is not a chummy person?
    She misread the mood of them with her article and approach.

    A PM at the top of her game would have had her Foreign Secretary there with her.

    Was Raab there today?
    Raab is Brexit Sec.

    Hunt is Foreign Sec.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    OchEye said:

    kle4 said:

    Reading between the lines, it appears Mrs May's (lack of) people skills caused this.

    I don't buy that. Complex, high level technical points failed because May is not a chummy person?
    She misread the mood of them with her article and approach.

    A PM at the top of her game would have had her Foreign Secretary there with her.

    Was Raab there today?
    Raab is Foreign Secretary? I thought that was Hunt, the forgetter of his wife's origin and half a dozen flats ownership ....
    They are all crap, hard to know what each donkey is aligned to they are all so invisible.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    FPT

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    What has gender got to do with it? This is a failure of British diplomacy or a tin ear at no10, probably both.
    The pictures show a pack of men humiliating a lone woman and getting pleasure in it. The picture showing on Sky news is a dreadful look for the EU
    Merkel might have something to say about that. It’s the shits sitting behind her in the commons that deserve your ire, they are supposed to be on her side.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    F*ck the EU. F*ck them all.

    No deal it is. I don’t care about the “consequence” or if it leads to Corbyn or eventually to us rejoining, that will at least be our choice.

    No-one deserves that sort of treatment and public humiliation.

    I did try to warn you this process would be a completely unnecessary humiliation...
    Not if we walk.

    Now don’t get me wrong a good deal is preferred option, and I still think something will emerge.

    However, I’d walk rather than totally kowtow.

    Today hasn’t been great all round. Two sides woefully sailing past each other in thought and deed. But there again it’s been like that one way or another since 1973, which is why we are where we are.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    OchEye said:

    kle4 said:

    Reading between the lines, it appears Mrs May's (lack of) people skills caused this.

    I don't buy that. Complex, high level technical points failed because May is not a chummy person?
    She misread the mood of them with her article and approach.

    A PM at the top of her game would have had her Foreign Secretary there with her.

    Was Raab there today?
    Raab is Foreign Secretary? I thought that was Hunt, the forgetter of his wife's origin and half a dozen flats ownership ....
    Raab is Brexit Secretary, so should have been there. We know that Hunt is in Myanmar, and did some very impressive diplomacy there.

    Indeed, his being in the Far East is an interesting Macavity act, for a man on manouveres.
  • kle4 said:

    Reading between the lines, it appears Mrs May's (lack of) people skills caused this.

    I don't buy that. Complex, high level technical points failed because May is not a chummy person?
    She misread the mood of them with her article and approach.

    A PM at the top of her game would have had her Foreign Secretary there with her.

    Was Raab there today?
    Raab is Brexit Sec.

    Hunt is Foreign Sec.
    I know, but we know Hunt is in Myanmar today.

    I don't know where Raab was today.
  • kle4 said:

    Has anyone considered the merits of a referendum in Northern Ireland, to allow the people to choose which side of the customs border they would like to be on?

    It seems inevitable now that there will either be customs border down the Irish Sea, or between Ulster and the Republic, so why not put it to a vote?

    Wasn't something like that part of a UK fudge on the irish issue, to suggest some vague customs arrangement, so long as it was agreed by the communities? The purpose of which would presumably be to say to the EU - look your backstop is agreed, and to the communities - but you do not have to actually enforce it?
    Given its impossible to maintain both an open border in Ireland, and simultaneously have no customs border in the Irish Sea, it seems like a decision needs to be taken as to what takes priority. Surely the easiest way to do this is to put it to a vote in NI?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    I have been saying for weeks EU preparing ground for no deal++ spin war, their strategy is actively seeking a 2nd in out vote in Britain, aided and abetted by PeoplesVote traitors and quislings here in UK. Is there anyone left who doubts this now?

    Have we been too soft on the EUs PeoplesVote quislings?

    And TSE calls Leavers appeasers!!
    No, I said they'll be spoken in the same contemptuous way as the appeasers of the 1930s, who also wrought a humiliation on the country.
    Appeasers wanted a deal with the Nazis and to hand over control of the UK to Berlin, while I would not go as far as to compare the EU to Nazis (despite the heritage of Selmayr) diehard Remainers want to hand over democratic control within the UK to Brussels
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    Theresa has one last card to play. Go on TV, look the camera straight on and say 'I've had enough. A Brexit deal is impossible. Hard Brexit it is. You, the British public, voted for it. Now suck up the consequences.' She would look honest and frank.

    Or she could announce she wishes to form a National Government, whilst making it clear that if the leadership of the Opposition do not wish to take part, she will still welcome MPs of all parties that want to help get the best result for the country. With the ultras on all sides thus neutralized, it would at last be possible to determine exactly what the majority of the Commons would find an acceptable outcome for the Brexit process, and negotiate accordingly.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    kle4 said:

    OchEye said:

    Mortimer said:

    kle4 said:

    Reading between the lines, it appears Mrs May's (lack of) people skills caused this.

    I don't buy that. Complex, high level technical points failed because May is not a chummy person?
    Selmayr spin, IIRC.

    Europe are not negotiating in good faith. No deal it is, then...
    The EU do not have to negotiate in anyone's good faith, we were the idiots who wanted out...
    It's in their interests to strike a deal too, they have been clear on that. If it weren't, they wouldn't negotiate at all, in good or bad faith. It isn't a favour to us to negotiate something. No they don't need to cross what they think is a red line to get a deal, but both sides will clearly be game playing (because it is a negotiation after all), and if they play it badly that isn't good for them either in the end.
    The EU works on a series of rules and laws which the UK is trying to circumvent. 28, soon to be 27, do not give a monkeys about a soon to be ex-member, they all have enough problems of their own to deal with, that is why they instruct the EU Commission to deal with it under their instructions.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    rpjs said:

    Theresa has one last card to play. Go on TV, look the camera straight on and say 'I've had enough. A Brexit deal is impossible. Hard Brexit it is. You, the British public, voted for it. Now suck up the consequences.' She would look honest and frank.

    Or she could announce she wishes to form a National Government, whilst making it clear that if the leadership of the Opposition do not wish to take part, she will still welcome MPs of all parties that want to help get the best result for the country. With the ultras on all sides thus neutralized, it would at last be possible to determine exactly what the majority of the Commons would find an acceptable outcome for the Brexit process, and negotiate accordingly.
    Or more realistically MPs from other parties would say "Er, what? No." while all but the most Remainiac Tory MPs got their letters in
  • F*ck the EU. F*ck them all.

    No deal it is. I don’t care about the “consequence” or if it leads to Corbyn or eventually to us rejoining, that will at least be our choice.

    No-one deserves that sort of treatment and public humiliation.

    I did try to warn you this process would be a completely unnecessary humiliation...
    And it didn’t need emoticons on that sentence for us to see you raotflyfao.
  • FPT

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    I honestly am finding this point of view hard to understand. Would it really have been better for anyone if the EU had kept stringing May along with a false hope that Chequers would work, until they rejected it in November?
    It was the way they did it and to be honest I cannot see the public accepting anything other than the EU are to blame if we no deal
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    Foxy said:

    OchEye said:

    kle4 said:

    Reading between the lines, it appears Mrs May's (lack of) people skills caused this.

    I don't buy that. Complex, high level technical points failed because May is not a chummy person?
    She misread the mood of them with her article and approach.

    A PM at the top of her game would have had her Foreign Secretary there with her.

    Was Raab there today?
    Raab is Foreign Secretary? I thought that was Hunt, the forgetter of his wife's origin and half a dozen flats ownership ....
    Raab is Brexit Secretary, so should have been there. We know that Hunt is in Myanmar, and did some very impressive diplomacy there.

    Indeed, his being in the Far East is an interesting Macavity act, for a man on manouveres.
    Hunt is so tied to Chequers he has it wrapped around his navel, if Chequers goes down he goes down with it
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697

    kle4 said:

    Reading between the lines, it appears Mrs May's (lack of) people skills caused this.

    I don't buy that. Complex, high level technical points failed because May is not a chummy person?
    She misread the mood of them with her article and approach.

    A PM at the top of her game would have had her Foreign Secretary there with her.

    Was Raab there today?
    Raab is Brexit Sec.

    Hunt is Foreign Sec.
    I know, but we know Hunt is in Myanmar today.

    I don't know where Raab was today.
    He was on LBC last night with Iain Dale (and did rather well actually)
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,960

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Well No Deal bequeathes Jeremy Corbyn as PM.

    Rejoice.

    Does not anything lighter than Chequers also do that? It splits the Tories, leading to no deal or referendum or GE, which he would win over a Tory party at war with itself.

    Pile on Corbyn as PM (within reason, he is still very unappealing to many)
    As someone who views Brexit and Corbyn as two cheeks of the same arse it is a profoundly depressing thought.
    Well it is no consolation but I am sorry.
    I bear no ill will to the voters.

    My ill will is solely aimed at the Leave campaigners who said this would be easy and there'd be no disruption replete with only sunlit uplands.

    They'll be spoken in the same breath as the appeasers of the 1930s.
    *Bullshit Klaxon*
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    welshowl said:

    F*ck the EU. F*ck them all.

    No deal it is. I don’t care about the “consequence” or if it leads to Corbyn or eventually to us rejoining, that will at least be our choice.

    No-one deserves that sort of treatment and public humiliation.

    I did try to warn you this process would be a completely unnecessary humiliation...
    Today hasn’t been great all round. Two sides woefully sailing past each other in thought and deed. But there again it’s been like that one way or another since 1973, which is why we are where we are.
    That really is the rub of the issue. Unrealistic our offer may or may not have been - even May's own party wasn't on board with it after all - but we ended up voting out because the EU's words and actions too often don't seem to understand us either (It isn't because we are uniquely beastly, since there are any number of examples in the EU of extreme and unpleasant people and parties doing well).

    I'd probably vote remain in a second referendum as I lack the spine and stomach for a continued fight, but trying to be objective about things (I said 'try', not always successively) if one approach has failed its surely better to acknowledge it and try something else at least, and the EU at least closed a door firmly today rather than being too mealy mouthed about it.
  • Has anyone considered the merits of a referendum in Northern Ireland, to allow the people to choose which side of the customs border they would like to be on?

    It seems inevitable now that there will either be customs border down the Irish Sea, or between Ulster and the Republic, so why not put it to a vote?

    There was a referendum in Ireland which forms the basis of the constitutional settlement there and it has broadly brought peace to what was a troubled part of these islands.
    But that settlement is based on both the UK and Ireland being members of the single market and customs union. This is about to be smashed to smithereens.

    I think there would be a strong majority in NI for staying in both of these arrangements, while also remaining part of the United Kingdom. In effect the EU backstop really does allow Ulster to 'have it's cake and eat it', just not the rest of the UK. If this passes by a referendum, the decision carries democratic weight.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    FPT

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    I honestly am finding this point of view hard to understand. Would it really have been better for anyone if the EU had kept stringing May along with a false hope that Chequers would work, until they rejected it in November?
    It was the way they did it and to be honest I cannot see the public accepting anything other than the EU are to blame if we no deal
    The blame game. Brilliant. Well done. Is that the depths we’ve got to.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    FPT

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    I honestly am finding this point of view hard to understand. Would it really have been better for anyone if the EU had kept stringing May along with a false hope that Chequers would work, until they rejected it in November?
    It was the way they did it and to be honest I cannot see the public accepting anything other than the EU are to blame if we no deal
    Though I think Mr Stodge was being atypically simplistic and harsh on May earlier I think he was right that the public, or a significant portion of it, would always be inclined to blame the EU for no deal, and that the government will do all it can to maximise that feeling. It will need to, if it is to get through the next few months.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    rpjs said:

    Theresa has one last card to play. Go on TV, look the camera straight on and say 'I've had enough. A Brexit deal is impossible. Hard Brexit it is. You, the British public, voted for it. Now suck up the consequences.' She would look honest and frank.

    Or she could announce she wishes to form a National Government, whilst making it clear that if the leadership of the Opposition do not wish to take part, she will still welcome MPs of all parties that want to help get the best result for the country. With the ultras on all sides thus neutralized, it would at last be possible to determine exactly what the majority of the Commons would find an acceptable outcome for the Brexit process, and negotiate accordingly.
    She will be voted out within 24 hours by the Tories of all sides, have a motion of no confidence by all parties, including the DUP, and utter humiliation...
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