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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The polling suggests that Corbyn’s onto a winner backing onshore wind power and solar

YouGov August 2018

Read the full story here

JosiasJessop

First.

Onshore wind leads to obvious arguments about protection of the rural landscape. In some places it is fine - from the hill near my house I can see the Cotton Farm windfarm, built on the site of an old WWII airfield. Although it was protested against locally, it isn't exactly 'special' land - essentially a brownfield site.

I do ave big issues with turbines in upland areas, where massive haul roads have to be dug into hillsides to create tracks through which the turbines can be got to the top. This, and the necessary network of tracks on the top, can never be made good again.

JosiasJessop

Also, there seems to be an unfairness in terms of location. Stand on the top of Honey Hill in Northamptonshire (just south of the A14) and you can see many distinct windfarms and individual wind turbines. Yet go to equally-hilly Oxfordshire and there are virtually none.

The only reason for this can really be the effective power of NIMBYs.

AlastairMeeks

Beneath the waves of Brexit and anti-Semitism, Labour are sharpening up their retail offer very effectively. When they turn their minds again to the question of persuading the public rather than the question of party control, they may well get another sugar rush boost of enthusiasm in their support.

tpfkar

AlastairMeeks said:

Beneath the waves of Brexit and anti-Semitism, Labour are sharpening up their retail offer very effectively. When they turn their minds again to the question of persuading the public rather than the question of party control, they may well get another sugar rush boost of enthusiasm in their support.

I agree; John McDonnell aside, this is a party with a keen eye on what a retail offer looks like. This feels a more purposeful Labour party than the rabble we've seen at times in the past two years.

However I think that on Brexit, everything they've done this week is what the Tories wanted them to.

tpfkar

On topic, we've invested in a local community energy project, solar panels on local community buildings and a fund to support energy use locally. Good investment so far and we'd go in again.

IanB2

JosiasJessop said:

First.

Onshore wind leads to obvious arguments about protection of the rural landscape. In some places it is fine - from the hill near my house I can see the Cotton Farm windfarm, built on the site of an old WWII airfield. Although it was protested against locally, it isn't exactly 'special' land - essentially a brownfield site.

I do ave big issues with turbines in upland areas, where massive haul roads have to be dug into hillsides to create tracks through which the turbines can be got to the top. This, and the necessary network of tracks on the top, can never be made good again.

Yet intuitively it seems right to put them on hills, where it is windy and they have little impact on people living nearby. The turbines that seem imposing and cast an oppressive gloom over the surrounding area are those in flat and settled areas like the Netherlands or the north French coast.

JosiasJessop

IanB2 said:

JosiasJessop said:

First.

Onshore wind leads to obvious arguments about protection of the rural landscape. In some places it is fine - from the hill near my house I can see the Cotton Farm windfarm, built on the site of an old WWII airfield. Although it was protested against locally, it isn't exactly 'special' land - essentially a brownfield site.

I do ave big issues with turbines in upland areas, where massive haul roads have to be dug into hillsides to create tracks through which the turbines can be got to the top. This, and the necessary network of tracks on the top, can never be made good again.

Yet intuitively it seems right to put them on hills, where it is windy and they have little impact on people living nearby. The turbines that seem imposing and cast an oppressive gloom over the surrounding area are those in flat and settled areas like the Netherlands or the north French coast.

If hills are needed, it's odd quite how many there are in the Fens ...

(An acquaintance of mine lives in Soham. When he had his house built, his architect told him that his house was the highest ground in a certain direction from SIberia. The wind certainly felt like it at times.)

To make it clear: I have no problem with the majority of windfarms. I do have problems with some areas having more than others due to NIMBYs, or relatively spoilt upland areas being spoilt for posterity by them as they're easier to build on due to the lack of NIMBYs. For most places in England, the latter clause does not apply.

ydoethur

Surely the question is not whether he's on to a winner electorally but whether his proposals are based on half-decent understanding of the problems involved?

In this case, while an expansion of solar is obviously desirable I can't see that in our circumstances wind power is better than hydro or tide.

JosiasJessop

ydoethur said:

Surely the question is not whether he's on to a winner electorally but whether his proposals are based on half-decent understanding of the problems involved?

In this case, while an expansion of solar is obviously desirable I can't see that in our circumstances wind power is better than hydro or tide.

My usual response to that is that we've about maxed out potential for hydro in the UK< with relatively few sites remaining unexploited, and that tidal has been promised for decades and has not been delivered.

Except recently they may have made progress with tidal:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-45246445

DavidL

Am I not reading this properly? The second category seems to read offshore where most of our new wind turbines are based. Onshore wind is less attractive although still significantly better than nuclear or coal. This morning more than 17% of our energy is coming from wind and another 9.5% from biomass Once the sun gets up renewables will probably be over 35% again even at this time of year.

The point of this is that the Labour party is hardly proposing anything new here. This is the current direction of energy policy and it has been for some years. Not going ahead with the Cardiff lagoon does seem an unpopular decision but I am not seeing an obvious vulnerability here. Personally I would be looking to reduce our reliance on the interconnectors, particularly with France. Encouraging economically viable clean energy production inside the UK seems to me a very simple way of reducing the trade deficit.

Jonathan

We’ve seen this before.

Vote Blue go Green. It’s now Vote Red go Green.

Corbyn soon be bothering huskies

SquareRoot

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-45648081/labour-mp-laura-smith-calls-for-general-strike

Just read the third paragraph of this report, Do the BBC REALLY think that people are that THICK ?

Morris_Dancer

Good morning, everyone.

Energy policy has been horrendous for as long as I can remember. I'm unconvinced Corbyn's policy of burning capitalists* will work well.

*I'm joking, of course.

ydoethur

Jonathan said:

We’ve seen this before.

Vote Blue go Green. It’s now Vote Red go Green.

Corbyn soon be bothering huskies

TMI

DavidL

As usual with these kinds of surveys you do wonder about the knowledge level of the participants but I am also surprised that gas is less popular than nuclear. Hinckley Point seems to me to be an expensive, unpopular mistake. Will the government repeat it with the other proposed new nuclear plants? You'd like to hope not.

Foxy

AlastairMeeks said:

Beneath the waves of Brexit and anti-Semitism, Labour are sharpening up their retail offer very effectively. When they turn their minds again to the question of persuading the public rather than the question of party control, they may well get another sugar rush boost of enthusiasm in their support.

Yes, Labour are having a good conference. Jezzas speech should be interesting. He knows how to work a crowd.

Attention then shifts to the Tories. Can May top last years speech from hell!?

Casino_Royale

I’m not sure I see the vulnerability.

The Tories have been going very heavy on a Green Brexit recently, plastic waste etc, and have made good progress with renewables since 2010.

OldKingCole

DavidL said:

As usual with these kinds of surveys you do wonder about the knowledge level of the participants but I am also surprised that gas is less popular than nuclear. Hinckley Point seems to me to be an expensive, unpopular mistake. Will the government repeat it with the other proposed new nuclear plants? You'd like to hope not.

Is gas less popular because of fracking?

Agree about Hinckley Point.

DavidL

Morris_Dancer said:

Good morning, everyone.

Energy policy has been horrendous for as long as I can remember. I'm unconvinced Corbyn's policy of burning capitalists* will work well.

*I'm joking, of course.

That definitely won't work: https://www.quora.com/How-much-energy-is-required-for-a-human-cremation

Fat capitalists are likely to have higher than average negative calorific values. Perhaps the Matrix showed the way to go?

MikeSmithson

DavidL said:

Am I not reading this properly? The second category seems to read offshore where most of our new wind turbines are based. Onshore wind is less attractive although still significantly better than nuclear or coal. This morning more than 17% of our energy is coming from wind and another 9.5% from biomass Once the sun gets up renewables will probably be over 35% again even at this time of year.

The point of this is that the Labour party is hardly proposing anything new here. This is the current direction of energy policy and it has been for some years. Not going ahead with the Cardiff lagoon does seem an unpopular decision but I am not seeing an obvious vulnerability here. Personally I would be looking to reduce our reliance on the interconnectors, particularly with France. Encouraging economically viable clean energy production inside the UK seems to me a very simple way of reducing the trade deficit.

The main vulnerability comes from the Osborne's ludicrous Hinksey Point deal which could cost us for generations.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. L, unlikely. A world that isn't real would appeal more to socialists.

DavidL

OldKingCole said:

DavidL said:

As usual with these kinds of surveys you do wonder about the knowledge level of the participants but I am also surprised that gas is less popular than nuclear. Hinckley Point seems to me to be an expensive, unpopular mistake. Will the government repeat it with the other proposed new nuclear plants? You'd like to hope not.

Is gas less popular because of fracking?

Agree about Hinckley Point.

Possibly. I fear that our politicians will not be brave enough to push through fracking here which is a great pity. A more enlightened, science based view of fracking based on over 100 years of experience of it in the US and elsewhere could solve our energy dependency for a long time to come.

DavidL

Foxy said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Beneath the waves of Brexit and anti-Semitism, Labour are sharpening up their retail offer very effectively. When they turn their minds again to the question of persuading the public rather than the question of party control, they may well get another sugar rush boost of enthusiasm in their support.

Yes, Labour are having a good conference. Jezzas speech should be interesting. He knows how to work a crowd.

Attention then shifts to the Tories. Can May top last years speech from hell!?

You'd like to think any messages behind her are nailed on for a start.

Dura_Ace

Jonathan said:

Vote Blue go Green. It’s now Vote Red go Green.

Vote Orange go mental.

Casino_Royale

JosiasJessop said:

ydoethur said:

Surely the question is not whether he's on to a winner electorally but whether his proposals are based on half-decent understanding of the problems involved?

In this case, while an expansion of solar is obviously desirable I can't see that in our circumstances wind power is better than hydro or tide.

My usual response to that is that we've about maxed out potential for hydro in the UK< with relatively few sites remaining unexploited, and that tidal has been promised for decades and has not been delivered.

Except recently they may have made progress with tidal:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-45246445

I think tidal is approximately where wind and solar were about 15 years ago.

ydoethur

Dura_Ace said:

Jonathan said:

Vote Blue go Green. It’s now Vote Red go Green.

Vote Orange go mental.

That's a bit harsh on the Liberal Democrats...

ydoethur

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Beneath the waves of Brexit and anti-Semitism, Labour are sharpening up their retail offer very effectively. When they turn their minds again to the question of persuading the public rather than the question of party control, they may well get another sugar rush boost of enthusiasm in their support.

Yes, Labour are having a good conference. Jezzas speech should be interesting. He knows how to work a crowd.

Attention then shifts to the Tories. Can May top last years speech from hell!?

You'd like to think any messages behind her are nailed on for a start.

So was a Tory majority last year!

DavidL

MikeSmithson said:

DavidL said:

Am I not reading this properly? The second category seems to read offshore where most of our new wind turbines are based. Onshore wind is less attractive although still significantly better than nuclear or coal. This morning more than 17% of our energy is coming from wind and another 9.5% from biomass Once the sun gets up renewables will probably be over 35% again even at this time of year.

The point of this is that the Labour party is hardly proposing anything new here. This is the current direction of energy policy and it has been for some years. Not going ahead with the Cardiff lagoon does seem an unpopular decision but I am not seeing an obvious vulnerability here. Personally I would be looking to reduce our reliance on the interconnectors, particularly with France. Encouraging economically viable clean energy production inside the UK seems to me a very simple way of reducing the trade deficit.

The main vulnerability comes from the Osborne's ludicrous Hinksey Point deal which could cost us for generations.

Was it not May who signed up for it as part of her "the UK is open for business" line? I agree it looks ludicrously expensive and a huge mistake. Despite all the time and effort put into it the government should have recognised that the falling costs of solar and wind made it completely unviable and abandoned it. We can only hope they don't repeat the error.

SquareRoot

MikeSmithson said:

DavidL said:

Am I not reading this properly? The second category seems to read offshore where most of our new wind turbines are based. Onshore wind is less attractive although still significantly better than nuclear or coal. This morning more than 17% of our energy is coming from wind and another 9.5% from biomass Once the sun gets up renewables will probably be over 35% again even at this time of year.

The point of this is that the Labour party is hardly proposing anything new here. This is the current direction of energy policy and it has been for some years. Not going ahead with the Cardiff lagoon does seem an unpopular decision but I am not seeing an obvious vulnerability here. Personally I would be looking to reduce our reliance on the interconnectors, particularly with France. Encouraging economically viable clean energy production inside the UK seems to me a very simple way of reducing the trade deficit.

The main vulnerability comes from the Osborne's ludicrous Hinksey Point deal which could cost us for generations.

Never heard of Hinksey point.. Is it a new power station>?

IanB2

Foxy said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Beneath the waves of Brexit and anti-Semitism, Labour are sharpening up their retail offer very effectively. When they turn their minds again to the question of persuading the public rather than the question of party control, they may well get another sugar rush boost of enthusiasm in their support.

Yes, Labour are having a good conference. Jezzas speech should be interesting. He knows how to work a crowd.

Attention then shifts to the Tories. Can May top last years speech from hell!?

They've placed a big superglue order for the backdrop.

And after Bodyguard they aren't going to allow some random guy to wander on stage to hand her a note..

ydoethur

Incidentally I'm not sure I agree about hydropower. Sure, we've probably got all the big sites we're going to have. But micro power where possible still seems an untapped reserve. It's about the same cost as solar power and because it works constantly it's far more efficient.

The big snag of course is that comparatively few properties are suitable for it, whereas any house with a south facing roof can take solar.

(And since most churches have such roofs, it's really dumb that only a tiny minority can put them on.)

DavidL

Casino_Royale said:

JosiasJessop said:

ydoethur said:

Surely the question is not whether he's on to a winner electorally but whether his proposals are based on half-decent understanding of the problems involved?

In this case, while an expansion of solar is obviously desirable I can't see that in our circumstances wind power is better than hydro or tide.

My usual response to that is that we've about maxed out potential for hydro in the UK< with relatively few sites remaining unexploited, and that tidal has been promised for decades and has not been delivered.

Except recently they may have made progress with tidal:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-45246445

I think tidal is approximately where wind and solar were about 15 years ago.

The main problem I see with tidal is that we are once again generating energy a hell of a long way from where it is being used with massive transfer losses as a result. The best sites seem to be on the north west of Scotland which is a very long way from anywhere meaningful.

ydoethur

DavidL said:

Casino_Royale said:

JosiasJessop said:

ydoethur said:

Surely the question is not whether he's on to a winner electorally but whether his proposals are based on half-decent understanding of the problems involved?

In this case, while an expansion of solar is obviously desirable I can't see that in our circumstances wind power is better than hydro or tide.

My usual response to that is that we've about maxed out potential for hydro in the UK< with relatively few sites remaining unexploited, and that tidal has been promised for decades and has not been delivered.

Except recently they may have made progress with tidal:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-45246445

I think tidal is approximately where wind and solar were about 15 years ago.

The main problem I see with tidal is that we are once again generating energy a hell of a long way from where it is being used with massive transfer losses as a result. The best sites seem to be on the north west of Scotland which is a very long way from anywhere meaningful.

I would have thought the tidal races in the Severn estuary are quite a bit stronger than those in Scotland, although I don't know for sure.

DavidL

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Beneath the waves of Brexit and anti-Semitism, Labour are sharpening up their retail offer very effectively. When they turn their minds again to the question of persuading the public rather than the question of party control, they may well get another sugar rush boost of enthusiasm in their support.

Yes, Labour are having a good conference. Jezzas speech should be interesting. He knows how to work a crowd.

Attention then shifts to the Tories. Can May top last years speech from hell!?

You'd like to think any messages behind her are nailed on for a start.

So was a Tory majority last year!

Oh cruel. I don't really agree that Labour have been having a good conference. They have ended up talking quite a lot about Brexit on which they are as divided as the rest of us. Of course the Tories are very likely to do the same.

MattW

Good vid, but a dodgy survey - not "Yougov" but "Yougov funded by Client Earth, published without full data tables on the Client Earth website with a press Release".

eg This:

"Polling from YouGov only last month suggested that the public is supportive. It found that 62% said they would like to fit solar panels and 60% would install an energy storage device. An even greater number – 71% – said that they would be interested in joining a community energy scheme if government support was there."

The actual question was not published afaics, but the conclusion is:

"A majority of consumers would like to install both solar panels and a home energy storage
device for their homes, if greater assistance was available"

ie Yes, I would like to have the benefit if somebody else pays. Not very convincing, especially as solar is now so cheap and subsidies should be used where they have a maximum impact.

https://www.documents.clientearth.org/wp-content/uploads/library/2018-08-20-clientearths-climate-snapshot-coll-en.pdf

Charles

I heard on the radio this morning that they plan to get private investors to fund the expansion of onshore wind power.

So: asking people to put money in infrastructure and the same time they are nationalising utilities without compensation.

Hmmh

Scrapheap_as_was

FPT

Scrapheap_as_was said:

NickPalmer said:

rottenborough said:

John McD will be furious with Laura Smith MP. He has spent the last few days trying to appear like a reasonable bank manager, and then one of his MPs goes off and says lets have a General Strike and bring down a democratically elected government.

Pretty silly, but from the picture was one of the hundreds of fringe meetings. Doubt if it will resonate far.

It's right up there on the Radio 2 news along with a clip of her saying it ... the only sound clip from the Lab conference and just after their lead story on what JC will say today in his speech....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-45648081/labour-mp-laura-smith-calls-for-general-strike

DavidL

At the risk of going all @SeanT there seems to have been a major incident at a Sheffield school yesterday involving a race riot between Pakistani and Roma communities. Compare and contrast the coverage:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-45641574

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/sheffield-school-fight_uk_5baa6e9ce4b0f143d10dfe10

Have we really learned nothing?

SquareRoot

Scrapheap_as_was said:

FPT

Scrapheap_as_was said:

NickPalmer said:

rottenborough said:

John McD will be furious with Laura Smith MP. He has spent the last few days trying to appear like a reasonable bank manager, and then one of his MPs goes off and says lets have a General Strike and bring down a democratically elected government.

Pretty silly, but from the picture was one of the hundreds of fringe meetings. Doubt if it will resonate far.

It's right up there on the Radio 2 news along with a clip of her saying it ... the only sound clip from the Lab conference and just after their lead story on what JC will say today in his speech....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-45648081/labour-mp-laura-smith-calls-for-general-strike

Its no different to McDonnell outburst where he said democracy doesn't work for him and calls for insurrection.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sw687TVnO3g

Jonathan

Foxy said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Beneath the waves of Brexit and anti-Semitism, Labour are sharpening up their retail offer very effectively. When they turn their minds again to the question of persuading the public rather than the question of party control, they may well get another sugar rush boost of enthusiasm in their support.

Yes, Labour are having a good conference. Jezzas speech should be interesting. He knows how to work a crowd.

Attention then shifts to the Tories. Can May top last years speech from hell!?

The writing is on the wall for Theresa, which is a significant improvement over last year.

ydoethur

DavidL said:

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Beneath the waves of Brexit and anti-Semitism, Labour are sharpening up their retail offer very effectively. When they turn their minds again to the question of persuading the public rather than the question of party control, they may well get another sugar rush boost of enthusiasm in their support.

Yes, Labour are having a good conference. Jezzas speech should be interesting. He knows how to work a crowd.

Attention then shifts to the Tories. Can May top last years speech from hell!?

You'd like to think any messages behind her are nailed on for a start.

So was a Tory majority last year!

Oh cruel. I don't really agree that Labour have been having a good conference. They have ended up talking quite a lot about Brexit on which they are as divided as the rest of us. Of course the Tories are very likely to do the same.

And of course, Jews and violence.

I think Labour have really shown themselves in an unflattering light. However, by promising the planet for nothing, a la Trump, there is a danger they will fool enough people to take power and cause massive disruption.

ydoethur

Jonathan said:

Foxy said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Beneath the waves of Brexit and anti-Semitism, Labour are sharpening up their retail offer very effectively. When they turn their minds again to the question of persuading the public rather than the question of party control, they may well get another sugar rush boost of enthusiasm in their support.

Yes, Labour are having a good conference. Jezzas speech should be interesting. He knows how to work a crowd.

Attention then shifts to the Tories. Can May top last years speech from hell!?

The writing is on the wall for Theresa, which is a significant improvement over last year.

She has been weighed in the balance and found wanting?

Jonathan

DavidL said:

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Beneath the waves of Brexit and anti-Semitism, Labour are sharpening up their retail offer very effectively. When they turn their minds again to the question of persuading the public rather than the question of party control, they may well get another sugar rush boost of enthusiasm in their support.

Yes, Labour are having a good conference. Jezzas speech should be interesting. He knows how to work a crowd.

Attention then shifts to the Tories. Can May top last years speech from hell!?

You'd like to think any messages behind her are nailed on for a start.

So was a Tory majority last year!

Oh cruel. I don't really agree that Labour have been having a good conference. They have ended up talking quite a lot about Brexit on which they are as divided as the rest of us. Of course the Tories are very likely to do the same.

Labour have done well on Brexit, cementing a position ever so slightly less Brexity thN the government, which is enough to hoover up a lot of votes.

ydoethur

Jonathan said:

DavidL said:

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Beneath the waves of Brexit and anti-Semitism, Labour are sharpening up their retail offer very effectively. When they turn their minds again to the question of persuading the public rather than the question of party control, they may well get another sugar rush boost of enthusiasm in their support.

Yes, Labour are having a good conference. Jezzas speech should be interesting. He knows how to work a crowd.

Attention then shifts to the Tories. Can May top last years speech from hell!?

You'd like to think any messages behind her are nailed on for a start.

So was a Tory majority last year!

Oh cruel. I don't really agree that Labour have been having a good conference. They have ended up talking quite a lot about Brexit on which they are as divided as the rest of us. Of course the Tories are very likely to do the same.

Labour have done well on Brexit, cementing a position ever so slightly less Brexity thN the government, which is enough to hoover up a lot of votes.

Is that Starmer, Abbott, Thornberry or Corbyn's position?

Because they seem to have firmed up all four...

MattW

On LabCon, I am interested in the unforeseen consequences of Chairman MaoDonnell's various grabs.

eg Pension funds own something like 3-5% of the UK stockmarket, worth £50-£150 bn. The loss of 10% of that stake whether by dilution or simple confiscation would be 5-15bn, I think. Which sounds very Brown-ish. Up to date seen hard to come by, but it is not really my area.

Jonathan

ydoethur said:

Jonathan said:

DavidL said:

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Beneath the waves of Brexit and anti-Semitism, Labour are sharpening up their retail offer very effectively. When they turn their minds again to the question of persuading the public rather than the question of party control, they may well get another sugar rush boost of enthusiasm in their support.

Yes, Labour are having a good conference. Jezzas speech should be interesting. He knows how to work a crowd.

Attention then shifts to the Tories. Can May top last years speech from hell!?

You'd like to think any messages behind her are nailed on for a start.

So was a Tory majority last year!

Oh cruel. I don't really agree that Labour have been having a good conference. They have ended up talking quite a lot about Brexit on which they are as divided as the rest of us. Of course the Tories are very likely to do the same.

Labour have done well on Brexit, cementing a position ever so slightly less Brexity thN the government, which is enough to hoover up a lot of votes.

Is that Starmer, Abbott, Thornberry or Corbyn's position?

Because they seem to have firmed up all four...

It doesn’t matter. All they have to do is keep giving a little glimmer of hope to the non hard Brexit crowd. The average is ever so slightly less Brexity.

Dura_Ace

MattW said:

On LabCon, I am interested in the unforeseen consequences of Chairman MaoDonnell's various grabs.

eg Pension funds own something like 3-5% of the UK stockmarket, worth £50-£150 bn. The loss of 10% of that stake whether by dilution or simple confiscation would be 5-15bn, I think. Which sounds very Brown-ish. Up to date seen hard to come by, but it is not really my area.

We're in the age of post-reality politics now. Only Briefcase Wankers care about things adding up or being affordable. See also Brexit and Trump.

bigjohnowls

ydoethur said:

Jonathan said:

DavidL said:

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Beneath the waves of Brexit and anti-Semitism, Labour are sharpening up their retail offer very effectively. When they turn their minds again to the question of persuading the public rather than the question of party control, they may well get another sugar rush boost of enthusiasm in their support.

Yes, Labour are having a good conference. Jezzas speech should be interesting. He knows how to work a crowd.

Attention then shifts to the Tories. Can May top last years speech from hell!?

You'd like to think any messages behind her are nailed on for a start.

So was a Tory majority last year!

Oh cruel. I don't really agree that Labour have been having a good conference. They have ended up talking quite a lot about Brexit on which they are as divided as the rest of us. Of course the Tories are very likely to do the same.

Labour have done well on Brexit, cementing a position ever so slightly less Brexity thN the government, which is enough to hoover up a lot of votes.

Is that Starmer, Abbott, Thornberry or Corbyn's position?

Because they seem to have firmed up all four...

All things to all voters is the way to go.

It's Mays fooked up BREXIT then.

DavidL

By the way where does Corbyn think we are going to find 400k people to work in the renewable energy field? Does he really think we have got a lot of unemployed engineers or construction workers hanging about waiting for his largess?

SouthamObserver

Dura_Ace said:

MattW said:

On LabCon, I am interested in the unforeseen consequences of Chairman MaoDonnell's various grabs.

eg Pension funds own something like 3-5% of the UK stockmarket, worth £50-£150 bn. The loss of 10% of that stake whether by dilution or simple confiscation would be 5-15bn, I think. Which sounds very Brown-ish. Up to date seen hard to come by, but it is not really my area.

We're in the age of post-reality politics now. Only Briefcase Wankers care about things adding up or being affordable. See also Brexit and Trump.

Yep - the Brexit vote showed you can promise Unicorns and win. The far left has learned that lesson well. But Labour has at least realised that the current system is now failing to deliver to millions of people. The Tories are not even at that point yet. May promising further tax cuts for business and less regulation is not going to inspire many working people struggling to make ends meet.

SouthamObserver

Jonathan said:

ydoethur said:

Jonathan said:

DavidL said:

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Beneath the waves of Brexit and anti-Semitism, Labour are sharpening up their retail offer very effectively. When they turn their minds again to the question of persuading the public rather than the question of party control, they may well get another sugar rush boost of enthusiasm in their support.

Yes, Labour are having a good conference. Jezzas speech should be interesting. He knows how to work a crowd.

Attention then shifts to the Tories. Can May top last years speech from hell!?

You'd like to think any messages behind her are nailed on for a start.

So was a Tory majority last year!

Oh cruel. I don't really agree that Labour have been having a good conference. They have ended up talking quite a lot about Brexit on which they are as divided as the rest of us. Of course the Tories are very likely to do the same.

Labour have done well on Brexit, cementing a position ever so slightly less Brexity thN the government, which is enough to hoover up a lot of votes.

Is that Starmer, Abbott, Thornberry or Corbyn's position?

Because they seem to have firmed up all four...

It doesn’t matter. All they have to do is keep giving a little glimmer of hope to the non hard Brexit crowd. The average is ever so slightly less Brexity.

As long as the Tories own Brexit, that is all that Labour cares about.

matt

ydoethur said:

Incidentally I'm not sure I agree about hydropower. Sure, we've probably got all the big sites we're going to have. But micro power where possible still seems an untapped reserve. It's about the same cost as solar power and because it works constantly it's far more efficient.

The big snag of course is that comparatively few properties are suitable for it, whereas any house with a south facing roof can take solar.

(And since most churches have such roofs, it's really dumb that only a tiny minority can put them on.)

On the last point, any listed property will struggle to get approval. Conservation areas have the same issue. I assume yet another planning change is coming.

Foxy

DavidL said:

At the risk of going all @SeanT there seems to have been a major incident at a Sheffield school yesterday involving a race riot between Pakistani and Roma communities. Compare and contrast the coverage:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-45641574

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/sheffield-school-fight_uk_5baa6e9ce4b0f143d10dfe10

Have we really learned nothing?

2 hurt in canteen scrap? and school ends early for the day.

Not exactly the Toxteth riots is it.

SouthamObserver

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Beneath the waves of Brexit and anti-Semitism, Labour are sharpening up their retail offer very effectively. When they turn their minds again to the question of persuading the public rather than the question of party control, they may well get another sugar rush boost of enthusiasm in their support.

Yes, Labour are having a good conference. Jezzas speech should be interesting. He knows how to work a crowd.

Attention then shifts to the Tories. Can May top last years speech from hell!?

You'd like to think any messages behind her are nailed on for a start.

So was a Tory majority last year!

Oh cruel. I don't really agree that Labour have been having a good conference. They have ended up talking quite a lot about Brexit on which they are as divided as the rest of us. Of course the Tories are very likely to do the same.

And of course, Jews and violence.

I think Labour have really shown themselves in an unflattering light. However, by promising the planet for nothing, a la Trump, there is a danger they will fool enough people to take power and cause massive disruption.

They have learned well from the Tory Brexiteers: promise the world, talk confidently and dismiss any negative reaction as an establishment-driven Project Fear project designed to entrench the elite.

Charles

ydoethur said:

Jonathan said:

Foxy said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Beneath the waves of Brexit and anti-Semitism, Labour are sharpening up their retail offer very effectively. When they turn their minds again to the question of persuading the public rather than the question of party control, they may well get another sugar rush boost of enthusiasm in their support.

Yes, Labour are having a good conference. Jezzas speech should be interesting. He knows how to work a crowd.

Attention then shifts to the Tories. Can May top last years speech from hell!?

The writing is on the wall for Theresa, which is a significant improvement over last year.

She has been weighed in the balance and found wanting?

To be fair she’s kept the balance pretty well

Although stasis in a time of change may not be what we need

Charles

ydoethur said:

Jonathan said:

Foxy said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Beneath the waves of Brexit and anti-Semitism, Labour are sharpening up their retail offer very effectively. When they turn their minds again to the question of persuading the public rather than the question of party control, they may well get another sugar rush boost of enthusiasm in their support.

Yes, Labour are having a good conference. Jezzas speech should be interesting. He knows how to work a crowd.

Attention then shifts to the Tories. Can May top last years speech from hell!?

The writing is on the wall for Theresa, which is a significant improvement over last year.

She has been weighed in the balance and found wanting?

To be fair she’s kept the balance pretty well

Although stasis in a time of change may not be what we need

CD13

Mr W,

I had solar panels installed in 2011, and I've done very well out of them. It was a no-brainer. It completely defrays the cost of the green tax imposed by Ed at al to pay for his generous give-away.

Of course, people would want the chance to benefit. In my case, the finance came from my retirement lump sum, but if I hadn't had any finance, I'd have been spitting mad about it.

Charles

ydoethur said:

Jonathan said:

DavidL said:

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Beneath the waves of Brexit and anti-Semitism, Labour are sharpening up their retail offer very effectively. When they turn their minds again to the question of persuading the public rather than the question of party control, they may well get another sugar rush boost of enthusiasm in their support.

Yes, Labour are having a good conference. Jezzas speech should be interesting. He knows how to work a crowd.

Attention then shifts to the Tories. Can May top last years speech from hell!?

You'd like to think any messages behind her are nailed on for a start.

So was a Tory majority last year!

Oh cruel. I don't really agree that Labour have been having a good conference. They have ended up talking quite a lot about Brexit on which they are as divided as the rest of us. Of course the Tories are very likely to do the same.

Labour have done well on Brexit, cementing a position ever so slightly less Brexity thN the government, which is enough to hoover up a lot of votes.

Is that Starmer, Abbott, Thornberry or Corbyn's position?

Because they seem to have firmed up all four...

But Abbott insisted they all agreed with each other

Dura_Ace

DavidL said:

By the way where does Corbyn think we are going to find 400k people to work in the renewable energy field? Does he really think we have got a lot of unemployed engineers or construction workers hanging about waiting for his largess?

Immigration. Lots of it to punish tory voters.

Roger

Seems like Nike's gamble paid off.


Not a sentiment everyone would agree with but very professionally done


"Don't ask if your dreams are crazy. Ask if they're crazy enough."


https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?fr=yhs-domaindev-st_emea&hsimp=yhs-st_emea&hspart=domaindev&p=new+nike+commercial#id=3&vid=f4685ae14fa0edcfb62c1a10f8ca54ce&action=click

bigjohnowls

Jonathan said:

Foxy said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Beneath the waves of Brexit and anti-Semitism, Labour are sharpening up their retail offer very effectively. When they turn their minds again to the question of persuading the public rather than the question of party control, they may well get another sugar rush boost of enthusiasm in their support.

Yes, Labour are having a good conference. Jezzas speech should be interesting. He knows how to work a crowd.

Attention then shifts to the Tories. Can May top last years speech from hell!?

The writing is on the wall for Theresa, which is a significant improvement over last year.

All in all its just another stick on the wall

Tory policy announcement alert

We don't need no edukayshun (for the irks)

kle4

Jonathan said:

DavidL said:

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Beneath the waves of Brexit and anti-Semitism, Labour are sharpening up their retail offer very effectively. When they turn their minds again to the question of persuading the public rather than the question of party control, they may well get another sugar rush boost of enthusiasm in their support.

Yes, Labour are having a good conference. Jezzas speech should be interesting. He knows how to work a crowd.

Attention then shifts to the Tories. Can May top last years speech from hell!?

You'd like to think any messages behind her are nailed on for a start.

So was a Tory majority last year!

Oh cruel. I don't really agree that Labour have been having a good conference. They have ended up talking quite a lot about Brexit on which they are as divided as the rest of us. Of course the Tories are very likely to do the same.

Labour have done well on Brexit, cementing a position ever so slightly less Brexity thN the government, which is enough to hoover up a lot of votes.

Agreed. Their positioning has been deeply cynical and, well, political, but Corbyn now has great wiggle room on the issue which is what the party needs.

Jonathan

SouthamObserver said:

Jonathan said:

ydoethur said:

Jonathan said:

DavidL said:

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Beneath the waves of Brexit and anti-Semitism, Labour are sharpening up their retail offer very effectively. When they turn their minds again to the question of persuading the public rather than the question of party control, they may well get another sugar rush boost of enthusiasm in their support.

Yes, Labour are having a good conference. Jezzas speech should be interesting. He knows how to work a crowd.

Attention then shifts to the Tories. Can May top last years speech from hell!?

You'd like to think any messages behind her are nailed on for a start.

So was a Tory majority last year!

Oh cruel. I don't really agree that Labour have been having a good conference. They have ended up talking quite a lot about Brexit on which they are as divided as the rest of us. Of course the Tories are very likely to do the same.

Labour have done well on Brexit, cementing a position ever so slightly less Brexity thN the government, which is enough to hoover up a lot of votes.

Is that Starmer, Abbott, Thornberry or Corbyn's position?

Because they seem to have firmed up all four...

It doesn’t matter. All they have to do is keep giving a little glimmer of hope to the non hard Brexit crowd. The average is ever so slightly less Brexity.

As long as the Tories own Brexit, that is all that Labour cares about.

Almost. They need to keep that 40% + of the vote they won in 2017.

If some of the glamour and pizzazz rubs off the Tories through the attrition of govt. That 40% will see them into number ten.

Anazina

Watched the video from Smithson Jr last month.

Those that haven’t watched it, should.

It is excellent.

notme

SouthamObserver said:

Dura_Ace said:

MattW said:

On LabCon, I am interested in the unforeseen consequences of Chairman MaoDonnell's various grabs.

eg Pension funds own something like 3-5% of the UK stockmarket, worth £50-£150 bn. The loss of 10% of that stake whether by dilution or simple confiscation would be 5-15bn, I think. Which sounds very Brown-ish. Up to date seen hard to come by, but it is not really my area.

We're in the age of post-reality politics now. Only Briefcase Wankers care about things adding up or being affordable. See also Brexit and Trump.

Yep - the Brexit vote showed you can promise Unicorns and win. The far left has learned that lesson well. But Labour has at least realised that the current system is now failing to deliver to millions of people. The Tories are not even at that point yet. May promising further tax cuts for business and less regulation is not going to inspire many working people struggling to make ends meet.

There’s an over indulgence on the left though to wallow in poverty porn though. It was the mistake labour made under miliband. Actually people’s lives aren’t too bad, mass unemployemnt has disappeared, childhood poverty lowest for a generation, pensioner poverty all but disappeared. The system is working pretty darn well. The weakness for the conservatives surrounds the untrue narrative of schools and hospitals starved of funding and on the verge of collapse.

Younger families have wholesale seemed to stop supporting the conservatives.

They need a platform to attract them. Rent reform, mortgage reform (the stress tests put on mortgage applications means that people not on the ladder are getting refused mortgages or have to find very high deposits, when they are prefectly fine paying much higher rents.

RoyalBlue

Foxy said:

DavidL said:

At the risk of going all @SeanT there seems to have been a major incident at a Sheffield school yesterday involving a race riot between Pakistani and Roma communities. Compare and contrast the coverage:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-45641574

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/sheffield-school-fight_uk_5baa6e9ce4b0f143d10dfe10

Have we really learned nothing?

2 hurt in canteen scrap? and school ends early for the day.

Not exactly the Toxteth riots is it.

If you read the Huffpost article, it’s a miracle only 2 people were injured.

I’m sure local people are delighted that all the Roma will be eligible to stay in the U.K. permanently under May’s Brexit plans, deal or no deal.

CD13

At the heart of the Brexit debate, there's a basic question that no one seems interested in.

Free trade is good, tariffs are bad. But why are the four freedoms inextricably linked? A common market can be achieved without committing to a unified state. Why then are we not arguing about the reason for the political add-ons?

PS The answer isn't that we all agreed them in 1957 or whenever.

Foxy

DavidL said:

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Beneath the waves of Brexit and anti-Semitism, Labour are sharpening up their retail offer very effectively. When they turn their minds again to the question of persuading the public rather than the question of party control, they may well get another sugar rush boost of enthusiasm in their support.

Yes, Labour are having a good conference. Jezzas speech should be interesting. He knows how to work a crowd.

Attention then shifts to the Tories. Can May top last years speech from hell!?

You'd like to think any messages behind her are nailed on for a start.

So was a Tory majority last year!

Oh cruel. I don't really agree that Labour have been having a good conference. They have ended up talking quite a lot about Brexit on which they are as divided as the rest of us. Of course the Tories are very likely to do the same.

No they really aren't as divided over Brexit, and while Labour have have kept up the tradition of having a few exciteable hotheads at fringe meetings, generally disagreements have been civil. I am not a fan of MacDonnells vision for industry, but challenging thestatus quo is likely to be popular.

I am tempted to make it over to Brum on Sunday to help welcome the Tory delegates. There were some embryonic plans for a pub meet up, Anything definite?

alex.

notme said:

SouthamObserver said:

Dura_Ace said:

MattW said:

On LabCon, I am interested in the unforeseen consequences of Chairman MaoDonnell's various grabs.

eg Pension funds own something like 3-5% of the UK stockmarket, worth £50-£150 bn. The loss of 10% of that stake whether by dilution or simple confiscation would be 5-15bn, I think. Which sounds very Brown-ish. Up to date seen hard to come by, but it is not really my area.

We're in the age of post-reality politics now. Only Briefcase Wankers care about things adding up or being affordable. See also Brexit and Trump.

Yep - the Brexit vote showed you can promise Unicorns and win. The far left has learned that lesson well. But Labour has at least realised that the current system is now failing to deliver to millions of people. The Tories are not even at that point yet. May promising further tax cuts for business and less regulation is not going to inspire many working people struggling to make ends meet.

There’s an over indulgence on the left though to wallow in poverty porn though. It was the mistake labour made under miliband. Actually people’s lives aren’t too bad, mass unemployemnt has disappeared, childhood poverty lowest for a generation, pensioner poverty all but disappeared. The system is working pretty darn well. The weakness for the conservatives surrounds the untrue narrative of schools and hospitals starved of funding and on the verge of collapse.

Younger families have wholesale seemed to stop supporting the conservatives.

They need a platform to attract them. Rent reform, mortgage reform (the stress tests put on mortgage applications means that people not on the ladder are getting refused mortgages or have to find very high deposits, when they are prefectly fine paying much higher rents.

Unfortunately what the Conservatives need is a Corbyn led Labour government.

kle4

Here's hoping for a barnstorming speech from Corbyn - we know he can give them and it doesn't seem like his internal opponents have caused more than minor irritation this week to distract him, they really are defeated and just stir things up every few months to try to pretend they are resisting him.

Any bets on the speech? How many times will he say the word Palestine? How much time saying how saintly he is in fighting racism for all these years vs how much of it will be about how evil the Tory government is (I recall the Tory manifesto didn't mention Corbyn by name much if at all so it might be there's a rule you don't mention the alternative group too much in big moments). How many standing ovations will there be?

All in all conference seems to have gone ok for him.

notme

DavidL said:

At the risk of going all @SeanT there seems to have been a major incident at a Sheffield school yesterday involving a race riot between Pakistani and Roma communities. Compare and contrast the coverage:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-45641574

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/sheffield-school-fight_uk_5baa6e9ce4b0f143d10dfe10

Have we really learned nothing?

A friend who used to teach in Sheffield said the school is predominantly Roma, and unusual with that. There are certain communities you can take the piss out of and they don’t fight back. Rape 1,500 white girls and the police and social services will awkwardly look around and pretend it hasn’t happened. But try taking on a community that’s used to fighting its own battles....

On the flip to that it was the same in NI when they started getting pick pocket Romas coming en masse. They don’t stand for that kind of thing there, both the Protestants and catholic communities will not accept criminality from outside their own group. Retribution was quick.

Anazina

Scotland has been quietly getting on with becoming a world leader in renewables. It gets more than 60% of its power from renewable sources now - which is among the highest of any country in the world. Quite remarkable progress.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_Scotland

alex.

Foxy said:

DavidL said:

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Beneath the waves of Brexit and anti-Semitism, Labour are sharpening up their retail offer very effectively. When they turn their minds again to the question of persuading the public rather than the question of party control, they may well get another sugar rush boost of enthusiasm in their support.

Yes, Labour are having a good conference. Jezzas speech should be interesting. He knows how to work a crowd.

Attention then shifts to the Tories. Can May top last years speech from hell!?

You'd like to think any messages behind her are nailed on for a start.

So was a Tory majority last year!

Oh cruel. I don't really agree that Labour have been having a good conference. They have ended up talking quite a lot about Brexit on which they are as divided as the rest of us. Of course the Tories are very likely to do the same.

No they really aren't as divided over Brexit, and while Labour have have kept up the tradition of having a few exciteable hotheads at fringe meetings, generally disagreements have been civil. I am not a fan of MacDonnells vision for industry, but challenging thestatus quo is likely to be popular.

I am tempted to make it over to Brum on Sunday to help welcome the Tory delegates. There were some embryonic plans for a pub meet up, Anything definite?

They're not "divided" because their official position is "Brexit with the exact same benefits as being in the EU". With a stock response, when challenged as to the fact that this is an unachievable aim on the basis of everything that has transpired so far being that "this is a reasonable position because the Conservatives said that that is what they were pursuing a year ago". It obviously wouldn't last 10 minutes if they were actually in Government.

kle4

Jonathan said:

SouthamObserver said:

Jonathan said:

ydoethur said:

Jonathan said:

DavidL said:

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Beneath the waves of Brexit and anti-Semitism, Labour are sharpening up their retail offer very effectively. When they turn their minds again to the question of persuading the public rather than the question of party control, they may well get another sugar rush boost of enthusiasm in their support.

Yes, Labour are having a good conference. Jezzas speech should be interesting. He knows how to work a crowd.

Attention then shifts to the Tories. Can May top last years speech from hell!?

You'd like to think any messages behind her are nailed on for a start.

So was a Tory majority last year!

Oh cruel. I don't really agree that Labour have been having a good conference. They have ended up talking quite a lot about Brexit on which they are as divided as the rest of us. Of course the Tories are very likely to do the same.

Labour have done well on Brexit, cementing a position ever so slightly less Brexity thN the government, which is enough to hoover up a lot of votes.

Is that Starmer, Abbott, Thornberry or Corbyn's position?

Because they seem to have firmed up all four...

It doesn’t matter. All they have to do is keep giving a little glimmer of hope to the non hard Brexit crowd. The average is ever so slightly less Brexity.

As long as the Tories own Brexit, that is all that Labour cares about.

Almost. They need to keep that 40% + of the vote they won in 2017.

If some of the glamour and pizzazz rubs off the Tories through the attrition of govt. That 40% will see them into number ten.

That's my theory, as I think they've hit their ceiling, bar a few %. An actual split even if small wrecks their chances which made by it won't happen, but other than that it's a case of keeping it all together and letting the pressure of brexit and time in office see the Tories dip a few %. It'll work eventually, everyone loses in the end, just a question of if the Tories collapse earlier than 2022 to give labour an early opportunity.

HYUFD

Interesting on the above figures that although renewables are most favoured, nuclear energy is now more favoured than gas and coal

notme

alex. said:

notme said:

SouthamObserver said:

Dura_Ace said:

MattW said:

On LabCon, I am interested in the unforeseen consequences of Chairman MaoDonnell's various grabs.

eg Pension funds own something like 3-5% of the UK stockmarket, worth £50-£150 bn. The loss of 10% of that stake whether by dilution or simple confiscation would be 5-15bn, I think. Which sounds very Brown-ish. Up to date seen hard to come by, but it is not really my area.

We're in the age of post-reality politics now. Only Briefcase Wankers care about things adding up or being affordable. See also Brexit and Trump.

Yep - the Brexit vote showed you can promise Unicorns and win. The far left has learned that lesson well. But Labour has at least realised that the current system is now failing to deliver to millions of people. The Tories are not even at that point yet. May promising further tax cuts for business and less regulation is not going to inspire many working people struggling to make ends meet.

There’s an over indulgence on the left though to wallow in poverty porn though. It was the mistake labour made under miliband. Actually people’s lives aren’t too bad, mass unemployemnt has disappeared, childhood poverty lowest for a generation, pensioner poverty all but disappeared. The system is working pretty darn well. The weakness for the conservatives surrounds the untrue narrative of schools and hospitals starved of funding and on the verge of collapse.

Younger families have wholesale seemed to stop supporting the conservatives.

They need a platform to attract them. Rent reform, mortgage reform (the stress tests put on mortgage applications means that people not on the ladder are getting refused mortgages or have to find very high deposits, when they are prefectly fine paying much higher rents.

Unfortunately what the Conservatives need is a Corbyn led Labour government.

But the economic decline you get from government central planned economic development can take decades to filter through. Stagnation doesn’t a;pear for some time. They’ll bugger up the finances, they always do.

kle4

bigjohnowls said:

ydoethur said:

Jonathan said:

DavidL said:

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Beneath the waves of Brexit and anti-Semitism, Labour are sharpening up their retail offer very effectively. When they turn their minds again to the question of persuading the public rather than the question of party control, they may well get another sugar rush boost of enthusiasm in their support.

Yes, Labour are having a good conference. Jezzas speech should be interesting. He knows how to work a crowd.

Attention then shifts to the Tories. Can May top last years speech from hell!?

You'd like to think any messages behind her are nailed on for a start.

So was a Tory majority last year!

Oh cruel. I don't really agree that Labour have been having a good conference. They have ended up talking quite a lot about Brexit on which they are as divided as the rest of us. Of course the Tories are very likely to do the same.

Labour have done well on Brexit, cementing a position ever so slightly less Brexity thN the government, which is enough to hoover up a lot of votes.

Is that Starmer, Abbott, Thornberry or Corbyn's position?

Because they seem to have firmed up all four...

All things to all voters is the way to go.

It's Mays fooked up BREXIT then.

Glad to see you and Jeremy believe in firm political principles.

alex.

HYUFD said:

Interesting on the above figures that although renewables are most favoured, nuclear energy is now more favoured than gas and coal

It's virtue signalling. The poll lists the General Public views on which are the "greenest" forms of energy. Nuclear beats gas and coal because it is believed to be greener. Put it another way, include a few buzzwords like "clean coal" and you could see that option zooming up the list.

The poll is arguably meaningless (like many polls of course) if people aren't given some idea of the relative costs, risks etc in advance.

MarqueeMark

alex. said:

notme said:

SouthamObserver said:

Dura_Ace said:

MattW said:

On LabCon, I am interested in the unforeseen consequences of Chairman MaoDonnell's various grabs.

eg Pension funds own something like 3-5% of the UK stockmarket, worth £50-£150 bn. The loss of 10% of that stake whether by dilution or simple confiscation would be 5-15bn, I think. Which sounds very Brown-ish. Up to date seen hard to come by, but it is not really my area.

We're in the age of post-reality politics now. Only Briefcase Wankers care about things adding up or being affordable. See also Brexit and Trump.

Yep - the Brexit vote showed you can promise Unicorns and win. The far left has learned that lesson well. But Labour has at least realised that the current system is now failing to deliver to millions of people. The Tories are not even at that point yet. May promising further tax cuts for business and less regulation is not going to inspire many working people struggling to make ends meet.

There’s an over indulgence on the left though to wallow in poverty porn though. It was the mistake labour made under miliband. Actually people’s lives aren’t too bad, mass unemployemnt has disappeared, childhood poverty lowest for a generation, pensioner poverty all but disappeared. The system is working pretty darn well. The weakness for the conservatives surrounds the untrue narrative of schools and hospitals starved of funding and on the verge of collapse.

Younger families have wholesale seemed to stop supporting the conservatives.

They need a platform to attract them. Rent reform, mortgage reform (the stress tests put on mortgage applications means that people not on the ladder are getting refused mortgages or have to find very high deposits, when they are prefectly fine paying much higher rents.

Unfortunately what the Conservatives need is a Corbyn led Labour government.

Nobody needs a Corbyn government. Least of all the Tories, who will get put back in with the most horrendous economic mess to sort out, for which they will get massive grief when they have to take decisions where they will get no credit. Again.

RoyalBlue

Dura_Ace said:

DavidL said:

By the way where does Corbyn think we are going to find 400k people to work in the renewable energy field? Does he really think we have got a lot of unemployed engineers or construction workers hanging about waiting for his largess?

Immigration. Lots of it to punish tory voters.

How much immigration does Venezuela have?

SouthamObserver

notme said:

SouthamObserver said:

Dura_Ace said:

MattW said:

On LabCon, I am interested in the unforeseen consequences of Chairman MaoDonnell's various grabs.

eg Pension funds own something like 3-5% of the UK stockmarket, worth £50-£150 bn. The loss of 10% of that stake whether by dilution or simple confiscation would be 5-15bn, I think. Which sounds very Brown-ish. Up to date seen hard to come by, but it is not really my area.

We're in the age of post-reality politics now. Only Briefcase Wankers care about things adding up or being affordable. See also Brexit and Trump.

Yep - the Brexit vote showed you can promise Unicorns and win. The far left has learned that lesson well. But Labour has at least realised that the current system is now failing to deliver to millions of people. The Tories are not even at that point yet. May promising further tax cuts for business and less regulation is not going to inspire many working people struggling to make ends meet.

There’s an over indulgence on the left though to wallow in poverty porn though. It was the mistake labour made under miliband. Actually people’s lives aren’t too bad, mass unemployemnt has disappeared, childhood poverty lowest for a generation, pensioner poverty all but disappeared. The system is working pretty darn well. The weakness for the conservatives surrounds the untrue narrative of schools and hospitals starved of funding and on the verge of collapse.

Younger families have wholesale seemed to stop supporting the conservatives.

They need a platform to attract them. Rent reform, mortgage reform (the stress tests put on mortgage applications means that people not on the ladder are getting refused mortgages or have to find very high deposits, when they are prefectly fine paying much higher rents.

Labour's pitch is a pretty simple one - in one of the richest countries on earth, life should not be the struggle it is for so many and people should have a stake in the wealth that they are helping to create. It may be a load of bowlarks on close examination, but it will chime because many millions of people do feel like life is a struggle. If the Tories want to tell voters that actually things are fine and any problems that do exist can only be solved by allowing businesses to pay even less tax, while giving American corporations much greater access to the UK market, keeping public spending low and reducing regulatory standards, so be it. For me, that looks like a brave strategy. Corbyn will probably see them through next time, but Corbyn will not be there forever. The Tories need to find a new way of looking at the world.

Casino_Royale

Dura_Ace said:

DavidL said:

By the way where does Corbyn think we are going to find 400k people to work in the renewable energy field? Does he really think we have got a lot of unemployed engineers or construction workers hanging about waiting for his largess?

Immigration. Lots of it to punish tory voters.

It’s unlikely that you’re joking either.

Which is a disturbing insight into your mental state, like your rather nasty refusal to attend the funeral of someone on account of them being a Leave voter.

Roger

I'd say the Labour conference has gone better than anyone could have hoped. They've managed to straddle Brexit without bifurcating themselves. They've given serious hope to the Remainers. They've sidelined the old union barons (to an extent) without falling out and they put themselves well and trully centre stage on the most important issue of the day with the media hanging onto their every word.

A great platform for the leaders speech. Who'd have thought....

alex.

MarqueeMark said:

alex. said:

notme said:

SouthamObserver said:

Dura_Ace said:

MattW said:

On LabCon, I am interested in the unforeseen consequences of Chairman MaoDonnell's various grabs.

eg Pension funds own something like 3-5% of the UK stockmarket, worth £50-£150 bn. The loss of 10% of that stake whether by dilution or simple confiscation would be 5-15bn, I think. Which sounds very Brown-ish. Up to date seen hard to come by, but it is not really my area.

We're in the age of post-reality politics now. Only Briefcase Wankers care about things adding up or being affordable. See also Brexit and Trump.

Yep - the Brexit vote showed you can promise Unicorns and win. The far left has learned that lesson well. But Labour has at least realised that the current system is now failing to deliver to millions of people. The Tories are not even at that point yet. May promising further tax cuts for business and less regulation is not going to inspire many working people struggling to make ends meet.

There’s an over indulgence on the left though to wallow in poverty porn though. It was the mistake labour made under miliband. Actually people’s lives aren’t too bad, mass unemployemnt has disappeared, childhood poverty lowest for a generation, pensioner poverty all but disappeared. The system is working pretty darn well. The weakness for the conservatives surrounds the untrue narrative of schools and hospitals starved of funding and on the verge of collapse.

Younger families have wholesale seemed to stop supporting the conservatives.

They need a platform to attract them. Rent reform, mortgage reform (the stress tests put on mortgage applications means that people not on the ladder are getting refused mortgages or have to find very high deposits, when they are prefectly fine paying much higher rents.

Unfortunately what the Conservatives need is a Corbyn led Labour government.

Nobody needs a Corbyn government. Least of all the Tories, who will get put back in with the most horrendous economic mess to sort out, for which they will get massive grief when they have to take decisions where they will get no credit. Again.

What, like 1979 to, when was it, 1997? It wasn't totally serious, but it's the quickest way for them to get a serious hearing, especially from the young.

HYUFD

MarqueeMark said:

alex. said:

notme said:

SouthamObserver said:

Dura_Ace said:

MattW said:

On LabCon, I am interested in the unforeseen consequences of Chairman MaoDonnell's various grabs.

eg Pension funds own something like 3-5% of the UK stockmarket, worth £50-£150 bn. The loss of 10% of that stake whether by dilution or simple confiscation would be 5-15bn, I think. Which sounds very Brown-ish. Up to date seen hard to come by, but it is not really my area.

We're in the age of post-reality politics now. Only Briefcase Wankers care about things adding up or being affordable. See also Brexit and Trump.

Yep - the Brexit vote showed you can promise Unicorns and win. The far left has learned that lesson well. But Labour has at least realised that the current system is now failing to deliver to millions of people. The Tories are not even at that point yet. May promising further tax cuts for business and less regulation is not going to inspire many working people struggling to make ends meet.

There’s an over indulgence on the left though to wallow in poverty porn though. It was the mistake labour made under miliband. Actually people’s lives aren’t too bad, mass unemployemnt has disappeared, childhood poverty lowest for a generation, pensioner poverty all but disappeared. The system is working pretty darn well. The weakness for the conservatives surrounds the untrue narrative of schools and hospitals starved of funding and on the verge of collapse.

Younger families have wholesale seemed to stop supporting the conservatives.

They need a platform to attract them. Rent reform, mortgage reform (the stress tests put on mortgage applications means that people not on the ladder are getting refused mortgages or have to find very high deposits, when they are prefectly fine paying much higher rents.

Unfortunately what the Conservatives need is a Corbyn led Labour government.

Nobody needs a Corbyn government. Least of all the Tories, who will get put back in with the most horrendous economic mess to sort out, for which they will get massive grief when they have to take decisions where they will get no credit. Again.

The Tories were in for 18 years when they won in 1979 to clear up the mess of the 1974 to 1979 Labour government, even if Thatcher had to take unpopular decisions to begin with.

I think a Corbyn government that fudged on Brexit would be better for the Tories longer term than a Tory government that ends up having to deliver a No Deal Brexit

kle4

MarqueeMark said:

alex. said:

notme said:

SouthamObserver said:

Dura_Ace said:

MattW said:

On LabCon, I am interested in the unforeseen consequences of Chairman MaoDonnell's various grabs.

eg Pension funds own something like 3-5% of the UK stockmarket, worth £50-£150 bn. The loss of 10% of that stake whether by dilution or simple confiscation would be 5-15bn, I think. Which sounds very Brown-ish. Up to date seen hard to come by, but it is not really my area.

We're in the age of post-reality politics now. Only Briefcase Wankers care about things adding up or being affordable. See also Brexit and Trump.

Yep - the Brexit vote showed you can promise Unicorns and win. The far left has learned that lesson well. But Labour has at least realised that the current system is now failing to deliver to millions of people. The Tories are not even at that point yet. May promising further tax cuts for business and less regulation is not going to inspire many working people struggling to make ends meet.

There’s an over indulgence on the left though to wallow in poverty porn though. It was the mistake labour made under miliband. Actually people’s lives aren’t too bad, mass unemployemnt has disappeared, childhood poverty lowest for a generation, pensioner poverty all but disappeared. The system is working pretty darn well. The weakness for the conservatives surrounds the untrue narrative of schools and hospitals starved of funding and on the verge of collapse.

Younger families have wholesale seemed to stop supporting the conservatives.

They need a platform to attract them. Rent reform, mortgage reform (the stress tests put on mortgage applications means that people not on the ladder are getting refused mortgages or have to find very high deposits, when they are prefectly fine paying much higher rents.

Unfortunately what the Conservatives need is a Corbyn led Labour government.

Nobody needs a Corbyn government. Least of all the Tories, who will get put back in with the most horrendous economic mess to sort out, for which they will get massive grief when they have to take decisions where they will get no credit. Again.

The Tories are going to lose power at some point (It's not even certain they will make it to 2022 even with the FTPA) and given Labour is now a corbynite party they going to lose power to either Corbyn or an acolyte of Corbyn. So I the Tories had best hope they are at least not landslided next time so it takes a decade and more to recover.

Roger

Roger said:

I'd say the Labour conference has gone better than anyone could have hoped. They've managed to straddle Brexit without bifurcating themselves. They've given serious hope to the Remainers. They've sidelined the old union barons (to an extent) without falling out and they put themselves well and trully centre stage on the most important issue of the day with the media hanging onto their every word.

A great platform for the leaders speech. Who'd have thought....

Edit ....and the Palestinian flags were a very smart idea.

alex.

SouthamObserver said:

notme said:

SouthamObserver said:

Dura_Ace said:

MattW said:

On LabCon, I am interested in the unforeseen consequences of Chairman MaoDonnell's various grabs.

eg Pension funds own something like 3-5% of the UK stockmarket, worth £50-£150 bn. The loss of 10% of that stake whether by dilution or simple confiscation would be 5-15bn, I think. Which sounds very Brown-ish. Up to date seen hard to come by, but it is not really my area.

We're in the age of post-reality politics now. Only Briefcase Wankers care about things adding up or being affordable. See also Brexit and Trump.

Yep - the Brexit vote showed you can promise Unicorns and win. The far left has learned that lesson well. But Labour has at least realised that the current system is now failing to deliver to millions of people. The Tories are not even at that point yet. May promising further tax cuts for business and less regulation is not going to inspire many working people struggling to make ends meet.

There’s an over indulgence on the left though to wallow in poverty porn though. It was the mistake labour made under miliband. Actually people’s lives aren’t too bad, mass unemployemnt has disappeared, childhood poverty lowest for a generation, pensioner poverty all but disappeared. The system is working pretty darn well. The weakness for the conservatives surrounds the untrue narrative of schools and hospitals starved of funding and on the verge of collapse.

Younger families have wholesale seemed to stop supporting the conservatives.

They need a platform to attract them. Rent reform, mortgage reform (the stress tests put on mortgage applications means that people not on the ladder are getting refused mortgages or have to find very high deposits, when they are prefectly fine paying much higher rents.

Labour's pitch is a pretty simple one - in one of the richest countries on earth, life should not be the struggle it is for so many and people should have a stake in the wealth that they are helping to create. It may be a load of bowlarks on close examination, but it will chime because many millions of people do feel like life is a struggle. If the Tories want to tell voters that actually things are fine and any problems that do exist can only be solved by allowing businesses to pay even less tax, while giving American corporations much greater access to the UK market, keeping public spending low and reducing regulatory standards, so be it. For me, that looks like a brave strategy. Corbyn will probably see them through next time, but Corbyn will not be there forever. The Tories need to find a new way of looking at the world.

Wouldn't say the pitch is remotely bowlarks. The proposed solutions on the other hand...

HYUFD

alex. said:

HYUFD said:

Interesting on the above figures that although renewables are most favoured, nuclear energy is now more favoured than gas and coal

It's virtue signalling. The poll lists the General Public views on which are the "greenest" forms of energy. Nuclear beats gas and coal because it is believed to be greener. Put it another way, include a few buzzwords like "clean coal" and you could see that option zooming up the list.

The poll is arguably meaningless (like many polls of course) if people aren't given some idea of the relative costs, risks etc in advance.

It asks 'what energy sources should the UK be favouring in its energy mix'

JosiasJessop

Casino_Royale said:

Dura_Ace said:

DavidL said:

By the way where does Corbyn think we are going to find 400k people to work in the renewable energy field? Does he really think we have got a lot of unemployed engineers or construction workers hanging about waiting for his largess?

Immigration. Lots of it to punish tory voters.

It’s unlikely that you’re joking either.

Which is a disturbing insight into your mental state, like your rather nasty refusal to attend the funeral of someone on account of them being a Leave voter.

People are odd. I knew someone from South Yorkshire who refused to go to a dear friend's wedding in Birmingham as it was 'the south', filled with southern wa*kers, etc, etc.

MarqueeMark

RoyalBlue said:

Dura_Ace said:

DavidL said:

By the way where does Corbyn think we are going to find 400k people to work in the renewable energy field? Does he really think we have got a lot of unemployed engineers or construction workers hanging about waiting for his largess?

Immigration. Lots of it to punish tory voters.

How much immigration does Venezuela have?

-2.3 million since 2014.....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-45407617

HYUFD

kle4 said:

MarqueeMark said:

alex. said:

notme said:

SouthamObserver said:

Dura_Ace said:

MattW said:

On LabCon, I am interested in the unforeseen consequences of Chairman MaoDonnell's various grabs.

eg Pension funds own something like 3-5% of the UK stockmarket, worth £50-£150 bn. The loss of 10% of that stake whether by dilution or simple confiscation would be 5-15bn, I think. Which sounds very Brown-ish. Up to date seen hard to come by, but it is not really my area.

We're in the age of post-reality politics now. Only Briefcase Wankers care about things adding up or being affordable. See also Brexit and Trump.

Yep - the Brexit vote showed you can promise Unicorns and win. The far left has learned that lesson well. But Labour has at least realised that the current system is now failing to deliver to millions of people. The Tories are not even at that point yet. May promising further tax cuts for business and less regulation is not going to inspire many working people struggling to make ends meet.

There’s an over indulgence on the left though to wallow in poverty porn though. It was the mistake labour made under miliband. Actually people’s lives aren’t too bad, mass unemployemnt has disappeared, childhood poverty lowest for a generation, pensioner poverty all but disappeared. The system is working pretty darn well. The weakness for the conservatives surrounds the untrue narrative of schools and hospitals starved of funding and on the verge of collapse.

Younger families have wholesale seemed to stop supporting the conservatives.

They need a platform to attract them. Rent reform, mortgage reform (the stress tests put on mortgage applications means that people not on the ladder are getting refused mortgages or have to find very high deposits, when they are prefectly fine paying much higher rents.

Unfortunately what the Conservatives need is a Corbyn led Labour government.

Nobody needs a Corbyn government. Least of all the Tories, who will get put back in with the most horrendous economic mess to sort out, for which they will get massive grief when they have to take decisions where they will get no credit. Again.

The Tories are going to lose power at some point (It's not even certain they will make it to 2022 even with the FTPA) and given Labour is now a corbynite party they going to lose power to either Corbyn or an acolyte of Corbyn. So I the Tories had best hope they are at least not landslided next time so it takes a decade and more to recover.

The Tories are never going to be landslided by Corbyn, as long as he or a disciple remains Labour leader they will always be in the game

kle4

Roger said:

I'd say the Labour conference has gone better than anyone could have hoped. They've managed to straddle Brexit without bifurcating themselves. They've given serious hope to the Remainers. They've sidelined the old union barons (to an extent) without falling out and they put themselves well and trully centre stage on the most important issue of the day with the media hanging onto their every word.

A great platform for the leaders speech. Who'd have thought....

As these things go I think it has gone well for them. The brexit position is a fudge which would clearly not survive government or reality but As you say achieved it's purpose, there's been only a few gaffs or extreme talk which few will notice and overall impression, and the impression all parties want to give atthese things true or not, is that they are coming out of it more united not less.

Finish it off with a passionate speech playing to the masses and it's a good week for labour.

Foxy

alex. said:

Foxy said:

DavidL said:

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Beneath the waves of Brexit and anti-Semitism, Labour are sharpening up their retail offer very effectively. When they turn their minds again to the question of persuading the public rather than the question of party control, they may well get another sugar rush boost of enthusiasm in their support.

Yes, Labour are having a good conference. Jezzas speech should be interesting. He knows how to work a crowd.

Attention then shifts to the Tories. Can May top last years speech from hell!?

You'd like to think any messages behind her are nailed on for a start.

So was a Tory majority last year!

Oh cruel. I don't really agree that Labour have been having a good conference. They have ended up talking quite a lot about Brexit on which they are as divided as the rest of us. Of course the Tories are very likely to do the same.

No they really aren't as divided over Brexit, and while Labour have have kept up the tradition of having a few exciteable hotheads at fringe meetings, generally disagreements have been civil. I am not a fan of MacDonnells vision for industry, but challenging thestatus quo is likely to be popular.

I am tempted to make it over to Brum on Sunday to help welcome the Tory delegates. There were some embryonic plans for a pub meet up, Anything definite?

They're not "divided" because their official position is "Brexit with the exact same benefits as being in the EU". With a stock response, when challenged as to the fact that this is an unachievable aim on the basis of everything that has transpired so far being that "this is a reasonable position because the Conservatives said that that is what they were pursuing a year ago". It obviously wouldn't last 10 minutes if they were actually in Government.

Ultimately, Brexit for Labour members is not a visceral issue in the way it is for Tories, or for that matter UKIP and LibDems. It is a second order interest, and it is other issues that get the juices flowing.

I suspect that a Starmer led Brexit negotiation would be more successful than May's rigid "Chequers or nothing" negotiating stance. A particularly bizzare stance considering she cannot get her own party to agree it, yet alone the EU27.

The problem with Brexit is that all along it has been an internal Tory obsession with too many red lines. A Starmer approach would be much more positive about immigration, jurisdiction of European courts etc, a generally more positive approach. It may well be the only viable Brexit.

kle4

HYUFD said:

kle4 said:

MarqueeMark said:

alex. said:

notme said:

SouthamObserver said:

Dura_Ace said:

MattW said:

On LabCon, I am interested in the unforeseen consequences of Chairman MaoDonnell's various grabs.

eg Pension funds own something like 3-5% of the UK stockmarket, worth £50-£150 bn. The loss of 10% of that stake whether by dilution or simple confiscation would be 5-15bn, I think. Which sounds very Brown-ish. Up to date seen hard to come by, but it is not really my area.

We're in the age of post-reality politics now. Only Briefcase Wankers care about things adding up or being affordable. See also Brexit and Trump.

Yep - the Brexit vote showed you can promise Unicorns and win. The far left has learned that lesson well. But Labour has at least realised that the current system is now failing to deliver to millions of people. The Tories are not even at that point yet. May promising further tax cuts for business and less regulation is not going to inspire many working people struggling to make ends meet.

There’s an over indulgence on the left though to wallow in poverty porn though. It was the mistake labour made under miliband. Actually people’s lives aren’t too bad, mass unemployemnt has disappeared, childhood poverty lowest for a generation, pensioner poverty all but disappeared. The system is working pretty darn well. The weakness for the conservatives surrounds the untrue narrative of schools and hospitals starved

Unfortunately what the Conservatives need is a Corbyn led Labour government.

Nobody needs a Corbyn government. Least of all the Tories, who will get put back in with the most horrendous economic mess to sort out, for which they will get massive grief when they have to take decisions where they will get no credit. Again.

The Tories are going to lose power at some point (It's not even certain they will make it to 2022 even with the FTPA) and given Labour is now a corbynite party they going to lose power to either Corbyn or an acolyte of Corbyn. So I the Tories had best hope they are at least not landslided next time so it takes a decade and more to recover.

The Tories are never going to be landslided by Corbyn, as long as he or a disciple remains Labour leader they will always be in the game

Probably not, but is that the best they can do? They seem impossible to unite and so many factors are against them avoiding defeat next time looks very hard. Particular as the non corbynites are defeated and no longer fighting, just moaning every now and then .

hamiltonace

notme said:

alex. said:

notme said:

SouthamObserver said:

Dura_Ace said:

MattW said:

On LabCon, I am interested in the unforeseen consequences of Chairman MaoDonnell's various grabs.

eg Pension funds own something like 3-5% of the UK stockmarket, worth £50-£150 bn. The loss of 10% of that stake whether by dilution or simple confiscation would be 5-15bn, I think. Which sounds very Brown-ish. Up to date seen hard to come by, but it is not really my area.

We're in the age of post-reality politics now. Only Briefcase Wankers care about things adding up or being affordable. See also Brexit and Trump.

Yep - the Brexit vote showed you can promise Unicorns and win. The far left has learned that lesson well. But Labour has at least realised that the current system is now failing to deliver to millions of people. The Tories are not even at that point yet. May promising further tax cuts for business and less regulation is not going to inspire many working people struggling to make ends meet.

There’s an over indulgence on the left though to wallow in poverty porn though. It was the mistake labour made under miliband. Actually people’s lives aren’t too bad, mass unemployemnt has disappeared, childhood poverty lowest for a generation, pensioner poverty all but disappeared. The system is working pretty darn well. The weakness for the conservatives surrounds the untrue narrative of schools and hospitals starved of funding and on the verge of collapse.

Younger families have wholesale seemed to stop supporting the conservatives.

They need a platform to attract them. Rent reform, mortgage reform (the stress tests put on mortgage applications means that people not on the ladder are getting refused mortgages or have to find very high deposits, when they are prefectly fine paying much higher rents.

Unfortunately what the Conservatives need is a Corbyn led Labour government.

But the economic decline you get from government central planned economic development can take decades to filter through. Stagnation doesn’t a;pear for some time. They’ll bugger up the finances, they always do.

The trouble that labour faces is we have had one of the most anti business Tory governments for as long as I can remember. The result is an economy already heading downwards

currystar

Labour's pitch is vote Labour and "rich" people who are lazy and greedy and have done nothing to warrant their wealth will give you their money for which you will not have to do anything for. What a lovely world

currystar

hamiltonace said:

notme said:

alex. said:

notme said:

SouthamObserver said:

Dura_Ace said:

MattW said:

On LabCon, I am interested in the unforeseen consequences of Chairman MaoDonnell's various grabs.

eg Pension funds own something like 3-5% of the UK stockmarket, worth £50-£150 bn. The loss of 10% of that stake whether by dilution or simple confiscation would be 5-15bn, I think. Which sounds very Brown-ish. Up to date seen hard to come by, but it is not really my area.

We're in the age of post-reality politics now. Only Briefcase Wankers care about things adding up or being affordable. See also Brexit and Trump.

Yep - the Brexit vote showed you can promise Unicorns and win. The far left has learned that lesson well. But Labour has at least realised that the current system is now failing to deliver to millions of people. The Tories are not even at that point yet. May promising further tax cuts for business and less regulation is not going to inspire many working people struggling to make ends meet.

There’s an over indulgence on the left though to wallow in poverty porn though. It was the mistake labour made under miliband. Actually people’s lives aren’t too bad, mass unemployemnt has disappeared, childhood poverty lowest for a generation, pensioner poverty all but disappeared. The system is working pretty darn well. The weakness for the conservatives surrounds the untrue narrative of schools and hospitals starved of funding and on the verge of collapse.

Younger families have wholesale seemed to stop supporting the conservatives.

They need a platform to attract them. Rent reform, mortgage reform (the stress tests put on mortgage applications means that people not on the ladder are getting refused mortgages or have to find very high deposits, when they are prefectly fine paying much higher rents.

Unfortunately what the Conservatives need is a Corbyn led Labour government.

But the economic decline you get from government central planned economic development can take decades to filter through. Stagnation doesn’t a;pear for some time. They’ll bugger up the finances, they always do.

The trouble that labour faces is we have had one of the most anti business Tory governments for as long as I can remember. The result is an economy already heading downwards

Record employment??

Jonathan

Can Labour defeat the Tory party of "F*ck Business"?

Coming to an election poster near you soon.

HYUFD

kle4 said:

HYUFD said:

kle4 said:

MarqueeMark said:

alex. said:

notme said:

SouthamObserver said:

Dura_Ace said:

MattW said:

On LabCon, I am interested in the unforeseen consequences of Chairman MaoDonnell's various grabs.

eg Pension funds own something like 3-5% of the UK stockmarket, worth £50-£150 bn. The loss of 10% of that stake whether by dilution or simple confiscation would be 5-15bn, I think. Which sounds very Brown-ish. Up to date seen hard to come by, but it is not really my area.

We're in the age of post-reality politics now. Only Briefcase Wankers care about things adding up or being affordable. See also Brexit and Trump.

Yep - the Brexit vote showed you can further tax cuts for business and less regulation is not going to inspire many working people struggling to make ends meet.

There’s an over indulgence on the left though to wallow in poverty porn though. It was the mistake labour made under miliband. Actually people’s lives aren’t too bad, mass unemployemnt has disappeared, childhood poverty lowest for a generation, pensioner poverty all but disappeared. The system is working pretty darn well. The weakness for the conservatives surrounds the untrue narrative of schools and hospitals starved

Unfortunately what the Conservatives need is a Corbyn led Labour government.

Nobody needs a Corbyn government. Least of all the Tories, who will get put back in with the most horrendous economic mess to sort out, for which they will get massive grief when they have to take decisions where they will get no credit. Again.

The Tories are going to lose power at some point (It's not even certain they will make it to 2022 even with the FTPA) and given Labour is now a corbynite party they going to lose power to either Corbyn or an acolyte of Corbyn. So I the Tories had best hope they are at least not landslided next time so it takes a decade and more to recover.

The Tories are never going to be landslided by Corbyn, as long as he or a disciple remains Labour leader they will always be in the game

Probably not, but is that the best they can do? They seem impossible to unite and so many factors are against them avoiding defeat next time looks very hard. Particular as the non corbynites are defeated and no longer fighting, just moaning every now and then .

Even if Corbyn does become PM next time on current polls the Tories will still be the largest party and almost certainly having won a majority in England, Corbyn will be reliant on the SNP to prop him up, maybe the LDs too to get any legislation passed