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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It’s the WH2016 voter segments that said they were backing Hil

SystemSystem Posts: 11,007
edited September 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It’s the WH2016 voter segments that said they were backing Hillary but abstained that the GOP should worry about

We all recall how in much of key state polling at WH2016 that Clinton was overstated thus giving us a very false impression of what was going to happen.

Read the full story here


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Comments

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    Yee har
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    2nd like Watford... ideally.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    Midterms are usually protest votes against the incumbent President and the signs are November will be the biggest protest against the incumbent since 1994
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    Corbyn I see promising no more military interventions like Libya and Iraq while at the same time opposing the actions of the Myanmar and Israeli governments and promising to end the war in Syria
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    HYUFD said:

    Corbyn I see promising no more military interventions like Libya and Iraq while at the same time opposing the actions of the Myanmar and Israeli governments and promising to end the war in Syria

    He'll get them around the camp fire singing Kumbaya before you know it.
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    AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Anazina said:

    More lefty wankers doing actions that make them feel all good and fuzzy without caring on the effect it has on others:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-45638416

    Crisp packets are an utter menace. They destroy the beautiful countryside near where I live. Why doesn't Walkers make them biodegradable?
    I thought you said you lived in London ?
    You do realise that London has a countryside edge? Doesn't Bradford?
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943

    HYUFD said:

    Corbyn I see promising no more military interventions like Libya and Iraq while at the same time opposing the actions of the Myanmar and Israeli governments and promising to end the war in Syria

    He'll get them around the camp fire singing Kumbaya before you know it.
    Yes the Messiah will see it through
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited September 2018
    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    More lefty wankers doing actions that make them feel all good and fuzzy without caring on the effect it has on others:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-45638416

    Crisp packets are an utter menace. They destroy the beautiful countryside near where I live. Why doesn't Walkers make them biodegradable?
    I thought you said you lived in London ?
    You do realise that London has a countryside edge? Doesn't Bradford?
    I thought London was the urban equivalent of a Klein bottle? [niche]
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,378
    The occupant of the White

    An interesting slip, and curiously apt in the case of the current POTUS.
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    AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    Anorak said:

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    More lefty wankers doing actions that make them feel all good and fuzzy without caring on the effect it has on others:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-45638416

    Crisp packets are an utter menace. They destroy the beautiful countryside near where I live. Why doesn't Walkers make them biodegradable?
    I thought you said you lived in London ?
    You do realise that London has a countryside edge? Doesn't Bradford?
    I thought London was the urban equivalent of a Klein bottle? [niche]
    Chortle. To many PBers, London = W1 (and even then only about 0.1 mile from Piccadilly Circus) !!
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,321
    HYUFD said:

    Corbyn I see promising no more military interventions like Libya and Iraq while at the same time opposing the actions of the Myanmar and Israeli governments and promising to end the war in Syria

    I don't think he "promised to end the war", and if he did that's unrealistic, but in other respects there's a perfectly respectable view that we should be active in criticising other countries (pace Cyclefree in the last thread, he had a shot at Russia too), without sending our troops there to start killing one side or the other - especially as history shows that we sometimes end up being attacked by the faction we were intervening to help.
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    AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    I completely forgot about the Corbynator's speech and caught only the last 15 seconds. I noted that his suit jacket was too big for him.

    Was the speech any good?
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,157
    edited September 2018
    deleted
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    Jeremy Corbyn in fresh anti-Semitism row over picture with activist who once asked: 'the Holocaust: yes or no?'

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/09/25/corbyn-fresh-anti-semitism-row-picture-activistwho-asked-holocaust/
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    edited September 2018
    Anazina said:

    Anorak said:

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    More lefty wankers doing actions that make them feel all good and fuzzy without caring on the effect it has on others:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-45638416

    Crisp packets are an utter menace. They destroy the beautiful countryside near where I live. Why doesn't Walkers make them biodegradable?
    I thought you said you lived in London ?
    You do realise that London has a countryside edge? Doesn't Bradford?
    I thought London was the urban equivalent of a Klein bottle? [niche]
    Chortle. To many PBers, London = W1 (and even then only about 0.1 mile from Piccadilly Circus) !!
    I've lived south of the river, I'll have you know!

    (There was a good gag from a stand up comedian , whose name escapes me. In north London, you see all these blue circles, with "ABC famous bloke lived here". In south London, you see all these yellow rectangles, with "MURDER: can you help?"......)
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    HYUFD said:
    That's a badly written question with too many negatives.
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    currystarcurrystar Posts: 1,171
    Does anyone have any idea what Labour's negotiating stance would be with the EU?
    As far as I can see that want all the benefits of the EU otherwise they would never agree to any deal that May achieves.
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    currystar said:

    Does anyone have any idea what Labour's negotiating stance would be with the EU?
    As far as I can see that want all the benefits of the EU otherwise they would never agree to any deal that May achieves.

    Cake , Cherries and eating comes to mind.
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    currystar said:

    Does anyone have any idea what Labour's negotiating stance would be with the EU?
    As far as I can see that want all the benefits of the EU otherwise they would never agree to any deal that May achieves.

    https://twitter.com/Jamin2g/status/1044934252327063552
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,157

    HYUFD said:

    Corbyn I see promising no more military interventions like Libya and Iraq while at the same time opposing the actions of the Myanmar and Israeli governments and promising to end the war in Syria

    I don't think he "promised to end the war", and if he did that's unrealistic, but in other respects there's a perfectly respectable view that we should be active in criticising other countries (pace Cyclefree in the last thread, he had a shot at Russia too), without sending our troops there to start killing one side or the other - especially as history shows that we sometimes end up being attacked by the faction we were intervening to help.
    I was criticising his failure to include Russia (and, indeed, Iran) in the list of countries which harasses journalists.

    "Journalists from Turkey to Myanmar and Colombia are being imprisoned, harassed or sometimes killed by authoritarian governments and powerful corporate interests just for doing their job”

    To which @FrancisUrquhart and@NorthofStoke replied

    “But when Iran did it, I continued to do my gig on Press Tv....

    I think that part of his speech must take the 2018 political hypocrisy award!”


    And no mention of Russia which hardly treats its journalists with kid gloves.

    Doubtless Corbyn will remember these words when British journalists seek to do their job scrutinising the Labour party and the next Labour government.

    Was it not one Keir Starmer who sought to imprison journalists under an ancient law and was soundly admonished by the Court of Appeal?

    I’d also like to know which corporate interests have killed and imprisoned journalists and in which countries.

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    currystarcurrystar Posts: 1,171

    currystar said:

    Does anyone have any idea what Labour's negotiating stance would be with the EU?
    As far as I can see that want all the benefits of the EU otherwise they would never agree to any deal that May achieves.

    https://twitter.com/Jamin2g/status/1044934252327063552
    So Michael Barnier will just crumble when Corbyn turns up? I know politics is politics but what John Mcdonnell hassaid in this interview is just plain silly and a complete lie and he knows it. Does anyone else think otherwise?
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    currystar said:

    Does anyone have any idea what Labour's negotiating stance would be with the EU?
    As far as I can see that want all the benefits of the EU otherwise they would never agree to any deal that May achieves.

    JC will do, and be, whatever you wish. Whatever the Tories can do, new Improved Labour can do better.
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    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    More lefty wankers doing actions that make them feel all good and fuzzy without caring on the effect it has on others:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-45638416

    Crisp packets are an utter menace. They destroy the beautiful countryside near where I live. Why doesn't Walkers make them biodegradable?
    I thought you said you lived in London ?
    You do realise that London has a countryside edge? Doesn't Bradford?
    Hahaha,The way you talk about London you would think you live in inner london built up areas.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    Any winners on Corbyn Speech Bingo?
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    AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    More lefty wankers doing actions that make them feel all good and fuzzy without caring on the effect it has on others:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-45638416

    Crisp packets are an utter menace. They destroy the beautiful countryside near where I live. Why doesn't Walkers make them biodegradable?
    I thought you said you lived in London ?
    You do realise that London has a countryside edge? Doesn't Bradford?
    Hahaha,The way you talk about London you would think you live in inner london built up areas.
    Citation required.

    I live in the Greater London suburbs, work in central London. Like many millions of others.

    I think it is your poor grasp of London geography that is letting you down, to be honest.
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    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    More lefty wankers doing actions that make them feel all good and fuzzy without caring on the effect it has on others:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-45638416

    Crisp packets are an utter menace. They destroy the beautiful countryside near where I live. Why doesn't Walkers make them biodegradable?
    I thought you said you lived in London ?
    You do realise that London has a countryside edge? Doesn't Bradford?
    Hahaha,The way you talk about London you would think you live in inner london built up areas.
    Citation required.

    I live in the Greater London suburbs, work in central London. Like many millions of others.

    I think it is your poor grasp of London geography that is letting you down, to be honest.
    No ,you are letting me down.
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    tlg86 said:

    Any winners on Corbyn Speech Bingo?

    Peterloo Massacre?
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    PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    John_M said:

    currystar said:

    Does anyone have any idea what Labour's negotiating stance would be with the EU?
    As far as I can see that want all the benefits of the EU otherwise they would never agree to any deal that May achieves.

    JC will do, and be, whatever you wish. Whatever the Tories can do, new Improved Labour can do better.
    Opposition is about what you wouldn’t do. Government is about what you wouldn’t have done, and what you are now doing to fix it. Oppositions never say what they would really do in government, because they can’t predict precisely what damage the current government will do between today and when they, as new incoming government, will have to work out how to fix it.
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    Good afternoon, comrades.

    Was the Supreme Leader's speech excellent, or sublime?
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    AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    edited September 2018

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    More lefty wankers doing actions that make them feel all good and fuzzy without caring on the effect it has on others:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-45638416

    Crisp packets are an utter menace. They destroy the beautiful countryside near where I live. Why doesn't Walkers make them biodegradable?
    I thought you said you lived in London ?
    You do realise that London has a countryside edge? Doesn't Bradford?
    Hahaha,The way you talk about London you would think you live in inner london built up areas.
    Citation required.

    I live in the Greater London suburbs, work in central London. Like many millions of others.

    I think it is your poor grasp of London geography that is letting you down, to be honest.
    No ,you are letting me down.
    I'm surprised I ever got your hopes up in the first place.
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    AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    tlg86 said:
    I was amazed to read that 47% of Greater London itself is green space (this does not include the vast open spaces like Epping Forest and Windsor Great Park which are mostly just outside the boundary). I knew London was a very green city (and I live a couple of miles from the edge of open countryside) but was surprised to read the ratio was that high.
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    PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    Anorak said:

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    More lefty wankers doing actions that make them feel all good and fuzzy without caring on the effect it has on others:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-45638416

    Crisp packets are an utter menace. They destroy the beautiful countryside near where I live. Why doesn't Walkers make them biodegradable?
    I thought you said you lived in London ?
    You do realise that London has a countryside edge? Doesn't Bradford?
    I thought London was the urban equivalent of a Klein bottle? [niche]
    In the sense of ‘one surface, no boundary’, or ‘axiomatically up its own arse’?
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799
    Anazina said:

    tlg86 said:
    I was amazed to read that 47% of Greater London itself is green space (this does not include the vast open spaces like Epping Forest and Windsor Great Park which are mostly just outside the boundary). I knew London was a very green city (and I live a couple of miles from the edge of open countryside) but was surprised to read the ratio was that high.
    About a third of Enfield is open countryside.
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    Good afternoon, comrades.

    Was the Supreme Leader's speech excellent, or sublime?

    It was pretty good. Not being ironic either.
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    I've just googled this and found no hits, so I would like to place on record the term:

    Labour Leavership

    to describe Corbyn and McDonnell.

    Thank you.
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    Good afternoon, comrades.

    Was the Supreme Leader's speech excellent, or sublime?

    You're a week early - Tories cough-fest is next week.
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Polruan said:

    Anorak said:

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    More lefty wankers doing actions that make them feel all good and fuzzy without caring on the effect it has on others:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-45638416

    Crisp packets are an utter menace. They destroy the beautiful countryside near where I live. Why doesn't Walkers make them biodegradable?
    I thought you said you lived in London ?
    You do realise that London has a countryside edge? Doesn't Bradford?
    I thought London was the urban equivalent of a Klein bottle? [niche]
    In the sense of ‘one surface, no boundary’, or ‘axiomatically up its own arse’?
    Why quibble?
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,157
    Polruan said:

    John_M said:

    currystar said:

    Does anyone have any idea what Labour's negotiating stance would be with the EU?
    As far as I can see that want all the benefits of the EU otherwise they would never agree to any deal that May achieves.

    JC will do, and be, whatever you wish. Whatever the Tories can do, new Improved Labour can do better.
    Opposition is about what you wouldn’t do. Government is about what you wouldn’t have done, and what you are now doing to fix it. Oppositions never say what they would really do in government, because they can’t predict precisely what damage the current government will do between today and when they, as new incoming government, will have to work out how to fix it.

    If Labour really thinks it can negotiate Brexit better than the Tories then they should be able to spell out which of the current government's red lines would no longer be red lines for a Labour government. We know what the EU's red lines are. So which, if any, would be Labour's?

    They really should be able to tell us whether or not they want any or all of the following:-

    - FoM
    - Membership of the CU
    - Membership of the SM
    - Jurisdiction of the ECJ
    - NI within the CU
    - NI within the SM
    - A customs/regulatory border between NI and the rest of the UK

    - and so on.

    If in reality they want the same things as the Tories, then however charmingly they behave, they will get the same answer from the EU as Mrs May has.

    If Labour cannot now give straight answers to these questions then they are simply talking out of their arse.

    The difficulties of the negotiations have little to do with personalities or negotiating styles and everything to do with the substance of what the British government wants and this being unacceptable to the EU given their own red lines.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    Anazina said:

    tlg86 said:
    I was amazed to read that 47% of Greater London itself is green space (this does not include the vast open spaces like Epping Forest and Windsor Great Park which are mostly just outside the boundary). I knew London was a very green city (and I live a couple of miles from the edge of open countryside) but was surprised to read the ratio was that high.
    There is a very small proportion of Greater London which is actually classified as rural:

    https://tinyurl.com/ybbe66ut

    @Tykejohnno might be interested to know that Leeds/Bradford is problematic for creating the built-up areas. The algorithms used by Ordnance Survey treat spaces enclosed by built-up areas as part of that built-up area. So Hyde Park gets counted as being in the London built-up area. The bit between Leeds and Bradford is enclosed by the same built-up area which means it too counts as being that built-up area, even though it is a rural area.
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    If you have a nice green valley with no roads, hypothetically, and you drive a road through it, so it remains 90% green but is it is also 100% buggered. Now apply that rule to southern England let alone London.
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    Anazina said:

    tlg86 said:
    I was amazed to read that 47% of Greater London itself is green space (this does not include the vast open spaces like Epping Forest and Windsor Great Park which are mostly just outside the boundary). I knew London was a very green city (and I live a couple of miles from the edge of open countryside) but was surprised to read the ratio was that high.
    When I was living in London, I heard that the city is the 'greenest' of any 'old' city - i.e. not in the new world.

    I've no idea if this is true, but it feels right.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,249
    Cyclefree said:

    Polruan said:

    John_M said:

    currystar said:

    Does anyone have any idea what Labour's negotiating stance would be with the EU?
    As far as I can see that want all the benefits of the EU otherwise they would never agree to any deal that May achieves.

    JC will do, and be, whatever you wish. Whatever the Tories can do, new Improved Labour can do better.
    Opposition is about what you wouldn’t do. Government is about what you wouldn’t have done, and what you are now doing to fix it. Oppositions never say what they would really do in government, because they can’t predict precisely what damage the current government will do between today and when they, as new incoming government, will have to work out how to fix it.

    If Labour really thinks it can negotiate Brexit better than the Tories then they should be able to spell out which of the current government's red lines would no longer be red lines for a Labour government. We know what the EU's red lines are. So which, if any, would be Labour's?

    They really should be able to tell us whether or not they want any or all of the following:-

    - FoM
    - Membership of the CU
    - Membership of the SM
    - Jurisdiction of the ECJ
    - NI within the CU
    - NI within the SM
    - A customs/regulatory border between NI and the rest of the UK

    - and so on.

    If in reality they want the same things as the Tories, then however charmingly they behave, they will get the same answer from the EU as Mrs May has.

    If Labour cannot now give straight answers to these questions then they are simply talking out of their arse.

    The difficulties of the negotiations have little to do with personalities or negotiating styles and everything to do with the substance of what the British government wants and this being unacceptable to the EU given their own red lines.
    tl;dr :smile:

    No they don't. They just need to keep opposing and promising owls.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,907
    currystar said:

    Does anyone have any idea what Labour's negotiating stance would be with the EU?
    As far as I can see that want all the benefits of the EU otherwise they would never agree to any deal that May achieves.

    The big difference is Labour is fine with the customs union. On the single market, more tricky, bit more cakeism. But they have a more room to negotiate because they don't care about trade deals. The issue would be FOM I think.
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    Afternoon all. I've been away on a jaunt to Lisbon (which was very pleasant), so I missed the excitement of the Labour conference.

    I've just been reading Corbyn's speech, which looks a very professionally-written job.

    The Brexit positioning is interesting. Since Labour are (not unreasonably) saying that No Deal would be a disaster, how are they going to vote against any deal Theresa May might come back with? Won't they own the disaster if they do so? The implication is that they are preparing the ground to accept any deal, or at least to abstain on it, whilst no doubt saying they could have done better.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799
    Cyclefree said:

    Polruan said:

    John_M said:

    currystar said:

    Does anyone have any idea what Labour's negotiating stance would be with the EU?
    As far as I can see that want all the benefits of the EU otherwise they would never agree to any deal that May achieves.

    JC will do, and be, whatever you wish. Whatever the Tories can do, new Improved Labour can do better.
    Opposition is about what you wouldn’t do. Government is about what you wouldn’t have done, and what you are now doing to fix it. Oppositions never say what they would really do in government, because they can’t predict precisely what damage the current government will do between today and when they, as new incoming government, will have to work out how to fix it.

    If Labour really thinks it can negotiate Brexit better than the Tories then they should be able to spell out which of the current government's red lines would no longer be red lines for a Labour government. We know what the EU's red lines are. So which, if any, would be Labour's?

    They really should be able to tell us whether or not they want any or all of the following:-

    - FoM
    - Membership of the CU
    - Membership of the SM
    - Jurisdiction of the ECJ
    - NI within the CU
    - NI within the SM
    - A customs/regulatory border between NI and the rest of the UK

    - and so on.

    If in reality they want the same things as the Tories, then however charmingly they behave, they will get the same answer from the EU as Mrs May has.

    If Labour cannot now give straight answers to these questions then they are simply talking out of their arse.

    The difficulties of the negotiations have little to do with personalities or negotiating styles and everything to do with the substance of what the British government wants and this being unacceptable to the EU given their own red lines.
    All they need to do is to oppose everything the government does.
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    AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Polruan said:

    John_M said:

    currystar said:

    Does anyone have any idea what Labour's negotiating stance would be with the EU?
    As far as I can see that want all the benefits of the EU otherwise they would never agree to any deal that May achieves.

    JC will do, and be, whatever you wish. Whatever the Tories can do, new Improved Labour can do better.
    Opposition is about what you wouldn’t do. Government is about what you wouldn’t have done, and what you are now doing to fix it. Oppositions never say what they would really do in government, because they can’t predict precisely what damage the current government will do between today and when they, as new incoming government, will have to work out how to fix it.

    If Labour really thinks it can negotiate Brexit better than the Tories then they should be able to spell out which of the current government's red lines would no longer be red lines for a Labour government. We know what the EU's red lines are. So which, if any, would be Labour's?

    They really should be able to tell us whether or not they want any or all of the following:-

    - FoM
    - Membership of the CU
    - Membership of the SM
    - Jurisdiction of the ECJ
    - NI within the CU
    - NI within the SM
    - A customs/regulatory border between NI and the rest of the UK

    - and so on.

    If in reality they want the same things as the Tories, then however charmingly they behave, they will get the same answer from the EU as Mrs May has.

    If Labour cannot now give straight answers to these questions then they are simply talking out of their arse.

    The difficulties of the negotiations have little to do with personalities or negotiating styles and everything to do with the substance of what the British government wants and this being unacceptable to the EU given their own red lines.
    tl;dr :smile:

    No they don't. They just need to keep opposing and promising owls.
    Indeed. It's not clear to me why this is so hard to grasp. The studied ambiguity suits Labour, so why do anything else for now when they don't need to. In the near-future however @RichardNabavi raises an important question above...
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    Afternoon all. I've been away on a jaunt to Lisbon (which was very pleasant), so I missed the excitement of the Labour conference.

    I've just been reading Corbyn's speech, which looks a very professionally-written job.

    The Brexit positioning is interesting. Since Labour are (not unreasonably) saying that No Deal would be a disaster, how are they going to vote against any deal Theresa May might come back with? Won't they own the disaster if they do so? The implication is that they are preparing the ground to accept any deal, or at least to abstain on it, whilst no doubt saying they could have done better.

    The Commons will both mandate the government to avoid crash Brexit whilst simultaneously rejecting the remaining options which would avoid crash Brexit. So we are going to need something to change as clearly thats not untenable but absurd.
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    AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Anazina said:

    tlg86 said:
    I was amazed to read that 47% of Greater London itself is green space (this does not include the vast open spaces like Epping Forest and Windsor Great Park which are mostly just outside the boundary). I knew London was a very green city (and I live a couple of miles from the edge of open countryside) but was surprised to read the ratio was that high.
    When I was living in London, I heard that the city is the 'greenest' of any 'old' city - i.e. not in the new world.

    I've no idea if this is true, but it feels right.

    I couldn't imagine a major old-world city that has more, so it probably is true.
  • Options
    AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    tlg86 said:

    Anazina said:

    tlg86 said:
    I was amazed to read that 47% of Greater London itself is green space (this does not include the vast open spaces like Epping Forest and Windsor Great Park which are mostly just outside the boundary). I knew London was a very green city (and I live a couple of miles from the edge of open countryside) but was surprised to read the ratio was that high.
    There is a very small proportion of Greater London which is actually classified as rural:

    https://tinyurl.com/ybbe66ut

    @Tykejohnno might be interested to know that Leeds/Bradford is problematic for creating the built-up areas. The algorithms used by Ordnance Survey treat spaces enclosed by built-up areas as part of that built-up area. So Hyde Park gets counted as being in the London built-up area. The bit between Leeds and Bradford is enclosed by the same built-up area which means it too counts as being that built-up area, even though it is a rural area.
    That's a very long research document – which part is rural – I would guess somewhere in the far north east, north of Chingford perhaps, that small part of Epping Forest which is in London or maybe in the far south-east towards Box Hill, Kent borders??
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    tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,546

    Afternoon all. I've been away on a jaunt to Lisbon (which was very pleasant), so I missed the excitement of the Labour conference.

    I've just been reading Corbyn's speech, which looks a very professionally-written job.

    The Brexit positioning is interesting. Since Labour are (not unreasonably) saying that No Deal would be a disaster, how are they going to vote against any deal Theresa May might come back with? Won't they own the disaster if they do so? The implication is that they are preparing the ground to accept any deal, or at least to abstain on it, whilst no doubt saying they could have done better.

    Hope you had a good break.
    I don't see where the pressure will come from to vote for / abstain on the deal. The Tories have ignored everything Labour have said, with the customs union being the obvious one. I'd have thought the pressure would be on the ERG, they are in the party of Government and supposedly support Brexit. I just wonder if there might be some there who blink eventually?
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799

    Rather an odd story. What is supposed to be offensive about this poster?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45650462
  • Options
    AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    Sean_F said:

    Anazina said:

    tlg86 said:
    I was amazed to read that 47% of Greater London itself is green space (this does not include the vast open spaces like Epping Forest and Windsor Great Park which are mostly just outside the boundary). I knew London was a very green city (and I live a couple of miles from the edge of open countryside) but was surprised to read the ratio was that high.
    About a third of Enfield is open countryside.
    I was over there just the other day garden plant shopping! It has a bizarre gardening enclave around Crews Hill which I am sure you are familiar with (a landscaper friend claims its the biggest gardening retail district in Europe??). As you say, much of the area is open countryside. I saw some grouse and pheasant after the shopping trip as we took a walk out along the lanes.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited September 2018
    tpfkar said:

    Afternoon all. I've been away on a jaunt to Lisbon (which was very pleasant), so I missed the excitement of the Labour conference.

    I've just been reading Corbyn's speech, which looks a very professionally-written job.

    The Brexit positioning is interesting. Since Labour are (not unreasonably) saying that No Deal would be a disaster, how are they going to vote against any deal Theresa May might come back with? Won't they own the disaster if they do so? The implication is that they are preparing the ground to accept any deal, or at least to abstain on it, whilst no doubt saying they could have done better.

    Hope you had a good break.
    I don't see where the pressure will come from to vote for / abstain on the deal. The Tories have ignored everything Labour have said, with the customs union being the obvious one. I'd have thought the pressure would be on the ERG, they are in the party of Government and supposedly support Brexit. I just wonder if there might be some there who blink eventually?
    Of course the pressure will be on the ERG. However, the big picture would be that Labour, the LibDems and the SNP colluded with the headbangers to kill off the deal (which will no doubt look wonderful if we can't have it, human nature being what it is). If the result is chaos, then those who voted for the chaos will own the chaos. This looks incredibly dangerous for Labour, which is why I don't think they'll do it. Of course it's also incredibly dangerous for the country, but that won't be a consideration.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799
    Anazina said:

    Sean_F said:

    Anazina said:

    tlg86 said:
    I was amazed to read that 47% of Greater London itself is green space (this does not include the vast open spaces like Epping Forest and Windsor Great Park which are mostly just outside the boundary). I knew London was a very green city (and I live a couple of miles from the edge of open countryside) but was surprised to read the ratio was that high.
    About a third of Enfield is open countryside.
    I was over there just the other day garden plant shopping! It has a bizarre gardening enclave around Crews Hill which I am sure you are familiar with (a landscaper friend claims its the biggest gardening retail district in Europe??). As you say, much of the area is open countryside. I saw some grouse and pheasant after the shopping trip as we took a walk out along the lanes.
    Crews Hill was developed that way by Italian POW's who were market gardeners, and who stayed on after WWII.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    Anazina said:

    tlg86 said:

    Anazina said:

    tlg86 said:
    I was amazed to read that 47% of Greater London itself is green space (this does not include the vast open spaces like Epping Forest and Windsor Great Park which are mostly just outside the boundary). I knew London was a very green city (and I live a couple of miles from the edge of open countryside) but was surprised to read the ratio was that high.
    There is a very small proportion of Greater London which is actually classified as rural:

    https://tinyurl.com/ybbe66ut

    @Tykejohnno might be interested to know that Leeds/Bradford is problematic for creating the built-up areas. The algorithms used by Ordnance Survey treat spaces enclosed by built-up areas as part of that built-up area. So Hyde Park gets counted as being in the London built-up area. The bit between Leeds and Bradford is enclosed by the same built-up area which means it too counts as being that built-up area, even though it is a rural area.
    That's a very long research document – which part is rural – I would guess somewhere in the far north east, north of Chingford perhaps, that small part of Epping Forest which is in London or maybe in the far south-east towards Box Hill, Kent borders??
    The latter, I think.
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    rkrkrk said:

    currystar said:

    Does anyone have any idea what Labour's negotiating stance would be with the EU?
    As far as I can see that want all the benefits of the EU otherwise they would never agree to any deal that May achieves.

    The big difference is Labour is fine with the customs union. On the single market, more tricky, bit more cakeism. But they have a more room to negotiate because they don't care about trade deals. The issue would be FOM I think.
    As there won't be any trade deals that won't pose a problem. I know that Liam Fox says we will get much better trade deals than the one we have as part of the EU but as anyone with a brain can see you don't give preferential terms to the smaller party (us) than you do the bigger party (the EU).

    FOM is the big Labour issue. A LOT of Labour voters genuinely fed up with foreign workers reducing wages. Or in some cases just fed up with foreigners. That even the crash Brexit people say there won't be any significant change in migration must really hack them off. How any politician in any party squares off expectations with practical reality is beyond me.
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    AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    edited September 2018

    Afternoon all. I've been away on a jaunt to Lisbon (which was very pleasant), so I missed the excitement of the Labour conference.

    I've just been reading Corbyn's speech, which looks a very professionally-written job.

    The Brexit positioning is interesting. Since Labour are (not unreasonably) saying that No Deal would be a disaster, how are they going to vote against any deal Theresa May might come back with? Won't they own the disaster if they do so? The implication is that they are preparing the ground to accept any deal, or at least to abstain on it, whilst no doubt saying they could have done better.

    The Commons will both mandate the government to avoid crash Brexit whilst simultaneously rejecting the remaining options which would avoid crash Brexit. So we are going to need something to change as clearly thats not untenable but absurd.
    I expect they will go for a CU in the end, as someone said upthread, someone will blink. The CU could be positioned as temporary/transitionary and the can kicked heartily down the road.
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    Mr. F, some people just like controlling what others can and cannot say, and, rather than using some sort of argument, prefer to just claim they felt offence. Because feelings mean you don't need the power of reason, apparently.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    Anazina said:
    And isn’t the company responsible for today’s rail delays actually publicly owned? :D
  • Options
    AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    tlg86 said:

    Anazina said:

    tlg86 said:

    Anazina said:

    tlg86 said:
    I was amazed to read that 47% of Greater London itself is green space (this does not include the vast open spaces like Epping Forest and Windsor Great Park which are mostly just outside the boundary). I knew London was a very green city (and I live a couple of miles from the edge of open countryside) but was surprised to read the ratio was that high.
    There is a very small proportion of Greater London which is actually classified as rural:

    https://tinyurl.com/ybbe66ut

    @Tykejohnno might be interested to know that Leeds/Bradford is problematic for creating the built-up areas. The algorithms used by Ordnance Survey treat spaces enclosed by built-up areas as part of that built-up area. So Hyde Park gets counted as being in the London built-up area. The bit between Leeds and Bradford is enclosed by the same built-up area which means it too counts as being that built-up area, even though it is a rural area.
    That's a very long research document – which part is rural – I would guess somewhere in the far north east, north of Chingford perhaps, that small part of Epping Forest which is in London or maybe in the far south-east towards Box Hill, Kent borders??
    The latter, I think.
    Interesting, thanks.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited September 2018
    Anazina said:

    Afternoon all. I've been away on a jaunt to Lisbon (which was very pleasant), so I missed the excitement of the Labour conference.

    I've just been reading Corbyn's speech, which looks a very professionally-written job.

    The Brexit positioning is interesting. Since Labour are (not unreasonably) saying that No Deal would be a disaster, how are they going to vote against any deal Theresa May might come back with? Won't they own the disaster if they do so? The implication is that they are preparing the ground to accept any deal, or at least to abstain on it, whilst no doubt saying they could have done better.

    The Commons will both mandate the government to avoid crash Brexit whilst simultaneously rejecting the remaining options which would avoid crash Brexit. So we are going to need something to change as clearly thats not untenable but absurd.
    I expect they will go for a CU in the end, as someone said upthread, someone will blink.
    I don't see why the EU - whose principal objective seems to be to prevent the UK from having the full benefits of membership without its full obligations - would accept that.
  • Options
    PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    Cyclefree said:

    Polruan said:

    John_M said:

    currystar said:

    Does anyone have any idea what Labour's negotiating stance would be with the EU?
    As far as I can see that want all the benefits of the EU otherwise they would never agree to any deal that May achieves.

    JC will do, and be, whatever you wish. Whatever the Tories can do, new Improved Labour can do better.
    Opposition is about what you wouldn’t do. Government is about what you wouldn’t have done, and what you are now doing to fix it. Oppositions never say what they would really do in government, because they can’t predict precisely what damage the current government will do between today and when they, as new incoming government, will have to work out how to fix it.

    If Labour really thinks it can negotiate Brexit better than the Tories then they should be able to spell out which of the current government's red lines would no longer be red lines for a Labour government. We know what the EU's red lines are. So which, if any, would be Labour's?

    They really should be able to tell us whether or not they want any or all of the following:-

    - FoM
    - Membership of the CU
    - Membership of the SM
    - Jurisdiction of the ECJ
    - NI within the CU
    - NI within the SM
    - A customs/regulatory border between NI and the rest of the UK

    - and so on.

    If in reality they want the same things as the Tories, then however charmingly they behave, they will get the same answer from the EU as Mrs May has.

    If Labour cannot now give straight answers to these questions then they are simply talking out of their arse.

    The difficulties of the negotiations have little to do with personalities or negotiating styles and everything to do with the substance of what the British government wants and this being unacceptable to the EU given their own red lines.
    What would the benefit be for the Labour Party (or indeed the country) if they did this? I’m struggling to see any.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    Mr. F, some people just like controlling what others can and cannot say, and, rather than using some sort of argument, prefer to just claim they felt offence. Because feelings mean you don't need the power of reason, apparently.

    I’m offended by this comment. Where are the moderators when you need them??
  • Options
    AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    Sean_F said:

    Anazina said:

    Sean_F said:

    Anazina said:

    tlg86 said:
    I was amazed to read that 47% of Greater London itself is green space (this does not include the vast open spaces like Epping Forest and Windsor Great Park which are mostly just outside the boundary). I knew London was a very green city (and I live a couple of miles from the edge of open countryside) but was surprised to read the ratio was that high.
    About a third of Enfield is open countryside.
    I was over there just the other day garden plant shopping! It has a bizarre gardening enclave around Crews Hill which I am sure you are familiar with (a landscaper friend claims its the biggest gardening retail district in Europe??). As you say, much of the area is open countryside. I saw some grouse and pheasant after the shopping trip as we took a walk out along the lanes.
    Crews Hill was developed that way by Italian POW's who were market gardeners, and who stayed on after WWII.
    Fascinating history – that I did not know. Many thanks.
  • Options
    Sean_F said:


    Rather an odd story. What is supposed to be offensive about this poster?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45650462

    To understand that, ask yourself why someone would pay to have it erected
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799
    tlg86 said:

    Anazina said:

    tlg86 said:

    Anazina said:

    tlg86 said:
    I was amazed to read that 47% of Greater London itself is green space (this does not include the vast open spaces like Epping Forest and Windsor Great Park which are mostly just outside the boundary). I knew London was a very green city (and I live a couple of miles from the edge of open countryside) but was surprised to read the ratio was that high.
    There is a very small proportion of Greater London which is actually classified as rural:

    https://tinyurl.com/ybbe66ut

    @Tykejohnno might be interested to know that Leeds/Bradford is problematic for creating the built-up areas. The algorithms used by Ordnance Survey treat spaces enclosed by built-up areas as part of that built-up area. So Hyde Park gets counted as being in the London built-up area. The bit between Leeds and Bradford is enclosed by the same built-up area which means it too counts as being that built-up area, even though it is a rural area.
    That's a very long research document – which part is rural – I would guess somewhere in the far north east, north of Chingford perhaps, that small part of Epping Forest which is in London or maybe in the far south-east towards Box Hill, Kent borders??
    The latter, I think.
    Botany Bay is separated from both Enfield Town and Potters Bar by farmland, so would probably count as rural.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    Polruan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Polruan said:

    John_M said:

    currystar said:

    Does anyone have any idea what Labour's negotiating stance would be with the EU?
    As far as I can see that want all the benefits of the EU otherwise they would never agree to any deal that May achieves.

    JC will do, and be, whatever you wish. Whatever the Tories can do, new Improved Labour can do better.
    Opposition is about what you wouldn’t do. Government is about what you wouldn’t have done, and what you are now doing to fix it. Oppositions never say what they would really do in government, because they can’t predict precisely what damage the current government will do between today and when they, as new incoming government, will have to work out how to fix it.

    If Labour really thinks it can negotiate Brexit better than the Tories then they should be able to spell out which of the current government's red lines would no longer be red lines for a Labour government. We know what the EU's red lines are. So which, if any, would be Labour's?

    They really should be able to tell us whether or not they want any or all of the following:-

    - FoM
    - Membership of the CU
    - Membership of the SM
    - Jurisdiction of the ECJ
    - NI within the CU
    - NI within the SM
    - A customs/regulatory border between NI and the rest of the UK

    - and so on.

    If in reality they want the same things as the Tories, then however charmingly they behave, they will get the same answer from the EU as Mrs May has.

    If Labour cannot now give straight answers to these questions then they are simply talking out of their arse.

    The difficulties of the negotiations have little to do with personalities or negotiating styles and everything to do with the substance of what the British government wants and this being unacceptable to the EU given their own red lines.
    What would the benefit be for the Labour Party (or indeed the country) if they did this? I’m struggling to see any.
    They wouldn't look like a bunch of dishonest shits?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131

    tpfkar said:

    Afternoon all. I've been away on a jaunt to Lisbon (which was very pleasant), so I missed the excitement of the Labour conference.

    I've just been reading Corbyn's speech, which looks a very professionally-written job.

    The Brexit positioning is interesting. Since Labour are (not unreasonably) saying that No Deal would be a disaster, how are they going to vote against any deal Theresa May might come back with? Won't they own the disaster if they do so? The implication is that they are preparing the ground to accept any deal, or at least to abstain on it, whilst no doubt saying they could have done better.

    Hope you had a good break.
    I don't see where the pressure will come from to vote for / abstain on the deal. The Tories have ignored everything Labour have said, with the customs union being the obvious one. I'd have thought the pressure would be on the ERG, they are in the party of Government and supposedly support Brexit. I just wonder if there might be some there who blink eventually?
    Of course the pressure will be on the ERG. However, the big picture would be that Labour, the LibDems and the SNP colluded with the headbangers to kill off the deal (which will no doubt look wonderful if we can't have it, human nature being what it is). If the result is chaos, then those who voted for the chaos will own the chaos. This looks incredibly dangerous for Labour, which is why I don't think they'll do it. Of course it's also incredibly dangerous for the country, but that won't be a consideration.
    If Labour do abstain, and I can see your logic, then May basically needs about 2/3 of the Tory party to get a deal through. Really can't see that being a problem in light of the alternative.
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    Anazina said:

    Sean_F said:

    Anazina said:

    tlg86 said:
    I was amazed to read that 47% of Greater London itself is green space (this does not include the vast open spaces like Epping Forest and Windsor Great Park which are mostly just outside the boundary). I knew London was a very green city (and I live a couple of miles from the edge of open countryside) but was surprised to read the ratio was that high.
    About a third of Enfield is open countryside.
    I was over there just the other day garden plant shopping! It has a bizarre gardening enclave around Crews Hill which I am sure you are familiar with (a landscaper friend claims its the biggest gardening retail district in Europe??). As you say, much of the area is open countryside. I saw some grouse and pheasant after the shopping trip as we took a walk out along the lanes.
    Just down the road from me, you should have stopped by for a pint.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    Anazina said:

    Sean_F said:

    Anazina said:

    tlg86 said:
    I was amazed to read that 47% of Greater London itself is green space (this does not include the vast open spaces like Epping Forest and Windsor Great Park which are mostly just outside the boundary). I knew London was a very green city (and I live a couple of miles from the edge of open countryside) but was surprised to read the ratio was that high.
    About a third of Enfield is open countryside.
    I was over there just the other day garden plant shopping! It has a bizarre gardening enclave around Crews Hill which I am sure you are familiar with (a landscaper friend claims its the biggest gardening retail district in Europe??). As you say, much of the area is open countryside. I saw some grouse and pheasant after the shopping trip as we took a walk out along the lanes.
    Almost certainly not grouse! (Partridge?)
  • Options
    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    More lefty wankers doing actions that make them feel all good and fuzzy without caring on the effect it has on others:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-45638416

    Crisp packets are an utter menace. They destroy the beautiful countryside near where I live. Why doesn't Walkers make them biodegradable?
    I thought you said you lived in London ?
    You do realise that London has a countryside edge? Doesn't Bradford?
    Hahaha,The way you talk about London you would think you live in inner london built up areas.
    I grew up in one of the SW London boroughs (Kingston if you want to know). I can assure you that because of the Green Belt it goes straight from very built up to countryside.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131
    Sean_F said:

    tlg86 said:

    Anazina said:

    tlg86 said:

    Anazina said:

    tlg86 said:
    I was amazed to read that 47% of Greater London itself is green space (this does not include the vast open spaces like Epping Forest and Windsor Great Park which are mostly just outside the boundary). I knew London was a very green city (and I live a couple of miles from the edge of open countryside) but was surprised to read the ratio was that high.
    There is a very small proportion of Greater London which is actually classified as rural:

    https://tinyurl.com/ybbe66ut

    @Tykejohnno might be interested to know that Leeds/Bradford is problematic for creating the built-up areas. The algorithms used by Ordnance Survey treat spaces enclosed by built-up areas as part of that built-up area. So Hyde Park gets counted as being in the London built-up area. The bit between Leeds and Bradford is enclosed by the same built-up area which means it too counts as being that built-up area, even though it is a rural area.
    That's a very long research document – which part is rural – I would guess somewhere in the far north east, north of Chingford perhaps, that small part of Epping Forest which is in London or maybe in the far south-east towards Box Hill, Kent borders??
    The latter, I think.
    Botany Bay is separated from both Enfield Town and Potters Bar by farmland, so would probably count as rural.
    And quite a few oceans. Is it not about 10,500 miles away?
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799
    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    tlg86 said:

    Anazina said:

    tlg86 said:

    Anazina said:

    tlg86 said:
    I was amazed to read that 47% of Greater London itself is green space (this does not include the vast open spaces like Epping Forest and Windsor Great Park which are mostly just outside the boundary). I knew London was a very green city (and I live a couple of miles from the edge of open countryside) but was surprised to read the ratio was that high.
    There is a very small proportion of Greater London which is actually classified as rural:

    https://tinyurl.com/ybbe66ut

    @Tykejohnno might be interested to know that Leeds/Bradford is problematic for creating the built-up areas. The algorithms used by Ordnance Survey treat spaces enclosed by built-up areas as part of that built-up area. So Hyde Park gets counted as being in the London built-up area. The bit between Leeds and Bradford is enclosed by the same built-up area which means it too counts as being that built-up area, even though it is a rural area.
    That's a very long research document – which part is rural – I would guess somewhere in the far north east, north of Chingford perhaps, that small part of Epping Forest which is in London or maybe in the far south-east towards Box Hill, Kent borders??
    The latter, I think.
    Botany Bay is separated from both Enfield Town and Potters Bar by farmland, so would probably count as rural.
    And quite a few oceans. Is it not about 10,500 miles away?
    I don't know whether it is named after the Australian bay, or whether the bay is named after the village.
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    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    tlg86 said:

    Anazina said:

    tlg86 said:

    Anazina said:

    tlg86 said:
    I was amazed to read that 47% of Greater London itself is green space (this does not include the vast open spaces like Epping Forest and Windsor Great Park which are mostly just outside the boundary). I knew London was a very green city (and I live a couple of miles from the edge of open countryside) but was surprised to read the ratio was that high.
    There is a very small proportion of Greater London which is actually classified as rural:

    https://tinyurl.com/ybbe66ut

    @Tykejohnno might be interested to know that Leeds/Bradford is problematic for creating the built-up areas. The algorithms used by Ordnance Survey treat spaces enclosed by built-up areas as part of that built-up area. So Hyde Park gets counted as being in the London built-up area. The bit between Leeds and Bradford is enclosed by the same built-up area which means it too counts as being that built-up area, even though it is a rural area.
    That's a very long research document – which part is rural – I would guess somewhere in the far north east, north of Chingford perhaps, that small part of Epping Forest which is in London or maybe in the far south-east towards Box Hill, Kent borders??
    The latter, I think.
    Botany Bay is separated from both Enfield Town and Potters Bar by farmland, so would probably count as rural.
    And quite a few oceans. Is it not about 10,500 miles away?
    I don't know whether it is named after the Australian bay, or whether the bay is named after the village.
    I would have thought Botany Bay along the Enfield Ridgeway had been around for longer than we discovered Australia
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799
    WRT rural London, I think most of the Wrotham Park estate, which is 2,500 acres, falls within the borough of Barnet. It was purchased by Admiral Byng, who was shot, and still owned by his descendants.
  • Options
    My read of the Labour Brexit position:

    1. Many Labour voters are Leave voters. "We will back a Brexit deal" is a clear message.
    2. Most Labour members are Remain voters. "We won't let May crash us out or deliver a right wing wet dream deal" keeps them on board - he has to respect the majority view of the membership
    3. Labour will back a move to ban the government accepting crash Brexit. I expect the meaningful vote that MPs get will do this
    4. Labour will also reject whatever fudged version of Brexit May tries to cobble together - something that pro-Brexit voters also support

    The calculation is that in both Blocking crash Brexit AND blocking a bullshit Brexit we can retain enough credit with both sides whilst bringing the government to a grinding halt. At which point either a fresh election or a referendum become necessary to make progress.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    I think the bigger story here might be - felt by whom???

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-45655149
  • Options

    My read of the Labour Brexit position:

    1. Many Labour voters are Leave voters. "We will back a Brexit deal" is a clear message.
    2. Most Labour members are Remain voters. "We won't let May crash us out or deliver a right wing wet dream deal" keeps them on board - he has to respect the majority view of the membership
    3. Labour will back a move to ban the government accepting crash Brexit. I expect the meaningful vote that MPs get will do this
    4. Labour will also reject whatever fudged version of Brexit May tries to cobble together - something that pro-Brexit voters also support

    The calculation is that in both Blocking crash Brexit AND blocking a bullshit Brexit we can retain enough credit with both sides whilst bringing the government to a grinding halt. At which point either a fresh election or a referendum become necessary to make progress.

    The flaw in that is 3. It's like voting to ban the incoming tide.
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    Sean_F said:

    WRT rural London, I think most of the Wrotham Park estate, which is 2,500 acres, falls within the borough of Barnet. It was purchased by Admiral Byng, who was shot, and still owned by his descendants.

    I think the 'Welcome to Hertfordshire' sign is before Wrotham Park. To be fair, I only drive past it twice a day. I will double check on the way home from work.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    I think the bigger story here might be - felt by whom???

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-45655149

    I knew I felt something when ICM dropped their bombshell poll before the last election.


    .... ah, my coat.
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    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,495
    The discussion about Labour abstaining on critical votes is going to gather steam. JC has always wanted to leave the EU, and could do so without having to take any responsibility for it if it takes care; firstly when there is a binary vote Labour would propose an amendment which it is sure to lose, giving it cover for abstaining on the main vote, eg a vote between a Brexit WA they don't like and a no deal Brexit. As it is the opposition the fact it has no coherent policy does not matter. Sadly the government doesn't either but that's another story.
  • Options
    PeterCPeterC Posts: 1,274
    edited September 2018

    My read of the Labour Brexit position:

    1. Many Labour voters are Leave voters. "We will back a Brexit deal" is a clear message.
    2. Most Labour members are Remain voters. "We won't let May crash us out or deliver a right wing wet dream deal" keeps them on board - he has to respect the majority view of the membership
    3. Labour will back a move to ban the government accepting crash Brexit. I expect the meaningful vote that MPs get will do this
    4. Labour will also reject whatever fudged version of Brexit May tries to cobble together - something that pro-Brexit voters also support

    The calculation is that in both Blocking crash Brexit AND blocking a bullshit Brexit we can retain enough credit with both sides whilst bringing the government to a grinding halt. At which point either a fresh election or a referendum become necessary to make progress.

    Is it really possible to block a crash Brexit? I thought that as A50 is still running it will take us out automatically on 29th March.
  • Options
    AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Anazina said:

    Sean_F said:

    Anazina said:

    tlg86 said:
    I was amazed to read that 47% of Greater London itself is green space (this does not include the vast open spaces like Epping Forest and Windsor Great Park which are mostly just outside the boundary). I knew London was a very green city (and I live a couple of miles from the edge of open countryside) but was surprised to read the ratio was that high.
    About a third of Enfield is open countryside.
    I was over there just the other day garden plant shopping! It has a bizarre gardening enclave around Crews Hill which I am sure you are familiar with (a landscaper friend claims its the biggest gardening retail district in Europe??). As you say, much of the area is open countryside. I saw some grouse and pheasant after the shopping trip as we took a walk out along the lanes.
    Almost certainly not grouse! (Partridge?)
    Maybe, I am no expert as you have already gathered :)

    They were brown and hopped around a lot. The pheasant obviously are distinctive even to a layman.
  • Options
    AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Anazina said:

    Sean_F said:

    Anazina said:

    tlg86 said:
    I was amazed to read that 47% of Greater London itself is green space (this does not include the vast open spaces like Epping Forest and Windsor Great Park which are mostly just outside the boundary). I knew London was a very green city (and I live a couple of miles from the edge of open countryside) but was surprised to read the ratio was that high.
    About a third of Enfield is open countryside.
    I was over there just the other day garden plant shopping! It has a bizarre gardening enclave around Crews Hill which I am sure you are familiar with (a landscaper friend claims its the biggest gardening retail district in Europe??). As you say, much of the area is open countryside. I saw some grouse and pheasant after the shopping trip as we took a walk out along the lanes.
    Just down the road from me, you should have stopped by for a pint.
    We ended up walking to a pub about three miles away called the Goff's Oak. It was surprisingly fancy for a rural area but the beer was good and the food was excellent – a pleasant surprise!
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    My read of the Labour Brexit position:

    1. Many Labour voters are Leave voters. "We will back a Brexit deal" is a clear message.
    2. Most Labour members are Remain voters. "We won't let May crash us out or deliver a right wing wet dream deal" keeps them on board - he has to respect the majority view of the membership
    3. Labour will back a move to ban the government accepting crash Brexit. I expect the meaningful vote that MPs get will do this
    4. Labour will also reject whatever fudged version of Brexit May tries to cobble together - something that pro-Brexit voters also support

    The calculation is that in both Blocking crash Brexit AND blocking a bullshit Brexit we can retain enough credit with both sides whilst bringing the government to a grinding halt. At which point either a fresh election or a referendum become necessary to make progress.

    The flaw in that is 3. It's like voting to ban the incoming tide.
    Did we ever get to the bottom of whether there is still a meaningful vote if there is never any meaningful agreed deal to vote on?
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    AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    rpjs said:

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    More lefty wankers doing actions that make them feel all good and fuzzy without caring on the effect it has on others:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-45638416

    Crisp packets are an utter menace. They destroy the beautiful countryside near where I live. Why doesn't Walkers make them biodegradable?
    I thought you said you lived in London ?
    You do realise that London has a countryside edge? Doesn't Bradford?
    Hahaha,The way you talk about London you would think you live in inner london built up areas.
    I grew up in one of the SW London boroughs (Kingston if you want to know). I can assure you that because of the Green Belt it goes straight from very built up to countryside.
    Indeed. Same around my way.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,531
    PeterC said:

    My read of the Labour Brexit position:

    1. Many Labour voters are Leave voters. "We will back a Brexit deal" is a clear message.
    2. Most Labour members are Remain voters. "We won't let May crash us out or deliver a right wing wet dream deal" keeps them on board - he has to respect the majority view of the membership
    3. Labour will back a move to ban the government accepting crash Brexit. I expect the meaningful vote that MPs get will do this
    4. Labour will also reject whatever fudged version of Brexit May tries to cobble together - something that pro-Brexit voters also support

    The calculation is that in both Blocking crash Brexit AND blocking a bullshit Brexit we can retain enough credit with both sides whilst bringing the government to a grinding halt. At which point either a fresh election or a referendum become necessary to make progress.

    Is it really possible to block a crash Brexit? I thought that as A50 is still running it will take us out automatically on 29th March.
    The way to block Crash Brexit is via A50 extension. That might well bring down the May government, but I suspect that that result wouldn't keep Jezza awake all night.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Sean_F said:

    Anazina said:

    tlg86 said:
    I was amazed to read that 47% of Greater London itself is green space (this does not include the vast open spaces like Epping Forest and Windsor Great Park which are mostly just outside the boundary). I knew London was a very green city (and I live a couple of miles from the edge of open countryside) but was surprised to read the ratio was that high.
    About a third of Enfield is open countryside.
    I was over there just the other day garden plant shopping! It has a bizarre gardening enclave around Crews Hill which I am sure you are familiar with (a landscaper friend claims its the biggest gardening retail district in Europe??). As you say, much of the area is open countryside. I saw some grouse and pheasant after the shopping trip as we took a walk out along the lanes.
    Almost certainly not grouse! (Partridge?)
    Maybe, I am no expert as you have already gathered :)

    They were brown and hopped around a lot. The pheasant obviously are distinctive even to a layman.
    They could perhaps have been female pheasants? They basically wear light brown camo...
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799

    Sean_F said:

    WRT rural London, I think most of the Wrotham Park estate, which is 2,500 acres, falls within the borough of Barnet. It was purchased by Admiral Byng, who was shot, and still owned by his descendants.

    I think the 'Welcome to Hertfordshire' sign is before Wrotham Park. To be fair, I only drive past it twice a day. I will double check on the way home from work.
    On checking, you're correct. It does fall the other side of the boundary. When I was a child, you could have argued that Mill Hill and Arkley were rural, as they still had working farms, but, now they're much more built up, and the farms have gone.
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    PeterC said:

    My read of the Labour Brexit position:

    1. Many Labour voters are Leave voters. "We will back a Brexit deal" is a clear message.
    2. Most Labour members are Remain voters. "We won't let May crash us out or deliver a right wing wet dream deal" keeps them on board - he has to respect the majority view of the membership
    3. Labour will back a move to ban the government accepting crash Brexit. I expect the meaningful vote that MPs get will do this
    4. Labour will also reject whatever fudged version of Brexit May tries to cobble together - something that pro-Brexit voters also support

    The calculation is that in both Blocking crash Brexit AND blocking a bullshit Brexit we can retain enough credit with both sides whilst bringing the government to a grinding halt. At which point either a fresh election or a referendum become necessary to make progress.

    Is it really possible to block a crash Brexit? I thought that as A50 is still running it will take us out automatically on 29th March.
    It forces the government to go back to the negotiating table. I take Richard's point about the tide, but it would at least compel the government to do something more than sit sulkily in London shouting obscenities about foreigners. Which is what the Tory party will do otherwise having utterly screwed this up.

    BTW Labour will not abstain. There would be an uprising against Corbyn and not just from the MPs. Members are very clear in their views on this one...
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    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Sean_F said:

    Anazina said:

    tlg86 said:
    I was amazed to read that 47% of Greater London itself is green space (this does not include the vast open spaces like Epping Forest and Windsor Great Park which are mostly just outside the boundary). I knew London was a very green city (and I live a couple of miles from the edge of open countryside) but was surprised to read the ratio was that high.
    About a third of Enfield is open countryside.
    I was over there just the other day garden plant shopping! It has a bizarre gardening enclave around Crews Hill which I am sure you are familiar with (a landscaper friend claims its the biggest gardening retail district in Europe??). As you say, much of the area is open countryside. I saw some grouse and pheasant after the shopping trip as we took a walk out along the lanes.
    Just down the road from me, you should have stopped by for a pint.
    We ended up walking to a pub about three miles away called the Goff's Oak. It was surprisingly fancy for a rural area but the beer was good and the food was excellent – a pleasant surprise!
    Goffs Oak and Cuffley are pretty wealthy areas. Footballers and Tesco board members abound.
  • Options

    My read of the Labour Brexit position:

    1. Many Labour voters are Leave voters. "We will back a Brexit deal" is a clear message.
    2. Most Labour members are Remain voters. "We won't let May crash us out or deliver a right wing wet dream deal" keeps them on board - he has to respect the majority view of the membership
    3. Labour will back a move to ban the government accepting crash Brexit. I expect the meaningful vote that MPs get will do this
    4. Labour will also reject whatever fudged version of Brexit May tries to cobble together - something that pro-Brexit voters also support

    The calculation is that in both Blocking crash Brexit AND blocking a bullshit Brexit we can retain enough credit with both sides whilst bringing the government to a grinding halt. At which point either a fresh election or a referendum become necessary to make progress.

    The flaw in that is 3. It's like voting to ban the incoming tide.
    Did we ever get to the bottom of whether there is still a meaningful vote if there is never any meaningful agreed deal to vote on?
    Presumably it would be a meaningless meaningful vote confirming we don't want to accept something which hasn't been offered,
  • Options
    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    tlg86 said:

    Anazina said:

    tlg86 said:

    Anazina said:

    tlg86 said:
    I was amazed to read that 47% of Greater London itself is green space (this does not include the vast open spaces like Epping Forest and Windsor Great Park which are mostly just outside the boundary). I knew London was a very green city (and I live a couple of miles from the edge of open countryside) but was surprised to read the ratio was that high.
    There is a very small proportion of Greater London which is actually classified as rural:

    https://tinyurl.com/ybbe66ut

    @Tykejohnno might be interested to know that Leeds/Bradford is problematic for creating the built-up areas. The algorithms used by Ordnance Survey treat spaces enclosed by built-up areas as part of that built-up area. So Hyde Park gets counted as being in the London built-up area. The bit between Leeds and Bradford is enclosed by the same built-up area which means it too counts as being that built-up area, even though it is a rural area.
    That's a very long research document – which part is rural – I would guess somewhere in the far north east, north of Chingford perhaps, that small part of Epping Forest which is in London or maybe in the far south-east towards Box Hill, Kent borders??
    The latter, I think.
    Botany Bay is separated from both Enfield Town and Potters Bar by farmland, so would probably count as rural.
    And quite a few oceans. Is it not about 10,500 miles away?
    I don't know whether it is named after the Australian bay, or whether the bay is named after the village.
    I would have thought Botany Bay along the Enfield Ridgeway had been around for longer than we discovered Australia
    Yes, but places get renamed, e.g. Enham Alamein in Hampshire. The Australian place was so named because Cook's first visit there found lots and lots of previously unknown plant species.
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