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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Both main party leaders have seen their ratings decline since

SystemSystem Posts: 6,666
edited October 4 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Both main party leaders have seen their ratings decline since the last conference season – Corbyn’s more May’s

The end of the Party Conference season is a good time to look back at the past year through the prism of the Ipsos MORI leader satisfaction ratings. This is part of the longest running polling series in the UK and is now in its fifth decade.

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 5,483
    edited October 4
    4,649th
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 18,700
    Must be some post Con conference polls coming this weekend ?
  • Ah yes I remember the bounce Gordon Brown enjoyed when he became PM.

    One of his MPs wrote this magnum opus.

    'Shortly there will be an election, in which Labour will increase its majority'

    https://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/conference/2007/09/labour-majority-increase#amp
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 70,941
    edited October 4
    TGOHF said:

    Must be some post Con conference polls coming this weekend ?

    I’ve partaken in an Opinium poll.

    I’m sure all respondents decided to Lay All Your Love On May.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 18,254

    Ah yes I remember the bounce Gordon Brown enjoyed when he became PM.

    One of his MPs wrote this magnum opus.

    'Shortly there will be an election, in which Labour will increase its majority'

    https://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/conference/2007/09/labour-majority-increase#amp

    hurrah for Andy Street, West Mids dodged a bullet when he became mayor
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 16,067
    FPT
    currystar said:

    Nissan aren't happy. I really think people need to wake up to the damage Brexit is doing and is going to do.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/oct/04/nissan-becomes-latest-manufacturer-to-warn-against-hard-brexit

    5 live business were reporting on the car industry problems this morning. New car sales in UK are down 20% and in Germany 30%. The reasons given were the assault by governments on diesel, the high cost of new cars, the ending of ppi compensation payouts in the UK, the new emission rules slowing the delivery to the customers, high priced electric cars and hybrids, and huge deterioration of value the day you drive out of the garage. Also fears Trump will hit european car makers with tariffs.

    The car industry is in a mess and needs to slow production and slash prices due to the over supply. The opinion was that while brexit is causing uncertainty the car makers have many more fundamental problems with their products

    Funny that UK reporting does not mention the huge drop (30%) in Germany
    I think modern cars are just too good. I know that sounds mad but I have a three year old Fiesta with 35,000 on the clock. It drives like it did the first day I got it. There will be no rust problems and it has just sailed through its first MOT with absolutely nothing to report. I normally replace my car every three years but there really is no point with this one as it remains in perfect condition. Cars are just made too well, there is no need to replace them.
    Not only that but the fast changing technology in the industry now means that resale prices are no longer guaranteed.

    Diesel resale prices are a fraction of what they should have been without the scandal.
    Electric is coming along so fast that petrol and diesel are going to be worth even less.
    Electric is coming along so fast that new electrics are better and cheaper every year so the resale on what you buy now is worth less.

    Unless you need to buy a new car then buying one now is pointless.

    I have an 8 year old car now that came with a 7 year warranty. It runs as well now as it did then and sailed through its last MOT. I'm holding off until either I'm forced to replace it or an electric vehicle matures enough to be both cheap and with a decent range.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 3,127

    Ah yes I remember the bounce Gordon Brown enjoyed when he became PM.

    One of his MPs wrote this magnum opus.

    'Shortly there will be an election, in which Labour will increase its majority'

    https://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/conference/2007/09/labour-majority-increase#amp

    You are just nit picking.

    The statement is still true, just a it was then. The issue is no more than your narrow definition of shortly. In evolutionary terms it will be a mere blink.

    It may be more accurate than JC getting to No 10 by (an undefined) christmas.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 46,447
    Much smaller shift for May than Corbyn, over that entire period.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 5,483


    Not only that but the fast changing technology in the industry now means that resale prices are no longer guaranteed.

    Diesel resale prices are a fraction of what they should have been without the scandal.
    Electric is coming along so fast that petrol and diesel are going to be worth even less.
    Electric is coming along so fast that new electrics are better and cheaper every year so the resale on what you buy now is worth less.

    Unless you need to buy a new car then buying one now is pointless.

    I have an 8 year old car now that came with a 7 year warranty. It runs as well now as it did then and sailed through its last MOT. I'm holding off until either I'm forced to replace it or an electric vehicle matures enough to be both cheap and with a decent range.

    I run my cars until something too expensive to fix goes whirr-clunk then it is off to the scrapper and I buy another secondhand car, usually 5 - 10 years old. My current car is 2004 and I bought it six years ago for £1,300. Each year, it gets serviced and MOT'd at the same time .

    It runs reliably, is cheap to insure and keeps the rain off. That is all I need.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 22,024
    If you were looking at approval ratings alone, you'd send them both to the knackers' yard.
  • archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:



    "We can never leave the CU".

    How do you think they will manage that?

    Turkey isn’t in The Customs Union.
    Yesterday TM delivered the starkest of warnings to the hard brexiteers that no one will get all they wish for and compromise is needed. There was a significant warning to those who pursue a hard brexit that the end result could well be no brexit at all

    In a very well received conference speech she is clearly laying down the marker that there may be an overwhelming parliamentary demand for a second referendum if she fails to get a deal

    I would say that this warning needs to be taken on board by those who seek to put a border in NI and impede just in time manufacturing or we will continue to be a member of the EU with no hope of getting another leave vote in the foreseeable future
    May's 'threat' that there will be no Brexit if we don't do it her way is just an empty threat. She has no way of stopping Brexit that would allow the Tory party to survive.

    She make whatever warnings she wants. She has no credibility. She promised that Chequers was as far as she would go and asked everyone to make compromises on the grounds that would be it. It was a lie. She is now running off offering yet more compromises to the EU. In the meantime, they are just going to publish their paper on the future relationship without actually negotiating it with the UK. It will be take it or leave it.

    The problem is that May has backed down on every threat she ever faced, from anyone. EU, Remainers, Leavers, DUP, she backs down to them all. So Leavers are hardly quaking in their boots right now. She doesn't have the numbers for Chequers-minus but she is stubborn so she might have to find that out the hard way. The very idea that she would hand the EU a permanent veto on the UK leaving the CU is an absolute disgrace and her support will evaporate as soon as this becomes clear.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 4,801


    Not only that but the fast changing technology in the industry now means that resale prices are no longer guaranteed.

    Diesel resale prices are a fraction of what they should have been without the scandal.
    Electric is coming along so fast that petrol and diesel are going to be worth even less.
    Electric is coming along so fast that new electrics are better and cheaper every year so the resale on what you buy now is worth less.

    Unless you need to buy a new car then buying one now is pointless.

    I have an 8 year old car now that came with a 7 year warranty. It runs as well now as it did then and sailed through its last MOT. I'm holding off until either I'm forced to replace it or an electric vehicle matures enough to be both cheap and with a decent range.

    I run my cars until something too expensive to fix goes whirr-clunk then it is off to the scrapper and I buy another secondhand car, usually 5 - 10 years old. My current car is 2004 and I bought it six years ago for £1,300. Each year, it gets serviced and MOT'd at the same time .

    It runs reliably, is cheap to insure and keeps the rain off. That is all I need.
    This from the Speccie's Liz Hardman is a warning about the limitations of electric cars.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6225039/Nissan-Leafs-range-just-160-miles-good-luck-finding-charging-point-works.html

    I'm sticking with my British-made Toyota self-charging hybrid
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 5,483

    If you were looking at approval ratings alone, you'd send them both to the knackers' yard.

    Agreed, but I would go one stage further and send both parties to the knacker's yard.
  • glwglw Posts: 4,586

    Diesel resale prices are a fraction of what they should have been without the scandal.
    Electric is coming along so fast that petrol and diesel are going to be worth even less.
    Electric is coming along so fast that new electrics are better and cheaper every year so the resale on what you buy now is worth less.

    Unless you need to buy a new car then buying one now is pointless.

    I have an 8 year old car now that came with a 7 year warranty. It runs as well now as it did then and sailed through its last MOT. I'm holding off until either I'm forced to replace it or an electric vehicle matures enough to be both cheap and with a decent range.

    ++

    As cars become increasingly gadget filled, move towards self-driving, and become electric powered or hybrids, we are starting to see a pace of development unseen for many decades, and as consequence a more rapid depreciation. If your current car runs well then keep it, the car you will be able to buy in 2020+ will knock spots off the car you could buy today.
  • glwglw Posts: 4,586

    If you were looking at approval ratings alone, you'd send them both to the knackers' yard.

    Maybe, but you'd book Corbyn in first.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 48,285
    edited October 4
    My 09 reg Peugeot decided it wanted to extend it's stay in France recently; it will be repatriated to my local garage (Allianz European breakdown cover) in 12 days time which will give me an honest assessment of what needs doing to get it back up and running again.
    At the moment using my other half's 03 reg Nissan, which is going well still.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 1,804
    edited October 4

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:



    "We can never leave the CU".

    How do you think they will manage that?

    Turkey isn’t in The Customs Union.
    Yesterday TM delivered the starkest of warnings to the hard brexiteers that no one will get all they wish for and compromise is needed. There was a significant warning to those who pursue a hard brexit that the end result could well be no brexit at all

    In a very well received conference speech she is clearly laying down the marker that there may be an overwhelming parliamentary demand for a second referendum if she fails to get a deal

    I would say that this warning needs to be taken on board by those who seek to put a border in NI and impede just in time manufacturing or we will continue to be a member of the EU with no hope of getting another leave vote in the foreseeable future
    May's 'threat' that there will be no Brexit if we don't do it her way is just an empty threat. She has no way of stopping Brexit that would allow the Tory party to survive.

    She make whatever warnings she wants. She has no credibility. She promised that Chequers was as far as she would go and asked everyone to make compromises on the grounds that would be it. It was a lie. She is now running off offering yet more compromises to the EU. In the meantime, they are just going to publish their paper on the future relationship without actually negotiating it with the UK. It will be take it or leave it.

    The problem is that May has backed down on every threat she ever faced, from anyone. EU, Remainers, Leavers, DUP, she backs down to them all. So Leavers are hardly quaking in their boots right now. She doesn't have the numbers for Chequers-minus but she is stubborn so she might have to find that out the hard way. The very idea that she would hand the EU a permanent veto on the UK leaving the CU is an absolute disgrace and her support will evaporate as soon as this becomes clear.
    May seems to be saying "back me or no Brexit" to the ERG and "back me or no deal" to remainers.

    She is trying to face in two diametrically opposed positions at the same time.

    It is hard to see how this can end well.

  • LordOfReasonLordOfReason Posts: 457

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:



    "We can never leave the CU".

    How do you think they will manage that?

    Turkey isn’t in The Customs Union.
    Yesterday TM delivered the starkest of warnings to the hard brexiteers that no one will get all they wish for and compromise is needed. There was a significant warning to those who pursue a hard brexit that the end result could well be no brexit at all

    In a very well received conference speech she is clearly laying down the marker that there may be an overwhelming parliamentary demand for a second referendum if she fails to get a deal

    I would say that this warning needs to be taken on board by those who seek to put a border in NI and impede just in time manufacturing or we will continue to be a member of the EU with no hope of getting another leave vote in the foreseeable future
    May's 'threat' that there will be no Brexit if we don't do it her way is just an empty threat. She has no way of stopping Brexit that would allow the Tory party to survive.

    She make whatever warnings she wants. She has no credibility. She promised that Chequers was as far as she would go and asked everyone to make compromises on the grounds that would be it. It was a lie. She is now running off offering yet more compromises to the EU. In the meantime, they are just going to publish their paper on the future relationship without actually negotiating it with the UK. It will be take it or leave it.

    The problem is that May has backed down on every threat she ever faced, from anyone. EU, Remainers, Leavers, DUP, she backs down to them all. So Leavers are hardly quaking in their boots right now. She doesn't have the numbers for Chequers-minus but she is stubborn so she might have to find that out the hard way. The very idea that she would hand the EU a permanent veto on the UK leaving the CU is an absolute disgrace and her support will evaporate as soon as this becomes clear.
    May seems to be saying "back me or no Brexit" to the ERG and "back me or no deal" to remainers.

    Which nicely encapsulates the absurdity of her position.

    A position fate dealt her, or a place she fashioned herself?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 22,187


    Not only that but the fast changing technology in the industry now means that resale prices are no longer guaranteed.

    Diesel resale prices are a fraction of what they should have been without the scandal.
    Electric is coming along so fast that petrol and diesel are going to be worth even less.
    Electric is coming along so fast that new electrics are better and cheaper every year so the resale on what you buy now is worth less.

    Unless you need to buy a new car then buying one now is pointless.

    I have an 8 year old car now that came with a 7 year warranty. It runs as well now as it did then and sailed through its last MOT. I'm holding off until either I'm forced to replace it or an electric vehicle matures enough to be both cheap and with a decent range.

    I run my cars until something too expensive to fix goes whirr-clunk then it is off to the scrapper and I buy another secondhand car, usually 5 - 10 years old. My current car is 2004 and I bought it six years ago for £1,300. Each year, it gets serviced and MOT'd at the same time .

    It runs reliably, is cheap to insure and keeps the rain off. That is all I need.
    This from the Speccie's Liz Hardman is a warning about the limitations of electric cars.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6225039/Nissan-Leafs-range-just-160-miles-good-luck-finding-charging-point-works.html

    I'm sticking with my British-made Toyota self-charging hybrid
    That story is a classic example of range anxiety.

    A major problem with electric cars is that, in two important ways, they're a *worse* technology: they have less range than IC cars, and 'refuelling' them takes many times longer. These are two factors that matter to many drivers.

    Technology is here to (apparently) make our lives easier; or at least make us think our lives are easier. Current electric cars do not make lives easier; as a one-to-one replacement they make lives more complex. That will be a big barrier to mass-market uptake, and that's without mentioning their cost.
  • LordOfReasonLordOfReason Posts: 457

    If you were looking at approval ratings alone, you'd send them both to the knackers' yard.

    Might soon happen. :).
  • archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:



    "We can never leave the CU".

    How do you think they will manage that?

    Turkey isn’t in The Customs Union.
    Yesterday TM delivered the starkest of warnings to the hard brexiteers that no one will get all they wish for and compromise is needed. There was a significant warning to those who pursue a hard brexit that the end result could well be no brexit at all

    In a very well received conference speech she is clearly laying down the marker that there may be an overwhelming parliamentary demand for a second referendum if she fails to get a deal

    I would say that this warning needs to be taken on board by those who seek to put a border in NI and impede just in time manufacturing or we will continue to be a member of the EU with no hope of getting another leave vote in the foreseeable future
    May's 'threat' that there will be no Brexit if we don't do it her way is just an empty threat. She has no way of stopping Brexit that would allow the Tory party to survive.

    She make whatever warnings she wants. She has no credibility. She promised that Chequers was as far as she would go and asked everyone to make compromises on the grounds that would be it. It was a lie. She is now running off offering yet more compromises to the EU. In the meantime, they are just going to publish their paper on the future relationship without actually negotiating it with the UK. It will be take it or leave it.

    The problem is that May has backed down on every threat she ever faced, from anyone. EU, Remainers, Leavers, DUP, she backs down to them all. So Leavers are hardly quaking in their boots right now. She doesn't have the numbers for Chequers-minus but she is stubborn so she might have to find that out the hard way. The very idea that she would hand the EU a permanent veto on the UK leaving the CU is an absolute disgrace and her support will evaporate as soon as this becomes clear.
    May seems to be saying "back me or no Brexit" to the ERG and "back me or no deal" to remainers.

    She is trying to face in two diametrically opposed positions at the same time.

    It is hard to see how this can end well.

    Well that is what happens when you have two faces.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 46,447
    edited October 4
    Mr. Jessop, technology can move backwards, as well as forwards. 14th century longbowmen would massacre 18th/19th century musketeers (the musket, though, is a lot easier to learn and use). Likewise, Concorde still hasn't bee replaced.

    I agree with you on electric cars. It's all very well saying how green it is, but if you can't get where you want to go, or if it adds considerably to journey time, it's an inferior form of transport.

    Edited extra bit: and, of course, concrete was used to construct the Colosseum in the 1st century AD, but after the Empire fell the secret to the substance was lost for centuries.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 5,483


    Not only that but the fast changing technology in the industry now means that resale prices are no longer guaranteed.

    Diesel resale prices are a fraction of what they should have been without the scandal.
    Electric is coming along so fast that petrol and diesel are going to be worth even less.
    Electric is coming along so fast that new electrics are better and cheaper every year so the resale on what you buy now is worth less.

    Unless you need to buy a new car then buying one now is pointless.

    I have an 8 year old car now that came with a 7 year warranty. It runs as well now as it did then and sailed through its last MOT. I'm holding off until either I'm forced to replace it or an electric vehicle matures enough to be both cheap and with a decent range.

    I run my cars until something too expensive to fix goes whirr-clunk then it is off to the scrapper and I buy another secondhand car, usually 5 - 10 years old. My current car is 2004 and I bought it six years ago for £1,300. Each year, it gets serviced and MOT'd at the same time .

    It runs reliably, is cheap to insure and keeps the rain off. That is all I need.
    This from the Speccie's Liz Hardman is a warning about the limitations of electric cars.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6225039/Nissan-Leafs-range-just-160-miles-good-luck-finding-charging-point-works.html

    I'm sticking with my British-made Toyota self-charging hybrid
    A wise decision Mike :+1:
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 5,931


    Not only that but the fast changing technology in the industry now means that resale prices are no longer guaranteed.

    Diesel resale prices are a fraction of what they should have been without the scandal.
    Electric is coming along so fast that petrol and diesel are going to be worth even less.
    Electric is coming along so fast that new electrics are better and cheaper every year so the resale on what you buy now is worth less.

    Unless you need to buy a new car then buying one now is pointless.

    I have an 8 year old car now that came with a 7 year warranty. It runs as well now as it did then and sailed through its last MOT. I'm holding off until either I'm forced to replace it or an electric vehicle matures enough to be both cheap and with a decent range.

    I run my cars until something too expensive to fix goes whirr-clunk then it is off to the scrapper and I buy another secondhand car, usually 5 - 10 years old. My current car is 2004 and I bought it six years ago for £1,300. Each year, it gets serviced and MOT'd at the same time .

    It runs reliably, is cheap to insure and keeps the rain off. That is all I need.
    This from the Speccie's Liz Hardman is a warning about the limitations of electric cars.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6225039/Nissan-Leafs-range-just-160-miles-good-luck-finding-charging-point-works.html

    I'm sticking with my British-made Toyota self-charging hybrid
    That story is a classic example of range anxiety.

    A major problem with electric cars is that, in two important ways, they're a *worse* technology: they have less range than IC cars, and 'refuelling' them takes many times longer. These are two factors that matter to many drivers.

    Technology is here to (apparently) make our lives easier; or at least make us think our lives are easier. Current electric cars do not make lives easier; as a one-to-one replacement they make lives more complex. That will be a big barrier to mass-market uptake, and that's without mentioning their cost.
    IC vs horsedrawn had the same drawbacks but more so initially, viz. that there were only about 3 chemists shops in the entire country selling petrol, and that you got a puncture every 5 miles from lost horseshoe nails.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 22,187
    Ishmael_Z said:


    Not only that but the fast changing technology in the industry now means that resale prices are no longer guaranteed.

    Diesel resale prices are a fraction of what they should have been without the scandal.
    Electric is coming along so fast that petrol and diesel are going to be worth even less.
    Electric is coming along so fast that new electrics are better and cheaper every year so the resale on what you buy now is worth less.

    Unless you need to buy a new car then buying one now is pointless.

    I have an 8 year old car now that came with a 7 year warranty. It runs as well now as it did then and sailed through its last MOT. I'm holding off until either I'm forced to replace it or an electric vehicle matures enough to be both cheap and with a decent range.

    I run my cars until something too expensive to fix goes whirr-clunk then it is off to the scrapper and I buy another secondhand car, usually 5 - 10 years old. My current car is 2004 and I bought it six years ago for £1,300. Each year, it gets serviced and MOT'd at the same time .

    It runs reliably, is cheap to insure and keeps the rain off. That is all I need.
    This from the Speccie's Liz Hardman is a warning about the limitations of electric cars.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6225039/Nissan-Leafs-range-just-160-miles-good-luck-finding-charging-point-works.html

    I'm sticking with my British-made Toyota self-charging hybrid
    That story is a classic example of range anxiety.

    A major problem with electric cars is that, in two important ways, they're a *worse* technology: they have less range than IC cars, and 'refuelling' them takes many times longer. These are two factors that matter to many drivers.

    Technology is here to (apparently) make our lives easier; or at least make us think our lives are easier. Current electric cars do not make lives easier; as a one-to-one replacement they make lives more complex. That will be a big barrier to mass-market uptake, and that's without mentioning their cost.
    IC vs horsedrawn had the same drawbacks but more so initially, viz. that there were only about 3 chemists shops in the entire country selling petrol, and that you got a puncture every 5 miles from lost horseshoe nails.
    Indeed, and at those times cars were very much a posh, rich man's game - it took a few years for cars to become mass-produced and not coachbuilt, and affordable to the 'average' person. You can argue electric cars are in the same positions now.
  • archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612
    Let me make a predicition / comment. If May agrees an all UK backstop with the EU that is time limited (to a reasonable degree), or can be ended by the UK unilaterally, then that would be an acceptable outcome. I think the ERG might even support the withdrawal agreement on the basis they can ditch her and fix the trading relationship later. Remember this is what she promised her MPs in July.

    If May (as it appears she is doing) agrees a permanent backstop that cannot ended without the consent of the EU, she will trigger a leadership challenge and will lose. The idea that you can commit the UK to the control of a foreign power with no way out is unthinkable. She will play right into the ERGs hands - this is an easy thing to explain to the public and she will have no support when it is realised what she has done.

    It may be a small difference, but it is crucial.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 5,483

    I agree with you on electric cars. It's all very well saying how green it is, ....

    Are they green, or do they just move the pollution to the power station?

    Anyway, with that thought, I shall leave you all to it as people are demanding I do stuff...
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 5,782


    Not only that but the fast changing technology in the industry now means that resale prices are no longer guaranteed.

    Diesel resale prices are a fraction of what they should have been without the scandal.
    Electric is coming along so fast that petrol and diesel are going to be worth even less.
    Electric is coming along so fast that new electrics are better and cheaper every year so the resale on what you buy now is worth less.

    Unless you need to buy a new car then buying one now is pointless.

    I have an 8 year old car now that came with a 7 year warranty. It runs as well now as it did then and sailed through its last MOT. I'm holding off until either I'm forced to replace it or an electric vehicle matures enough to be both cheap and with a decent range.

    I run my cars until something too expensive to fix goes whirr-clunk then it is off to the scrapper and I buy another secondhand car, usually 5 - 10 years old. My current car is 2004 and I bought it six years ago for £1,300. Each year, it gets serviced and MOT'd at the same time .

    It runs reliably, is cheap to insure and keeps the rain off. That is all I need.
    This from the Speccie's Liz Hardman is a warning about the limitations of electric cars.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6225039/Nissan-Leafs-range-just-160-miles-good-luck-finding-charging-point-works.html

    I'm sticking with my British-made Toyota self-charging hybrid
    That story is a classic example of range anxiety.

    A major problem with electric cars is that, in two important ways, they're a *worse* technology: they have less range than IC cars, and 'refuelling' them takes many times longer. These are two factors that matter to many drivers.

    Technology is here to (apparently) make our lives easier; or at least make us think our lives are easier. Current electric cars do not make lives easier; as a one-to-one replacement they make lives more complex. That will be a big barrier to mass-market uptake, and that's without mentioning their cost.
    This is one reason why freezing fuel duty, again, is a mistake.

    Higher tax on road fuel would make electric cars better in comparison, as cheaper than internal combustion. Greater sales would enclave a more rapid pace of development to improve the technology, because you would have proof that the market was there.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 8,626
    Ishmael_Z said:


    Not only that but the fast changing technology in the industry now means that resale prices are no longer guaranteed.

    Diesel resale prices are a fraction of what they should have been without the scandal.
    Electric is coming along so fast that petrol and diesel are going to be worth even less.
    Electric is coming along so fast that new electrics are better and cheaper every year so the resale on what you buy now is worth less.

    Unless you need to buy a new car then buying one now is pointless.

    I have an 8 year old car now that came with a 7 year warranty. It runs as well now as it did then and sailed through its last MOT. I'm holding off until either I'm forced to replace it or an electric vehicle matures enough to be both cheap and with a decent range.

    I run my cars until something too expensive to fix goes whirr-clunk then it is off to the scrapper and I buy another secondhand car, usually 5 - 10 years old. My current car is 2004 and I bought it six years ago for £1,300. Each year, it gets serviced and MOT'd at the same time .

    It runs reliably, is cheap to insure and keeps the rain off. That is all I need.
    This from the Speccie's Liz Hardman is a warning about the limitations of electric cars.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6225039/Nissan-Leafs-range-just-160-miles-good-luck-finding-charging-point-works.html

    I'm sticking with my British-made Toyota self-charging hybrid
    That story is a classic example of range anxiety.

    A major problem with electric cars is that, in two important ways, they're a *worse* technology: they have less range than IC cars, and 'refuelling' them takes many times longer. These are two factors that matter to many drivers.

    Technology is here to (apparently) make our lives easier; or at least make us think our lives are easier. Current electric cars do not make lives easier; as a one-to-one replacement they make lives more complex. That will be a big barrier to mass-market uptake, and that's without mentioning their cost.
    IC vs horsedrawn had the same drawbacks but more so initially, viz. that there were only about 3 chemists shops in the entire country selling petrol, and that you got a puncture every 5 miles from lost horseshoe nails.
    Right, there are valid concerns about the current state of the electric car market, not its future. I wouldn't put all my money on electric, but it's time to start betting against petrol.

    As Ford (didn't) say "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses"
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 2,479



    A major problem with electric cars is that, in two important ways, they're a *worse* technology: they have less range than IC cars, and 'refuelling' them takes many times longer. These are two factors that matter to many drivers.

    With an EV you can refuel at home, that's a significant advantage over IC.

    I go everywhere by bike as my three cars (E36 M3 Touring and 2 x 911) are more or less permanently in bits.
  • LordOfReasonLordOfReason Posts: 457
    Would it have been a more interesting graphic, with more interesting point to discuss, if there was another year on the front of it? This specifically doctored one gives the impression of terminally declining, but add six months on the front I imagine Corbyn is nowhere near as high as where this graphic begins.
    Don’t change it though, it may completely undermine the point you are making, and give hope to the Corbynistas!
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 11,538
    I see that Ms Abbott has responded rather ungraciously to Mrs May’s condemnation of those who attack her.

    Disappointing though not, perhaps, entirely unexpected.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 2,747

    Let me make a predicition / comment. If May agrees an all UK backstop with the EU that is time limited (to a reasonable degree), or can be ended by the UK unilaterally, then that would be an acceptable outcome. I think the ERG might even support the withdrawal agreement on the basis they can ditch her and fix the trading relationship later. Remember this is what she promised her MPs in July.

    If May (as it appears she is doing) agrees a permanent backstop that cannot ended without the consent of the EU, she will trigger a leadership challenge and will lose. The idea that you can commit the UK to the control of a foreign power with no way out is unthinkable. She will play right into the ERGs hands - this is an easy thing to explain to the public and she will have no support when it is realised what she has done.

    It may be a small difference, but it is crucial.

    Surely even an indefinite backstop could be unwound be Parliament amending or repealing the relevant legislation? Breaking treaty obligations would obviously have a diplomatic cost, but legally it would be straightforward.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 22,024
    NB It's worth noting that Jeremy Corbyn can be laid for large stakes on Betfair right now at 6.4. This bet can win one of three ways:

    1) Theresa May is replaced by a Conservative before the next election.
    2) Jeremy Corbyn is replaced before the next election.
    3) Jeremy Corbyn loses the next election and is either replaced or Theresa May is subsequently replaced by a Conservative.

    Place your own odds on each of these but for myself I make the respective odds of these roughly 75%, 30% and (if it gets that far) 50%. Allowing for the fact that 1 and 2 can both happen, I make it roughly a one in 11 chance that Jeremy Corbyn gets the gig.

    Feel free to disagree with these percentage estimates and make your own calculations, but (subject to questions of the time value of money) a lay seems marked to me.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 22,187
    Dura_Ace said:



    A major problem with electric cars is that, in two important ways, they're a *worse* technology: they have less range than IC cars, and 'refuelling' them takes many times longer. These are two factors that matter to many drivers.

    With an EV you can refuel at home, that's a significant advantage over IC.

    I go everywhere by bike as my three cars (E36 M3 Touring and 2 x 911) are more or less permanently in bits.
    Again, this shows the current electric-car demographic: many people will *not* be able to charge at home because (for instance) they have on-street parking or live in a tower block.

    I think you need to get better cars. Might I suggest a Honda Jazz? As reliable as f***k. ;)
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 5,782

    I agree with you on electric cars. It's all very well saying how green it is, ....

    Are they green, or do they just move the pollution to the power station?

    Anyway, with that thought, I shall leave you all to it as people are demanding I do stuff...
    Hopefully soon we won't be burning fossil fuels to generate electricity and certainly we burn less than in the past.

    Even if we generated all our electricity with fossil fuels you could still make a case for electric cars on the basis that the pollution from cars is often released directly into city centres. I'm not sure if power stations are more efficient than internal combustion engines once you factor in transmission losses, but that is also a possibility.
  • LordOfReasonLordOfReason Posts: 457
    “If you are in 'a' customs union, you do not have control over your trade policy. End of story.”

    All remainers need to respect that statement is true. Leavers are spot on with that claim. Apart from the bit where it’s a joint effort and we do have some input.

    What leavers haven't made clear though, where Britain has jointly negotiated and agreed trade deals with EU partners, what exactly is so badly wrong with those trade deals we have ended up with? Jointly negotiating we have ended up in trade deals, leavers determined to rip them all up, what specifically is wrong with them? Where exactly are current trade deals holding us back from even better ones? Is it just the principle is wrong, not necessarily all the resulting deals we currently enjoy?

    When it comes to the second ref, there will be much more spotlight on leave to answer this.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 10,040
    edited October 4
    OT...ish.

    As I wondered around Nice airport yesterday there was a flight from Rome and another from Liverpool. The difference in size would have to be measured in percentages of tons. I fear that in three or four years time when we assume full European Pariah status they will put a surcharge on us for weight followed by a further one for lack of dress sense
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 1,804



    A position fate dealt her, or a place she fashioned herself?

    She fashioned it herself - she could have tried to find a national consensus on how to proceed with Brexit but instead she pandered to the ERG and implicitly told remainers "citizens of nowhere" to get stuffed. The Lancaster House speech set out unachievable red lines and those who tried to tell her that she was riding for a fall were sacked. She triggered article 50 without any idea of what to do next - she seems to have believed that the EU would simply cave in to the UKs "cherry picking" demands. And she has mishandled personal relationships with the leaders of the 27, as was made abundantly clear at Salzburg.

    May deserves no sympathy - her premiership has been one of the biggest clusterf*cks in British history.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 19,460

    Let me make a predicition / comment. If May agrees an all UK backstop with the EU that is time limited (to a reasonable degree), or can be ended by the UK unilaterally, then that would be an acceptable outcome. I think the ERG might even support the withdrawal agreement on the basis they can ditch her and fix the trading relationship later. Remember this is what she promised her MPs in July.

    If May (as it appears she is doing) agrees a permanent backstop that cannot ended without the consent of the EU, she will trigger a leadership challenge and will lose. The idea that you can commit the UK to the control of a foreign power with no way out is unthinkable. She will play right into the ERGs hands - this is an easy thing to explain to the public and she will have no support when it is realised what she has done.

    It may be a small difference, but it is crucial.

    I assume you think TM has not thought through these ideas.

    I do understand your desire to break free completely but it is not going to happen.

    I have no idea where this debacle ends but I do know TM will protect the integrity of the Union and just in time manufacturing and if ERG take her deal down do not be surprised if the end result is we do not leave at all

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 22,187

    I agree with you on electric cars. It's all very well saying how green it is, ....

    Are they green, or do they just move the pollution to the power station?

    Anyway, with that thought, I shall leave you all to it as people are demanding I do stuff...
    Hopefully soon we won't be burning fossil fuels to generate electricity and certainly we burn less than in the past.

    Even if we generated all our electricity with fossil fuels you could still make a case for electric cars on the basis that the pollution from cars is often released directly into city centres. I'm not sure if power stations are more efficient than internal combustion engines once you factor in transmission losses, but that is also a possibility.
    Central power stations can also do stuff like flue gas desulphurisation.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 23,228
    I treated myself to a Jaguar when my Audi somewhat surprisingly went up in smoke. I am pretty happy with it and will probably drive it into the deck given the resale values for diesels.

    The Audi I had before the bonfire ran over 140k miles and, if anything, the engine was running better than when I bought it. Everything else was wearing out though and it just wasn't sensible to spend so much money on an old car with minimal resale value.

    There will no doubt be some proper road warriors on here but I average about 25k miles a year which is a lot of time to spend in a car. For me it just doesn't have to be reliable, it has to be safe in the event that I am involved in an accident, comfortable (especially for my lower back which gives me gip from time to time), have a decent sound system and access to the radio stations I like. One demerit of the Jag is that the radio doesn't do longwave. The cricket is now on R5Live extra but I miss out on Yesterday in Parliament in the morning which I used to enjoy.

    I broadly agree with those who say that new cars are simply too good to replace after 3 years. They still feel new at that stage.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 2,747
    DavidL said:

    I treated myself to a Jaguar when my Audi somewhat surprisingly went up in smoke. I am pretty happy with it and will probably drive it into the deck given the resale values for diesels.

    The Audi I had before the bonfire ran over 140k miles and, if anything, the engine was running better than when I bought it. Everything else was wearing out though and it just wasn't sensible to spend so much money on an old car with minimal resale value.

    There will no doubt be some proper road warriors on here but I average about 25k miles a year which is a lot of time to spend in a car. For me it just doesn't have to be reliable, it has to be safe in the event that I am involved in an accident, comfortable (especially for my lower back which gives me gip from time to time), have a decent sound system and access to the radio stations I like. One demerit of the Jag is that the radio doesn't do longwave. The cricket is now on R5Live extra but I miss out on Yesterday in Parliament in the morning which I used to enjoy.

    I broadly agree with those who say that new cars are simply too good to replace after 3 years. They still feel new at that stage.

    I think 25k miles per year makes you a road warrior! IIRC the average is around 10k.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 22,024
    This talk about cars is stressful. I've promised my other half that we'll buy a car this month. I'm still struggling to decide what I might buy, and the more guidance I get the more confused I get.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 15,583
    edited October 4
    Dura_Ace said:



    A major problem with electric cars is that, in two important ways, they're a *worse* technology: they have less range than IC cars, and 'refuelling' them takes many times longer. These are two factors that matter to many drivers.

    With an EV you can refuel at home, that's a significant advantage over IC.

    I go everywhere by bike as my three cars (E36 M3 Touring and 2 x 911) are more or less permanently in bits.
    Do you feel the need, the need for...
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 19,460
    Cyclefree said:

    I see that Ms Abbott has responded rather ungraciously to Mrs May’s condemnation of those who attack her.

    Disappointing though not, perhaps, entirely unexpected.

    I think it says more about Abbott than May.

    Labour have become a party of constant moaning, running the country down, suggesting everyone is on zero hours contracts and we are all eating in food banks, and so it goes on

    The leaders are the misery party and are not fit to govern
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 20,028


    Not only that but the fast changing technology in the industry now means that resale prices are no longer guaranteed.

    Diesel resale prices are a fraction of what they should have been without the scandal.
    Electric is coming along so fast that petrol and diesel are going to be worth even less.
    Electric is coming along so fast that new electrics are better and cheaper every year so the resale on what you buy now is worth less.

    Unless you need to buy a new car then buying one now is pointless.

    I have an 8 year old car now that came with a 7 year warranty. It runs as well now as it did then and sailed through its last MOT. I'm holding off until either I'm forced to replace it or an electric vehicle matures enough to be both cheap and with a decent range.

    I run my cars until something too expensive to fix goes whirr-clunk then it is off to the scrapper and I buy another secondhand car, usually 5 - 10 years old. My current car is 2004 and I bought it six years ago for £1,300. Each year, it gets serviced and MOT'd at the same time .

    It runs reliably, is cheap to insure and keeps the rain off. That is all I need.
    This from the Speccie's Liz Hardman is a warning about the limitations of electric cars.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6225039/Nissan-Leafs-range-just-160-miles-good-luck-finding-charging-point-works.html

    I'm sticking with my British-made Toyota self-charging hybrid
    That story is a classic example of range anxiety.

    A major problem with electric cars is that, in two important ways, they're a *worse* technology: they have less range than IC cars, and 'refuelling' them takes many times longer. These are two factors that matter to many drivers.

    Technology is here to (apparently) make our lives easier; or at least make us think our lives are easier. Current electric cars do not make lives easier; as a one-to-one replacement they make lives more complex. That will be a big barrier to mass-market uptake, and that's without mentioning their cost.
    The problem is that you need to have quite specific driving patterns to make electric cars work, as well as access to off-street parking for charging. If your only car is a Leaf then you’ll want to rent something more conventional for a road trip. The long-range Teslas work, they’ll go London to Glasgow with one 30-minute stop - but cost the best part of £100k.
  • archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612
    RoyalBlue said:

    Let me make a predicition / comment. If May agrees an all UK backstop with the EU that is time limited (to a reasonable degree), or can be ended by the UK unilaterally, then that would be an acceptable outcome. I think the ERG might even support the withdrawal agreement on the basis they can ditch her and fix the trading relationship later. Remember this is what she promised her MPs in July.

    If May (as it appears she is doing) agrees a permanent backstop that cannot ended without the consent of the EU, she will trigger a leadership challenge and will lose. The idea that you can commit the UK to the control of a foreign power with no way out is unthinkable. She will play right into the ERGs hands - this is an easy thing to explain to the public and she will have no support when it is realised what she has done.

    It may be a small difference, but it is crucial.

    Surely even an indefinite backstop could be unwound be Parliament amending or repealing the relevant legislation? Breaking treaty obligations would obviously have a diplomatic cost, but legally it would be straightforward.
    It is a tricky one. The UK is party to the Vienna Convention which says that you cannot unilaterally end a treaty if the treaty does not provide for it. In theory Parliament is sovereign but it might have to withdraw from the Vienna convention first. Otherwise the UKSC could easily rule that Parliament cannot break the treaty.

    In any event it is just an unacceptable thing to do.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 22,024
    Meanwhile, the Northern Irish gay cakes decision is to be delivered by the Supreme Court next Wednesday. After that it should be acte éclair.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 23,228

    Meanwhile, the Northern Irish gay cakes decision is to be delivered by the Supreme Court next Wednesday. After that it should be acte éclair.

    Oh very good.
  • archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612

    Let me make a predicition / comment. If May agrees an all UK backstop with the EU that is time limited (to a reasonable degree), or can be ended by the UK unilaterally, then that would be an acceptable outcome. I think the ERG might even support the withdrawal agreement on the basis they can ditch her and fix the trading relationship later. Remember this is what she promised her MPs in July.

    If May (as it appears she is doing) agrees a permanent backstop that cannot ended without the consent of the EU, she will trigger a leadership challenge and will lose. The idea that you can commit the UK to the control of a foreign power with no way out is unthinkable. She will play right into the ERGs hands - this is an easy thing to explain to the public and she will have no support when it is realised what she has done.

    It may be a small difference, but it is crucial.

    I assume you think TM has not thought through these ideas.

    I do understand your desire to break free completely but it is not going to happen.

    I have no idea where this debacle ends but I do know TM will protect the integrity of the Union and just in time manufacturing and if ERG take her deal down do not be surprised if the end result is we do not leave at all

    Nothing would surprise me. But it won’t just be the ERG that take down that deal. Many Tory MP’s will refuse to bind the nation in this manner. It really would be a constitutional crisis as the ability of Parliament to revoke laws is sacrosanct. And no, I am not convinced May understands. She will choose to believe that it will never happen because she will get Chequers over the line in the transition period. Which clearly won’t happen.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 23,228
    RoyalBlue said:

    DavidL said:

    I treated myself to a Jaguar when my Audi somewhat surprisingly went up in smoke. I am pretty happy with it and will probably drive it into the deck given the resale values for diesels.

    The Audi I had before the bonfire ran over 140k miles and, if anything, the engine was running better than when I bought it. Everything else was wearing out though and it just wasn't sensible to spend so much money on an old car with minimal resale value.

    There will no doubt be some proper road warriors on here but I average about 25k miles a year which is a lot of time to spend in a car. For me it just doesn't have to be reliable, it has to be safe in the event that I am involved in an accident, comfortable (especially for my lower back which gives me gip from time to time), have a decent sound system and access to the radio stations I like. One demerit of the Jag is that the radio doesn't do longwave. The cricket is now on R5Live extra but I miss out on Yesterday in Parliament in the morning which I used to enjoy.

    I broadly agree with those who say that new cars are simply too good to replace after 3 years. They still feel new at that stage.

    I think 25k miles per year makes you a road warrior! IIRC the average is around 10k.
    Ah but this is PB. There are always people who do more, know more, have better experience etc.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 2,747

    Meanwhile, the Northern Irish gay cakes decision is to be delivered by the Supreme Court next Wednesday. After that it should be acte éclair.

    *applause*
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 19,460

    This talk about cars is stressful. I've promised my other half that we'll buy a car this month. I'm still struggling to decide what I might buy, and the more guidance I get the more confused I get.

    And that is why car sales are plummeting.

    It is so much more complicated today than ever before. I heard someone on the radio say they ran over their charging lead and it cost £800 for a new one. I have no idea how true that is but it is a lot of money just to be able to charge your car
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 12,428



    I have no idea where this debacle ends

    It ends with Jezza becoming PM and the Tories out of power for 20-30 years (and probably splitting)

    After Theresa May's betryal of the Leave voters she conned into voting for her in 2017 all I can say the sooner the better!

    #ToriesOut
  • DavidL said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    DavidL said:

    I treated myself to a Jaguar when my Audi somewhat surprisingly went up in smoke. I am pretty happy with it and will probably drive it into the deck given the resale values for diesels.

    The Audi I had before the bonfire ran over 140k miles and, if anything, the engine was running better than when I bought it. Everything else was wearing out though and it just wasn't sensible to spend so much money on an old car with minimal resale value.

    There will no doubt be some proper road warriors on here but I average about 25k miles a year which is a lot of time to spend in a car. For me it just doesn't have to be reliable, it has to be safe in the event that I am involved in an accident, comfortable (especially for my lower back which gives me gip from time to time), have a decent sound system and access to the radio stations I like. One demerit of the Jag is that the radio doesn't do longwave. The cricket is now on R5Live extra but I miss out on Yesterday in Parliament in the morning which I used to enjoy.

    I broadly agree with those who say that new cars are simply too good to replace after 3 years. They still feel new at that stage.

    I think 25k miles per year makes you a road warrior! IIRC the average is around 10k.
    Ah but this is PB. There are always people who do more, know more, have better experience etc.
    My record is 42,000 per year.

    The joys of working in Leeds, living near Richmond, having a girlfriend who couldn’t drive living in Wirral, and parents in Sheffield.
  • Meanwhile, the Northern Irish gay cakes decision is to be delivered by the Supreme Court next Wednesday. After that it should be acte éclair.

    Sir your coat.
  • LordOfReasonLordOfReason Posts: 457

    Cyclefree said:

    I see that Ms Abbott has responded rather ungraciously to Mrs May’s condemnation of those who attack her.

    Disappointing though not, perhaps, entirely unexpected.

    I think it says more about Abbott than May.

    Labour have become a party of constant moaning, running the country down, suggesting everyone is on zero hours contracts and we are all eating in food banks, and so it goes on

    The leaders are the misery party and are not fit to govern
    There’s no place for moaners and people who take things far too seriously in government, leave government to the dancers and irrepressible optimists. Absolutely.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 27,641
    Roger said:

    OT...ish.

    As I wondered around Nice airport yesterday there was a flight from Rome and another from Liverpool. The difference in size would have to be measured in percentages of tons. I fear that in three or four years time when we assume full European Pariah status they will put a surcharge on us for weight followed by a further one for lack of dress sense

    A lot of this is explained by the fact that far fewer Italians travel abroad and those that do tend to be younger or of relatively high social status. If you restricted opportunities for Brits to travel abroad to those two groups, you’d find they look a lot more like the Italians you saw yesterday.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 48,285
    edited October 4
    Given the damp squib of a Tory conference I think the 9.4 to lay for May to remain in post till the end of the year was very generous.

    Cash still available at 9.6, 9.8, 10.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.125589838?loginStatus=SUCCESS&ott=yg2H/NJDHn+3MRSysSYaA3wxoVOYmbZ385quwRGZVT62D6ggn6zb7YaCuT+7AqDT
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 46,447
    Mrs C, that's a legitimate point to raise, as is the consideration of manufacture. If a car runs greenly per mile, but causes huge woe to be emitted in manufacture, does it get a pass?
  • Dutch military intelligence disrupted a Russian cyber-attack on the Organisation for the Prevention of Chemical Weapons, the country’s defence minister has said.

    The attack is believed is to have been conducted by Russian military intelligence, the GRU, which has also been blamed by the British government for the attack on Sergei and Yulia Skripal in Salisbury in March.

    A Dutch official said four intelligence officials had been expelled from the Netherlands after being caught spying on the chemical weapons body in April.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/04/netherlands-halted-russian-cyber-attack-on-chemical-weapons-body?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 23,228

    DavidL said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    DavidL said:

    I treated myself to a Jaguar when my Audi somewhat surprisingly went up in smoke. I am pretty happy with it and will probably drive it into the deck given the resale values for diesels.

    The Audi I had before the bonfire ran over 140k miles and, if anything, the engine was running better than when I bought it. Everything else was wearing out though and it just wasn't sensible to spend so much money on an old car with minimal resale value.

    There will no doubt be some proper road warriors on here but I average about 25k miles a year which is a lot of time to spend in a car. For me it just doesn't have to be reliable, it has to be safe in the event that I am involved in an accident, comfortable (especially for my lower back which gives me gip from time to time), have a decent sound system and access to the radio stations I like. One demerit of the Jag is that the radio doesn't do longwave. The cricket is now on R5Live extra but I miss out on Yesterday in Parliament in the morning which I used to enjoy.

    I broadly agree with those who say that new cars are simply too good to replace after 3 years. They still feel new at that stage.

    I think 25k miles per year makes you a road warrior! IIRC the average is around 10k.
    Ah but this is PB. There are always people who do more, know more, have better experience etc.
    My record is 42,000 per year.

    The joys of working in Leeds, living near Richmond, having a girlfriend who couldn’t drive living in Wirral, and parents in Sheffield.
    See?

    But I trust you agree that when you are spending that % of your life behind the wheel there is more to a car than being reliable and keeping the rain off.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 18,254

    DavidL said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    DavidL said:

    I treated myself to a Jaguar when my Audi somewhat surprisingly went up in smoke. I am pretty happy with it and will probably drive it into the deck given the resale values for diesels.

    The Audi I had before the bonfire ran over 140k miles and, if anything, the engine was running better than when I bought it. Everything else was wearing out though and it just wasn't sensible to spend so much money on an old car with minimal resale value.

    There will no doubt be some proper road warriors on here but I average about 25k miles a year which is a lot of time to spend in a car. For me it just doesn't have to be reliable, it has to be safe in the event that I am involved in an accident, comfortable (especially for my lower back which gives me gip from time to time), have a decent sound system and access to the radio stations I like. One demerit of the Jag is that the radio doesn't do longwave. The cricket is now on R5Live extra but I miss out on Yesterday in Parliament in the morning which I used to enjoy.

    I broadly agree with those who say that new cars are simply too good to replace after 3 years. They still feel new at that stage.

    I think 25k miles per year makes you a road warrior! IIRC the average is around 10k.
    Ah but this is PB. There are always people who do more, know more, have better experience etc.
    My record is 42,000 per year.

    The joys of working in Leeds, living near Richmond, having a girlfriend who couldn’t drive living in Wirral, and parents in Sheffield.
    Ive been thinking about Mrs Mays festival and decided she should hold it in Sheffield

    I can see a huge round tent packed full of displays nobodys really interested in

    The site should be somewhere on the west side of Sheffield on the main road to Manchester so that all the construction traffic goes on for years.

  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    DavidL said:

    I treated myself to a Jaguar when my Audi somewhat surprisingly went up in smoke. I am pretty happy with it and will probably drive it into the deck given the resale values for diesels.

    The Audi I had before the bonfire ran over 140k miles and, if anything, the engine was running better than when I bought it. Everything else was wearing out though and it just wasn't sensible to spend so much money on an old car with minimal resale value.

    There will no doubt be some proper road warriors on here but I average about 25k miles a year which is a lot of time to spend in a car. For me it just doesn't have to be reliable, it has to be safe in the event that I am involved in an accident, comfortable (especially for my lower back which gives me gip from time to time), have a decent sound system and access to the radio stations I like. One demerit of the Jag is that the radio doesn't do longwave. The cricket is now on R5Live extra but I miss out on Yesterday in Parliament in the morning which I used to enjoy.

    I broadly agree with those who say that new cars are simply too good to replace after 3 years. They still feel new at that stage.

    I think 25k miles per year makes you a road warrior! IIRC the average is around 10k.
    Ah but this is PB. There are always people who do more, know more, have better experience etc.
    My record is 42,000 per year.

    The joys of working in Leeds, living near Richmond, having a girlfriend who couldn’t drive living in Wirral, and parents in Sheffield.
    See?

    But I trust you agree that when you are spending that % of your life behind the wheel there is more to a car than being reliable and keeping the rain off.
    Yup.

    Doing most of those miles in a Porsche Cayenne Turbo made it bearable.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 20,286

    Roger said:

    OT...ish.

    As I wondered around Nice airport yesterday there was a flight from Rome and another from Liverpool. The difference in size would have to be measured in percentages of tons. I fear that in three or four years time when we assume full European Pariah status they will put a surcharge on us for weight followed by a further one for lack of dress sense

    A lot of this is explained by the fact that far fewer Italians travel abroad and those that do tend to be younger or of relatively high social status. If you restricted opportunities for Brits to travel abroad to those two groups, you’d find they look a lot more like the Italians you saw yesterday.

    Hmm, not so.

    Percentage of obese over-15 year olds:

    Italy 9.8%, UK 26.9%

    Admittedly 2015 figures, but I don't think the Italians will have caught up in three years!

    https://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/Obesity-Update-2017.pdf
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 48,285

    Mrs C, that's a legitimate point to raise, as is the consideration of manufacture. If a car runs greenly per mile, but causes huge woe to be emitted in manufacture, does it get a pass?

    A very good question. And a reason why Elon (Pbuh) has stuck solar panels all over his production facilities.
  • DavidL said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    DavidL said:

    I treated myself to a Jaguar when my Audi somewhat surprisingly went up in smoke. I am pretty happy with it and will probably drive it into the deck given the resale values for diesels.

    The Audi I had before the bonfire ran over 140k miles and, if anything, the engine was running better than when I bought it. Everything else was wearing out though and it just wasn't sensible to spend so much money on an old car with minimal resale value.

    There will no doubt be some proper road warriors on here but I average about 25k miles a year which is a lot of time to spend in a car. For me it just doesn't have to be reliable, it has to be safe in the event that I am involved in an accident, comfortable (especially for my lower back which gives me gip from time to time), have a decent sound system and access to the radio stations I like. One demerit of the Jag is that the radio doesn't do longwave. The cricket is now on R5Live extra but I miss out on Yesterday in Parliament in the morning which I used to enjoy.

    I broadly agree with those who say that new cars are simply too good to replace after 3 years. They still feel new at that stage.

    I think 25k miles per year makes you a road warrior! IIRC the average is around 10k.
    Ah but this is PB. There are always people who do more, know more, have better experience etc.
    My record is 42,000 per year.

    The joys of working in Leeds, living near Richmond, having a girlfriend who couldn’t drive living in Wirral, and parents in Sheffield.
    Ive been thinking about Mrs Mays festival and decided she should hold it in Sheffield

    I can see a huge round tent packed full of displays nobodys really interested in

    The site should be somewhere on the west side of Sheffield on the main road to Manchester so that all the construction traffic goes on for years.

    Fine by me. I use the train.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 18,254

    DavidL said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    DavidL said:

    I treated myself to a Jaguar when my Audi somewhat surprisingly went up in smoke. I am pretty happy with it and will probably drive it into the deck given the resale values for diesels.

    The Audi I had before the bonfire ran over 140k miles and, if anything, the engine was running better than when I bought it. Everything else was wearing out though and it just wasn't sensible to spend so much money on an old car with minimal resale value.

    There will no doubt be some proper road warriors on here but I average about 25k miles a year which is a lot of time to spend in a car. For me it just doesn't have to be reliable, it has to be safe in the event that I am involved in an accident, comfortable (especially for my lower back which gives me gip from time to time), have a decent sound system and access to the radio stations I like. One demerit of the Jag is that the radio doesn't do longwave. The cricket is now on R5Live extra but I miss out on Yesterday in Parliament in the morning which I used to enjoy.

    I broadly agree with those who say that new cars are simply too good to replace after 3 years. They still feel new at that stage.

    I think 25k miles per year makes you a road warrior! IIRC the average is around 10k.
    Ah but this is PB. There are always people who do more, know more, have better experience etc.
    My record is 42,000 per year.

    The joys of working in Leeds, living near Richmond, having a girlfriend who couldn’t drive living in Wirral, and parents in Sheffield.
    Ive been thinking about Mrs Mays festival and decided she should hold it in Sheffield

    I can see a huge round tent packed full of displays nobodys really interested in

    The site should be somewhere on the west side of Sheffield on the main road to Manchester so that all the construction traffic goes on for years.

    Fine by me. I use the train.
    lol
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 22,024

    DavidL said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    DavidL said:

    I treated myself to a Jaguar when my Audi somewhat surprisingly went up in smoke. I am pretty happy with it and will probably drive it into the deck given the resale values for diesels.

    The Audi I had before the bonfire ran over 140k miles and, if anything, the engine was running better than when I bought it. Everything else was wearing out though and it just wasn't sensible to spend so much money on an old car with minimal resale value.

    There will no doubt be some proper road warriors on here but I average about 25k miles a year which is a lot of time to spend in a car. For me it just doesn't have to be reliable, it has to be safe in the event that I am involved in an accident, comfortable (especially for my lower back which gives me gip from time to time), have a decent sound system and access to the radio stations I like. One demerit of the Jag is that the radio doesn't do longwave. The cricket is now on R5Live extra but I miss out on Yesterday in Parliament in the morning which I used to enjoy.

    I broadly agree with those who say that new cars are simply too good to replace after 3 years. They still feel new at that stage.

    I think 25k miles per year makes you a road warrior! IIRC the average is around 10k.
    Ah but this is PB. There are always people who do more, know more, have better experience etc.
    My record is 42,000 per year.

    The joys of working in Leeds, living near Richmond, having a girlfriend who couldn’t drive living in Wirral, and parents in Sheffield.
    Ive been thinking about Mrs Mays festival and decided she should hold it in Sheffield

    I can see a huge round tent packed full of displays nobodys really interested in

    The site should be somewhere on the west side of Sheffield on the main road to Manchester so that all the construction traffic goes on for years.

    Surely it should be held in a field of rotting fruit? Handy for the innovative jam as well.
  • LordOfReasonLordOfReason Posts: 457

    DavidL said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    DavidL said:

    I treated myself to a Jaguar when my Audi somewhat surprisingly went up in smoke. I am pretty happy with it and will probably drive it into the deck given the resale values for diesels.

    The Audi I had before the bonfire ran over 140k miles and, if anything, the engine was running better than when I bought it. Everything else was wearing out though and it just wasn't sensible to spend so much money on an old car with minimal resale value.

    There will no doubt be some proper road warriors on here but I average about 25k miles a year which is a lot of time to spend in a car. For me it just doesn't have to be reliable, it has to be safe in the event that I am involved in an accident, comfortable (especially for my lower back which gives me gip from time to time), have a decent sound system and access to the radio stations I like. One demerit of the Jag is that the radio doesn't do longwave. The cricket is now on R5Live extra but I miss out on Yesterday in Parliament in the morning which I used to enjoy.

    I broadly agree with those who say that new cars are simply too good to replace after 3 years. They still feel new at that stage.

    I think 25k miles per year makes you a road warrior! IIRC the average is around 10k.
    Ah but this is PB. There are always people who do more, know more, have better experience etc.
    My record is 42,000 per year.

    The joys of working in Leeds, living near Richmond, having a girlfriend who couldn’t drive living in Wirral, and parents in Sheffield.
    Ive been thinking about Mrs Mays festival and decided she should hold it in Sheffield

    I can see a huge round tent packed full of displays nobodys really interested in

    The site should be somewhere on the west side of Sheffield on the main road to Manchester so that all the construction traffic goes on for years.

    It’s supposed to be soft politics to show global Britain is open for business, not a personal vendetta.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 19,460

    Let me make a predicition / comment. If May agrees an all UK backstop with the EU that is time limited (to a reasonable degree), or can be ended by the UK unilaterally, then that would be an acceptable outcome. I think the ERG might even support the withdrawal agreement on the basis they can ditch her and fix the trading relationship later. Remember this is what she promised her MPs in July.

    If May (as it appears she is doing) agrees a permanent backstop that cannot ended without the consent of the EU, she will trigger a leadership challenge and will lose. The idea that you can commit the UK to the control of a foreign power with no way out is unthinkable. She will play right into the ERGs hands - this is an easy thing to explain to the public and she will have no support when it is realised what she has done.

    It may be a small difference, but it is crucial.

    I assume you think TM has not thought through these ideas.

    I do understand your desire to break free completely but it is not going to happen.

    I have no idea where this debacle ends but I do know TM will protect the integrity of the Union and just in time manufacturing and if ERG take her deal down do not be surprised if the end result is we do not leave at all

    Nothing would surprise me. But it won’t just be the ERG that take down that deal. Many Tory MP’s will refuse to bind the nation in this manner. It really would be a constitutional crisis as the ability of Parliament to revoke laws is sacrosanct. And no, I am not convinced May understands. She will choose to believe that it will never happen because she will get Chequers over the line in the transition period. Which clearly won’t happen.
    I have maintained for some time that constant speculation does not actually get us to the end result. I have no idea, nor strong views on any of the alternatives, but am willing just to wait for the next few weeks to see where this goes.

    Someone said yesterday that I would be on here within 2 minutes of TM starting her speech saying how it was her best ever.

    I didn't as it so happens as many others did. Indeed the media this morning seem to say it was her best ever speech and has reinvigorated the party.

    I am more than pleased for TM who has confounded all critics by not only delivering a successful address to conference, but that not one of the stunts including booing and slow clapping happened

    This morning she is as strong as she has been but she has mountains of challenges facing her and we await to see how she resolves them
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,381

    This talk about cars is stressful. I've promised my other half that we'll buy a car this month. I'm still struggling to decide what I might buy, and the more guidance I get the more confused I get.

    And that is why car sales are plummeting.

    It is so much more complicated today than ever before. I heard someone on the radio say they ran over their charging lead and it cost £800 for a new one. I have no idea how true that is but it is a lot of money just to be able to charge your car
    I like the concept of 'the tyranny of choice'. Even in my own field (computers), there are a plethora of choices which made selecting the parts for my current PC a chore rather than a pleasure.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 22,187
    Pulpstar said:

    Mrs C, that's a legitimate point to raise, as is the consideration of manufacture. If a car runs greenly per mile, but causes huge woe to be emitted in manufacture, does it get a pass?

    A very good question. And a reason why Elon (Pbuh) has stuck solar panels all over his production facilities.
    A good point, but there is more to manufacture than just the final assembly. For one thing, the mining of the rare earths and materials for the batteries isn't particularly ecologically sound...

    Which is why we should start asteroid mining! ;)

    And in other news, another rover has landed on Riyugu. Well done Jaxa!
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 19,460
    GIN1138 said:



    I have no idea where this debacle ends

    It ends with Jezza becoming PM and the Tories out of power for 20-30 years (and probably splitting)

    After Theresa May's betryal of the Leave voters she conned into voting for her in 2017 all I can say the sooner the better!

    #ToriesOut
    I think you are over egging it. There is no evidence for your assertion and so long as comrade Corbyn is around it makes it even more unlikely.

    TM stood on the centre ground yesterday and that is where GE are won
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,061

    This talk about cars is stressful. I've promised my other half that we'll buy a car this month. I'm still struggling to decide what I might buy, and the more guidance I get the more confused I get.

    And that is why car sales are plummeting.

    It is so much more complicated today than ever before. I heard someone on the radio say they ran over their charging lead and it cost £800 for a new one. I have no idea how true that is but it is a lot of money just to be able to charge your car
    There is going to be a need for an awful lot of charge cable replacements since cables will have to dangle from the house across the pavement and to the electric car parked in the street.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 2,479
    TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    A major problem with electric cars is that, in two important ways, they're a *worse* technology: they have less range than IC cars, and 'refuelling' them takes many times longer. These are two factors that matter to many drivers.

    With an EV you can refuel at home, that's a significant advantage over IC.

    I go everywhere by bike as my three cars (E36 M3 Touring and 2 x 911) are more or less permanently in bits.
    Do you feel the need, the need for...
    When I was stationed at NAS Oceana we used to have "safety days" with no flying So we spent them driving our cars whichever direction was downwind on 5R/23L. I inadvertently got my M3 (a different one) into a full on sanpatsu drift and exited the runway with no authority in the yaw axis at 125mph and ripped every control arm and consequently all four wheels out of the subframes. It cost me $8k to get it fixed and $8k was a lot of fucking money in 1999. So in answer to your question: yes.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 46,447
    Mr. Pulpstar, it's a good idea, though we could also use things like Stirling[sp] engines, which produce energy based on temperature difference. Buildings have to be heated anyway, so stick a few engines on the roof and it'll reduce the heating bill.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 48,285
    edited October 4

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    DavidL said:

    I treated myself to a Jaguar when my Audi somewhat surprisingly went up in smoke. I am pretty happy with it and will probably drive it into the deck given the resale values for diesels.

    The Audi I had before the bonfire ran over 140k miles and, if anything, the engine was running better than when I bought it. Everything else was wearing out though and it just wasn't sensible to spend so much money on an old car with minimal resale value.

    There will no doubt be some proper road warriors on here but I average about 25k miles a year which is a lot of time to spend in a car. For me it just doesn't have to be reliable, it has to be safe in the event that I am involved in an accident, comfortable (especially for my lower back which gives me gip from time to time), have a decent sound system and access to the radio stations I like. One demerit of the Jag is that the radio doesn't do longwave. The cricket is now on R5Live extra but I miss out on Yesterday in Parliament in the morning which I used to enjoy.

    I broadly agree with those who say that new cars are simply too good to replace after 3 years. They still feel new at that stage.

    I think 25k miles per year makes you a road warrior! IIRC the average is around 10k.
    Ah but this is PB. There are always people who do more, know more, have better experience etc.
    My record is 42,000 per year.

    The joys of working in Leeds, living near Richmond, having a girlfriend who couldn’t drive living in Wirral, and parents in Sheffield.
    See?

    But I trust you agree that when you are spending that % of your life behind the wheel there is more to a car than being reliable and keeping the rain off.
    Yup.

    Doing most of those miles in a Porsche Cayenne Turbo made it bearable.
    At the start of my recent holiday I had to venture through the south of England. Somewhat naively I thought the M25 might just about be OK seeing as it was a Sunday evening in September. Boy was I wrong ! And if it is like that on a sunday evening... I doubt any car can make driving near London pleasurable.
    One quickly realises why the train is so popular in exurbs of London !
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 18,254
    edited October 4

    DavidL said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    DavidL said:

    I treated myself to a Jaguar when my Audi somewhat surprisingly went up in smoke. I am pretty happy with it and will probably drive it into the deck given the resale values for diesels.

    The Audi I had before the bonfire ran over 140k miles and, if anything, the engine was running better than when I bought it. Everything else was wearing out though and it just wasn't sensible to spend so much money on an old car with minimal resale value.

    There will no doubt be some proper road warriors on here but I average about 25k miles a year which is a lot of time to spend in a car. For me it just doesn't have to be reliable, it has to be safe in the event that I am involved in an accident, comfortable (especially for my lower back which gives me gip from time to time), have a decent sound system and access to the radio stations I like. One demerit of the Jag is that the radio doesn't do longwave. The cricket is now on R5Live extra but I miss out on Yesterday in Parliament in the morning which I used to enjoy.

    I broadly agree with those who say that new cars are simply too good to replace after 3 years. They still feel new at that stage.

    I think 25k miles per year makes you a road warrior! IIRC the average is around 10k.
    Ah but this is PB. There are always people who do more, know more, have better experience etc.
    My record is 42,000 per year.

    The joys of working in Leeds, living near Richmond, having a girlfriend who couldn’t drive living in Wirral, and parents in Sheffield.
    Ive been thinking about Mrs Mays festival and decided she should hold it in Sheffield

    I can see a huge round tent packed full of displays nobodys really interested in

    The site should be somewhere on the west side of Sheffield on the main road to Manchester so that all the construction traffic goes on for years.

    Surely it should be held in a field of rotting fruit? Handy for the innovative jam as well.
    Its meant to bring us all together

    so I propose putting David Cameron on ducking stool. remainers would pay to vent their spleen on the man who called the referendum and leavers would pay to see him in a vat of ice water as they are loonies and fruitcakes.

    Dave could then justify becoming Sir Dave as he has united the nation after a difficut time.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 23,228

    Roger said:

    OT...ish.

    As I wondered around Nice airport yesterday there was a flight from Rome and another from Liverpool. The difference in size would have to be measured in percentages of tons. I fear that in three or four years time when we assume full European Pariah status they will put a surcharge on us for weight followed by a further one for lack of dress sense

    A lot of this is explained by the fact that far fewer Italians travel abroad and those that do tend to be younger or of relatively high social status. If you restricted opportunities for Brits to travel abroad to those two groups, you’d find they look a lot more like the Italians you saw yesterday.

    Hmm, not so.

    Percentage of obese over-15 year olds:

    Italy 9.8%, UK 26.9%

    Admittedly 2015 figures, but I don't think the Italians will have caught up in three years!

    https://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/Obesity-Update-2017.pdf
    This seems to me quite a class thing. My son is 15 and at a private school and I can only think of 1 boy who is even mildly obese in his year. Most are fit and slim like him. But when in the streets of Dundee I constantly see overweight children, frequently with pasties from Greggs in their hands wandering about.

    It also seems to me that this difference in attitude to weight is a major cause in the discrepancy in life expectancy between the classes (along with a much smaller propensity to smoke). There are consequences for this behaviour.

    I don't like nanny states. The Scottish government's latest wheeze, after blocking discounts for larger purchases of alcohol and minimum pricing, is apparently to ban your free prawn crackers with your Chinese carryout and ban discounting for upsizing meals. I am instinctively against this sort of nonsense and yet, as with minimum pricing, I have to acknowledge that we have a serious problem.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 5,782

    Mrs C, that's a legitimate point to raise, as is the consideration of manufacture. If a car runs greenly per mile, but causes huge woe to be emitted in manufacture, does it get a pass?

    This is complicated by how many miles you expect the car to be driven for. Most diesel engines will last 250,000 miles fine, but many cars aren't driven enough each year to reach that before being scrapped. I expect you would need to replace the battery in an electric vehicle several times before you reached 250,000 miles - but then if the battery is recycled that also changes the equation...
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 11,337
    edited October 4

    Cyclefree said:

    I see that Ms Abbott has responded rather ungraciously to Mrs May’s condemnation of those who attack her.

    Disappointing though not, perhaps, entirely unexpected.

    I think it says more about Abbott than May.

    Labour have become a party of constant moaning, running the country down, suggesting everyone is on zero hours contracts and we are all eating in food banks, and so it goes on

    The leaders are the misery party and are not fit to govern
    Whereas the Conservatives, in Opposition, were full of sunshine, graceful acknowledgement of Government success and positive policies? Not my recollection. British politics just doesn't work like that. I wish it did, and IMO one reason I held on to Broxtowe as long as I did was that I focused on what we wanted to do rather than on what was wrong with the other side. There is a real market for that sort of thing - you'd hesitate to go to a builder whose main argument was that all other builders were worse..
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 27,641

    Roger said:

    OT...ish.

    As I wondered around Nice airport yesterday there was a flight from Rome and another from Liverpool. The difference in size would have to be measured in percentages of tons. I fear that in three or four years time when we assume full European Pariah status they will put a surcharge on us for weight followed by a further one for lack of dress sense

    A lot of this is explained by the fact that far fewer Italians travel abroad and those that do tend to be younger or of relatively high social status. If you restricted opportunities for Brits to travel abroad to those two groups, you’d find they look a lot more like the Italians you saw yesterday.

    Hmm, not so.

    Percentage of obese over-15 year olds:

    Italy 9.8%, UK 26.9%

    Admittedly 2015 figures, but I don't think the Italians will have caught up in three years!

    https://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/Obesity-Update-2017.pdf

    Obesity is strongly linked to class and levels of education. If you restricted travel from the UK to the demographic of Italian travellers Roger would see far fewer fat Brits. That was my point: the highest obesity rates are found among working class people with no higher education. In the UK, foreign travel is not unusual among working class people. In Italy, it is. And I say that as a fat, university-educated member of the middle class!

  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 2,747

    Roger said:

    OT...ish.

    As I wondered around Nice airport yesterday there was a flight from Rome and another from Liverpool. The difference in size would have to be measured in percentages of tons. I fear that in three or four years time when we assume full European Pariah status they will put a surcharge on us for weight followed by a further one for lack of dress sense

    A lot of this is explained by the fact that far fewer Italians travel abroad and those that do tend to be younger or of relatively high social status. If you restricted opportunities for Brits to travel abroad to those two groups, you’d find they look a lot more like the Italians you saw yesterday.

    Hmm, not so.

    Percentage of obese over-15 year olds:

    Italy 9.8%, UK 26.9%

    Admittedly 2015 figures, but I don't think the Italians will have caught up in three years!

    https://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/Obesity-Update-2017.pdf
    What a depressing statistic. We need less sympathy and more truth-telling on this topic.

    Sugar taxes are a good start too.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 48,285

    Pulpstar said:

    Mrs C, that's a legitimate point to raise, as is the consideration of manufacture. If a car runs greenly per mile, but causes huge woe to be emitted in manufacture, does it get a pass?

    A very good question. And a reason why Elon (Pbuh) has stuck solar panels all over his production facilities.
    A good point, but there is more to manufacture than just the final assembly. For one thing, the mining of the rare earths and materials for the batteries isn't particularly ecologically sound...

    Which is why we should start asteroid mining! ;)

    And in other news, another rover has landed on Riyugu. Well done Jaxa!
    Well let me tell you about his other company..
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 18,700

    Roger said:

    OT...ish.

    As I wondered around Nice airport yesterday there was a flight from Rome and another from Liverpool. The difference in size would have to be measured in percentages of tons. I fear that in three or four years time when we assume full European Pariah status they will put a surcharge on us for weight followed by a further one for lack of dress sense

    A lot of this is explained by the fact that far fewer Italians travel abroad and those that do tend to be younger or of relatively high social status. If you restricted opportunities for Brits to travel abroad to those two groups, you’d find they look a lot more like the Italians you saw yesterday.

    Hmm, not so.

    Percentage of obese over-15 year olds:

    Italy 9.8%, UK 26.9%

    Admittedly 2015 figures, but I don't think the Italians will have caught up in three years!

    https://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/Obesity-Update-2017.pdf

    Ethnicity and childhood obesity figures - your best chance of being a skinny kid is to be white-asian mix

    https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/health/preventing-illness/overweight-children/latest



  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,061
    edited October 4

    This talk about cars is stressful. I've promised my other half that we'll buy a car this month. I'm still struggling to decide what I might buy, and the more guidance I get the more confused I get.

    Should be a good time to buy. Sales are down and manufacturers are looking for customers.

    The majority of people have been using personal contract purchase, leasing the car for three years rather than buying the car outright. This results in lower monthly costs but you don't own the car at the end of the agreement unless you purchase it at the end of the three years.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 20,286

    Cyclefree said:

    I see that Ms Abbott has responded rather ungraciously to Mrs May’s condemnation of those who attack her.

    Disappointing though not, perhaps, entirely unexpected.

    I think it says more about Abbott than May.

    Labour have become a party of constant moaning, running the country down, suggesting everyone is on zero hours contracts and we are all eating in food banks, and so it goes on

    The leaders are the misery party and are not fit to govern
    Whereas the Conservatives, in Opposition, were full of sunshine, graceful acknowledgement of Government success and positive policies? Not my recollection. ...
    How can you have forgotten?

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/let-sunshine-win-the-day-says-cameron-the-optimist-008szp2qk6f
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 5,782

    This talk about cars is stressful. I've promised my other half that we'll buy a car this month. I'm still struggling to decide what I might buy, and the more guidance I get the more confused I get.

    And that is why car sales are plummeting.

    It is so much more complicated today than ever before. I heard someone on the radio say they ran over their charging lead and it cost £800 for a new one. I have no idea how true that is but it is a lot of money just to be able to charge your car
    There is going to be a need for an awful lot of charge cable replacements since cables will have to dangle from the house across the pavement and to the electric car parked in the street.
    I thought there was a plan to make new lampposts into charging points?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 46,447
    Mr. Me, again, a very good point.

    It's a bit like trying to understand rates of mental illness. Lots go undiagnosed, so there's a large dose of guesswork. And some things might or might not be considered that way. Is someone who gambles every day, and wins, and make a living at it, an addict who needs help? Is a man who eats a lot and purges by 'excessive exercise' a bulimic?

    Obviously we have to do our best, but it's tricky.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 15,583
    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    A major problem with electric cars is that, in two important ways, they're a *worse* technology: they have less range than IC cars, and 'refuelling' them takes many times longer. These are two factors that matter to many drivers.

    With an EV you can refuel at home, that's a significant advantage over IC.

    I go everywhere by bike as my three cars (E36 M3 Touring and 2 x 911) are more or less permanently in bits.
    Do you feel the need, the need for...
    When I was stationed at NAS Oceana we used to have "safety days" with no flying So we spent them driving our cars whichever direction was downwind on 5R/23L. I inadvertently got my M3 (a different one) into a full on sanpatsu drift and exited the runway with no authority in the yaw axis at 125mph and ripped every control arm and consequently all four wheels out of the subframes. It cost me $8k to get it fixed and $8k was a lot of fucking money in 1999. So in answer to your question: yes.
    LOL. And the fine?
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,061

    Roger said:

    OT...ish.

    As I wondered around Nice airport yesterday there was a flight from Rome and another from Liverpool. The difference in size would have to be measured in percentages of tons. I fear that in three or four years time when we assume full European Pariah status they will put a surcharge on us for weight followed by a further one for lack of dress sense

    A lot of this is explained by the fact that far fewer Italians travel abroad and those that do tend to be younger or of relatively high social status. If you restricted opportunities for Brits to travel abroad to those two groups, you’d find they look a lot more like the Italians you saw yesterday.

    Hmm, not so.

    Percentage of obese over-15 year olds:

    Italy 9.8%, UK 26.9%

    Admittedly 2015 figures, but I don't think the Italians will have caught up in three years!

    https://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/Obesity-Update-2017.pdf
    Clearly live in the Uk for La Dolce Vita
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 20,286
    edited October 4

    Roger said:

    OT...ish.

    As I wondered around Nice airport yesterday there was a flight from Rome and another from Liverpool. The difference in size would have to be measured in percentages of tons. I fear that in three or four years time when we assume full European Pariah status they will put a surcharge on us for weight followed by a further one for lack of dress sense

    A lot of this is explained by the fact that far fewer Italians travel abroad and those that do tend to be younger or of relatively high social status. If you restricted opportunities for Brits to travel abroad to those two groups, you’d find they look a lot more like the Italians you saw yesterday.

    Hmm, not so.

    Percentage of obese over-15 year olds:

    Italy 9.8%, UK 26.9%

    Admittedly 2015 figures, but I don't think the Italians will have caught up in three years!

    https://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/Obesity-Update-2017.pdf

    Obesity is strongly linked to class and levels of education. If you restricted travel from the UK to the demographic of Italian travellers Roger would see far fewer fat Brits. That was my point: the highest obesity rates are found among working class people with no higher education. In the UK, foreign travel is not unusual among working class people. In Italy, it is. And I say that as a fat, university-educated member of the middle class!

    Yes but the converse isn't true: working-class people in Italy aren't (in general) grossly fat like so many of their UK equivalents.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 1,742


    Can't imagine the headlines if this was Labour.

    Also really don't understand the far right hang up regarding communism/marxism still, its useful because it makes a mockery of the far right support Corbyn smear that has come up now and again but on a practical level surely the modern day far right would be better off tactically concentrating their fire elsewhere, I don't think we will fight the commies is the rallying call it was in 30's Germany as the threat really isn't there like it was.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 20,286



    Can't imagine the headlines if this was Labour.

    Also really don't understand the far right hang up regarding communism/marxism still, its useful because it makes a mockery of the far right support Corbyn smear that has come up now and again but on a practical level surely the modern day far right would be better off tactically concentrating their fire elsewhere, I don't think we will fight the commies is the rallying call it was in 30's Germany as the threat really isn't there like it was.

    You're flogging a dead horse. Come up with some examples of Theresa May or other cabinet ministers endorsing anti-Semitic stuff as Corbyn has and you might have a point.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,061

    Pulpstar said:

    Mrs C, that's a legitimate point to raise, as is the consideration of manufacture. If a car runs greenly per mile, but causes huge woe to be emitted in manufacture, does it get a pass?

    A very good question. And a reason why Elon (Pbuh) has stuck solar panels all over his production facilities.
    A good point, but there is more to manufacture than just the final assembly. For one thing, the mining of the rare earths and materials for the batteries isn't particularly ecologically sound...

    Which is why we should start asteroid mining! ;)

    And in other news, another rover has landed on Riyugu. Well done Jaxa!

    My first car was a 1938 Rover and my second car was a 1934 Rover. Well done Rover in 2018.
This discussion has been closed.