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  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080

    Roger said:

    OT...ish.

    As I wondered around Nice airport yesterday there was a flight from Rome and another from Liverpool. The difference in size would have to be measured in percentages of tons. I fear that in three or four years time when we assume full European Pariah status they will put a surcharge on us for weight followed by a further one for lack of dress sense

    A lot of this is explained by the fact that far fewer Italians travel abroad and those that do tend to be younger or of relatively high social status. If you restricted opportunities for Brits to travel abroad to those two groups, you’d find they look a lot more like the Italians you saw yesterday.

    Hmm, not so.

    Percentage of obese over-15 year olds:

    Italy 9.8%, UK 26.9%

    Admittedly 2015 figures, but I don't think the Italians will have caught up in three years!

    https://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/Obesity-Update-2017.pdf

    Obesity is strongly linked to class and levels of education. If you restricted travel from the UK to the demographic of Italian travellers Roger would see far fewer fat Brits. That was my point: the highest obesity rates are found among working class people with no higher education. In the UK, foreign travel is not unusual among working class people. In Italy, it is. And I say that as a fat, university-educated member of the middle class!

    Yes but the converse isn't true: working-class people in Italy aren't (in general) grossly fat like so many of their UK equivalents.
    Italians of all classes share the same broad ideas about good food and drink, whereas in the UK the dietary habits vary dramatically by class.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited October 2018

    This talk about cars is stressful. I've promised my other half that we'll buy a car this month. I'm still struggling to decide what I might buy, and the more guidance I get the more confused I get.

    Should be a good time to buy. Sales are down and manufacturers are looking for customers.

    The majority of people have been using personal contract purchase, leasing the car for three years rather than buying the car outright. This results in lower monthly costs but you don't own the car at the end of the agreement unless you purchase it at the end of the three years.
    Given the excessive depreciation on secondhand diesels over the past year or so, there’s almost certainly going to be a lot of finance companies upside-down as they come off leases in the next couple of years. Their calculations didn’t take ‘events’ into account and they didn’t predict that diesel would become massively unpopular in such a short space of time.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,753
    But a no deal Brexit would not benefit France. They are no more ready for that than we are. Of course it would probably disbenefit us more but the implications for them would be significant, as they seem to be waking up too.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    Cyclefree said:

    I see that Ms Abbott has responded rather ungraciously to Mrs May’s condemnation of those who attack her.

    Disappointing though not, perhaps, entirely unexpected.

    I think it says more about Abbott than May.

    Labour have become a party of constant moaning, running the country down, suggesting everyone is on zero hours contracts and we are all eating in food banks, and so it goes on

    The leaders are the misery party and are not fit to govern
    Whereas the Conservatives, in Opposition, were full of sunshine, graceful acknowledgement of Government success and positive policies? Not my recollection. ...
    How can you have forgotten?

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/let-sunshine-win-the-day-says-cameron-the-optimist-008szp2qk6f
    Surely Cameron and Corbyn are similar in this way, campaigners who would present an optimistic vision (I'll assume so for Cameron) whilst criticising the opposition government of the day.

    Criticising Labour for being miserable when led by May seems a touch hypocritical, if we are talking about criticism of the government then that it what oppositions do.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,550

    Mrs C, that's a legitimate point to raise, as is the consideration of manufacture. If a car runs greenly per mile, but causes huge woe to be emitted in manufacture, does it get a pass?

    This is complicated by how many miles you expect the car to be driven for. Most diesel engines will last 250,000 miles fine, but many cars aren't driven enough each year to reach that before being scrapped. I expect you would need to replace the battery in an electric vehicle several times before you reached 250,000 miles - but then if the battery is recycled that also changes the equation...
    Surprisingly not.
    There a quite a few fleet vehicle Teslas in LA which have comfortably exceeded 300K miles.

    There's some degradation, but manageable. Also the servicing requirements are substantially less.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    Mr. Me, again, a very good point.

    It's a bit like trying to understand rates of mental illness. Lots go undiagnosed, so there's a large dose of guesswork. And some things might or might not be considered that way. Is someone who gambles every day, and wins, and make a living at it, an addict who needs help? Is a man who eats a lot and purges by 'excessive exercise' a bulimic?

    Obviously we have to do our best, but it's tricky.

    This is why Rumsfeld's much mocked statement about "known unknowns" and "unknown unknowns" was so widely used in academic circles.

    You start with what you know. Then you try to work out how to find out about the things that you know you don't know. And you watch out for the things you don't know that you don't know.

    So, what we know about electric cars is that they don't release air pollution directly into city streets and in principle we can fuel them without burning fossil fuels. Those are both good.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    https://twitter.com/HKesvani/status/1047492918750183424

    Can't imagine the headlines if this was Labour.

    Also really don't understand the far right hang up regarding communism/marxism still, its useful because it makes a mockery of the far right support Corbyn smear that has come up now and again but on a practical level surely the modern day far right would be better off tactically concentrating their fire elsewhere, I don't think we will fight the commies is the rallying call it was in 30's Germany as the threat really isn't there like it was.

    You're flogging a dead horse. Come up with some examples of Theresa May or other cabinet ministers endorsing anti-Semitic stuff as Corbyn has and you might have a point.
    Come up with examples of Corbyn sending out go home vans and enthusiastically pursuing a hostile environment to the windrush generation and you might have a point.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,753
    I have been asking about this week but no one seemed to have much of a clue about any application to appeal to the Supreme Court. That would have been in open court so it is likely word of it would have got around. Presumably the government decided not to, for whatever reason.
  • DavidL said:

    But a no deal Brexit would not benefit France. They are no more ready for that than we are. Of course it would probably disbenefit us more but the implications for them would be significant, as they seem to be waking up too.
    France warned on Wednesday that it would prefer Britain to crash out of Europe without a deal rather than accept a compromise that undermined the integrity of the European Union.

    The stark warning from Nathalie Loiseau, the country’s Europe minister, came as both sides prepared for a crucial fortnight of negotiation following the close of the Conservative party conference.

    “No deal would be better than a bad deal,” Ms Loiseau told a French radio station, turning familiar Brexiteers’ own mantra back on the UK, before warning that “time is running out” for Theresa May to strike a deal with Brussels.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/03/no-deal-brexit-better-bad-deal-us-says-macron-minister/
  • https://twitter.com/HKesvani/status/1047492918750183424

    Can't imagine the headlines if this was Labour.

    Also really don't understand the far right hang up regarding communism/marxism still, its useful because it makes a mockery of the far right support Corbyn smear that has come up now and again but on a practical level surely the modern day far right would be better off tactically concentrating their fire elsewhere, I don't think we will fight the commies is the rallying call it was in 30's Germany as the threat really isn't there like it was.

    You're flogging a dead horse. Come up with some examples of Theresa May or other cabinet ministers endorsing anti-Semitic stuff as Corbyn has and you might have a point.
    Come up with examples of Corbyn sending out go home vans and enthusiastically pursuing a hostile environment to the windrush generation and you might have a point.
    LOL! Talk about changing the subject because you've completely lost the argument!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    https://twitter.com/HKesvani/status/1047492918750183424

    Can't imagine the headlines if this was Labour.

    Also really don't understand the far right hang up regarding communism/marxism still, its useful because it makes a mockery of the far right support Corbyn smear that has come up now and again but on a practical level surely the modern day far right would be better off tactically concentrating their fire elsewhere, I don't think we will fight the commies is the rallying call it was in 30's Germany as the threat really isn't there like it was.

    You're flogging a dead horse. Come up with some examples of Theresa May or other cabinet ministers endorsing anti-Semitic stuff as Corbyn has and you might have a point.
    Come up with examples of Corbyn sending out go home vans and enthusiastically pursuing a hostile environment to the windrush generation and you might have a point.
    Or selling mugs which espouse controlling immigration. Say.
  • DavidL said:

    I have been asking about this week but no one seemed to have much of a clue about any application to appeal to the Supreme Court. That would have been in open court so it is likely word of it would have got around. Presumably the government decided not to, for whatever reason.
    Maybe interested in the ruling
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,550

    I agree with you on electric cars. It's all very well saying how green it is, ....

    Are they green, or do they just move the pollution to the power station?

    Anyway, with that thought, I shall leave you all to it as people are demanding I do stuff...
    Hopefully soon we won't be burning fossil fuels to generate electricity and certainly we burn less than in the past.

    Even if we generated all our electricity with fossil fuels you could still make a case for electric cars on the basis that the pollution from cars is often released directly into city centres. I'm not sure if power stations are more efficient than internal combustion engines once you factor in transmission losses, but that is also a possibility.
    Night time charging will be a good use of all the currently unused wind generation...

    It's all a bit of a kludge right now, but it won't take all that long to have a reasonably functional system.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    https://twitter.com/HKesvani/status/1047492918750183424

    Can't imagine the headlines if this was Labour.

    Also really don't understand the far right hang up regarding communism/marxism still, its useful because it makes a mockery of the far right support Corbyn smear that has come up now and again but on a practical level surely the modern day far right would be better off tactically concentrating their fire elsewhere, I don't think we will fight the commies is the rallying call it was in 30's Germany as the threat really isn't there like it was.

    You're flogging a dead horse. Come up with some examples of Theresa May or other cabinet ministers endorsing anti-Semitic stuff as Corbyn has and you might have a point.
    Come up with examples of Corbyn sending out go home vans and enthusiastically pursuing a hostile environment to the windrush generation and you might have a point.
    LOL! Talk about changing the subject because you've completely lost the argument!
    Racism was the subject wasn't it?

    Ohh wait that was right wing racism so somehow doesn't count, silly me I forgot.

    Well back to shifting books on cultural marxism in between discussions about why the left are so racist...
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    edited October 2018

    DavidL said:

    But a no deal Brexit would not benefit France. They are no more ready for that than we are. Of course it would probably disbenefit us more but the implications for them would be significant, as they seem to be waking up too.
    France warned on Wednesday that it would prefer Britain to crash out of Europe without a deal rather than accept a compromise that undermined the integrity of the European Union.

    The stark warning from Nathalie Loiseau, the country’s Europe minister, came as both sides prepared for a crucial fortnight of negotiation following the close of the Conservative party conference.

    “No deal would be better than a bad deal,” Ms Loiseau told a French radio station, turning familiar Brexiteers’ own mantra back on the UK, before warning that “time is running out” for Theresa May to strike a deal with Brussels.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/03/no-deal-brexit-better-bad-deal-us-says-macron-minister/
    since when have you started to believe what the french say ?
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Nigelb said:

    Mrs C, that's a legitimate point to raise, as is the consideration of manufacture. If a car runs greenly per mile, but causes huge woe to be emitted in manufacture, does it get a pass?

    This is complicated by how many miles you expect the car to be driven for. Most diesel engines will last 250,000 miles fine, but many cars aren't driven enough each year to reach that before being scrapped. I expect you would need to replace the battery in an electric vehicle several times before you reached 250,000 miles - but then if the battery is recycled that also changes the equation...
    Surprisingly not.
    There a quite a few fleet vehicle Teslas in LA which have comfortably exceeded 300K miles.

    There's some degradation, but manageable. Also the servicing requirements are substantially less.
    Oh, surprising. I have extrapolated from my experience with mobile device batteries to worry about battery degradation, but a quick Google does seem to indicate it's not a big deal with electric car batteries.

    Thanks for pointing that out.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    edited October 2018
    TOPPING said:

    https://twitter.com/HKesvani/status/1047492918750183424

    Can't imagine the headlines if this was Labour.

    Also really don't understand the far right hang up regarding communism/marxism still, its useful because it makes a mockery of the far right support Corbyn smear that has come up now and again but on a practical level surely the modern day far right would be better off tactically concentrating their fire elsewhere, I don't think we will fight the commies is the rallying call it was in 30's Germany as the threat really isn't there like it was.

    You're flogging a dead horse. Come up with some examples of Theresa May or other cabinet ministers endorsing anti-Semitic stuff as Corbyn has and you might have a point.
    Come up with examples of Corbyn sending out go home vans and enthusiastically pursuing a hostile environment to the windrush generation and you might have a point.
    Or selling mugs which espouse controlling immigration. Say.
    I'm not sure why anyone would think I was a big fan of Labour's own little play to right wing populism in regard to immigration?

    It was silly anyway, why vote Labour if you care about that when you had Theresa May who is prepared to go further than just playing up to it. I don't have a lot of time for some on Labour's right but I can't imagine most of them being happy to send out the go home vans. Go for the real thing rather than insincere lite version.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited October 2018

    https://twitter.com/HKesvani/status/1047492918750183424

    Can't imagine the headlines if this was Labour.

    Also really don't understand the far right hang up regarding communism/marxism still, its useful because it makes a mockery of the far right support Corbyn smear that has come up now and again but on a practical level surely the modern day far right would be better off tactically concentrating their fire elsewhere, I don't think we will fight the commies is the rallying call it was in 30's Germany as the threat really isn't there like it was.

    You're flogging a dead horse. Come up with some examples of Theresa May or other cabinet ministers endorsing anti-Semitic stuff as Corbyn has and you might have a point.
    Come up with examples of Corbyn sending out go home vans and enthusiastically pursuing a hostile environment to the windrush generation and you might have a point.
    LOL! Talk about changing the subject because you've completely lost the argument!
    Racism was the subject wasn't it?

    Ohh wait that was right wing racism so somehow doesn't count, silly me I forgot.

    Well back to shifting books on cultural marxism in between discussions about why the left are so racist...
    No, the subject was your absurd attempt to claim that the media give a free pass to Conservatives on anti-Semitism in contrast to their coverage of Labour. You spend an awful lot of time trying (without success) to find examples to support your whataboutery, but as I pointed out, there's a very good reason for the difference in coverage: the fact that the anti-Semitism in Labour goes right to the top of the party, but is all but non-existent in the Conservative Party except in some very obscure fringes.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    A bit more detail on Nissan and why Brexit is potentially so disastrous. Forget dancing queens and the like. This is what matters.

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/oct/04/will-nissan-stay-once-britain-leaves-sunderland-brexit-business-dilemma
  • A bit more detail on Nissan and why Brexit is potentially so disastrous. Forget dancing queens and the like. This is what matters.

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/oct/04/will-nissan-stay-once-britain-leaves-sunderland-brexit-business-dilemma

    And this is why TM will not sell out on 'just in time' manufacturing despite demands from ERG and Boris
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,122

    Meanwhile, the Northern Irish gay cakes decision is to be delivered by the Supreme Court next Wednesday. After that it should be acte éclair.

    Unless they muffin it up!
  • TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    A major problem with electric cars is that, in two important ways, they're a *worse* technology: they have less range than IC cars, and 'refuelling' them takes many times longer. These are two factors that matter to many drivers.

    With an EV you can refuel at home, that's a significant advantage over IC.

    I go everywhere by bike as my three cars (E36 M3 Touring and 2 x 911) are more or less permanently in bits.
    Do you feel the need, the need for...
    When I was stationed at NAS Oceana we used to have "safety days" with no flying So we spent them driving our cars whichever direction was downwind on 5R/23L. I inadvertently got my M3 (a different one) into a full on sanpatsu drift and exited the runway with no authority in the yaw axis at 125mph and ripped every control arm and consequently all four wheels out of the subframes. It cost me $8k to get it fixed and $8k was a lot of fucking money in 1999. So in answer to your question: yes.

    Sanpatsu means free motion.

    But it's not clear if that applies to the car or the driver.
  • Any idea why Australia have done it and we haven't?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,122
    John_M said:

    This talk about cars is stressful. I've promised my other half that we'll buy a car this month. I'm still struggling to decide what I might buy, and the more guidance I get the more confused I get.

    And that is why car sales are plummeting.

    It is so much more complicated today than ever before. I heard someone on the radio say they ran over their charging lead and it cost £800 for a new one. I have no idea how true that is but it is a lot of money just to be able to charge your car
    I like the concept of 'the tyranny of choice'. Even in my own field (computers), there are a plethora of choices which made selecting the parts for my current PC a chore rather than a pleasure.
    Bring back the trabant!
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    edited October 2018

    LOL! Talk about changing the subject because you've completely lost the argument!
    Racism was the subject wasn't it?

    Ohh wait that was right wing racism so somehow doesn't count, silly me I forgot.

    Well back to shifting books on cultural marxism in between discussions about why the left are so racist...
    No, the subject was your absurd attempt to claim that the media give a free pass to Conservatives on anti-Semitism in contrast to their coverage of Labour. You spend awful lot of time trying (without success) to find examples to support your whataboutery, but as I pointed out, there's a very good reason for the difference in coverage: the fact that the anti-Semitism in Labour goes right to the top of the party, but is all but non-existent in the Conservative Party except in some very obscure fringes.
    Really? and when was this subject officially set? did you decide the subject?

    I was the one that brought it up, simply pointing out how racism from the Tories isn't reported as strongly. which certainly links into the other racist stuff I brought up in response to your defence of it, With the Conservatives racism has been government policy.

    Also I report very few incidents here, you are either getting me confused with someone else or are just a little touchy about criticisms of the right.

    The racism goes to the very top of the Conservative party. it was May who sent out the go home vans, it was Boris who proudly published an article attacking Muslims, it was May who enthusiastically pursued the hostile environment to the Windrush generation. It was also May leading the Conservatives when they readmitted Anne Marie Morris and who still hasn't punished Boris for his comments. It was Cameron leading the party when they had the Islamophobic London Election campaign. There is a good reason the Muslim vote dropped away from the Tories.

    If Labour and Corbyn had gone half as far as the Tories the papers really would go crazy. It might be a comfortable morality blanket to imagine your opponents as the bad guys and yourself as the good guys but anyone who denies the blatant racism around the Conservative party whilst denouncing Labour as racist has let partisan feelings overtake logic.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900


    Sanpatsu means free motion.

    But it's not clear if that applies to the car or the driver.


    Given the speeds mentioned, and the fact the driver is here to tell us about it, we can probably rule out the latter :-)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,838

    Nigelb said:

    Mrs C, that's a legitimate point to raise, as is the consideration of manufacture. If a car runs greenly per mile, but causes huge woe to be emitted in manufacture, does it get a pass?

    This is complicated by how many miles you expect the car to be driven for. Most diesel engines will last 250,000 miles fine, but many cars aren't driven enough each year to reach that before being scrapped. I expect you would need to replace the battery in an electric vehicle several times before you reached 250,000 miles - but then if the battery is recycled that also changes the equation...
    Surprisingly not.
    There a quite a few fleet vehicle Teslas in LA which have comfortably exceeded 300K miles.

    There's some degradation, but manageable. Also the servicing requirements are substantially less.
    Oh, surprising. I have extrapolated from my experience with mobile device batteries to worry about battery degradation, but a quick Google does seem to indicate it's not a big deal with electric car batteries.

    Thanks for pointing that out.
    Perhaps the larger size of a car battery helps out ? Welcome news for EVs to be fair.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517

    Nigelb said:

    Mrs C, that's a legitimate point to raise, as is the consideration of manufacture. If a car runs greenly per mile, but causes huge woe to be emitted in manufacture, does it get a pass?

    This is complicated by how many miles you expect the car to be driven for. Most diesel engines will last 250,000 miles fine, but many cars aren't driven enough each year to reach that before being scrapped. I expect you would need to replace the battery in an electric vehicle several times before you reached 250,000 miles - but then if the battery is recycled that also changes the equation...
    Surprisingly not.
    There a quite a few fleet vehicle Teslas in LA which have comfortably exceeded 300K miles.

    There's some degradation, but manageable. Also the servicing requirements are substantially less.
    Oh, surprising. I have extrapolated from my experience with mobile device batteries to worry about battery degradation, but a quick Google does seem to indicate it's not a big deal with electric car batteries.

    Thanks for pointing that out.
    AIUI it's all down to brilliant software engineers rather than the batteries themselves. ;) Many modern battery chemistries perform best if not fully charged or fully discharged, so the software within the chargers tries to ensure that you never go into 'dangerous' areas. This helps increase battery life substantially.

    I also believe this extra range can be unlocked in software, allowing you to utterly deplete the battery - at a future cost.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,784
    edited October 2018
    John_M said:

    This talk about cars is stressful. I've promised my other half that we'll buy a car this month. I'm still struggling to decide what I might buy, and the more guidance I get the more confused I get.

    And that is why car sales are plummeting.

    It is so much more complicated today than ever before. I heard someone on the radio say they ran over their charging lead and it cost £800 for a new one. I have no idea how true that is but it is a lot of money just to be able to charge your car
    I like the concept of 'the tyranny of choice'. Even in my own field (computers), there are a plethora of choices which made selecting the parts for my current PC a chore rather than a pleasure.
    At least with a car you still essentially know WHAT you are wanting to buy. I probably shouldn't admit to this as an IT worker, but I really hate the whole media device and delivery market in which everything claims to do everything and there are 100 ways of combining devices and delivery methods to get the services you require, all of which may change again in 3 years time. Here you can barely work out what you want let alone which one.

    Probably explains why our main TV at home is still a 24" dumb CRT TV with an old set top box and games console attached, and our search for a "small" TV for the kitchen is stymied by the fact that it would almost certainly be bigger than the main TV!

    And that's before we get to the everything does everything schtick in IT hardware, and even if a bit of kit doesn't do everything one can overlay some everything does everything, here, there and everywhere software product or integration tool.

    Heath Robinson would be permanently orgasmic in our times.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,706
    If she agrees the Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period with the EU May could stay Tory leader and PM for years post Brexit
  • A bit more detail on Nissan and why Brexit is potentially so disastrous. Forget dancing queens and the like. This is what matters.

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/oct/04/will-nissan-stay-once-britain-leaves-sunderland-brexit-business-dilemma


    There won't be a need for a Nissan factory in the UK post Brexit because we will be able to import Nissans from Japan tariff free. Japan is also a left hand drive country like us. Also we should be able to export Jaguars to Japan tariff free.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Who’s going to tell her that it’s because of the EU VAT legislation that it can’t be done in the U.K.?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038
    This thread on a major academic journal paper hoax is simply incredible.

    e.g. A journal paper proposing to chain white students up during class so they can experience reparation.


    https://twitter.com/Yascha_Mounk/status/1047334806600777728

  • Andrew said:


    Sanpatsu means free motion.

    But it's not clear if that applies to the car or the driver.


    Given the speeds mentioned, and the fact the driver is here to tell us about it, we can probably rule out the latter :-)
    The driver may wear brown trousers.
  • On cars, we've very recently bought an ex-Demo Hyundai Ioniq. The Hybrid ("self-charging") version as opposed to the plug-in hybrid or EV versions. Ex demo as so often was a mega discount over new (19%) despite the car being 6 months old with 1,600 miles on it and still smelling new.

    The new technology is fun - loaded the car with the family and luggage and drove to Essex and back last weekend. The car steers itself, accelerates and brakes itself, is very comfortable and returned 68mpg (why can't we have Miles per Litre...?)

    As for EVs they are coming and you won't stop them. Once you have had an electric motor as your drive train any gearbox feels positively archaic - the Mini we traded in against the Ioniq will be my final manual gearbox car. Long range is now affordable - Hyundai Kona does 300 miles, the Kia Niro will match it - and the charging network will roll out now that BP own Chargemaster. So give it a few years and electric will be a volume option.
  • archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612

    A bit more detail on Nissan and why Brexit is potentially so disastrous. Forget dancing queens and the like. This is what matters.

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/oct/04/will-nissan-stay-once-britain-leaves-sunderland-brexit-business-dilemma

    And this is why TM will not sell out on 'just in time' manufacturing despite demands from ERG and Boris
    She will just sell out on every red line she ever had. No problem.

    Her conference ‘performance’ is likely to make things worse for her. TM and her little No 10 gang will be puffing out their chests telling themselves they have slain the evil Boris and the Leavers. Which it seems is making her reckless to give away yet more concessions to the EU. She has always lacked judgement. She got herself into this mess by throwing in the backstop pledge in December because she thought she was on a roll. She is now going to do the same again. But what she is proposing is desperate and foolish. She will run back into reality soon.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    RoyalBlue said:

    Roger said:

    OT...ish.

    As I wondered around Nice airport yesterday there was a flight from Rome and another from Liverpool. The difference in size would have to be measured in percentages of tons. I fear that in three or four years time when we assume full European Pariah status they will put a surcharge on us for weight followed by a further one for lack of dress sense

    A lot of this is explained by the fact that far fewer Italians travel abroad and those that do tend to be younger or of relatively high social status. If you restricted opportunities for Brits to travel abroad to those two groups, you’d find they look a lot more like the Italians you saw yesterday.

    Hmm, not so.

    Percentage of obese over-15 year olds:

    Italy 9.8%, UK 26.9%

    Admittedly 2015 figures, but I don't think the Italians will have caught up in three years!

    https://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/Obesity-Update-2017.pdf
    What a depressing statistic. We need less sympathy and more truth-telling on this topic.

    Sugar taxes are a good start too.
    RoyalBlue said:

    Roger said:

    OT...ish.

    As I wondered around Nice airport yesterday there was a flight from Rome and another from Liverpool. The difference in size would have to be measured in percentages of tons. I fear that in three or four years time when we assume full European Pariah status they will put a surcharge on us for weight followed by a further one for lack of dress sense

    A lot of this is explained by the fact that far fewer Italians travel abroad and those that do tend to be younger or of relatively high social status. If you restricted opportunities for Brits to travel abroad to those two groups, you’d find they look a lot more like the Italians you saw yesterday.

    Hmm, not so.

    Percentage of obese over-15 year olds:

    Italy 9.8%, UK 26.9%

    Admittedly 2015 figures, but I don't think the Italians will have caught up in three years!

    https://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/Obesity-Update-2017.pdf
    What a depressing statistic. We need less sympathy and more truth-telling on this topic.

    Sugar taxes are a good start too.
    The truth-telling should start with "forget about exercise, it's all about diet"
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,706
    edited October 2018

    Let me make a predicition / comment. If May agrees an all UK backstop with the EU that is time limited (to a reasonable degree), or can be ended by the UK unilaterally, then that would be an acceptable outcome. I think the ERG might even support the withdrawal agreement on the basis they can ditch her and fix the trading relationship later. Remember this is what she promised her MPs in July.

    If May (as it appears she is doing) agrees a permanent backstop that cannot ended without the consent of the EU, she will trigger a leadership challenge and will lose. The idea that you can commit the UK to the control of a foreign power with no way out is unthinkable. She will play right into the ERGs hands - this is an easy thing to explain to the public and she will have no support when it is realised what she has done.

    It may be a small difference, but it is crucial.

    About 120 Tory MPs backed Leave and around 100 are connected to the ERG, even if they all vote against her in a no confidence vote she will survive even with a permanent backstop given there are 318 Tory MPs in total and the alternative is No Deal.

    She will then be safe for a year ie after Brexit has been completed
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Borough, those attacking the excellent work done by the three scholars are fantastically demented. Apparently, some are upset not by the papers but by the evil, nasty deceit.

    It's alarming when academic journals can't distinguish between satire and scholarship.
  • Sandpit said:

    Who’s going to tell her that it’s because of the EU VAT legislation that it can’t be done in the U.K.?
    Quite a few people have... She's had to admit the EU isn't 100% right, first chink in the armour!

    The Leave version of WilliamGlenn would interpret that as a call for hard Brexit

    https://twitter.com/thatginamiller/status/1047759809297174529
  • This thread on a major academic journal paper hoax is simply incredible.

    e.g. A journal paper proposing to chain white students up during class so they can experience reparation.


    https://twitter.com/Yascha_Mounk/status/1047334806600777728

    Part of me thinks it is so outrageous that maybe it's a double hoax, with the people buying it being the anti PC brigade!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    https://twitter.com/HKesvani/status/1047492918750183424

    Can't imagine the headlines if this was Labour.

    Also really don't understand the far right hang up regarding communism/marxism still, its useful because it makes a mockery of the far right support Corbyn smear that has come up now and again but on a practical level surely the modern day far right would be better off tactically concentrating their fire elsewhere, I don't think we will fight the commies is the rallying call it was in 30's Germany as the threat really isn't there like it was.

    You're flogging a dead horse. Come up with some examples of Theresa May or other cabinet ministers endorsing anti-Semitic stuff as Corbyn has and you might have a point.
    Come up with examples of Corbyn sending out go home vans and enthusiastically pursuing a hostile environment to the windrush generation and you might have a point.
    Windrush generation Brits refusal of re-entry to Britain started under Labour - something the Conservatives are putting right.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Decline of institutions' moral standards threatens EU

    https://euobserver.com/opinion/143013
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,879
    I agree with OGH that the reason JC's ratings have fallen is that he has been getting a lot of negative press of late. But in an election time, other issues will be salient. As we have seen, voters quite like Mr Corbyn's policies.

    Many won't like me saying it, but there is an anti-Corbyn bias in much of the media that is steadily eroding his ratings.

    But during election time this doesn't matter as much because a) he is able to directly reach voters through social media and b) set the agenda to a much greater extent through policy announcements and campaigning c) voters are paying more attention to politics.
  • RoyalBlue said:

    Roger said:

    OT...ish.

    As I wondered around Nice airport yesterday there was a flight from Rome and another from Liverpool. The difference in size would have to be measured in percentages of tons. I fear that in three or four years time when we assume full European Pariah status they will put a surcharge on us for weight followed by a further one for lack of dress sense

    A lot of this is explained by the fact that far fewer Italians travel abroad and those that do tend to be younger or of relatively high social status. If you restricted opportunities for Brits to travel abroad to those two groups, you’d find they look a lot more like the Italians you saw yesterday.

    Hmm, not so.

    Percentage of obese over-15 year olds:

    Italy 9.8%, UK 26.9%

    Admittedly 2015 figures, but I don't think the Italians will have caught up in three years!

    https://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/Obesity-Update-2017.pdf
    What a depressing statistic. We need less sympathy and more truth-telling on this topic.

    Sugar taxes are a good start too.
    RoyalBlue said:

    Roger said:

    OT...ish.

    As I wondered around Nice airport yesterday there was a flight from Rome and another from Liverpool. The difference in size would have to be measured in percentages of tons. I fear that in three or four years time when we assume full European Pariah status they will put a surcharge on us for weight followed by a further one for lack of dress sense

    A lot of this is explained by the fact that far fewer Italians travel abroad and those that do tend to be younger or of relatively high social status. If you restricted opportunities for Brits to travel abroad to those two groups, you’d find they look a lot more like the Italians you saw yesterday.

    Hmm, not so.

    Percentage of obese over-15 year olds:

    Italy 9.8%, UK 26.9%

    Admittedly 2015 figures, but I don't think the Italians will have caught up in three years!

    https://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/Obesity-Update-2017.pdf
    What a depressing statistic. We need less sympathy and more truth-telling on this topic.

    Sugar taxes are a good start too.
    The truth-telling should start with "forget about exercise, it's all about diet"
    Or not even diet. It's all about how much you eat.
  • Any idea why Australia have done it and we haven't?
    No but Hammond needs to do it in his Autumn statement
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    https://twitter.com/HKesvani/status/1047492918750183424

    Can't imagine the headlines if this was Labour.

    Also really don't understand the far right hang up regarding communism/marxism still, its useful because it makes a mockery of the far right support Corbyn smear that has come up now and again but on a practical level surely the modern day far right would be better off tactically concentrating their fire elsewhere, I don't think we will fight the commies is the rallying call it was in 30's Germany as the threat really isn't there like it was.

    You're flogging a dead horse. Come up with some examples of Theresa May or other cabinet ministers endorsing anti-Semitic stuff as Corbyn has and you might have a point.
    Come up with examples of Corbyn sending out go home vans and enthusiastically pursuing a hostile environment to the windrush generation and you might have a point.
    Windrush generation Brits refusal of re-entry to Britain started under Labour - something the Conservatives are putting right.
    As mentioned in another post I make no apologies for Labour's own attempt to appeal to populist anti immigration rhetoric. Conservatives happily took on the mantle and pursued the policy much more enthusiastically until the story became a series of bad headlines and the government was forced to change the policy.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    edited October 2018

    DavidL said:

    But a no deal Brexit would not benefit France. They are no more ready for that than we are. Of course it would probably disbenefit us more but the implications for them would be significant, as they seem to be waking up too.
    France warned on Wednesday that it would prefer Britain to crash out of Europe without a deal rather than accept a compromise that undermined the integrity of the European Union.

    The stark warning from Nathalie Loiseau, the country’s Europe minister, came as both sides prepared for a crucial fortnight of negotiation following the close of the Conservative party conference.

    “No deal would be better than a bad deal,” Ms Loiseau told a French radio station, turning familiar Brexiteers’ own mantra back on the UK, before warning that “time is running out” for Theresa May to strike a deal with Brussels.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/03/no-deal-brexit-better-bad-deal-us-says-macron-minister/
    When will the Maybot understand the phrase "no cherry picking"?

    The compromise that is likely to upset the fewest number of people and be acceptable to the EU would be FM membership in a "Norway-style" deal, with any Customs border in the Irish Sea. The DUP's bluff needs to be called.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    Any idea why Australia have done it and we haven't?
    No but Hammond needs to do it in his Autumn statement
    We couldn't previously because of the EU laws relating to VAT (basically once an item is included it cannot be excluded).
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    RoyalBlue said:

    Roger said:

    OT...ish.

    As I wondered around Nice airport yesterday there was a flight from Rome and another from Liverpool. The difference in size would have to be measured in percentages of tons. I fear that in three or four years time when we assume full European Pariah status they will put a surcharge on us for weight followed by a further one for lack of dress sense

    A lot of this is explained by the fact that far fewer Italians travel abroad and those that do tend to be younger or of relatively high social status. If you restricted opportunities for Brits to travel abroad to those two groups, you’d find they look a lot more like the Italians you saw yesterday.

    Hmm, not so.

    Percentage of obese over-15 year olds:

    Italy 9.8%, UK 26.9%

    Admittedly 2015 figures, but I don't think the Italians will have caught up in three years!

    https://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/Obesity-Update-2017.pdf
    What a depressing statistic. We need less sympathy and more truth-telling on this topic.

    Sugar taxes are a good start too.
    RoyalBlue said:

    Roger said:

    OT...ish.

    As I wondered around Nice airport yesterday there was a flight from Rome and another from Liverpool. The difference in size would have to be measured in percentages of tons. I fear that in three or four years time when we assume full European Pariah status they will put a surcharge on us for weight followed by a further one for lack of dress sense

    A lot of this is explained by the fact that far fewer Italians travel abroad and those that do tend to be younger or of relatively high social status. If you restricted opportunities for Brits to travel abroad to those two groups, you’d find they look a lot more like the Italians you saw yesterday.

    Hmm, not so.

    Percentage of obese over-15 year olds:

    Italy 9.8%, UK 26.9%

    Admittedly 2015 figures, but I don't think the Italians will have caught up in three years!

    https://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/Obesity-Update-2017.pdf
    What a depressing statistic. We need less sympathy and more truth-telling on this topic.

    Sugar taxes are a good start too.
    The truth-telling should start with "forget about exercise, it's all about diet"
    Or not even diet. It's all about how much you eat.
    Doesn't that fall under the category of diet?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,706
    daodao said:

    DavidL said:

    But a no deal Brexit would not benefit France. They are no more ready for that than we are. Of course it would probably disbenefit us more but the implications for them would be significant, as they seem to be waking up too.
    France warned on Wednesday that it would prefer Britain to crash out of Europe without a deal rather than accept a compromise that undermined the integrity of the European Union.

    The stark warning from Nathalie Loiseau, the country’s Europe minister, came as both sides prepared for a crucial fortnight of negotiation following the close of the Conservative party conference.

    “No deal would be better than a bad deal,” Ms Loiseau told a French radio station, turning familiar Brexiteers’ own mantra back on the UK, before warning that “time is running out” for Theresa May to strike a deal with Brussels.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/03/no-deal-brexit-better-bad-deal-us-says-macron-minister/
    When will the Maybot understand the phrase "no cherry picking"?

    The compromise that is likely to upset the fewest number of people and be acceptable to the EU would be FM membership in a "Norway-style" deal, with any Customs border in the Irish Sea. The DUP's bluff needs to be called.
    A Norway style deal means staying in the SM anyway and FoM.

    What you actually mean is a Canada-style deal with a Customs border in the Irish Sea
  • A bit more detail on Nissan and why Brexit is potentially so disastrous. Forget dancing queens and the like. This is what matters.

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/oct/04/will-nissan-stay-once-britain-leaves-sunderland-brexit-business-dilemma

    And this is why TM will not sell out on 'just in time' manufacturing despite demands from ERG and Boris
    She will just sell out on every red line she ever had. No problem.

    Her conference ‘performance’ is likely to make things worse for her. TM and her little No 10 gang will be puffing out their chests telling themselves they have slain the evil Boris and the Leavers. Which it seems is making her reckless to give away yet more concessions to the EU. She has always lacked judgement. She got herself into this mess by throwing in the backstop pledge in December because she thought she was on a roll. She is now going to do the same again. But what she is proposing is desperate and foolish. She will run back into reality soon.
    She is dealing with reality and seeking the middle ground consensus.

    It may not be your brexit but as long as we leave in some form I have no problem with it
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    rkrkrk said:

    I agree with OGH that the reason JC's ratings have fallen is that he has been getting a lot of negative press of late. But in an election time, other issues will be salient. As we have seen, voters quite like Mr Corbyn's policies.

    Many won't like me saying it, but there is an anti-Corbyn bias in much of the media that is steadily eroding his ratings.

    But during election time this doesn't matter as much because a) he is able to directly reach voters through social media and b) set the agenda to a much greater extent through policy announcements and campaigning c) voters are paying more attention to politics.

    Whether you think the media is biased against Corbyn or not he certainly gets more negative press than is given to the Tories. Also another important point is the broadcast neutrality rules kick in, meaning balanced coverage of Labour, our campaigning and policies which I think helped massively last time.

    For all the criticisms on the left of the BBC and the rest if the UK had something like Fox news in America unrestricted around election time the Conservatives probably would have won a landslide.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,706

    DavidL said:

    But a no deal Brexit would not benefit France. They are no more ready for that than we are. Of course it would probably disbenefit us more but the implications for them would be significant, as they seem to be waking up too.
    France warned on Wednesday that it would prefer Britain to crash out of Europe without a deal rather than accept a compromise that undermined the integrity of the European Union.

    The stark warning from Nathalie Loiseau, the country’s Europe minister, came as both sides prepared for a crucial fortnight of negotiation following the close of the Conservative party conference.

    “No deal would be better than a bad deal,” Ms Loiseau told a French radio station, turning familiar Brexiteers’ own mantra back on the UK, before warning that “time is running out” for Theresa May to strike a deal with Brussels.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/03/no-deal-brexit-better-bad-deal-us-says-macron-minister/
    When we say 'France warned' can we please be clear that means 'The Macron and En Marche Government warned' the likes of National Rally and Debout pour la Republique and even some Les Republicains are more sympathetic to Brexit and want a better deal for Britain
  • eek said:

    Any idea why Australia have done it and we haven't?
    No but Hammond needs to do it in his Autumn statement
    We couldn't previously because of the EU laws relating to VAT (basically once an item is included it cannot be excluded).
    Maybe an opportunity to point out he wants to do this but the EU stops it but we will introduce it as soon as we are free of the EU
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    daodao said:

    DavidL said:

    But a no deal Brexit would not benefit France. They are no more ready for that than we are. Of course it would probably disbenefit us more but the implications for them would be significant, as they seem to be waking up too.
    France warned on Wednesday that it would prefer Britain to crash out of Europe without a deal rather than accept a compromise that undermined the integrity of the European Union.

    The stark warning from Nathalie Loiseau, the country’s Europe minister, came as both sides prepared for a crucial fortnight of negotiation following the close of the Conservative party conference.

    “No deal would be better than a bad deal,” Ms Loiseau told a French radio station, turning familiar Brexiteers’ own mantra back on the UK, before warning that “time is running out” for Theresa May to strike a deal with Brussels.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/03/no-deal-brexit-better-bad-deal-us-says-macron-minister/
    The compromise that is likely to upset the fewest number of people and be acceptable to the EU would be FM membership in a "Norway-style" deal, with any Customs border in the Irish Sea. The DUP's bluff needs to be called.
    That would mean continued FoM - one (possibly the only one) of Mrs May's red lines that Leave voters really care about.....given the recent announcements from May & Javid, do you really think that's likely?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,706

    rkrkrk said:

    I agree with OGH that the reason JC's ratings have fallen is that he has been getting a lot of negative press of late. But in an election time, other issues will be salient. As we have seen, voters quite like Mr Corbyn's policies.

    Many won't like me saying it, but there is an anti-Corbyn bias in much of the media that is steadily eroding his ratings.

    But during election time this doesn't matter as much because a) he is able to directly reach voters through social media and b) set the agenda to a much greater extent through policy announcements and campaigning c) voters are paying more attention to politics.

    Whether you think the media is biased against Corbyn or not he certainly gets more negative press than is given to the Tories. Also another important point is the broadcast neutrality rules kick in, meaning balanced coverage of Labour, our campaigning and policies which I think helped massively last time.

    For all the criticisms on the left of the BBC and the rest if the UK had something like Fox news in America unrestricted around election time the Conservatives probably would have won a landslide.
    Why? On that basis Romney would have won 2012 by a landslide given how pro Romney and anti Obama Fox was then
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,755
    rkrkrk said:

    I agree with OGH that the reason JC's ratings have fallen is that he has been getting a lot of negative press of late. But in an election time, other issues will be salient. As we have seen, voters quite like Mr Corbyn's policies.

    Many won't like me saying it, but there is an anti-Corbyn bias in much of the media that is steadily eroding his ratings.

    But during election time this doesn't matter as much because a) he is able to directly reach voters through social media and b) set the agenda to a much greater extent through policy announcements and campaigning c) voters are paying more attention to politics.

    Mr. Corbyn's own failings are what have eroded his poll ratings.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,753

    DavidL said:

    I have been asking about this week but no one seemed to have much of a clue about any application to appeal to the Supreme Court. That would have been in open court so it is likely word of it would have got around. Presumably the government decided not to, for whatever reason.
    Maybe interested in the ruling
    Crossed my mind too.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    But a no deal Brexit would not benefit France. They are no more ready for that than we are. Of course it would probably disbenefit us more but the implications for them would be significant, as they seem to be waking up too.
    France warned on Wednesday that it would prefer Britain to crash out of Europe without a deal rather than accept a compromise that undermined the integrity of the European Union.

    The stark warning from Nathalie Loiseau, the country’s Europe minister, came as both sides prepared for a crucial fortnight of negotiation following the close of the Conservative party conference.

    “No deal would be better than a bad deal,” Ms Loiseau told a French radio station, turning familiar Brexiteers’ own mantra back on the UK, before warning that “time is running out” for Theresa May to strike a deal with Brussels.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/03/no-deal-brexit-better-bad-deal-us-says-macron-minister/
    When we say 'France warned' can we please be clear that means 'The Macron and En Marche Government warned' the likes of National Rally and Debout pour la Republique and even some Les Republicains are more sympathetic to Brexit and want a better deal for Britain
    Macron is the current dictator of France - what he says, goes, unless the Reichskanzlerin disagrees.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,049
    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    But a no deal Brexit would not benefit France. They are no more ready for that than we are. Of course it would probably disbenefit us more but the implications for them would be significant, as they seem to be waking up too.
    France warned on Wednesday that it would prefer Britain to crash out of Europe without a deal rather than accept a compromise that undermined the integrity of the European Union.

    The stark warning from Nathalie Loiseau, the country’s Europe minister, came as both sides prepared for a crucial fortnight of negotiation following the close of the Conservative party conference.

    “No deal would be better than a bad deal,” Ms Loiseau told a French radio station, turning familiar Brexiteers’ own mantra back on the UK, before warning that “time is running out” for Theresa May to strike a deal with Brussels.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/03/no-deal-brexit-better-bad-deal-us-says-macron-minister/
    When we say 'France warned' can we please be clear that means 'The Macron and En Marche Government warned' the likes of National Rally and Debout pour la Republique and even some Les Republicains are more sympathetic to Brexit and want a better deal for Britain
    They are not in government, nor likely to be in the next few years, so it matters only what En Marche have in mind.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    HYUFD said:

    rkrkrk said:

    I agree with OGH that the reason JC's ratings have fallen is that he has been getting a lot of negative press of late. But in an election time, other issues will be salient. As we have seen, voters quite like Mr Corbyn's policies.

    Many won't like me saying it, but there is an anti-Corbyn bias in much of the media that is steadily eroding his ratings.

    But during election time this doesn't matter as much because a) he is able to directly reach voters through social media and b) set the agenda to a much greater extent through policy announcements and campaigning c) voters are paying more attention to politics.

    Whether you think the media is biased against Corbyn or not he certainly gets more negative press than is given to the Tories. Also another important point is the broadcast neutrality rules kick in, meaning balanced coverage of Labour, our campaigning and policies which I think helped massively last time.

    For all the criticisms on the left of the BBC and the rest if the UK had something like Fox news in America unrestricted around election time the Conservatives probably would have won a landslide.
    Why? On that basis Romney would have won 2012 by a landslide given how pro Romney and anti Obama Fox was then
    Only if we assume every other variable outside of fox news is exactly the same or even pretty similar, which isn't really true.

    I was keeping the British situation but bringing in Fox news to replace something like the BBC, not really sure that fully translates to every candidate Fox backs in America should have exactly the same result as this hypothetical BBC Fox news swap situation.
  • archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612

    A bit more detail on Nissan and why Brexit is potentially so disastrous. Forget dancing queens and the like. This is what matters.

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/oct/04/will-nissan-stay-once-britain-leaves-sunderland-brexit-business-dilemma

    And this is why TM will not sell out on 'just in time' manufacturing despite demands from ERG and Boris
    She will just sell out on every red line she ever had. No problem.

    Her conference ‘performance’ is likely to make things worse for her. TM and her little No 10 gang will be puffing out their chests telling themselves they have slain the evil Boris and the Leavers. Which it seems is making her reckless to give away yet more concessions to the EU. She has always lacked judgement. She got herself into this mess by throwing in the backstop pledge in December because she thought she was on a roll. She is now going to do the same again. But what she is proposing is desperate and foolish. She will run back into reality soon.
    She is dealing with reality and seeking the middle ground consensus.

    It may not be your brexit but as long as we leave in some form I have no problem with it
    It is not a middle ground concessus. A consensus is something people agree with. You described Chequers as a consensus but nobody supported it. Nobody will support something that is even worse.

    This is just the desperate gamble of a woman who thinks her survival as PM is more important than the future of the nation. It is Ok to say we should remain, or support the EEA. But handing over the ability of the nation to make democratic decisions in the future is the act of a despot.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    rkrkrk said:

    I agree with OGH that the reason JC's ratings have fallen is that he has been getting a lot of negative press of late. But in an election time, other issues will be salient. As we have seen, voters quite like Mr Corbyn's policies.

    Many won't like me saying it, but there is an anti-Corbyn bias in much of the media that is steadily eroding his ratings.

    But during election time this doesn't matter as much because a) he is able to directly reach voters through social media and b) set the agenda to a much greater extent through policy announcements and campaigning c) voters are paying more attention to politics.

    Whether you think the media is biased against Corbyn or not he certainly gets more negative press than is given to the Tories. Also another important point is the broadcast neutrality rules kick in, meaning balanced coverage of Labour, our campaigning and policies which I think helped massively last time.

    For all the criticisms on the left of the BBC and the rest if the UK had something like Fox news in America unrestricted around election time the Conservatives probably would have won a landslide.
    I have tactically voted LAB in Bedford at the last two elections and saw the party gain the seat last year by a narrow majority. Under the new boundaries the margin between LAB & CON is projected at just nine.

    Next time I can assure you that my vote will not go to LAB if Corbyn is still leader whatever the TV coverage. His whole handling of the antisemitism issue has failed to convince me that he is not a racist.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    rkrkrk said:

    I agree with OGH that the reason JC's ratings have fallen is that he has been getting a lot of negative press of late. But in an election time, other issues will be salient. As we have seen, voters quite like Mr Corbyn's policies.

    Many won't like me saying it, but there is an anti-Corbyn bias in much of the media that is steadily eroding his ratings.

    But during election time this doesn't matter as much because a) he is able to directly reach voters through social media and b) set the agenda to a much greater extent through policy announcements and campaigning c) voters are paying more attention to politics.

    Whether you think the media is biased against Corbyn or not he certainly gets more negative press than is given to the Tories. Also another important point is the broadcast neutrality rules kick in, meaning balanced coverage of Labour, our campaigning and policies which I think helped massively last time.

    For all the criticisms on the left of the BBC and the rest if the UK had something like Fox news in America unrestricted around election time the Conservatives probably would have won a landslide.
    I don't know whether it's necessarily true that TV news gives Corbyn more negative coverage than May - but the crucial difference is that he gets hardly any positive coverage to balance it out, whereas May still gets a fair bit. She gets soft-soap Panorama specials showing her meeting important people and looking on top of her game, and she gets coverage for any speech she makes on things like the NHS or housebuilding. Whereas Corbyn, right now, doesn't get that; all the public hear about is when he's getting criticised by his own MPs. But, as you say, the broadcasters are legally banned from giving such unbalanced coverage as soon as an election starts.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,755
    edited October 2018

    LOL! Talk about changing the subject because you've completely lost the argument!
    Racism was the subject wasn't it?

    Ohh wait that was right wing racism so somehow doesn't count, silly me I forgot.

    Well back to shifting books on cultural marxism in between discussions about why the left are so racist...
    No, es.
    Really? and when was this subject officially set? did you decide the subject?

    I was the one that brought it up, simply pointing out how racism from the Tories isn't reported as strongly. which certainly links into the other racist stuff I brought up in response to your defence of it, With the Conservatives racism has been government policy.

    Also I report very few incidents here, you are either getting me confused with someone else or are just a little touchy about criticisms of the right.

    The racism goes to the very top of the Conservative party. it was May who sent out the go home vans, it was Boris who proudly published an article attacking Muslims, it was May who enthusiastically pursued the hostile environment to the Windrush generation. It was also May leading the Conservatives when they readmitted Anne Marie Morris and who still hasn't punished Boris for his comments. It was Cameron leading the party when they had the Islamophobic London Election campaign. There is a good reason the Muslim vote dropped away from the Tories.

    If Labour and Corbyn had gone half as far as the Tories the papers really would go crazy. It might be a comfortable morality blanket to imagine your opponents as the bad guys and yourself as the good guys but anyone who denies the blatant racism around the Conservative party whilst denouncing Labour as racist has let partisan feelings overtake logic.
    There's no point blaming the media for the Labour leadership's own failings. Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, have spent their political careers championing obnoxious causes, and working with obnoxious people, and they own their own records.

    And, in my lifetime, the media have often been absolutely vicious towards the Conservatives.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    HYUFD said:

    daodao said:

    DavidL said:

    But a no deal Brexit would not benefit France. They are no more ready for that than we are. Of course it would probably disbenefit us more but the implications for them would be significant, as they seem to be waking up too.
    France warned on Wednesday that it would prefer Britain to crash out of Europe without a deal rather than accept a compromise that undermined the integrity of the European Union.

    The stark warning from Nathalie Loiseau, the country’s Europe minister, came as both sides prepared for a crucial fortnight of negotiation following the close of the Conservative party conference.

    “No deal would be better than a bad deal,” Ms Loiseau told a French radio station, turning familiar Brexiteers’ own mantra back on the UK, before warning that “time is running out” for Theresa May to strike a deal with Brussels.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/03/no-deal-brexit-better-bad-deal-us-says-macron-minister/
    When will the Maybot understand the phrase "no cherry picking"?

    The compromise that is likely to upset the fewest number of people and be acceptable to the EU would be FM membership in a "Norway-style" deal, with any Customs border in the Irish Sea. The DUP's bluff needs to be called.
    A Norway style deal means staying in the SM anyway and FoM.

    What you actually mean is a Canada-style deal with a Customs border in the Irish Sea
    No, I didn't - I meant remaining in the single market with FoM for workers, but with GB outside the Customs Union, which is Norway's situation. This would much more popular with Remainers and business than a Canada-style arrangement, although this is the other option.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Dura_Ace said:



    A major problem with electric cars is that, in two important ways, they're a *worse* technology: they have less range than IC cars, and 'refuelling' them takes many times longer. These are two factors that matter to many drivers.

    With an EV you can refuel at home, that's a significant advantage over IC.

    I go everywhere by bike as my three cars (E36 M3 Touring and 2 x 911) are more or less permanently in bits.
    Again, this shows the current electric-car demographic: many people will *not* be able to charge at home because (for instance) they have on-street parking or live in a tower block.

    I think you need to get better cars. Might I suggest a Honda Jazz? As reliable as f***k. ;)
    If your Honda Jazz is noisy and prone to leaking I’d suggest replacing it
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,706
    daodao said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    But a no deal Brexit would not benefit France. They are no more ready for that than we are. Of course it would probably disbenefit us more but the implications for them would be significant, as they seem to be waking up too.
    France warned on Wednesday that it would prefer Britain to crash out of Europe without a deal rather than accept a compromise that undermined the integrity of the European Union.

    The stark warning from Nathalie Loiseau, the country’s Europe minister, came as both sides prepared for a crucial fortnight of negotiation following the close of the Conservative party conference.

    “No deal would be better than a bad deal,” Ms Loiseau told a French radio station, turning familiar Brexiteers’ own mantra back on the UK, before warning that “time is running out” for Theresa May to strike a deal with Brussels.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/03/no-deal-brexit-better-bad-deal-us-says-macron-minister/
    When we say 'France warned' can we please be clear that means 'The Macron and En Marche Government warned' the likes of National Rally and Debout pour la Republique and even some Les Republicains are more sympathetic to Brexit and want a better deal for Britain
    Macron is the current dictator of France - what he says, goes, unless the Reichskanzlerin disagrees.
    Are other French parties banned? No
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,164

    rkrkrk said:

    I agree with OGH that the reason JC's ratings have fallen is that he has been getting a lot of negative press of late. But in an election time, other issues will be salient. As we have seen, voters quite like Mr Corbyn's policies.

    Many won't like me saying it, but there is an anti-Corbyn bias in much of the media that is steadily eroding his ratings.

    But during election time this doesn't matter as much because a) he is able to directly reach voters through social media and b) set the agenda to a much greater extent through policy announcements and campaigning c) voters are paying more attention to politics.

    Whether you think the media is biased against Corbyn or not he certainly gets more negative press than is given to the Tories. Also another important point is the broadcast neutrality rules kick in, meaning balanced coverage of Labour, our campaigning and policies which I think helped massively last time.

    For all the criticisms on the left of the BBC and the rest if the UK had something like Fox news in America unrestricted around election time the Conservatives probably would have won a landslide.
    I have tactically voted LAB in Bedford at the last two elections and saw the party gain the seat last year by a narrow majority. Under the new boundaries the margin between LAB & CON is projected at just nine.

    Next time I can assure you that my vote will not go to LAB if Corbyn is still leader whatever the TV coverage. His whole handling of the antisemitism issue has failed to convince me that he is not a racist.
    What information has come to light since last June that's changed your mind?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,706
    daodao said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    But a no deal Brexit would not benefit France. They are no more ready for that than we are. Of course it would probably disbenefit us more but the implications for them would be significant, as they seem to be waking up too.
    France warned on Wednesday that it would prefer Britain to crash out of Europe without a deal rather than accept a compromise that undermined the integrity of the European Union.

    The stark warning from Nathalie Loiseau, the country’s Europe minister, came as both sides prepared for a crucial fortnight of negotiation following the close of the Conservative party conference.

    “No deal would be better than a bad deal,” Ms Loiseau told a French radio station, turning familiar Brexiteers’ own mantra back on the UK, before warning that “time is running out” for Theresa May to strike a deal with Brussels.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/03/no-deal-brexit-better-bad-deal-us-says-macron-minister/
    When we say 'France warned' can we please be clear that means 'The Macron and En Marche Government warned' the likes of National Rally and Debout pour la Republique and even some Les Republicains are more sympathetic to Brexit and want a better deal for Britain
    Macron is the current dictator of France - what he says, goes, unless the Reichskanzlerin disagrees.
    Are other French parties banned? No
  • AllyPally_RobAllyPally_Rob Posts: 605
    edited October 2018
    "DUP would prefer no deal Brexit to 'border down Irish Sea', says Dodds"

    This is the whole ball game now folks.

    I think it's a question of how not if May throws the DUP under the bus here. They were always utterly unsuitable partners to rely on in government support, not just for the bind they have put May in on the backstop question, but for their 40+ years of regressive, sectarian history.

    Remember these are the same charlatans that wanted corporation tax harmonisation with Southern Ireland but now reject any solution on the border problem.

    The Unionist community in NI really need their own F. W. de Klerk to come forward who can speak real home truths about their perilous situation, not just in terms of changing demographics but also the academic achievement gap opening up between the two communities. Instead they are stuck with ideologues who encourage rioting when a flag is taken down over Belfast city hall.

    Northern Ireland has in many ways a golden opportunity to 'have it's cake and eat it' by remaining part of the United Kingdom while staying in the customs union and the free market. A purely economic reading of this says they'd be mad to not take it, but Arlene Foster would rather see NI sink into economic depression.

    Having said all this, these are the elected representatives of the people of NI, so maybe this is the will of the unionist people? Does sectarianism still trump prosperity and economics? Sadly it seems that way.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    rkrkrk said:

    I agree with OGH that the reason JC's ratings have fallen is that he has been getting a lot of negative press of late. But in an election time, other issues will be salient. As we have seen, voters quite like Mr Corbyn's policies.

    Many won't like me saying it, but there is an anti-Corbyn bias in much of the media that is steadily eroding his ratings.

    But during election time this doesn't matter as much because a) he is able to directly reach voters through social media and b) set the agenda to a much greater extent through policy announcements and campaigning c) voters are paying more attention to politics.

    Whether you think the media is biased against Corbyn or not he certainly gets more negative press than is given to the Tories. Also another important point is the broadcast neutrality rules kick in, meaning balanced coverage of Labour, our campaigning and policies which I think helped massively last time.

    For all the criticisms on the left of the BBC and the rest if the UK had something like Fox news in America unrestricted around election time the Conservatives probably would have won a landslide.
    I have tactically voted LAB in Bedford at the last two elections and saw the party gain the seat last year by a narrow majority. Under the new boundaries the margin between LAB & CON is projected at just nine.

    Next time I can assure you that my vote will not go to LAB if Corbyn is still leader whatever the TV coverage. His whole handling of the antisemitism issue has failed to convince me that he is not a racist.
    I don't imagine most politically interested people are swayed much by TV coverage, unless they are unsure most who are passionate probably already know who they want to vote for. I could even tell you I'm voting Labour next election outside of some pretty big changes already even if it is 3+ years away.

    The targets as listed in rk's post would be those who pay less attention outside of election time. Who we can win over during the election period where we have an extended reach in the regular media and through social media.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    tlg86 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    I agree with OGH that the reason JC's ratings have fallen is that he has been getting a lot of negative press of late. But in an election time, other issues will be salient. As we have seen, voters quite like Mr Corbyn's policies.

    Many won't like me saying it, but there is an anti-Corbyn bias in much of the media that is steadily eroding his ratings.

    But during election time this doesn't matter as much because a) he is able to directly reach voters through social media and b) set the agenda to a much greater extent through policy announcements and campaigning c) voters are paying more attention to politics.

    Whether you think the media is biased against Corbyn or not he certainly gets more negative press than is given to the Tories. Also another important point is the broadcast neutrality rules kick in, meaning balanced coverage of Labour, our campaigning and policies which I think helped massively last time.

    For all the criticisms on the left of the BBC and the rest if the UK had something like Fox news in America unrestricted around election time the Conservatives probably would have won a landslide.
    I have tactically voted LAB in Bedford at the last two elections and saw the party gain the seat last year by a narrow majority. Under the new boundaries the margin between LAB & CON is projected at just nine.

    Next time I can assure you that my vote will not go to LAB if Corbyn is still leader whatever the TV coverage. His whole handling of the antisemitism issue has failed to convince me that he is not a racist.
    What information has come to light since last June that's changed your mind?
    Corbyn attended a Passover seder?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,706
    edited October 2018
    daodao said:

    HYUFD said:

    daodao said:

    DavidL said:

    But a no deal Brexit would not benefit France. They are no more ready for that than we are. Of course it would probably disbenefit us more but the implications for them would be significant, as they seem to be waking up too.
    France warned on Wednesday that it would prefer Britain to crash out of Europe without a deal rather than accept a compromise that undermined the integrity of the European Union.

    The stark warning from Nathalie Loiseau, the country’s Europe minister, came as both sides prepared for a crucial fortnight of negotiation following the close of the Conservative party conference.

    “No deal would be better than a bad deal,” Ms Loiseau told a French radio station, turning familiar Brexiteers’ own mantra back on the UK, before warning that “time is running out” for Theresa May to strike a deal with Brussels.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/03/no-deal-brexit-better-bad-deal-us-says-macron-minister/
    When will the Maybot understand the phrase "no cherry picking"?

    The compromise that is likely to upset the fewest number of people and be acceptable to the EU would be FM membership in a "Norway-style" deal, with any Customs border in the Irish Sea. The DUP's bluff needs to be called.
    A Norway style deal means staying in the SM anyway and FoM.

    What you actually mean is a Canada-style deal with a Customs border in the Irish Sea
    No, I didn't - I meant remaining in the single market with FoM for workers, but with GB outside the Customs Union, which is Norway's situation. This would much more popular with Remainers and business than a Canada-style arrangement, although this is the other option.
    It would also be utterly pointless and unacceptable without a Customs Union as it still fails to fully solve the Irish border problem.

    Plus Canada has a net +20% approval with voters to +7% for Norway according to ICM

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/libleave_brexit_spectrum.html
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Ban on putting Shetland in a box on maps comes into force

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-45733111

    Unspoofable bit of libdemmery.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,755

    "DUP would prefer no deal Brexit to 'border down Irish Sea', says Dodds"

    This is the whole ball game now folks.

    I think it's a question of how not if May throws the DUP under the bus here. They were always utterly unsuitable partners to rely on in government support, not just for the bind they have put May in on the backstop question, but for their 40+ years of regressive, sectarian history.

    Remember these are the same charlatans that wanted corporation tax harmonisation with Southern Ireland but now reject any solution on the border problem.

    The Unionist community in NI really need their own F. W. de Klerk to come forward who can speak real home truths about their perilous situation, not just in terms of changing demographics but also the academic achievement gap opening up between the two communities. Instead they are stuck with ideologues who encourage rioting when a flag is taken down over Belfast city hall.

    Northern Ireland has in many ways a golden opportunity to 'have it's cake and eat it' by remaining part of the United Kingdom while staying in the customs union and the free market. A purely economic reading of this says they'd be mad to not take it, but Arlene Foster would rather see NI sink into economic depression.

    Having said all this, these are the elected representatives of the people of NI, so maybe this is the will of the unionist people? Does sectarianism still trump prosperity and economics? Sadly it seems that way.

    It's not in the UNionists' nature to just throw in the towel in the way that you would like them to.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited October 2018
    I'd also add that, even leaving aside the specific coverage of parties, the range of issues that broadcasters cover during an election period will also benefit Labour, as it did last time.

    I'm thinking particularly of the BBC here - I can't remember when they last ran a story on government spending cuts, most of their political coverage is either impenetrable Brexit bollocks, or it's Laura Kuenssberg going into hysterics about trivial stuff like May coming onto stage to 'Dancing Queen'. (ITV to their credit have more investigative reports into the effects of austerity, from what I've seen.)
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    A bit more detail on Nissan and why Brexit is potentially so disastrous. Forget dancing queens and the like. This is what matters.

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/oct/04/will-nissan-stay-once-britain-leaves-sunderland-brexit-business-dilemma


    There won't be a need for a Nissan factory in the UK post Brexit because we will be able to import Nissans from Japan tariff free. Japan is also a left hand drive country like us. Also we should be able to export Jaguars to Japan tariff free.
    The new EU Japan trade deal which we will unfortunately not benefit from removes those tariffs.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/who-are-the-winners-and-losers-on-eu-japan-trade-deal-1.3567897

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,706

    "DUP would prefer no deal Brexit to 'border down Irish Sea', says Dodds"

    This is the whole ball game now folks.

    I think it's a question of how not if May throws the DUP under the bus here. They were always utterly unsuitable partners to rely on in government support, not just for the bind they have put May in on the backstop question, but for their 40+ years of regressive, sectarian history.

    Remember these are the same charlatans that wanted corporation tax harmonisation with Southern Ireland but now reject any solution on the border problem.

    The Unionist community in NI really need their own F. W. de Klerk to come forward who can speak real home truths about their perilous situation, not just in terms of changing demographics but also the academic achievement gap opening up between the two communities. Instead they are stuck with ideologues who encourage rioting when a flag is taken down over Belfast city hall.

    Northern Ireland has in many ways a golden opportunity to 'have it's cake and eat it' by remaining part of the United Kingdom while staying in the customs union and the free market. A purely economic reading of this says they'd be mad to not take it, but Arlene Foster would rather see NI sink into economic depression.

    Having said all this, these are the elected representatives of the people of NI, so maybe this is the will of the unionist people? Does sectarianism still trump prosperity and economics? Sadly it seems that way.

    If May does agree that the whole UK effectively stays in the Customs Union until a technical solution is found to the Irish border that avoids a border down the Irish Sea and stops DUP complaints
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,007

    https://twitter.com/HKesvani/status/1047492918750183424

    Can't imagine the headlines if this was Labour.

    Also really don't understand the far right hang up regarding communism/marxism still, its useful because it makes a mockery of the far right support Corbyn smear that has come up now and again but on a practical level surely the modern day far right would be better off tactically concentrating their fire elsewhere, I don't think we will fight the commies is the rallying call it was in 30's Germany as the threat really isn't there like it was.

    I’m willing to bet that think-tank pamphlet by the Bruges Group (and Robert Oulds) is neither far right, racist or anti-Semitic but instead makes some robust criticism of cultural Marxism, which absolutely needs to be said and is actually what’s the basis of the opposition to it in that rant of an article.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Sean_F said:

    Really? and when was this subject officially set? did you decide the subject?

    I was the one that brought it up, simply pointing out how racism from the Tories isn't reported as strongly. which certainly links into the other racist stuff I brought up in response to your defence of it, With the Conservatives racism has been government policy.

    Also I report very few incidents here, you are either getting me confused with someone else or are just a little touchy about criticisms of the right.

    The racism goes to the very top of the Conservative party. it was May who sent out the go home vans, it was Boris who proudly published an article attacking Muslims, it was May who enthusiastically pursued the hostile environment to the Windrush generation. It was also May leading the Conservatives when they readmitted Anne Marie Morris and who still hasn't punished Boris for his comments. It was Cameron leading the party when they had the Islamophobic London Election campaign. There is a good reason the Muslim vote dropped away from the Tories.

    If Labour and Corbyn had gone half as far as the Tories the papers really would go crazy. It might be a comfortable morality blanket to imagine your opponents as the bad guys and yourself as the good guys but anyone who denies the blatant racism around the Conservative party whilst denouncing Labour as racist has let partisan feelings overtake logic.
    There's no point blaming the media for the Labour leadership's own failings. Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, have spent their political careers championing obnoxious causes, and working with obnoxious people, and they own their own records.

    And, in my lifetime, the media have often been absolutely vicious towards the Conservatives.
    I think it was 13 pages in the Mail on election day...

    Half the paper press are right wing shills more interesting in producing propaganda than news reporting. The fault if there is one from Corbyn, Abbott and McDonnell is not being as right wing as Blair, that is the only thing that would satisfy them and call off their abuse.

    Fortunately these days in our democracy these wealthy right wing newspaper owners do not get to decide if the Labour party leader should go for not being right wing enough. They can continue to produce their propaganda, their power is dying.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ban on putting Shetland in a box on maps comes into force

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-45733111

    Unspoofable bit of libdemmery.

    Wait until the Nats complain about publications 'Making Scotland Small'!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,007

    Sandpit said:

    Who’s going to tell her that it’s because of the EU VAT legislation that it can’t be done in the U.K.?
    Quite a few people have... She's had to admit the EU isn't 100% right, first chink in the armour!

    The Leave version of WilliamGlenn would interpret that as a call for hard Brexit

    https://twitter.com/thatginamiller/status/1047759809297174529
    Lol. Gina Miller sees the light.

    She’ll come out for Leave any day now.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    HYUFD said:

    daodao said:

    HYUFD said:

    daodao said:

    DavidL said:

    But a no deal Brexit would not benefit France. They are no more ready for that than we are. Of course it would probably disbenefit us more but the implications for them would be significant, as they seem to be waking up too.
    France warned on Wednesday that it would prefer Britain to crash out of Europe without a deal rather than accept a compromise that undermined the integrity of the European Union.

    The stark warning from Nathalie Loiseau, the country’s Europe minister, came as both sides prepared for a crucial fortnight of negotiation following the close of the Conservative party conference.

    “No deal would be better than a bad deal,” Ms Loiseau told a French radio station, turning familiar Brexiteers’ own mantra back on the UK, before warning that “time is running out” for Theresa May to strike a deal with Brussels.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/03/no-deal-brexit-better-bad-deal-us-says-macron-minister/
    When will the Maybot understand the phrase "no cherry picking"?

    The compromise that is likely to upset the fewest number of people and be acceptable to the EU would be FM membership in a "Norway-style" deal, with any Customs border in the Irish Sea. The DUP's bluff needs to be called.
    A Norway style deal means staying in the SM anyway and FoM.

    What you actually mean is a Canada-style deal with a Customs border in the Irish Sea
    No, I didn't - I meant remaining in the single market with FoM for workers, but with GB outside the Customs Union, which is Norway's situation. This would much more popular with Remainers and business than a Canada-style arrangement, although this is the other option.
    It would also be utterly pointless and unacceptable without a Customs Union as it still fails to fully solve the Irish border problem.

    Plus Canada has a net +20% approval with voters to +7% for Norway according to ICM

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/libleave_brexit_spectrum.html
    F**k the DUP. Any border should be in the Irish Sea. The 6 counties can remain as an overseas territory administered by GB (in conjunction with Eire), until such time as Irish re-unification is acceptable to most people in that territory.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,007
    daodao said:

    HYUFD said:

    daodao said:

    HYUFD said:

    daodao said:

    DavidL said:

    But a no deal Brexit would not benefit France. They are no more ready for that than we are. Of course it would probably disbenefit us more but the implications for them would be significant, as they seem to be waking up too.
    France warned on Wednesday that it would prefer Britain to crash out of Europe without a deal rather than accept a compromise that undermined the integrity of the European Union.

    The stark warning from Nathalie Loiseau, the country’s Europe minister, came as both sides prepared for a crucial fortnight of negotiation following the close of the Conservative party conference.

    “No deal would be better than a bad deal,” Ms Loiseau told a French radio station, turning familiar Brexiteers’ own mantra back on the UK, before warning that “time is running out” for Theresa May to strike a deal with Brussels.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/03/no-deal-brexit-better-bad-deal-us-says-macron-minister/
    When will the Maybot understand the phrase "no cherry picking"?

    The compromise that is likely to upset the fewest number of people and be acceptable to the EU would be FM membership in a "Norway-style" deal, with any Customs border in the Irish Sea. The DUP's bluff needs to be called.
    A Norway style deal means staying in the SM anyway and FoM.

    What you actually mean is a Canada-style deal with a Customs border in the Irish Sea
    No, I didn't - I meant remaining in the single market with FoM for workers, but with GB outside the Customs Union, which is Norway's situation. This would much more popular with Remainers and business than a Canada-style arrangement, although this is the other option.
    It would also be utterly pointless and unacceptable without a Customs Union as it still fails to fully solve the Irish border problem.

    Plus Canada has a net +20% approval with voters to +7% for Norway according to ICM

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/libleave_brexit_spectrum.html
    F**k the DUP. Any border should be in the Irish Sea. The 6 counties can remain as an overseas territory administered by GB (in conjunction with Eire), until such time as Irish re-unification is acceptable to most people in that territory.
    I hate to break it to you, but NI is a fundamental part of the United Kingdom.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517

    rkrkrk said:

    I agree with OGH that the reason JC's ratings have fallen is that he has been getting a lot of negative press of late. But in an election time, other issues will be salient. As we have seen, voters quite like Mr Corbyn's policies.

    Many won't like me saying it, but there is an anti-Corbyn bias in much of the media that is steadily eroding his ratings.

    But during election time this doesn't matter as much because a) he is able to directly reach voters through social media and b) set the agenda to a much greater extent through policy announcements and campaigning c) voters are paying more attention to politics.

    Whether you think the media is biased against Corbyn or not he certainly gets more negative press than is given to the Tories. Also another important point is the broadcast neutrality rules kick in, meaning balanced coverage of Labour, our campaigning and policies which I think helped massively last time.

    For all the criticisms on the left of the BBC and the rest if the UK had something like Fox news in America unrestricted around election time the Conservatives probably would have won a landslide.
    I have tactically voted LAB in Bedford at the last two elections and saw the party gain the seat last year by a narrow majority. Under the new boundaries the margin between LAB & CON is projected at just nine.

    Next time I can assure you that my vote will not go to LAB if Corbyn is still leader whatever the TV coverage. His whole handling of the antisemitism issue has failed to convince me that he is not a racist.
    I don't imagine most politically interested people are swayed much by TV coverage, unless they are unsure most who are passionate probably already know who they want to vote for. I could even tell you I'm voting Labour next election outside of some pretty big changes already even if it is 3+ years away.

    The targets as listed in rk's post would be those who pay less attention outside of election time. Who we can win over during the election period where we have an extended reach in the regular media and through social media.
    Well, you can always try to 'win over' Jewish people. Although that may require to remove the anti-Semite that sits at the top of your party...
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Nobody is seriously considering putting a border down the Irish sea.

    All bluster - "DUP won't sign up to plan to put wolves in every park" - read through the theatre.

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,835

    "DUP would prefer no deal Brexit to 'border down Irish Sea', says Dodds"

    This is the whole ball game now folks.

    I think it's a question of how not if May throws the DUP under the bus here. They were always utterly unsuitable partners to rely on in government support, not just for the bind they have put May in on the backstop question, but for their 40+ years of regressive, sectarian history.

    Remember these are the same charlatans that wanted corporation tax harmonisation with Southern Ireland but now reject any solution on the border problem.

    The Unionist community in NI really need their own F. W. de Klerk to come forward who can speak real home truths about their perilous situation, not just in terms of changing demographics but also the academic achievement gap opening up between the two communities. Instead they are stuck with ideologues who encourage rioting when a flag is taken down over Belfast city hall.

    Northern Ireland has in many ways a golden opportunity to 'have it's cake and eat it' by remaining part of the United Kingdom while staying in the customs union and the free market. A purely economic reading of this says they'd be mad to not take it, but Arlene Foster would rather see NI sink into economic depression.

    Having said all this, these are the elected representatives of the people of NI, so maybe this is the will of the unionist people? Does sectarianism still trump prosperity and economics? Sadly it seems that way.

    Although it is important to point out that the DUP are not the only strand of Unionism, albeit the currently dominant one. There are plenty who wish to remain in the UK who would share many of your views. When added to the Nationalists, they are far from representative of majority opinion.
    On which subject has there been any recent NI polling?
    And what happened to the OUP guy who used to post regularly...Lucian was it?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,755
    daodao said:

    HYUFD said:

    daodao said:

    HYUFD said:

    daodao said:

    DavidL said:

    But a no deal Brexit would not benefit France. They are no more ready for that than we are. Of course it would probably disbenefit us more but the implications for them would be significant, as they seem to be waking up too.
    France warned on Wednesday that it would prefer Britain to crash out of Europe without a deal rather than accept a compromise that undermined the integrity of the European Union.

    The stark warning from Nathalie Loiseau, the country’s Europe minister, came as both sides prepared for a crucial fortnight of negotiation following the close of the Conservative party conference.

    “No deal would be better than a bad deal,” Ms Loiseau told a French radio station, turning familiar Brexiteers’ own mantra back on the UK, before warning that “time is running out” for Theresa May to strike a deal with Brussels.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/03/no-deal-brexit-better-bad-deal-us-says-macron-minister/
    When will the Maybot understand the phrase "no cherry picking"?

    The compromise that is likely to upset the fewest number of people and be acceptable to the EU would be FM membership in a "Norway-style" deal, with any Customs border in the Irish Sea. The DUP's bluff needs to be called.
    A Norway style deal means staying in the SM anyway and FoM.

    What you actually mean is a Canada-style deal with a Customs border in the Irish Sea
    No, I didn't - I meant remaining in the single market with FoM for workers, but with GB outside the Customs Union, which is Norway's situation. This would much more popular with Remainers and business than a Canada-style arrangement, although this is the other option.
    It would also be utterly pointless and unacceptable without a Customs Union as it still fails to fully solve the Irish border problem.

    Plus Canada has a net +20% approval with voters to +7% for Norway according to ICM

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/libleave_brexit_spectrum.html
    F**k the DUP. Any border should be in the Irish Sea. The 6 counties can remain as an overseas territory administered by GB (in conjunction with Eire), until such time as Irish re-unification is acceptable to most people in that territory.
    Sadly for you, we live in a democracy, where people from Northern Ireland return MP's. The alternatives to democracy are not very pleasant, IMHO.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    edited October 2018
    I'm sure Mr Corbyn will suggest we get the Russians' side of the story:

    https://twitter.com/gordoncorera/status/1047788913690140673
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,755
    dixiedean said:

    "DUP would prefer no deal Brexit to 'border down Irish Sea', says Dodds"

    This is the whole ball game now folks.

    I think it's a question of how not if May throws the DUP under the bus here. They were always utterly unsuitable partners to rely on in government support, not just for the bind they have put May in on the backstop question, but for their 40+ years of regressive, sectarian history.

    Remember these are the same charlatans that wanted corporation tax harmonisation with Southern Ireland but now reject any solution on the border problem.

    The Unionist community in NI really need their own F. W. de Klerk to come forward who can speak real home truths about their perilous situation, not just in terms of changing demographics but also the academic achievement gap opening up between the two communities. Instead they are stuck with ideologues who encourage rioting when a flag is taken down over Belfast city hall.

    Northern Ireland has in many ways a golden opportunity to 'have it's cake and eat it' by remaining part of the United Kingdom while staying in the customs union and the free market. A purely economic reading of this says they'd be mad to not take it, but Arlene Foster would rather see NI sink into economic depression.

    Having said all this, these are the elected representatives of the people of NI, so maybe this is the will of the unionist people? Does sectarianism still trump prosperity and economics? Sadly it seems that way.

    Although it is important to point out that the DUP are not the only strand of Unionism, albeit the currently dominant one. There are plenty who wish to remain in the UK who would share many of your views. When added to the Nationalists, they are far from representative of majority opinion.
    On which subject has there been any recent NI polling?
    And what happened to the OUP guy who used to post regularly...Lucian was it?
    Lucid Talk have just published a poll showing 41% in NI want to leave the EU, 56% wish to remain, almost identical to 2016.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517

    I'm sure Mr Corbyn will suggest we get the Russian's side of the story:

    https://twitter.com/gordoncorera/status/1047788913690140673

    Isn't that story already known, and that two of the four were the Salisbury suspects? Or was that another OPCW site?
  • Ishmael_Z said:

    Ban on putting Shetland in a box on maps comes into force

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-45733111

    Unspoofable bit of libdemmery.

    That is magnificently bonkers!
  • I'm sure Mr Corbyn will suggest we get the Russians' side of the story:

    https://twitter.com/gordoncorera/status/1047788913690140673

    If there is anyone left parroting Corbyn's approach, I would suggest medical testing.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,542

    daodao said:

    DavidL said:

    But a no deal Brexit would not benefit France. They are no more ready for that than we are. Of course it would probably disbenefit us more but the implications for them would be significant, as they seem to be waking up too.
    France warned on Wednesday that it would prefer Britain to crash out of Europe without a deal rather than accept a compromise that undermined the integrity of the European Union.

    The stark warning from Nathalie Loiseau, the country’s Europe minister, came as both sides prepared for a crucial fortnight of negotiation following the close of the Conservative party conference.

    “No deal would be better than a bad deal,” Ms Loiseau told a French radio station, turning familiar Brexiteers’ own mantra back on the UK, before warning that “time is running out” for Theresa May to strike a deal with Brussels.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/03/no-deal-brexit-better-bad-deal-us-says-macron-minister/
    The compromise that is likely to upset the fewest number of people and be acceptable to the EU would be FM membership in a "Norway-style" deal, with any Customs border in the Irish Sea. The DUP's bluff needs to be called.
    That would mean continued FoM - one (possibly the only one) of Mrs May's red lines that Leave voters really care about.....given the recent announcements from May & Javid, do you really think that's likely?
    Brexit could lead to a loosening of immigration as it's one of the few bargaining chips the UK has in third party trade negotiations, according to these sources. That has to be balanced by the fact that fewer people WANT to come to the UK, thanks to Brexit.

    (I don't believe the typical Leaver makes the distinction between managed immigration and less immigration. They want to see less).

    https://twitter.com/DavidHenigUK/status/1047789225406550017
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    HYUFD said:


    daodao said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    But a no deal Brexit would not benefit France. They are no more ready for that than we are. Of course it would probably disbenefit us more but the implications for them would be significant, as they seem to be waking up too.
    France warned on Wednesday that it would prefer Britain to crash out of Europe without a deal rather than accept a compromise that undermined the integrity of the European Union.

    The stark warning from Nathalie Loiseau, the country’s Europe minister, came as both sides prepared for a crucial fortnight of negotiation following the close of the Conservative party conference.

    “No deal would be better than a bad deal,” Ms Loiseau told a French radio station, turning familiar Brexiteers’ own mantra back on the UK, before warning that “time is running out” for Theresa May to strike a deal with Brussels.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/03/no-deal-brexit-better-bad-deal-us-says-macron-minister/
    When we say 'France warned' can we please be clear that means 'The Macron and En Marche Government warned' the likes of National Rally and Debout pour la Republique and even some Les Republicains are more sympathetic to Brexit and want a better deal for Britain
    Macron is the current dictator of France - what he says, goes, unless the Reichskanzlerin disagrees.
    Are other French parties banned? No
    An executive presidential system in a multi-party state such as France is an elected dictatorship, with the opportunity every 5 years to turf out the incumbent. Between elections, the ruler is extremely powerful, and the views of other parties count for little.
  • Mr Jezziah, I have met people in the Conservative Party whom I strongly believe have racist views, and I have no sympathy for those idiots, but your attempt to excuse the overt anti-Semitism of a significant part of the Momentum/Labour party, by clutching at straws about Tory inadequacies on the subject is either pathetic or raises questions about your own views. I don't think much of Theresa May, and I thought the van stunt was stupid, but I see no evidence that she is racist. I see lots of evidence that Corbyn is. As you are such an unquestioning supporter, many would think that you most likely share his anti-Semitic prejudices, in which case you are, like most of Corbyn's apologists, an odious scumbag.
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