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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If there is a second referendum then the hardline Brexiters sh

SystemSystem Posts: 6,666
edited October 8 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If there is a second referendum then the hardline Brexiters should take the blame

Excellent by @robertshrimsley on the dangers of a 2nd referendum https://t.co/bOi05az8Y4 pic.twitter.com/2o3LwcjRyU

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 21,032
    edited October 8
    Will Labour vote it down though, regardless?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 19,460
    Absolutely, but in the main they are so blinded they cannot see that they stand a chance of losing Brexit

    And that would be so ironic
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 36,320
    edited October 8

    Will Labour vote it down though, regardless?

    Yes.

    In a way though I do understand if people think Brexit is so terrible they will seek to remain (by voting down any deal and hoping for the nest) even at the risk of no deal, and understand those for who a potential second referendum leading to remain is worth risking rather than a truly terrible Brexit.

    But personally I think once we're out it'll take utter catastrophe to lead us to get back in, and the real fight is over how much divergence there will be over time. Sure, it can be argued that not doing it enough begs the question why leave in the first place, but if in practical terms there are few immediate changes how many remainers would prefer that to chaos, and how many leavers could accept it even for an extended period if it cuts off any closer ties, and gives more of an option of greater divergence, even if that is not taken up as much as it could be?

    I really don't think remainers have given up the fight enough yet to take the suggested strategy, not enough of them. Too many hope it can all be stopped, so that won't save a deal, and the harder Brexiteers seem willing to throw the dice.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 19,460

    Will Labour vote it down though, regardless?

    If and when a deal arrives in the HOC it will be the most important vote for years.

    I would assume that TM and the EU would be very upbeat and in some ways the EU are likely to say this is the best you will achieve

    The public will want it to pass and those playing political games could see a huge backlash
  • Westminster has never had any intention of taking the UK out of the EU either before or after the referendum. The whole of the last two years have been about not delivering the referendum choice and tying to blame someone (anyone) else. The irony will be staying in and then destroying the EU from the inside.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 36,320

    Will Labour vote it down though, regardless?

    If and when a deal arrives in the HOC it will be the most important vote for years.

    I would assume that TM and the EU would be very upbeat and in some ways the EU are likely to say this is the best you will achieve

    The public will want it to pass and those playing political games could see a huge backlash
    I don't doubt there will be a backlash, but if things descend into chaos I don't see the government getting off easier than the opposition.

    As for the public wanting it to pass, will they? People are probably generically in favour of things passing, but not in the specificity. Don't polls show support for all manner of options without overwhelming backing for any one of them.

    It will be a very important vote though, it is why I struggle to believe anyone will abstain, as some theories suggest might happen. I'm not a fan of abstentions anyway, but on this?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 22,024
    I agree that Leavers have been reckless about embedding Brexit and have done their level best to ensure that Brexit will be controversial and a dividing line for years.

    I’m uncertain what Remainers should do. Militantly refusing to accept complicity in a national catastrophe seems reasonable, even if it leads to a worse outcome in the short term.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 12,428

    Absolutely, but in the main they are so blinded they cannot see that they stand a chance of losing Brexit

    And that would be so ironic


    How can you "lose" something you haven't got and aren't going to get?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 19,460
    kle4 said:

    Will Labour vote it down though, regardless?

    If and when a deal arrives in the HOC it will be the most important vote for years.

    I would assume that TM and the EU would be very upbeat and in some ways the EU are likely to say this is the best you will achieve

    The public will want it to pass and those playing political games could see a huge backlash
    I don't doubt there will be a backlash, but if things descend into chaos I don't see the government getting off easier than the opposition.

    As for the public wanting it to pass, will they? People are probably generically in favour of things passing, but not in the specificity. Don't polls show support for all manner of options without overwhelming backing for any one of them.

    It will be a very important vote though, it is why I struggle to believe anyone will abstain, as some theories suggest might happen. I'm not a fan of abstentions anyway, but on this?
    All polls indicate the public want the government to get on with it. Anyone who votes down the withdrawal deal and transistion will be very unpopular indeed
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 36,320
    edited October 8

    Westminster has never had any intention of taking the UK out of the EU either before or after the referendum. The whole of the last two years have been about not delivering the referendum choice and tying to blame someone (anyone) else. The irony will be staying in and then destroying the EU from the inside.

    Seems like there are easier ways to go about destroying the EU than this.

    But I cannot believe the idea that Westminster had no intention of taking us out of the EU. Sure a majority did not want to do it, but they do not have the skill or discipline to manufacture a scenario such as we now have. Indeed, the nature of that situation - confused, chaotic, floundering - is an everyday demonstration they are barely keeping head above water trying to bring about a very difficult idea in as least disruptive way possible. They couldn't merely have half arsed it and gotten to this juncture.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 3,085
    As a Remainer myself I do not want to see Customs Union and single market. Anything less than diamond hard Brexit will not purge our system.
    Every single bloody thing which goes wrong will continue to be blamed on Europe, rather than our dysfunctional political and economic system.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 19,460
    GIN1138 said:

    Absolutely, but in the main they are so blinded they cannot see that they stand a chance of losing Brexit

    And that would be so ironic


    How can you "lose" something you haven't got and aren't going to get?

    If you are not content lets stay in
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 36,320

    I agree that Leavers have been reckless about embedding Brexit and have done their level best to ensure that Brexit will be controversial and a dividing line for years.

    I’m uncertain what Remainers should do. Militantly refusing to accept complicity in a national catastrophe seems reasonable, even if it leads to a worse outcome in the short term.

    It would be, at least, a more principled decision than automatically voting something down mostly because of wanting to win a GE in the chaotic aftermath, then doing something broadly similar anyway.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 36,320

    kle4 said:

    Will Labour vote it down though, regardless?

    If and when a deal arrives in the HOC it will be the most important vote for years.

    I would assume that TM and the EU would be very upbeat and in some ways the EU are likely to say this is the best you will achieve

    The public will want it to pass and those playing political games could see a huge backlash
    I don't doubt there will be a backlash, but if things descend into chaos I don't see the government getting off easier than the opposition.

    As for the public wanting it to pass, will they? People are probably generically in favour of things passing, but not in the specificity. Don't polls show support for all manner of options without overwhelming backing for any one of them.

    It will be a very important vote though, it is why I struggle to believe anyone will abstain, as some theories suggest might happen. I'm not a fan of abstentions anyway, but on this?
    All polls indicate the public want the government to get on with it.
    What's 'it' exactly? And even if they do that doesn't mean they will reward the delivery of 'it', or punish those who prevent 'it'.
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,035
    Add in free movement as well and I'd be all for it as the best of a bad deal until we can agree a new Accession Treaty.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 36,320
    dixiedean said:

    As a Remainer myself I do not want to see Customs Union and single market. Anything less than diamond hard Brexit will not purge our system.
    Every single bloody thing which goes wrong will continue to be blamed on Europe, rather than our dysfunctional political and economic system.

    Governments blame the last lot in power for upwards of a decade in power. The EU will be blamed for things for a very long time. Indeed, it will still be there to be blamed. Diamond hard or soft will only affect the precise nature of the blame.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 12,428

    GIN1138 said:

    Absolutely, but in the main they are so blinded they cannot see that they stand a chance of losing Brexit

    And that would be so ironic


    How can you "lose" something you haven't got and aren't going to get?

    If you are not content lets stay in
    That's clearly the plan? ;)
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,035

    Will Labour vote it down though, regardless?

    If and when a deal arrives in the HOC it will be the most important vote for years.

    I would assume that TM and the EU would be very upbeat and in some ways the EU are likely to say this is the best you will achieve

    The public will want it to pass and those playing political games could see a huge backlash
    And I bet this useless and corrupt government guillotines it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 36,320
    Spoiling a thoughtful conversation about the development of our civilization with talk of Brexit, tut tut.

    Good night all.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 36,320
    Chris_A said:

    Will Labour vote it down though, regardless?

    If and when a deal arrives in the HOC it will be the most important vote for years.

    I would assume that TM and the EU would be very upbeat and in some ways the EU are likely to say this is the best you will achieve

    The public will want it to pass and those playing political games could see a huge backlash
    And I bet this useless and corrupt government guillotines it.
    Corrupt?
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 2,828
    I agree with this. A soft, sensible, economically benign Brexit would be preferable to another poll. I am not sure why some Brexiteers keep pushing for more. Even Peter Hitchens agrees with Mike about this. SM-CU is clearly the way forward.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 19,460
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Will Labour vote it down though, regardless?

    If and when a deal arrives in the HOC it will be the most important vote for years.

    I would assume that TM and the EU would be very upbeat and in some ways the EU are likely to say this is the best you will achieve

    The public will want it to pass and those playing political games could see a huge backlash
    I don't doubt there will be a backlash, but if things descend into chaos I don't see the government getting off easier than the opposition.

    As for the public wanting it to pass, will they? People are probably generically in favour of things passing, but not in the specificity. Don't polls show support for all manner of options without overwhelming backing for any one of them.

    It will be a very important vote though, it is why I struggle to believe anyone will abstain, as some theories suggest might happen. I'm not a fan of abstentions anyway, but on this?
    All polls indicate the public want the government to get on with it.
    What's 'it' exactly? And even if they do that doesn't mean they will reward the delivery of 'it', or punish those who prevent 'it'.
    The public do not have a detailed knowledge of the ins and outs but if it is clear we have control over immigration, our laws, and can do our own trade deals it would pass most tests
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 36,320
    Anazina said:

    I agree with this. A soft, sensible, economically benign Brexit would be preferable to another poll. I am not sure why some Brexiteers keep pushing for more. Even Peter Hitchens agrees with Mike about this. SM-CU is clearly the way forward.

    Should have just pushed for super soft Brexit from the start and see if most remainers could be won over by that! A fine way to stick it to (most) leavers - sure, you can have Brexit, but it is super soft Brexit!
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 22,024
    The failure of Leavers to make any attempt to engage with Remain voters’ concerns is why Brexit is failing.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 12,428
    Anazina said:

    I agree with this. A soft, sensible, economically benign Brexit would be preferable to another poll. I am not sure why some Brexiteers keep pushing for more. Even Peter Hitchens agrees with Mike about this. SM-CU is clearly the way forward.

    Hitchens is a complete nutcase.

    I wouldn't want him to agree with me about the time of day... :D
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 7,664
    It seems Theresa May is holding out for some window dressing.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 15,583
    edited October 8

    Westminster has never had any intention of taking the UK out of the EU either before or after the referendum. The whole of the last two years have been about not delivering the referendum choice and tying to blame someone (anyone) else. The irony will be staying in and then destroying the EU from the inside.

    You don't live in Brisbane do you by any chance?
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 1,804
    edited October 8

    Will Labour vote it down though, regardless?

    May cannot get her deal (if she gets one) through without the support of one of three groups - the ERG ultras, the Labour leadership or backbench Labour remainers.

    But all of these groups now think a no deal scenario will play into their hands.

    The ERG think it will lead to their preferred outcome, namely a no deal Brexit.

    The Labour leadership think it will lead to their preferred outcome, namely a general election.

    Until recently some Labour remainers thought that their best hope was to secure a soft Brexit, and they might have been open to persuasion if May proposed such a deal. But now they think an approaching no deal will lead to their preferred outcome, namely a second referendum which will reverse the result of the first.

    So all of these groups will say that May's deal is crap (and it probably will be crap). So they won't support it. And therefore it is extremely hard to see how she can get a deal through Parliament.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 31,779

    The failure of Leavers to make any attempt to engage with Remain voters’ concerns is why Brexit is failing.

    If only 'Remain Voters' had expressed concerns other than 'not leave'......
  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 1,593

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Will Labour vote it down though, regardless?

    If and when a deal arrives in the HOC it will be the most important vote for years.

    I would assume that TM and the EU would be very upbeat and in some ways the EU are likely to say this is the best you will achieve

    The public will want it to pass and those playing political games could see a huge backlash
    I don't doubt there will be a backlash, but if things descend into chaos I don't see the government getting off easier than the opposition.

    As for the public wanting it to pass, will they? People are probably generically in favour of things passing, but not in the specificity. Don't polls show support for all manner of options without overwhelming backing for any one of them.

    It will be a very important vote though, it is why I struggle to believe anyone will abstain, as some theories suggest might happen. I'm not a fan of abstentions anyway, but on this?
    All polls indicate the public want the government to get on with it.
    What's 'it' exactly? And even if they do that doesn't mean they will reward the delivery of 'it', or punish those who prevent 'it'.
    The public do not have a detailed knowledge of the ins and outs but if it is clear we have control over immigration, our laws, and can do our own trade deals it would pass most tests
    Unfortunately anything that gives us the economic benefits of CU and SM is likely to fail to be clear about any of those things... hence the difficulty of identifying 'it'.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 22,024

    The failure of Leavers to make any attempt to engage with Remain voters’ concerns is why Brexit is failing.

    If only 'Remain Voters' had expressed concerns other than 'not leave'......
    They have. Silly non-observation on your part.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 19,460
    edited October 8
    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Absolutely, but in the main they are so blinded they cannot see that they stand a chance of losing Brexit

    And that would be so ironic


    How can you "lose" something you haven't got and aren't going to get?

    If you are not content lets stay in
    That's clearly the plan? ;)
    I think you are a bit over the top. 2 years ago ERG would have been delighted with Chequers.

    I doubt the deal with carry a title but it is in the country's interest to move past withdrawal and into transistion. If that is stopped a second referendum becomes very possible and ERG risk losing the lot and brexit disappearing over the horizon for years
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 21,032

    The failure of Leavers to make any attempt to engage with Remain voters’ concerns is why Brexit is failing.

    The level of engagement by 95% of Remainers has been "let's not Brexit". There has been little to no sensible suggestion about how to bridge that gap.

  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 1,593

    The failure of Leavers to make any attempt to engage with Remain voters’ concerns is why Brexit is failing.

    If only 'Remain Voters' had expressed concerns other than 'not leave'......
    The most commonly expressed concern was probably 'a narrow vote to leave cannot honestly be characterised as a vote to leave the single market (etc) and so we shouldn't voluntarily sign up for that level of economic damage'.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 22,024

    The failure of Leavers to make any attempt to engage with Remain voters’ concerns is why Brexit is failing.

    The level of engagement by 95% of Remainers has been "let's not Brexit". There has been little to no sensible suggestion about how to bridge that gap.

    As always, the responsibility-avoiding Leavers avoid responsibility for their own failures. One day they will identify something they themselves did wrong. Till then Brexit will continue to be a bellyflop.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 19,460

    Will Labour vote it down though, regardless?

    May cannot get her deal (if she gets one) through without the support of one of three groups - the ERG ultras, the Labour leadership or backbench Labour remainers.

    But all of these groups now think a no deal scenario will play into their hands.

    The ERG think it will lead to their preferred outcome, namely a no deal Brexit.

    The Labour leadership think it will lead to their preferred outcome, namely a general election.

    Until recently some Labour remainers thought that their best hope was to secure a soft Brexit, and they might have been open to persuasion if May proposed such a deal. But now they think an approaching no deal will lead to their preferred outcome, namely a second referendum which will reverse the result of the first.

    So all of these groups will say that May's deal is crap (and it probably will be crap). So they won't support it. And therefore it is extremely hard to see how she can get a deal through Parliament.
    Not all labour mps are remainers and some remainers have indicated it would be difficult to take the deal down
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 21,417
    fpt but related

    Quite a shocking article on what the EU has done to Greece (even if Greece was foolishly self indulgent)

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/a-greek-tragedy-how-the-eu-is-destroying-a-country/

    Written by a Remainer, as well.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 3,085
    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    As a Remainer myself I do not want to see Customs Union and single market. Anything less than diamond hard Brexit will not purge our system.
    Every single bloody thing which goes wrong will continue to be blamed on Europe, rather than our dysfunctional political and economic system.

    Governments blame the last lot in power for upwards of a decade in power. The EU will be blamed for things for a very long time. Indeed, it will still be there to be blamed. Diamond hard or soft will only affect the precise nature of the blame.
    Yes but the "we didn't Brexit hard enough" will at least not be deployed.
  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 1,593

    Will Labour vote it down though, regardless?

    May cannot get her deal (if she gets one) through without the support of one of three groups - the ERG ultras, the Labour leadership or backbench Labour remainers.

    But all of these groups now think a no deal scenario will play into their hands.

    The ERG think it will lead to their preferred outcome, namely a no deal Brexit.

    The Labour leadership think it will lead to their preferred outcome, namely a general election.

    Until recently some Labour remainers thought that their best hope was to secure a soft Brexit, and they might have been open to persuasion if May proposed such a deal. But now they think an approaching no deal will lead to their preferred outcome, namely a second referendum which will reverse the result of the first.

    So all of these groups will say that May's deal is crap (and it probably will be crap). So they won't support it. And therefore it is extremely hard to see how she can get a deal through Parliament.
    Very fair analysis. Her best bet is probably the ERG ultras who may be backed into a corner and sulkily accept a vassal state Brexit with enough window-dressing to claim the arrangement is only temporary, because they realise it's that or a further referendum. Relying on their acting predictably and rationally is not a gamble you'd want to take, though.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 7,664
    Anazina said:

    I agree with this. A soft, sensible, economically benign Brexit would be preferable to another poll. I am not sure why some Brexiteers keep pushing for more. Even Peter Hitchens agrees with Mike about this. SM-CU is clearly the way forward.

    I think we're going to find the Vassal State uncongenial. Nevertheless it's the least bad option given where we are. And where we should never have got to.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 31,779
    edited October 8

    The failure of Leavers to make any attempt to engage with Remain voters’ concerns is why Brexit is failing.

    If only 'Remain Voters' had expressed concerns other than 'not leave'......
    They have. Silly non-observation on your part.
    A better alternative even at this stage would be for Remainers to work together to thwart the hardliners and deliver the most manageable deal in line with the 2016 vote. Customs union, single market, Theresa May’s Chequers plan — all are sub-optimal, but none is the worst outcome. This requires Remainers to accept that they lost but the second vote campaign shows them unready to do so.

    emphasis added

    https://www.ft.com/content/bad4d6e4-cad2-11e8-9fe5-24ad351828ab
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 31,779
    But most fundamental is the damage it will do to democracy. If Remain were to nick it back, where do the former 52 per cent turn next? The phenomenon of populism cannot be wished away and one of its causes was the sense of a political class that does not listen. It is a lesson EU leaders are still failing to learn. Leavers will view a second referendum as a plot by the political class to frustrate their decision. They will not be wrong.

    https://www.ft.com/content/bad4d6e4-cad2-11e8-9fe5-24ad351828ab
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 21,417
    FF43 said:

    Anazina said:

    I agree with this. A soft, sensible, economically benign Brexit would be preferable to another poll. I am not sure why some Brexiteers keep pushing for more. Even Peter Hitchens agrees with Mike about this. SM-CU is clearly the way forward.

    I think we're going to find the Vassal State uncongenial. Nevertheless it's the least bad option given where we are. And where we should never have got to.
    I think we will move to quasi-vassal status - very soft Brexit (either that or a new vote). But then we will be in a cold war with the EU for a generation, as we fight for more freedom, and I think we will get it, in the end. Technology is on our side. National and supranational barriers will become increasingly irrelevant and large protectionist blocs will seem very 1990s.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 19,460

    The failure of Leavers to make any attempt to engage with Remain voters’ concerns is why Brexit is failing.

    If only 'Remain Voters' had expressed concerns other than 'not leave'......
    They have. Silly non-observation on your part.
    A better alternative even at this stage would be for Remainers to work together to thwart the hardliners and deliver the most manageable deal in line with the 2016 vote. Customs union, single market, Theresa May’s Chequers plan — all are sub-optimal, but none is the worst outcome. This requires Remainers to accept that they lost but the second vote campaign shows them unready to do so.

    emphasis added

    https://www.ft.com/content/bad4d6e4-cad2-11e8-9fe5-24ad351828ab
    Very sensible but when did sense come into brexit
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 11,538
    Time for the Ratline podcast, which is brilliant btw.

    Anything other than more bloody Brexit .......
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 22,024

    The failure of Leavers to make any attempt to engage with Remain voters’ concerns is why Brexit is failing.

    If only 'Remain Voters' had expressed concerns other than 'not leave'......
    They have. Silly non-observation on your part.
    A better alternative even at this stage would be for Remainers to work together to thwart the hardliners and deliver the most manageable deal in line with the 2016 vote. Customs union, single market, Theresa May’s Chequers plan — all are sub-optimal, but none is the worst outcome. This requires Remainers to accept that they lost but the second vote campaign shows them unready to do so.

    https://www.ft.com/content/bad4d6e4-cad2-11e8-9fe5-24ad351828ab
    A quote, even in italics, doesn’t make a point.

    If you think that the only concern that Remain voters have expressed is about not leaving, you simply haven’t been paying attention. There were an abundance of points where the government could have sought to address Remain voters’ concerns. Instead, it has consistently chosen to offend them. The end result is that Theresa May is now imploring them for support after spending two years using them as target practice. Unsurprisingly the public is unimpressed.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 19,460
    Time to go

    I hope everyone has a pleasant nights rest

    Good night folks
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 1,804

    Will Labour vote it down though, regardless?

    May cannot get her deal (if she gets one) through without the support of one of three groups - the ERG ultras, the Labour leadership or backbench Labour remainers.

    But all of these groups now think a no deal scenario will play into their hands.

    The ERG think it will lead to their preferred outcome, namely a no deal Brexit.

    The Labour leadership think it will lead to their preferred outcome, namely a general election.

    Until recently some Labour remainers thought that their best hope was to secure a soft Brexit, and they might have been open to persuasion if May proposed such a deal. But now they think an approaching no deal will lead to their preferred outcome, namely a second referendum which will reverse the result of the first.

    So all of these groups will say that May's deal is crap (and it probably will be crap). So they won't support it. And therefore it is extremely hard to see how she can get a deal through Parliament.
    Not all labour mps are remainers and some remainers have indicated it would be difficult to take the deal down
    Names? I haven't seen any Labour remainers saying anything remotely supportive of a putative May deal.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 31,779
    Polruan said:

    The failure of Leavers to make any attempt to engage with Remain voters’ concerns is why Brexit is failing.

    If only 'Remain Voters' had expressed concerns other than 'not leave'......
    The most commonly expressed concern was probably 'a narrow vote to leave cannot honestly be characterised as a vote to leave the single market (etc) and so we shouldn't voluntarily sign up for that level of economic damage'.
    And then a whole host of interviews with Remain politicians saying 'we'd leave the single market if we voted leave' will be trotted out.

    Mr Meeks is wrong - Remainers and Leavers have had a dialogue of the deaf - responsibility lies on both sides. But it appears to reinforce his evidently fragile sense of moral superiority to claim its all Leavers' fault.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 2,828
    TOPPING said:

    Westminster has never had any intention of taking the UK out of the EU either before or after the referendum. The whole of the last two years have been about not delivering the referendum choice and tying to blame someone (anyone) else. The irony will be staying in and then destroying the EU from the inside.

    You don't live in Brisbane do you by any chance?
    When I saw the thread header I immediately invoked the iPhone world clock to check the time of day in Queensland.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 3,085
    kle4 said:

    Anazina said:

    I agree with this. A soft, sensible, economically benign Brexit would be preferable to another poll. I am not sure why some Brexiteers keep pushing for more. Even Peter Hitchens agrees with Mike about this. SM-CU is clearly the way forward.

    Should have just pushed for super soft Brexit from the start and see if most remainers could be won over by that! A fine way to stick it to (most) leavers - sure, you can have Brexit, but it is super soft Brexit!
    Ironically, only one man could have got away with that. A leaver with charisma. Unfortunately, Boris bottled it. It really was his time then and I reckon he could have pulled it off, reaching out to Remainers by claiming it was a knife-edge decision...blah, blah.
    He couldn't be arsed. Too much detail, hard work, not enough opportunity for grandstanding speeches or heavily renumerated columns.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 19,460

    Will Labour vote it down though, regardless?

    May cannot get her deal (if she gets one) through without the support of one of three groups - the ERG ultras, the Labour leadership or backbench Labour remainers.

    But all of these groups now think a no deal scenario will play into their hands.

    The ERG think it will lead to their preferred outcome, namely a no deal Brexit.

    The Labour leadership think it will lead to their preferred outcome, namely a general election.

    Until recently some Labour remainers thought that their best hope was to secure a soft Brexit, and they might have been open to persuasion if May proposed such a deal. But now they think an approaching no deal will lead to their preferred outcome, namely a second referendum which will reverse the result of the first.

    So all of these groups will say that May's deal is crap (and it probably will be crap). So they won't support it. And therefore it is extremely hard to see how she can get a deal through Parliament.
    Not all labour mps are remainers and some remainers have indicated it would be difficult to take the deal down
    Names? I haven't seen any Labour remainers saying anything remotely supportive of a putative May deal.
    Lisa Nandy who of course is in a big leave seat. And others in high leave areas have been commented on
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 2,828

    The failure of Leavers to make any attempt to engage with Remain voters’ concerns is why Brexit is failing.

    If only 'Remain Voters' had expressed concerns other than 'not leave'......
    They have. Silly non-observation on your part.
    A better alternative even at this stage would be for Remainers to work together to thwart the hardliners and deliver the most manageable deal in line with the 2016 vote. Customs union, single market, Theresa May’s Chequers plan — all are sub-optimal, but none is the worst outcome. This requires Remainers to accept that they lost but the second vote campaign shows them unready to do so.

    emphasis added

    https://www.ft.com/content/bad4d6e4-cad2-11e8-9fe5-24ad351828ab
    Do you think the raging populists you invoke upthread will be content with SM-CU?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 22,024

    Polruan said:

    The failure of Leavers to make any attempt to engage with Remain voters’ concerns is why Brexit is failing.

    If only 'Remain Voters' had expressed concerns other than 'not leave'......
    The most commonly expressed concern was probably 'a narrow vote to leave cannot honestly be characterised as a vote to leave the single market (etc) and so we shouldn't voluntarily sign up for that level of economic damage'.
    And then a whole host of interviews with Remain politicians saying 'we'd leave the single market if we voted leave' will be trotted out.

    Mr Meeks is wrong - Remainers and Leavers have had a dialogue of the deaf - responsibility lies on both sides. But it appears to reinforce his evidently fragile sense of moral superiority to claim its all Leavers' fault.
    Leavers are running the show. They want Brexit to work. They’ve proved completely unconvincing and decided not even to try to persuade doubters. Failure is down to them alone.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 31,779

    The failure of Leavers to make any attempt to engage with Remain voters’ concerns is why Brexit is failing.

    If only 'Remain Voters' had expressed concerns other than 'not leave'......
    They have. Silly non-observation on your part.
    A better alternative even at this stage would be for Remainers to work together to thwart the hardliners and deliver the most manageable deal in line with the 2016 vote. Customs union, single market, Theresa May’s Chequers plan — all are sub-optimal, but none is the worst outcome. This requires Remainers to accept that they lost but the second vote campaign shows them unready to do so.

    https://www.ft.com/content/bad4d6e4-cad2-11e8-9fe5-24ad351828ab
    A quote, even in italics, doesn’t make a point.

    If you think that the only concern that Remain voters have expressed is about not leaving, you simply haven’t been paying attention. There were an abundance of points where the government could have sought to address Remain voters’ concerns. Instead, it has consistently chosen to offend them. The end result is that Theresa May is now imploring them for support after spending two years using them as target practice. Unsurprisingly the public is unimpressed.
    You think Remainers accept they have lost? How much energy has been devoted to 'improving Brexit' vs 're-running the referendum'?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 27,641

    The failure of Leavers to make any attempt to engage with Remain voters’ concerns is why Brexit is failing.

    The level of engagement by 95% of Remainers has been "let's not Brexit". There has been little to no sensible suggestion about how to bridge that gap.

    It was made very clear very early that input from Remain supporters was not wanted. They were saboteurs and enemies of the people who needed to go away and get over losing. A PM keen on bringing the country together rather than getting good headlines from the Daily Mail would not have drawn the red lines Mrs May did.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 31,779

    Polruan said:

    The failure of Leavers to make any attempt to engage with Remain voters’ concerns is why Brexit is failing.

    If only 'Remain Voters' had expressed concerns other than 'not leave'......
    The most commonly expressed concern was probably 'a narrow vote to leave cannot honestly be characterised as a vote to leave the single market (etc) and so we shouldn't voluntarily sign up for that level of economic damage'.
    And then a whole host of interviews with Remain politicians saying 'we'd leave the single market if we voted leave' will be trotted out.

    Mr Meeks is wrong - Remainers and Leavers have had a dialogue of the deaf - responsibility lies on both sides. But it appears to reinforce his evidently fragile sense of moral superiority to claim its all Leavers' fault.
    Leavers are running the show.
    Mrs May is a Leaver?
    Philip Hammond is a Leaver?

    Deep cover.......
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 27,641

    The failure of Leavers to make any attempt to engage with Remain voters’ concerns is why Brexit is failing.

    If only 'Remain Voters' had expressed concerns other than 'not leave'......
    They have. Silly non-observation on your part.
    A better alternative even at this stage would be for Remainers to work together to thwart the hardliners and deliver the most manageable deal in line with the 2016 vote. Customs union, single market, Theresa May’s Chequers plan — all are sub-optimal, but none is the worst outcome. This requires Remainers to accept that they lost but the second vote campaign shows them unready to do so.

    https://www.ft.com/content/bad4d6e4-cad2-11e8-9fe5-24ad351828ab
    A quote, even in italics, doesn’t make a point.

    If you think that the only concern that Remain voters have expressed is about not leaving, you simply haven’t been paying attention. There were an abundance of points where the government could have sought to address Remain voters’ concerns. Instead, it has consistently chosen to offend them. The end result is that Theresa May is now imploring them for support after spending two years using them as target practice. Unsurprisingly the public is unimpressed.
    You think Remainers accept they have lost? How much energy has been devoted to 'improving Brexit' vs 're-running the referendum'?

    What scope have Remain supporters been given to do anything?

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 31,779
    Anazina said:

    The failure of Leavers to make any attempt to engage with Remain voters’ concerns is why Brexit is failing.

    If only 'Remain Voters' had expressed concerns other than 'not leave'......
    They have. Silly non-observation on your part.
    A better alternative even at this stage would be for Remainers to work together to thwart the hardliners and deliver the most manageable deal in line with the 2016 vote. Customs union, single market, Theresa May’s Chequers plan — all are sub-optimal, but none is the worst outcome. This requires Remainers to accept that they lost but the second vote campaign shows them unready to do so.

    emphasis added

    https://www.ft.com/content/bad4d6e4-cad2-11e8-9fe5-24ad351828ab
    Do you think the raging populists you invoke upthread will be content with SM-CU?
    52% of the electorate are 'raging populists'?
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,035
    kle4 said:

    Chris_A said:

    Will Labour vote it down though, regardless?

    If and when a deal arrives in the HOC it will be the most important vote for years.

    I would assume that TM and the EU would be very upbeat and in some ways the EU are likely to say this is the best you will achieve

    The public will want it to pass and those playing political games could see a huge backlash
    And I bet this useless and corrupt government guillotines it.
    Corrupt?
    They've had evidence - even convictions - that Leave cheated in the referendum and have done nothing about it, just ploughing on regardless, will of the people and all that bullshit.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 22,024
    edited October 8

    The failure of Leavers to make any attempt to engage with Remain voters’ concerns is why Brexit is failing.

    If only 'Remain Voters' had expressed concerns other than 'not leave'......
    They have. Silly non-observation on your part.
    A better alternative even at this stage would be for Remainers to work together to thwart the hardliners and deliver the most manageable deal in line with the 2016 vote. Customs union, single market, Theresa May’s Chequers plan — all are sub-optimal, but none is the worst outcome. This requires Remainers to accept that they lost but the second vote campaign shows them unready to do so.

    https://www.ft.com/content/bad4d6e4-cad2-11e8-9fe5-24ad351828ab
    A quote, even in italics, doesn’t make a point.

    If you think that the only concern that Remain voters have expressed is about not leaving, you simply haven’t been paying attention. There were an abundance of points where the government could have sought to address Remain voters’ concerns. Instead, it has consistently chosen to offend them. The end result is that Theresa May is now imploring them for support after spending two years using them as target practice. Unsurprisingly the public is unimpressed.
    You think Remainers accept they have lost? How much energy has been devoted to 'improving Brexit' vs 're-running the referendum'?
    Try answering the point. You’re simply wrong when you say that Remain voters have not expressed concerns other than “not leave”. Numerous concerns have been expresssd (and not answered). It would do you well to admit that you have been exceptionally asinine on this occasion.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 23,228
    edited October 8
    And so the the amour propre goes on. The reality is that the more important remainers, those in the cabinet like May and Hunt did this 2 years ago. They engaged with Leavers and sought compromises that addressed their concerns, mitigated the damage but respected the vote. They will ultimately decide what form Brexit takes. Some Leavers will be disappointed but the vote and democracy will be respected.

    As for the professionally offended who have sat on the sidelines waiting for an apology and an acknowledgement of their superior intellect and judgement, well who cares? They are irrelevant by choice and we are bored of their wingeing.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 27,641

    Polruan said:

    The failure of Leavers to make any attempt to engage with Remain voters’ concerns is why Brexit is failing.

    If only 'Remain Voters' had expressed concerns other than 'not leave'......
    The most commonly expressed concern was probably 'a narrow vote to leave cannot honestly be characterised as a vote to leave the single market (etc) and so we shouldn't voluntarily sign up for that level of economic damage'.
    And then a whole host of interviews with Remain politicians saying 'we'd leave the single market if we voted leave' will be trotted out.

    Mr Meeks is wrong - Remainers and Leavers have had a dialogue of the deaf - responsibility lies on both sides. But it appears to reinforce his evidently fragile sense of moral superiority to claim its all Leavers' fault.
    Leavers are running the show. They want Brexit to work. They’ve proved completely unconvincing and decided not even to try to persuade doubters. Failure is down to them alone.

    The Buccaneering Brexiteers who led the Leave campaign had absolutely no clue about how the EU works, about how integrated the UK is in European supply lines or how FTAs get done. Now all these things have become clear they refuse to believe them. How on earth do you engage with such irrationality? It’s not possible.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 48,285

    The failure of Leavers to make any attempt to engage with Remain voters’ concerns is why Brexit is failing.

    Do you want leave voters coming round your house like the witnesses, delivering "Farage's good news" :D ?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 31,779

    The failure of Leavers to make any attempt to engage with Remain voters’ concerns is why Brexit is failing.

    If only 'Remain Voters' had expressed concerns other than 'not leave'......
    They have. Silly non-observation on your part.
    A better alternative even at this stage would be for Remainers to work together to thwart the hardliners and deliver the most manageable deal in line with the 2016 vote. Customs union, single market, Theresa May’s Chequers plan — all are sub-optimal, but none is the worst outcome. This requires Remainers to accept that they lost but the second vote campaign shows them unready to do so.

    https://www.ft.com/content/bad4d6e4-cad2-11e8-9fe5-24ad351828ab
    A quote, even in italics, doesn’t make a point.

    If you think that the only concern that Remain voters have expressed is about not leaving, you simply haven’t been paying attention. There were an abundance of points where the government could have sought to address Remain voters’ concerns. Instead, it has consistently chosen to offend them. The end result is that Theresa May is now imploring them for support after spending two years using them as target practice. Unsurprisingly the public is unimpressed.
    You think Remainers accept they have lost? How much energy has been devoted to 'improving Brexit' vs 're-running the referendum'?
    Try answering the point. You’re simply wrong when you say that Remain voters have not expressed concerns other than “not leave”. Numerous concerns have been expresssd (and not answered). It would do you well to admit that you have been exceptionally asinine on this occasion.
    Got a mirror, dear?

    Why don't you try answering the point.

    How much energy have Remain supporters devoted to:

    Accepting 'Brexit' and trying to improve it.

    vs

    Re-running the referendum.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 48,379
    The only sustainable long term Brexit is a Norway or Canada style one, as both those models have majority support from British voters in the polls.

    A No Deal Brexit though is not sustainable, most voters oppose it and if that was the outcome either a second referendum before the ending of March Brexit date leading to a Remain win or the UK ultimately staying in the single market is the most likely outcome
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 23,410

    The Buccaneering Brexiteers who led the Leave campaign had absolutely no clue about how the EU works, about how integrated the UK is in European supply lines or how FTAs get done. Now all these things have become clear they refuse to believe them. How on earth do you engage with such irrationality? It’s not possible.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 31,779

    The failure of Leavers to make any attempt to engage with Remain voters’ concerns is why Brexit is failing.

    If only 'Remain Voters' had expressed concerns other than 'not leave'......
    They have. Silly non-observation on your part.
    A better alternative even at this stage would be for Remainers to work together to thwart the hardliners and deliver the most manageable deal in line with the 2016 vote. Customs union, single market, Theresa May’s Chequers plan — all are sub-optimal, but none is the worst outcome. This requires Remainers to accept that they lost but the second vote campaign shows them unready to do so.

    https://www.ft.com/content/bad4d6e4-cad2-11e8-9fe5-24ad351828ab
    A quote, even in italics, doesn’t make a point.

    If you think that the only concern that Remain voters have expressed is about not leaving, you simply haven’t been paying attention. There were an abundance of points where the government could have sought to address Remain voters’ concerns. Instead, it has consistently chosen to offend them. The end result is that Theresa May is now imploring them for support after spending two years using them as target practice. Unsurprisingly the public is unimpressed.
    You think Remainers accept they have lost? How much energy has been devoted to 'improving Brexit' vs 're-running the referendum'?

    What scope have Remain supporters been given to do anything?


    Campaign. Which they have. Energetically. For a second referendum
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 2,828
    edited October 8

    Anazina said:

    The failure of Leavers to make any attempt to engage with Remain voters’ concerns is why Brexit is failing.

    If only 'Remain Voters' had expressed concerns other than 'not leave'......
    They have. Silly non-observation on your part.
    A better alternative even at this stage would be for Remainers to work together to thwart the hardliners and deliver the most manageable deal in line with the 2016 vote. Customs union, single market, Theresa May’s Chequers plan — all are sub-optimal, but none is the worst outcome. This requires Remainers to accept that they lost but the second vote campaign shows them unready to do so.

    emphasis added

    https://www.ft.com/content/bad4d6e4-cad2-11e8-9fe5-24ad351828ab
    Do you think the raging populists you invoke upthread will be content with SM-CU?
    52% of the electorate are 'raging populists'?
    I didn’t say they all were. I am referring to your own citation that the populists will turn somewhere even darker if denied their Brexit. I think the vast majority of Remainers would bite your hand off if offered SM-CU. The block is hardline populist Leavers, who are lent too big an ear most the time.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 22,024

    The failure of Leavers to make any attempt to engage with Remain voters’ concerns is why Brexit is failing.

    If only 'Remain Voters' had expressed concerns other than 'not leave'......
    They have. Silly non-observation on your part.
    A better alternative even at this stage would be for Remainers to work together to thwart the hardliners and deliver the most manageable deal in line with the 2016 vote. Customs union, single market, Theresa May’s Chequers plan — all are sub-optimal, but none is the worst outcome. This requires Remainers to accept that they lost but the second vote campaign shows them unready to do so.

    https://www.ft.com/content/bad4d6e4-cad2-11e8-9fe5-24ad351828ab
    A quote, even in italics, doesn’t make a point.

    If you think that the only concern that Remain voters have expressed is about not leaving, you simply haven’t been paying attention. There were an abundance of points where the government could have sought to address Remain voters’ concerns. Instead, it has consistently chosen to offend them. The end result is that Theresa May is now imploring them for support after spending two years using them as target practice. Unsurprisingly the public is unimpressed.
    You think Remainers accept they have lost? How much energy has been devoted to 'improving Brexit' vs 're-running the referendum'?
    Try answering the point. You’re simply wrong when you say that Remain voters have not expressed concerns other than “not leave”. Numerous concerns have been expresssd (and not answered). It would do you well to admit that you have been exceptionally asinine on this occasion.
    Got a mirror, dear?

    Why don't you try answering the point.

    How much energy have Remain supporters devoted to:

    Accepting 'Brexit' and trying to improve it.

    vs

    Re-running the referendum.

    Try again. Are you seriously saying Remain voters have expressed no concerns other than “not Leave”?
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 4,801
    Interesting on the New York Times site - live polling of Texas
    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/upshot/elections-poll-txsen-2.html
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 48,285
    Carlotta voted to remain iirc ^_~
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 31,779
    DavidL said:

    And so the the amour propre goes on. The reality is that the more important remainers, those in the cabinet like May and Hunt did this 2 years ago. They engaged with Leavers and sought compromises that addressed their concerns, mitigated the damage but respected the vote. They will ultimately decide what form Brexit takes. Some Leavers will be disappointed but the vote and democracy will be respected.

    As for the professionally offended who have sat on the sidelines waiting for an apology and an acknowledgement of their superior intellect and judgement, well who cares? They are irrelevant by choice and we are bored of their wingeing.

    +1
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 22,024
    Pulpstar said:

    Carlotta voted to remain iirc ^_~

    Stockholm syndrome is a tragic thing.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 22,024
    DavidL said:

    And so the the amour propre goes on. The reality is that the more important remainers, those in the cabinet like May and Hunt did this 2 years ago. They engaged with Leavers and sought compromises that addressed their concerns, mitigated the damage but respected the vote. They will ultimately decide what form Brexit takes. Some Leavers will be disappointed but the vote and democracy will be respected.

    As for the professionally offended who have sat on the sidelines waiting for an apology and an acknowledgement of their superior intellect and judgement, well who cares? They are irrelevant by choice and we are bored of their wingeing.

    Talk me through the compromises made with Remain voters.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 23,228
    edited October 8

    Interesting on the New York Times site - live polling of Texas
    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/upshot/elections-poll-txsen-2.html

    A vivid demonstration of the problems with polling. 865 calls, 15 answers. How weird are those 15?Are they typical of anything?
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 5,483

    I agree that Leavers have been reckless about embedding Brexit and have done their level best to ensure that Brexit will be controversial and a dividing line for years.

    I’m uncertain what Remainers should do. Militantly refusing to accept complicity in a national catastrophe seems reasonable, even if it leads to a worse outcome in the short term.

    I am not advocating a second referendum, but if we are given one, I shall vote "Remain".

    I am sure the Leavers will justify my investments in popcorn companies, regardless of the outcome.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 21,032

    The failure of Leavers to make any attempt to engage with Remain voters’ concerns is why Brexit is failing.

    The level of engagement by 95% of Remainers has been "let's not Brexit". There has been little to no sensible suggestion about how to bridge that gap.

    It was made very clear very early that input from Remain supporters was not wanted. They were saboteurs and enemies of the people who needed to go away and get over losing. A PM keen on bringing the country together rather than getting good headlines from the Daily Mail would not have drawn the red lines Mrs May did.

    What input has Dominic Grieve made to making Brexit work? Anna Soubry? Ken Clarke? Sarah Wollaston? THAT is an assembly of the asinine.....
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 5,483
    Pulpstar said:

    The failure of Leavers to make any attempt to engage with Remain voters’ concerns is why Brexit is failing.

    Do you want leave voters coming round your house like the witnesses, delivering "Farage's good news" :D ?
    It would make me feel better as long as they call at the correct time (so I can throw the used dishwater at them and tell them to clear off).
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 27,641

    The failure of Leavers to make any attempt to engage with Remain voters’ concerns is why Brexit is failing.

    If only 'Remain Voters' had expressed concerns other than 'not leave'......
    They have. Silly non-observation on your part.
    A better alternative even at this stage would be for Remainers to work together to thwart the hardliners and deliver the most manageable deal in line with the 2016 vote. Customs union, single market, Theresa May’s Chequers plan — all are sub-optimal, but none is the worst outcome. This requires Remainers to accept that they lost but the second vote campaign shows them unready to do so.

    https://www.ft.com/content/bad4d6e4-cad2-11e8-9fe5-24ad351828ab
    A quote, even in italics, doesn’t make a point.

    If you think that the only concern that Remain voters have expressed is about not leaving, you simply haven’t been paying attention. There were an abundance of points where the government could have sought to address Remain voters’ concerns. Instead, it has consistently chosen to offend them. The end result is that Theresa May is now imploring them for support after spending two years using them as target practice. Unsurprisingly the public is unimpressed.
    You think Remainers accept they have lost? How much energy has been devoted to 'improving Brexit' vs 're-running the referendum'?

    What scope have Remain supporters been given to do anything?


    Campaign. Which they have. Energetically. For a second referendum

    Some have. Most haven’t. They’ve just watched as clueless, Buccaneering Brexiteers have demonstrated their complete inability to deliver the sunlit uplands they promised. May’s red lines effectively ended any room for meaningful negotiation. That was the point when building broad backing for a relatively pain-free Brexit ended.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 48,285
    DavidL said:

    Interesting on the New York Times site - live polling of Texas
    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/upshot/elections-poll-txsen-2.html

    A vivid demonstration of the problems with polling. 865 calls, 15 answers. How weird are those 15?Are they typical of anything?
    Probably, but hopefully not their voting behaviour. Differential non or excessively positive response for a certain candidate must always be a danger with phone polling. The liars probably cancel to a large degree.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 22,024
    edited October 8
    Pulpstar said:

    The failure of Leavers to make any attempt to engage with Remain voters’ concerns is why Brexit is failing.

    Do you want leave voters coming round your house like the witnesses, delivering "Farage's good news" :D ?
    It would at least give me the opportunity to throw buckets of urine over them.

    EDIT I see @Beverley_C thinks similarly.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 27,641

    The failure of Leavers to make any attempt to engage with Remain voters’ concerns is why Brexit is failing.

    The level of engagement by 95% of Remainers has been "let's not Brexit". There has been little to no sensible suggestion about how to bridge that gap.

    It was made very clear very early that input from Remain supporters was not wanted. They were saboteurs and enemies of the people who needed to go away and get over losing. A PM keen on bringing the country together rather than getting good headlines from the Daily Mail would not have drawn the red lines Mrs May did.

    What input has Dominic Grieve made to making Brexit work? Anna Soubry? Ken Clarke? Sarah Wollaston? THAT is an assembly of the asinine.....

    They have tried and they have been called traitors for their efforts, as far as I can tell.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 23,410

    The failure of Leavers to make any attempt to engage with Remain voters’ concerns is why Brexit is failing.

    The level of engagement by 95% of Remainers has been "let's not Brexit". There has been little to no sensible suggestion about how to bridge that gap.

    It was made very clear very early that input from Remain supporters was not wanted. They were saboteurs and enemies of the people who needed to go away and get over losing. A PM keen on bringing the country together rather than getting good headlines from the Daily Mail would not have drawn the red lines Mrs May did.

    What input has Dominic Grieve made to making Brexit work? Anna Soubry? Ken Clarke? Sarah Wollaston? THAT is an assembly of the asinine.....
    Would somebody suggesting we stay in the single market be giving useful input about how to make Brexit work, or would they be guilty of a treacherous betrayal of Brexit?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 27,641

    DavidL said:

    And so the the amour propre goes on. The reality is that the more important remainers, those in the cabinet like May and Hunt did this 2 years ago. They engaged with Leavers and sought compromises that addressed their concerns, mitigated the damage but respected the vote. They will ultimately decide what form Brexit takes. Some Leavers will be disappointed but the vote and democracy will be respected.

    As for the professionally offended who have sat on the sidelines waiting for an apology and an acknowledgement of their superior intellect and judgement, well who cares? They are irrelevant by choice and we are bored of their wingeing.

    Talk me through the compromises made with Remain voters.

    Not actually charging them with treason?

  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 2,828
    P
    Pulpstar said:

    Carlotta voted to remain iirc ^_~

    Indeed her posts at the time make quite some reading today. She was right then, and wrong now. Her claim that Remainers haven’t made any attempts to compromise beyond saying “not leave” is utterly risible. Most would enthusiastically gobble up CU and/or SM yet every time it is suggested hardliners say it is “not leaving”.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 23,228

    DavidL said:

    And so the the amour propre goes on. The reality is that the more important remainers, those in the cabinet like May and Hunt did this 2 years ago. They engaged with Leavers and sought compromises that addressed their concerns, mitigated the damage but respected the vote. They will ultimately decide what form Brexit takes. Some Leavers will be disappointed but the vote and democracy will be respected.

    As for the professionally offended who have sat on the sidelines waiting for an apology and an acknowledgement of their superior intellect and judgement, well who cares? They are irrelevant by choice and we are bored of their wingeing.

    Talk me through the compromises made with Remain voters.
    Ask Mrs May. Read Chequers. Think about the backstop, the payments, the attempts to obtain friction free trade, the grovelling, the overwhelming respect given to every red line of the EU while ours are dropped. The desperation of this government for a soft Brexit is palpable in everything they do and almost everything they say.

    Fair enough, such a deal may well be in our interests, but your bizarre perception that this government has not sought to address Remainers concerns is truly laughable. They have done nothing else.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 835
    Brexit is bonkers.

    The sunlit uplands of Brexit so we were told are more like economic hell.

    You have to wonder if people are sick of austerity, what will they say when the economy goes down the plug hole in a hard Brexit. The tail has wagged the dog for too long. The ERG loons won the battle I.e. the vote but lost the war IMO. The whole edifice of easy trade deals, ending of immigration, money for the NHS etc has been shown to be a croc of shit.

    Those who supported Brexit are gullible fools!

  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 4,801
    DavidL said:

    Interesting on the New York Times site - live polling of Texas
    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/upshot/elections-poll-txsen-2.html

    A vivid demonstration of the problems with polling. 865 calls, 15 answers. How weird are those 15?Are they typical of anything?
    This is how all phone polling works. Huge number of calls to get the required sample. The main ICM calling centre is in Bedford next door to a sixth form college. Before GE2015 I gave a talk to the politics A-level group and almost half of them had part-time jobs as phone interviewers. I learned more speaking to them than they got from me.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 5,483
    FF43 said:

    Anazina said:

    I agree with this. A soft, sensible, economically benign Brexit would be preferable to another poll. I am not sure why some Brexiteers keep pushing for more. Even Peter Hitchens agrees with Mike about this. SM-CU is clearly the way forward.

    I think we're going to find the Vassal State uncongenial. Nevertheless it's the least bad option given where we are. And where we should never have got to.
    "... we're going to find the Vassal State uncongenial ..."

    We? Who is "we"? The UK? Remainers? Leavers?

    Personally I will enjoy listening to Leavers whinging about "another fine mess that they have gotten us into" as a well known clown used to phrase it. Schadenfreude is a terrible thing :D
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 2,828

    Pulpstar said:

    The failure of Leavers to make any attempt to engage with Remain voters’ concerns is why Brexit is failing.

    Do you want leave voters coming round your house like the witnesses, delivering "Farage's good news" :D ?
    It would at least give me the opportunity to throw buckets of urine over them.

    EDIT I see @Beverley_C thinks similarly.
    I think my response would be worse for them. I’d insist they came in for a chat.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 23,228

    DavidL said:

    Interesting on the New York Times site - live polling of Texas
    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/upshot/elections-poll-txsen-2.html

    A vivid demonstration of the problems with polling. 865 calls, 15 answers. How weird are those 15?Are they typical of anything?
    This is how all phone polling works. Huge number of calls to get the required sample. The main ICM calling centre is in Bedford next door to a sixth form college. Before GE2015 I gave a talk to the politics A-level group and almost half of them had part-time jobs as phone interviewers. I learned more speaking to them than they got from me.
    It’s not often you see it in the raw like that. It is remarkable that the polling is as close as it is.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 27,641
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    And so the the amour propre goes on. The reality is that the more important remainers, those in the cabinet like May and Hunt did this 2 years ago. They engaged with Leavers and sought compromises that addressed their concerns, mitigated the damage but respected the vote. They will ultimately decide what form Brexit takes. Some Leavers will be disappointed but the vote and democracy will be respected.

    As for the professionally offended who have sat on the sidelines waiting for an apology and an acknowledgement of their superior intellect and judgement, well who cares? They are irrelevant by choice and we are bored of their wingeing.

    Talk me through the compromises made with Remain voters.
    Ask Mrs May. Read Chequers. Think about the backstop, the payments, the attempts to obtain friction free trade, the grovelling, the overwhelming respect given to every red line of the EU while ours are dropped. The desperation of this government for a soft Brexit is palpable in everything they do and almost everything they say.

    Fair enough, such a deal may well be in our interests, but your bizarre perception that this government has not sought to address Remainers concerns is truly laughable. They have done nothing else.

    Are you seriously claiming Leave voters voted to leave without a deal? Seeking an agreement with the EU is not pandering to Remain voters it is trying to ensure the country does not suffer an economic calamity. We grovel because that’s the position the Leave vote put us in. Just as Remainers warned.

  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 5,483

    Pulpstar said:

    The failure of Leavers to make any attempt to engage with Remain voters’ concerns is why Brexit is failing.

    Do you want leave voters coming round your house like the witnesses, delivering "Farage's good news" :D ?
    It would at least give me the opportunity to throw buckets of urine over them.

    EDIT I see @Beverley_C thinks similarly.
    Well... similar-ish. I do not have buckets of urine to hand nor do I possess your far superior aiming mechanism ;)
  • trawltrawl Posts: 104

    Brexit is bonkers.

    The sunlit uplands of Brexit so we were told are more like economic hell.

    You have to wonder if people are sick of austerity, what will they say when the economy goes down the plug hole in a hard Brexit. The tail has wagged the dog for too long. The ERG loons won the battle I.e. the vote but lost the war IMO. The whole edifice of easy trade deals, ending of immigration, money for the NHS etc has been shown to be a croc of shit.

    Those who supported Brexit are gullible fools!

    Ah the “loons” and “fools” level of engagement. Keep them coming, it’s worked so well so far, sigh.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 23,410
    Pulpstar said:

    The failure of Leavers to make any attempt to engage with Remain voters’ concerns is why Brexit is failing.

    Do you want leave voters coming round your house like the witnesses, delivering "Farage's good news" :D ?
    Talking of which, Steve Baker says that Brexit will transform world trade for "billions of people around the world".

  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 1,284
    DavidL said:

    And so the the amour propre goes on. The reality is that the more important remainers, those in the cabinet like May and Hunt did this 2 years ago. They engaged with Leavers and sought compromises that addressed their concerns, mitigated the damage but respected the vote.

    Yes, and judging from her initial words and approach May really did at that time seem willing to deliver a meaningful Brexit. Johnson continues to applaud her early approach as set out at Lancaster House. The problem is that the course she is following now is very different from her approach 2 years ago. So all the engagement and seeking of compromises seems to have been only a political tool to keep Johnson and Davis on board for as long as possible, before they were presented a very different approach in the form of the Chequers ultimatum.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 2,828
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Interesting on the New York Times site - live polling of Texas
    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/upshot/elections-poll-txsen-2.html

    A vivid demonstration of the problems with polling. 865 calls, 15 answers. How weird are those 15?Are they typical of anything?
    This is how all phone polling works. Huge number of calls to get the required sample. The main ICM calling centre is in Bedford next door to a sixth form college. Before GE2015 I gave a talk to the politics A-level group and almost half of them had part-time jobs as phone interviewers. I learned more speaking to them than they got from me.
    It is remarkable that the polling is as close as it is.
    You must get different polls to me.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 23,410

    DavidL said:

    And so the the amour propre goes on. The reality is that the more important remainers, those in the cabinet like May and Hunt did this 2 years ago. They engaged with Leavers and sought compromises that addressed their concerns, mitigated the damage but respected the vote.

    Yes, and judging from her initial words and approach May really did at that time seem willing to deliver a meaningful Brexit. Johnson continues to applaud her early approach as set out at Lancaster House. The problem is that the course she is following now is very different from her approach 2 years ago. So all the engagement and seeking of compromises seems to have been only a political tool to keep Johnson and Davis on board for as long as possible, before they were presented a very different approach in the form of the Chequers ultimatum.
    Lancaster House isn't as much of a hard Brexit manifesto as people remember. It says this about the customs union for example:

    Whether that means we must reach a completely new customs agreement, become an associate member of the Customs Union in some way, or remain a signatory to some elements of it, I hold no preconceived position.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 3,085

    Pulpstar said:

    The failure of Leavers to make any attempt to engage with Remain voters’ concerns is why Brexit is failing.

    Do you want leave voters coming round your house like the witnesses, delivering "Farage's good news" :D ?
    Talking of which, Steve Baker says that Brexit will transform world trade for "billions of people around the world".

    In South Sudan and Indonesia they speak of little else...
This discussion has been closed.