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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The betting markets are still pretty solid that the UK will be

SystemSystem Posts: 11,014
edited October 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The betting markets are still pretty solid that the UK will be out of the EU by March 29th

Will the UK leave the EU at the end of March 2019 as planned? Punters on Betfair make it a 65% chance that it will. pic.twitter.com/DubHklB6Lf

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  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    first?
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited October 2018
    Yup, orders is orders. Charge for the guns.

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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,980
    Yes if a Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period, if No Deal much more debateable and EUref2 much more likely
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    Brexit means UK remains in the customs union? EU should be pretty happy with that outcome. Add to it UK will defenestrate themselves from all means of influence, Councils of ministers, the commission, all UK MEPs including Farage out of the Parliament, well, from the EU point of view that’s just the cherry on the cake. If UK offers CU+defenestration, EU will bite our arm off to sign this week
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,183
    I find the story about Kashoggi, the journalist apparently murdered within the Saudi consulate in Istanbul astounding.

    Why is this any different from the Skripal case? Why shouldn’t we be placing immediate sanctions on the Saudi regime? The idea of treating a country which treats people like this - and this is hardly the only example of repellent behaviour by the Saudis - as our ally is grotesque.
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    Not because of the new thread but time to stand down

    I wish everyone a pleasant nights rest

    Good night folks
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    steve_garnersteve_garner Posts: 1,019
    Cyclefree said:

    I find the story about Kashoggi, the journalist apparently murdered within the Saudi consulate in Istanbul astounding.

    Why is this any different from the Skripal case? Why shouldn’t we be placing immediate sanctions on the Saudi regime? The idea of treating a country which treats people like this - and this is hardly the only example of repellent behaviour by the Saudis - as our ally is grotesque.

    It's different from Skripal because whatever happened did not happen in the UK nor, as far as we know, have any Brits died as a result of it.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,183

    Cyclefree said:

    I find the story about Kashoggi, the journalist apparently murdered within the Saudi consulate in Istanbul astounding.

    Why is this any different from the Skripal case? Why shouldn’t we be placing immediate sanctions on the Saudi regime? The idea of treating a country which treats people like this - and this is hardly the only example of repellent behaviour by the Saudis - as our ally is grotesque.

    It's different from Skripal because whatever happened did not happen in the UK nor, as far as we know, have any Brits died as a result of it.
    Other countries imposed sanctions on Russia even though they weren’t directly affected by what happened in Salisbury nor were any of their citizens impacted.

    So, sorry, I think this is very similar. Such behaviour is completely beyond the pale and the civilised world should call the Saudis out on it not turn a blind eye.
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    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    edited October 2018
    Cyclefree said:

    I find the story about Kashoggi, the journalist apparently murdered within the Saudi consulate in Istanbul astounding.

    Why is this any different from the Skripal case? Why shouldn’t we be placing immediate sanctions on the Saudi regime? The idea of treating a country which treats people like this - and this is hardly the only example of repellent behaviour by the Saudis - as our ally is grotesque.

    I have to say I am not overly astounded. Brexit, Trump, Putin, Skripal and now this. It seems about right for the level of madness that is the new normal.

    We will not place any restrictions on the Saudis as long as they have lots and lots money to spend/invest in the UK. We need all the cash we can get.
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    Brexit means UK remains in the customs union? EU should be pretty happy with that outcome. Add to it UK will defenestrate themselves from all means of influence, Councils of ministers, the commission, all UK MEPs including Farage out of the Parliament, well, from the EU point of view that’s just the cherry on the cake. If UK offers CU+defenestration, EU will bite our arm off to sign this week

    If the UK government wish to secure this with a second ref they will do so on yes/no basis like 1975 it will be 60%+ yes. A good chunk of leave and a chunk of remain vote.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,578
    edited October 2018

    Cyclefree said:

    I find the story about Kashoggi, the journalist apparently murdered within the Saudi consulate in Istanbul astounding.

    Why is this any different from the Skripal case? Why shouldn’t we be placing immediate sanctions on the Saudi regime? The idea of treating a country which treats people like this - and this is hardly the only example of repellent behaviour by the Saudis - as our ally is grotesque.

    I have to say I am not overly astounded. Brexit, Trump, Putin, Skripal and now this. It seems about right for the level of madness that is the new normal.

    We will not place any restrictions on the Saudis as long as they have lots and lots money to spend/invest in the UK. We need all the cash we can get.
    Not so much murderers, war criminals and sponsors of international terrorism, but more a valuable sales opportunity.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,797
    edited October 2018

    Brexit means UK remains in the customs union? EU should be pretty happy with that outcome. Add to it UK will defenestrate themselves from all means of influence, Councils of ministers, the commission, all UK MEPs including Farage out of the Parliament, well, from the EU point of view that’s just the cherry on the cake. If UK offers CU+defenestration, EU will bite our arm off to sign this week

    Followed by Corbyn becoming Prime Minister and the Tories out of power for 20 years (or longer if they split) after selling 70% of their voters down the river!

    Oh and don't forget the campaign for Real Brexit begins in earnest on 30th March 2019.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,578
    Jonathan said:

    Yup, orders is orders. Charge for the guns.

    Set the controls for the heart of the sun.

    It is all inevitable now, just batten down the hatches for a bumpy sea.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,183

    Cyclefree said:

    I find the story about Kashoggi, the journalist apparently murdered within the Saudi consulate in Istanbul astounding.

    Why is this any different from the Skripal case? Why shouldn’t we be placing immediate sanctions on the Saudi regime? The idea of treating a country which treats people like this - and this is hardly the only example of repellent behaviour by the Saudis - as our ally is grotesque.

    I have to say I am not overly astounded. Brexit, Trump, Putin, Skripal and now this. It seems about right for the level of madness that is the new normal.

    We will not place any restrictions on the Saudis as long as they have lots and lots money to spend/invest in the UK. We need all the cash we can get.
    I loathe the way we kowtow to the Saudis and have done so for years and years (remember Blair and the SFO investigation into BaE bribes to the Saudis?).

    We should not be taking Saudi money. Self-respect matters more. Their money is dirty. They are not just buying bling. They use their money to spread their vile ideology which is a threat to us. If we need to sup with them it should be with a very long spoon indeed.

    Putin and the Saudis are two of the best reasons for us to get on with fracking, developing green energy and trying to be as energy efficient as possible.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,578
    GIN1138 said:

    Brexit means UK remains in the customs union? EU should be pretty happy with that outcome. Add to it UK will defenestrate themselves from all means of influence, Councils of ministers, the commission, all UK MEPs including Farage out of the Parliament, well, from the EU point of view that’s just the cherry on the cake. If UK offers CU+defenestration, EU will bite our arm off to sign this week

    Followed by Corbyn becoming Prime Minister and the Tories out of power for 20 years (or longer if they split) after selling 70% of their voters down the river!

    Oh and don't forget the campaign for Real Brexit begins in earnest on 30th March 2019.
    Yes, it does have a few positives :)
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    Foxy said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Brexit means UK remains in the customs union? EU should be pretty happy with that outcome. Add to it UK will defenestrate themselves from all means of influence, Councils of ministers, the commission, all UK MEPs including Farage out of the Parliament, well, from the EU point of view that’s just the cherry on the cake. If UK offers CU+defenestration, EU will bite our arm off to sign this week

    Followed by Corbyn becoming Prime Minister and the Tories out of power for 20 years (or longer if they split) after selling 70% of their voters down the river!

    Oh and don't forget the campaign for Real Brexit begins in earnest on 30th March 2019.
    Yes, it does have a few positives :)
    Sounds marvellous
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    Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    GIN1138 said:

    Brexit means UK remains in the customs union? EU should be pretty happy with that outcome. Add to it UK will defenestrate themselves from all means of influence, Councils of ministers, the commission, all UK MEPs including Farage out of the Parliament, well, from the EU point of view that’s just the cherry on the cake. If UK offers CU+defenestration, EU will bite our arm off to sign this week

    Followed by Corbyn becoming Prime Minister and the Tories out of power for 20 years (or longer if they split) after selling 70% of their voters down the river!

    Oh and don't forget the campaign for Real Brexit begins in earnest on 30th March 2019.
    Au contraire that's when the campaign to rejoin begins.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,797
    edited October 2018
    Foxy said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Brexit means UK remains in the customs union? EU should be pretty happy with that outcome. Add to it UK will defenestrate themselves from all means of influence, Councils of ministers, the commission, all UK MEPs including Farage out of the Parliament, well, from the EU point of view that’s just the cherry on the cake. If UK offers CU+defenestration, EU will bite our arm off to sign this week

    Followed by Corbyn becoming Prime Minister and the Tories out of power for 20 years (or longer if they split) after selling 70% of their voters down the river!

    Oh and don't forget the campaign for Real Brexit begins in earnest on 30th March 2019.
    Yes, it does have a few positives :)
    I'm ready for Corbyn. If we're going to end austerity and start spending on the public services why not let Labour and Corbyn do it?

    Tories can never win a spending war with Labour just as Labour can never win an austerity war with Con.

    Let the good time roll.

    And in the meantime we get to see the Tories eviscerated and humiliated for their betrayal - Win/win. :D
  • Options

    Brexit means UK remains in the customs union? EU should be pretty happy with that outcome. Add to it UK will defenestrate themselves from all means of influence, Councils of ministers, the commission, all UK MEPs including Farage out of the Parliament, well, from the EU point of view that’s just the cherry on the cake. If UK offers CU+defenestration, EU will bite our arm off to sign this week

    If the UK government wish to secure this with a second ref they will do so on yes/no basis like 1975 it will be 60%+ yes. A good chunk of leave and a chunk of remain vote.
    There’s some people on here, I won’t mention names as that would be rude, who if you put Brexit+CU on the ballot paper, would call it a sane Brexit and tick it tomorrow. To be fair to them, they care for their children and grandchildren in decent industrial jobs, and can’t bear to think of them losing those to become Amazon van drivers, or crappy jobs with welfare in between.

    In vain though, ultimately there is no floor to deindustrialisation, how can we produce anything from flat screen TVs to aircraft parts to tyres, and sell it if our labour costs are up to 8 times greater than competitors? Ultimately, when your labour costs are that high making your product completely uncompetitive investment and renewal in your factories will dry up and owners will move the jobs overseas. But at least vassal state buys the oldies some time thinking it’s all going to be okay for their descendents.

    UK didn’t decide to Brexit, old people decided to bequeath this to their dependents, driven by denial of deindustrialisation and Britain’s inevitable decline, increasing loss of sovereignty to globalisation, and the accelerated pace of multi culturalism.
    history books will agree, despite all this Brexit hoo ha, it was container ships that turned Britain into a third world country.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,797
    Chris_A said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Brexit means UK remains in the customs union? EU should be pretty happy with that outcome. Add to it UK will defenestrate themselves from all means of influence, Councils of ministers, the commission, all UK MEPs including Farage out of the Parliament, well, from the EU point of view that’s just the cherry on the cake. If UK offers CU+defenestration, EU will bite our arm off to sign this week

    Followed by Corbyn becoming Prime Minister and the Tories out of power for 20 years (or longer if they split) after selling 70% of their voters down the river!

    Oh and don't forget the campaign for Real Brexit begins in earnest on 30th March 2019.
    Au contraire that's when the campaign to rejoin begins.

    What's the point when we won't have left anything?
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    NYT live phone polling in Pennsylvania 1st District. Just about to reach 250 respondents which is the minimum required:

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/upshot/elections-poll-pa01-2.html
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,183
    Chris_A said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Brexit means UK remains in the customs union? EU should be pretty happy with that outcome. Add to it UK will defenestrate themselves from all means of influence, Councils of ministers, the commission, all UK MEPs including Farage out of the Parliament, well, from the EU point of view that’s just the cherry on the cake. If UK offers CU+defenestration, EU will bite our arm off to sign this week

    Followed by Corbyn becoming Prime Minister and the Tories out of power for 20 years (or longer if they split) after selling 70% of their voters down the river!

    Oh and don't forget the campaign for Real Brexit begins in earnest on 30th March 2019.
    Au contraire that's when the campaign to rejoin begins.
    I don’t think the EU will want us back until and unless there is a very significant majority for joining. 52/48 for joining just won’t be enough. Why would the EU want all the pain of having as member - again - a country where ca. half don’t want to be in. It just means another round of the psychodrama. What is in it for them?
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    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    Goodnight all
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "All rise in court: a crisis in judges’ morale is behind call for £60,000 pay boost

    The judiciary feels unsafe, undervalued and overworked, but an inflation-shattering salary increase could still be hard to justify, Frances Gibb writes"

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/all-rise-in-court-a-crisis-in-judges-morale-is-behind-call-for-60-000-pay-boost-lzr5wdvfp
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    GIN1138 said:

    Brexit means UK remains in the customs union? EU should be pretty happy with that outcome. Add to it UK will defenestrate themselves from all means of influence, Councils of ministers, the commission, all UK MEPs including Farage out of the Parliament, well, from the EU point of view that’s just the cherry on the cake. If UK offers CU+defenestration, EU will bite our arm off to sign this week

    Followed by Corbyn becoming Prime Minister and the Tories out of power for 20 years (or longer if they split) after selling 70% of their voters down the river!

    Oh and don't forget the campaign for Real Brexit begins in earnest on 30th March 2019.
    The campaign for real Brexit will be still born because Brexit will have been delivered. We will have gone so far down the road, like Norwegians we will boast we are not in EU. The bits we are in will be known as sane Brexit. So it won’t ever get the same traction with the electorate as this Brexit did, the new campaign would be arguing specifically against sane Brexit, not all EU membership. It will also forever be outgunned in the commons.
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    ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    edited October 2018

    Brexit means UK remains in the customs union? EU should be pretty happy with that outcome. Add to it UK will defenestrate themselves from all means of influence, Councils of ministers, the commission, all UK MEPs including Farage out of the Parliament, well, from the EU point of view that’s just the cherry on the cake. If UK offers CU+defenestration, EU will bite our arm off to sign this week

    If the UK government wish to secure this with a second ref they will do so on yes/no basis like 1975 it will be 60%+ yes. A good chunk of leave and a chunk of remain vote.
    There’s some people on here, I won’t mention names as that would be rude, who if you put Brexit+CU on the ballot paper, would call it a sane Brexit and tick it tomorrow. To be fair to them, they care for their children and grandchildren in decent industrial jobs, and can’t bear to think of them losing those to become Amazon van drivers, or crappy jobs with welfare in between.

    In vain though, ultimately there is no floor to deindustrialisation, how can we produce anything from flat screen TVs to aircraft parts to tyres, and sell it if our labour costs are up to 8 times greater than competitors? Ultimately, when your labour costs are that high making your product completely uncompetitive investment and renewal in your factories will dry up and owners will move the jobs overseas. But at least vassal state buys the oldies some time thinking it’s all going to be okay for their descendents.

    UK didn’t decide to Brexit, old people decided to bequeath this to their dependents, driven by denial of deindustrialisation and Britain’s inevitable decline, increasing loss of sovereignty to globalisation, and the accelerated pace of multi culturalism.
    history books will agree, despite all this Brexit hoo ha, it was container ships that turned Britain into a third world country.
    Against which competitors are our labour costs 8x higher. France? Germany? Italy? Spain?
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,578
    edited October 2018

    Brexit means UK remains in the customs union? EU should be pretty happy with that outcome. Add to it UK will defenestrate themselves from all means of influence, Councils of ministers, the commission, all UK MEPs including Farage out of the Parliament, well, from the EU point of view that’s just the cherry on the cake. If UK offers CU+defenestration, EU will bite our arm off to sign this week

    If the UK government wish to secure this with a second ref they will do so on yes/no basis like 1975 it will be 60%+ yes. A good chunk of leave and a chunk of remain vote.
    There’s some people on here, I won’t mention names as that would be rude, who if you put Brexit+CU on the ballot paper, would call it a sane Brexit and tick it tomorrow. To be fair to them, they care for their children and grandchildren in decent industrial jobs, and can’t bear to think of them losing those to become Amazon van drivers, or crappy jobs with welfare in between.

    In vain though, ultimately there is no floor to deindustrialisation, how can we produce anything from flat screen TVs to aircraft parts to tyres, and sell it if our labour costs are up to 8 times greater than competitors? Ultimately, when your labour costs are that high making your product completely uncompetitive investment and renewal in your factories will dry up and owners will move the jobs overseas. But at least vassal state buys the oldies some time thinking it’s all going to be okay for their descendents.

    UK didn’t decide to Brexit, old people decided to bequeath this to their dependents, driven by denial of deindustrialisation and Britain’s inevitable decline, increasing loss of sovereignty to globalisation, and the accelerated pace of multi culturalism.
    history books will agree, despite all this Brexit hoo ha, it was container ships that turned Britain into a third world country.
    Germany has a thriving manufacturing industry despite high wages. It is perfectly possible to have a high skill, high wage economy. Provided you do not bugger up established supply chains and reduce access to your main market.
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,141
    May is pushing for a dog's Brexit, an incoherent Brexit, a half-in half-out Brexit, in short a Brexit that doesn't mean Brexit.

    She has tied herself in knots flailing around to meet EU/Irish concocted red lines. With one bound she could be free if she ditched the back-stop, and this is what must now happen. Fudge is not the answer,.

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    ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    Foxy said:

    Brexit means UK remains in the customs union? EU should be pretty happy with that outcome. Add to it UK will defenestrate themselves from all means of influence, Councils of ministers, the commission, all UK MEPs including Farage out of the Parliament, well, from the EU point of view that’s just the cherry on the cake. If UK offers CU+defenestration, EU will bite our arm off to sign this week

    If the UK government wish to secure this with a second ref they will do so on yes/no basis like 1975 it will be 60%+ yes. A good chunk of leave and a chunk of remain vote.
    There’s some people on here, I won’t mention names as that would be rude, who if you put Brexit+CU on the ballot paper, would call it a sane Brexit and tick it tomorrow. To be fair to them, they care for their children and grandchildren in decent industrial jobs, and can’t bear to think of them losing those to become Amazon van drivers, or crappy jobs with welfare in between.

    In vain though, ultimately there is no floor to deindustrialisation, how can we produce anything from flat screen TVs to aircraft parts to tyres, and sell it if our labour costs are up to 8 times greater than competitors? Ultimately, when your labour costs are that high making your product completely uncompetitive investment and renewal in your factories will dry up and owners will move the jobs overseas. But at least vassal state buys the oldies some time thinking it’s all going to be okay for their descendents.

    UK didn’t decide to Brexit, old people decided to bequeath this to their dependents, driven by denial of deindustrialisation and Britain’s inevitable decline, increasing loss of sovereignty to globalisation, and the accelerated pace of multi culturalism.
    history books will agree, despite all this Brexit hoo ha, it was container ships that turned Britain into a third world country.
    Germany has a thriving manufacturing industry despite high wages. It is perfectly possible to have a high skill, high wage economy. Provided you do not bugger up established supply chains and lose access to your main market.
    Germany's largest market in the EU is the UK.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Foxy said:

    Brexit means UK remains in the customs union? EU should be pretty happy with that outcome. Add to it UK will defenestrate themselves from all means of influence, Councils of ministers, the commission, all UK MEPs including Farage out of the Parliament, well, from the EU point of view that’s just the cherry on the cake. If UK offers CU+defenestration, EU will bite our arm off to sign this week

    If the UK government wish to secure this with a second ref they will do so on yes/no basis like 1975 it will be 60%+ yes. A good chunk of leave and a chunk of remain vote.
    There’thinking it’s all going to be okay for their descendents.

    UK didn’t decide to Brexit, old people decided to bequeath this to their dependents, driven by denial of deindustrialisation and Britain’s inevitable decline, increasing loss of sovereignty to globalisation, and the accelerated pace of multi culturalism.
    history books will agree, despite all this Brexit hoo ha, it was container ships that turned Britain into a third world country.
    Germany has a thriving manufacturing industry despite high wages. It is perfectly possible to have a high skill, high wage economy. Provided you do not bugger up established supply chains and reduce access to your main market.
    it also helps that the EU set economic policy to benefit Germany at the expense of Southern Europe.

    And the EU made sure German banks were ok - at the expense of Southern Europe.

    Nice club.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    FTPT
    justin124 said:



    Until the Independence Referendum many Tories did support the SNP in Scotland on an anti-Labour tactical basis. Much - though not all - of the Tory recovery there can be explained by such voters having returned to their Tory roots and helped deliver significant gains in the rural areas in 2017. Thus, many of those people who were voting SNP from the early 1970s until 2015 have now ceased to do so. The SNP has been able to offset the loss of that support by winning votes in the Labour heartlands - but Labour remains at an average of circa 26% in polls there ie pretty level pegging with the Tories.
    I have - and have always had - a much more hostile view of Nationalism than you appear to hold, and reject it in all its forms whether found in the BNP - UKIP - the right wing of the Tory party - the SNP - or Plaid Cymru.

    Except the voter switching matrix doesn't support that theory. Conservatives in Scotland made almost the entirety of their gains from Unionist Lib Dem voters who switched en masse. They also benefitted from clear differential turnout effects - the SNP vote is a large proportion lazy voters.
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    Foxy said:

    Brexit means UK remains in the customs union? EU should be pretty happy with that outcome. Add to it UK will defenestrate themselves from all means of influence, Councils of ministers, the commission, all UK MEPs including Farage out of the Parliament, well, from the EU point of view that’s just the cherry on the cake. If UK offers CU+defenestration, EU will bite our arm off to sign this week

    If the UK government wish to secure this with a second ref they will do so on yes/no basis like 1975 it will be 60%+ yes. A good chunk of leave and a chunk of remain vote.
    There’s some people on here, I won’t mention names as that would be rude, who if you put Brexit+CU on the ballot paper, would call it a sane Brexit and tick it tomorrow. To be fair to them, they care for their children and grandchildren in decent industrial jobs, and can’t bear to think of them losing those to become Amazon van drivers, or crappy jobs with welfare in between.

    In vain though, ultimately there is no floor to deindustrialisation, how can we produce anything from flat screen TVs to aircraft parts to tyres, and sell it if our labour costs are up to 8 times greater than competitors? Ultimately, when your labour costs are that high making your product completely uncompetitive investment and renewal in your factories will dry up and owners will move the jobs overseas. But at least vassal state buys the oldies some time thinking it’s all going to be okay for their descendents.

    UK didn’t decide to Brexit, old people decided to bequeath this to their dependents, driven by denial of deindustrialisation and Britain’s inevitable decline, increasing loss of sovereignty to globalisation, and the accelerated pace of multi culturalism.
    history books will agree, despite all this Brexit hoo ha, it was container ships that turned Britain into a third world country.
    Germany has a thriving manufacturing industry despite high wages. It is perfectly possible to have a high skill, high wage economy. Provided you do not bugger up established supply chains and reduce access to your main market.
    German industry is doomed.

    The German demographic time bomb will reduce the nation to paupers.
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    solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623
    I'm sort of half-surprised May doesn't just turn the Scottish independence discussion on its head and make noises about granting an Indyref2 Section 30 if the SNP would just support her Brexit deal in the HOC.

    She could probably stop caring about the DUP wobbling, avoid EU Ref2, avoid a General Election, get her Brexit deal through more comfortably than otherwise in all likelihood. She presents it as a difficult compromise she had to make to get a workable Brexit deal through whilst positioning herself as calling the SNP's bluff.

    She knows if she gets a deal through she gets to the "deal" scenarios where there's less likelihood of a Yes vote in Indyref2 (HYUFD can quote the current state of the poll numbers). On the flipside the SNP will still think they're in decent enough shape for Yes to go into any campaign, but are torn between supporting the Tories but also voting for a least-worst Brexit deal based on their positioning till now, can say they're respecting the UK Brexit vote but want Scotland to have another say on its own basis, AND they get something that they actually want. Also as a double 6 for May, the SNP turning down the chance would alienate a lot of supporters raring for indyref2 right now.

    The ERG rattle their chains about the Brexit deal & the S30, but the equation is still the same - are they confident of deposing May in a party VONC, and voting against her in large numbers in the HOC risks any or all of no Brexit at all, EU Ref2, and/or PM Corbyn.

    Other than her potential for actually being able to deliver the S30 (which she doesn't actually want to do anyway), what's the downside for her? She's a can kicker, say what you need to say to get through today and worry about tomorrow...tomorrow, has been her philosophy in this whole thing.

    I'm sure it's a non-starter in reality and potentially solves one problem by creating another, but that seems true for most of her options these days so what's new?
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I find the story about Kashoggi, the journalist apparently murdered within the Saudi consulate in Istanbul astounding.

    Why is this any different from the Skripal case? Why shouldn’t we be placing immediate sanctions on the Saudi regime? The idea of treating a country which treats people like this - and this is hardly the only example of repellent behaviour by the Saudis - as our ally is grotesque.

    I have to say I am not overly astounded. Brexit, Trump, Putin, Skripal and now this. It seems about right for the level of madness that is the new normal.

    We will not place any restrictions on the Saudis as long as they have lots and lots money to spend/invest in the UK. We need all the cash we can get.
    I loathe the way we kowtow to the Saudis and have done so for years and years (remember Blair and the SFO investigation into BaE bribes to the Saudis?).

    We should not be taking Saudi money. Self-respect matters more. Their money is dirty. They are not just buying bling. They use their money to spread their vile ideology which is a threat to us. If we need to sup with them it should be with a very long spoon indeed.

    Putin and the Saudis are two of the best reasons for us to get on with fracking, developing green energy and trying to be as energy efficient as possible.
    Hard to argue with that

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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,578

    Foxy said:

    Brexit means UK remains in the customs union? EU should be pretty happy with that outcome. Add to it UK will defenestrate themselves from all means of influence, Councils of ministers, the commission, all UK MEPs including Farage out of the Parliament, well, from the EU point of view that’s just the cherry on the cake. If UK offers CU+defenestration, EU will bite our arm off to sign this week

    If the UK government wish to secure this with a second ref they will do so on yes/no basis like 1975 it will be 60%+ yes. A good chunk of leave and a chunk of remain vote.
    There’s some people on here, I won’t mention names as that would be rude, who if you put Brexit+CU on the ballot paper, would call it a sane Brexit and tick it tomorrow. To be fair to them, they care for their children and grandchildren in decent industrial jobs, and can’t bear to think of them losing those to become Amazon van drivers, or crappy jobs with welfare in between.

    In vain though, ultimately there is no floor to deindustrialisation, how can we produce anything from flat screen TVs to aircraft parts to tyres, and sell it if our labour costs are up to 8 times greater than competitors? Ultimately, when your labour costs are that high making your product completely uncompetitive investment and renewal in your factories will dry up and owners will move the jobs overseas. But at least vassal state buys the oldies some time thinking it’s all going to be okay for their descendents.

    UK didn’t decide to Brexit, old people decided to bequeath this to their dependents, driven by denial of deindustrialisation and Britain’s inevitable decline, increasing loss of sovereignty to globalisation, and the accelerated pace of multi culturalism.
    history books will agree, despite all this Brexit hoo ha, it was container ships that turned Britain into a third world country.
    Germany has a thriving manufacturing industry despite high wages. It is perfectly possible to have a high skill, high wage economy. Provided you do not bugger up established supply chains and lose access to your main market.
    Germany's largest market in the EU is the UK.
    Germany is one of the worlds largest manufacturing economies, just making the point that it is possible in a high wage economy.

    Germany will be fine post Brexit. It has had worse setbacks in the last century.
  • Options

    Brexit means UK remains in the customs union? EU should be pretty happy with that outcome. Add to it UK will defenestrate themselves from all means of influence, Councils of ministers, the commission, all UK MEPs including Farage out of the Parliament, well, from the EU point of view that’s just the cherry on the cake. If UK offers CU+defenestration, EU will bite our arm off to sign this week

    If the UK government wish to secure this with a second ref they will do so on yes/no basis like 1975 it will be 60%+ yes. A good chunk of leave and a chunk of remain vote.
    There’s some people on here, I won’t mention names as that would be rude, who if you put Brexit+CU on the ballot paper, would call it a sane Brexit and tick it tomorrow. To be fair to them, they care for their children and grandchildren in decent industrial jobs, and can’t bear to think of them losing those to become Amazon van drivers, or crappy jobs with welfare in between.

    In vain though, ultimately there is no floor to deindustrialisation, how can we produce anything from flat screen TVs to aircraft parts to tyres, and sell it if our labour costs are up to 8 times greater than competitors? Ultimately, when your labour costs are that high making your product completely uncompetitive investment and renewal in your factories will dry up and owners will move the jobs overseas. But at least vassal state buys the oldies some time thinking it’s all going to be okay for their descendents.

    UK didn’t decide to Brexit, old people decided to bequeath this to their dependents, driven by denial of deindustrialisation and Britain’s inevitable decline, increasing loss of sovereignty to globalisation, and the accelerated pace of multi culturalism.
    history books will agree, despite all this Brexit hoo ha, it was container ships that turned Britain into a third world country.
    Against which competitors are our labour costs 8x higher. France? Germany? Italy? Spain?
    Far East. Africa. I said up to 8x higher. If it’s only 3x it’s still jobs transferred to Serbia.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,578
    AndyJS said:

    "All rise in court: a crisis in judges’ morale is behind call for £60,000 pay boost

    The judiciary feels unsafe, undervalued and overworked, but an inflation-shattering salary increase could still be hard to justify, Frances Gibb writes"

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/all-rise-in-court-a-crisis-in-judges-morale-is-behind-call-for-60-000-pay-boost-lzr5wdvfp

    Yes, May coming out saying she is ending austerity is unleashing a very Seventies set of pay demands.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,797
    edited October 2018

    GIN1138 said:

    Brexit means UK remains in the customs union? EU should be pretty happy with that outcome. Add to it UK will defenestrate themselves from all means of influence, Councils of ministers, the commission, all UK MEPs including Farage out of the Parliament, well, from the EU point of view that’s just the cherry on the cake. If UK offers CU+defenestration, EU will bite our arm off to sign this week

    Followed by Corbyn becoming Prime Minister and the Tories out of power for 20 years (or longer if they split) after selling 70% of their voters down the river!

    Oh and don't forget the campaign for Real Brexit begins in earnest on 30th March 2019.
    The campaign for real Brexit will be still born because Brexit will have been delivered. We will have gone so far down the road, like Norwegians we will boast we are not in EU. The bits we are in will be known as sane Brexit. So it won’t ever get the same traction with the electorate as this Brexit did, the new campaign would be arguing specifically against sane Brexit, not all EU membership. It will also forever be outgunned in the commons.
    Your assuming the Commons will be like it is now.

    After Theresa May sells out 70% of her voters Corbyn will win a majority whenever the election is held (I assume it will be next year sometime quite soon after 29th March)

    At that point the Tory Party splits in two, maybe three factions. Who knows what follows that? (and who can say what would come after a Corbyn government?)

    The moment Corbyn becomes PM and the Tory Party splits all bets are off...
  • Options
    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Brexit means UK remains in the customs union? EU should be pretty happy with that outcome. Add to it UK will defenestrate themselves from all means of influence, Councils of ministers, the commission, all UK MEPs including Farage out of the Parliament, well, from the EU point of view that’s just the cherry on the cake. If UK offers CU+defenestration, EU will bite our arm off to sign this week

    In vain though, ultimately there is no floor to deindustrialisation, how can we produce anything from flat screen TVs to aircraft parts to tyres, and sell it if our labour costs are up to 8 times greater than competitors? Ultimately, when your labour costs are that high making your product completely uncompetitive investment and renewal in your factories will dry up and owners will move the jobs overseas. But at least vassal state buys the oldies some time thinking it’s all going to be okay for their descendents.

    UK didn’t decide to Brexit, old people decided to bequeath this to their dependents, driven by denial of deindustrialisation and Britain’s inevitable decline, increasing loss of sovereignty to globalisation, and the accelerated pace of multi culturalism.
    history books will agree, despite all this Brexit hoo ha, it was container ships that turned Britain into a third world country.
    Germany has a thriving manufacturing industry despite high wages. It is perfectly possible to have a high skill, high wage economy. Provided you do not bugger up established supply chains and lose access to your main market.
    Germany's largest market in the EU is the UK.
    Germany is one of the worlds largest manufacturing economies, just making the point that it is possible in a high wage economy.

    Germany will be fine post Brexit. It has had worse setbacks in the last century.
    I cannot see BMW, Audi or Mercedes car owners in the UK suddenly changing taste and buying Jaguar or Range Rover, more is the pity. The problem is the UK lost much wealth creating manufacturing from the 1970s onwards. The Brexit advocates do not logically explain why Japanese firms that manufacture in the UK will stay in the UK if it is outside the EU. If I were the firms in question I would relocate to the EU after Brexit as the supply chain will be less convoluted and it would preserve non tariff access to the single market. Poland and other eastern European countries will be licking their lips over the UK's folly. It is such a pity that the UK is being subjected to this nonsense. It is fool hardy to continue with Brexit.
  • Options
    SeanT said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Brexit means UK remains in the customs union? EU should be pretty happy with that outcome. Add to it UK will defenestrate themselves from all means of influence, Councils of ministers, the commission, all UK MEPs including Farage out of the Parliament, well, from the EU point of view that’s just the cherry on the cake. If UK offers CU+defenestration, EU will bite our arm off to sign this week

    Followed by Corbyn becoming Prime Minister and the Tories out of power for 20 years (or longer if they split) after selling 70% of their voters down the river!

    Oh and don't forget the campaign for Real Brexit begins in earnest on 30th March 2019.
    The campaign for real Brexit will be still born because Brexit will have been delivered. We will have gone so far down the road, like Norwegians we will boast we are not in EU. The bits we are in will be known as sane Brexit. So it won’t ever get the same traction with the electorate as this Brexit did, the new campaign would be arguing specifically against sane Brexit, not all EU membership. It will also forever be outgunned in the commons.
    A very plausible outcome. I think a future Labour government will take us back into the SM as well. We will be Norway with more clout. Switzerland with more people.

    Some kind of restricted FoM will be retained, or will return.

    And it will all seem utterly pointless and a waste of time, as a new technological revolution utterly transforms the world and makes creaking 20th century structures like the EU seem increasingly irrelevant (not bad, or good, just irrelevant).

    I agree with Sean T. There’s as a new technological revolution transforming global economy. There’s also container ships and big differences in labour costs between Europe and emerging economy’s.

    There’s also non national ownership sucking sovereignty and control from national governments. Multi nationals is not right word anymore as there is nothing national about them. They own something they can produce and sell, they have leverage to drive down pay and conditions, or move production elsewhere in the world.

    There’s also places like Britain, Germany, whose demographic time bombs will creak their accustomed welfare systems and state spending. Future generations will be poorer.

    And Brexit doesn’t supply these answers.

    There may not even be answers. Like a big wave you cannot run from, you just have to jump into.
  • Options
    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Brexit means UK remains in the customs union? EU should be pretty happy with that outcome. Add to it UK will defenestrate themselves from all means of influence, Councils of ministers, the commission, all UK MEPs including Farage out of the Parliament, well, from the EU point of view that’s just the cherry on the cake. If UK offers CU+defenestration, EU will bite our arm off to sign this week

    Followed by Corbyn becoming Prime Minister and the Tories out of power for 20 years (or longer if they split) after selling 70% of their voters down the river!

    Oh and don't forget the campaign for Real Brexit begins in earnest on 30th March 2019.
    The campaign for real Brexit will be still born because Brexit will have been delivered. We will have gone so far down the road, like Norwegians we will boast we are not in EU. The bits we are in will be known as sane Brexit. So it won’t ever get the same traction with the electorate as this Brexit did, the new campaign would be arguing specifically against sane Brexit, not all EU membership. It will also forever be outgunned in the commons.
    Your assuming the Commons will be like it is now.

    After Theresa May sells out 70% of her voters Corbyn will win a majority whenever the election is held (I assume it will be next year sometime quite soon after 29th March)

    At that point the Tory Party splits in two, maybe three factions. Who knows what follows that? (and who can say what would come after a Corbyn government?)

    The moment Corbyn becomes PM and the Tory Party splits all bets are off...
    My scenario is much more boring and undramatic than yours. Mine is based on much of your 70% growing to like sane Brexit. What makes you convinced they won’t? It’s so much on the way there, and so many of the main headaches and concerns waved away by magic wand.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,797
    edited October 2018

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Brexit means UK remains in the customs union? EU should be pretty happy with that outcome. Add to it UK will defenestrate themselves from all means of influence, Councils of ministers, the commission, all UK MEPs including Farage out of the Parliament, well, from the EU point of view that’s just the cherry on the cake. If UK offers CU+defenestration, EU will bite our arm off to sign this week

    Followed by Corbyn becoming Prime Minister and the Tories out of power for 20 years (or longer if they split) after selling 70% of their voters down the river!

    Oh and don't forget the campaign for Real Brexit begins in earnest on 30th March 2019.
    The campaign for real Brexit will be still born because Brexit will have been delivered. We will have gone so far down the road, like Norwegians we will boast we are not in EU. The bits we are in will be known as sane Brexit. So it won’t ever get the same traction with the electorate as this Brexit did, the new campaign would be arguing specifically against sane Brexit, not all EU membership. It will also forever be outgunned in the commons.
    Your assuming the Commons will be like it is now.

    After Theresa May sells out 70% of her voters Corbyn will win a majority whenever the election is held (I assume it will be next year sometime quite soon after 29th March)

    At that point the Tory Party splits in two, maybe three factions. Who knows what follows that? (and who can say what would come after a Corbyn government?)

    The moment Corbyn becomes PM and the Tory Party splits all bets are off...
    My scenario is much more boring and undramatic than yours. Mine is based on much of your 70% growing to like sane Brexit. What makes you convinced they won’t? It’s so much on the way there, and so many of the main headaches and concerns waved away by magic wand.
    What you call "Sane Brexit" the vast majority of this group call "No Brexit" - They know they are being sold down the river after Theresa lied, lied and lied again in 2017 - They are having their vote betrayed and their revenge at the ballot box will be swift and brutal.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,578
    SeanT said:

    Foxy said:

    Brexit means UK remains in the customs union? EU should be pretty happy with that outcome. Add to it UK will defenestrate themselves from all means of influence, Councils of ministers, the commission, all UK MEPs including Farage out of the Parliament, well, from the EU point of view that’s just the cherry on the cake. If UK offers CU+defenestration, EU will bite our arm off to sign this week

    If the UK government wish to secure this with a second ref they will do so on yes/no basis like 1975 it will be 60%+ yes. A good chunk of leave and a chunk of remain vote.
    There’s some pncreasing loss of sovereignty to globalisation, and the accelerated pace of multi culturalism.
    history books will agree, despite all this Brexit hoo ha, it was container ships that turned Britain into a third world country.
    Germany has a thriving manufacturing industry despite high wages. It is perfectly possible to have a high skill, high wage economy. Provided you do not bugger up established supply chains and reduce access to your main market.
    Germany is about to be seriously fucked over by Asia (just as Italy etc were before it, Germany is simply higher up the manufacturing food chain)

    Right now Germany is at Peak Export, with a favourable exchange rate (which pauperises its euro neighbours) and Asia still in need of German cars, machinery, quality engineering. Etc. In 5-10 years (maybe less) China will be able to do stuff as good as Siemens, BMW, VW, Adidas, all those little companies in Bavaria - but for half the price. The writing is on the wall.

    Then Germany's economic model collapses. You read it here first.

    What then?

    Ironically France might do better. Anyone can copy a BMW in the end, the German-ness is not intrinsic, it just helps in terms of perception. See how "Made in Japan" went from being a marker of cheap shit to being a guarantor of quality in 20-30 years.

    But you can't steal claret as a brand, or simply reproduce the cachet of "perfume from Paris".

    Certainly Germany, and indeed the rest of Europe faces a demographic challenge, but so does China which is rapidly ageing too.

    Germany is better equipped to survive the next decade, not least because it has had a massive trade surplus for years, and has access to one of the worlds biggest markets.

    Remania will be ok as it is much less reliant on manufacturing than Leaverstan. For present our creative industries are world beaters. @roger will be subsidising Hartlepool for years yet, but don't expect them to be grateful.

    In other news it looks as if Britain's small fishermen are kippered too:

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1050880351667740677?s=19
  • Options
    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Brexit means UK remains in the customs union? EU should be pretty happy with that outcome. Add to it UK will defenestrate themselves from all means of influence, Councils of ministers, the commission, all UK MEPs including Farage out of the Parliament, well, from the EU point of view that’s just the cherry on the cake. If UK offers CU+defenestration, EU will bite our arm off to sign this week

    Followed by Corbyn becoming Prime Minister and the Tories out of power for 20 years (or longer if they split) after selling 70% of their voters down the river!

    Oh and don't forget the campaign for Real Brexit begins in earnest on 30th March 2019.
    The campaign for real Brexit will be still born because Brexit will have been delivered. We will have gone so far down the road, like Norwegians we will boast we are not in EU. The bits we are in will be known as sane Brexit. So it won’t ever get the same traction with the electorate as this Brexit did, the new campaign would be arguing specifically against sane Brexit, not all EU membership. It will also forever be outgunned in the commons.
    Your assuming the Commons will be like it is now.

    After Theresa May sells out 70% of her voters Corbyn will win a majority whenever the election is held (I assume it will be next year sometime quite soon after 29th March)

    At that point the Tory Party splits in two, maybe three factions. Who knows what follows that? (and who can say what would come after a Corbyn government?)

    The moment Corbyn becomes PM and the Tory Party splits all bets are off...
    My scenario is much more boring and undramatic than yours. Mine is based on much of your 70% growing to like sane Brexit. What makes you convinced they won’t? It’s so much on the way there, and so many of the main headaches and concerns waved away by magic wand.
    What you call "Sane Brexit" the vast majority of this group call "No Brexit" - They know they are being sold down the river after Theresa lied, lied and lied again in 2017 - They are having their vote betrayed and their revenge at the ballot box will be swift and brutal.
    Do you see sovereignty and control taken back from EU, or already lost to globalisation?
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,578

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Brexit means UK remains in the customs union? EU should be pretty happy with that outcome. Add to it UK will defenestrate themselves from all means of influence, Councils of ministers, the commission, all UK MEPs including Farage out of the Parliament, well, from the EU point of view that’s just the cherry on the cake. If UK offers CU+defenestration, EU will bite our arm off to sign this week

    Followed by Corbyn becoming Prime Minister and the Tories out of power for 20 years (or longer if they split) after selling 70% of their voters down the river!

    Oh and don't forget the campaign for Real Brexit begins in earnest on 30th March 2019.
    The campaign for real Brexit will be still born because Brexit will have been delivered. We will have gone so far down the road, like Norwegians we will boast we are not in EU. The bits we are in will be known as sane Brexit. So it won’t ever get the same traction with the electorate as this Brexit did, the new campaign would be arguing specifically against sane Brexit, not all EU membership. It will also forever be outgunned in the commons.
    Your assuming the Commons will be like it is now.

    After Theresa May sells out 70% of her voters Corbyn will win a majority whenever the election is held (I assume it will be next year sometime quite soon after 29th March)

    At that point the Tory Party splits in two, maybe three factions. Who knows what follows that? (and who can say what would come after a Corbyn government?)

    The moment Corbyn becomes PM and the Tory Party splits all bets are off...
    My scenario is much more boring and undramatic than yours. Mine is based on much of your 70% growing to like sane Brexit. What makes you convinced they won’t? It’s so much on the way there, and so many of the main headaches and concerns waved away by magic wand.
    What you call "Sane Brexit" the vast majority of this group call "No Brexit" - They know they are being sold down the river after Theresa lied, lied and lied again in 2017 - They are having their vote betrayed and their revenge at the ballot box will be swift and brutal.
    Do you see sovereignty and control taken back from EU, or already lost to globalisation?
    Globalisation is just a mask for unaccountable capitalism, it won't be any less comfortable than being fleeced by indigenous unaccountable capitalists.

    "When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called the People's Stick."

    Mikhail Bakunin
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,987
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I find the story about Kashoggi, the journalist apparently murdered within the Saudi consulate in Istanbul astounding.

    Why is this any different from the Skripal case? Why shouldn’t we be placing immediate sanctions on the Saudi regime? The idea of treating a country which treats people like this - and this is hardly the only example of repellent behaviour by the Saudis - as our ally is grotesque.

    It's different from Skripal because whatever happened did not happen in the UK nor, as far as we know, have any Brits died as a result of it.
    Other countries imposed sanctions on Russia even though they weren’t directly affected by what happened in Salisbury nor were any of their citizens impacted.

    So, sorry, I think this is very similar. Such behaviour is completely beyond the pale and the civilised world should call the Saudis out on it not turn a blind eye.
    I completely agree.
  • Options

    SeanT said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Brexit means UK remains in the customs union? EU should be pretty happy with that outcome. Add to it UK will defenestrate themselves from all means of influence, Councils of ministers, the commission, all UK MEPs including Farage out of the Parliament, well, from the EU point of view that’s just the cherry on the cake. If UK offers CU+defenestration, EU will bite our arm off to sign this week

    Followed by Corbyn becoming Prime Minister and the Tories out of power for 20 years (or longer if they split) after selling 70% of their voters down the river!

    Oh and don't forget the campaign for Real Brexit begins in earnest on 30th March 2019.
    The campaign for real Brexit will be still born because Brexit will have been delivered. We will have gone so far down the road, like Norwegians we will boast we are not in EU. The bits we are in will be known as sane Brexit. So it won’t ever get the same traction with the electorate as this Brexit did, the new campaign would be arguing specifically against sane Brexit, not all EU membership. It will also forever be outgunned in the commons.
    A very plausible outcome. I think a future Labour government will take us back into the SM as well. We will be Norway with more clout. Switzerland with more people.

    Some kind of restricted FoM will be retained, or will return.

    And it will all seem utterly pointless and a waste of time, as a new technological revolution utterly transforms the world and makes creaking 20th century structures like the EU seem increasingly irrelevant (not bad, or good, just irrelevant).

    There’s also non national ownership sucking sovereignty and control from national governments. Multi nationals is not right word anymore as there is nothing national about them. They own something they can produce and sell, they have leverage to drive down pay and conditions, or move production elsewhere in the world.
    Companies of nowhere :wink:
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,980
    SeanT said:

    Foxy said:

    SeanT said:

    Foxy said:

    Brexit means UK remains in the customs union? EU should be pretty happy with that outcome. Add to it UK will defenestrate themselves from all means of influence, Councils of ministers, the commission, all UK MEPs including Farage out of the Parliament, well, from the EU point of view that’s just the cherry on the cake. If UK offers CU+defenestration, EU will bite our arm off to sign this week

    If the UK governmen of remain vote.
    There’s some pncreasing loss of sovereignty to globalisation, and the accelerated pace of multi culturalism.
    history books will agree, despite all this Brexit hoo ha, it was container ships that turned Britain into a third world country.
    Germany has a thain market.
    Germany is a

    Then Germanhe cachet of "perfume from Paris".

    Certainly Germany, and indeedgrateful.

    In other news it looks as if Britain's small fishermen are kippered too:

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1050880351667740677?s=19
    Germany is fucked, nothing you say challenges that. Its main exports are the next on the target list for Asia to usurp. High end engineering, high quality manufacturing, and so forth. What happened to British manufacturing will happen to Germany. It is just a fact of life. Teutons don't get to live in a different reality.

    And then ageing China will get eaten up by India and so on, and so forth.

    Where does that leave us? Who knows. But the continental Europeans have many reasons to fear the future, and shudder, just like the UK. I doubt Brexit will be the last populist revolt.

    What IS an unforced error is Germany unilaterally deciding to (temporarily, and uselessly) try and solve its demographic problems by importing 1m unvetted Syrian and African migrants in a year; Clearly insane. It will go down as an historic calamity.

    Germany was desirable enough, as a location, to carefully choose and select future Germans (as they used to do, very sensibly). Instead Mad Merkel just opened the gates. Crazy old lady.
    The largest population growth over this century will be in Africa, even more so than in India but it remains gdp per capita rather than gdp which should be the real measure of a nation's success
  • Options
    Foxy said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Brexit means UK remains in the customs union? EU should be pretty happy with that outcome. Add to it UK will defenestrate themselves from all means of influence, Councils of ministers, the commission, all UK MEPs including Farage out of the Parliament, well, from the EU point of view that’s just the cherry on the cake. If UK offers CU+defenestration, EU will bite our arm off to sign this week


    Oh and don't forget the campaign for Real Brexit begins in earnest on 30th March 2019.
    The campaign for real Brexit will be still born because Brexit will have been delivered. We will have gone so far down the road, like Norwegians we will boast we are not in EU. The bits we are in will be known as sane Brexit. So it won’t ever get the same traction with the electorate as this Brexit did, the new campaign would be arguing specifically against sane Brexit, not all EU membership. It will also forever be outgunned in the commons.
    Your assuming the Commons will be like it is now.

    After Theresa May sells out 70% of her voters Corbyn will win a majority whenever the election is held (I assume it will be next year sometime quite soon after 29th March)

    My scenario is much more boring and undramatic than yours. Mine is based on much of your 70% growing to like sane Brexit. What makes you convinced they won’t? It’s so much on the way there, and so many of the main headaches and concerns waved away by magic wand.
    What you call "Sane Brexit" the vast majority of this group call "No Brexit" - They know they are being sold down the river after Theresa lied, lied and lied again in 2017 - They are having their vote betrayed and their revenge at the ballot box will be swift and brutal.
    Do you see sovereignty and control taken back from EU, or already lost to globalisation?
    Globalisation is just a mask for unaccountable capitalism, it won't be any less comfortable than being fleeced by indigenous unaccountable capitalists.

    "When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called the People's Stick."

    Mikhail Bakunin
    Globalisation is not a mask for anything. It’s just change sucking sovereignty and control from national governments people and politicians have been slow to cotton onto and get a handle on. Go listen to Blair’s speeches where he talks only of opportunity for Britain from globalisation. Those speeches aren’t dating well.
  • Options

    SeanT said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Brexit means UK remains in the customs union? EU should be pretty happy with that outcome. Add to it UK will defenestrate themselves from all means of influence, Councils of ministers, the commission, all UK MEPs including Farage out of the Parliament, well, from the EU point of view that’s just the cherry on the cake. If UK offers CU+defenestration, EU will bite our arm off to sign this week

    Followed by Corbyn becoming Prime Minister and the Tories out of power for 20 years (or longer if they split) after selling 70% of their voters down the river!

    Oh and don't forget the campaign for Real Brexit begins in earnest on 30th March 2019.
    The campaign for real Brexit will be still born because Brexit will have been delivered. We will have gone so far down the road, like Norwegians we will boast we are not in EU. The bits we are in will be known as sane Brexit. So it won’t ever get the same traction with the electorate as this Brexit did, the new campaign would be arguing specifically against sane Brexit, not all EU membership. It will also forever be outgunned in the commons.
    A very plausible outcome. I think a future Labour government will take us back into the SM as well. We will be Norway with more clout. Switzerland with more people.

    Some kind of restricted FoM will be retained, or will return.

    And it will all seem utterly pointless and a waste of time, as a new technological revolution utterly transforms the world and makes creaking 20th century structures like the EU seem increasingly irrelevant (not bad, or good, just irrelevant).

    There’s also non national ownership sucking sovereignty and control from national governments. Multi nationals is not right word anymore as there is nothing national about them. They own something they can produce and sell, they have leverage to drive down pay and conditions, or move production elsewhere in the world.
    Companies of nowhere :wink:
    Companies or just owners? Funds?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,980
    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Brexit means UK remains in the customs union? EU should be pretty happy with that outcome. Add to it UK will defenestrate themselves from all means of influence, Councils of ministers, the commission, all UK MEPs including Farage out of the Parliament, well, from the EU point of view that’s just the cherry on the cake. If UK offers CU+defenestration, EU will bite our arm off to sign this week

    Followed by Corbyn becoming Prime Minister and the Tories out of power for 20 years (or longer if they split) after selling 70% of their voters down the river!

    Oh and don't forget the campaign for Real Brexit begins in earnest on 30th March 2019.
    The campaign for real Brexit will be still born because Brexit will have been delivered. We will have gone so far down the road, like Norwegians we will boast we are not in EU. The bits we are in will be known as sane Brexit. So it won’t ever get the same traction with the electorate as this Brexit did, the new campaign would be arguing specifically against sane Brexit, not all EU membership. It will also forever be outgunned in the commons.
    Your assuming the Commons will be like it is now.

    After Theresa May sells out 70% of her voters Corbyn will win a majority whenever the election is held (I assume it will be next year sometime quite soon after 29th March)

    At that point the Tory Party splits in two, maybe three factions. Who knows what follows that? (and who can say what would come after a Corbyn government?)

    The moment Corbyn becomes PM and the Tory Party splits all bets are off...
    My scenario is much more boring and undramatic than yours. Mine is based on much of your 70% growing to like sane Brexit. What makes you convinced they won’t? It’s so much on the way there, and so many of the main headaches and concerns waved away by magic wand.
    What you call "Sane Brexit" the vast majority of this group call "No Brexit" - They know they are being sold down the river after Theresa lied, lied and lied again in 2017 - They are having their vote betrayed and their revenge at the ballot box will be swift and brutal.
    So you keep saying yet the Tories are 4% ahead in the latest YouGov and 1% ahead in the latest Survation even after Chequers and May's moves towards a softer Brexit to get a Deal with the EU and a rising UKIP vote
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,980
    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Brexit means UK remains in the customs union? EU should be pretty happy with that outcome. Add to it UK will defenestrate themselves from all means of influence, Councils of ministers, the commission, all UK MEPs including Farage out of the Parliament, well, from the EU point of view that’s just the cherry on the cake. If UK offers CU+defenestration, EU will bite our arm off to sign this week

    Followed by Corbyn becoming Prime Minister and the Tories out of power for 20 years (or longer if they split) after selling 70% of their voters down the river!

    Oh and don't forget the campaign for Real Brexit begins in earnest on 30th March 2019.
    The campaign for real Brexit will be still born because Brexit will have been delivered. We will have gone so far down the road, like Norwegians we will boast we are not in EU. The bits we are in will be known as sane Brexit. So it won’t ever get the same traction with the electorate as this Brexit did, the new campaign would be arguing specifically against sane Brexit, not all EU membership. It will also forever be outgunned in the commons.
    Your assuming the Commons will be like it is now.

    After Theresa May sells out 70% of her voters Corbyn will win a majority whenever the election is held (I assume it will be next year sometime quite soon after 29th March)

    At that point the Tory Party splits in two, maybe three factions. Who knows what follows that? (and who can say what would come after a Corbyn government?)

    The moment Corbyn becomes PM and the Tory Party splits all bets are off...
    Corbyn will not win a majority, the only way he becomes PM is propped up by the SNP and LDs and with the Tories likely still largest party
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,980
    AndyJS said:

    NYT live phone polling in Pennsylvania 1st District. Just about to reach 250 respondents which is the minimum required:

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/upshot/elections-poll-pa01-2.html

    Scott Wallace the Democratic candidate leads by 11% currently
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    There’s another angle on the fish. Britain won’t have a fishing industry if it leaves EU, because in our waters is adult fish. But the adult fish are smaller fish in waters of other EU countries, who are forbidden from fishing them till they become bigger and live in our waters. That’s why it seems unfair EU says everyone can pile into British waters, it’s where adult fish hang out. It’s a form of EU migration we really do need to happen.
    Once we are out the EU we can’t stop Denmark taking the growing fish out their waters, before they migrate into ours, we will go out to fish and there won’t be anything there!
    It will be something fishy, and it will be the state of Denmark
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,980
    edited October 2018

    Foxy said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Brexit means UK remains in the customs union? EU should be pretty happy with th EU will bite our arm off to sign this week


    Oh and don't forget the campaign for Real Brexit begins in earnest on 30th March 2019.
    The campaign for real Brexit will be still born because Bcommons.
    Your assuming the Commons will be like it is now.

    After Theresa May sells out 70% of her voters Corbyn will win a majority whenever the election is held (I assume it will be next year sometime quite soon after 29th March)

    My scenario is much more boring and undramatic than yours. Mine is based on much of your 70% growing to like sane Brexit. What makes you convinced they won’t? It’s so much on the way there, and so many of the main headaches and concerns waved away by magic wand.
    What you call "Sane Brexit" the venge at the ballot box will be swift and brutal.
    Do you see sovereignty and control taken back from EU, or already lost to globalisation?
    Globalisation iunin
    Globalisation is not a mask for anything. It’s just change sucking sovereignty and control from national governments people and politicians have been slow to cotton onto and get a handle on. Go listen to Blair’s speeches where he talks only of opportunity for Britain from globalisation. Those speeches aren’t dating well.
    Come December of the leaders of the world's largest economies, the USA, China, India, Brazil, Russia, arguably Japan all of them will be likely be led by leaders who are more nationalist than globalist. France has a president who is deeply unpopular and whose main opponent is still a nationalist. Italy has a nationalist interior minister whose party leads Italian polls and governs with populist semi anarchists. Britain is dealing with a nationalist Brexit revolt with a populist leftist in the wings, Mexico will be led by a populist leftist when he is inaugurated in December and of the leading Democratic candidates to take on Trump in 2020, Biden, Warren and Sanders, 2/3 of them are leftist populists.

    Juncker, Macron, Trudeau and Merkel are the only real globalist world leaders left at the moment and of those only Trudeau in Canada is still holding a reasonable poll lead (Juncker of course is also facing a nationalist surge in the European Parliament elections next year). Globalism is facing a nationalist and populist left revolt across the world
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    justin124 said:



    Until the Independence Referendum many Tories did support the SNP in Scotland on an anti-Labour tactical basis. Much - though not all - of the Tory recovery there can be explained by such voters having returned to their Tory roots and helped deliver significant gains in the rural areas in 2017. Thus, many of those people who were voting SNP from the early 1970s until 2015 have now ceased to do so. The SNP has been able to offset the loss of that support by winning votes in the Labour heartlands - but Labour remains at an average of circa 26% in polls there ie pretty level pegging with the Tories.
    I have - and have always had - a much more hostile view of Nationalism than you appear to hold, and reject it in all its forms whether found in the BNP - UKIP - the right wing of the Tory party - the SNP - or Plaid Cymru.

    Except the voter switching matrix doesn't support that theory. Conservatives in Scotland made almost the entirety of their gains from Unionist Lib Dem voters who switched en masse. They also benefitted from clear differential turnout effects - the SNP vote is a large proportion lazy voters.
    Most unlikely to be true - there will have been a great deal of churn with switches from LibDem to SNP offset by SNP to Tory.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,936
    Barnesian said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I find the story about Kashoggi, the journalist apparently murdered within the Saudi consulate in Istanbul astounding.

    Why is this any different from the Skripal case? Why shouldn’t we be placing immediate sanctions on the Saudi regime? The idea of treating a country which treats people like this - and this is hardly the only example of repellent behaviour by the Saudis - as our ally is grotesque.

    It's different from Skripal because whatever happened did not happen in the UK nor, as far as we know, have any Brits died as a result of it.
    Other countries imposed sanctions on Russia even though they weren’t directly affected by what happened in Salisbury nor were any of their citizens impacted.

    So, sorry, I think this is very similar. Such behaviour is completely beyond the pale and the civilised world should call the Saudis out on it not turn a blind eye.
    I completely agree.
    +1
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    SeanT said:

    Foxy said:

    SeanT said:

    Foxy said:

    Brexit means UK remains in the customs union? EU should be pretty happy with that outcome. Add to it UK will defenestrate themselves from all means of influence, Councils of ministers, the commission, all UK MEPs including Farage out of the Parliament, well, from the EU point of view that’s just the cherry on the cake. If UK offers CU+defenestration, EU will bite our arm off to sign this week

    If the UK governmen of remain vote.
    There’s some pncreasing loss of sovereignty to globalisation, and the accelerated pace of multi culturalism.
    history books will agree, despite all this Brexit hoo ha, it was container ships that turned Britain into a third world country.
    Germany has a thain market.
    Germany is a

    Then Germanhe cachet of "perfume from Paris".

    Germany is fucked, nothing you say challenges that. Its main exports are the next on the target list for Asia to usurp. High end engineering, high quality manufacturing, and so forth. What happened to British manufacturing will happen to Germany. It is just a fact of life. Teutons don't get to live in a different reality.

    And then ageing China will get eaten up by India and so on, and so forth.

    Where does that leave us? Who knows. But the continental Europeans have many reasons to fear the future, and shudder, just like the UK. I doubt Brexit will be the last populist revolt.

    What IS an unforced error is Germany unilaterally deciding to (temporarily, and uselessly) try and solve its demographic problems by importing 1m unvetted Syrian and African migrants in a year; Clearly insane. It will go down as an historic calamity.

    Germany was desirable enough, as a location, to carefully choose and select future Germans (as they used to do, very sensibly). Instead Mad Merkel just opened the gates. Crazy old lady.
    Again I agree with Sean T. At the time it was presented as some kind of humanitarian act of kindness by Merkel to Syrian refugees, but what was really on their mind was their demographic time bomb.
    How genuine refugees suffered on the Journey. The chaos the migration caused in EU. How it shredded her credibility with her own voters.
    What was old west Germany has had multiculturalism for generations, but not so East Germany. It’s stoked some ugly sentiment. As soon as we hear pupils urged to grass on their teacher as soon as teacher talks politics, like how it was back in the thirties, then let that be Merkels legacy.
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    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:


    Oh
    My scenario is much more boring and undramatic than yours. Mine is based on much of your 70% growing to like sane Brexit. What makes you convinced they won’t? It’s so much on the way there, and so many of the main headaches and concerns waved away by magic wand.
    Do you see sovereignty and control taken back from EU, or already lost to globalisation?
    Globalisation iunin
    Globalisation is not a mask for anything. It’s just change sucking sovereignty and control from national governments people and politicians have been slow to cotton onto and get a handle on. Go listen to Blair’s speeches where he talks only of opportunity for Britain from globalisation. Those speeches aren’t dating well.
    Come December of the leaders of the world's largest economies, the USA, China, India, Brazil, Russia, arguably Japan all of them will be likely be led by leaders who are more nationalist than globalist. France has a president who is deeply unpopular and whose main opponent is still a nationalist. Italy has a nationalist interior minister whose party leads Italian polls and governs with populist semi anarchists. Britain is dealing with a nationalist Brexit revolt with a populist leftist in the wings, Mexico will be led by a populist leftist when he is inaugurated in December and of the leading Democratic candidates to take on Trump in 2020, Biden, Warren and Sanders, 2/3 of them are leftist populists.

    Juncker, Macron, Trudeau and Merkel are the only real globalist world leaders left at the moment and of those only Trudeau in Canada is still holding a reasonable poll lead (Juncker of course is also facing a nationalist surge in the European Parliament elections next year). Globalism is facing a nationalist and populist left revolt across the world
    I don’t disagree. It means prime minister Blair was talking bollocks when he talked up opportunities of globalisation, whilst not mitigating car plant at Dagenham shedding thousands of jobs and the local council slipping from Labour to BNP.
    But Do you think electing leaders who claim their ideology is patriotism will make slightest difference to the unstoppable rise of globalisation? I don’t. Built into the Brexit vote is disenfranchised people waving their skinny fists at globalisation, but not actually doing a jot about it. The Brexit result doesn’t do a thing about globalisations impact on their lives.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    The House is almost a toss-up according to RCP. Latest forecast is Dem 204, GOP 199, open seats 32.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2018/house/2018_elections_house_map.html
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,599
    Turkish investigators have claimed video and audio recordings exist that prove Jamal Khashoggi was killed, a sign that Ankara is willing to keep up the pressure on Riyadh to back up its claims it has nothing to do with the dissident journalist’s disappearance.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/12/recordings-prove-jamal-khashoggi-killed-turkish-investigators-claim

    Tricky balancing act for the Turks.....given they've evidently bugged the Saudi Consulate
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    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:


    After Theresa May sells out 70% of her voters Corbyn will win a majority whenever the election is held (I assume it will be next year sometime quite soon after 29th March)

    My scenario is much more boring and undramatic than yours. Mine is based on much of your 70% growing to like sane Brexit. What makes you convinced they won’t? It’s so much on the way there, and so many of the main headaches and concerns waved away by magic wand.
    What you call "Sane Brexit" the venge at the ballot box will be swift and brutal.
    Do you see sovereignty and control taken back from EU, or already lost to globalisation?
    Globalisation iunin
    Globalisation is not a mask for anything. It’s just change sucking sovereignty and control from national governments people and politicians have been slow to cotton onto and get a handle on. Go listen to Blair’s speeches where he talks only of opportunity for Britain from globalisation. Those speeches aren’t dating well.
    Come December of the leaders of the world's largest economies, the USA, China, India, Brazil, Russia, arguably Japan all of them will be likely be led by leaders who are more nationalist than globalist. France has a president who is deeply unpopular and whose main opponent is still a nationalist. Italy has a nationalist interior minister whose party leads Italian polls and governs with populist semi anarchists. Britain is dealing with a nationalist Brexit revolt with a populist leftist in the wings, Mexico will be led by a populist leftist when he is inaugurated in December and of the leading Democratic candidates to take on Trump in 2020, Biden, Warren and Sanders, 2/3 of them are leftist populists.

    Juncker, Macron, Trudeau and Merkel are the only real globalist world leaders left at the moment and of those only Trudeau in Canada is still holding a reasonable poll lead (Juncker of course is also facing a nationalist surge in the European Parliament elections next year). Globalism is facing a nationalist and populist left revolt across the world
    Where does phrase “Global Britain” fit into this. Thinking of globalisation as a big dangerous monster, is global Britain us opening our arms to give it a nice big cuddle?
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,980
    edited October 2018

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:


    Oh
    My scenario is much more boring and undramatic than yours. Mine is based y magic wand.
    Do you see sovereignty and control taken back from EU, or already lost to globalisation?
    Globalisation iunin
    Globalisation is not a mask for anything. It’s just change sucking well.
    Come December of the leaders of the world's largest economies, thmber and of the leading Democratic candidates to take on Trump in 2020, e world
    I don’t disagree. It means prime minister Blair was talking bollocks when he talked up opportunities of globalisation, whilst not mitigating car plant at Dagenham shedding thousands of jobs and the local council slipping from Labour to BNP.
    But Do you think electing leaders who claim their ideology is patriotism will make slightest difference to the unstoppable rise of globalisation? I don’t. Built into the Brexit vote is disenfranchised people waving their skinny fists at globalisation, but not actually doing a jot about it. The Brexit result doesn’t do a thing about globalisations impact on their lives.
    It has led to leaders like Trump who are ready to declare trade wars and use tariffs rather than free trade with other nations responding in kind, leaders like Xi who want rigid state control rather than an open and free market, leaders like Bolsonaro who are prepared to clamp down hard and impose a strong law and order and traditional values message, leaders like Salvini and Modi and of course Trump again who will take a tougher line on migration, leaders like Putin who will throw business leaders they think are too powerful in jail.

    Corbyn and Lopez Obrador and Sanders meanwhile promise to tax the rich and reduce privatisation.

    There is nothing in itself wrong with globalisation, free trade, companies able to operate across borders and ease of travel to work and visit as a tourist has reduced global poverty and raised awareness of other cultures. However if too many gains are seen as going to the rich, immigration is seen as reducing wages and threatening cultural cohesion and companies are seen as cutting costs and avoiding tax at the expense of investing in the local area and its workers then inevitably there will be a backlash
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,980
    edited October 2018
    AndyJS said:

    The House is almost a toss-up according to RCP. Latest forecast is Dem 204, GOP 199, open seats 32.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2018/house/2018_elections_house_map.html

    Which really tells us next to nothing if it has 32 tossups.

    538 gives a clearer picture with 227 Democrats and 208 Republicans ie just over 30 Democratic gains on the median forecast and the Democrats having about 9 more seats than the 218 they need for a majority to take control.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2018-midterm-election-forecast/house/
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited October 2018
    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    The House is almost a toss-up according to RCP. Latest forecast is Dem 204, GOP 199, open seats 32.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2018/house/2018_elections_house_map.html

    Which really tells us next to nothing if it has 32 tossups.

    538 gives a clearer picture with 227 Democrats and 208 Republicans ie just over 30 Democratic gains and a Democratic majority of

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2018-midterm-election-forecast/house/
    Wherever you look, things aren't quite as encouraging for the Democrats for the House as seemed to be the case until fairly recently. I got the impression they were about 70% likely to win a majority from the various articles I've read over the last few months.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,980
    AndyJS said:

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    The House is almost a toss-up according to RCP. Latest forecast is Dem 204, GOP 199, open seats 32.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2018/house/2018_elections_house_map.html

    Which really tells us next to nothing if it has 32 tossups.

    538 gives a clearer picture with 227 Democrats and 208 Republicans ie just over 30 Democratic gains and a Democratic majority of

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2018-midterm-election-forecast/house/
    Wherever you look, things aren't quite as encouraging for the Democrats for the House as seemed to be the case until fairly recently. I got the impression they were about 70% likely to win a majority from the various articles I've read over the last few months.
    34 Democratic gains forecast by 538 would exceed the 31 seats the Democrats gained in 2006 when they last took the House.

    Kudos for trying to make this interesting but the Democrats are almost certain to win the House now the only question really is their victory margin.

    It will likely be 2010 in reverse, the Democrats take the House but the Republicans just about manage to hold the Senate
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,599
    UK officials have begun drawing up a list of Saudi security and government officials who could potentially come under sanctions pending the outcome of investigations into the disappearance of dissident journalist Jamal Khashoggi, a source close to both Riyadh and London told The Independent.

    The list being drawn up by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office could be used in case the UK decides to invoke the “Magnitsky amendment,” passed this year, which allows Britain to impose sanctions on foreign officials accused of human rights violations, or to apply restrictions on Saudi trade and travel in coordination with the European Union.


    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/uk-sanctions-saudi-arabia-missing-journalist-jamal-khashoggi-riyadh-jeremy-hunt-a8581181.html
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,599
    https://twitter.com/RVAwonk/status/1050897605419552768

    The Apple Watch? Or cover for Turkish surveillance?
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    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Brexit means UK remains in the customs union? EU should be pretty happy with that outcome. Add to it UK will defenestrate themselves from all means of influence, Councils of ministers, the commission, all UK MEPs including Farage out of the Parliament, well, from the EU point of view that’s just the cherry on the cake. If UK offers CU+defenestration, EU will bite our arm off to sign this week

    Followed by Corbyn becoming Prime Minister and the Tories out of power for 20 years (or longer if they split) after selling 70% of their voters down the river!

    Oh and don't forget the campaign for Real Brexit begins in earnest on 30th March 2019.
    The campaign for real Brexit will be still born because Brexit will have been delivered. We will have gone so far down the road, like Norwegians we will boast we are not in EU. The bits we are in will be known as sane Brexit. So it won’t ever get the same traction with the electorate as this Brexit did, the new campaign would be arguing specifically against sane Brexit, not all EU membership. It will also forever be outgunned in the commons.
    Your assuming the Commons will be like it is now.

    After Theresa May sells out 70% of her voters Corbyn will win a majority whenever the election is held (I assume it will be next year sometime quite soon after 29th March)

    At that point the Tory Party splits in two, maybe three factions. Who knows what follows that? (and who can say what would come after a Corbyn government?)

    The moment Corbyn becomes PM and the Tory Party splits all bets are off...
    Corbyn will not win a majority, the only way he becomes PM is propped up by the SNP and LDs and with the Tories likely still largest party
    A somewhat dramatic analysis from Gin regarding the Cons splitting into three?! (the Torys are arguably one of oldest and most successful political parties in the world).

    That aside, how much of your own cash would you be willing to bet Corbyn can't get a majority? Stranger things have happened. Literally a couple of point swing either away in GE19 (it's coming folks!) changes the future of the country forever.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I find the story about Kashoggi, the journalist apparently murdered within the Saudi consulate in Istanbul astounding.

    Why is this any different from the Skripal case? Why shouldn’t we be placing immediate sanctions on the Saudi regime? The idea of treating a country which treats people like this - and this is hardly the only example of repellent behaviour by the Saudis - as our ally is grotesque.

    It's different from Skripal because whatever happened did not happen in the UK nor, as far as we know, have any Brits died as a result of it.
    Other countries imposed sanctions on Russia even though they weren’t directly affected by what happened in Salisbury nor were any of their citizens impacted.

    So, sorry, I think this is very similar. Such behaviour is completely beyond the pale and the civilised world should call the Saudis out on it not turn a blind eye.
    Have the Turks asked us?
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited October 2018

    Turkish investigators have claimed video and audio recordings exist that prove Jamal Khashoggi was killed, a sign that Ankara is willing to keep up the pressure on Riyadh to back up its claims it has nothing to do with the dissident journalist’s disappearance.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/12/recordings-prove-jamal-khashoggi-killed-turkish-investigators-claim

    Tricky balancing act for the Turks.....given they've evidently bugged the Saudi Consulate

    That was my thought: they really care about this given that they are revealing this

    Edit sceptical in the Apple Watch story
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    Again I agree with Sean T. At the time it was presented as some kind of humanitarian act of kindness by Merkel to Syrian refugees, but what was really on their mind was their demographic time bomb.
    How genuine refugees suffered on the Journey. The chaos the migration caused in EU. How it shredded her credibility with her own voters.
    What was old west Germany has had multiculturalism for generations, but not so East Germany. It’s stoked some ugly sentiment. As soon as we hear pupils urged to grass on their teacher as soon as teacher talks politics, like how it was back in the thirties, then let that be Merkels legacy.

    Merkel unilaterally opening the gates into the EU probably moved enough votes to cause Brexit too.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,149
    edited October 2018

    Again I agree with Sean T. At the time it was presented as some kind of humanitarian act of kindness by Merkel to Syrian refugees, but what was really on their mind was their demographic time bomb.
    How genuine refugees suffered on the Journey. The chaos the migration caused in EU. How it shredded her credibility with her own voters.
    What was old west Germany has had multiculturalism for generations, but not so East Germany. It’s stoked some ugly sentiment. As soon as we hear pupils urged to grass on their teacher as soon as teacher talks politics, like how it was back in the thirties, then let that be Merkels legacy.

    Merkel unilaterally opening the gates into the EU probably moved enough votes to cause Brexit too.
    She didn't have the power to open the gates into the EU and didn't try to do it. What she did was open the gates to Germany to people who were already in the EU, when she'd have been within her rights to shunt them back to other EU countries they'd passed through. Arguably this had the effect of attracting more people into the EU, but let's not rewrite history.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    Again I agree with Sean T. At the time it was presented as some kind of humanitarian act of kindness by Merkel to Syrian refugees, but what was really on their mind was their demographic time bomb.
    How genuine refugees suffered on the Journey. The chaos the migration caused in EU. How it shredded her credibility with her own voters.
    What was old west Germany has had multiculturalism for generations, but not so East Germany. It’s stoked some ugly sentiment. As soon as we hear pupils urged to grass on their teacher as soon as teacher talks politics, like how it was back in the thirties, then let that be Merkels legacy.

    Merkel unilaterally opening the gates into the EU probably moved enough votes to cause Brexit too.
    She didn't have the power to open the gates into the EU and didn't try to do it. What she did was open the gates to Germany to people who were already in the EU, when she'd have been within her rights to shunt them back to other EU countries they'd passed through. Arguably this had the effect of attracting more people into the EU, but let's not rewrite history.
    Unilaterally opening the gates into the EU was exactly how it was perceived. Let's not rewrite history by giving Merkel a free pass for trashing EU immigration controls in her desire to fix Germany's problem.

    Perhaps Tokyo is not the best place from which to measure this?
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,149
    edited October 2018
    On topic I think "No" is good value. There are all kinds of different paths that lead to "No". Individually they're all unlikely but cumulatively they add up to a lot:

    * Deal looks doable not quite done by the deadline and everyone agrees to extend, like every EU deal in the entire history of ever
    * Deal done but rejected by UK or EU parliament, extended so everyone can get their shit together
    * No proper deal, but everyone wants at least some minimal agreements to mitigate the damage
    * UK government falls, EU member states generously agree to give the UK a bit of time so they have someone to negotiate with
    * Re-referendum, ultimately still won by Leave but needs an extension to do it
    * Re-referendum, Brexit cancelled

    The counter-argument is that you need action full agreement by the member states and positive action by the UK parliament (probably) to make it happen, but we're talking about a situation with no great principle at stake (what's a month or two?) where an extension saves everyone a lot of trouble and money, and nobody will want to take the blame for it.
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    ‪Anyone booking European travel beyond Brexit day right now is showing a hell of a lot of faith in Theresa May’s dealmaking ability. For those that are, please DM about these amazing magic beans I am selling at a knock-down price.‬
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    ‪Anyone booking European travel beyond Brexit day right now is showing a hell of a lot of faith in Theresa May’s dealmaking ability. For those that are, please DM about these amazing magic beans I am selling at a knock-down price.‬

    Holiday booked to the USA next summer. But Europe could be better value when the Italian banks meltdown.
  • Options

    Again I agree with Sean T. At the time it was presented as some kind of humanitarian act of kindness by Merkel to Syrian refugees, but what was really on their mind was their demographic time bomb.
    How genuine refugees suffered on the Journey. The chaos the migration caused in EU. How it shredded her credibility with her own voters.
    What was old west Germany has had multiculturalism for generations, but not so East Germany. It’s stoked some ugly sentiment. As soon as we hear pupils urged to grass on their teacher as soon as teacher talks politics, like how it was back in the thirties, then let that be Merkels legacy.

    Merkel unilaterally opening the gates into the EU probably moved enough votes to cause Brexit too.
    She didn't have the power to open the gates into the EU and didn't try to do it. What she did was open the gates to Germany to people who were already in the EU, when she'd have been within her rights to shunt them back to other EU countries they'd passed through. Arguably this had the effect of attracting more people into the EU, but let's not rewrite history.
    Unilaterally opening the gates into the EU was exactly how it was perceived. Let's not rewrite history by giving Merkel a free pass for trashing EU immigration controls in her desire to fix Germany's problem.

    Perhaps Tokyo is not the best place from which to measure this?

    The fact that Germany has no external EU border is as clear from Japan as it is from the UK. How it was perceived = how it was reported, largely by the anti-EU media in the UK.

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    It is always enjoyable to see people railing against globalisation on the internet. Whether we like it or not, it’s not going away.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    Strong stuff from Kinnock. Rather a chilly reply from Thatcher.

    It is worth reminding ourselves at this moment that Corbyn's response was to publish an article calling the number of dead 'a very good start' and to invite senior IRA figures to the House of Commons.

    He is unfit to lick Kinnock's sandals.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181

    It is always enjoyable to see people railing against globalisation on the internet. Whether we like it or not, it’s not going away.

    'We live in a global world these days.' (George W. Bush, who also brought you 'More and more of our imports are coming from abroad.')
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,599
    TGOHF said:

    ‪Anyone booking European travel beyond Brexit day right now is showing a hell of a lot of faith in Theresa May’s dealmaking ability. For those that are, please DM about these amazing magic beans I am selling at a knock-down price.‬

    Holiday booked to the USA next summer. But Europe could be better value when the Italian banks meltdown.
    Might be tricky using ATMs......

    But that's the sensible thing to do - book a non-EU destination - Turkey instead of Spain or Greece, the USA, Canada. Many venture even further - once had trouble pinning down a plumber who was off to Cancun for two weeks.....
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,599

    ‪Anyone booking European travel beyond Brexit day ‬


    Don't you mean 'EU' travel?
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,921
    edited October 2018

    TGOHF said:

    ‪Anyone booking European travel beyond Brexit day right now is showing a hell of a lot of faith in Theresa May’s dealmaking ability. For those that are, please DM about these amazing magic beans I am selling at a knock-down price.‬

    Holiday booked to the USA next summer. But Europe could be better value when the Italian banks meltdown.
    Might be tricky using ATMs......

    But that's the sensible thing to do - book a non-EU destination - Turkey instead of Spain or Greece, the USA, Canada. Many venture even further - once had trouble pinning down a plumber who was off to Cancun for two weeks.....

    If there’s No Deal there are no flights anywhere - at least from any UK carriers.

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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,599

    TGOHF said:

    ‪Anyone booking European travel beyond Brexit day right now is showing a hell of a lot of faith in Theresa May’s dealmaking ability. For those that are, please DM about these amazing magic beans I am selling at a knock-down price.‬

    Holiday booked to the USA next summer. But Europe could be better value when the Italian banks meltdown.
    Might be tricky using ATMs......

    But that's the sensible thing to do - book a non-EU destination - Turkey instead of Spain or Greece, the USA, Canada. Many venture even further - once had trouble pinning down a plumber who was off to Cancun for two weeks.....

    If there’s No Deal there are no flights anywhere - at least from any UK carriers.

    Why?
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181

    TGOHF said:

    ‪Anyone booking European travel beyond Brexit day right now is showing a hell of a lot of faith in Theresa May’s dealmaking ability. For those that are, please DM about these amazing magic beans I am selling at a knock-down price.‬

    Holiday booked to the USA next summer. But Europe could be better value when the Italian banks meltdown.
    Might be tricky using ATMs......

    But that's the sensible thing to do - book a non-EU destination - Turkey instead of Spain or Greece, the USA, Canada. Many venture even further - once had trouble pinning down a plumber who was off to Cancun for two weeks.....

    If there’s No Deal there are no flights anywhere - at least from any UK carriers.

    Technically if there is absolutely no deal there will be no flights anywhere on the planet.

    Is M. Barnier a closet eco-warrior? If so, he hid it well when breaking every rule in the book as French Minister for Agriculture.

    In the real world, I think there would be some fancy footwork to prevent it from happening.
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    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,970
    Must admit I've been thinking that next summer a staycation, rather than our usual two weeks on the Med, would be the better option. It'd be interesting to see how advance bookings are looking for Tui et al.
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    TGOHF said:

    ‪Anyone booking European travel beyond Brexit day right now is showing a hell of a lot of faith in Theresa May’s dealmaking ability. For those that are, please DM about these amazing magic beans I am selling at a knock-down price.‬

    Holiday booked to the USA next summer. But Europe could be better value when the Italian banks meltdown.
    Might be tricky using ATMs......

    But that's the sensible thing to do - book a non-EU destination - Turkey instead of Spain or Greece, the USA, Canada. Many venture even further - once had trouble pinning down a plumber who was off to Cancun for two weeks.....

    If there’s No Deal there are no flights anywhere - at least from any UK carriers.

    Why?

    Anywhere is pushing it!! However, UK permissions to fly to a number of countries - including the US and Canada - are currently based on our EU membership, not on bilateral deals with those countries.

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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,599
    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:

    ‪Anyone booking European travel beyond Brexit day right now is showing a hell of a lot of faith in Theresa May’s dealmaking ability. For those that are, please DM about these amazing magic beans I am selling at a knock-down price.‬

    Holiday booked to the USA next summer. But Europe could be better value when the Italian banks meltdown.
    Might be tricky using ATMs......

    But that's the sensible thing to do - book a non-EU destination - Turkey instead of Spain or Greece, the USA, Canada. Many venture even further - once had trouble pinning down a plumber who was off to Cancun for two weeks.....

    If there’s No Deal there are no flights anywhere - at least from any UK carriers.

    Technically if there is absolutely no deal there will be no flights anywhere on the planet.
    North Korea might have some.....but Boeing or Airbus.....no chance.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,921
    edited October 2018
    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:

    ‪Anyone booking European travel beyond Brexit day right now is showing a hell of a lot of faith in Theresa May’s dealmaking ability. For those that are, please DM about these amazing magic beans I am selling at a knock-down price.‬

    Holiday booked to the USA next summer. But Europe could be better value when the Italian banks meltdown.
    Might be tricky using ATMs......

    But that's the sensible thing to do - book a non-EU destination - Turkey instead of Spain or Greece, the USA, Canada. Many venture even further - once had trouble pinning down a plumber who was off to Cancun for two weeks.....

    If there’s No Deal there are no flights anywhere - at least from any UK carriers.

    Technically if there is absolutely no deal there will be no flights anywhere on the planet.

    Is M. Barnier a closet eco-warrior? If so, he hid it well when breaking every rule in the book as French Minister for Agriculture.

    In the real world, I think there would be some fancy footwork to prevent it from happening.

    In the real world I suspect a lot would depend on UK payment of the money the EU believes it is owed. There’ll only be a genuine No Deal if that money is not forthcoming.

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    ydoethur said:

    Strong stuff from Kinnock. Rather a chilly reply from Thatcher.

    It is worth reminding ourselves at this moment that Corbyn's response was to publish an article calling the number of dead 'a very good start' and to invite senior IRA figures to the House of Commons.

    He is unfit to lick Kinnock's sandals.

    Given Mrs T was writing three days after the attack I think we can forgive a little froideur. As you note, Corbyn would not have written the note Kinnock did. Another reason why he is unfit to be leader of the opposition, let alone PM.

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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,149
    edited October 2018


    Unilaterally opening the gates into the EU was exactly how it was perceived. Let's not rewrite history by giving Merkel a free pass for trashing EU immigration controls in her desire to fix Germany's problem.

    Perhaps Tokyo is not the best place from which to measure this?

    I know how it was *perceived* because I see what's here and in the British press, but that's not what your post says. If you'd said "The *perception* that Merkel unilaterally..." then I wouldn't have quibbled.

    I know we're mainly talking about the cause of the British vote, and the reality isn't relevant to that, and I don't want to make everybody write legalistically. But this is a mistaken perception exists because people make false claims, as you did, so if I see the false claim, I'll correct it (when I can be arsed).

    PS. Less direct exposure to British media is probably actually better for understanding the reality of non-UK European politics, because British media is consistently, astonishingly terrible at reporting it. Basically everything has to be hung around 3 or 4 basic narratives, that are almost entirely detached from reality. We actually have much better, in-depth coverage here.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,599

    TGOHF said:

    ‪Anyone booking European travel beyond Brexit day right now is showing a hell of a lot of faith in Theresa May’s dealmaking ability. For those that are, please DM about these amazing magic beans I am selling at a knock-down price.‬

    Holiday booked to the USA next summer. But Europe could be better value when the Italian banks meltdown.
    Might be tricky using ATMs......

    But that's the sensible thing to do - book a non-EU destination - Turkey instead of Spain or Greece, the USA, Canada. Many venture even further - once had trouble pinning down a plumber who was off to Cancun for two weeks.....

    If there’s No Deal there are no flights anywhere - at least from any UK carriers.

    Why?

    Anywhere is pushing it!! However, UK permissions to fly to a number of countries - including the US and Canada - are currently based on our EU membership, not on bilateral deals with those countries.

    The problem with bilateral deals with the US is their '51% national ownership' requirement - which rather snookers both BA and Virgin.....
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Saw ships going up and down the Norh Sea. All heading to or from Rotterdam. How do we continue to use Rotterdam to distribute goods around the world after Brexit? Assume govt has specific agreements there for non CU deals. Friction in access to Rotterdam could be rather expensive.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,973
    Good morning, everyone.

    What happened at the crossover point?
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,983
    Jonathan said:

    Saw ships going up and down the Norh Sea. All heading to or from Rotterdam. How do we continue to use Rotterdam to distribute goods around the world after Brexit? Assume govt has specific agreements there for non CU deals. Friction in access to Rotterdam could be rather expensive.

    Don't forget May's stunning Africa trade deal. Everything can be frictionlessly transhipped via Cape Town.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    ‪Anyone booking European travel beyond Brexit day right now is showing a hell of a lot of faith in Theresa May’s dealmaking ability. For those that are, please DM about these amazing magic beans I am selling at a knock-down price.‬

    Holiday booked to the USA next summer. But Europe could be better value when the Italian banks meltdown.
    Might be tricky using ATMs......

    But that's the sensible thing to do - book a non-EU destination - Turkey instead of Spain or Greece, the USA, Canada. Many venture even further - once had trouble pinning down a plumber who was off to Cancun for two weeks.....

    If there’s No Deal there are no flights anywhere - at least from any UK carriers.

    Chances of no flights situation out of the Uk by next August less than 0.1%
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    Good morning, everyone.

    What happened at the crossover point?

    Remainers stopped funding the bookies.
This discussion has been closed.