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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Some numbers to show the shallowness of the German car-markers

SystemSystem Posts: 11,017
edited October 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Some numbers to show the shallowness of the German car-markers’ Brexit argument

Total VW car sales UK last year 208,462

Read the full story here


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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    As much as that!
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,804
    Were they legal or illegal when they came off the production line though?
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Do the numbers refer to real life VW sales or VW sales in test conditions? Always important to check with VW.
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    But you forgot to include the Italian prosecco makers. In combination it was a killer argument.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,612
    Up to a point, Lord Copper:

    2017 leading importers of German cars: (Euros, Billion)

    USA: 26.9
    UK: 25.0
    China: 21.0
    France: 16.4
    Italy: 12.4
    Spain: 9.7

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/587701/leading-import-countries-german-motor-vehicles-by-export-value/
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,850
    What about playing card manufacturers.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Up to a point, Lord Copper:

    2017 leading importers of German cars: (Euros, Billion)

    USA: 26.9
    UK: 25.0
    China: 21.0
    France: 16.4
    Italy: 12.4
    Spain: 9.7

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/587701/leading-import-countries-german-motor-vehicles-by-export-value/

    That looks consistent. There is probably a chunky long tail.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,710
    edited October 2018

    Up to a point, Lord Copper:

    2017 leading importers of German cars: (Euros, Billion)

    USA: 26.9
    UK: 25.0
    China: 21.0
    France: 16.4
    Italy: 12.4
    Spain: 9.7

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/587701/leading-import-countries-german-motor-vehicles-by-export-value/

    I suspect the difference is accounted for by Volkswagen cars not manufactured in Germany, in particular China. Ironically we could be importing Chinese manufactured Volkswagens after Brexit.
  • Options
    grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Sigh.

    I honestly thought OGH of all people would understand how production pipelines and inventories work.
  • Options
    grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Anyway, can we all get back to talking about how hilariously and catastrophically euro-fucked we all are thanks to the Idiot May?
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    Yes, certainly a very weak argument from the brexiteers; but the notion that the EU is impossible to leave as put forward by Soubry is perhaps more worrying.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    edited October 2018
    Thw 10.3 million refers to VW Group not VW brand

    VW group sales were about 520k units in the UK last year
  • Options
    grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    TBF Anna Soubry and May are saying the same thing. Only, Soubry is being honest while May is trying to play some weird Jedi mind trick on herself that she's not saying what she thinks she's saying.

    Theresa May is backstopping her own power of thought.
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    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    What about playing card manufacturers.

    Bunch of jokers.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    Delia Smith to lead Saturday's 'People's Vote' March in London.

    Gary Linekar, Dominic West, Lena Beasley, Michael Morpurgo, Tracey Ullman and Andy Serkis have recorded video messages of support. Armando Iannucci, Sir Patrick Stewart, Natascha McElhone and Jamie Carragher have sponsored coaches to the march.

    Mrs Brown star Brendan O'Carroll has told marchers 'It could be the March of your lives.'

    Bob Geldof is also involved and has promised to 'bring democracy to Parliament.'

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/delia-smith-to-lead-march-for-a-people-s-vote-on-brexit-deal-a3962206.html?amp
  • Options
    currystarcurrystar Posts: 1,171

    Anyway, can we all get back to talking about how hilariously and catastrophically euro-fucked we all are thanks to the Idiot May?

    What could she have done different considering the EU's position. All I hear is everyone criticising but no one suggesting anything different that would pass through parliament.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,955

    Thw 10.3 million refers to VW Group not VW brand

    VW group sales were about 520k units in the UK last year

    Also, Porsche, Audi and Lambourghini are presumably not captured in this.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Pulpstar said:

    Yes, certainly a very weak argument from the brexiteers; but the notion that the EU is impossible to leave as put forward by Soubry is perhaps more worrying.

    Ironically if the EU is impossible to leave, then many of the concerns of the Brexiteers were well founded. By leaving we prove we didn’t need to go. By being forced to stay, we probably need to leave. A nice paradox.

    Obviously if we can leave, but choose to stay after all that’s a whole different ball game.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,231
    edited October 2018

    TBF Anna Soubry and May are saying the same thing. Only, Soubry is being honest while May is trying to play some weird Jedi mind trick on herself that she's not saying what she thinks she's saying.

    Theresa May is backstopping her own power of thought.

    This is not the backstop you are looking for.

    Got to be worth a go
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    rcs1000 said:

    Thw 10.3 million refers to VW Group not VW brand

    VW group sales were about 520k units in the UK last year

    Also, Porsche, Audi and Lambourghini are presumably not captured in this.
    Audi, Bentley, SEAT, Skoda and VW in 520k missed Porsche out so should be 535k
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,612
    FF43 said:

    Up to a point, Lord Copper:

    2017 leading importers of German cars: (Euros, Billion)

    USA: 26.9
    UK: 25.0
    China: 21.0
    France: 16.4
    Italy: 12.4
    Spain: 9.7

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/587701/leading-import-countries-german-motor-vehicles-by-export-value/

    I suspect the difference is accounted for by Volkswagen cars not manufactured in Germany, in particular China. Ironically we could be importing Chinese manufactured Volkswagens after Brexit.
    These are imports - but yes, the Volkswagen group has production in the US, China, Brazil, Indonesia, Mexico, Ukraine, Argentina, South Africa, Taiwan and of course the UK. So while OGH is correct that the 'German Car Manufacturer' argument was silly, his point doesn't really support that.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,054
    Jonathan said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Yes, certainly a very weak argument from the brexiteers; but the notion that the EU is impossible to leave as put forward by Soubry is perhaps more worrying.

    Ironically if the EU is impossible to leave, then many of the concerns of the Brexiteers were well founded. By leaving we prove we didn’t need to go. By being forced to stay, we probably need to leave. A nice paradox.

    Obviously if we can leave, but choose to stay after all that’s a whole different ball game.
    It depends how you define "we" and how much you value (or how you define) the integrity of the UK given the political imperative for one part of it to maintain a frictionless border with the EU.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    edited October 2018

    TBF Anna Soubry and May are saying the same thing. Only, Soubry is being honest while May is trying to play some weird Jedi mind trick on herself that she's not saying what she thinks she's saying.

    Theresa May is backstopping her own power of thought.

    May is moving towards giving the Commons a vote on an EUref if No Deal can get through Parliament or staying in the single market and customs union, she can then blame that outcome on MPs not herself if the ERG and DUP complain and if an EUref2 either No Deal or Remain can be blamed on the voters
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,612
    Tusk:

    The European Council will start on Wednesday evening with a debate on Brexit. I have invited Prime Minister May to address the EU27, giving the UK Government's assessment of the negotiations. Later at 27, we will decide on how to take the negotiations forward, on the basis of a recommendation by our chief negotiator, Michel Barnier. As you remember from Salzburg, we wished for maximum progress and results that would lead to a deal in October. As things stand today, it has proven to be more complicated than some may have expected. We should nevertheless remain hopeful and determined, as there is good will to continue these talks on both sides. But at the same time, responsible as we are, we must prepare the EU for a no-deal scenario, which is more likely than ever before. Like the UK, the Commission has started such preparations, and will give us an update during the meeting. But let me be absolutely clear. The fact that we are preparing for a no-deal scenario must not, under any circumstances, lead us away from making every effort to reach the best agreement possible, for all sides. This is what our state of mind should be at this stage. As someone rightly said: 'It always seems impossible until it's done.' Let us not give up.

    emphasis added

    https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2018/10/15/invitation-letter-by-president-donald-tusk-to-the-members-of-the-european-council-ahead-of-their-meetings-on-17-and-18-october-2018/
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    HYUFD said:

    Delia Smith to lead Saturday's 'People's Vote' March in London.

    Gary Linekar, Dominic West, Lena Beasley, Michael Morpurgo, Tracey Ullman and Andy Serkis have recorded video messages of support. Armando Iannucci, Sir Patrick Stewart, Natascha McElhone and Jamie Carragher have sponsored coaches to the march.

    Mrs Brown star Brendan O'Carroll has told marchers 'It could be the March of your lives.'

    Bob Geldof is also involved and has promised to 'bring democracy to Parliament.'

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/delia-smith-to-lead-march-for-a-people-s-vote-on-brexit-deal-a3962206.html?amp

    Let's drink to that!
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    stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,779
    edited October 2018
    HYUFD said:

    Delia Smith to lead Saturday's 'People's Vote' March in London.

    Gary Linekar, Dominic West, Lena Beasley, Michael Morpurgo, Tracey Ullman and Andy Serkis have recorded video messages of support. Armando Iannucci, Sir Patrick Stewart, Natascha McElhone and Jamie Carragher have sponsored coaches to the march.

    Mrs Brown star Brendan O'Carroll has told marchers 'It could be the March of your lives.'

    Bob Geldof is also involved and has promised to 'bring democracy to Parliament.'

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/delia-smith-to-lead-march-for-a-people-s-vote-on-brexit-deal-a3962206.html?amp

    "LET'S BE HAVIN EU VOTE!"
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,231
    So basically these stats are comparing pineapples (on pizza) and peas to vastly overstate German production and vastly understate our imports/ consumption.

    Colour me surprised.
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    DavidL said:

    So basically these stats are comparing pineapples (on pizza) and peas to vastly overstate German production and vastly understate our imports/ consumption.

    Colour me surprised.

    Is a bit like the £350 million per week bull Leave came out.
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    Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,600
    Some numbers to show the shallowness of the "Brexit doesn't matter to Germany" argument:

    List of countries by German net foreign trade surplus (gross exports less gross imports) in 2017 (in Euro billions):
    1. USA 50 bn
    2. UK 47 bn
    3. France 41 bn
    4. Austria 22 bn
    5. Spain 11 bn

    https://www.destatis.de/EN/FactsFigures/NationalEconomyEnvironment/ForeignTrade/Tables/OrderRankGermanyTradingPartners.pdf?__blob=publicationFile
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    What does the EU want at this point? I suspect that its current collective attitude to Britain would be summed up by the refrain of that seminal song by Eamon. It doesn’t want chaos and it would prefer regulated arrangements with a large neighbour with much to contribute once it has had an extensive period of psychoanalysis. Equally, it’s not going to make it easy for Britain, it has no motive to.

    The question that needs answering is how much does it value the convenience of getting Brexit out of the way? Ultimately I expect the answer is “quite a bit”. There’s a fair chance of a concession close when the matter leaves the hands of the Eurocrats and reaches the politicians. They have quite enough other problems to be dealing with.

    Whether that will be enough to overcome the mania of the Parliamentary hardline Leavers must be very doubtful though.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,231

    DavidL said:

    So basically these stats are comparing pineapples (on pizza) and peas to vastly overstate German production and vastly understate our imports/ consumption.

    Colour me surprised.

    Is a bit like the £350 million per week bull Leave came out.
    That’s now being paid? That £350m?
  • Options
    Shares in Manchester United have surged in New York amid reports Saudi Arabia's crown prince is considering a takeover of the club.

    The Sun newspaper reported Mohammed bin Salman, currently battling claims his country has murdered a prominent journalist, was due to meet club co-owner and co-chair Avram Glazer in the kingdom.

    It claimed the prince was interested in supporting the Saudi purchase of a major stake worth about £3bn or a full takeover.

    https://news.sky.com/story/manchester-united-shares-rise-amid-saudi-prince-takeover-talk-11526592
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    HYUFD said:

    Delia Smith to lead Saturday's 'People's Vote' March in London.

    Gary Linekar, Dominic West, Lena Beasley, Michael Morpurgo, Tracey Ullman and Andy Serkis have recorded video messages of support. Armando Iannucci, Sir Patrick Stewart, Natascha McElhone and Jamie Carragher have sponsored coaches to the march.

    Mrs Brown star Brendan O'Carroll has told marchers 'It could be the March of your lives.'

    Bob Geldof is also involved and has promised to 'bring democracy to Parliament.'

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/delia-smith-to-lead-march-for-a-people-s-vote-on-brexit-deal-a3962206.html?amp

    Let's drink to that!
    What will she say if not many turn up?
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    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    So basically these stats are comparing pineapples (on pizza) and peas to vastly overstate German production and vastly understate our imports/ consumption.

    Colour me surprised.

    Is a bit like the £350 million per week bull Leave came out.
    That’s now being paid? That £350m?
    The £350 million was never sent to the EU.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,612

    Shares in Manchester United have surged in New York amid reports Saudi Arabia's crown prince is considering a takeover of the club.

    The Sun newspaper reported Mohammed bin Salman, currently battling claims his country has murdered a prominent journalist, was due to meet club co-owner and co-chair Avram Glazer in the kingdom.

    It claimed the prince was interested in supporting the Saudi purchase of a major stake worth about £3bn or a full takeover.

    https://news.sky.com/story/manchester-united-shares-rise-amid-saudi-prince-takeover-talk-11526592

    MBS? Or “Mister Bone Saw” to his friends...
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    archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612
    currystar said:

    Anyway, can we all get back to talking about how hilariously and catastrophically euro-fucked we all are thanks to the Idiot May?

    What could she have done different considering the EU's position. All I hear is everyone criticising but no one suggesting anything different that would pass through parliament.
    I made a suggestion yesterday:

    - The EU have to commit in the WA that the only end game solution is for a soft border at the NI/ROI land border policed by appropriate technology and that they will work towards that.
    - Deal is based on CETA and this is agreed in transition period.
    - WTO asked to become supervisor and arbiter of any such system - they need to determine what is necessary to comply with WTO rules, provide scope of system and assess when a system is viable.
    - Replace backstop with extendable transition period that can be extended (say) twice for a year only if the WTO declare customs system not viable at that time.
    - After transition period and two extensions deal ends.

    It is reasonable and based on trying to solve the problem. If it didn't pass Parliament it would be sufficient basis for a GE as Tories would be able to campaign and win on this.

    I think the truth is that everyone knows that the UK would accept this and the EU reject it, which frankly says it all, but it would be worth proposing. If the EU were actually interested in the NI border as a real issue, and not just a lever, they would accept this.
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    eekeek Posts: 24,964
    edited October 2018
    Looking at VW's sales compared to 2017

    Sept 17 - 36,332
    Sept 18 - 16,283

    Now August 18 figures are 5000 more than last year but that's still a massive drop...

    And when I compare UK figures to European figures the UK is 12% of the european market.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    Dominic Grieve commits to EUref2 and will not support an implementation period without one

    https://mobile.twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1051857114388463616
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    ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    edited October 2018
    https://www.dw.com/en/hard-brexit-could-trigger-massive-crisis-warns-german-industry/a-45813016

    The above is the German industry bodies view.

    5% of the German economy is directly or indirectly due to trade with the UK.

    Food for thought for Merkel.
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    More important than the number of VW units sold (including Audoi and Porsche) is the profit made in each market.
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    Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,600

    What does the EU want at this point? I suspect that its current collective attitude to Britain would be summed up by the refrain of that seminal song by Eamon. It doesn’t want chaos and it would prefer regulated arrangements with a large neighbour with much to contribute once it has had an extensive period of psychoanalysis. Equally, it’s not going to make it easy for Britain, it has no motive to.

    The question that needs answering is how much does it value the convenience of getting Brexit out of the way? Ultimately I expect the answer is “quite a bit”. There’s a fair chance of a concession close when the matter leaves the hands of the Eurocrats and reaches the politicians. They have quite enough other problems to be dealing with.

    Whether that will be enough to overcome the mania of the Parliamentary hardline Leavers must be very doubtful though.

    I think that 26 countries representing 99% of the population of the remaining EU must be wondering why it has come to a point where a hugely beneficial deal to them has been allowed to be held up by the continuing attempt of the 1 other remaining EU state to compromise the territorial integrity of the UK.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,054

    - The EU have to commit in the WA that the only end game solution is for a soft border at the NI/ROI land border policed by appropriate technology and that they will work towards that.

    That is not acceptable to the UK government which does not under any circumstances want to have to police customs checks of any kind on the Irish border.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,612
    Yes dear. Days with the letter “y” in them “strengthen the case for independence”....

    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1051887175346864128?s=20
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    That's a rubbish stat. How about sales of all German made cars in the UK vs total car sales by German marques made in Germany.

    Also, VW group is way more than just VW as a brand.
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    eekeek Posts: 24,964
    MaxPB said:

    That's a rubbish stat. How about sales of all German made cars in the UK vs total car sales by German marques made in Germany.

    Also, VW group is way more than just VW as a brand.

    Especially considering how little time it took me to get actual figures, VW UK publish their monthly sales every month and carsalesbase provide marque by marque european figures...
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    archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612

    - The EU have to commit in the WA that the only end game solution is for a soft border at the NI/ROI land border policed by appropriate technology and that they will work towards that.

    That is not acceptable to the UK government which does not under any circumstances want to have to police customs checks of any kind on the Irish border.
    Sorry? We are talking about the land border being implemented by technology and checks away from the border. This is not unacceptable to the UK Government. The EU have said that they don't think such solutions exist. This would be a process to see if they can be developed refereed by the WTO, who make such rules. The UK would jump at it.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,231
    HYUFD said:

    Delia Smith to lead Saturday's 'People's Vote' March in London.

    Gary Linekar, Dominic West, Lena Beasley, Michael Morpurgo, Tracey Ullman and Andy Serkis have recorded video messages of support. Armando Iannucci, Sir Patrick Stewart, Natascha McElhone and Jamie Carragher have sponsored coaches to the march.

    Mrs Brown star Brendan O'Carroll has told marchers 'It could be the March of your lives.'

    Bob Geldof is also involved and has promised to 'bring democracy to Parliament.'

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/delia-smith-to-lead-march-for-a-people-s-vote-on-brexit-deal-a3962206.html?amp

    If you had any doubt about which side you wanted to be on, just look at that list. I mean, Christ, enough.
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    archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612
    HYUFD said:

    Dominic Grieve commits to EUref2 and will not support an implementation period without one

    https://mobile.twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1051857114388463616

    Great. That is one more vote to reject May's deal.

    The most worrying feature today for May was the hardcore Remainers saying they won't support Chequers. So they vote down May's deal and then realise there is no majority for anything else and we get no deal. Fine by me.
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    ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    eek said:

    Looking at VW's sales compared to 2017

    Sept 17 - 36,332
    Sept 18 - 16,283

    Now August 18 figures are 5000 more than last year but that's still a massive drop...

    And when I compare UK figures to European figures the UK is 12% of the european market.

    For the German car industry the issue is not really VAG, Merc and BMW it is Opel and Ford.

    http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/opel-vauxhall/

    The text in the above article states "30% of Opel Sales now RHD." Also look at the declining total sales figures in a growing market.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917

    - The EU have to commit in the WA that the only end game solution is for a soft border at the NI/ROI land border policed by appropriate technology and that they will work towards that.

    That is not acceptable to the UK government which does not under any circumstances want to have to police customs checks of any kind on the Irish border.
    But they'd be acceptable in the Irish sea ?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    edited October 2018
    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Delia Smith to lead Saturday's 'People's Vote' March in London.

    Gary Linekar, Dominic West, Lena Beasley, Michael Morpurgo, Tracey Ullman and Andy Serkis have recorded video messages of support. Armando Iannucci, Sir Patrick Stewart, Natascha McElhone and Jamie Carragher have sponsored coaches to the march.

    Mrs Brown star Brendan O'Carroll has told marchers 'It could be the March of your lives.'

    Bob Geldof is also involved and has promised to 'bring democracy to Parliament.'

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/delia-smith-to-lead-march-for-a-people-s-vote-on-brexit-deal-a3962206.html?amp

    If you had any doubt about which side you wanted to be on, just look at that list. I mean, Christ, enough.
    Good lord
    Everyone supporting a second vote seems to be a remainder. Not exactly a consensus..
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    HYUFD said:

    Dominic Grieve commits to EUref2 and will not support an implementation period without one

    https://mobile.twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1051857114388463616

    Great. That is one more vote to reject May's deal.

    The most worrying feature today for May was the hardcore Remainers saying they won't support Chequers. So they vote down May's deal and then realise there is no majority for anything else and we get no deal. Fine by me.
    I am sorry to disappoint. The HOC is hugely anti no deal and it will not happen, trust me.

    It is TM deal if she gets one or as TM said today the HOC will be instructed to sort it out and no deal will vanish
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,054
    Pulpstar said:

    - The EU have to commit in the WA that the only end game solution is for a soft border at the NI/ROI land border policed by appropriate technology and that they will work towards that.

    That is not acceptable to the UK government which does not under any circumstances want to have to police customs checks of any kind on the Irish border.
    But they'd be acceptable in the Irish sea ?
    According to Chris Grayling they're not even acceptable in Dover...
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,710

    What does the EU want at this point? I suspect that its current collective attitude to Britain would be summed up by the refrain of that seminal song by Eamon. It doesn’t want chaos and it would prefer regulated arrangements with a large neighbour with much to contribute once it has had an extensive period of psychoanalysis. Equally, it’s not going to make it easy for Britain, it has no motive to.

    The question that needs answering is how much does it value the convenience of getting Brexit out of the way? Ultimately I expect the answer is “quite a bit”. There’s a fair chance of a concession close when the matter leaves the hands of the Eurocrats and reaches the politicians. They have quite enough other problems to be dealing with.

    Whether that will be enough to overcome the mania of the Parliamentary hardline Leavers must be very doubtful though.

    It is noticeable the EU hasn't budged an inch on the Irish backstop since starting. It has been willing to work around some of the other stuff.
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    StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    currystar said:

    Anyway, can we all get back to talking about how hilariously and catastrophically euro-fucked we all are thanks to the Idiot May?

    What could she have done different considering the EU's position. All I hear is everyone criticising but no one suggesting anything different that would pass through parliament.
    The composition of parliament is also her fault
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Delia Smith to lead Saturday's 'People's Vote' March in London.

    Gary Linekar, Dominic West, Lena Beasley, Michael Morpurgo, Tracey Ullman and Andy Serkis have recorded video messages of support. Armando Iannucci, Sir Patrick Stewart, Natascha McElhone and Jamie Carragher have sponsored coaches to the march.

    Mrs Brown star Brendan O'Carroll has told marchers 'It could be the March of your lives.'

    Bob Geldof is also involved and has promised to 'bring democracy to Parliament.'

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/delia-smith-to-lead-march-for-a-people-s-vote-on-brexit-deal-a3962206.html?amp

    If you had any doubt about which side you wanted to be on, just look at that list. I mean, Christ, enough.
    That was my reaction! Natascha’s okay but the rest are going to preach to the converted not win new supporters
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,612

    currystar said:

    Anyway, can we all get back to talking about how hilariously and catastrophically euro-fucked we all are thanks to the Idiot May?

    What could she have done different considering the EU's position. All I hear is everyone criticising but no one suggesting anything different that would pass through parliament.
    The composition of parliament is also her fault
    I think voters had something to do with it....
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    HYUFD said:

    Dominic Grieve commits to EUref2 and will not support an implementation period without one

    https://mobile.twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1051857114388463616

    Great. That is one more vote to reject May's deal.

    The most worrying feature today for May was the hardcore Remainers saying they won't support Chequers. So they vote down May's deal and then realise there is no majority for anything else and we get no deal. Fine by me.
    So what do you want? What's your plan?
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,612
    The People’s Vote is an organised tantrum, screeching and flailing its arms with the demonic rage of a three-year-old denied a Happy Meal. At first, the campaign claimed to be for a plebiscite on the terms of Brexit but its most visible champions have long since abandoned that pretence.

    They are out to overturn the result of the referendum and, as the EU itself has shown in the past, they are prepared to make the people vote as often as necessary until they come back with the correct answer. The People’s Vote is the political wing of Continuity Remain.


    https://stephendaisley.com/2018/10/15/brexit-fills-me-with-dread-but-peoples-vote-scares-me-more/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
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    eekeek Posts: 24,964

    eek said:

    Looking at VW's sales compared to 2017

    Sept 17 - 36,332
    Sept 18 - 16,283

    Now August 18 figures are 5000 more than last year but that's still a massive drop...

    And when I compare UK figures to European figures the UK is 12% of the european market.

    For the German car industry the issue is not really VAG, Merc and BMW it is Opel and Ford.

    http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/opel-vauxhall/

    The text in the above article states "30% of Opel Sales now RHD." Also look at the declining total sales figures in a growing market.

    That 30% figure is high - in 2017 it was 20.9%
    Ford does seem to be about 30% though (287,396 out of 1.030.074 european sales).
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    Can't Theresa just tear up Chequers and get an essay extension to come up with something more workable? Chequers was only ever conceived to keep Boris on board anyway, and he's proved a complete flop since his flounce. Let's start over!
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400

    What does the EU want at this point? I suspect that its current collective attitude to Britain would be summed up by the refrain of that seminal song by Eamon. It doesn’t want chaos and it would prefer regulated arrangements with a large neighbour with much to contribute once it has had an extensive period of psychoanalysis. Equally, it’s not going to make it easy for Britain, it has no motive to.

    The question that needs answering is how much does it value the convenience of getting Brexit out of the way? Ultimately I expect the answer is “quite a bit”. There’s a fair chance of a concession close when the matter leaves the hands of the Eurocrats and reaches the politicians. They have quite enough other problems to be dealing with.

    Whether that will be enough to overcome the mania of the Parliamentary hardline Leavers must be very doubtful though.

    I think that 26 countries representing 99% of the population of the remaining EU must be wondering why it has come to a point where a hugely beneficial deal to them has been allowed to be held up by the continuing attempt of the 1 other remaining EU state to compromise the territorial integrity of the UK.
    A soft, no check Irish border is also a negotiating aim of the UK as per it's Good Friday treaty obligations. You could just as easily argue that the UK is trying to compromise the territorial integrity of the EU by forcing one of their borders to be unpoliced.
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    StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    Can't Theresa just tear up Chequers and get an essay extension to come up with something more workable? Chequers was only ever conceived to keep Boris on board anyway, and he's proved a complete flop since his flounce. Let's start over!

    She already has. She just can't come up with anything more workable that she hasn't already ruled out
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    currystar said:

    Anyway, can we all get back to talking about how hilariously and catastrophically euro-fucked we all are thanks to the Idiot May?

    What could she have done different considering the EU's position. All I hear is everyone criticising but no one suggesting anything different that would pass through parliament.
    The composition of parliament is also her fault
    I think voters had something to do with it....
    Dave left her with a majority until May 2020.

    She then decided to piss away that majority three years early.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,592

    The People’s Vote is an organised tantrum, screeching and flailing its arms with the demonic rage of a three-year-old denied a Happy Meal. At first, the campaign claimed to be for a plebiscite on the terms of Brexit but its most visible champions have long since abandoned that pretence.

    They are out to overturn the result of the referendum and, as the EU itself has shown in the past, they are prepared to make the people vote as often as necessary until they come back with the correct answer. The People’s Vote is the political wing of Continuity Remain.


    https://stephendaisley.com/2018/10/15/brexit-fills-me-with-dread-but-peoples-vote-scares-me-more/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

    That's as mebbe, but the #peoplesvote campaign is working, and increasingly being talked about as a way out of the mess. Not bad for 6 months campaigning. They changed my view on a second referendum.
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    eekeek Posts: 24,964
    JonathanD said:

    What does the EU want at this point? I suspect that its current collective attitude to Britain would be summed up by the refrain of that seminal song by Eamon. It doesn’t want chaos and it would prefer regulated arrangements with a large neighbour with much to contribute once it has had an extensive period of psychoanalysis. Equally, it’s not going to make it easy for Britain, it has no motive to.

    The question that needs answering is how much does it value the convenience of getting Brexit out of the way? Ultimately I expect the answer is “quite a bit”. There’s a fair chance of a concession close when the matter leaves the hands of the Eurocrats and reaches the politicians. They have quite enough other problems to be dealing with.

    Whether that will be enough to overcome the mania of the Parliamentary hardline Leavers must be very doubtful though.

    I think that 26 countries representing 99% of the population of the remaining EU must be wondering why it has come to a point where a hugely beneficial deal to them has been allowed to be held up by the continuing attempt of the 1 other remaining EU state to compromise the territorial integrity of the UK.
    A soft, no check Irish border is also a negotiating aim of the UK as per it's Good Friday treaty obligations. You could just as easily argue that the UK is trying to compromise the territorial integrity of the EU by forcing one of their borders to be unpoliced.
    Hardly given that the UK and Ireland have had a common travel area for at least 94 years. Now if Ireland was to immediately join Schengen I could just about see an argument but as that isn't the case its the EU making changes here...
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    I think we should have a referendum on whether we should have another referendum.
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    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,988
    edited October 2018
    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Delia Smith to lead Saturday's 'People's Vote' March in London.

    Gary Linekar, Dominic West, Lena Beasley, Michael Morpurgo, Tracey Ullman and Andy Serkis have recorded video messages of support. Armando Iannucci, Sir Patrick Stewart, Natascha McElhone and Jamie Carragher have sponsored coaches to the march.

    Mrs Brown star Brendan O'Carroll has told marchers 'It could be the March of your lives.'

    Bob Geldof is also involved and has promised to 'bring democracy to Parliament.'

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/delia-smith-to-lead-march-for-a-people-s-vote-on-brexit-deal-a3962206.html?amp

    If you had any doubt about which side you wanted to be on, just look at that list. I mean, Christ, enough.
    Good lord
    Everyone supporting a second vote seems to be a remainder. Not exactly a consensus..
    No Leaver will support a second vote in case they lose it. They don't think it should be left to "the people". "The people" have already had their say two years ago (in ignorance of what the real options were) and should just be quiet.

    And if you were in any doubt about which side you wanted to be on, just look at the Leaver side headed by Trump and Putin, and followed by Farage, Johnson, Fox, Rees-Mogg, Grayling.
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    archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612

    HYUFD said:

    Dominic Grieve commits to EUref2 and will not support an implementation period without one

    https://mobile.twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1051857114388463616

    Great. That is one more vote to reject May's deal.

    The most worrying feature today for May was the hardcore Remainers saying they won't support Chequers. So they vote down May's deal and then realise there is no majority for anything else and we get no deal. Fine by me.
    So what do you want? What's your plan?
    Fair question.

    1. I would have never offered the backstop. But even at this stage I still believe that if the UK said to the EU Council that we would accept CETA and pay the Brexit bill but we will not accept a backstop and it will have to be solved by technology or we would go for no deal, they would accept. The backstop is the ONLY thing stopping this deal. In May's plan, it involves so much complexity and cherry picking that the EU know that it will never get done; hence the desire for the backstop. I have never believed that the EU actually think the NI border is not solvable.
    2. I have proposed another option down thread.
    3. If the EU insist on the backstop, I would propose a negotiated no deal as follows:
    - All issues other than Brexit bill and backstop signed as per the draft WA.
    - Delay A50 to 1 January 2019.
    - EU and UK agree to good faith efforts to resolve technical issues (eg flights, certifications) prior to exit.
    - In return, UK will agree to refer the Brexit bill to the ICJ for independent arbitration. However, UK free to argue that no amount is owing and EU can pitch for whatever they like. Result binding on both sides.
    4. If they won't accept this, no deal at 31 March 2019 exit.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,054
    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Delia Smith to lead Saturday's 'People's Vote' March in London.

    Gary Linekar, Dominic West, Lena Beasley, Michael Morpurgo, Tracey Ullman and Andy Serkis have recorded video messages of support. Armando Iannucci, Sir Patrick Stewart, Natascha McElhone and Jamie Carragher have sponsored coaches to the march.

    Mrs Brown star Brendan O'Carroll has told marchers 'It could be the March of your lives.'

    Bob Geldof is also involved and has promised to 'bring democracy to Parliament.'

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/delia-smith-to-lead-march-for-a-people-s-vote-on-brexit-deal-a3962206.html?amp

    If you had any doubt about which side you wanted to be on, just look at that list. I mean, Christ, enough.
    Good lord
    Everyone supporting a second vote seems to be a remainder. Not exactly a consensus..
    There is a whole event within parliament planned for next Monday with voters who've changed their minds from Leave in 2016.
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    It’s not a zero sum game. German cars will not disappear, they’ll just get a bit more expensive. Meanwhile other markets will continue to open up. What Buccaneering Brexiteers say about the declining importance of the Single Market applies even more to the UK market. It is not worth tearing up the rule book just to accommodate us when the big opportunities are elsewhere.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    edited October 2018

    HYUFD said:

    Dominic Grieve commits to EUref2 and will not support an implementation period without one

    https://mobile.twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1051857114388463616

    Great. That is one more vote to reject May's deal.

    The most worrying feature today for May was the hardcore Remainers saying they won't support Chequers. So they vote down May's deal and then realise there is no majority for anything else and we get no deal. Fine by me.
    Chequers was dead anyway as the EU rejected it.

    Given Grieve is now another committed vote for EUref2 along with Rudd etc if No Deal and May's suggestion today she will leave it to Parliament to decide the next course if No Deal we could well be heading for EUref2 or at least staying in the single market
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,317

    I think we should have a referendum on whether we should have another referendum.

    Are you Lord Buckethead?
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    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dominic Grieve commits to EUref2 and will not support an implementation period without one

    https://mobile.twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1051857114388463616

    Great. That is one more vote to reject May's deal.

    The most worrying feature today for May was the hardcore Remainers saying they won't support Chequers. So they vote down May's deal and then realise there is no majority for anything else and we get no deal. Fine by me.
    Chequers was dead anyway as the EU rejected it.

    Given Grieve is now another committed vote for EUref2 along with Rudd etc if No Deal and May's suggestion today she will leave it to Parliament to decide the next course if No Deal we could well be heading for EUref2 or at least staying in the single market
    We see this the same way
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    eekeek Posts: 24,964

    I think we should have a referendum on whether we should have another referendum.

    We also need a separate referendum on the question that will be asked in the referendum itself...
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    archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dominic Grieve commits to EUref2 and will not support an implementation period without one

    https://mobile.twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1051857114388463616

    Great. That is one more vote to reject May's deal.

    The most worrying feature today for May was the hardcore Remainers saying they won't support Chequers. So they vote down May's deal and then realise there is no majority for anything else and we get no deal. Fine by me.
    Chequers was dead anyway as the EU rejected it.

    Given Grieve is now another committed vote for EUref2 along with Rudd etc if No Deal and May's suggestion today she will leave it to Parliament to decide the next course if No Deal we could well be heading for EUref2 or at least staying in the single market
    You need to advise TM that Chequers is dead, as she mentioned about half a dozen times today that she thought that it was still going to solve the NI border.
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    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,988

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dominic Grieve commits to EUref2 and will not support an implementation period without one

    https://mobile.twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1051857114388463616

    Great. That is one more vote to reject May's deal.

    The most worrying feature today for May was the hardcore Remainers saying they won't support Chequers. So they vote down May's deal and then realise there is no majority for anything else and we get no deal. Fine by me.
    Chequers was dead anyway as the EU rejected it.

    Given Grieve is now another committed vote for EUref2 along with Rudd etc if No Deal and May's suggestion today she will leave it to Parliament to decide the next course if No Deal we could well be heading for EUref2 or at least staying in the single market
    We see this the same way
    So do I
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    archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dominic Grieve commits to EUref2 and will not support an implementation period without one

    https://mobile.twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1051857114388463616

    Great. That is one more vote to reject May's deal.

    The most worrying feature today for May was the hardcore Remainers saying they won't support Chequers. So they vote down May's deal and then realise there is no majority for anything else and we get no deal. Fine by me.
    Chequers was dead anyway as the EU rejected it.

    Given Grieve is now another committed vote for EUref2 along with Rudd etc if No Deal and May's suggestion today she will leave it to Parliament to decide the next course if No Deal we could well be heading for EUref2 or at least staying in the single market
    We see this the same way
    Well, to be fair after Salzberg you said that the EU had to engage with May on Chequers or we would have to leave anyway and that we could not possibly stay.

    The EU have not moved at all, on Chequers or the backstop.

    All in all I am hoping that the EU leaders will be rude to TM again this week so we can get you back on the light side...:)
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541

    Shares in Manchester United have surged in New York amid reports Saudi Arabia's crown prince is considering a takeover of the club.

    The Sun newspaper reported Mohammed bin Salman, currently battling claims his country has murdered a prominent journalist, was due to meet club co-owner and co-chair Avram Glazer in the kingdom.

    It claimed the prince was interested in supporting the Saudi purchase of a major stake worth about £3bn or a full takeover.

    https://news.sky.com/story/manchester-united-shares-rise-amid-saudi-prince-takeover-talk-11526592

    Making Glazer an offer he can’t refuse.... ?

    Meanwhile, all those kids dying in the Yemen are presumably being bombed by rogue pilots.
    https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/411411-trump-says-rogue-killers-could-be-to-blame-for-saudi-journalist
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541

    I think we should have a referendum on whether we should have another referendum.


    Yes; yes.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,317
    Jonathan said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Yes, certainly a very weak argument from the brexiteers; but the notion that the EU is impossible to leave as put forward by Soubry is perhaps more worrying.

    Ironically if the EU is impossible to leave, then many of the concerns of the Brexiteers were well founded. By leaving we prove we didn’t need to go. By being forced to stay, we probably need to leave. A nice paradox.

    Obviously if we can leave, but choose to stay after all that’s a whole different ball game.
    That’s nicely put.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541

    I’d prefer something a little closer.
    A silly extra point, perhaps.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Much easier. It’s a much shorter border with fewer crossings and far less densely populated. And there would be a precedent.
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    Nigelb said:


    I’d prefer something a little closer.
    A silly extra point, perhaps.
    You haven't lived until you've fielded at short leg to a batsman that's like pull or a fielded at silly mid off to a batsman that likes to bash spinners that way.
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    Much easier. It’s a much shorter border with fewer crossings and far less densely populated. And there would be a precedent.
    Would it be easier if Scotland signed up to Schengen?
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,317
    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Delia Smith to lead Saturday's 'People's Vote' March in London.

    Gary Linekar, Dominic West, Lena Beasley, Michael Morpurgo, Tracey Ullman and Andy Serkis have recorded video messages of support. Armando Iannucci, Sir Patrick Stewart, Natascha McElhone and Jamie Carragher have sponsored coaches to the march.

    Mrs Brown star Brendan O'Carroll has told marchers 'It could be the March of your lives.'

    Bob Geldof is also involved and has promised to 'bring democracy to Parliament.'

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/delia-smith-to-lead-march-for-a-people-s-vote-on-brexit-deal-a3962206.html?amp

    If you had any doubt about which side you wanted to be on, just look at that list. I mean, Christ, enough.
    Are there any luvvies who *aren’t* going?
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    StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Jonathan said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Yes, certainly a very weak argument from the brexiteers; but the notion that the EU is impossible to leave as put forward by Soubry is perhaps more worrying.

    Ironically if the EU is impossible to leave, then many of the concerns of the Brexiteers were well founded. By leaving we prove we didn’t need to go. By being forced to stay, we probably need to leave. A nice paradox.

    Obviously if we can leave, but choose to stay after all that’s a whole different ball game.
    "Of course it's very sad that we've lost Bob, but paradoxically it does show that his concerns about his water addiction were well founded"
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,378
    edited October 2018
    eek said:

    I think we should have a referendum on whether we should have another referendum.

    We also need a separate referendum on the question that will be asked in the referendum itself...
    The question is simple

    'Do you wish to Remain and save the economy or do you want to destroy the UK, the economy, whilst doing Putin's bidding by voting Leave?'
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    archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dominic Grieve commits to EUref2 and will not support an implementation period without one

    https://mobile.twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1051857114388463616

    Great. That is one more vote to reject May's deal.

    The most worrying feature today for May was the hardcore Remainers saying they won't support Chequers. So they vote down May's deal and then realise there is no majority for anything else and we get no deal. Fine by me.
    Chequers was dead anyway as the EU rejected it.

    Given Grieve is now another committed vote for EUref2 along with Rudd etc if No Deal and May's suggestion today she will leave it to Parliament to decide the next course if No Deal we could well be heading for EUref2 or at least staying in the single market
    We see this the same way
    If May comes back with no deal, she is not going to propose or allow a referendum. She ruled out a second referendum any number of times today. She will either say there is no possible deal and we have to live with it, or resign.

    If her deal is voted down, she is highly likely to resign.

    There is no mechanism by which the HoC can negotiate a deal. To pass legislation, they have to have Government support to even get it on the order paper. A second ref actually does not have anything like a majority in the Tory party, won't solve any problem and will get boycotted by Leave anyway - a Tory Government will not propose it. The only outcome that HoC might try to impose is Norway, but that still requires acceptance of the backstop, and there is not a majority to accept the backstop. The DUP will force a GE rather than accept that.

    A far more likely outcome is May resigning, a Tory leaver taking over (say Raab) and the execution of no deal.
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    StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dominic Grieve commits to EUref2 and will not support an implementation period without one

    https://mobile.twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1051857114388463616

    Great. That is one more vote to reject May's deal.

    The most worrying feature today for May was the hardcore Remainers saying they won't support Chequers. So they vote down May's deal and then realise there is no majority for anything else and we get no deal. Fine by me.
    Chequers was dead anyway as the EU rejected it.

    Given Grieve is now another committed vote for EUref2 along with Rudd etc if No Deal and May's suggestion today she will leave it to Parliament to decide the next course if No Deal we could well be heading for EUref2 or at least staying in the single market
    We see this the same way
    If May comes back with no deal, she is not going to propose or allow a referendum. She ruled out a second referendum any number of times today. She will either say there is no possible deal and we have to live with it, or resign.

    If her deal is voted down, she is highly likely to resign.

    There is no mechanism by which the HoC can negotiate a deal. To pass legislation, they have to have Government support to even get it on the order paper. A second ref actually does not have anything like a majority in the Tory party, won't solve any problem and will get boycotted by Leave anyway - a Tory Government will not propose it. The only outcome that HoC might try to impose is Norway, but that still requires acceptance of the backstop, and there is not a majority to accept the backstop. The DUP will force a GE rather than accept that.

    A far more likely outcome is May resigning, a Tory leaver taking over (say Raab) and the execution of no deal.
    Why would Norway require acceptance of a backstop?
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,054

    If May comes back with no deal, she is not going to propose or allow a referendum. She ruled out a second referendum any number of times today. She will either say there is no possible deal and we have to live with it, or resign.

    Given that you constantly traduce her on everything else, why do you take every statement she makes about this at face value?
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    currystar said:

    Anyway, can we all get back to talking about how hilariously and catastrophically euro-fucked we all are thanks to the Idiot May?

    What could she have done different considering the EU's position. All I hear is everyone criticising but no one suggesting anything different that would pass through parliament.
    The composition of parliament is also her fault
    I think voters had something to do with it....
    Dave left her with a majority until May 2020.

    She then decided to piss away that majority three years early.

    Cameron left May with an impossible task, which she has handled very badly. Amazing luck that in the last eight years we have had the two worst PMs in modern British history shadowed by the two worst Leaders of the Opposition.

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    archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dominic Grieve commits to EUref2 and will not support an implementation period without one

    https://mobile.twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1051857114388463616

    Great. That is one more vote to reject May's deal.

    The most worrying feature today for May was the hardcore Remainers saying they won't support Chequers. So they vote down May's deal and then realise there is no majority for anything else and we get no deal. Fine by me.
    Chequers was dead anyway as the EU rejected it.

    Given Grieve is now another committed vote for EUref2 along with Rudd etc if No Deal and May's suggestion today she will leave it to Parliament to decide the next course if No Deal we could well be heading for EUref2 or at least staying in the single market
    We see this the same way
    If May comes back with no deal, she is not going to propose or allow a referendum. She ruled out a second referendum any number of times today. She will either say there is no possible deal and we have to live with it, or resign.

    If her deal is voted down, she is highly likely to resign.

    There is no mechanism by which the HoC can negotiate a deal. To pass legislation, they have to have Government support to even get it on the order paper. A second ref actually does not have anything like a majority in the Tory party, won't solve any problem and will get boycotted by Leave anyway - a Tory Government will not propose it. The only outcome that HoC might try to impose is Norway, but that still requires acceptance of the backstop, and there is not a majority to accept the backstop. The DUP will force a GE rather than accept that.

    A far more likely outcome is May resigning, a Tory leaver taking over (say Raab) and the execution of no deal.
    Why would Norway require acceptance of a backstop?
    Because the UK can leave the EEA without the permission of the EU. Therefore, the Boles idea of using it as a 'lifeboat' will be the obvious concern - we can join and just leave two years later. The backstop is designed to avoid this circumstance so it will still be required by the EU.
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    Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237

    eek said:

    I think we should have a referendum on whether we should have another referendum.

    We also need a separate referendum on the question that will be asked in the referendum itself...
    The question is simple

    'Do you wish to Remain and save the economy or do you want to destroy the UK, the economy, whilst doing Putin's bidding?'
    We know the question is simple but we also know there are plenty of loons - including many on here who will choose the latter. They'd even kill their mothers if it would get us out of the EU. utterly unhinged.
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    solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623
    Are we going to have a referendum about whether to call the second referendum a referendum or a #PeoplesVote?
This discussion has been closed.