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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » PB Video Analysis: Demographics – What We Can Do

SystemSystem Posts: 11,018
edited October 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » PB Video Analysis: Demographics – What We Can Do

Demographics discussions can depress. The problems – ignored by most politicians – seem vast but distant. Better to let someone else, elected later, worry about them.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Options
    archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612
    First. Like No Deal.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,631
  • Options
    REMAINERS - KNOW YOUR LIMITS!

    An ordinary dinner party, the sort of occasion we all enjoy. The LEAVERs are exchanging witty stories. And look at the REMAINERs; aren’t they pretty? Look at the way they laugh, they’re delightful. But now the conversation turns to more serious matters.

    LEAVER 1:
    “I wonder if the Government should stay out of the EU Customs Union”

    LEAVER 2:
    “I think it should.”

    LEAVER 1:
    “Good. Then we’re all agreed.”

    But oh dear, what’s this? One of the REMAINERs is about to embarrass us all…

    REMAINER:
    “I think the Government should stay in the Customs Union, so that the Pound can reach a level that would keep our exports competitive.”

    The REMAINER has foolishly attempted to join the conversation with a wild and dangerous opinion of his own! What half-baked drivel! See how the LEAVERS look at him with utter contempt!

    LEAVER 2:
    “Alastair, we’re going home!!”

    REMAINERS - KNOW YOUR LIMITS!

    Look at the effect of education on a LEAVER and a REMAINER’s mind. Education passes into the mind of a LEAVER. See how the information is evenly and tidily stored.

    Now see the same thing on a REMAINER. At first we see a similar result. But now look. Still at a reasonably low level of education his brain suddenly overloads. He can't take in complicated information. He becomes frantically and absurdly deranged.

    Look at these venomous harridans. They went to university. Hard to believe they are all under 25. Yes, over-education leads to ugliness, premature aging and beard growth. And ranting on online political betting fora.

    Now, let’s see the proper way.

    LEAVER 1:
    “Good. So we’re all agreed. We should stay out of the Customs Union.”

    REMAINER:
    “Oh, I don’t know anything about the Northern Ireland Backstop, I’m afraid, but I do love little kittens! They’re so soft, and furry.”

    LEAVER 2:
    “What a delightful thought, you dear, sweet, fragile little thing! I adore you, Alastair!”

    REMAINERS - KNOW YOUR LIMITS. In thought, be plain and simple, and let your natural sweetness shine through!


  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989
    edited October 2018

    First. Like No Deal.

    4th like the number of centuries the Union may not reach if No Deal
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The United States is pulling out of the Universal Postal Union.

    For those who don't who or what the UPU is, here's a nice video:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHhkNwE7pr8

    Why?
    China

    https://www.reuters.com/article/usa-postoffice-trump/update-1-trump-pulling-out-of-treaty-that-cut-rates-for-foreign-postal-deliveries-to-u-s-idUSL2N1WX0RG
    Thanks. The US has a point
    Actually, no it doesn't.

    The US is allowed to have its own delivery charges as part of the UPU process. But it can't discriminate. It can't have $0.10 for a British letter from New York harbor to Rochester NY, and $1.00 for a Chinese one.

    It could easily raise delivery rates, but ultimately the Trump administration just HATES multinational bodies.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989
    Having more babies is surely the answer to the demographic problem but then again given we are already one of the most densely populated nations on the planet maybe not and we will just have to save more for our retirement
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,242

    REMAINERS - KNOW YOUR LIMITS!

    An ordinary dinner party, the sort of occasion we all enjoy. The LEAVERs are exchanging witty stories. And look at the REMAINERs; aren’t they pretty? Look at the way they laugh, they’re delightful. But now the conversation turns to more serious matters.

    LEAVER 1:
    “I wonder if the Government should stay out of the EU Customs Union”

    LEAVER 2:
    “I think it should.”

    LEAVER 1:
    “Good. Then we’re all agreed.”

    But oh dear, what’s this? One of the REMAINERs is about to embarrass us all…

    REMAINER:
    “I think the Government should stay in the Customs Union, so that the Pound can reach a level that would keep our exports competitive.”

    The REMAINER has foolishly attempted to join the conversation with a wild and dangerous opinion of his own! What half-baked drivel! See how the LEAVERS look at him with utter contempt!

    LEAVER 2:
    “Alastair, we’re going home!!”

    REMAINERS - KNOW YOUR LIMITS!

    Look at the effect of education on a LEAVER and a REMAINER’s mind. Education passes into the mind of a LEAVER. See how the information is evenly and tidily stored.

    Now see the same thing on a REMAINER. At first we see a similar result. But now look. Still at a reasonably low level of education his brain suddenly overloads. He can't take in complicated information. He becomes frantically and absurdly deranged.

    Look at these venomous harridans. They went to university. Hard to believe they are all under 25. Yes, over-education leads to ugliness, premature aging and beard growth. And ranting on online political betting fora.

    Now, let’s see the proper way.

    LEAVER 1:
    “Good. So we’re all agreed. We should stay out of the Customs Union.”

    REMAINER:
    “Oh, I don’t know anything about the Northern Ireland Backstop, I’m afraid, but I do love little kittens! They’re so soft, and furry.”

    LEAVER 2:
    “What a delightful thought, you dear, sweet, fragile little thing! I adore you, Alastair!”

    REMAINERS - KNOW YOUR LIMITS. In thought, be plain and simple, and let your natural sweetness shine through!


    Sunil, you're late taking your pills again.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited October 2018
    HYUFD said:

    First. Like No Deal.

    4th like the number of centuries the Union may not reach if No Deal
    8th like the number of mutually exclusive and contradictory positions you'll take with absolute certainty if there's a single opinion poll showing them to be the case.

    Still not grasped the fact that unionists oppose this.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,191
    Unless anyone wants a long and sweary rant in which Network Rail and Cross Country will be freely compared to Johnson, Trump, Corbyn, Farage, pineapple on pizza and The Last Jedi, do not ask me about railways for the next several weeks.
  • Options
    "We can diminish the demographic drag."

    Go forth and multiply.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942
    Shout out to @AlastairMeeks for the best philatelic pun of the year on the previous thread.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989
    edited October 2018

    HYUFD said:

    First. Like No Deal.

    4th like the number of centuries the Union may not reach if No Deal
    8th like the number of mutually exclusive and contradictory positions you'll take with absolute certainty if there's a single opinion poll showing them to be the case.

    Still not grasped the fact that unionists oppose this.
    Most Scottish Unionists oppose No Deal.

    As do Northern Irish Unionists beyond DUP hardliners.

    No Deal would be a gift to the SNP and Sinn Fein
  • Options
    archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612
    HYUFD said:

    First. Like No Deal.

    4th like the number of centuries the Union may not reach if No Deal
    You're back! I was worried about you, after TM stated unambiguously in Parliament that she would never support another referendum - bit awkward given you have spend the last twenty four hours insisting that she will.
  • Options
    Mortimer said:

    Shout out to @AlastairMeeks for the best philatelic pun of the year on the previous thread.

    I thought we had perforated stamp puns.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942

    HYUFD said:

    First. Like No Deal.

    4th like the number of centuries the Union may not reach if No Deal
    You're back! I was worried about you, after TM stated unambiguously in Parliament that she would never support another referendum - bit awkward given you have spend the last twenty four hours insisting that she will.
    Eurasia was always at war with Eastasia
  • Options
    HYUFD said:



    HYUFD said:

    First. Like No Deal.

    4th like the number of centuries the Union may not reach if No Deal
    8th like the number of mutually exclusive and contradictory positions you'll take with absolute certainty if there's a single opinion poll showing them to be the case.

    Still not grasped the fact that unionists oppose this.
    Most Scottish Unionists oppose No Deal.

    As do Northern Irish Unionists beyond DUP hardliners.

    No Deal would be a gift to the SNP and Sinn Fein
    Opposing no deal and backing Barnier's deal or Chequers are two very different things. Ruth Davidson et al all oppose Barnier's deal which would be an absolute gift to Sinn Fein by permanently separating NI from GB.

    Which is why Barnier is backed by Sinn Fein and opposed by unionists which you then misread as meaning it's good for the union. If it was good for the union it'd be supported by the unionists and opposed by Sinn Fein for Pete's sake!
  • Options
    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    REMAINERS - KNOW YOUR LIMITS!

    An ordinary dinner party, the sort of occasion we all enjoy. The LEAVERs are exchanging witty stories. And look at the REMAINERs; aren’t they pretty? Look at the way they laugh, they’re delightful. But now the conversation turns to more serious matters.

    LEAVER 1:
    “I wonder if the Government should stay out of the EU Customs Union”

    LEAVER 2:
    “I think it should.”

    LEAVER 1:
    “Good. Then we’re all agreed.”

    But oh dear, what’s this? One of the REMAINERs is about to embarrass us all…

    REMAINER:
    “I think the Government should stay in the Customs Union, so that the Pound can reach a level that would keep our exports competitive.”

    The REMAINER has foolishly attempted to join the conversation with a wild and dangerous opinion of his own! What half-baked drivel! See how the LEAVERS look at him with utter contempt!

    LEAVER 2:
    “Alastair, we’re going home!!”

    REMAINERS - KNOW YOUR LIMITS!

    Look at the effect of education on a LEAVER and a REMAINER’s mind. Education passes into the mind of a LEAVER. See how the information is evenly and tidily stored.

    Now see the same thing on a REMAINER. At first we see a similar result. But now look. Still at a reasonably low level of education his brain suddenly overloads. He can't take in complicated information. He becomes frantically and absurdly deranged.

    Look at these venomous harridans. They went to university. Hard to believe they are all under 25. Yes, over-education leads to ugliness, premature aging and beard growth. And ranting on online political betting fora.

    Now, let’s see the proper way.

    LEAVER 1:
    “Good. So we’re all agreed. We should stay out of the Customs Union.”

    REMAINER:
    “Oh, I don’t know anything about the Northern Ireland Backstop, I’m afraid, but I do love little kittens! They’re so soft, and furry.”

    LEAVER 2:
    “What a delightful thought, you dear, sweet, fragile little thing! I adore you, Alastair!”

    REMAINERS - KNOW YOUR LIMITS. In thought, be plain and simple, and let your natural sweetness shine through!


    Too silly.
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,989

    HYUFD said:

    First. Like No Deal.

    4th like the number of centuries the Union may not reach if No Deal
    You're back! I was worried about you, after TM stated unambiguously in Parliament that she would never support another referendum - bit awkward given you have spend the last twenty four hours insisting that she will.
    "Here are five occasions on which the Prime Minister personally, or her staff, denied that there were plans for an election [in 2017]"

    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/04/five-times-theresa-may-no-10-ruled-snap-general-election/
  • Options
    Can confirm this compelling and scary viewing.

    https://twitter.com/JamieFonzarelli/status/1052605828518371328
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989
    edited October 2018

    HYUFD said:

    First. Like No Deal.

    4th like the number of centuries the Union may not reach if No Deal
    You're back! I was worried about you, after TM stated unambiguously in Parliament that she would never support another referendum - bit awkward given you have spend the last twenty four hours insisting that she will.
    Yes well there is the day job.

    I said May would return to Parliament after No Deal and that remains the case despite your zeal to crash the economy and risk ending the Union with No Deal
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    Enjoyed the video Robert

  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    First. Like No Deal.

    4th like the number of centuries the Union may not reach if No Deal
    You're back! I was worried about you, after TM stated unambiguously in Parliament that she would never support another referendum - bit awkward given you have spend the last twenty four hours insisting that she will.
    Yes well there is the day job.

    I said May would return to Parliament after No Deal and that remains the case despite your zeal to crash the economy and risk ending the Union with No Deal
    You have a zeal to explicitly end the Union by agreeing a deal that puts a border through the Irish Sea and thus end the Union.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989

    HYUFD said:



    HYUFD said:

    First. Like No Deal.

    4th like the number of centuries the Union may not reach if No Deal
    8th like the number of mutually exclusive and contradictory positions you'll take with absolute certainty if there's a single opinion poll showing them to be the case.

    Still not grasped the fact that unionists oppose this.
    Most Scottish Unionists oppose No Deal.

    As do Northern Irish Unionists beyond DUP hardliners.

    No Deal would be a gift to the SNP and Sinn Fein
    Opposing no deal and backing Barnier's deal or Chequers are two very different things. Ruth Davidson et al all oppose Barnier's deal which would be an absolute gift to Sinn Fein by permanently separating NI from GB.

    Which is why Barnier is backed by Sinn Fein and opposed by unionists which you then misread as meaning it's good for the union. If it was good for the union it'd be supported by the unionists and opposed by Sinn Fein for Pete's sake!
    All the Northern Ireland polls show most Northern Irish voters want NI to stay in the single market and customs union and a majority would back a United Ireland if that was not the case. The backstop to keep NI in the single market and customs union could be the only way of saving the UK especially when nationalists only get a majority for independence in Scottish polls with No Deal
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,631
    Another interesting (if concerning) video - thanks!

    The Evening Osborne is also reporting on Geoffrey Cox holding No. 10's feet to the fire:

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/attorney-general-will-be-marking-no-10-s-homework-over-detail-on-brexit-backstop-a3964186.html
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960

    Enjoyed the video Robert

    Thanks Alanbrooke.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    First. Like No Deal.

    4th like the number of centuries the Union may not reach if No Deal
    You're back! I was worried about you, after TM stated unambiguously in Parliament that she would never support another referendum - bit awkward given you have spend the last twenty four hours insisting that she will.
    Yes well there is the day job.

    I said May would return to Parliament after No Deal and that remains the case despite your zeal to crash the economy and risk ending the Union with No Deal
    You have a zeal to explicitly end the Union by agreeing a deal that puts a border through the Irish Sea and thus end the Union.
    No you have a zeal to ensure NI leaves the single market and customs union which really would end the Union.

    The whole UK would stay in the single market and customs union in the transition period anyway and quite likely until a technical solution is found to the Irish border
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189
    Paddington made the Six O'Clock News with the obligatory "nationalise them" vox pop.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    rcs1000 said:

    Enjoyed the video Robert

    Thanks Alanbrooke.
    at the risk of getting lynched the other rmissing part of the jigsaw is to restrict free family planning to create larger families. Now that will be unpopular but it certainly will create more children

    why not sound out Mrs S with the idea tonight:-)
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,631
  • Options
    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869

    REMAINERS - KNOW YOUR LIMITS!

    An ordinary dinner party, the sort of occasion we all enjoy. The LEAVERs are exchanging witty stories. And look at the REMAINERs; aren’t they pretty? Look at the way they laugh, they’re delightful. But now the conversation turns to more serious matters.

    (snipped)

    Much more serious matters (O/T to vent my feelings).

    I have had a complete break from politics for a few days, having been experiencing the joys of rail travel instead.

    I have been really interested to discover that the new improved upgraded-to-overhead-power-at-vast-expense railway has turned out to be simply another way to really, really, really muck things up.

    And apparently I got off very lightly compared to some, at that.

    Good evening, everybody. I hope you have all enjoyed your week so far.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:



    HYUFD said:

    First. Like No Deal.

    4th like the number of centuries the Union may not reach if No Deal
    8th like the number of mutually exclusive and contradictory positions you'll take with absolute certainty if there's a single opinion poll showing them to be the case.

    Still not grasped the fact that unionists oppose this.
    Most Scottish Unionists oppose No Deal.

    As do Northern Irish Unionists beyond DUP hardliners.

    No Deal would be a gift to the SNP and Sinn Fein
    Opposing no deal and backing Barnier's deal or Chequers are two very different things. Ruth Davidson et al all oppose Barnier's deal which would be an absolute gift to Sinn Fein by permanently separating NI from GB.

    Which is why Barnier is backed by Sinn Fein and opposed by unionists which you then misread as meaning it's good for the union. If it was good for the union it'd be supported by the unionists and opposed by Sinn Fein for Pete's sake!
    All the Northern Ireland polls show most Northern Irish voters want NI to stay in the single market and customs union and a majority would back a United Ireland if that was not the case. The backstop to keep NI in the single market and customs union could be the only way of saving the UK especially when nationalists only get a majority for independence in Scottish polls with No Deal
    Why you should be wary of hypothetical polling: http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/09/03/why-you-should-be-wary-of-hypothetical-polling/

    I'll trust the lifelong unionists and my own common sense that breaking up the country to save it is a stupid idea before I trust a hypothetical poll.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,832
    HYUFD said:



    HYUFD said:

    First. Like No Deal.

    4th like the number of centuries the Union may not reach if No Deal
    8th like the number of mutually exclusive and contradictory positions you'll take with absolute certainty if there's a single opinion poll showing them to be the case.

    Still not grasped the fact that unionists oppose this.
    Most Scottish Unionists oppose No Deal.

    As do Northern Irish Unionists beyond DUP hardliners.

    No Deal would be a gift to the SNP and Sinn Fein
    No deal may not be unionists' preferred option, but they may well prefer no deal to an internal border with the rest of the UK. If unionists were happy with what the EU are proposing, it would not be as contentious as it is.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,286

    HYUFD said:

    First. Like No Deal.

    4th like the number of centuries the Union may not reach if No Deal
    You're back! I was worried about you, after TM stated unambiguously in Parliament that she would never support another referendum - bit awkward given you have spend the last twenty four hours insisting that she will.
    Ah Archie *you’re* back!

    Sh%t, showered and shaved I hope.

    You seem to have misunderstood (wilfully?) the WTO position wrt national borders and MFN status.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    People often ignore statistics if they don't fit in with the zeitgeist/narrative of the times. For example, the worst year for London homicides in recent years was 2003 with 204. This year it's going to be about 120, despite the fact that the population of London is about a million higher now than it was in 2003. But I don't remember any panic about homicide in 2003 because attention was largely elsewhere.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_London#Murder
  • Options
    archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612
    Barnesian said:

    HYUFD said:

    First. Like No Deal.

    4th like the number of centuries the Union may not reach if No Deal
    You're back! I was worried about you, after TM stated unambiguously in Parliament that she would never support another referendum - bit awkward given you have spend the last twenty four hours insisting that she will.
    "Here are five occasions on which the Prime Minister personally, or her staff, denied that there were plans for an election [in 2017]"

    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/04/five-times-theresa-may-no-10-ruled-snap-general-election/
    You are telling me the PM is a liar?
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,631
  • Options
    archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    First. Like No Deal.

    4th like the number of centuries the Union may not reach if No Deal
    You're back! I was worried about you, after TM stated unambiguously in Parliament that she would never support another referendum - bit awkward given you have spend the last twenty four hours insisting that she will.
    Ah Archie *you’re* back!

    Sh%t, showered and shaved I hope.

    You seem to have misunderstood (wilfully?) the WTO position wrt national borders and MFN status.
    OK, go ahead, happy to debate as always.

    I think you are saying that if we have a 'soft border' in NI we have to have a soft border everywhere else? I don't believe this is the case.

    The purpose of the soft border is simply a different way of enforcing the same rules. The WTO also have dispensations for these types of situations. So on this basis, I do not believe that the proposed ERG solution is in any way incompatible with WTO rules. And of course, the head of HMCE has already confirmed that in a no deal there would be no need to introduce checks at the border; presumably if it really was against WTO rules May would have him screaming it from the rooftops.
  • Options
    archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:



    HYUFD said:

    First. Like No Deal.

    4th like the number of centuries the Union may not reach if No Deal
    8th like the number of mutually exclusive and contradictory positions you'll take with absolute certainty if there's a single opinion poll showing them to be the case.

    Still not grasped the fact that unionists oppose this.
    Most Scottish Unionists oppose No Deal.

    As do Northern Irish Unionists beyond DUP hardliners.

    No Deal would be a gift to the SNP and Sinn Fein
    Opposing no deal and backing Barnier's deal or Chequers are two very different things. Ruth Davidson et al all oppose Barnier's deal which would be an absolute gift to Sinn Fein by permanently separating NI from GB.

    Which is why Barnier is backed by Sinn Fein and opposed by unionists which you then misread as meaning it's good for the union. If it was good for the union it'd be supported by the unionists and opposed by Sinn Fein for Pete's sake!
    All the Northern Ireland polls show most Northern Irish voters want NI to stay in the single market and customs union and a majority would back a United Ireland if that was not the case. The backstop to keep NI in the single market and customs union could be the only way of saving the UK especially when nationalists only get a majority for independence in Scottish polls with No Deal
    Why you should be wary of hypothetical polling: http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/09/03/why-you-should-be-wary-of-hypothetical-polling/

    I'll trust the lifelong unionists and my own common sense that breaking up the country to save it is a stupid idea before I trust a hypothetical poll.
    It is blindingly obvious. Even arch Remainer Ruth Davidson won't fall for it.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    Nice T-Shirt
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,989

    Barnesian said:

    HYUFD said:

    First. Like No Deal.

    4th like the number of centuries the Union may not reach if No Deal
    You're back! I was worried about you, after TM stated unambiguously in Parliament that she would never support another referendum - bit awkward given you have spend the last twenty four hours insisting that she will.
    "Here are five occasions on which the Prime Minister personally, or her staff, denied that there were plans for an election [in 2017]"

    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/04/five-times-theresa-may-no-10-ruled-snap-general-election/
    You are telling me the PM is a liar?
    It was the Spectator that was pointing that out. What do you think?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    SeanT said:
    He won't be the only one. William is getting closer to being right by the day.
  • Options
    archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612
    SeanT said:
    He did not say anything of the sort. He said fighting the CU was worth the risk of a second referendum. He is correct in saying that all deal outcomes, including Norway, are less damaging to the UK than permanent membership of the CU.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960

    rcs1000 said:

    Enjoyed the video Robert

    Thanks Alanbrooke.
    at the risk of getting lynched the other rmissing part of the jigsaw is to restrict free family planning to create larger families. Now that will be unpopular but it certainly will create more children

    why not sound out Mrs S with the idea tonight:-)
    I've always found small children make excellent contraceptives.
  • Options
    kle4 said:

    Nice T-Shirt

    When I saw the t shirt I refused to publish the thread.

    Apart from Creep and Karma Police we all know Radiohead are massively overrated.
  • Options
    archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612
    Barnesian said:

    Barnesian said:

    HYUFD said:

    First. Like No Deal.

    4th like the number of centuries the Union may not reach if No Deal
    You're back! I was worried about you, after TM stated unambiguously in Parliament that she would never support another referendum - bit awkward given you have spend the last twenty four hours insisting that she will.
    "Here are five occasions on which the Prime Minister personally, or her staff, denied that there were plans for an election [in 2017]"

    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/04/five-times-theresa-may-no-10-ruled-snap-general-election/
    You are telling me the PM is a liar?
    It was the Spectator that was pointing that out. What do you think?
    I think all politicians lie, but May more than most.

    But there are 'rules' about lying. Everyone expects a PM to lie about the timing of an election.

    Promising over and over that you will implement Brexit and will not call a second referendum and then reversing is not a survivable lie. And, as I keep trying to explain to HYUFD, without the PMs support Parliament cannot pass any legislation in relation to Brexit.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725

    kle4 said:

    Nice T-Shirt

    When I saw the t shirt I refused to publish the thread.

    Apart from Creep and Karma Police we all know Radiohead are massively overrated.
    Yes, that's why it's a nice shirt :)
  • Options
    archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612
    Another piece in HYUFD's pie crumbles. The 'meaningful vote' agreed by the Government was quite clearly specified as a 'neutral motion' which means that it should not be subject to amendment. It was not a promise to allow the HoC a whole series of votes on whatever they want. It was a straight up and down vote on a deal.

    If there is no deal, the Government has promised to make a statement on what they intend to do about it.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited October 2018
    "After a year of #MeToo, American opinion has shifted against victims

    Survey respondents have become more sceptical about sexual harassment"


    https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/10/15/after-a-year-of-metoo-american-opinion-has-shifted-against-victims
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989
    Matthew D'Ancona 'The more chaotic Brexit becomes, the more I back calls for a People's Vote'

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/the-more-chaotic-brexit-becomes-the-more-i-back-calls-for-a-people-s-vote-a3964081.html
  • Options
    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    SeanT said:
    He did not say anything of the sort. He said fighting the CU was worth the risk of a second referendum. He is correct in saying that all deal outcomes, including Norway, are less damaging to the UK than permanent membership of the CU.
    Hannan is a light weight who is all over the place. He doesn't have a clue what is in the national interest.

  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    edited October 2018

    Another piece in HYUFD's pie crumbles. The 'meaningful vote' agreed by the Government was quite clearly specified as a 'neutral motion' which means that it should not be subject to amendment. It was not a promise to allow the HoC a whole series of votes on whatever they want. It was a straight up and down vote on a deal.

    If there is no deal, the Government has promised to make a statement on what they intend to do about it.

    On first reflection that doesn't seen entirely unreasonable if that is indeed what Raab is saying, given that Parliament has had heavy amendments considered already and this would presumably be on an endstate (to this period at least) agreed in principle with the EU, and again on first reflection I'm not sure how much is to be gained on amendments. If people want brand new things, and don't fear no deal if that is not possible, then they can vote down what is before them. But I am open to being persuaded, again if that is what Raab means.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:



    HYUFD said:

    First. Like No Deal.

    4th like the number of centuries the Union may not reach if No Deal
    8th like the number of mutually exclusive and contradictory positions you'll take with absolute certainty if there's a single opinion poll showing them to be the case.

    Still not grasped the fact that unionists oppose this.
    Most Scottish Unionists oppose No Deal.

    As do Northern Irish Unionists beyond DUP hardliners.

    No Deal would be a gift to the SNP and Sinn Fein
    Opposing no deal and backing Barnier's deal or Chequers are two very different things. Ruth Davidson et al all oppose Barnier's deal which would be an absolute gift to Sinn Fein by permanently separating NI from GB.

    Which is why Barnier is backed by Sinn Fein and opposed by unionists which you then misread as meaning it's good for the union. If it was good for the union it'd be supported by the unionists and opposed by Sinn Fein for Pete's sake!
    All the Northern Ireland polls show most Northern Irish voters want NI to stay in the single market and customs union and a majority would back a United Ireland if that was not the case. The backstop to keep NI in the single market and customs union could be the only way of saving the UK especially when nationalists only get a majority for independence in Scottish polls with No Deal
    Why you should be wary of hypothetical polling: http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/09/03/why-you-should-be-wary-of-hypothetical-polling/

    I'll trust the lifelong unionists and my own common sense that breaking up the country to save it is a stupid idea before I trust a hypothetical poll.
    Well if you wish to gamble with the Union on a hunch that is up to you, we do know Scotland and Northern Ireland voted Remain which is evidence enough they do not want ultra hard No Deal Brexit
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:



    HYUFD said:

    First. Like No Deal.

    4th like the number of centuries the Union may not reach if No Deal
    8th like the number of mutually exclusive and contradictory positions you'll take with absolute certainty if there's a single opinion poll showing them to be the case.

    Still not grasped the fact that unionists oppose this.
    Most Scottish Unionists oppose No Deal.

    As do Northern Irish Unionists beyond DUP hardliners.

    No Deal would be a gift to the SNP and Sinn Fein
    No deal may not be unionists' preferred option, but they may well prefer no deal to an internal border with the rest of the UK. If unionists were happy with what the EU are proposing, it would not be as contentious as it is.
    They will have a full border with the UK if No Deal leads to an independent Scotland and a full Irish Sea border if it leads to a United Ireland
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960
    kle4 said:

    Nice T-Shirt

    You do it to yourself, you do
    And that's what really hurts
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989
    SeanT said:
    Leading conservative columnist Matthew D'Ancona has backed a second referendum in the Evening Standard too
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,989
    Some months ago I booked a Club Med skiing holiday in France for myself, my children and my grandchildren. We depart on 8th April 2019. Hmm.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960
    @SeanT

    You will be pleased to know that I directly address one of your favorite hobby horses: why Mrs Merkel invited Syrian migrants over.

    Feel free to retweet my video your 7 million Twitter followers.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989
    kle4 said:

    SeanT said:
    He won't be the only one. William is getting closer to being right by the day.
    The more the likes of Archer and co are rushing headlong towards No Deal Brexit with glee without a care for the economy or the Union the more the sentiment for a second EU referendum will grow.

    52% Leave 48% Remain is not a big enough mandate for ultra hard take no prisoners Brexit
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    Well of course they should not recess. If ever there was a time we must ask our parliamentarians to put in even longer and harder hours at parliament, it is now. That is not to denigrate constituency work or that people do need breaks, and that it might demand a lot of them, but each of them have a small share in disposing of the affairs of this kingdom, and they have to step up at such times.
  • Options
    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Q
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:
    He did not say anything of the sort. He said fighting the CU was worth the risk of a second referendum. He is correct in saying that all deal outcomes, including Norway, are less damaging to the UK than permanent membership of the CU.
    Semantics. He thinks a 2nd referendum is better than TMay's deal. He also admits that REMAINING (presumably after that vote) is better than TMay's deal.

    And yes he also says he prefers EFTA or Canada to TMay's deal.

    And this is fom Dan Hannan? It is a significant concession by arguably the most intellectually acute of Brexiteer politicians.

    If he's the most intellectually acute it doesn't say much for the rest of 'em.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,631

    Q

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:
    He did not say anything of the sort. He said fighting the CU was worth the risk of a second referendum. He is correct in saying that all deal outcomes, including Norway, are less damaging to the UK than permanent membership of the CU.
    Semantics. He thinks a 2nd referendum is better than TMay's deal. He also admits that REMAINING (presumably after that vote) is better than TMay's deal.

    And yes he also says he prefers EFTA or Canada to TMay's deal.

    And this is fom Dan Hannan? It is a significant concession by arguably the most intellectually acute of Brexiteer politicians.

    If he's the most intellectually acute it doesn't say much for the rest of 'em.
    Its a low bar.....
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989
    edited October 2018

    Barnesian said:

    Barnesian said:

    HYUFD said:

    First. Like No Deal.

    4th like the number of centuries the Union may not reach if No Deal
    You're back! I was worried about you, after TM stated unambiguously in Parliament that she would never support another referendum - bit awkward given you have spend the last twenty four hours insisting that she will.
    "Here are five occasions on which the Prime Minister personally, or her staff, denied that there were plans for an election [in 2017]"

    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/04/five-times-theresa-may-no-10-ruled-snap-general-election/
    You are telling me the PM is a liar?
    It was the Spectator that was pointing that out. What do you think?
    I think all politicians lie, but May more than most.

    But there are 'rules' about lying. Everyone expects a PM to lie about the timing of an election.

    Promising over and over that you will implement Brexit and will not call a second referendum and then reversing is not a survivable lie. And, as I keep trying to explain to HYUFD, without the PMs support Parliament cannot pass any legislation in relation to Brexit.
    The PM does not really give a toss about Brexit, she backed Remain after all.

    The ERG do not have the numbers to replace her
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,832
    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:



    HYUFD said:

    First. Like No Deal.

    4th like the number of centuries the Union may not reach if No Deal
    8th like the number of mutually exclusive and contradictory positions you'll take with absolute certainty if there's a single opinion poll showing them to be the case.

    Still not grasped the fact that unionists oppose this.
    Most Scottish Unionists oppose No Deal.

    As do Northern Irish Unionists beyond DUP hardliners.

    No Deal would be a gift to the SNP and Sinn Fein
    No deal may not be unionists' preferred option, but they may well prefer no deal to an internal border with the rest of the UK. If unionists were happy with what the EU are proposing, it would not be as contentious as it is.
    They will have a full border with the UK if No Deal leads to an independent Scotland and a full Irish Sea border if it leads to a United Ireland
    Still, I see no sign that unionists in either Scotland or Northern Ireland favour agreeing to the Northern Ireland backstop. Very much the reverse in fact.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,710
    If I understand Barnier's scheme correctly, for the first time I can see a pathway to a semi workable Brexit. So you have transition period no 1, where you negotiate a backstop workaround. Nominally this is a "customs arrangement" and undefined harmonisation of rules in Northern Ireland and Great Britain that are both the same and different as each other so there is no need for a hard border either in Ireland or the Irish Sea. This is of course strictly time limited. Let's call this arrangement SM+CU for short. We give ourselves an extra year in transition 1 to negotiate the arrangement for transition no 2. In 2022 we move into transition no 2 where we negotiate the final arrangement. By this time the "technical solutions" to the border problem will have revealed themselves and we can begin work on Canada, which will be absolutely super. This should take us to 2032 or thereabouts. We will have been discussing Brexit for fifteen years and the grass will have grown to triffid proportions
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    You're a lot braver than me doing videos.

    Having said that, I'm not sure you have accurately diagnosed the problem or the cure. It is not so much that we are living longer. It is that quite a lot of those who are living longer expect not to have to work much further into their old age than their parents, even if they are capable of doing so. Giving wealthy fit older people financial incentives not to work is nuts.

    Rather than worrying about longevity we should be worrying about morbidity. Healthy old people can work. Unhealthy people of any age can't work. The biggest problem is that by and large the unhealthy older people are the ones who have the financial motivation to keep working. We need to incentivise richer oldies to stay in the workplace longer.

    There seem to be quite a few fruit-picking jobs to go round, and if pb is anything to go by the oldies have plenty of experience in that line of work.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,631
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    SeanT said:
    He won't be the only one. William is getting closer to being right by the day.
    The more the likes of Archer and co are rushing headlong towards No Deal Brexit with glee without a care for the economy or the Union the more the sentiment for a second EU referendum will grow.

    52% Leave 48% Remain is not a big enough mandate for ultra hard take no prisoners Brexit

    We're all just "people on the internet" - apart from those who have canvassed door to door I doubt any of us has shifted a single vote other than our own.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989
    edited October 2018

    Another piece in HYUFD's pie crumbles. The 'meaningful vote' agreed by the Government was quite clearly specified as a 'neutral motion' which means that it should not be subject to amendment. It was not a promise to allow the HoC a whole series of votes on whatever they want. It was a straight up and down vote on a deal.

    If there is no deal, the Government has promised to make a statement on what they intend to do about it.

    Not at all. That is based on there being a Deal needing quick approval, if No Deal as May confirmed earlier in the week she will go back to Parliament
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    rcs1000 said:

    @SeanT

    You will be pleased to know that I directly address one of your favorite hobby horses: why Mrs Merkel invited Syrian migrants over.

    Feel free to retweet my video your 7 million Twitter followers.

    So selfless.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,832
    FF43 said:

    If I understand Barnier's scheme correctly, for the first time I can see a pathway to a semi workable Brexit. So you have transition period no 1, where you negotiate a backstop workaround. Nominally this is a "customs arrangement" and undefined harmonisation of rules in Northern Ireland and Great Britain that are both the same and different as each other so there is no need for a hard border either in Ireland or the Irish Sea. This is of course strictly time limited. Let's call this arrangement SM+CU for short. We give ourselves an extra year in transition 1 to negotiate the arrangement for transition no 2. In 2022 we move into transition no 2 where we negotiate the final arrangement. By this time the "technical solutions" to the border problem will have revealed themselves and we can begin work on Canada, which will be absolutely super. This should take us to 2032 or thereabouts. We will have been discussing Brexit for fifteen years and the grass will have grown to triffid proportions
    Solid entertainment
  • Options

    You're a lot braver than me doing videos.

    Having said that, I'm not sure you have accurately diagnosed the problem or the cure. It is not so much that we are living longer. It is that quite a lot of those who are living longer expect not to have to work much further into their old age than their parents, even if they are capable of doing so. Giving wealthy fit older people financial incentives not to work is nuts.

    Rather than worrying about longevity we should be worrying about morbidity. Healthy old people can work. Unhealthy people of any age can't work. The biggest problem is that by and large the unhealthy older people are the ones who have the financial motivation to keep working. We need to incentivise richer oldies to stay in the workplace longer.

    There seem to be quite a few fruit-picking jobs to go round, and if pb is anything to go by the oldies have plenty of experience in that line of work.

    Cherries maybe..
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,832

    You're a lot braver than me doing videos.

    Having said that, I'm not sure you have accurately diagnosed the problem or the cure. It is not so much that we are living longer. It is that quite a lot of those who are living longer expect not to have to work much further into their old age than their parents, even if they are capable of doing so. Giving wealthy fit older people financial incentives not to work is nuts.

    Rather than worrying about longevity we should be worrying about morbidity. Healthy old people can work. Unhealthy people of any age can't work. The biggest problem is that by and large the unhealthy older people are the ones who have the financial motivation to keep working. We need to incentivise richer oldies to stay in the workplace longer.

    There seem to be quite a few fruit-picking jobs to go round, and if pb is anything to go by the oldies have plenty of experience in that line of work.

    A lot of older people are working longer though.. My own parents are working their seventies.
  • Options
    The suggestion that the february recess may be cancelled leads me more and more to the view a second referendum is on it's way.

    If we look at the politics, the DUP, Nicola Sturgeon, Ruth Davidson and others including labour seem to be leading a move towards staying in the customs union and the single market and if that becomes unlikely, no deal becomes almost default.

    A second referendum with tacit support from those mentioned above, plus a majority in the HOC and HOL becomes a real prospect.

    TM did say she would bring the matter to the HOC for their decision and if that happens, and the HOC, HOL and the country look in favour, a second referendum it will be.


    And in those circumstances the hard brexiteers will have lost due to their obsession with only their way and a poorly presented case. The plummeting popularity of Boris and JRM should be a warning. The public are losing faith in the hard brexit WTO way, if they had any in the first place
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Sean_F said:

    You're a lot braver than me doing videos.

    Having said that, I'm not sure you have accurately diagnosed the problem or the cure. It is not so much that we are living longer. It is that quite a lot of those who are living longer expect not to have to work much further into their old age than their parents, even if they are capable of doing so. Giving wealthy fit older people financial incentives not to work is nuts.

    Rather than worrying about longevity we should be worrying about morbidity. Healthy old people can work. Unhealthy people of any age can't work. The biggest problem is that by and large the unhealthy older people are the ones who have the financial motivation to keep working. We need to incentivise richer oldies to stay in the workplace longer.

    There seem to be quite a few fruit-picking jobs to go round, and if pb is anything to go by the oldies have plenty of experience in that line of work.

    A lot of older people are working longer though.. My own parents are working their seventies.
    My own dad did. Which is why Robert's video isn't hitting the exact nature of the problem. It's not that we're getting older, it's about our expectations of and ability to work into older age. The problem is partly being fixed by oldies working, but not completely.
  • Options
    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    A quick reminder of his quality for fans of dans planing.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/snigskitchen/status/1051905864502845445/photo/1
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989
    President Trump says he is not to blame if Republicans lose the House

    http://time.com/5426651/trump-gop-blame-lose-house-congress/
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,191
    On the plus side, in the event of no deal they will at least be snowed under...
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    SeanT said:
    He won't be the only one. William is getting closer to being right by the day.
    The more the likes of Archer and co are rushing headlong towards No Deal Brexit with glee without a care for the economy or the Union the more the sentiment for a second EU referendum will grow.

    52% Leave 48% Remain is not a big enough mandate for ultra hard take no prisoners Brexit

    We're all just "people on the internet" - apart from those who have canvassed door to door I doubt any of us has shifted a single vote other than our own.
    It is who they reflect that is key
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:



    HYUFD said:

    First. Like No Deal.

    4th like the number of centuries the Union may not reach if No Deal
    8th like the number of mutually exclusive and contradictory positions you'll take with absolute certainty if there's a single opinion poll showing them to be the case.

    Still not grasped the fact that unionists oppose this.
    Most Scottish Unionists oppose No Deal.

    As do Northern Irish Unionists beyond DUP hardliners.

    No Deal would be a gift to the SNP and Sinn Fein
    No deal may not be unionists' preferred option, but they may well prefer no deal to an internal border with the rest of the UK. If unionists were happy with what the EU are proposing, it would not be as contentious as it is.
    They will have a full border with the UK if No Deal leads to an independent Scotland and a full Irish Sea border if it leads to a United Ireland
    Still, I see no sign that unionists in either Scotland or Northern Ireland favour agreeing to the Northern Ireland backstop. Very much the reverse in fact.
    As long as GB stays in the single market and customs union too they will
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,631
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    SeanT said:
    He won't be the only one. William is getting closer to being right by the day.
    The more the likes of Archer and co are rushing headlong towards No Deal Brexit with glee without a care for the economy or the Union the more the sentiment for a second EU referendum will grow.

    52% Leave 48% Remain is not a big enough mandate for ultra hard take no prisoners Brexit

    We're all just "people on the internet" - apart from those who have canvassed door to door I doubt any of us has shifted a single vote other than our own.
    It is who they reflect that is key
    They reflect no one but themselves. And while I'm sure they're wonderful people, I very much doubt anything they, or any of us have written below the line has shifted as much as a single vote.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989
    FF43 said:

    If I understand Barnier's scheme correctly, for the first time I can see a pathway to a semi workable Brexit. So you have transition period no 1, where you negotiate a backstop workaround. Nominally this is a "customs arrangement" and undefined harmonisation of rules in Northern Ireland and Great Britain that are both the same and different as each other so there is no need for a hard border either in Ireland or the Irish Sea. This is of course strictly time limited. Let's call this arrangement SM+CU for short. We give ourselves an extra year in transition 1 to negotiate the arrangement for transition no 2. In 2022 we move into transition no 2 where we negotiate the final arrangement. By this time the "technical solutions" to the border problem will have revealed themselves and we can begin work on Canada, which will be absolutely super. This should take us to 2032 or thereabouts. We will have been discussing Brexit for fifteen years and the grass will have grown to triffid proportions
    By then Chuka Umunna may be PM and we will be back in the single market and customs union anyway
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,850
    Sean_F said:


    A lot of older people are working longer though.. My own parents are working their seventies.

    An inter-generational workplace with people aged 17-70 raises both opportunities and challenges.

    I do think if someone beyond retirement age returns to work they should pay NI like all other workers.

    I'd also like to think people won't be cajoled in any way to work beyond retirement and should be encouraged to take a "work break" because, to be blunt, there's more to life than work and there are people as valuable in society as those who are "hard working" such as full time carers who don't get much of a life or much of a deal at present.
  • Options
    archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:
    He did not say anything of the sort. He said fighting the CU was worth the risk of a second referendum. He is correct in saying that all deal outcomes, including Norway, are less damaging to the UK than permanent membership of the CU.
    Semantics. He thinks a 2nd referendum is better than TMay's deal. He also admits that REMAINING (presumably after that vote) is better than TMay's deal.

    And yes he also says he prefers EFTA or Canada to TMay's deal.

    And this is fom Dan Hannan? It is a significant concession by arguably the most intellectually acute of Brexiteer politicians.

    OK well he says nothing like that but if it makes you feel better, go for it.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,191

    You're a lot braver than me doing videos.

    Having said that, I'm not sure you have accurately diagnosed the problem or the cure. It is not so much that we are living longer. It is that quite a lot of those who are living longer expect not to have to work much further into their old age than their parents, even if they are capable of doing so. Giving wealthy fit older people financial incentives not to work is nuts.

    Rather than worrying about longevity we should be worrying about morbidity. Healthy old people can work. Unhealthy people of any age can't work. The biggest problem is that by and large the unhealthy older people are the ones who have the financial motivation to keep working. We need to incentivise richer oldies to stay in the workplace longer.

    There seem to be quite a few fruit-picking jobs to go round, and if pb is anything to go by the oldies have plenty of experience in that line of work.

    Cherries maybe..
    Boom boom!
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960
    Sean_F said:

    You're a lot braver than me doing videos.

    Having said that, I'm not sure you have accurately diagnosed the problem or the cure. It is not so much that we are living longer. It is that quite a lot of those who are living longer expect not to have to work much further into their old age than their parents, even if they are capable of doing so. Giving wealthy fit older people financial incentives not to work is nuts.

    Rather than worrying about longevity we should be worrying about morbidity. Healthy old people can work. Unhealthy people of any age can't work. The biggest problem is that by and large the unhealthy older people are the ones who have the financial motivation to keep working. We need to incentivise richer oldies to stay in the workplace longer.

    There seem to be quite a few fruit-picking jobs to go round, and if pb is anything to go by the oldies have plenty of experience in that line of work.

    A lot of older people are working longer though.. My own parents are working their seventies.
    As is my dad. But I address this in the video:

    Economic output for those working peaks at about 50, and then you see both output and participation rates drop.

    Working later helps, but is no silver bullet.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942

    The suggestion that the february recess may be cancelled leads me more and more to the view a second referendum is on it's way.

    If we look at the politics, the DUP, Nicola Sturgeon, Ruth Davidson and others including labour seem to be leading a move towards staying in the customs union and the single market and if that becomes unlikely, no deal becomes almost default.

    A second referendum with tacit support from those mentioned above, plus a majority in the HOC and HOL becomes a real prospect.

    TM did say she would bring the matter to the HOC for their decision and if that happens, and the HOC, HOL and the country look in favour, a second referendum it will be.


    And in those circumstances the hard brexiteers will have lost due to their obsession with only their way and a poorly presented case. The plummeting popularity of Boris and JRM should be a warning. The public are losing faith in the hard brexit WTO way, if they had any in the first place

    Staying in the CU has been defeated FIVE SEPARATE TIMES in the HoC.

    I know you really like the sound of it, Big G, but it isn’t going to happen. There aren’t votes for it in the House.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    How could that be true, the EU is the most noble, glorious and civilized entity in the world, and merely being a part of its club elevates all its members as a result, how could they do less than we on something?
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,710
    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    If I understand Barnier's scheme correctly, for the first time I can see a pathway to a semi workable Brexit. So you have transition period no 1, where you negotiate a backstop workaround. Nominally this is a "customs arrangement" and undefined harmonisation of rules in Northern Ireland and Great Britain that are both the same and different as each other so there is no need for a hard border either in Ireland or the Irish Sea. This is of course strictly time limited. Let's call this arrangement SM+CU for short. We give ourselves an extra year in transition 1 to negotiate the arrangement for transition no 2. In 2022 we move into transition no 2 where we negotiate the final arrangement. By this time the "technical solutions" to the border problem will have revealed themselves and we can begin work on Canada, which will be absolutely super. This should take us to 2032 or thereabouts. We will have been discussing Brexit for fifteen years and the grass will have grown to triffid proportions
    Solid entertainment
    Well even I will be bored by the topic and won't be around in fifteen years on this site to say, I told you so.. I will nevertheless be right, not because of any great powers of prediction, but because the circle needs to be squared, which in 1882 was proven to be mathematically impossible.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,191
    kle4 said:

    How could that be true, the EU is the most noble, glorious and civilized entity in the world, and merely being a part of its club elevates all its members as a result, how could they do less than we on something?
    TBF, it says the French, not the EU.

    And I still say if we had done what the French did, and ignored every rule we didn't like, this country would love the EU to death and it would be a great success.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962
    kle4 said:

    How could that be true, the EU is the most noble, glorious and civilized entity in the world, and merely being a part of its club elevates all its members as a result, how could they do less than we on something?
    Howls of outrage in 3, 2, 1, ....
  • Options
    archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612

    The suggestion that the february recess may be cancelled leads me more and more to the view a second referendum is on it's way.

    If we look at the politics, the DUP, Nicola Sturgeon, Ruth Davidson and others including labour seem to be leading a move towards staying in the customs union and the single market and if that becomes unlikely, no deal becomes almost default.

    A second referendum with tacit support from those mentioned above, plus a majority in the HOC and HOL becomes a real prospect.

    TM did say she would bring the matter to the HOC for their decision and if that happens, and the HOC, HOL and the country look in favour, a second referendum it will be.


    And in those circumstances the hard brexiteers will have lost due to their obsession with only their way and a poorly presented case. The plummeting popularity of Boris and JRM should be a warning. The public are losing faith in the hard brexit WTO way, if they had any in the first place

    Obviously we disagree on the outcome. But the point about this being due to the hard Brexiteers is clearly false. The talks are stuck on the backstop, not the trade deal. And as has become clear in the last week, ANY type of deal with the EU cannot be done now, under A50; will have to be approved in the form of a mixed competency trade deal, and therefore will require the backstop which almost everyone, including Ruth Davidson, says is unacceptable. There is no evidence that Tory Remainers support the backstop - they all agreed with May when she said she could never agree to it.

    Do you believe there is a majority for the NI backstop with Tory MPs? If not, how does a 'softer' Brexit make any difference to the current problem?
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942
    kle4 said:

    How could that be true, the EU is the most noble, glorious and civilized entity in the world, and merely being a part of its club elevates all its members as a result, how could they do less than we on something?
    I’m looking forward to the howls from the Remainers who condemned us for not unilaterally protecting EU citizen’s rights.

    And the apologies to those of us who said acting unilaterally it would be turned into a hostage to fortune.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    How could that be true, the EU is the most noble, glorious and civilized entity in the world, and merely being a part of its club elevates all its members as a result, how could they do less than we on something?
    TBF, it says the French, not the EU.
    Which is why I made a point to note that being a part of the EU is supposed to elevate its members, we've seen Roger cry about how we are already diminished enough times about it, as though holding or not holding EU membership immediately makes a nation barbaric and crude.
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    archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:
    He did not say anything of the sort. He said fighting the CU was worth the risk of a second referendum. He is correct in saying that all deal outcomes, including Norway, are less damaging to the UK than permanent membership of the CU.
    Semantics. He thinks a 2nd referendum is better than TMay's deal. He also admits that REMAINING (presumably after that vote) is better than TMay's deal.

    And yes he also says he prefers EFTA or Canada to TMay's deal.

    And this is fom Dan Hannan? It is a significant concession by arguably the most intellectually acute of Brexiteer politicians.

    OK well he says nothing like that but if it makes you feel better, go for it.
    Er, he says it explicitly here

    "The proposed exit terms represent a deal worse than either STAYING or leaving."

    and also implies it here

    "frankly, any outcome – no deal, Norway, Canada, even the risk of a second referendum – would be better than what is currently on the table"


    https://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2018/10/daniel-hannan-the-proposed-brexit-terms-represent-a-deal-worse-than-either-staying-or-leaving.html
    Yes. That does not mean he advocates a second referendum, or that we should remain. He is saying we should not do May's deal.
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