Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Corbyn’s gift to the Tories and Mrs May – his boycott of the H

SystemSystem Posts: 11,018
edited October 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Corbyn’s gift to the Tories and Mrs May – his boycott of the House of Lords

Jeremy Corbyn doesn’t like the House of Lords and as with many things he doesn’t like, he’s gone out of his way to avoid engaging with it. When he was first running for the Labour leadership, he promised that he wouldn’t nominate any new Labour peers. That was understandable for someone who has long opposed the nature of the undemocratic upper House, and for someone who’s always believed in the power of the boycott.

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,636
    First! Like Mrs May & Leave....
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962
    Second :(
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,636
    Good thread;

    Given the many challenges of the coming months and years, that might only be a slim silver lining – but in an otherwise dull lead sky, any sparkle will be welcomed.

    I suspect Mrs May will take any silver linings she can get.....

    I see the Khashoggi story has 'evolved':

    https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/jamal-khashoggi-killed-consulate-saudi-arabia-confirms-1213104619

    In a surprise to no-one 'Mister Bone Saw' had no idea at all what was going on.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,636

    In a surprise to no-one 'Mister Bone Saw' had no idea at all what was going on.

    No! Really?

    https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1053491178782498817
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,559

    In a surprise to no-one 'Mister Bone Saw' had no idea at all what was going on.

    No! Really?

    https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1053491178782498817
    Which seems like a Saudi attempt to put the least unpalatable spin on what appears to have been a brutal, pre-meditated murder of a critical journalist.
    And put the blame solely on the killers rather than those who might have instructed it.

    Note Trump has called it “a good first step”.
    At the same time as his proxies have started smearing Khashoggi as a terrorist sympathiser.

  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    In a surprise to no-one 'Mister Bone Saw' had no idea at all what was going on.

    No! Really?

    https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1053491178782498817
    AMORAL doesn't begin to describe Trump. When he's finally ejected from office it'll be interesting to see the contempt and loathing with which not only him but the parasites who surround him -including his family-will be held.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962
    Bring back the hereditaries! :D
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,989
    Roger said:

    In a surprise to no-one 'Mister Bone Saw' had no idea at all what was going on.

    No! Really?

    https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1053491178782498817
    AMORAL doesn't begin to describe Trump. When he's finally ejected from office it'll be interesting to see the contempt and loathing with which not only him but the parasites who surround him -including his family-will be held.
    I could say the same about the anti-Semite currently leading the Labour Party.

    Or people who think Assad is just a little misunderstood ...
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    Roger said:

    In a surprise to no-one 'Mister Bone Saw' had no idea at all what was going on.

    No! Really?

    https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1053491178782498817
    AMORAL doesn't begin to describe Trump. When he's finally ejected from office it'll be interesting to see the contempt and loathing with which not only him but the parasites who surround him -including his family-will be held.
    I could say the same about the anti-Semite currently leading the Labour Party.

    Or people who think Assad is just a little misunderstood ...
    Yes you could because you're a f**ing moron
  • Options
    TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    edited October 2018

    Roger said:

    In a surprise to no-one 'Mister Bone Saw' had no idea at all what was going on.

    No! Really?

    https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1053491178782498817
    AMORAL doesn't begin to describe Trump. When he's finally ejected from office it'll be interesting to see the contempt and loathing with which not only him but the parasites who surround him -including his family-will be held.
    I could say the same about the anti-Semite currently leading the Labour Party.

    Or people who think Assad is just a little misunderstood ...
    Miliband held similar anti-semitic views to Corbyn in regards to selling weapons to Israel and recognising Palestine and that doesn't seem to have happened with him so Corbyn should be okay.

    Of course actual anti-semites who have a problem with Jewish people rather than just the occupation of Palestine are a different matter.
  • Options
    TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Roger said:

    In a surprise to no-one 'Mister Bone Saw' had no idea at all what was going on.

    No! Really?

    https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1053491178782498817
    AMORAL doesn't begin to describe Trump. When he's finally ejected from office it'll be interesting to see the contempt and loathing with which not only him but the parasites who surround him -including his family-will be held.
    Whilst I don't disagree with the spirit letting the Saudis get away with it is far from unique to Trump.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,977

    Roger said:

    In a surprise to no-one 'Mister Bone Saw' had no idea at all what was going on.

    No! Really?

    https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1053491178782498817
    AMORAL doesn't begin to describe Trump. When he's finally ejected from office it'll be interesting to see the contempt and loathing with which not only him but the parasites who surround him -including his family-will be held.
    I could say the same about the anti-Semite currently leading the Labour Party.

    Or people who think Assad is just a little misunderstood ...
    Miliband held similar anti-semitic views to Corbyn in regards to selling weapons to Israel and recognising Palestine and that doesn't seem to have happened with him so Corbyn should be okay.

    Of course actual anti-semites who have a problem with Jewish people rather than just the occupation of Palestine are a different matter.
    And Milliband is of Jewish heritage!
  • Options
    TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    Roger said:

    In a surprise to no-one 'Mister Bone Saw' had no idea at all what was going on.

    No! Really?

    https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1053491178782498817
    AMORAL doesn't begin to describe Trump. When he's finally ejected from office it'll be interesting to see the contempt and loathing with which not only him but the parasites who surround him -including his family-will be held.
    I could say the same about the anti-Semite currently leading the Labour Party.

    Or people who think Assad is just a little misunderstood ...
    Miliband held similar anti-semitic views to Corbyn in regards to selling weapons to Israel and recognising Palestine and that doesn't seem to have happened with him so Corbyn should be okay.

    Of course actual anti-semites who have a problem with Jewish people rather than just the occupation of Palestine are a different matter.
    And Milliband is of Jewish heritage!
    Typical Corbyn... always in agreement with the wrong kind of the Jew.... bet he even went out and defended Ed's Dad when the right wing papers were attacking him in their crusade against anti semitism in years gone by...
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,989

    Roger said:

    In a surprise to no-one 'Mister Bone Saw' had no idea at all what was going on.

    No! Really?

    https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1053491178782498817
    AMORAL doesn't begin to describe Trump. When he's finally ejected from office it'll be interesting to see the contempt and loathing with which not only him but the parasites who surround him -including his family-will be held.
    I could say the same about the anti-Semite currently leading the Labour Party.

    Or people who think Assad is just a little misunderstood ...
    Miliband held similar anti-semitic views to Corbyn in regards to selling weapons to Israel and recognising Palestine and that doesn't seem to have happened with him so Corbyn should be okay.

    Of course actual anti-semites who have a problem with Jewish people rather than just the occupation of Palestine are a different matter.
    I bet Miliband would have recognised that mural as being anti-Semitic ...

    But as it's coming towards November 5th, I hope you've learnt the difference between fireworks and rockets designed to main and kill. Otherwise I'd like to keep away from any display you organise. ;)
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,989
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    In a surprise to no-one 'Mister Bone Saw' had no idea at all what was going on.

    No! Really?

    https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1053491178782498817
    AMORAL doesn't begin to describe Trump. When he's finally ejected from office it'll be interesting to see the contempt and loathing with which not only him but the parasites who surround him -including his family-will be held.
    I could say the same about the anti-Semite currently leading the Labour Party.

    Or people who think Assad is just a little misunderstood ...
    Yes you could because you're a f**ing moron
    LOL. No.

    Please tell us again how Assad is a wonderful person ...
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,989

    Roger said:

    In a surprise to no-one 'Mister Bone Saw' had no idea at all what was going on.

    No! Really?

    https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1053491178782498817
    AMORAL doesn't begin to describe Trump. When he's finally ejected from office it'll be interesting to see the contempt and loathing with which not only him but the parasites who surround him -including his family-will be held.
    I could say the same about the anti-Semite currently leading the Labour Party.

    Or people who think Assad is just a little misunderstood ...
    Miliband held similar anti-semitic views to Corbyn in regards to selling weapons to Israel and recognising Palestine and that doesn't seem to have happened with him so Corbyn should be okay.

    Of course actual anti-semites who have a problem with Jewish people rather than just the occupation of Palestine are a different matter.
    And Milliband is of Jewish heritage!
    Typical Corbyn... always in agreement with the wrong kind of the Jew.... bet he even went out and defended Ed's Dad when the right wing papers were attacking him in their crusade against anti semitism in years gone by...
    Instead of saying 'bet' and creating a potential fiction, why don't you check and report back?
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    If you wanted to scrap the House of Lords you’d act as Jeremy Corbyn is acting. I expect he’d not bother replacing it. A unicameral system would suit his big plans much better.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,989

    Roger said:

    In a surprise to no-one 'Mister Bone Saw' had no idea at all what was going on.

    No! Really?

    https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1053491178782498817
    AMORAL doesn't begin to describe Trump. When he's finally ejected from office it'll be interesting to see the contempt and loathing with which not only him but the parasites who surround him -including his family-will be held.
    I could say the same about the anti-Semite currently leading the Labour Party.

    Or people who think Assad is just a little misunderstood ...
    Miliband held similar anti-semitic views to Corbyn in regards to selling weapons to Israel and recognising Palestine and that doesn't seem to have happened with him so Corbyn should be okay.

    Of course actual anti-semites who have a problem with Jewish people rather than just the occupation of Palestine are a different matter.
    Yes. Given his comments and history, I'd argue that Corbyn has problems with Jewish people - it's just that in the mind of some, that's okay as he's also against Israel.

    You may look at the evidence and differ. Fair enough. But even you must admit there are reasonable grounds for saying so.
  • Options
    TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Moving swiftly back on topic... interesting article (as PB headers usually are)

    I am not massively sure on HOL reform myself. I don't know if I really like the idea of the Lords becoming an elected second chamber, just seems like even more potential invitation for gridlock if it has more powers than the current Lords.

    I'm not sure what Corbyn would actually push for but I like the idea of it being a chamber (if that is the right word) which offers some expertise and can advise, delay and try to revise but with power ultimately resting with Parliament.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,977

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    In a surprise to no-one 'Mister Bone Saw' had no idea at all what was going on.

    No! Really?

    https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1053491178782498817
    AMORAL doesn't begin to describe Trump. When he's finally ejected from office it'll be interesting to see the contempt and loathing with which not only him but the parasites who surround him -including his family-will be held.
    I could say the same about the anti-Semite currently leading the Labour Party.

    Or people who think Assad is just a little misunderstood ...
    Yes you could because you're a f**ing moron
    LOL. No.

    Please tell us again how Assad is a wonderful person ...

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    In a surprise to no-one 'Mister Bone Saw' had no idea at all what was going on.

    No! Really?

    https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1053491178782498817
    AMORAL doesn't begin to describe Trump. When he's finally ejected from office it'll be interesting to see the contempt and loathing with which not only him but the parasites who surround him -including his family-will be held.
    I could say the same about the anti-Semite currently leading the Labour Party.

    Or people who think Assad is just a little misunderstood ...
    Yes you could because you're a f**ing moron
    LOL. No.

    Please tell us again how Assad is a wonderful person ...
    Very interesting series about him on the BBC. At the moment, can’t quite get to see how he’s got so vicious, although that might be clearer in the next episode. So far the series shows both he and his wife as rather out of their depth as President and First Lady. IMHO anyway.
  • Options
    TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    Roger said:

    In a surprise to no-one 'Mister Bone Saw' had no idea at all what was going on.

    No! Really?

    https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1053491178782498817
    AMORAL doesn't begin to describe Trump. When he's finally ejected from office it'll be interesting to see the contempt and loathing with which not only him but the parasites who surround him -including his family-will be held.
    I could say the same about the anti-Semite currently leading the Labour Party.

    Or people who think Assad is just a little misunderstood ...
    Miliband held similar anti-semitic views to Corbyn in regards to selling weapons to Israel and recognising Palestine and that doesn't seem to have happened with him so Corbyn should be okay.

    Of course actual anti-semites who have a problem with Jewish people rather than just the occupation of Palestine are a different matter.
    And Milliband is of Jewish heritage!
    Typical Corbyn... always in agreement with the wrong kind of the Jew.... bet he even went out and defended Ed's Dad when the right wing papers were attacking him in their crusade against anti semitism in years gone by...
    Instead of saying 'bet' and creating a potential fiction, why don't you check and report back?
    Checking before you say something stupid is always a good idea.... So it makes sense that you didn't.
  • Options
    TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    Roger said:

    In a surprise to no-one 'Mister Bone Saw' had no idea at all what was going on.

    No! Really?

    https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1053491178782498817
    AMORAL doesn't begin to describe Trump. When he's finally ejected from office it'll be interesting to see the contempt and loathing with which not only him but the parasites who surround him -including his family-will be held.
    I could say the same about the anti-Semite currently leading the Labour Party.

    Or people who think Assad is just a little misunderstood ...
    Miliband held similar anti-semitic views to Corbyn in regards to selling weapons to Israel and recognising Palestine and that doesn't seem to have happened with him so Corbyn should be okay.

    Of course actual anti-semites who have a problem with Jewish people rather than just the occupation of Palestine are a different matter.
    I bet Miliband would have recognised that mural as being anti-Semitic ...

    But as it's coming towards November 5th, I hope you've learnt the difference between fireworks and rockets designed to main and kill. Otherwise I'd like to keep away from any display you organise. ;)
    TBH if you don't think fireworks can hurt people I will be staying away from any displays you organise as hopefully will others....
  • Options
    TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    Roger said:

    In a surprise to no-one 'Mister Bone Saw' had no idea at all what was going on.

    No! Really?

    https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1053491178782498817
    AMORAL doesn't begin to describe Trump. When he's finally ejected from office it'll be interesting to see the contempt and loathing with which not only him but the parasites who surround him -including his family-will be held.
    I could say the same about the anti-Semite currently leading the Labour Party.

    Or people who think Assad is just a little misunderstood ...
    Miliband held similar anti-semitic views to Corbyn in regards to selling weapons to Israel and recognising Palestine and that doesn't seem to have happened with him so Corbyn should be okay.

    Of course actual anti-semites who have a problem with Jewish people rather than just the occupation of Palestine are a different matter.
    Yes. Given his comments and history, I'd argue that Corbyn has problems with Jewish people - it's just that in the mind of some, that's okay as he's also against Israel.

    You may look at the evidence and differ. Fair enough. But even you must admit there are reasonable grounds for saying so.
    I think the grounds for saying so are just as reasonable as they were with Ed Miliband, except maybe for Ed's Jewish heritage which probably does give it a higher bar.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189

    Roger said:

    In a surprise to no-one 'Mister Bone Saw' had no idea at all what was going on.

    No! Really?

    https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1053491178782498817
    AMORAL doesn't begin to describe Trump. When he's finally ejected from office it'll be interesting to see the contempt and loathing with which not only him but the parasites who surround him -including his family-will be held.
    Whilst I don't disagree with the spirit letting the Saudis get away with it is far from unique to Trump.
    Indeed, it's at time like these that liberals should be grateful Trump is POTUS. Far easier to be outraged about his inaction than to have to turn a blind eye to the inaction of HRC.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,977
    edited October 2018
    There might not be any interesting by-elections in UK at the moment but there’s one in Australia. Could spell trouble for the PM.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-45924702
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    In a surprise to no-one 'Mister Bone Saw' had no idea at all what was going on.

    No! Really?

    https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1053491178782498817
    AMORAL doesn't begin to describe Trump. When he's finally ejected from office it'll be interesting to see the contempt and loathing with which not only him but the parasites who surround him -including his family-will be held.
    I could say the same about the anti-Semite currently leading the Labour Party.

    Or people who think Assad is just a little misunderstood ...
    Yes you could because you're a f**ing moron
    Has someone hacked Roger, He's not usually that unpleasant?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,249
    Good news that the HoL is shrinking. Only 791 to go until we are down to a sensible number.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189
    On topic, interesting news that the MSM don't bother reporting.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,989

    Roger said:

    In a surprise to no-one 'Mister Bone Saw' had no idea at all what was going on.

    No! Really?

    https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1053491178782498817
    AMORAL doesn't begin to describe Trump. When he's finally ejected from office it'll be interesting to see the contempt and loathing with which not only him but the parasites who surround him -including his family-will be held.
    I could say the same about the anti-Semite currently leading the Labour Party.

    Or people who think Assad is just a little misunderstood ...
    Miliband held similar anti-semitic views to Corbyn in regards to selling weapons to Israel and recognising Palestine and that doesn't seem to have happened with him so Corbyn should be okay.

    Of course actual anti-semites who have a problem with Jewish people rather than just the occupation of Palestine are a different matter.
    I bet Miliband would have recognised that mural as being anti-Semitic ...

    But as it's coming towards November 5th, I hope you've learnt the difference between fireworks and rockets designed to main and kill. Otherwise I'd like to keep away from any display you organise. ;)
    TBH if you don't think fireworks can hurt people I will be staying away from any displays you organise as hopefully will others....
    That's an odd reply. I know very well that fireworks can hurt people, and am bemused how you could believe I do not.

    It's just that I know the difference between, say, a Qassam and a sky magic display pack. You evidently do not.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,989

    Roger said:

    In a surprise to no-one 'Mister Bone Saw' had no idea at all what was going on.

    No! Really?

    https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1053491178782498817
    AMORAL doesn't begin to describe Trump. When he's finally ejected from office it'll be interesting to see the contempt and loathing with which not only him but the parasites who surround him -including his family-will be held.
    I could say the same about the anti-Semite currently leading the Labour Party.

    Or people who think Assad is just a little misunderstood ...
    Miliband held similar anti-semitic views to Corbyn in regards to selling weapons to Israel and recognising Palestine and that doesn't seem to have happened with him so Corbyn should be okay.

    Of course actual anti-semites who have a problem with Jewish people rather than just the occupation of Palestine are a different matter.
    Yes. Given his comments and history, I'd argue that Corbyn has problems with Jewish people - it's just that in the mind of some, that's okay as he's also against Israel.

    You may look at the evidence and differ. Fair enough. But even you must admit there are reasonable grounds for saying so.
    I think the grounds for saying so are just as reasonable as they were with Ed Miliband, except maybe for Ed's Jewish heritage which probably does give it a higher bar.
    No, they really are not as reasonable.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,922

    If you wanted to scrap the House of Lords you’d act as Jeremy Corbyn is acting. I expect he’d not bother replacing it. A unicameral system would suit his big plans much better.

    Perhaps a silver lining to his premiership.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,989
    edited October 2018

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    In a surprise to no-one 'Mister Bone Saw' had no idea at all what was going on.

    No! Really?

    https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1053491178782498817
    AMORAL doesn't begin to describe Trump. When he's finally ejected from office it'll be interesting to see the contempt and loathing with which not only him but the parasites who surround him -including his family-will be held.
    I could say the same about the anti-Semite currently leading the Labour Party.

    Or people who think Assad is just a little misunderstood ...
    Yes you could because you're a f**ing moron
    LOL. No.

    Please tell us again how Assad is a wonderful person ...
    Very interesting series about him on the BBC. At the moment, can’t quite get to see how he’s got so vicious, although that might be clearer in the next episode. So far the series shows both he and his wife as rather out of their depth as President and First Lady. IMHO anyway.
    On the other hand:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-45586903
  • Options
    TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    Roger said:

    In a surprise to no-one 'Mister Bone Saw' had no idea at all what was going on.

    No! Really?

    https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1053491178782498817
    AMORAL doesn't begin to describe Trump. When he's finally ejected from office it'll be interesting to see the contempt and loathing with which not only him but the parasites who surround him -including his family-will be held.
    I could say the same about the anti-Semite currently leading the Labour Party.

    Or people who think Assad is just a little misunderstood ...
    Miliband held similar anti-semitic views to Corbyn in regards to selling weapons to Israel and recognising Palestine and that doesn't seem to have happened with him so Corbyn should be okay.

    Of course actual anti-semites who have a problem with Jewish people rather than just the occupation of Palestine are a different matter.
    I bet Miliband would have recognised that mural as being anti-Semitic ...

    But as it's coming towards November 5th, I hope you've learnt the difference between fireworks and rockets designed to main and kill. Otherwise I'd like to keep away from any display you organise. ;)
    TBH if you don't think fireworks can hurt people I will be staying away from any displays you organise as hopefully will others....
    That's an odd reply. I know very well that fireworks can hurt people, and am bemused how you could believe I do not.

    It's just that I know the difference between, say, a Qassam and a sky magic display pack. You evidently do not.
    Hmm do you have some kind of evidence of this, I certainly can't remember writing a post where I stated that every single weapon the Palestinians use is x or any other kind of statement that would preclude them using a Qassam. I think you have got confused much like when you accused of me of not being clear I was talking about the far right whilst quoting me mentioned the far right in your first line.

    Deliberate misinterpretation does not help your case.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189
    Interesting to see that we're still not getting the full story on Huddersfield:

    https://tinyurl.com/y6uv788y

    The Huddersfield grooming trials were revealed on Friday after a judge agreed to partially lift reporting restrictions designed to ensure a fair trial.

    Following an application by media groups, including the Guardian, the harrowing details were disclosed in detail for the first time.


    I do think that once it's all concluded, an explanation needs to be given as to why reporting restrictions were in place. I know there are circumstances where this has to happen, but I can see why the likes of Robinson are suspicious. By having reporting restrictions, the case only gets revealed after it's happened and therefore the media coverage is much reduced.
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    tlg86 said:

    Interesting to see that we're still not getting the full story on Huddersfield:

    https://tinyurl.com/y6uv788y

    The Huddersfield grooming trials were revealed on Friday after a judge agreed to partially lift reporting restrictions designed to ensure a fair trial.

    Following an application by media groups, including the Guardian, the harrowing details were disclosed in detail for the first time.


    I do think that once it's all concluded, an explanation needs to be given as to why reporting restrictions were in place. I know there are circumstances where this has to happen, but I can see why the likes of Robinson are suspicious. By having reporting restrictions, the case only gets revealed after it's happened and therefore the media coverage is much reduced.

    In this case, I seem tio recall that the trials were interlinked. A reporting restriction seemed A ok to me.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189

    tlg86 said:

    Interesting to see that we're still not getting the full story on Huddersfield:

    https://tinyurl.com/y6uv788y

    The Huddersfield grooming trials were revealed on Friday after a judge agreed to partially lift reporting restrictions designed to ensure a fair trial.

    Following an application by media groups, including the Guardian, the harrowing details were disclosed in detail for the first time.


    I do think that once it's all concluded, an explanation needs to be given as to why reporting restrictions were in place. I know there are circumstances where this has to happen, but I can see why the likes of Robinson are suspicious. By having reporting restrictions, the case only gets revealed after it's happened and therefore the media coverage is much reduced.

    In this case, I seem tio recall that the trials were interlinked. A reporting restriction seemed A ok to me.
    Fine, but annoyingly that Guardian article doesn't actually say that which is infuriating. And they need to explain why they weren't tried together.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    tlg86 said:

    Interesting to see that we're still not getting the full story on Huddersfield:

    https://tinyurl.com/y6uv788y

    The Huddersfield grooming trials were revealed on Friday after a judge agreed to partially lift reporting restrictions designed to ensure a fair trial.

    Following an application by media groups, including the Guardian, the harrowing details were disclosed in detail for the first time.


    I do think that once it's all concluded, an explanation needs to be given as to why reporting restrictions were in place. I know there are circumstances where this has to happen, but I can see why the likes of Robinson are suspicious. By having reporting restrictions, the case only gets revealed after it's happened and therefore the media coverage is much reduced.

    There were multiple linked trials.
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited October 2018
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Interesting to see that we're still not getting the full story on Huddersfield:

    https://tinyurl.com/y6uv788y

    The Huddersfield grooming trials were revealed on Friday after a judge agreed to partially lift reporting restrictions designed to ensure a fair trial.

    Following an application by media groups, including the Guardian, the harrowing details were disclosed in detail for the first time.


    I do think that once it's all concluded, an explanation needs to be given as to why reporting restrictions were in place. I know there are circumstances where this has to happen, but I can see why the likes of Robinson are suspicious. By having reporting restrictions, the case only gets revealed after it's happened and therefore the media coverage is much reduced.

    In this case, I seem tio recall that the trials were interlinked. A reporting restriction seemed A ok to me.
    Fine, but annoyingly that Guardian article doesn't actually say that which is infuriating. And they need to explain why they weren't tried together.
    too many to try all at one go and in different towns. I think the CPS have done ok, imho it was done for the right reasons. Reporting on trial one might have affected trials 2 and three and so on and so forth
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited October 2018
    Jessop

    I've worked with Syrian crews many times. I've shot for the Saudis many times. I've shot for the Saudis in Lebanon with mixed Syrian Lbanese crew before and after Sryria occupied Lebanon. The Saudi client I most often work for is one of 14 children with four mothers. He would be the first to tell you that being born a woman in Saudi is to pick the short straw. The regime is brutal (if you aren't a Saudi and a male). The Syrians by contrast respect (or not) their female population as they do their men. The subject is complicated

    To then hear you pontificating on it and anti semitism when you wouldn't know a Jew if you fell over one let alone an anti semite is just tiring
  • Options
    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    If you wanted to scrap the House of Lords you’d act as Jeremy Corbyn is acting. I expect he’d not bother replacing it. A unicameral system would suit his big plans much better.

    Yes, Corbyn views any disagreement with him as immoral. All political leaders have difficulty with this, but an inability to admit to a mistake is particularly acute with Corbyn.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Interesting to see that we're still not getting the full story on Huddersfield:

    https://tinyurl.com/y6uv788y

    The Huddersfield grooming trials were revealed on Friday after a judge agreed to partially lift reporting restrictions designed to ensure a fair trial.

    Following an application by media groups, including the Guardian, the harrowing details were disclosed in detail for the first time.


    I do think that once it's all concluded, an explanation needs to be given as to why reporting restrictions were in place. I know there are circumstances where this has to happen, but I can see why the likes of Robinson are suspicious. By having reporting restrictions, the case only gets revealed after it's happened and therefore the media coverage is much reduced.

    In this case, I seem tio recall that the trials were interlinked. A reporting restriction seemed A ok to me.
    Fine, but annoyingly that Guardian article doesn't actually say that which is infuriating. And they need to explain why they weren't tried together.
    too many to try all at one go and in different towns. I think the CPS have done ok, imho it was done for the right reasons. Reporting on trial one might have affected trials 2 and three and so on and so forth
    It would be helpful if the media reported it as such. Last night's Six O'Clock News suggested they were all together in Huddersfield. If that's not the case then they should say so.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,989
    Roger said:

    I've worked with Syrian crews many times. I've shot for the Saudis many times. I've shot for the Saudis in Lebanon with mixed Syrian Lbanese crew before and after Sryria occupied Lebanon. The Saudi client I most often work for is one of 14 children with four mothers. He would be the first to tell you that being born a woman in Saudi is to pick the short straw. The regime is brutal (if you aren't a Saudi). The Syrians by contrast respect (or not) their female population as they do their men. The subject is complicated

    To then hear you pontificating on it and anti semitism when you wouldn't know a Jew if you fell over one let alone an anti semite is just tiring

    Yes, it is complicated, and I condemn the Saudis for their actions against women and Khashoggi. However, that is not what we were talking about.

    Assad is indeed an equal-opportunities tyrant.

    https://www.dw.com/en/syrian-women-tortured-and-humiliated-in-assad-regime-prisons/a-43600204

    Assad doesn't care if he kills men or women. Which, to be fair, is something he shares with many other tyrants, for instance Hitler, Stalin, Mao et al.

    As for your last sentence; it's fairly disgusting. And not just that, it's wrong and ridiculous for several reasons.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,270

    If you wanted to scrap the House of Lords you’d act as Jeremy Corbyn is acting. I expect he’d not bother replacing it. A unicameral system would suit his big plans much better.

    Yes, Corbyn views any disagreement with him as immoral. All political leaders have difficulty with this, but an inability to admit to a mistake is particularly acute with Corbyn.
    The desire to control everything, and a belief in scrutiny and accountability that only appears when in opposition and evaporates when in office, is very typical of the left; it isn't personal to Corbyn. Watch how Labour behaves when it takes control of any local council.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,981
    Good morning, everyone.

    Interesting article on an underreported aspect of politics, Mr. Herdson.

    F1: Gasly was very fast in the wet in second practice (happily, I hadn't bet on him to 'win' first practice, or I would be quite annoyed). However, though qualifying is expected to be wet, the race is likely to be dry. Worse still for Toro Rosso, both cars have significant engine changes so they're starting at the back.

    Incidentally, third practice is at 7pm and the qualifying at 10pm, so the pre-qualifying blog will be up at the unusual hour of 8-9pm.

    Also, Vettel may well end up with a 3 place grid penalty for insufficiently slowing under red flags (may already be confirmed, I haven't checked yet).
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,327
    I'm not sure how much it helps Theresa, given how many of those Tory Lords are soaking wet (or even beyond that: just out-and-out europhile christian democrats) on Brexit.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,327

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    In a surprise to no-one 'Mister Bone Saw' had no idea at all what was going on.

    No! Really?

    https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1053491178782498817
    AMORAL doesn't begin to describe Trump. When he's finally ejected from office it'll be interesting to see the contempt and loathing with which not only him but the parasites who surround him -including his family-will be held.
    I could say the same about the anti-Semite currently leading the Labour Party.

    Or people who think Assad is just a little misunderstood ...
    Yes you could because you're a f**ing moron
    LOL. No.

    Please tell us again how Assad is a wonderful person ...
    You're making Wodger think too hard.

    Be gentle.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,327
    Pulpstar said:

    If you wanted to scrap the House of Lords you’d act as Jeremy Corbyn is acting. I expect he’d not bother replacing it. A unicameral system would suit his big plans much better.

    Perhaps a silver lining to his premiership.
    Doesn't he have to get a bill to scrap the House of Lords beyond, err, the House of Lords?

    Fiendishly difficult to do, as they'll almost certainly bat it back as many times as they can.

    FWIW, I quite like the House of Lords. I just wish there was a term-limit and more crossbenchers from more backgrounds and professions, and not just big businessman, retired politicans, bishops, barristers and law lords (sort of).

    Otherwise I think it by and large does a good job.
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited October 2018
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Interesting to see that we're still not getting the full story on Huddersfield:

    https://tinyurl.com/y6uv788y

    The Huddersfield grooming trials were revealed on Friday after a judge agreed to partially lift reporting restrictions designed to ensure a fair trial.

    Following an application by media groups, including the Guardian, the harrowing details were disclosed in detail for the first time.


    I do think that once it's all concluded, an explanation needs to be given as to why reporting restrictions were in place. I know there are circumstances where this has to happen, but I can see why the likes of Robinson are suspicious. By having reporting restrictions, the case only gets revealed after it's happened and therefore the media coverage is much reduced.

    In this case, I seem tio recall that the trials were interlinked. A reporting restriction seemed A ok to me.
    Fine, but annoyingly that Guardian article doesn't actually say that which is infuriating. And they need to explain why they weren't tried together.
    too many to try all at one go and in different towns. I think the CPS have done ok, imho it was done for the right reasons. Reporting on trial one might have affected trials 2 and three and so on and so forth
    It would be helpful if the media reported it as such. Last night's Six O'Clock News suggested they were all together in Huddersfield. If that's not the case then they should say so.
    PM on R4 was quite specific about it being different trials and the effect, BBC TV news is pandering to the LCD its unsurprising really, just as the BBC websites now has to explain things to suit those of an IQ of 90.Listen to R4 a bit more..
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,327
    Roger said:

    Jessop

    I've worked with Syrian crews many times. I've shot for the Saudis many times. I've shot for the Saudis in Lebanon with mixed Syrian Lbanese crew before and after Sryria occupied Lebanon. The Saudi client I most often work for is one of 14 children with four mothers. He would be the first to tell you that being born a woman in Saudi is to pick the short straw. The regime is brutal (if you aren't a Saudi and a male). The Syrians by contrast respect (or not) their female population as they do their men. The subject is complicated

    Yup. Syria is a shining example of gender equality and human rights, and in Saudi you're just a tad unlucky, but Trump's America is totally beyond the pale.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Clearly the HoL is an absurd, anti-democratic anachronism that has to go. It depressing that parties that temporarily benefit from its arithmetic lose sight of this.

    Hopefully Brexit will be the trigger for deep reform. After all you can argue to leave to the EU on democratic grounds and then keep something like that.

  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    In a surprise to no-one 'Mister Bone Saw' had no idea at all what was going on.

    No! Really?

    https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1053491178782498817
    AMORAL doesn't begin to describe Trump. When he's finally ejected from office it'll be interesting to see the contempt and loathing with which not only him but the parasites who surround him -including his family-will be held.
    I could say the same about the anti-Semite currently leading the Labour Party.

    Or people who think Assad is just a little misunderstood ...
    Yes you could because you're a f**ing moron
    Hmmm - sounds like the truth is pinching a little and the mask slips.
  • Options

    Pulpstar said:

    If you wanted to scrap the House of Lords you’d act as Jeremy Corbyn is acting. I expect he’d not bother replacing it. A unicameral system would suit his big plans much better.

    Perhaps a silver lining to his premiership.
    Doesn't he have to get a bill to scrap the House of Lords beyond, err, the House of Lords?

    Fiendishly difficult to do, as they'll almost certainly bat it back as many times as they can.

    FWIW, I quite like the House of Lords. I just wish there was a term-limit and more crossbenchers from more backgrounds and professions, and not just big businessman, retired politicans, bishops, barristers and law lords (sort of).

    Otherwise I think it by and large does a good job.
    If he puts it in his manifesto and wins a majority the Salisbury Addison convention kicks in.

    So he can abolish the Lords.

    If the Lords play silly beggars then he can rightly ask the Monarch to create 400 new peers to help vote in abolition.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,989

    Hmm do you have some kind of evidence of this, I certainly can't remember writing a post where I stated that every single weapon the Palestinians use is x or any other kind of statement that would preclude them using a Qassam. I think you have got confused much like when you accused of me of not being clear I was talking about the far right whilst quoting me mentioned the far right in your first line.

    Deliberate misinterpretation does not help your case.

    You called the rockets Palestinians fire at Israel 'fireworks'.

    When challenged, you changed it to 'advanced or enhanced fireworks.' Which is ridiculous, as that term covers everything from something I can buy in the local shop to a Space Shuttle SRB. You also quoted Norman Finkelstein in your defence, which is not exactly a good sign IMO.

    You then underplayed the number of people killed and injured, and doubted the psychological effects caused by the weapons.

    I am not misinterpreting what you said, deliberately or otherwise.

    But I am intrigued why you want to downplay the Palestinian attacks in such a manner, especially as there won't be peace until the attacks on both sides stop.
  • Options
    TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    Hmm do you have some kind of evidence of this, I certainly can't remember writing a post where I stated that every single weapon the Palestinians use is x or any other kind of statement that would preclude them using a Qassam. I think you have got confused much like when you accused of me of not being clear I was talking about the far right whilst quoting me mentioned the far right in your first line.

    Deliberate misinterpretation does not help your case.

    You called the rockets Palestinians fire at Israel 'fireworks'.

    When challenged, you changed it to 'advanced or enhanced fireworks.' Which is ridiculous, as that term covers everything from something I can buy in the local shop to a Space Shuttle SRB. You also quoted Norman Finkelstein in your defence, which is not exactly a good sign IMO.

    You then underplayed the number of people killed and injured, and doubted the psychological effects caused by the weapons.

    I am not misinterpreting what you said, deliberately or otherwise.

    But I am intrigued why you want to downplay the Palestinian attacks in such a manner, especially as there won't be peace until the attacks on both sides stop.
    Okay now I'm pretty sure you are making things up in regards to me talking about the psychological effects.

    I did mention the Palestinians as using glorified fireworks and then linked something talking about them being advanced or enhanced fireworks. That is how you get hundreds of missiles fired and very little damage or casualties. It does make a good PR talking point much like the use of weapons of mass destruction.

    TBH if you were informed about the conflict and wanted the conflict to end you would want the occupation to end, expecting the Palestinians to not put up a token resistance whilst under brutal occupation is either an excuse for supporting the continuation of the occupation or a position based on ignorance.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,910

    Pulpstar said:

    If you wanted to scrap the House of Lords you’d act as Jeremy Corbyn is acting. I expect he’d not bother replacing it. A unicameral system would suit his big plans much better.

    Perhaps a silver lining to his premiership.
    Doesn't he have to get a bill to scrap the House of Lords beyond, err, the House of Lords?

    Fiendishly difficult to do, as they'll almost certainly bat it back as many times as they can.

    FWIW, I quite like the House of Lords. I just wish there was a term-limit and more crossbenchers from more backgrounds and professions, and not just big businessman, retired politicans, bishops, barristers and law lords (sort of).

    Otherwise I think it by and large does a good job.
    Far too many deadbeats, chums , etc who just pocket the money and quaff the subsidised champers. It has been so sullied by all the placemen/placewomen that it is totally sullied and only fit for being shut down.
    When you have absolute deadbeats like that loser Mone in it you know it is rotten to the core.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,249

    Pulpstar said:

    If you wanted to scrap the House of Lords you’d act as Jeremy Corbyn is acting. I expect he’d not bother replacing it. A unicameral system would suit his big plans much better.

    Perhaps a silver lining to his premiership.
    Doesn't he have to get a bill to scrap the House of Lords beyond, err, the House of Lords?

    Fiendishly difficult to do, as they'll almost certainly bat it back as many times as they can.

    FWIW, I quite like the House of Lords. I just wish there was a term-limit and more crossbenchers from more backgrounds and professions, and not just big businessman, retired politicans, bishops, barristers and law lords (sort of).

    Otherwise I think it by and large does a good job.
    If he puts it in his manifesto and wins a majority the Salisbury Addison convention kicks in.

    So he can abolish the Lords.

    If the Lords play silly beggars then he can rightly ask the Monarch to create 400 new peers to help vote in abolition.
    I have no doubt in my mind that Corbyn is not fit to be PM of this country morally, intellectually or in terms of judgment. There is always a silver lining, however, and if it took an iconoclast like Corbyn to finally rid us of this embarrassment, as we have been trying to do for over 100 years now, I would welcome it.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,327

    Pulpstar said:

    If you wanted to scrap the House of Lords you’d act as Jeremy Corbyn is acting. I expect he’d not bother replacing it. A unicameral system would suit his big plans much better.

    Perhaps a silver lining to his premiership.
    Doesn't he have to get a bill to scrap the House of Lords beyond, err, the House of Lords?

    Fiendishly difficult to do, as they'll almost certainly bat it back as many times as they can.

    FWIW, I quite like the House of Lords. I just wish there was a term-limit and more crossbenchers from more backgrounds and professions, and not just big businessman, retired politicans, bishops, barristers and law lords (sort of).

    Otherwise I think it by and large does a good job.
    If he puts it in his manifesto and wins a majority the Salisbury Addison convention kicks in.

    So he can abolish the Lords.

    If the Lords play silly beggars then he can rightly ask the Monarch to create 400 new peers to help vote in abolition.
    Yes, I know.

    But it still takes up multiple parliamentary sessions, and is fiendishly difficult to do. Plus, I doubt he'll win a very strong majority, which will make his amendments and bills vulnerable to ambush in the HoC too.

    I reckon he might have other priorities in his first term.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,981
    edited October 2018
    F1: Vettel's 3 place grid penalty throws up some interesting betting possibilities. Bottas odds to win (thinking of the each way aspect) has fallen from 8.5 to 7, Vettel's lengthened from circa 4.5 to 7.

    Thing is, qualifying is likely to be wet, and the race likely to be dry. For most cars, the Ferrari's still miles too good, but passing Red Bulls or Mercedes will be trickier.

    Edited extra bit: I think I'll wait until after qualifying to consider the race implications.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,327
    Jonathan said:

    Clearly the HoL is an absurd, anti-democratic anachronism that has to go. It depressing that parties that temporarily benefit from its arithmetic lose sight of this.

    Hopefully Brexit will be the trigger for deep reform. After all you can argue to leave to the EU on democratic grounds and then keep something like that.

    Why wouldn't you advocate an elected second chamber instead?

    Surely, you think it's a good thing to have a revising chamber that scrutinises the details of proposed bill separate from the febrile atmosphere of the primary chamber?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,249
    That is a really good score for Sri Lanka for a change. Tricky wicket. Seemed to me that England lost a lot of intensity over the second half of the innings with some pretty ordinary fielding by their own high standards.

    With Hales in for YJB the start is going to be important.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,994
    The HoL is clearly an antidemocratic anachronism that needs to go ASAFP. We should have a tricameral system like the French Consular period: a tribune which discusses legislation but cannot vote on it, a legislative assembly which votes on it but cannot discuss it and a senate which checks it for constitutional compliance.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited October 2018

    Jonathan said:

    Clearly the HoL is an absurd, anti-democratic anachronism that has to go. It depressing that parties that temporarily benefit from its arithmetic lose sight of this.

    Hopefully Brexit will be the trigger for deep reform. After all you can argue to leave to the EU on democratic grounds and then keep something like that.

    Why wouldn't you advocate an elected second chamber instead?

    Surely, you think it's a good thing to have a revising chamber that scrutinises the details of proposed bill separate from the febrile atmosphere of the primary chamber?
    A small elected senate of the nations/regions.
    Alternatively the runners up in GE.

    But not appointed or hereditary.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,249
    Dura_Ace said:

    The HoL is clearly an antidemocratic anachronism that needs to go ASAFP. We should have a tricameral system like the French Consular period: a tribune which discusses legislation but cannot vote on it, a legislative assembly which votes on it but cannot discuss it and a senate which checks it for constitutional compliance.

    Christ, it would take another 100 years to sort that lot out.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,249
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Clearly the HoL is an absurd, anti-democratic anachronism that has to go. It depressing that parties that temporarily benefit from its arithmetic lose sight of this.

    Hopefully Brexit will be the trigger for deep reform. After all you can argue to leave to the EU on democratic grounds and then keep something like that.

    Why wouldn't you advocate an elected second chamber instead?

    Surely, you think it's a good thing to have a revising chamber that scrutinises the details of proposed bill separate from the febrile atmosphere of the primary chamber?
    A small elected senate of the nations/regions.
    Alternatively the runners up in GE.

    But not appointed or hereditary.
    The problem with all these options is that there is no consensus and we can spend another 50 years debating it. Clearly we will need to beef up the revision capacity of the HoC but I am not persuaded that we need a second chamber to do it.
  • Options
    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    DavidL said:

    That is a really good score for Sri Lanka for a change. Tricky wicket. Seemed to me that England lost a lot of intensity over the second half of the innings with some pretty ordinary fielding by their own high standards.

    With Hales in for YJB the start is going to be important.

    The start will be important because of the likelihood of afternoon monsoon rain curtailing the match.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,599
    DavidL said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Clearly the HoL is an absurd, anti-democratic anachronism that has to go. It depressing that parties that temporarily benefit from its arithmetic lose sight of this.

    Hopefully Brexit will be the trigger for deep reform. After all you can argue to leave to the EU on democratic grounds and then keep something like that.

    Why wouldn't you advocate an elected second chamber instead?

    Surely, you think it's a good thing to have a revising chamber that scrutinises the details of proposed bill separate from the febrile atmosphere of the primary chamber?
    A small elected senate of the nations/regions.
    Alternatively the runners up in GE.

    But not appointed or hereditary.
    The problem with all these options is that there is no consensus and we can spend another 50 years debating it. Clearly we will need to beef up the revision capacity of the HoC but I am not persuaded that we need a second chamber to do it.
    More effective committee scrutiny is needed. The Commons should not need a revising chamber to sort out poorly constructed legislation. It should sort out its own mess.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,249

    DavidL said:

    That is a really good score for Sri Lanka for a change. Tricky wicket. Seemed to me that England lost a lot of intensity over the second half of the innings with some pretty ordinary fielding by their own high standards.

    With Hales in for YJB the start is going to be important.

    The start will be important because of the likelihood of afternoon monsoon rain curtailing the match.
    Weather looks pretty good at the moment but I acknowledge it can change quickly. I suspect the Sri Lankans will start with spin and wickets are going to be key. Good steady start wins the game.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,249
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Clearly the HoL is an absurd, anti-democratic anachronism that has to go. It depressing that parties that temporarily benefit from its arithmetic lose sight of this.

    Hopefully Brexit will be the trigger for deep reform. After all you can argue to leave to the EU on democratic grounds and then keep something like that.

    Why wouldn't you advocate an elected second chamber instead?

    Surely, you think it's a good thing to have a revising chamber that scrutinises the details of proposed bill separate from the febrile atmosphere of the primary chamber?
    A small elected senate of the nations/regions.
    Alternatively the runners up in GE.

    But not appointed or hereditary.
    The problem with all these options is that there is no consensus and we can spend another 50 years debating it. Clearly we will need to beef up the revision capacity of the HoC but I am not persuaded that we need a second chamber to do it.
    More effective committee scrutiny is needed. The Commons should not need a revising chamber to sort out poorly constructed legislation. It should sort out its own mess.
    Agreed. As I have said before the Scottish system of inviting evidence by experts in the field may well have some advantages too. Would also give more purpose to the existence of the average back bencher too.
  • Options
    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    Pulpstar said:

    If you wanted to scrap the House of Lords you’d act as Jeremy Corbyn is acting. I expect he’d not bother replacing it. A unicameral system would suit his big plans much better.

    Perhaps a silver lining to his premiership.
    Doesn't he have to get a bill to scrap the House of Lords beyond, err, the House of Lords?

    Fiendishly difficult to do, as they'll almost certainly bat it back as many times as they can.

    FWIW, I quite like the House of Lords. I just wish there was a term-limit and more crossbenchers from more backgrounds and professions, and not just big businessman, retired politicans, bishops, barristers and law lords (sort of).

    Otherwise I think it by and large does a good job.
    If he puts it in his manifesto and wins a majority the Salisbury Addison convention kicks in.

    So he can abolish the Lords.

    If the Lords play silly beggars then he can rightly ask the Monarch to create 400 new peers to help vote in abolition.
    I'm not sure that he would want to have Lords abolition in the manifesto. It would look like he wasn't focused on important economic and public service issues.

    A referendum for Lords abolition after they've blocked a renationalisation could happen though.

    That would be pretty bad. We need the check and balance of a second chamber, but the current Lords is indefensible. Another example where short-term thinking by the Tories during the Coalition would come back to haunt them. If they'd sorted out reform then the place wouldn't be vulnerable to abolition when a PM Corbyn is seeking to remove the limits to his power.
  • Options
    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    DavidL said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Clearly the HoL is an absurd, anti-democratic anachronism that has to go. It depressing that parties that temporarily benefit from its arithmetic lose sight of this.

    Hopefully Brexit will be the trigger for deep reform. After all you can argue to leave to the EU on democratic grounds and then keep something like that.

    Why wouldn't you advocate an elected second chamber instead?

    Surely, you think it's a good thing to have a revising chamber that scrutinises the details of proposed bill separate from the febrile atmosphere of the primary chamber?
    A small elected senate of the nations/regions.
    Alternatively the runners up in GE.

    But not appointed or hereditary.
    The problem with all these options is that there is no consensus and we can spend another 50 years debating it. Clearly we will need to beef up the revision capacity of the HoC but I am not persuaded that we need a second chamber to do it.
    I think we need a second chamber because the Executive sits in and dominates the first. I want a stage in the legislative process that is independent of the Executive.

    I wouldn't call it a Senate though, and I'd appoint it by lot.
  • Options
    brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited October 2018

    There might not be any interesting by-elections in UK at the moment but there’s one in Australia. Could spell trouble for the PM.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-45924702

    Wentworth is like the RIchmond upon Thames of Australia covering a lot of the wealthiest parts of Sydney and was one of the safest Liberal party seats in the country - they have held it since 1901 which was the first federal election. Malcolm Turnbull the former PM who got dumped as leader was their local MP and understandably the locals aren't too happy with the Liberal party.

    Its now been called for the independent candidate Kerryn Phelps who has won win an estimated 27 per cent swing. Memories of the Richmond by election here post Brexit?

    So quite a dramatic protest and probably not a good sign for the Coalition for next year's election. The Coalition is now a minority government relying on independents - if it can persuade them - to get its legislation though.

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/live/2018/oct/20/wentworth-by-election-live-results-liberal-dave-sharma-kerryn-phelps-exit-poll-latest-news-updates
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,327
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Clearly the HoL is an absurd, anti-democratic anachronism that has to go. It depressing that parties that temporarily benefit from its arithmetic lose sight of this.

    Hopefully Brexit will be the trigger for deep reform. After all you can argue to leave to the EU on democratic grounds and then keep something like that.

    Why wouldn't you advocate an elected second chamber instead?

    Surely, you think it's a good thing to have a revising chamber that scrutinises the details of proposed bill separate from the febrile atmosphere of the primary chamber?
    A small elected senate of the nations/regions.
    Alternatively the runners up in GE.

    But not appointed or hereditary.
    Ok, fair enough.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725

    Pulpstar said:

    If you wanted to scrap the House of Lords you’d act as Jeremy Corbyn is acting. I expect he’d not bother replacing it. A unicameral system would suit his big plans much better.

    Perhaps a silver lining to his premiership.
    Doesn't he have to get a bill to scrap the House of Lords beyond, err, the House of Lords?

    Fiendishly difficult to do, as they'll almost certainly bat it back as many times as they can.

    FWIW, I quite like the House of Lords. I just wish there was a term-limit and more crossbenchers from more backgrounds and professions, and not just big businessman, retired politicans, bishops, barristers and law lords (sort of).

    Otherwise I think it by and large does a good job.
    If he puts it in his manifesto and wins a majority the Salisbury Addison convention kicks in.

    So he can abolish the Lords.

    If the Lords play silly beggars then he can rightly ask the Monarch to create 400 new peers to help vote in abolition.
    I'm not sure that he would want to have Lords abolition in the manifesto. It would look like he wasn't focused on important economic and public service issues.
    Did you read the 2017 manifesto? It had all manner of random minor promises throughout, it was a bit chaotic as a result, but didn't seem to undermine it's key appeals.
  • Options
    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    edited October 2018
    Committee scrutiny is all very well, but we've seen with the Brexit votes that backbenchers are reluctant to defeat their own government. The instinct for party unity - and to protect the government of your side - is too strong. That's why we shouldn't move to an elected second chamber.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079
    My brother is on a train to London at the moment, from Coventry. It’s not busy at all, apparently.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    An interesting piece though as it itself noted I don't know that it is of immediate concern for those involved.

    The Lords is one of those areas where it seems it should have been possible to arrive at a solution a long time ago, but as far as kicking cans go there's nothing to stop it being endless.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079
    kle4 said:

    An interesting piece though as it itself noted I don't know that it is of immediate concern for those involved.

    The Lords is one of those areas where it seems it should have been possible to arrive at a solution a long time ago, but as far as kicking cans go there's nothing to stop it being endless.

    Noone seems to have or want to discuss any big ideas in terms of the future of the country. This includes the future of the HoL as well as a long term solution to to the union such as further devolution and/or federalism.
  • Options
    brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    One thing that the people's vote crowd will never be overly specific about is what the questions on the ballot paper for their 'people's vote' will be. Its just a vague statement about 'a vote on the deal'.

    Its obvious they simply want to overturn the original vote and revert to remain - so why not just say so.

    Although its not clear even what remain means now (e.g. would we keep the rebate and if not the £350m gets closer to fact). Imagine the campaign - vote remain 'the other side want us to spend £350m a week on the NHS - lets subsidise French farmers and fund Slovakian motorways and Spanish metro system upgrades instead)!. If we decided to remain now I find it hard to believe the EU wouldn't seek to extract maximum concessions in our hour of humiliation afer having wasted their time for the last 2 and a half years.

    But as they start to march done Park Lane - what will be the question or questions on the ballot paper?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    I'm happy with the principal of an appointed chamber though I recognise the obvious flaws in it. But 2 quick changes would both reduce the bloated size of the chamber and make it more efficient.

    If you don't show up a certain number of times you lose your place (exceptions for illness act of course). We want people who are not perhaps the sort to generally do politics but they are still legislators as a result and need to put the time in. If they just want a fancy title that's what honours are for.

    And there must be a gap of x years between being an mp and becoming a peer. If you are standing down but immediately into the lords you're not really standing down. It lowers the number rewarded with a peerage and perhaps ensures more if those who are grandees get appointed.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Bravo to all the marchers. Lets hope it's huge
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725

    My brother is on a train to London at the moment, from Coventry. It’s not busy at all, apparently.

    I'm sure turnout will be good, but it'll be some tiresome posturing from both sides. We all know marches of the people are super important except when its convenient thst they are not, but there are expected lines to throw out .
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    DavidL said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Clearly the HoL is an absurd, anti-democratic anachronism that has to go. It depressing that parties that temporarily benefit from its arithmetic lose sight of this.

    Hopefully Brexit will be the trigger for deep reform. After all you can argue to leave to the EU on democratic grounds and then keep something like that.

    Why wouldn't you advocate an elected second chamber instead?

    Surely, you think it's a good thing to have a revising chamber that scrutinises the details of proposed bill separate from the febrile atmosphere of the primary chamber?
    A small elected senate of the nations/regions.
    Alternatively the runners up in GE.

    But not appointed or hereditary.
    The problem with all these options is that there is no consensus and we can spend another 50 years debating it. Clearly we will need to beef up the revision capacity of the HoC but I am not persuaded that we need a second chamber to do it.
    The next govt with a decent majority needs to push it through.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,599
    See you there?

    Party forming up at my brothers house, flags prepared!

    No Surrender to the Brexiteers!
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    If Brexit accelerates reform of Westminster/Whitehall that will be a thoroughly good thing.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    edited October 2018
    As noted previously Ed Milibands idea to have a constitutional convention on this and other topics wasn't a terrible idea.
  • Options
    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
  • Options
    brendan16 said:

    One thing that the people's vote crowd will never be overly specific about is what the questions on the ballot paper for their 'people's vote' will be. Its just a vague statement about 'a vote on the deal'.

    Its obvious they simply want to overturn the original vote and revert to remain - so why not just say so.

    Although its not clear even what remain means now (e.g. would we keep the rebate and if not the £350m gets closer to fact). Imagine the campaign - vote remain 'the other side want us to spend £350m a week on the NHS - lets subsidise French farmers and fund Slovakian motorways and Spanish metro system upgrades instead)!. If we decided to remain now I find it hard to believe the EU wouldn't seek to extract maximum concessions in our hour of humiliation afer having wasted their time for the last 2 and a half years.

    But as they start to march done Park Lane - what will be the question or questions on the ballot paper?
    Since after two and a half years we're not any clearer about what kind of Brexit it's going to be, it's hardly surprising that they're vague about a hypothetical 2nd ref q. Of course if you want to definitively state the form of Brexit towards which we're hurtling, I'm sure someone can come up with a question.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    Jonathan said:

    DavidL said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Clearly the HoL is an absurd, anti-democratic anachronism that has to go. It depressing that parties that temporarily benefit from its arithmetic lose sight of this.

    Hopefully Brexit will be the trigger for deep reform. After all you can argue to leave to the EU on democratic grounds and then keep something like that.

    Why wouldn't you advocate an elected second chamber instead?

    Surely, you think it's a good thing to have a revising chamber that scrutinises the details of proposed bill separate from the febrile atmosphere of the primary chamber?
    A small elected senate of the nations/regions.
    Alternatively the runners up in GE.

    But not appointed or hereditary.
    The problem with all these options is that there is no consensus and we can spend another 50 years debating it. Clearly we will need to beef up the revision capacity of the HoC but I am not persuaded that we need a second chamber to do it.
    The next govt with a decent majority needs to push it through.
    Might be a long time before we get one with a decent majority
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,989

    Okay now I'm pretty sure you are making things up in regards to me talking about the psychological effects.

    I did mention the Palestinians as using glorified fireworks and then linked something talking about them being advanced or enhanced fireworks. That is how you get hundreds of missiles fired and very little damage or casualties. It does make a good PR talking point much like the use of weapons of mass destruction.

    TBH if you were informed about the conflict and wanted the conflict to end you would want the occupation to end, expecting the Palestinians to not put up a token resistance whilst under brutal occupation is either an excuse for supporting the continuation of the occupation or a position based on ignorance.

    Nope. I'm not making it up. Still, thanks for insinuating I'm a liar.

    You said 'lob fireworks'. That's such a ridiculous trivialisation of what's happening that I have to wonder why you want to trivialise it. Is it because Israeli's don't matter?

    As it happens, there have been lots of casualties: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel#Casualties,_fatalities_and_rockets_fired

    And then there are the psychological effects. from Amnesty:
    "Scores [of rockets] have struck homes, businesses, schools, other public buildings and vehicles in and around towns and villages in southern Israel. It is purely by chance that in most cases such strikes have not caused death or injury, and the lethal potential of such projectiles should not be underestimated. Above all, the constant threat of impending rocket attacks has caused fear and disrupted the lives of the growing number of Israelis who live within range of such attacks, reaching up to a million.[22]"

    As for your last paragraph: if you wanted peace, you would understand that both sides need to move. Israel has much more room to move (and should), but that does not mean that the Palestinians cannot do some things. Two being recognising Israel's right to exist and stopping the rocket attacks. And yes, Israel need to do much more. But stopping the rocket attacks is a trivially easy first step.

    You'd be glad to know that Israel has not been attacked for three days now:
    http://israelhasbeenrocketfreefor.com/ (If you trust that site...)
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    Jonathan said:

    If Brexit accelerates reform of Westminster/Whitehall that will be a thoroughly good thing.

    It should be essential to use it as an opportunity to consider such reform, not thatch necessarily agree with everyone here on the bestsolutions, as it is an epochal moment.

    But I doubt it will happen.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    Foxy said:

    See you there?

    Party forming up at my brothers house, flags prepared!

    No Surrender to the Brexiteers!
    Have fun, although you prove the point that there is no reason they cannot just admit they only want remain, the vast majority anyway, since it isn't about the deal or not, it's about not surrending to brexit, so uncertainty over the potential question is irrelevant. But then sadly too many have been very unconcerned with honesty - learning from the very worst parts of the leave campaign.
  • Options
    brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited October 2018
    Alistair said:

    tlg86 said:

    Interesting to see that we're still not getting the full story on Huddersfield:

    https://tinyurl.com/y6uv788y

    The Huddersfield grooming trials were revealed on Friday after a judge agreed to partially lift reporting restrictions designed to ensure a fair trial.

    Following an application by media groups, including the Guardian, the harrowing details were disclosed in detail for the first time.


    I do think that once it's all concluded, an explanation needs to be given as to why reporting restrictions were in place. I know there are circumstances where this has to happen, but I can see why the likes of Robinson are suspicious. By having reporting restrictions, the case only gets revealed after it's happened and therefore the media coverage is much reduced.

    There were multiple linked trials.
    It certainly condenses the coverage into one day. Look at the Guardian website as an illustration - huge coverage of the death of a Saudi national in Turkey over a week ago as the top story but the systematic and organised rape and abuse of dozens of young British girls as young as 11 whose lives have been ruined for life is almost an afterthought mid way down the page.

    Its even less prominent than a story about problems recycling plastic causing many local authorities a few grand a year. Trump's comments about some Republican who pushed a Guardian journalist to the floor - not nice but not mass abuse - gets a bigger font.

    And I expect by Monday the media will have moved on.

    Me too only seems to apply to middle class liberals from London - poor young girls often from broken homes in the north of England (who have suffered far more brutally) just don't seem to be as important.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk
  • Options
    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    brendan16 said:

    One thing that the people's vote crowd will never be overly specific about is what the questions on the ballot paper for their 'people's vote' will be. Its just a vague statement about 'a vote on the deal'.

    Its obvious they simply want to overturn the original vote and revert to remain - so why not just say so.

    Although its not clear even what remain means now (e.g. would we keep the rebate and if not the £350m gets closer to fact). Imagine the campaign - vote remain 'the other side want us to spend £350m a week on the NHS - lets subsidise French farmers and fund Slovakian motorways and Spanish metro system upgrades instead)!. If we decided to remain now I find it hard to believe the EU wouldn't seek to extract maximum concessions in our hour of humiliation afer having wasted their time for the last 2 and a half years.

    But as they start to march done Park Lane - what will be the question or questions on the ballot paper?
    It does not matter now. There won't be a second vote and it is too late to stop Brexit now. I am marching today simply to make sure Brexit is being contested. After today I will switch to opposing every specific instance of anything that pulls us further away from Europe and getting Europhobes out of public office.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,270

    My brother is on a train to London at the moment, from Coventry. It’s not busy at all, apparently.

    Coventry not being a hotbed of Remain protestors is hardly breaking news...
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725

    brendan16 said:

    One thing that the people's vote crowd will never be overly specific about is what the questions on the ballot paper for their 'people's vote' will be. Its just a vague statement about 'a vote on the deal'.

    Its obvious they simply want to overturn the original vote and revert to remain - so why not just say so.

    Although its not clear even what remain means now (e.g. would we keep the rebate and if not the £350m gets closer to fact). Imagine the campaign - vote remain 'the other side want us to spend £350m a week on the NHS - lets subsidise French farmers and fund Slovakian motorways and Spanish metro system upgrades instead)!. If we decided to remain now I find it hard to believe the EU wouldn't seek to extract maximum concessions in our hour of humiliation afer having wasted their time for the last 2 and a half years.

    But as they start to march done Park Lane - what will be the question or questions on the ballot paper?
    Since after two and a half years we're not any clearer about what kind of Brexit it's going to be, it's hardly surprising that they're vague about a hypothetical 2nd ref q. Of course if you want to definitively state the form of Brexit towards which we're hurtling, I'm sure someone can come up with a question.
    As foxy is cleAR it's about not surrending to the Brexiteers. Therefore they don't need to wait for the options to be clearer to be clear themselves on what they want to happen.

    I support a second ref with deal, no deal and remain as options. There's details I've not worked out, but the 'no surrender ' crowd clearly have no justifying reason to Not just be clear about preferred intention since it doesn't matter what the question is if you're already committed to a remain position.
  • Options
    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    edited October 2018
    https://www.wired.com/story/if-trump-is-laundering-russia.

    More on Scottish Golf Courses.

    Also in the Washington Post behind a paywall.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,332
    malcolmg said:



    Far too many deadbeats, chums , etc who just pocket the money and quaff the subsidised champers. It has been so sullied by all the placemen/placewomen that it is totally sullied and only fit for being shut down.
    When you have absolute deadbeats like that loser Mone in it you know it is rotten to the core.

    It's a curious mixture - some of the best minds in Britain, some who are there because they had a successful career (which may or may not be a sign of expertise at legislation), some who are borderline senile, some hereditaries, some simply moved there for political convenience (e.g. MPs threatened with Government-supported boundary changes). A friend who has given evidence to Select Committees in both Houses says that the Lords one included some searching, forensic questions which really made her think, and some entirely random anecdotal ramblings.

    I think there's a place for a revising chamber. My package would be:

    1. All appointments should be intended to represent different strands of British life, so there's an expert on everything. We need famous scientists and former Ministers, certainly, but also farmers, stockbrokers, single parents, recent immigrants, students, etc.

    2. All legislation should go first to the Lords for review on objective grounds. Does the legislation make sense, does it have loppholes, will it have unintended consequences? Amendments can be made but Bills cannot be rejected in their entirety, and the Commons can overturn the amendments at the political cost of being seen to overrule expert opinion.

    3. New legislation can be proposed from the Lords, including from backbenchers, and this must be given reasonable time for consideration in the Commons.

    4. The power of delay should be taken away. If a Bill is bad, they need to make the case why, not merely drag it out. It should be a revising chamber, not a delaying chamber.

    But I've never heard Corbyn mention it as a particular concern - I can well see him accepting a reform or abolition proposal, but not in a first term.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,989
    I fail to see what this march today will achieve, aside from making a lot of people feel good and angering others.

    It seems rather pointless. But this is a free country, and they're not doing anything illegal, so I hope they all have a lovely time. If any PBers are there, have fun!
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,994
    brendan16 said:



    Me too only seems to apply to middle class liberals from London - poor young girls often from broken homes in the north of England (who have suffered far more brutally) just don't seem to be as important.

    Social class is the defining aspect of this matter. The race and religion angle is just fodder for thick as fuck Tommybots. If those fuckers had been diddling private school girls from Berkshire then they'd have been locked up immediately. The authorities didn't turn a blind eye because of the race or religion of the perpetrators they ignored because of the social class of the victims.
This discussion has been closed.