The media are getting obsessed about the number of murders in London when the statistics show it's actually the second safest big city in the world after Tokyo.
It was interesting that 5 live did a story this morning that Brittany ferries has seen their post March 19 bookings collapse due to the uncertainty. The company was founded by Brittany farmers to attract UK holidaymakers and they have three new ferries on order. When asked their spokesperson said they, and all the channel ports, are directing anger towards their own government and that their government had to stop a no deal and agree a sensible deal with the UK
It is not all one way
Yes, but all, or most, of the 27 need to fall to that sort of pressure to cave. And we're half caved already given the split in the political class, and those desperately waiting for an opportunity to reverse it all.
Referendums are not a requirement of our political system. A future majority government could be elected on substantially less that 50% of the vote with a solid manifesto commitment to take us out of Europe (again).
Anecdote: I went to a posh party at the French Embassy this evening, celebrating the triumphs of French tourism etc etc (and why not, France excels in selling itself). One of the speakers was a Brit, a well known head of an arts quango, and she said in her speech "I know we all regret the tragedy of Brexit"....
blah blah blah
At the time I just stood there with my free glass of Puilly Fusse and quietly heckled under my breath.
Now I wish I had marched up to the stage and told her where the fuck to fuck off. She simply assumed that a large grand room full of affluent Londoners would all agree with her. Absolutely obnoxious on so many levels. How did she know there weren't rich Leavers, poor Leavers, eccentric Leavers, non-London Leavers, London Leavers, standing in her her audience?
Stupid cow. The voting evidence shows that a lot of middle/upper class Brits (even in London) voted Leave, even if it didn't, you don't make speeches assuming the largest political vote in British history (17.4m people) is a proletarian irrelevance which must be regretted by all, and hopefully overrruled.
Grrrr.
She could be pretty sure there'd be no 'poor Leavers' (or poor Remainers for that mattter) in the audience methinks.
It was interesting that 5 live did a story this morning that Brittany ferries has seen their post March 19 bookings collapse due to the uncertainty. The company was founded by Brittany farmers to attract UK holidaymakers and they have three new ferries on order. When asked their spokesperson said they, and all the channel ports, are directing anger towards their own government and that their government had to stop a no deal and agree a sensible deal with the UK
Curtice: strongest swing to Remain in those areas that were strongest for Leave.
Leave losing its heartlands.
There still won't be a 2nd vote before we Brexit in March 2019. For that to happen, Remoaners need wild polls showing the public 65/35 for Remain, at least. No sign of this.
The guns of August are being rolled onto the railtracks. We are leaving.
If I were an ultra-Remoaner, I'd be aiming for calamitous No Deal, a GE, and maybe a 2nd vote swiftly after. Trouble is, you need to get rid of eurosceptic Corbyn first.
No one who wants to remain asks the important question. How many of the 27 would want us to stay and continual be a pain in the neck
Some do ask that question, but there seem to be very contradictory answers between those who insist the EU no longer care about us at all or what we do (implying the EU are so stupid as to be uncaring what a very large nation on the doorstep does) and those who insist the EU really are just waiting for us to change our minds and we could be welcomed back in (but does not really address the point it seems improbable we could be a productive partner as we would be even more riven and bitter than now).
Every question seems to add more questions and if we had a second referendum how would the EU position be clarified before the voting
I reckon 80-90% of the public have no idea what May’s position is. I include myself in that. This is her genius.
Some despise it, nobody loves it, but what she has managed to get across is she is compromising, working to get agreement.Not sure how much that really helps her get it through the Commons though. I think the biggest risk is that the crunch point is also the best chance we have of simply remaining, so there's not much incentive for large number of MPs to back her up as they see a bigger prize on offer than merely avoiding no deal.
Are enough leavers convinced this is brexity enough to accept it, and are enough remainers fearful enough of no deal to accept it?
The media are getting obsessed about the number of murders in London when the statistics show it's actually the second safest big city in the world after Tokyo.
That's not a reason to be complacent given that it has recently got worse.
Anecdote: I went to a posh party at the French Embassy this evening, celebrating the triumphs of French tourism etc etc (and why not, France excels in selling itself). One of the speakers was a Brit, a well known head of an arts quango, and she said in her speech "I know we all regret the tragedy of Brexit"....
blah blah blah
At the time I just stood there with my free glass of Puilly Fusse and quietly heckled under my breath.
Now I wish I had marched up to the stage and told her where the fuck to fuck off. She simply assumed that a large grand room full of affluent Londoners would all agree with her. Absolutely obnoxious on so many levels. How did she know there weren't rich Leavers, poor Leavers, eccentric Leavers, non-London Leavers, London Leavers, standing in her her audience?
Stupid cow. The voting evidence shows that a lot of middle/upper class Brits (even in London) voted Leave, even if it didn't, you don't make speeches assuming the largest political vote in British history (17.4m people) is a proletarian irrelevance which must be regretted by all, and hopefully overrruled.
Grrrr.
I did a presentation today on Brexit to a bunch of people in my organisation.
Someone quipped "if I knew it was going to turn out like this I would have voted remain"
I said, oh, did you vote leave and change your mind then?
To which he replied that he had voted leave and most definitely had not changed his mind.
A couple of others piped up that they had voted leave and had not changed their minds.
Range of ages in than bunch from 20's to 50's
I'm guessing in retelling this anecdote that you don't yourself see the illogicality of your colleague's statement?
Anecdote: I went to a posh party at the French Embassy this evening, celebrating the triumphs of French tourism etc etc (and why not, France excels in selling itself). One of the speakers was a Brit, a well known head of an arts quango, and she said in her speech "I know we all regret the tragedy of Brexit"....
blah blah blah
At the time I just stood there with my free glass of Puilly Fusse and quietly heckled under my breath.
Now I wish I had marched up to the stage and told her where the fuck to fuck off. She simply assumed that a large grand room full of affluent Londoners would all agree with her. Absolutely obnoxious on so many levels. How did she know there weren't rich Leavers, poor Leavers, eccentric Leavers, non-London Leavers, London Leavers, standing in her her audience?
Stupid cow. The voting evidence shows that a lot of middle/upper class Brits (even in London) voted Leave, even if it didn't, you don't make speeches assuming the largest political vote in British history (17.4m people) is a proletarian irrelevance which must be regretted by all, and hopefully overrruled.
Grrrr.
I did a presentation today on Brexit to a bunch of people in my organisation.
Someone quipped "if I knew it was going to turn out like this I would have voted remain"
I said, oh, did you vote leave and change your mind then?
To which he replied that he had voted leave and most definitely had not changed his mind.
A couple of others piped up that they had voted leave and had not changed their minds.
Range of ages in than bunch from 20's to 50's
Conversely, anytime Brexit pops up in mine it is talk about how stupid leaving is and leavers are, and what a waste of time it has all been. I take the coward's way out and remain quiet.
The media are getting obsessed about the number of murders in London when the statistics show it's actually the second safest big city in the world after Tokyo.
Interesting blog post which argues that what's happening in American politics at the moment is a descent into magical thinking on both sides of the partisan divide.
Anecdote: I went to a posh party at the French Embassy this evening, celebrating the triumphs of French tourism etc etc (and why not, France excels in selling itself). One of the speakers was a Brit, a well known head of an arts quango, and she said in her speech "I know we all regret the tragedy of Brexit"....
blah blah blah
At the time I just stood there with my free glass of Puilly Fusse and quietly heckled under my breath.
Now I wish I had marched up to the stage and told her where the fuck to fuck off. She simply assumed that a large grand room full of affluent Londoners would all agree with her. Absolutely obnoxious on so many levels. How did she know there weren't rich Leavers, poor Leavers, eccentric Leavers, non-London Leavers, London Leavers, standing in her her audience?
Stupid cow. The voting evidence shows that a lot of middle/upper class Brits (even in London) voted Leave, even if it didn't, you don't make speeches assuming the largest political vote in British history (17.4m people) is a proletarian irrelevance which must be regretted by all, and hopefully overrruled.
Grrrr.
I did a presentation today on Brexit to a bunch of people in my organisation.
Someone quipped "if I knew it was going to turn out like this I would have voted remain"
I said, oh, did you vote leave and change your mind then?
To which he replied that he had voted leave and most definitely had not changed his mind.
A couple of others piped up that they had voted leave and had not changed their minds.
Range of ages in than bunch from 20's to 50's
Conversely, anytime Brexit pops up in mine it is talk about how stupid leaving is and leavers are, and what a waste of time it has all been. I take the coward's way out and remain quiet.
Very few people, from either side, will admit in open discussion they got it wrong.
I spotted my first shy leaver on FB this week. Before during and shortly after the referendum he was carpet bombing memes about EU perfidy and Albion Redux. Now he's all about the People's Vote and unfunny Boris cartoons.
Anecdote: I went to a posh party at the French Embassy this evening, celebrating the triumphs of French tourism etc etc (and why not, France excels in selling itself). One of the speakers was a Brit, a well known head of an arts quango, and she said in her speech "I know we all regret the tragedy of Brexit"....
blah blah blah
At the time I just stood there with my free glass of Puilly Fusse and quietly heckled under my breath.
Now I wish I had marched up to the stage and told her where the fuck to fuck off. She simply assumed that a large grand room full of affluent Londoners would all agree with her. Absolutely obnoxious on so many levels. How did she know there weren't rich Leavers, poor Leavers, eccentric Leavers, non-London Leavers, London Leavers, standing in her her audience?
Stupid cow. The voting evidence shows that a lot of middle/upper class Brits (even in London) voted Leave, even if it didn't, you don't make speeches assuming the largest political vote in British history (17.4m people) is a proletarian irrelevance which must be regretted by all, and hopefully overrruled.
Grrrr.
I did a presentation today on Brexit to a bunch of people in my organisation.
Someone quipped "if I knew it was going to turn out like this I would have voted remain"
I said, oh, did you vote leave and change your mind then?
To which he replied that he had voted leave and most definitely had not changed his mind.
A couple of others piped up that they had voted leave and had not changed their minds.
Range of ages in than bunch from 20's to 50's
Conversely, anytime Brexit pops up in mine it is talk about how stupid leaving is and leavers are, and what a waste of time it has all been. I take the coward's way out and remain quiet.
Very few people, from either side, will admit in open discussion they got it wrong.
I'm happy to tell people I have plenty of regrets in the way I voted, in election or referendum time, but it doesn't really aid anything in an open discussion, since it just doesn't dissolve tensions it just increases them as people almost get angrier at those with regrets, since that means you should have been able to see your folly beforehand. Unless it's anonymous or in a situation where you know it won't come up again endlessly, it's better not to introduce divergent points of view into the mix for the sake of harmony.
Curtice: strongest swing to Remain in those areas that were strongest for Leave.
Leave losing its heartlands.
I wonder if there's a distinction between areas which voted Leave because voters were strongly in favour of the concept of Leave itself versus areas which were mainly doing so more as an anti-establishment vote. It could be that the former areas are more likely to still be Leave today.
In other words the areas which voted Leave to kick the establishment feel they've already achieved what they wanted to achieve and wouldn't necessarily vote Leave again in the same numbers, whereas the areas which voted Leave on policy issues are more likely to stick with their previous decision.
Curtice: strongest swing to Remain in those areas that were strongest for Leave.
Leave losing its heartlands.
I wonder if there's a distinction between areas which voted Leave because voters were strongly in favour of the concept of Leave itself versus areas which were mainly doing so more as an anti-establishment vote. It could be that the former areas are more likely to still be Leave today.
In other words the areas which voted Leave to kick the establishment feel they've already achieved what they wanted to achieve and wouldn't necessarily vote Leave again in the same numbers, whereas the areas which voted Leave on policy issues are more likely to stick with their previous decision.
What about those people who only did it because they were told to by Russian bots and a poster or bus they probably never saw?
Curtice: strongest swing to Remain in those areas that were strongest for Leave.
Leave losing its heartlands.
I wonder if there's a distinction between areas which voted Leave because voters were strongly in favour of the concept of Leave itself versus areas which were mainly doing so more as an anti-establishment vote. It could be that the former areas are more likely to still be Leave today.
In other words the areas which voted Leave to kick the establishment feel they've already achieved what they wanted to achieve and wouldn't necessarily vote Leave again in the same numbers, whereas the areas which voted Leave on policy issues are more likely to stick with their previous decision.
You may well be right, the areas with the biggest swings to Remain in the Survation study were previously strong UKIP, Tory Leaverstan much less so.
It may also simply that they were anti-immigrant rather than anti manufacturing exports.
When Wales voted by 50.3% to 49.7% in favour of the Welsh Assembly, was it often described as being terribly divided? I don't think it was, or at least not for more than a few days after the result was announced.
When Wales voted by 50.3% to 49.7% in favour of the Welsh Assembly, was it often described as being terribly divided? I don't think it was, or at least not for more than a few days after the result was announced.
Anecdote: I went to a posh party at the French Embassy this evening, celebrating the triumphs of French tourism etc etc (and why not, France excels in selling itself). One of the speakers was a Brit, a well known head of an arts quango, and she said in her speech "I know we all regret the tragedy of Brexit"....
blah blah blah
At the time I just stood there with my free glass of Puilly Fusse and quietly heckled under my breath.
Now I wish I had marched up to the stage and told her where the fuck to fuck off. She simply assumed that a large grand room full of affluent Londoners would all agree with her. Absolutely obnoxious on so many levels. How did she know there weren't rich Leavers, poor Leavers, eccentric Leavers, non-London Leavers, London Leavers, standing in her her audience?
Stupid cow. The voting evidence shows that a lot of middle/upper class Brits (even in London) voted Leave, even if it didn't, you don't make speeches assuming the largest political vote in British history (17.4m people) is a proletarian irrelevance which must be regretted by all, and hopefully overrruled.
Grrrr.
She could be pretty sure there'd be no 'poor Leavers' (or poor Remainers for that mattter) in the audience methinks.
It was still vile snobbery, and absurdly partisan, and it's shit like this that makes a reluctant Leaver like me harden in my Brexity-ness. So: utterly counter productive. And still Remainers don't seem to understand this,
Maybe she just enjoys triggering oversensitive Leavers?
Anecdote on the shifting sands of immigration: a fellow-poker player this evening - electrician - chatting in the break, said, "Funny thing today, might interest you as a political bloke. I'm not a racist but..." (uh-oh) "...today I saw two people at a Legion stand selling poppies, and they looked like Muslims."
Me: "That's good, isn't it? We need integration, if they want to honour deceased British soldiers, that's great."
Him: "Hmm, yes, I suppose you're right. I hadn't thought of it that way."
Me: "Lots of Muslims have fought in the British Army, after all."
Him (scratching head): "Yes, that's true, I suppose."
I'm not making fun of him. He's a nice guy, and genuinely wrestling with his instinct, which is to feel that people who "look like Muslims" are probably a bit dodgy, so even positive evidence to the contrary is hard to swallow.
Curtice: strongest swing to Remain in those areas that were strongest for Leave.
Leave losing its heartlands.
I wonder if there's a distinction between areas which voted Leave because voters were strongly in favour of the concept of Leave itself versus areas which were mainly doing so more as an anti-establishment vote. It could be that the former areas are more likely to still be Leave today.
In other words the areas which voted Leave to kick the establishment feel they've already achieved what they wanted to achieve and wouldn't necessarily vote Leave again in the same numbers, whereas the areas which voted Leave on policy issues are more likely to stick with their previous decision.
You may well be right, the areas with the biggest swings to Remain in the Survation study were previously strong UKIP, Tory Leaverstan much less so.
It may also simply that they were anti-immigrant rather than anti manufacturing exports.
Or anti -Cameron led Tory govt. Heresy on PB I know.
When Wales voted by 50.3% to 49.7% in favour of the Welsh Assembly, was it often described as being terribly divided? I don't think it was, or at least not for more than a few days after the result was announced.
Yes, that is the intent of Kent Police’s planned Operation Brock, which will be in addition to the M20 being used as a lorry park which is what happens at the moment under Operation Stack when there’s cross-channel disruption.
Have to say, I'm actually unbothered about the midterms. Haven't bet on it at all either which probably contributes to my lack of care. In the non-betting world I'm not sure it makes very much if a difference either, Trump seems to have sidestepped the House for his sanctions and national security tariffs.
In California, turnout is likely to be elevated due to Proposition 7 being on the ballot paper: will the state give up the traditional "spring forward, fall back" time changes?
Have to say, I'm actually unbothered about the midterms. Haven't bet on it at all either which probably contributes to my lack of care. In the non-betting world I'm not sure it makes very much if a difference either, Trump seems to have sidestepped the House for his sanctions and national security tariffs.
In California, turnout is likely to be elevated due to Proposition 7 being on the ballot paper: will the state give up the traditional "spring forward, fall back" time changes?
The odd thing about that mnemonic is that its opposite is equally plausible: spring back, fall forwards.
Curtice: strongest swing to Remain in those areas that were strongest for Leave.
Leave losing its heartlands.
There still won't be a 2nd vote before we Brexit in March 2019. For that to happen, Remoaners need wild polls showing the public 65/35 for Remain, at least. No sign of this.
The guns of August are being rolled onto the railtracks. We are leaving.
If I were an ultra-Remoaner, I'd be aiming for calamitous No Deal, a GE, and maybe a 2nd vote swiftly after. Trouble is, you need to get rid of eurosceptic Corbyn first.
No one who wants to remain asks the important question. How many of the 27 would want us to stay and continual be a pain in the neck
You can't be entirely confident about anything where there are 28 veto points but there are lots of cases of other PMs and EP/Commission bigwigs saying they want Britain to stay, and IIUC zero of them saying the opposite.
Getting back in after actually leaving would be a different story, though.
The channel 4 prog and accompanying poll gives us Remoaners quite a bit of hope. The mood seemed to have changed. The studio Leavers had lost their mojos and I include Farage. He flapped like a beached fish but his heart wasn't in it.
Other Leavers admitted-sheepishly-that their motivation was preventing FOM but it soon became obvious that they weren't talking about EU immigration. It was the unmentionables on Farage's poster which he didn't want talked about.
The Leavers hadn't thought it through. When the farmer came on and said they couldn't get seasonal workers to do their fruit picking and packaging and their produce was rotting in the fields meaning they had to move to a three day week you could feel a frisson. These weren't the benefit cheats of the Daily Mail's imagination.
The two MPs didn't know what to say when the poll was announced. They were fighting every politicians instinct to follow the voters. Defending a position where we'd be worse off AND seeing the public swing against them in ever increasing numbers left them squirming
Curtice: strongest swing to Remain in those areas that were strongest for Leave.
Leave losing its heartlands.
There still won't be a 2nd vote before we Brexit in March 2019. For that to happen, Remoaners need wild polls showing the public 65/35 for Remain, at least. No sign of this.
The guns of August are being rolled onto the railtracks. We are leaving.
If I were an ultra-Remoaner, I'd be aiming for calamitous No Deal, a GE, and maybe a 2nd vote swiftly after. Trouble is, you need to get rid of eurosceptic Corbyn first.
No one who wants to remain asks the important question. How many of the 27 would want us to stay and continual be a pain in the neck
27
As a leaver I am sad about this, but I think it is a true statement. They really, really do want us to stay. Just listen to Philppe Lamberts on Sky he really wants us to have another vote.
The other 27 know that the UK leaving the EU is going to cause them problems, and like most people going to the dentist for an extraction are not keen on the idea, however they can also see the relief once it is over. Getting rid of a right pain in the mouth.
However, it only takes one of the 27 to say no, and we will be stuffed. The Irish consider that they have spent too much blood to back down, while we in GB think the Troubles ended 20 years ago and can be forgotten. It is still too raw and deep in the Irish, North and South psyche
Curtice: strongest swing to Remain in those areas that were strongest for Leave.
Leave losing its heartlands.
There still won't be a 2nd vote before we Brexit in March 2019. For that to happen, Remoaners need wild polls showing the public 65/35 for Remain, at least. No sign of this.
The guns of August are being rolled onto the railtracks. We are leaving.
If I were an ultra-Remoaner, I'd be aiming for calamitous No Deal, a GE, and maybe a 2nd vote swiftly after. Trouble is, you need to get rid of eurosceptic Corbyn first.
No one who wants to remain asks the important question. How many of the 27 would want us to stay and continual be a pain in the neck
You can't be entirely confident about anything where there are 28 veto points but there are lots of cases of other PMs and EP/Commission bigwigs saying they want Britain to stay, and IIUC zero of them saying the opposite.
Getting back in after actually leaving would be a different story, though.
Will it really be so hard to get back in?
It took Estonia 9 years from applying for membership to getting in. Having already been a member (and being a net contributor), we should be quicker. Perhaps 5 years?
It took Estonia 9 years from applying for membership to getting in. Having already been a member (and being a net contributor), we should be quicker. Perhaps 5 years?
Well, it's hard to say, but it's not hard to imagine one of the governing parties or opposition parties in charge of another chamber figuring they could score some points by being difficult about it - especially if they were also being asked to waive the Euro requirement, which could easily be a deal-breaker on the UK side.
It's much easier if we're just talking about an extension and/or cancellation (if necessary disguised as a very long extension) because you only have to worry about the leaders, the more difficult of whom are at least somewhat subject to peer pressure and the threat of having to stay up all night arguing about things.
It took Estonia 9 years from applying for membership to getting in. Having already been a member (and being a net contributor), we should be quicker. Perhaps 5 years?
Well, it's hard to say, but it's not hard to imagine one of the governing parties or opposition parties in charge of another chamber figuring they could score some points by being difficult about it - especially if they were also being asked to wave the Euro requirement, which could easily be a deal-breaker on the UK side.
It's much easier if we're just talking about an extension and/or cancellation (if necessary disguised as a very long extension) because you only have to worry about the leaders, the more difficult of whom are at least somewhat subject to peer pressure and the threat of having to stay up all night arguing about things.
I'm sure you're right about it being more difficult than just cancelling Brexit.
On the Eurozone, Denmark has an opt-out (and obviously so did we), so there is still a clear precedent. Also lots of other countries are supposed to join, but aren't in any rush - like Sweden, Poland, Czech Republic. Anyone looking to bounce the UK into the Euro would run up against plenty of opposition from other countries not keen to join.
I'm sure you're right about it being more difficult than just cancelling Brexit.
On the Eurozone, Denmark has an opt-out (and obviously so did we), so there is still a clear precedent. Also lots of other countries are supposed to join, but aren't in any rush - like Sweden, Poland, Czech Republic. Anyone looking to bounce the UK into the Euro would run up against plenty of opposition from other countries not keen to join.
Right, I mean it's not like most of the EU would want the British to join the Euro particularly - they have enough problems already - but anything that looks like special treatment may become the target of some populist gobshite somewhere.
O/t. I see the people responsible for the awful 'Grenfell Tower' video have ‘surrendered' to the police. Takes a bit of courage, and belated self-awareness, to all surrender in these circumstances, to be fair.
O/t. I see the people responsible for the awful 'Grenfell Tower' video have ‘surrendered' to the police. Takes a bit of courage, and belated self-awareness, to all surrender in these circumstances, to be fair.
Hmm, not really sure the police should be involved with this, a fuckhead speech act is still a speech act.
O/t. I see the people responsible for the awful 'Grenfell Tower' video have ‘surrendered' to the police. Takes a bit of courage, and belated self-awareness, to all surrender in these circumstances, to be fair.
Hmm, not really sure the police should be involved with this, a fuckhead speech act is still a speech act.
I think the best course of action is for the media to have completely ignored them, then we would nearly all be in glorious ignorance of the sick and childish video they made. There will always be and always have been idiots in our society.
Problem is if our media can't be outraged it is nothing.
O/t. I see the people responsible for the awful 'Grenfell Tower' video have ‘surrendered' to the police. Takes a bit of courage, and belated self-awareness, to all surrender in these circumstances, to be fair.
Hmm, not really sure the police should be involved with this, a fuckhead speech act is still a speech act.
I think the best course of action is for the media to have completely ignored them, then we would nearly all be in glorious ignorance of the sick and childish video they made. There will always be and always have been idiots in our society.
Problem is if our media can't be outraged it is nothing.
The outrage bus doesn't need the media - at least traditional media. AIUI the video was posted on Facebook and the condemnation spread rapidly from there.
I agree with all those who say it was a sick thing to have done. I'm interested to see what happens next, and quite why it is categorised as a 'public order offence'.
When Wales voted by 50.3% to 49.7% in favour of the Welsh Assembly, was it often described as being terribly divided? I don't think it was, or at least not for more than a few days after the result was announced.
The Welsh Assembly was a very low turnout referendum, only 50.2 per cent. So, really the electorate voted
When Wales voted by 50.3% to 49.7% in favour of the Welsh Assembly, was it often described as being terribly divided? I don't think it was, or at least not for more than a few days after the result was announced.
But it wasn't really THAT important.
Yes it was. It established that Wales is an autonomous entity, and gave it the opportunity to run many of its own affairs, reversing significant aspects of the 1536 act of union imposed by Henry VIII. The loss of that vote would have been psychologically disastrous for the concept of Wales as a nation.
I was living in Cardiff at the time, and remember waking up at 0350 the following morning to find that NO was in the lead, only for the final votes from Carmarthen to come in a few minutes later to give YES the victory.
When Wales voted by 50.3% to 49.7% in favour of the Welsh Assembly, was it often described as being terribly divided? I don't think it was, or at least not for more than a few days after the result was announced.
But it wasn't really THAT important.
Yes it was. It established that Wales is an autonomous entity, and gave it the opportunity to run many of its own affairs, reversing significant aspects of the 1536 act of union imposed by Henry VIII. The loss of that vote would have been psychologically disastrous for the concept of Wales as a nation.
I was living in Cardiff at the time, and remember waking up at 0350 the following morning to find that NO was in the lead, only for the final votes from Carmarthen to come in a few minutes later to give YES the victory.
The irony is that the place that has done best out of the Welsh Assembly, Cardiff, actually voted No.
As a regular visitor to Cardiff over the years, I think it has very substantially improved the prosperity of parts of Cardiff. The rest of Wales, not so much.
It took Estonia 9 years from applying for membership to getting in. Having already been a member (and being a net contributor), we should be quicker. Perhaps 5 years?
Well, it's hard to say, but it's not hard to imagine one of the governing parties or opposition parties in charge of another chamber figuring they could score some points by being difficult about it - especially if they were also being asked to wave the Euro requirement, which could easily be a deal-breaker on the UK side.
It's much easier if we're just talking about an extension and/or cancellation (if necessary disguised as a very long extension) because you only have to worry about the leaders, the more difficult of whom are at least somewhat subject to peer pressure and the threat of having to stay up all night arguing about things.
I'm sure you're right about it being more difficult than just cancelling Brexit.
On the Eurozone, Denmark has an opt-out (and obviously so did we), so there is still a clear precedent. Also lots of other countries are supposed to join, but aren't in any rush - like Sweden, Poland, Czech Republic. Anyone looking to bounce the UK into the Euro would run up against plenty of opposition from other countries not keen to join.
It’s not a question of bouncing us into it but about whether to recreate the treaty opt-out. In practice it would still be up to the UK to decide when to join.
When Wales voted by 50.3% to 49.7% in favour of the Welsh Assembly, was it often described as being terribly divided? I don't think it was, or at least not for more than a few days after the result was announced.
But it wasn't really THAT important.
Yes it was. It established that Wales is an autonomous entity, and gave it the opportunity to run many of its own affairs, reversing significant aspects of the 1536 act of union imposed by Henry VIII. The loss of that vote would have been psychologically disastrous for the concept of Wales as a nation.
I was living in Cardiff at the time, and remember waking up at 0350 the following morning to find that NO was in the lead, only for the final votes from Carmarthen to come in a few minutes later to give YES the victory.
The irony is that the place that has done best out of the Welsh Assembly, Cardiff, actually voted No.
As a regular visitor to Cardiff over the years, I think it has very substantially improved the prosperity of parts of Cardiff. The rest of Wales, not so much.
I think that was more or less inevitable given Labour has dominated the Assembly and the south-east has dominated Labour.
When Wales voted by 50.3% to 49.7% in favour of the Welsh Assembly, was it often described as being terribly divided? I don't think it was, or at least not for more than a few days after the result was announced.
But it wasn't really THAT important.
Yes it was. It established that Wales is an autonomous entity, and gave it the opportunity to run many of its own affairs, reversing significant aspects of the 1536 act of union imposed by Henry VIII. The loss of that vote would have been psychologically disastrous for the concept of Wales as a nation.
I was living in Cardiff at the time, and remember waking up at 0350 the following morning to find that NO was in the lead, only for the final votes from Carmarthen to come in a few minutes later to give YES the victory.
The irony is that the place that has done best out of the Welsh Assembly, Cardiff, actually voted No.
As a regular visitor to Cardiff over the years, I think it has very substantially improved the prosperity of parts of Cardiff. The rest of Wales, not so much.
As formerly a regular visitor to Edinburgh I'd say the same about devolution and Scotland's capital.
When Wales voted by 50.3% to 49.7% in favour of the Welsh Assembly, was it often described as being terribly divided? I don't think it was, or at least not for more than a few days after the result was announced.
But it wasn't really THAT important.
Yes it was. It established that Wales is an autonomous entity, and gave it the opportunity to run many of its own affairs, reversing significant aspects of the 1536 act of union imposed by Henry VIII. The loss of that vote would have been psychologically disastrous for the concept of Wales as a nation.
I was living in Cardiff at the time, and remember waking up at 0350 the following morning to find that NO was in the lead, only for the final votes from Carmarthen to come in a few minutes later to give YES the victory.
The irony is that the place that has done best out of the Welsh Assembly, Cardiff, actually voted No.
As a regular visitor to Cardiff over the years, I think it has very substantially improved the prosperity of parts of Cardiff. The rest of Wales, not so much.
As formerly a regular visitor to Edinburgh I'd say the same about devolution and Scotland's capital.
Those with long memories might remember the utter compassion many openly showed for the victims of the Marchioness disaster: "a few less yuppies, what does it matter," or "they were drug-takers", etc.
Including, IIRC, comedians on TV. A very similar reaction in some corners to the initial reaction to the Hillsborough disaster, but which has been much more forgotten.
It's good to think we've progressed since those days.
When Wales voted by 50.3% to 49.7% in favour of the Welsh Assembly, was it often described as being terribly divided? I don't think it was, or at least not for more than a few days after the result was announced.
But it wasn't really THAT important.
Yes it was. It established that Wales is an autonomous entity, and gave it the opportunity to run many of its own affairs, reversing significant aspects of the 1536 act of union imposed by Henry VIII. The loss of that vote would have been psychologically disastrous for the concept of Wales as a nation.
I was living in Cardiff at the time, and remember waking up at 0350 the following morning to find that NO was in the lead, only for the final votes from Carmarthen to come in a few minutes later to give YES the victory.
The irony is that the place that has done best out of the Welsh Assembly, Cardiff, actually voted No.
As a regular visitor to Cardiff over the years, I think it has very substantially improved the prosperity of parts of Cardiff. The rest of Wales, not so much.
As formerly a regular visitor to Edinburgh I'd say the same about devolution and Scotland's capital.
Capital effect?
Almost certainly. In Edinburgh you could both see and feel it. Devolving decisions and creating new locations for power acts as a magnet for economic and political activity. It's a powerful argument for devolution more generally, and surely one reason why many of Britain's second tier cities are struggling relative to the capital in a way that is less common in France, Germany or Italy. Elected mayors were supposed to be a somewhat half-baked solution, but of course government found creating the office easier than genuinely letting go of centralised power.
When Wales voted by 50.3% to 49.7% in favour of the Welsh Assembly, was it often described as being terribly divided? I don't think it was, or at least not for more than a few days after the result was announced.
But it wasn't really THAT important.
Yes it was. It established that Wales is an autonomous entity, and gave it the opportunity to run many of its own affairs, reversing significant aspects of the 1536 act of union imposed by Henry VIII. The loss of that vote would have been psychologically disastrous for the concept of Wales as a nation.
I was living in Cardiff at the time, and remember waking up at 0350 the following morning to find that NO was in the lead, only for the final votes from Carmarthen to come in a few minutes later to give YES the victory.
The irony is that the place that has done best out of the Welsh Assembly, Cardiff, actually voted No.
As a regular visitor to Cardiff over the years, I think it has very substantially improved the prosperity of parts of Cardiff. The rest of Wales, not so much.
As formerly a regular visitor to Edinburgh I'd say the same about devolution and Scotland's capital.
Capital effect?
Almost certainly. In Edinburgh you could both see and feel it. Devolving decisions and creating new locations for power acts as a magnet for economic and political activity. It's a powerful argument for devolution more generally, and surely one reason why many of Britain's second tier cities are struggling relative to the capital in a way that is less common in France, Germany or Italy. Elected mayors were supposed to be a somewhat half-baked solution, but of course government found creating the office easier than genuinely letting go of centralised power.
I agree entirely. It is a powerful argument for way more devolution.
The point I was making that Cardiff still voted No (Edinburgh, along with all of Scotland, voted Yes).
If you like, it is a vivid example of an electorate that voted against its own economic interests -- they were saved by Caerfyrddin.
Just on the US elections, interesting poll out of Michigan for the US Senate where the Republican candidate is now only 3 points behind the Democrat. That might be considered rogue just given the other polls (and one had Stabenow up 9%) but two factors might make it interesting,
1. The Republican candidate, John James, is African-American while his opponent is white. This is just a hunch, mainly because my wife is African-American, but I think this may cause problems for the Democrats in getting the vote out in places like Detroit. My experience is that there is a strongly held view that African-Americans should stick together. I'm not saying that they will vote for James but they may be less willing to go out and vote for Stabenow. Both Obama and Eric Holder have campaigned in Michigan which may suggest the Democrats may be worried about the same thing.
2. James has form from the Republican primary of coming from seemingly way behind to surging at the end and coming through. This could be a re-run.
Yes something not quite right about the arrests over the Grenfell effigy.
Very upsetting but really a hate crime?
It's just ridiculous. Especially a few days after the police chief and met police chief say they want to go back to catching proper criminals.
In a free society people have the right to offend and push the boundaries. It's now becoming clear that the government are dismantling our free society.
Mr. Jessop, I'd never heard of the Marchioness disaster before now.
And that's part of the issue. Other disasters from the period - e.g.g Hillsborough, the Kings Cross fire - are much better known. The 51 victims of the Marchioness disaster are not treated with anywhere near the same respect. Perhaps because they were perceived (wrongly) as being the 'wrong' sort of victims ...
Mr. Jessop, I'd never heard of the Marchioness disaster before now.
And that's part of the issue. Other disasters from the period - e.g.g Hillsborough, the Kings Cross fire - are much better known. The 51 victims of the Marchioness disaster are not treated with anywhere near the same respect. Perhaps because they were perceived (wrongly) as being the 'wrong' sort of victims ...
Yes, even though I was 8 at the time I certainly followed the news, and didn't realise this had happened
When Wales voted by 50.3% to 49.7% in favour of the Welsh Assembly, was it often described as being terribly divided? I don't think it was, or at least not for more than a few days after the result was announced.
But it wasn't really THAT important.
Yes it was. It established that Wales is an autonomous entity, and gave it the opportunity to run many of its own affairs, reversing significant aspects of the 1536 act of union imposed by Henry VIII. The loss of that vote would have been psychologically disastrous for the concept of Wales as a nation.
I was living in Cardiff at the time, and remember waking up at 0350 the following morning to find that NO was in the lead, only for the final votes from Carmarthen to come in a few minutes later to give YES the victory.
The irony is that the place that has done best out of the Welsh Assembly, Cardiff, actually voted No.
As a regular visitor to Cardiff over the years, I think it has very substantially improved the prosperity of parts of Cardiff. The rest of Wales, not so much.
As formerly a regular visitor to Edinburgh I'd say the same about devolution and Scotland's capital.
Capital effect?
Almost certainly. In Edinburgh you could both see and feel it. Devolving decisions and creating new locations for power acts as a magnet for economic and political activity. It's a powerful argument for devolution more generally, and surely one reason why many of Britain's second tier cities are struggling relative to the capital in a way that is less common in France, Germany or Italy. Elected mayors were supposed to be a somewhat half-baked solution, but of course government found creating the office easier than genuinely letting go of centralised power.
I agree entirely. It is a powerful argument for way more devolution.
The point I was making that Cardiff still voted No (Edinburgh, along with all of Scotland, voted Yes).
If you like, it is a vivid example of an electorate that voted against its own economic interests -- they were saved by Caerfyrddin.
In Scotland it is still too early to talk about the outcome of devolution but for west of Scotland the results are so far not great. Reading the ft at weekend on entrepreneurship shows that we lag the UK in new starts, productivity and building growth companies. Interesting that northern Ireland is doing better as is Manchester. There appears a genuine northern power house story.
Mr. Jessop, I'd never heard of the Marchioness disaster before now.
And that's part of the issue. Other disasters from the period - e.g.g Hillsborough, the Kings Cross fire - are much better known. The 51 victims of the Marchioness disaster are not treated with anywhere near the same respect. Perhaps because they were perceived (wrongly) as being the 'wrong' sort of victims ...
Yes, even though I was 8 at the time I certainly followed the news, and didn't realise this had happened
I remember a lot of emphasis at the time being placed on the Marchioness victims being high on drugs and their "debauched" lifestyle. Disgraceful really.
Yes something not quite right about the arrests over the Grenfell effigy.
Very upsetting but really a hate crime?
It's just ridiculous. Especially a few days after the police chief and met police chief say they want to go back to catching proper criminals.
In a free society people have the right to offend and push the boundaries. It's now becoming clear that the government are dismantling our free society.
If it is a hate crime then there must be a target of hate, or victim, and I'm not sure there is a readily identifiable, homogenous one of those.
O/t. I see the people responsible for the awful 'Grenfell Tower' video have ‘surrendered' to the police. Takes a bit of courage, and belated self-awareness, to all surrender in these circumstances, to be fair.
Hmm, not really sure the police should be involved with this, a fuckhead speech act is still a speech act.
Worrying that "being a twat" seems to have quietly become a crime.
How many of us haven't done something in our past that makes us cringe now? Students everywhere should be very afraid....
Just on the US elections, interesting poll out of Michigan for the US Senate where the Republican candidate is now only 3 points behind the Democrat. That might be considered rogue just given the other polls (and one had Stabenow up 9%) but two factors might make it interesting,
1. The Republican candidate, John James, is African-American while his opponent is white. This is just a hunch, mainly because my wife is African-American, but I think this may cause problems for the Democrats in getting the vote out in places like Detroit. My experience is that there is a strongly held view that African-Americans should stick together. I'm not saying that they will vote for James but they may be less willing to go out and vote for Stabenow. Both Obama and Eric Holder have campaigned in Michigan which may suggest the Democrats may be worried about the same thing.
2. James has form from the Republican primary of coming from seemingly way behind to surging at the end and coming through. This could be a re-run.
And what about closet racist whites who may not vote for James outside of Detroit in the suburbs and rural areas?
Yes something not quite right about the arrests over the Grenfell effigy.
Very upsetting but really a hate crime?
It's just ridiculous. Especially a few days after the police chief and met police chief say they want to go back to catching proper criminals.
In a free society people have the right to offend and push the boundaries. It's now becoming clear that the government are dismantling our free society.
If it is a hate crime then there must be a target of hate, or victim, and I'm not sure there is a readily identifiable, homogenous one of those.
"Worrying that "being a twat" seems to have quietly become a crime."
Being a Christian, I can accept that everyone is a sinner. But when the police decide everyone is a twat, a subjective judgement, and make it a crime, I start to worry.
I plead guilty and ask for three million other offences to be taken into account.
When Wales voted by 50.3% to 49.7% in favour of the Welsh Assembly, was it often described as being terribly divided? I don't think it was, or at least not for more than a few days after the result was announced.
But it wasn't really THAT important.
Yes it was. It established that Wales is an autonomous entity, and gave it the opportunity to run many of its own affairs, reversing significant aspects of the 1536 act of union imposed by Henry VIII. The loss of that vote would have been psychologically disastrous for the concept of Wales as a nation.
I was living in Cardiff at the time, and remember waking up at 0350 the following morning to find that NO was in the lead, only for the final votes from Carmarthen to come in a few minutes later to give YES the victory.
The fact that Plaid polls consistently worse than the SNP and Sinn Fein and even trails the Tories in Wales on current Welsh Assembly polling for 2021 and the fact Wales voted Leave like England but unlike Scotland and Northern Ireland which voted Remain shows claims for Welsh nationhood are far less pronounced than in Scotland or Ireland
I’d forgotten about the Denmark Place fire, although when I looked it up I do have a vague memory of it. My excuse is that in August 1980 quite a lot would have been happening to me on a day to day basis.
I suspect that it didn’t hit the public consciousness in the same way is, as others have said, because the victims were seen as ‘less deserving.’ Still people, of course. With families and friends.
When Wales voted by 50.3% to 49.7% in favour of the Welsh Assembly, was it often described as being terribly divided? I don't think it was, or at least not for more than a few days after the result was announced.
But it wasn't really THAT important.
Yes it was. It established that Wales is an autonomous entity, and gave it the opportunity to run many of its own affairs, reversing significant aspects of the 1536 act of union imposed by Henry VIII. The loss of that vote would have been psychologically disastrous for the concept of Wales as a nation.
I was living in Cardiff at the time, and remember waking up at 0350 the following morning to find that NO was in the lead, only for the final votes from Carmarthen to come in a few minutes later to give YES the victory.
The fact that Plaid polls consistently worse than the SNP and Sinn Fein and even trails the Tories in Wales on current Welsh Assembly polling for 2021 and the fact Wales voted Leave like England but unlike Scotland and Northern Ireland which voted Remain shows claims for Welsh nationhood are far less pronounced than in Scotland or Ireland
Thanks for your opinion, as a resident of Essex.
My opinion is that Wales has suffered the same fate as New Caledonia (where the French settlers ensured the independence referendum a few days ago was lost).
Flooding a territory with people from the ruling country to ensure it doesn't go independent. Good job it could never happen here.
Yes something not quite right about the arrests over the Grenfell effigy.
Very upsetting but really a hate crime?
It's just ridiculous. Especially a few days after the police chief and met police chief say they want to go back to catching proper criminals.
In a free society people have the right to offend and push the boundaries. It's now becoming clear that the government are dismantling our free society.
If it is a hate crime then there must be a target of hate, or victim, and I'm not sure there is a readily identifiable, homogenous one of those.
Tower block dwellers?
I'm impressed by Javid's blatant attempt to completely dilute what constitutes a hate crime.
Mr. Jessop, I'd never heard of the Marchioness disaster before now.
And that's part of the issue. Other disasters from the period - e.g.g Hillsborough, the Kings Cross fire - are much better known. The 51 victims of the Marchioness disaster are not treated with anywhere near the same respect. Perhaps because they were perceived (wrongly) as being the 'wrong' sort of victims ...
Sort of, I think it is more the situation rather than the people but the two are intertwinned. Herald of Free Enterprise and Kings Cross both happened in entirely mundane place, places anyone could imagine themselves being. Hillsborough happened live on TV, smashing it into the public consciousness. Alpha Piper had incredible visuals and happened, fundamentally, at a place of work. The Marchioness lacked all those things: a location/circumstances that didn't resonate with the country at large and no 'TV friendly' visuals.
Mr. Jessop, I'd never heard of the Marchioness disaster before now.
And that's part of the issue. Other disasters from the period - e.g.g Hillsborough, the Kings Cross fire - are much better known. The 51 victims of the Marchioness disaster are not treated with anywhere near the same respect. Perhaps because they were perceived (wrongly) as being the 'wrong' sort of victims ...
That's fair comment, I was 18 at the time and whilst I recall the event, it certainly wasn't a nationally felt tragedy like Hillborough or Dunblane.
Wrong type of victim, boozed up posho merchant bankers; not very relatable to the bulk of the country. Very few looked at it and thought, there but for the grace of god go I.......
Entirely wrong response of course, these people deserved better.
Mr. Jessop, I'd never heard of the Marchioness disaster before now.
And that's part of the issue. Other disasters from the period - e.g.g Hillsborough, the Kings Cross fire - are much better known. The 51 victims of the Marchioness disaster are not treated with anywhere near the same respect. Perhaps because they were perceived (wrongly) as being the 'wrong' sort of victims ...
Sort of, I think it is more the situation rather than the people but the two are intertwinned. Herald of Free Enterprise and Kings Cross both happened in entirely mundane place, places anyone could imagine themselves being. Hillsborough happened live on TV, smashing it into the public consciousness. Alpha Piper had incredible visuals and happened, fundamentally, at a place of work. The Marchioness lacked all those things: a location/circumstances that didn't resonate with the country at large and no 'TV friendly' visuals.
On the contrary, afaicr there were plenty of visuals and images of detritus from the sunken boat and later of its recovery.
Again O/t England 113-5. Good morning for Sri Lanka, although, of course, we haven’t bowled yet.
The fact Keaton Jennings was the highest scorer doesn't exactly suggest the bowling was terribly incisive.
Cricinfo suggests that while the bowling wasn’t that good, England’s aggression created opportunities for the bowlers.
Thought you’d be back at work?
I am. But even my school doesn't demand we go in at 7 in the morning. 7.30 does them fine.
I know. Several teachers and ex-teachers in my family and the idea of 8.30-4.30 is a gross misunderstanding.
Hmm. I'm sure the local schoolchildren are starting earlier and earlier. Some of them seem to be getting in for 7 or 7.30. Whether that's for lessons or to travel to away matches, it has never seemed appropriate to ask. It's a bloody nuisance when you can't get the bus to the station because it is full of children going to school from 7 to 9.
O/t. I see the people responsible for the awful 'Grenfell Tower' video have ‘surrendered' to the police. Takes a bit of courage, and belated self-awareness, to all surrender in these circumstances, to be fair.
Hmm, not really sure the police should be involved with this, a fuckhead speech act is still a speech act.
Agreed. Being stupid and offensive leads to its own punishment, it rarely requires criminal punishment.
When Wales voted by 50.3% to 49.7% in favour of the Welsh Assembly, was it often described as being terribly divided? I don't think it was, or at least not for more than a few days after the result was announced.
But it wasn't really THAT important.
Yes it was. It established that Wales is an autonomous entity, and gave it the opportunity to run many of its own affairs, reversing significant aspects of the 1536 act of union imposed by Henry VIII. The loss of that vote would have been psychologically disastrous for the concept of Wales as a nation.
I was living in Cardiff at the time, and remember waking up at 0350 the following morning to find that NO was in the lead, only for the final votes from Carmarthen to come in a few minutes later to give YES the victory.
The fact that Plaid polls consistently worse than the SNP and Sinn Fein and even trails the Tories in Wales on current Welsh Assembly polling for 2021 and the fact Wales voted Leave like England but unlike Scotland and Northern Ireland which voted Remain shows claims for Welsh nationhood are far less pronounced than in Scotland or Ireland
Alex Salmond back in the 1980s might have put his finger on it when suggesting that Scottish independence was an economic movement whereas Welsh was cultural.
The Grenfell thing - not sure what I think. However, I suspect the issue here is not that they actually did it, but that it was videoed and then widely distributed. If it was just a joke among friends, why video it and post it?
I guess my view is that this is not a matter for the police, but that once you decide to air your views in public the public has every right to know who you are.
Mr. JohnL, not my area, but aren't there more pre-school breakfast club type thingummyjigs nowadays?
And in my area at least, places on them are like hens' teeth: demand outstrips supply.
There's actually quite a bit of money to be made from picking up peoples' children (with permission from parents and school, of course), and looking after them and feeding them until early evening.
I am genuinely surprised that people have not heard of the Marchioness disaster. My memory of it is very clear indeed and I remember it getting huge amounts of coverage - not least because Lawrence Dallaglio's sister was on board.
Mr. Jessop, I'd never heard of the Marchioness disaster before now.
And that's part of the issue. Other disasters from the period - e.g.g Hillsborough, the Kings Cross fire - are much better known. The 51 victims of the Marchioness disaster are not treated with anywhere near the same respect. Perhaps because they were perceived (wrongly) as being the 'wrong' sort of victims ...
Yes, even though I was 8 at the time I certainly followed the news, and didn't realise this had happened
I remember a lot of emphasis at the time being placed on the Marchioness victims being high on drugs and their "debauched" lifestyle. Disgraceful really.
Same reaction with the Denmark Place fire
I was on the cusp of awareness of the news in 1980, but I have no memory of Denmark Place ever being mentioned.
Being charitable, the sheer volume of very large disasters in the late 1980s - Lockerbie, Marchioness, Piper Alpha, Bradford City, Hillsborough, Kings Cross, M1 air crash, Manchester Airport fire, Zeebrugge, Clapham Junction, all in around a 5 year period - may have overwhelmed the memory of earlier disasters. I know we live in a safer world now, but that clustering of events was deeply and terribly on the statistical edge even then.
I had certainly never heard of Summerland until a colleague who had been on IoM at the time mentioned it after Grenfell, and the victims there were certainly not the wrong type of victim for remembering.
The Grenfell thing - not sure what I think. However, I suspect the issue here is not that they actually did it, but that it was videoed and then widely distributed. If it was just a joke among friends, why video it and post it?
I guess my view is that this is not a matter for the police, but that once you decide to air your views in public the public has every right to know who you are.
^This. They deserve widespread public opprobrium and to have people shun them in the pub for a week or two. Probably not a conviction.
My guess is they'll get a caution (recorded or otherwise). I suggest "arrested on suspicion of a public order offence" is cop-speak for "remember what Sara Thornton was saying the other day about shit we haven't got time for?"
Mr. JohnL, not my area, but aren't there more pre-school breakfast club type thingummyjigs nowadays?
I'm not sure, tbh. There are an awful lot of unofficial schools in what used to be shops but that is unconnected.
I've just checked a local school's website. The first lesson is at 8.30 which is a good hour earlier than in my day (jumpers for goalposts...). Chucking out time is 3.
Yes something not quite right about the arrests over the Grenfell effigy.
Very upsetting but really a hate crime?
It's just ridiculous. Especially a few days after the police chief and met police chief say they want to go back to catching proper criminals.
In a free society people have the right to offend and push the boundaries. It's now becoming clear that the government are dismantling our free society.
If it is a hate crime then there must be a target of hate, or victim, and I'm not sure there is a readily identifiable, homogenous one of those.
Of course. The problem is how to approach it from "white privelege". The authorities are effectively endorsing the view of slum-dwelling, BAME victim figures.
One of the most powerful themes to come out of Andrew O'Hagan's piece was that the residents didn't (want to) see themselves as poor or helpless.
O/t. I see the people responsible for the awful 'Grenfell Tower' video have ‘surrendered' to the police. Takes a bit of courage, and belated self-awareness, to all surrender in these circumstances, to be fair.
Hmm, not really sure the police should be involved with this, a fuckhead speech act is still a speech act.
Worrying that "being a twat" seems to have quietly become a crime.
How many of us haven't done something in our past that makes us cringe now? Students everywhere should be very afraid....
I agree. The courts would clog up. They'd have to prosecute 17,000,000 people
Again O/t England 113-5. Good morning for Sri Lanka, although, of course, we haven’t bowled yet.
The fact Keaton Jennings was the highest scorer doesn't exactly suggest the bowling was terribly incisive.
Cricinfo suggests that while the bowling wasn’t that good, England’s aggression created opportunities for the bowlers.
Thought you’d be back at work?
I am. But even my school doesn't demand we go in at 7 in the morning. 7.30 does them fine.
I know. Several teachers and ex-teachers in my family and the idea of 8.30-4.30 is a gross misunderstanding.
Hmm. I'm sure the local schoolchildren are starting earlier and earlier. Some of them seem to be getting in for 7 or 7.30. Whether that's for lessons or to travel to away matches, it has never seemed appropriate to ask. It's a bloody nuisance when you can't get the bus to the station because it is full of children going to school from 7 to 9.
I suspect these are ones whose parents have chosen a school which is optimal for exam results, less so for transport*. Most schools certainly want them in by 8.40 nowadays.. so if you have a couple of 20 minute bus journeys with a wait in between, it easily racks up.
Comments
I also note this from earlier today
https://order-order.com/2018/11/05/uk-second-best-world-fdi/
Shocked I tell you
Are enough leavers convinced this is brexity enough to accept it, and are enough remainers fearful enough of no deal to accept it?
https://www.theguardian.com/membership/2017/dec/03/how-scotland-reduced-knife-deaths-among-young-people
Though the undercurrents of race and drug dealing do make it more problematic.
https://www.ecosophia.net/the-kek-wars-part-one-aristocracy-and-its-discontents/
In other words the areas which voted Leave to kick the establishment feel they've already achieved what they wanted to achieve and wouldn't necessarily vote Leave again in the same numbers, whereas the areas which voted Leave on policy issues are more likely to stick with their previous decision.
Good night all.
It may also simply that they were anti-immigrant rather than anti manufacturing exports.
Me: "That's good, isn't it? We need integration, if they want to honour deceased British soldiers, that's great."
Him: "Hmm, yes, I suppose you're right. I hadn't thought of it that way."
Me: "Lots of Muslims have fought in the British Army, after all."
Him (scratching head): "Yes, that's true, I suppose."
I'm not making fun of him. He's a nice guy, and genuinely wrestling with his instinct, which is to feel that people who "look like Muslims" are probably a bit dodgy, so even positive evidence to the contrary is hard to swallow.
Getting back in after actually leaving would be a different story, though.
Other Leavers admitted-sheepishly-that their motivation was preventing FOM but it soon became obvious that they weren't talking about EU immigration. It was the unmentionables on Farage's poster which he didn't want talked about.
The Leavers hadn't thought it through. When the farmer came on and said they couldn't get seasonal workers to do their fruit picking and packaging and their produce was rotting in the fields meaning they had to move to a three day week you could feel a frisson. These weren't the benefit cheats of the Daily Mail's imagination.
The two MPs didn't know what to say when the poll was announced. They were fighting every politicians instinct to follow the voters. Defending a position where we'd be worse off AND seeing the public swing against them in ever increasing numbers left them squirming
However, it only takes one of the 27 to say no, and we will be stuffed. The Irish consider that they have spent too much blood to back down, while we in GB think the Troubles ended 20 years ago and can be forgotten. It is still too raw and deep in the Irish, North and South psyche
It took Estonia 9 years from applying for membership to getting in. Having already been a member (and being a net contributor), we should be quicker. Perhaps 5 years?
It's much easier if we're just talking about an extension and/or cancellation (if necessary disguised as a very long extension) because you only have to worry about the leaders, the more difficult of whom are at least somewhat subject to peer pressure and the threat of having to stay up all night arguing about things.
On the Eurozone, Denmark has an opt-out (and obviously so did we), so there is still a clear precedent. Also lots of other countries are supposed to join, but aren't in any rush - like Sweden, Poland, Czech Republic. Anyone looking to bounce the UK into the Euro would run up against plenty of opposition from other countries not keen to join.
Takes a bit of courage, and belated self-awareness, to all surrender in these circumstances, to be fair.
Problem is if our media can't be outraged it is nothing.
I agree with all those who say it was a sick thing to have done. I'm interested to see what happens next, and quite why it is categorised as a 'public order offence'.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-22183064/mining-village-burns-margaret-thatcher-effigy
50.20 per cent, can't be arsed.
25.04 per cent, Yes
24.76 per cent, No.
It wasn't close or terribly divided.
I was living in Cardiff at the time, and remember waking up at 0350 the following morning to find that NO was in the lead, only for the final votes from Carmarthen to come in a few minutes later to give YES the victory.
Thought you’d be back at work?
Very upsetting but really a hate crime?
As a regular visitor to Cardiff over the years, I think it has very substantially improved the prosperity of parts of Cardiff. The rest of Wales, not so much.
Including, IIRC, comedians on TV. A very similar reaction in some corners to the initial reaction to the Hillsborough disaster, but which has been much more forgotten.
It's good to think we've progressed since those days.
The point I was making that Cardiff still voted No (Edinburgh, along with all of Scotland, voted Yes).
If you like, it is a vivid example of an electorate that voted against its own economic interests -- they were saved by Caerfyrddin.
Mr. Jessop, I agree. It was extremely poor taste, but ultimately just a sick joke.
Strip away hurt feelings and what did they do? They burnt some cardboard and made a shit joke.
We regularly have effigies burnt of Popes, and British and American political figures. Are those offences?
1. The Republican candidate, John James, is African-American while his opponent is white. This is just a hunch, mainly because my wife is African-American, but I think this may cause problems for the Democrats in getting the vote out in places like Detroit. My experience is that there is a strongly held view that African-Americans should stick together. I'm not saying that they will vote for James but they may be less willing to go out and vote for Stabenow. Both Obama and Eric Holder have campaigned in Michigan which may suggest the Democrats may be worried about the same thing.
2. James has form from the Republican primary of coming from seemingly way behind to surging at the end and coming through. This could be a re-run.
In a free society people have the right to offend and push the boundaries. It's now becoming clear that the government are dismantling our free society.
Same reaction with the Denmark Place fire
Tower block dwellers?
Edited extra bit: any word on Texas?
On Texas, I haven't heard much new but the Politico article yesterday was pretty damning about Beto's inability to widen his coalition.
How many of us haven't done something in our past that makes us cringe now? Students everywhere should be very afraid....
"Worrying that "being a twat" seems to have quietly become a crime."
Being a Christian, I can accept that everyone is a sinner. But when the police decide everyone is a twat, a subjective judgement, and make it a crime, I start to worry.
I plead guilty and ask for three million other offences to be taken into account.
Nate Silver seems pretty nervous - I don’t think he believes his own models prediction that the Dems have an 88% chance of winning the House.
I suspect that it didn’t hit the public consciousness in the same way is, as others have said, because the victims were seen as ‘less deserving.’
Still people, of course. With families and friends.
My opinion is that Wales has suffered the same fate as New Caledonia (where the French settlers ensured the independence referendum a few days ago was lost).
Flooding a territory with people from the ruling country to ensure it doesn't go independent. Good job it could never happen here.
Wrong type of victim, boozed up posho merchant bankers; not very relatable to the bulk of the country. Very few looked at it and thought, there but for the grace of god go I.......
Entirely wrong response of course, these people deserved better.
I guess my view is that this is not a matter for the police, but that once you decide to air your views in public the public has every right to know who you are.
There's actually quite a bit of money to be made from picking up peoples' children (with permission from parents and school, of course), and looking after them and feeding them until early evening.
Being charitable, the sheer volume of very large disasters in the late 1980s - Lockerbie, Marchioness, Piper Alpha, Bradford City, Hillsborough, Kings Cross, M1 air crash, Manchester Airport fire, Zeebrugge, Clapham Junction, all in around a 5 year period - may have overwhelmed the memory of earlier disasters. I know we live in a safer world now, but that clustering of events was deeply and terribly on the statistical edge even then.
I had certainly never heard of Summerland until a colleague who had been on IoM at the time mentioned it after Grenfell, and the victims there were certainly not the wrong type of victim for remembering.
But the same can be said of Hillsborough. Or the reign of Commodus.
My guess is they'll get a caution (recorded or otherwise). I suggest "arrested on suspicion of a public order offence" is cop-speak for "remember what Sara Thornton was saying the other day about shit we haven't got time for?"
I've just checked a local school's website. The first lesson is at 8.30 which is a good hour earlier than in my day (jumpers for goalposts...). Chucking out time is 3.
One of the most powerful themes to come out of Andrew O'Hagan's piece was that the residents didn't (want to) see themselves as poor or helpless.
(*Or ended up with one they didn't choose)