Seriously though, that was the elephant in the room, (far outweighing anything written on the side of single decker public transport). It was not a vote for the status quo, it was a vote for the Verhofstadts, Selmayrs, and Junckers of this world to claim a Remain vote as an endorsement for years and years of ever closer union and to press on regardless.
Just like Macron and Merkel now endorsing EU armed forces that were not supposedly on the agenda.
The UK will be participating whether the country is in the EU or not. It's that or put taxes up to increase defence spending.
The head of planning at the EUMS is a British Army 1* who is staying in position after the Glorious 29th. That should tell you which way the wind is blowing on this issue.
The Dutch army has three brigades. Two of them are now completely and permanently integrated into a German Division. Arrangements like that are the future of European defence and we'd all better start getting used to it.
They're getting there. If they won't back the deal and claim not to want no deal they have to.
One key step first - Corbyn has to move a General Election in the Commons. The party vote at conference was all about trying to secure a general election rather than a referendum. That requires a demonstration that a General Election isn't possible, before Labour can make that step. Vince Cable tweeted something along those lines yesterday afternoon after meeting Corbyn, although I wish he'd been stronger that the Lib Dems won't support a GE (as it wouldn't solve anything right now and indeed would be a disaster in terms of running down the A50 clock whatever the result.)
However if Corbyn moves and fails to get a General Election - then Labour have the cover to move.
I do feel some sympathy for JRM. He was promised support, went over the top, then found he'd been lied to by colleagues. At least he had the decency to have the courage of his convictions.
One of the few honourable MPs throughout this pathetic capitulation.
Why should JRM get a free pass out of moron school? Other Tory MPs took soundings, and concluded that a) there is no public mood for it, and b) if the challenge went ahead the outcome would an overwhelming mandate for the PM. Most PB'ers quickly came to the same conclusions, as did most of the media.
So JRM is either so arrogant or so lazy as to not have bothered, or so arrogant as to have disregarded what others are telling him. Or, I suppose, his is the part of Somerset where all the idiots live.
Seriously though, that was the elephant in the room, (far outweighing anything written on the side of single decker public transport). It was not a vote for the status quo, it was a vote for the Verhofstadts, Selmayrs, and Junckers of this world to claim a Remain vote as an endorsement for years and years of ever closer union and to press on regardless.
Just like Macron and Merkel now endorsing EU armed forces that were not supposedly on the agenda.
The UK will be participating whether the country is in the EU or not. It's that or put taxes up to increase defence spending.
The head of planning at the EUMS is a British Army 1* who is staying in position after the Glorious 29th. That should tell you which way the wind is blowing on this issue.
The Dutch army has three brigades. Two of them are now completely and permanently integrated into a German Division. Arrangements like that are the future of European defence and we'd all better start getting used to it.
No. We only need to be "getting used to it", if we lack the political will to disagree with it.
I do feel some sympathy for JRM. He was promised support, went over the top, then found he'd been lied to by colleagues. At least he had the decency to have the courage of his convictions.
One of the few honourable MPs throughout this pathetic capitulation.
Why should JRM get a free pass out of moron school? Other Tory MPs took soundings, and concluded that a) there is no public mood for it, and b) if the challenge went ahead the outcome would an overwhelming mandate for the PM. Most PB'ers quickly came to the same conclusions, as did most of the media.
So JRM is either so arrogant or so lazy as to not have bothered, or so arrogant as to have disregarded what others are telling him. Or, I suppose, his is the part of Somerset where all the idiots live.
Exactly. Opponents to the deal should be the most livid about JRM hurting their cause.
Seriously though, that was the elephant in the room, (far outweighing anything written on the side of single decker public transport). It was not a vote for the status quo, it was a vote for the Verhofstadts, Selmayrs, and Junckers of this world to claim a Remain vote as an endorsement for years and years of ever closer union and to press on regardless.
Just like Macron and Merkel now endorsing EU armed forces that were not supposedly on the agenda.
The UK will be participating whether the country is in the EU or not. It's that or put taxes up to increase defence spending.
The head of planning at the EUMS is a British Army 1* who is staying in position after the Glorious 29th. That should tell you which way the wind is blowing on this issue.
The Dutch army has three brigades. Two of them are now completely and permanently integrated into a German Division. Arrangements like that are the future of European defence and we'd all better start getting used to it.
Indeed. The plethora and complexity of different military arrangements and equipment throughout the EU makes a harmonisation and co-ordination an attractive prospect. And for any action of significance no EU country is ever going to be using its military alone.
Seriously though, that was the elephant in the room, (far outweighing anything written on the side of single decker public transport). It was not a vote for the status quo, it was a vote for the Verhofstadts, Selmayrs, and Junckers of this world to claim a Remain vote as an endorsement for years and years of ever closer union and to press on regardless.
Just like Macron and Merkel now endorsing EU armed forces that were not supposedly on the agenda.
The UK will be participating whether the country is in the EU or not. It's that or put taxes up to increase defence spending.
The head of planning at the EUMS is a British Army 1* who is staying in position after the Glorious 29th. That should tell you which way the wind is blowing on this issue.
The Dutch army has three brigades. Two of them are now completely and permanently integrated into a German Division. Arrangements like that are the future of European defence and we'd all better start getting used to it.
LOL
why so we can bringback body bags to council estates across the country because some failing french president thinks a foreign adventure might boost his ratings
Seriously though, that was the elephant in the room, (far outweighing anything written on the side of single decker public transport). It was not a vote for the status quo, it was a vote for the Verhofstadts, Selmayrs, and Junckers of this world to claim a Remain vote as an endorsement for years and years of ever closer union and to press on regardless.
Just like Macron and Merkel now endorsing EU armed forces that were not supposedly on the agenda.
The UK will be participating whether the country is in the EU or not. It's that or put taxes up to increase defence spending.
The head of planning at the EUMS is a British Army 1* who is staying in position after the Glorious 29th. That should tell you which way the wind is blowing on this issue.
The Dutch army has three brigades. Two of them are now completely and permanently integrated into a German Division. Arrangements like that are the future of European defence and we'd all better start getting used to it.
No. We only need to be "getting used to it", if we lack the political will to disagree with it.
A Labour government might. Tories are too fond of cutting defence spending to be able to resist the siren call of the cost savings that will come with integration.
Brace yourselves, we're going to be deluged by Southerners complaining about the snow.
The first snow of the winter fell overnight in parts of the UK.
Brighton, Dorset and Kent were among the areas to have received a dusting of the white stuff after a cold blast arrived from the continent, which was forecast to bring an end to the mild November Britons had been experiencing.
Snow has also fallen in northern England, including North Yorkshire where it was particularly heavy, as well as on Exmoor in the South West, the Midlands and Wales.
Seriously though, that was the elephant in the room, (far outweighing anything written on the side of single decker public transport). It was not a vote for the status quo, it was a vote for the Verhofstadts, Selmayrs, and Junckers of this world to claim a Remain vote as an endorsement for years and years of ever closer union and to press on regardless.
Just like Macron and Merkel now endorsing EU armed forces that were not supposedly on the agenda.
The UK will be participating whether the country is in the EU or not. It's that or put taxes up to increase defence spending.
The head of planning at the EUMS is a British Army 1* who is staying in position after the Glorious 29th. That should tell you which way the wind is blowing on this issue.
The Dutch army has three brigades. Two of them are now completely and permanently integrated into a German Division. Arrangements like that are the future of European defence and we'd all better start getting used to it.
LOL
why so we can bringback body bags to council estates across the country because some failing french president thinks a foreign adventure might boost his ratings
Mr. Eagles, reminds me a bit of when south Wales recently had a foot of snow and London had about half an inch. The half-inch got the media's attention.
Brace yourselves, we're going to be deluged by Southerners complaining about the snow.
The first snow of the winter fell overnight in parts of the UK.
Brighton, Dorset and Kent were among the areas to have received a dusting of the white stuff after a cold blast arrived from the continent, which was forecast to bring an end to the mild November Britons had been experiencing.
Snow has also fallen in northern England, including North Yorkshire where it was particularly heavy, as well as on Exmoor in the South West, the Midlands and Wales.
I'm trying to read the tea leaves on Number 10's apparent pivot from "It's my deal or no deal" to "It's my deal or no Brexit". As far as I can tell, it's a bad sign for the prospect of the deal getting through parliament, because it means they've given up on trying to persuade Remain/soft Brexit leaning no-voters, and are instead trying to persuade no deal/hard Brexit leaning no-voters, who are both less numerous and probably more hardened in their opposition. Or is there another interpretation?
Although the PM just confirmed to McVey that we will leave on March 29 come what may. A statement of the default, or a mixed message?
Seriously though, that was the elephant in the room, (far outweighing anything written on the side of single decker public transport). It was not a vote for the status quo, it was a vote for the Verhofstadts, Selmayrs, and Junckers of this world to claim a Remain vote as an endorsement for years and years of ever closer union and to press on regardless.
Just like Macron and Merkel now endorsing EU armed forces that were not supposedly on the agenda.
The UK will be participating whether the country is in the EU or not. It's that or put taxes up to increase defence spending.
The head of planning at the EUMS is a British Army 1* who is staying in position after the Glorious 29th. That should tell you which way the wind is blowing on this issue.
The Dutch army has three brigades. Two of them are now completely and permanently integrated into a German Division. Arrangements like that are the future of European defence and we'd all better start getting used to it.
LOL
why so we can bringback body bags to council estates across the country because some failing french president thinks a foreign adventure might boost his ratings
no thanks
So you'll be advocating us leaving NATO then?
Nato is a defensive organisation, try looking at how the french are talking about an EU army.
This is the basic problem with remain types, you look at what you what would like the EU to be and not at what the core members are saying it will be.
I'm trying to read the tea leaves on Number 10's apparent pivot from "It's my deal or no deal" to "It's my deal or no Brexit". As far as I can tell, it's a bad sign for the prospect of the deal getting through parliament, because it means they've given up on trying to persuade Remain/soft Brexit leaning no-voters, and are instead trying to persuade no deal/hard Brexit leaning no-voters, who are both less numerous and probably more hardened in their opposition. Or is there another interpretation?
Although the PM just confirmed to McVey that we will leave on March 29 come what may. A statement of the default, or a mixed message?
Yeah, it could be this is just wild thrashing and I'm reading too much into it.
So I see Spain doesn't want a deal. I do enjoy how they pretend their demands on Gibraltar are reasonable when they have a weaker claim than Argentina do with the Falklands.
I'm trying to read the tea leaves on Number 10's apparent pivot from "It's my deal or no deal" to "It's my deal or no Brexit". As far as I can tell, it's a bad sign for the prospect of the deal getting through parliament, because it means they've given up on trying to persuade Remain/soft Brexit leaning no-voters, and are instead trying to persuade no deal/hard Brexit leaning no-voters, who are both less numerous and probably more hardened in their opposition. Or is there another interpretation?
Although the PM just confirmed to McVey that we will leave on March 29 come what may. A statement of the default, or a mixed message?
We'll Leave on March 29th and rejoin on March 30th.
Seriously though, that was the elephant in the room, (far outweighing anything written on the side of single decker public transport). It was not a vote for the status quo, it was a vote for the Verhofstadts, Selmayrs, and Junckers of this world to claim a Remain vote as an endorsement for years and years of ever closer union and to press on regardless.
Just like Macron and Merkel now endorsing EU armed forces that were not supposedly on the agenda.
The UK will be participating whether the country is in the EU or not. It's that or put taxes up to increase defence spending.
The head of planning at the EUMS is a British Army 1* who is staying in position after the Glorious 29th. That should tell you which way the wind is blowing on this issue.
The Dutch army has three brigades. Two of them are now completely and permanently integrated into a German Division. Arrangements like that are the future of European defence and we'd all better start getting used to it.
LOL
why so we can bringback body bags to council estates across the country because some failing french president thinks a foreign adventure might boost his ratings
no thanks
The Germans aren't keen on providing bodies for Macronism
Fascinating that it's No Deal that's being nuked first by the Government. If the deal is to pass ( after everyone let's off steam on the first vote ) then they need some MPs to move to their second preference. And today's interventions from Rudd, Truss and May all suggest it's No Dealers who are being targeted first to move to their second preference. That's fascinating.
Seriously though, that was the elephant in the room, (far outweighing anything written on the side of single decker public transport). It was not a vote for the status quo, it was a vote for the Verhofstadts, Selmayrs, and Junckers of this world to claim a Remain vote as an endorsement for years and years of ever closer union and to press on regardless.
Just like Macron and Merkel now endorsing EU armed forces that were not supposedly on the agenda.
The UK will be participating whether the country is in the EU or not. It's that or put taxes up to increase defence spending.
The head of planning at the EUMS is a British Army 1* who is staying in position after the Glorious 29th. That should tell you which way the wind is blowing on this issue.
The Dutch army has three brigades. Two of them are now completely and permanently integrated into a German Division. Arrangements like that are the future of European defence and we'd all better start getting used to it.
LOL
why so we can bringback body bags to council estates across the country because some failing french president thinks a foreign adventure might boost his ratings
no thanks
So you'll be advocating us leaving NATO then?
Sorry, Macron's lost the plot on this. He's got delusions of challenging the USA and China, and using other European countries' military resources combined (sans doute under a French CoC?) to do it. Napoleonic tendencies written all over it.
Merkel's demob happy (pun intended) and happy to say out loud what she thinks on this now.
Yet all this was never happening pre referendum. Amazing. Whodathunk it?
Not so. People who voted for Remain were voting for Cameron's deal. That's what would have happened if Remain won. People who voted for Leave were not voting for a particular deal and we have seem the consequence of that. Surely you can see the difference? If not, I can't help you any further.
There is no difference between the two. Cameron's deal was non existent in reality as it did not reflect what would have happened had we stayed in. All those who thought that by voting remain they were voting for no change in our position in the EU were kidding themselves. That is the reality. If you can't see that you are no help to anyone.
Seriously though, that was the elephant in the room, (far outweighing anything written on the side of single decker public transport). It was not a vote for the status quo, it was a vote for the Verhofstadts, Selmayrs, and Junckers of this world to claim a Remain vote as an endorsement for years and years of ever closer union and to press on regardless.
Just like Macron and Merkel now endorsing EU armed forces that were not supposedly on the agenda.
The UK will be participating whether the country is in the EU or not. It's that or put taxes up to increase defence spending.
The head of planning at the EUMS is a British Army 1* who is staying in position after the Glorious 29th. That should tell you which way the wind is blowing on this issue.
The Dutch army has three brigades. Two of them are now completely and permanently integrated into a German Division. Arrangements like that are the future of European defence and we'd all better start getting used to it.
LOL
why so we can bringback body bags to council estates across the country because some failing french president thinks a foreign adventure might boost his ratings
no thanks
So you'll be advocating us leaving NATO then?
Nato is a defensive organisation, try looking at how the french are talking about an EU army.
This is the basic problem with remain types, you look at what you what would like the EU to be and not at what the core members are saying it will be.
Kosovo alone shows NATO isn't a defensive organisation.
Seriously though, that was the elephant in the room, (far outweighing anything written on the side of single decker public transport). It was not a vote for the status quo, it was a vote for the Verhofstadts, Selmayrs, and Junckers of this world to claim a Remain vote as an endorsement for years and years of ever closer union and to press on regardless.
Just like Macron and Merkel now endorsing EU armed forces that were not supposedly on the agenda.
The UK will be participating whether the country is in the EU or not. It's that or put taxes up to increase defence spending.
The head of planning at the EUMS is a British Army 1* who is staying in position after the Glorious 29th. That should tell you which way the wind is blowing on this issue.
The Dutch army has three brigades. Two of them are now completely and permanently integrated into a German Division. Arrangements like that are the future of European defence and we'd all better start getting used to it.
LOL
why so we can bringback body bags to council estates across the country because some failing french president thinks a foreign adventure might boost his ratings
no thanks
The Germans aren't keen on providing bodies for Macronism
Im sceptical,
Germany is moving on
last week Schroder the previous Chancellor was calling for Germany to ditch the US and ally with Russia and China. Thats where the German left is heading and some time they will be back in power
Seriously though, that was the elephant in the room, (far outweighing anything written on the side of single decker public transport). It was not a vote for the status quo, it was a vote for the Verhofstadts, Selmayrs, and Junckers of this world to claim a Remain vote as an endorsement for years and years of ever closer union and to press on regardless.
Just like Macron and Merkel now endorsing EU armed forces that were not supposedly on the agenda.
The UK will be participating whether the country is in the EU or not. It's that or put taxes up to increase defence spending.
The head of planning at the EUMS is a British Army 1* who is staying in position after the Glorious 29th. That should tell you which way the wind is blowing on this issue.
The Dutch army has three brigades. Two of them are now completely and permanently integrated into a German Division. Arrangements like that are the future of European defence and we'd all better start getting used to it.
LOL
why so we can bringback body bags to council estates across the country because some failing french president thinks a foreign adventure might boost his ratings
no thanks
So you'll be advocating us leaving NATO then?
Nato is a defensive organisation, try looking at how the french are talking about an EU army.
This is the basic problem with remain types, you look at what you what would like the EU to be and not at what the core members are saying it will be.
That has always been our problem with the EU. We've always kidded ourselves that politicians in the core countries don't mean what they say. If France and Germany want an EU army, they'll get an EU army, and an EU army needs a strong EU government to direct it.
Seriously though, that was the elephant in the room, (far outweighing anything written on the side of single decker public transport). It was not a vote for the status quo, it was a vote for the Verhofstadts, Selmayrs, and Junckers of this world to claim a Remain vote as an endorsement for years and years of ever closer union and to press on regardless.
Just like Macron and Merkel now endorsing EU armed forces that were not supposedly on the agenda.
The UK will be participating whether the country is in the EU or not. It's that or put taxes up to increase defence spending.
The head of planning at the EUMS is a British Army 1* who is staying in position after the Glorious 29th. That should tell you which way the wind is blowing on this issue.
The Dutch army has three brigades. Two of them are now completely and permanently integrated into a German Division. Arrangements like that are the future of European defence and we'd all better start getting used to it.
LOL
why so we can bringback body bags to council estates across the country because some failing french president thinks a foreign adventure might boost his ratings
no thanks
So you'll be advocating us leaving NATO then?
Nato is a defensive organisation, try looking at how the french are talking about an EU army.
This is the basic problem with remain types, you look at what you what would like the EU to be and not at what the core members are saying it will be.
Kosovo alone shows NATO isn't a defensive organisation.
I'm trying to read the tea leaves on Number 10's apparent pivot from "It's my deal or no deal" to "It's my deal or no Brexit". As far as I can tell, it's a bad sign for the prospect of the deal getting through parliament, because it means they've given up on trying to persuade Remain/soft Brexit leaning no-voters, and are instead trying to persuade no deal/hard Brexit leaning no-voters, who are both less numerous and probably more hardened in their opposition. Or is there another interpretation?
Although the PM just confirmed to McVey that we will leave on March 29 come what may. A statement of the default, or a mixed message?
We'll Leave on March 29th and rejoin on March 30th.
Seriously though, that was the elephant in the room, (far outweighing anything written on the side of single decker public transport). It was not a vote for the status quo, it was a vote for the Verhofstadts, Selmayrs, and Junckers of this world to claim a Remain vote as an endorsement for years and years of ever closer union and to press on regardless.
Just like Macron and Merkel now endorsing EU armed forces that were not supposedly on the agenda.
The UK will be participating whether the country is in the EU or not. It's that or put taxes up to increase defence spending.
The head of planning at the EUMS is a British Army 1* who is staying in position after the Glorious 29th. That should tell you which way the wind is blowing on this issue.
The Dutch army has three brigades. Two of them are now completely and permanently integrated into a German Division. Arrangements like that are the future of European defence and we'd all better start getting used to it.
Ignoring the EU dimension for a moment we should indeed be increasing military expenditure. The end of the Cold War made the world a less safe rather than a more safe place. Our military expenditure should reflect that.
Seriously though, that was the elephant in the room, (far outweighing anything written on the side of single decker public transport). It was not a vote for the status quo, it was a vote for the Verhofstadts, Selmayrs, and Junckers of this world to claim a Remain vote as an endorsement for years and years of ever closer union and to press on regardless.
Just like Macron and Merkel now endorsing EU armed forces that were not supposedly on the agenda.
The UK will be participating whether the country is in the EU or not. It's that or put taxes up to increase defence spending.
The head of planning at the EUMS is a British Army 1* who is staying in position after the Glorious 29th. That should tell you which way the wind is blowing on this issue.
The Dutch army has three brigades. Two of them are now completely and permanently integrated into a German Division. Arrangements like that are the future of European defence and we'd all better start getting used to it.
No. We only need to be "getting used to it", if we lack the political will to disagree with it.
A Labour government might. Tories are too fond of cutting defence spending to be able to resist the siren call of the cost savings that will come with integration.
Dream on.
This is straight out of the "European integration is inevitable, so we'd better not miss the bus", school of thought that's been around since the 50's. It's not.
Good job we were fiddling for our change when the Euro bus let the stop though wasn't it?
I'm trying to read the tea leaves on Number 10's apparent pivot from "It's my deal or no deal" to "It's my deal or no Brexit". As far as I can tell, it's a bad sign for the prospect of the deal getting through parliament, because it means they've given up on trying to persuade Remain/soft Brexit leaning no-voters, and are instead trying to persuade no deal/hard Brexit leaning no-voters, who are both less numerous and probably more hardened in their opposition. Or is there another interpretation?
Although the PM just confirmed to McVey that we will leave on March 29 come what may. A statement of the default, or a mixed message?
I suspect she's trying to leave open the possibility that either side is going to get its worst option if this doesn't pass. That, combined with reminding MPs of what I sense is a far more pragmatic view "out in the country", is aimed at peeling off enough from both sides to get it through.
I accept the numbers are looking a bit unlikely at the moment, but what else do you do in her position?
Seriously though, that was the elephant in the room, (far outweighing anything written on the side of single decker public transport). It was not a vote for the status quo, it was a vote for the Verhofstadts, Selmayrs, and Junckers of this world to claim a Remain vote as an endorsement for years and years of ever closer union and to press on regardless.
Just like Macron and Merkel now endorsing EU armed forces that were not supposedly on the agenda.
The UK will be participating whether the country is in the EU or not. It's that or put taxes up to increase defence spending.
The head of planning at the EUMS is a British Army 1* who is staying in position after the Glorious 29th. That should tell you which way the wind is blowing on this issue.
The Dutch army has three brigades. Two of them are now completely and permanently integrated into a German Division. Arrangements like that are the future of European defence and we'd all better start getting used to it.
LOL
why so we can bringback body bags to council estates across the country because some failing french president thinks a foreign adventure might boost his ratings
no thanks
So you'll be advocating us leaving NATO then?
Nato is a defensive organisation, try looking at how the french are talking about an EU army.
This is the basic problem with remain types, you look at what you what would like the EU to be and not at what the core members are saying it will be.
No you're confusing me for one of your fellow Leavers.
Am very pro NATO and supported the intervention in Kosovo, just pointing out the inconsistencies of Leavers.
Ditto why are the DUP so upset about alignment of the Northern Ireland post Brexit but were happy to sign up to the all Ireland single electricity market.
Seriously though, that was the elephant in the room, (far outweighing anything written on the side of single decker public transport). It was not a vote for the status quo, it was a vote for the Verhofstadts, Selmayrs, and Junckers of this world to claim a Remain vote as an endorsement for years and years of ever closer union and to press on regardless.
Just like Macron and Merkel now endorsing EU armed forces that were not supposedly on the agenda.
The UK will be participating whether the country is in the EU or not. It's that or put taxes up to increase defence spending.
The head of planning at the EUMS is a British Army 1* who is staying in position after the Glorious 29th. That should tell you which way the wind is blowing on this issue.
The Dutch army has three brigades. Two of them are now completely and permanently integrated into a German Division. Arrangements like that are the future of European defence and we'd all better start getting used to it.
There is an underlying political issue here though - the German military can only be committed to combat with the explicit consent to the Bundestag. This has been affirmed by the Constitutional Court. The Dutch military is subordinate to German political will. One might argue that that this was the de facto case in any event but that is an explicit event. Equally where the Dutch military command integrated units (and there are a couple) their effectiveness is wholly determined by German political considerations.
Not so. People who voted for Remain were voting for Cameron's deal. That's what would have happened if Remain won. People who voted for Leave were not voting for a particular deal and we have seem the consequence of that. Surely you can see the difference? If not, I can't help you any further.
There is no difference between the two. Cameron's deal was non existent in reality as it did not reflect what would have happened had we stayed in. All those who thought that by voting remain they were voting for no change in our position in the EU were kidding themselves. That is the reality. If you can't see that you are no help to anyone.
Richard, it's good to have you back on PB but, as per your apology to Beverley the other day, I wish you would learn to moderate your more personal comments.
Your response above was fine, informative and a well-argued point, until you got to the last sentence.
There was no need for that last sentence. It adds nothing to your argument and simply personalises the discussion. You have four sentences of playing the ball and then one unnecessary sentence of playing the man.
You've clearly recognised the issue and fair play to you for doing so. Please, take a couple of seconds to reflect before hitting 'Post Comment' each time. Thank you.
I'm trying to read the tea leaves on Number 10's apparent pivot from "It's my deal or no deal" to "It's my deal or no Brexit". As far as I can tell, it's a bad sign for the prospect of the deal getting through parliament, because it means they've given up on trying to persuade Remain/soft Brexit leaning no-voters, and are instead trying to persuade no deal/hard Brexit leaning no-voters, who are both less numerous and probably more hardened in their opposition. Or is there another interpretation?
She's addressing two different constituencies - and no Brexit and no Deal are both possibilities, if her deal is rejected.
No you're confusing me for one of your fellow Leavers.
Am very pro NATO and supported the intervention in Kosovo, just pointing out the inconsistencies of Leavers.
Ditto why are the DUP so upset about alignment of the Northern Ireland post Brexit but were happy to sign up to the all Ireland single electricity market.
I'm trying to read the tea leaves on Number 10's apparent pivot from "It's my deal or no deal" to "It's my deal or no Brexit". As far as I can tell, it's a bad sign for the prospect of the deal getting through parliament, because it means they've given up on trying to persuade Remain/soft Brexit leaning no-voters, and are instead trying to persuade no deal/hard Brexit leaning no-voters, who are both less numerous and probably more hardened in their opposition. Or is there another interpretation?
She's addressing two different constituencies - and no Brexit and no Deal are both possibilities, if her deal is rejected.
So you think saying "It's my deal or no deal" to one group and "It's my deal or no Brexit" to another group simultaneously can work? Isn't this all happening too publicly for that?
I'm trying to read the tea leaves on Number 10's apparent pivot from "It's my deal or no deal" to "It's my deal or no Brexit". As far as I can tell, it's a bad sign for the prospect of the deal getting through parliament, because it means they've given up on trying to persuade Remain/soft Brexit leaning no-voters, and are instead trying to persuade no deal/hard Brexit leaning no-voters, who are both less numerous and probably more hardened in their opposition. Or is there another interpretation?
Although the PM just confirmed to McVey that we will leave on March 29 come what may. A statement of the default, or a mixed message?
I suspect she's trying to leave open the possibility that either side is going to get its worst option if this doesn't pass. That, combined with reminding MPs of what I sense is a far more pragmatic view "out in the country", is aimed at peeling off enough from both sides to get it through.
I accept the numbers are looking a bit unlikely at the moment, but what else do you do in her position?
I get that. Was just pointing out that her response to McVey was a long, long way from ruling out No Deal.
Not so. People who voted for Remain were voting for Cameron's deal. That's what would have happened if Remain won. People who voted for Leave were not voting for a particular deal and we have seem the consequence of that. Surely you can see the difference? If not, I can't help you any further.
There is no difference between the two. Cameron's deal was non existent in reality as it did not reflect what would have happened had we stayed in. All those who thought that by voting remain they were voting for no change in our position in the EU were kidding themselves. That is the reality. If you can't see that you are no help to anyone.
Richard, it's good to have you back on PB but, as per your apology to Beverley the other day, I wish you would learn to moderate your more personal comments.
Your response above was fine, informative and a well-argued point, until you got to the last sentence.
There was no need for that last sentence. It adds nothing to your argument and simply personalises the discussion. You have four sentences of playing the ball and then one unnecessary sentence of playing the man.
You've clearly recognised the issue and fair play to you for doing so. Please, take a couple of seconds to reflect before hitting 'Post Comment' each time. Thank you.
Not really. It was a direct response to the post I was answering which ended "If not, I can't help you any further."
Context old chap. It really does matter.
And in all honesty if you think that was in any way meant to be offensive then you had better keep your eyes closed when I post.
Not so. People who voted for Remain were voting for Cameron's deal. That's what would have happened if Remain won. People who voted for Leave were not voting for a particular deal and we have seem the consequence of that. Surely you can see the difference? If not, I can't help you any further.
There is no difference between the two. Cameron's deal was non existent in reality as it did not reflect what would have happened had we stayed in. All those who thought that by voting remain they were voting for no change in our position in the EU were kidding themselves. That is the reality. If you can't see that you are no help to anyone.
Richard, it's good to have you back on PB but, as per your apology to Beverley the other day, I wish you would learn to moderate your more personal comments.
Your response above was fine, informative and a well-argued point, until you got to the last sentence.
There was no need for that last sentence. It adds nothing to your argument and simply personalises the discussion. You have four sentences of playing the ball and then one unnecessary sentence of playing the man.
You've clearly recognised the issue and fair play to you for doing so. Please, take a couple of seconds to reflect before hitting 'Post Comment' each time. Thank you.
To be fair to Richard in that case, he was responding in kind, and in a similar tone, to the previous comment.
Fascinating that it's No Deal that's being nuked first by the Government. If the deal is to pass ( after everyone let's off steam on the first vote ) then they need some MPs to move to their second preference. And today's interventions from Rudd, Truss and May all suggest it's No Dealers who are being targeted first to move to their second preference. That's fascinating.
Yes. That's the perceptive comment today I think. Something. Has. Changed.
it does make sense to lean this way, simply as the No Dealers are in her own party so (in theory) have far more reason to come into line than Labour remainers scared of No Deal. Will the blowback against the Rees Mogg Comedy Squad be enough that ERG members peel off and vote for the deal instead? That's what she needs.
Not so. People who voted for Remain were voting for Cameron's deal. That's what would have happened if Remain won. People who voted for Leave were not voting for a particular deal and we have seem the consequence of that. Surely you can see the difference? If not, I can't help you any further.
There is no difference between the two. Cameron's deal was non existent in reality as it did not reflect what would have happened had we stayed in. All those who thought that by voting remain they were voting for no change in our position in the EU were kidding themselves. That is the reality. If you can't see that you are no help to anyone.
Richard, it's good to have you back on PB but, as per your apology to Beverley the other day, I wish you would learn to moderate your more personal comments.
Your response above was fine, informative and a well-argued point, until you got to the last sentence.
There was no need for that last sentence. It adds nothing to your argument and simply personalises the discussion. You have four sentences of playing the ball and then one unnecessary sentence of playing the man.
You've clearly recognised the issue and fair play to you for doing so. Please, take a couple of seconds to reflect before hitting 'Post Comment' each time. Thank you.
To be fair to Richard in that case, he was responding in kind, and in a similar tone, to the previous comment.
Sure, I can see that. I've been through the same thing in previous years (on other forums) of learning not to be riled and not to respond in kind. I find life is easier and the discussion more civil if you don't rise to it. I don't always succeed and pretty much always regret it (generally I'm most susceptible on a Friday evening after getting back from the pub, hey ho).
Entirely each poster's choice as to the style they adopt (and the admins/moderators, of course), but I would strongly recommend learning to take the higher ground.
I'm trying to read the tea leaves on Number 10's apparent pivot from "It's my deal or no deal" to "It's my deal or no Brexit". As far as I can tell, it's a bad sign for the prospect of the deal getting through parliament, because it means they've given up on trying to persuade Remain/soft Brexit leaning no-voters, and are instead trying to persuade no deal/hard Brexit leaning no-voters, who are both less numerous and probably more hardened in their opposition. Or is there another interpretation?
She's addressing two different constituencies - and no Brexit and no Deal are both possibilities, if her deal is rejected.
She is now moving towards EUref2 if her Deal is rejected which would almost certainly see Remain win so she is telling the ERG back my Deal on a first or second vote or see Brexit likely cancelled
Seriously though, that was the elephant in the room, (far outweighing anything written on the side of single decker public transport). It was not a vote for the status quo, it was a vote for the Verhofstadts, Selmayrs, and Junckers of this world to claim a Remain vote as an endorsement for years and years of ever closer union and to press on regardless.
Just like Macron and Merkel now endorsing EU armed forces that were not supposedly on the agenda.
The UK will be participating whether the country is in the EU or not. It's that or put taxes up to increase defence spending.
The head of planning at the EUMS is a British Army 1* who is staying in position after the Glorious 29th. That should tell you which way the wind is blowing on this issue.
The Dutch army has three brigades. Two of them are now completely and permanently integrated into a German Division. Arrangements like that are the future of European defence and we'd all better start getting used to it.
Ignoring the EU dimension for a moment we should indeed be increasing military expenditure. The end of the Cold War made the world a less safe rather than a more safe place. Our military expenditure should reflect that.
Less safe as in repelling the Third Shock Army or less safe as in trying to combat some bloke in a Toyota Hi-Lux with a set of sabatiers strapped to his wrist?
The former seems beyond our remit while the latter doesn't require too many Challenger 2s.
I'm trying to read the tea leaves on Number 10's apparent pivot from "It's my deal or no deal" to "It's my deal or no Brexit". As far as I can tell, it's a bad sign for the prospect of the deal getting through parliament, because it means they've given up on trying to persuade Remain/soft Brexit leaning no-voters, and are instead trying to persuade no deal/hard Brexit leaning no-voters, who are both less numerous and probably more hardened in their opposition. Or is there another interpretation?
She's addressing two different constituencies - and no Brexit and no Deal are both possibilities, if her deal is rejected.
She is now moving towards EUref2 if her Deal is rejected which would almost certainly see Remain win so she is telling the ERG back my Deal on a first or second vote or see Brexit likely cancelled
Seems like she's abandoned any hope of winning in 2022.
I'm trying to read the tea leaves on Number 10's apparent pivot from "It's my deal or no deal" to "It's my deal or no Brexit". As far as I can tell, it's a bad sign for the prospect of the deal getting through parliament, because it means they've given up on trying to persuade Remain/soft Brexit leaning no-voters, and are instead trying to persuade no deal/hard Brexit leaning no-voters, who are both less numerous and probably more hardened in their opposition. Or is there another interpretation?
She's addressing two different constituencies - and no Brexit and no Deal are both possibilities, if her deal is rejected.
She is now moving towards EUref2 if her Deal is rejected which would almost certainly see Remain win so she is telling the ERG back my Deal on a first or second vote or see Brexit likely cancelled
Seems like she's abandoned any hope of winning in 2022.
On today's Yougov she would actually gain a seat in 2022 even with UKIP up to 6%.
Can you imagine how much fun future family gatherings are going to be?
She told the court yesterday that he must have filled out the form she was sent with false information and that she had never asked him why he had done this.
David Jeremy, QC, for the prosecution, said: “If that was true then Festus was letting you walk into a police interview under caution knowing he had put false details on your form and forged your signature. He was essentially setting you up.” Ms Onasanya said: “Yes.”
Asked why her brother would do that, she said: “No one is above mistakes. He is my brother. It’s only me, my brother and mum. I just don’t know why he would do something like this.”
Helping get Trump get elected could go down as one of the biggest Pyrrhic victories of all time for Putin.
I'm far from convinced that Putin's interference was as direct as some people make out. Trunp will have dodgy connections with Russia, and these may bite him in the ass. However I think that Putin wants is to sow discord throughout the civilised world. Hence he'd 'support' Trump over the same-old-same-old Clinton, or Brexit over remain. He doesn't need to have official contacts with the campaigns (though he may), he can just help them from a distance, for instance by using his troll armies.
I'm trying to read the tea leaves on Number 10's apparent pivot from "It's my deal or no deal" to "It's my deal or no Brexit". As far as I can tell, it's a bad sign for the prospect of the deal getting through parliament, because it means they've given up on trying to persuade Remain/soft Brexit leaning no-voters, and are instead trying to persuade no deal/hard Brexit leaning no-voters, who are both less numerous and probably more hardened in their opposition. Or is there another interpretation?
She's addressing two different constituencies - and no Brexit and no Deal are both possibilities, if her deal is rejected.
So you think saying "It's my deal or no deal" to one group and "It's my deal or no Brexit" to another group simultaneously can work? Isn't this all happening too publicly for that?
I'd say it's consistent with her position all along, really - "the people have spoken" and also "we can't have a jump-off-the-cliff hard Brexit".
The two recent updates are:
- It turns out those two + everyone's red lines are incompatible so everyone's getting bits of what they want along with a double side order of shit sandwich.
- an obviously unspoken nuance of "be warned, I may not be in control of what happens next if this doesn't work.. so *that other lot over there* might get their way if you don't support me".
Blimey, is this really the best Sir Vince can come up with?
Sir Vince Cable, the Lib Dem leader, says under the withdrawal agreement, the chairs of the arbitration panels set up to resolve differences will be chosen by lot. He knows the government is close to the gambling industry, but isn’t that taking it too far.
May says both sides get to recommend potential chairs for the arbitration panels.
I'm trying to read the tea leaves on Number 10's apparent pivot from "It's my deal or no deal" to "It's my deal or no Brexit". As far as I can tell, it's a bad sign for the prospect of the deal getting through parliament, because it means they've given up on trying to persuade Remain/soft Brexit leaning no-voters, and are instead trying to persuade no deal/hard Brexit leaning no-voters, who are both less numerous and probably more hardened in their opposition. Or is there another interpretation?
She's addressing two different constituencies - and no Brexit and no Deal are both possibilities, if her deal is rejected.
She is now moving towards EUref2 if her Deal is rejected which would almost certainly see Remain win so she is telling the ERG back my Deal on a first or second vote or see Brexit likely cancelled
If they're rational it will work. However, 1) She has to set things up to make the re-referendum threat credible 2) If she's doing that, she has even less prospect of getting opposition less-bad-option Remainist votes for her deal, which makes her dependent on the most extreme end of the DUP/ERG 3) ...and if a few of those guys aren't rational, it gets triggered.
... - an obviously unspoken nuance of "be warned, I may not be in control of what happens next if this doesn't work.. so *that other lot over there* might get their way if you don't support me".
Blimey, is this really the best Sir Vince can come up with?
Sir Vince Cable, the Lib Dem leader, says under the withdrawal agreement, the chairs of the arbitration panels set up to resolve differences will be chosen by lot. He knows the government is close to the gambling industry, but isn’t that taking it too far.
May says both sides get to recommend potential chairs for the arbitration panels.
If both UKIP are rising and the Tories are holding steady it implies the "middle ground" voter is going to go Tory over Labour (Or Labourites staying at home - some variation thereof) Anyhow UKIP 6 , Tories 39 is good news for May. More 2015 than 2017.
Blimey, is this really the best Sir Vince can come up with?
Sir Vince Cable, the Lib Dem leader, says under the withdrawal agreement, the chairs of the arbitration panels set up to resolve differences will be chosen by lot. He knows the government is close to the gambling industry, but isn’t that taking it too far.
May says both sides get to recommend potential chairs for the arbitration panels.
I'm trying to read the tea leaves on Number 10's apparent pivot from "It's my deal or no deal" to "It's my deal or no Brexit". As far as I can tell, it's a bad sign for the prospect of the deal getting through parliament, because it means they've given up on trying to persuade Remain/soft Brexit leaning no-voters, and are instead trying to persuade no deal/hard Brexit leaning no-voters, who are both less numerous and probably more hardened in their opposition. Or is there another interpretation?
She's addressing two different constituencies - and no Brexit and no Deal are both possibilities, if her deal is rejected.
She is now moving towards EUref2 if her Deal is rejected which would almost certainly see Remain win so she is telling the ERG back my Deal on a first or second vote or see Brexit likely cancelled
If they're rational it will work. However, 1) She has to set things up to make the re-referendum threat credible 2) If she's doing that, she has even less prospect of getting opposition less-bad-option Remainist votes for her deal, which makes her dependent on the most extreme end of the DUP/ERG 3) ...and if a few of those guys aren't rational, it gets triggered.
Fun isn't it...
all the while the clock is running down and No-deal is the current default.
Can you imagine how much fun future family gatherings are going to be?
She told the court yesterday that he must have filled out the form she was sent with false information and that she had never asked him why he had done this.
David Jeremy, QC, for the prosecution, said: “If that was true then Festus was letting you walk into a police interview under caution knowing he had put false details on your form and forged your signature. He was essentially setting you up.” Ms Onasanya said: “Yes.”
Asked why her brother would do that, she said: “No one is above mistakes. He is my brother. It’s only me, my brother and mum. I just don’t know why he would do something like this.”
The thought process is, I suspect, that one can repair family relations but be convicted and one will lose one's job and will (I think she's a solicitor) be struck off.
If that is the case, it's deeply cynical but peoples' morality can be remarkably flexible.
I'm trying to read the tea leaves on Number 10's apparent pivot from "It's my deal or no deal" to "It's my deal or no Brexit". As far as I can tell, it's a bad sign for the prospect of the deal getting through parliament, because it means they've given up on trying to persuade Remain/soft Brexit leaning no-voters, and are instead trying to persuade no deal/hard Brexit leaning no-voters, who are both less numerous and probably more hardened in their opposition. Or is there another interpretation?
She's addressing two different constituencies - and no Brexit and no Deal are both possibilities, if her deal is rejected.
She is now moving towards EUref2 if her Deal is rejected which would almost certainly see Remain win so she is telling the ERG back my Deal on a first or second vote or see Brexit likely cancelled
If they're rational it will work. However, 1) She has to set things up to make the re-referendum threat credible 2) If she's doing that, she has even less prospect of getting opposition less-bad-option Remainist votes for her deal, which makes her dependent on the most extreme end of the DUP/ERG 3) ...and if a few of those guys aren't rational, it gets triggered.
It's funny that the pollsters seem to be shying away from actually asking the question "what do you think of the deal?"
Because while we're farting about laughing at some old white men prancing around for our amusement, opposition to the deal seems to be hardening in all quarters.
Ken Clarke's declaration he will vote for the deal is significant.
Yeah it's "significant" that the biggest pro-EU fanatic in politics is satisfied Theresa May's deal is Remain in all but name and the referendum result is being overturned...
You are on the extreme view of brexit and you do not seem to realise that extremes are a massive minority
It shows how insular and ridiculous the views on here are that proper Brexit that 17 million people voted for is now being branded "extreme".
You have no evidence that the 17 million voted to trash our manufacturing and the union.
However, if you are confident of your cause support a second referendum
The majority already voted to leave, don't you people understand?
Yes, we do.
Unfortunately too many leavers don't seem to understand that no-one has a clue what 'leave' actually meant. This is due to the central lie at the heart of the leave campaigns, and the inconsistent messages they gave.
Now, if leave had been honest we wouldn't be in this terrible situation. Then again, leave wouldn't have won.
So the leave voters were actually voting for what the remainers wanted all along.
What a load of drivel.
Leave voters were voting for a number of mutually inconsistent positions. Some leave voters preferred all of those positions to remain. Others preferred remain to some of those positions that could be categorised as 'leave' (if you have any doubt about that, think about how many Brexiters don't like the deal which is one form of leave).
Remain voters didn't want to leave in any form, which is probably the key difference.
Remain meant different things to different people, some wanted the status quo, some wanted ever closer union, some wanted to join the Euro, some didn't want to stay in but were too worried about leaving.
The idea that all remain votes were the same is total bollocks frankly.
But nonetheless, the policy to be followed in the event of a remain was clear and well understood.
If the DUP withdraw support and TM cannot govern she must go to the Country and seek a mandate. In those circumstances I do not see it as a walk in the park for Corbyn
It would be a one-issue election. With JC stuck on the fence with his 5 tests and the Tories riven in two.
There's is no such thing as one issue election as we saw in 2017.
Jezza will walk an election IMO.
That is your hoped for position. This would be a brexit election and he is not going to walk it. Latest indication is he will be down to one seat in Scotland
Theresa May wanted the 2017 election to be a Brexit election - just as Ted Heath wanted the February 1974 election to be entirely focussed on the coal strike. Both were disappointed. Most people - beyond political anoraks - are sick to death of Brexit and want to move on. An election campaign of five or six weeks would see voters very receptive to other issues being raised. Re- Scotland - recent polls have the SNP on 37%/38%.For several years, they have underperformed their poll ratings, and I believe they would struggle to manage 35% in a Westminster election. Moreover, if Labour remains highly competitive in GB polls - whether level pegging or a small lead - that is likely to impact on voting intentions in Scotland with Labour likely to advance at SNP expense.'Getting the Tories out' will override the Independence issue.
It's funny that the pollsters seem to be shying away from actually asking the question "what do you think of the deal?"
Because while we're farting about laughing at some old white men prancing around for our amusement, opposition to the deal seems to be hardening in all quarters.
And the options for people unhappy with the deal are narrowing.
It's funny that the pollsters seem to be shying away from actually asking the question "what do you think of the deal?"
Because while we're farting about laughing at some old white men prancing around for our amusement, opposition to the deal seems to be hardening in all quarters.
Not sure there is any evidence for that but let's wait and see where we are this time next week post the European Council meeting this sunday and the resulting media blitz that will follow
It's funny that the pollsters seem to be shying away from actually asking the question "what do you think of the deal?"
Because while we're farting about laughing at some old white men prancing around for our amusement, opposition to the deal seems to be hardening in all quarters.
LOL. What do you think of A La Recherche du Temps Perdu would probably yield more informed answers.
I'm trying to read the tea leaves on Number 10's apparent pivot from "It's my deal or no deal" to "It's my deal or no Brexit". As far as I can tell, it's a bad sign for the prospect of the deal getting through parliament, because it means they've given up on trying to persuade Remain/soft Brexit leaning no-voters, and are instead trying to persuade no deal/hard Brexit leaning no-voters, who are both less numerous and probably more hardened in their opposition. Or is there another interpretation?
She's addressing two different constituencies - and no Brexit and no Deal are both possibilities, if her deal is rejected.
So you think saying "It's my deal or no deal" to one group and "It's my deal or no Brexit" to another group simultaneously can work? Isn't this all happening too publicly for that?
I'd say it's consistent with her position all along, really - "the people have spoken" and also "we can't have a jump-off-the-cliff hard Brexit".
The two recent updates are:
- It turns out those two + everyone's red lines are incompatible so everyone's getting bits of what they want along with a double side order of shit sandwich.
- an obviously unspoken nuance of "be warned, I may not be in control of what happens next if this doesn't work.. so *that other lot over there* might get their way if you don't support me".
The polling is another object lesson in the unusual volatility of a significant proportion of the electorate on Europe. The people may have spoken, but it appears that 10-15% of them are prepared to change their opinions in the space of a week.
If the DUP withdraw support and TM cannot govern she must go to the Country and seek a mandate. In those circumstances I do not see it as a walk in the park for Corbyn
It would be a one-issue election. With JC stuck on the fence with his 5 tests and the Tories riven in two.
There's is no such thing as one issue election as we saw in 2017.
Jezza will walk an election IMO.
That is your hoped for position. This would be a brexit election and he is not going to walk it. Latest indication is he will be down to one seat in Scotland
Theresa May wanted the 2017 election to be a Brexit election - just as Ted Heath wanted the February 1974 election to be entirely focussed on the coal strike. Both were disappointed. Most people - beyond political anoraks - are sick to death of Brexit and want to move on. An election campaign of five or six weeks would see voters very receptive to other issues being raised. Re- Scotland - recent polls have the SNP on 37%/38%.For several years, they have underperformed their poll ratings, and I believe they would struggle to manage 35% in a Westminster election. Moreover, if Labour remains highly competitive in GB polls - whether level pegging or a small lead - that is likely to impact on voting intentions in Scotland with Labour likely to advance at SNP expense.'Getting the Tories out' will override the Independence issue.
They may be sick to death of it but they realise (J. Corbyn apart) that it is the only game in town right now.
It's funny that the pollsters seem to be shying away from actually asking the question "what do you think of the deal?"
Because while we're farting about laughing at some old white men prancing around for our amusement, opposition to the deal seems to be hardening in all quarters.
LOL. What do you think of A La Recherche du Temps Perdu would probably yield more informed answers.
A La Recherche du Temps Perdu could be the name of a Brexiteer manifesto.
If TM wins this she is entitled to stay as long as she wishes. Furthermore she has recently shown a side of her which was not on view in 2017.
This is heading towards her 'Falklands' moment
She'll be entitled to stay but she will go. She will have expended all her energy on it, political or otherwise.
And if that is the case she will have secured her legacy and respect
Her legacy of having completely bollocksed up the Brexit negotiations, failed to convince her party of her dodgy deal, and then slinking off into the sunset a broken and exhausted failure.
TBH it's better than the incompetent racist old fuck deserves as a legacy.
It's funny that the pollsters seem to be shying away from actually asking the question "what do you think of the deal?"
Because while we're farting about laughing at some old white men prancing around for our amusement, opposition to the deal seems to be hardening in all quarters.
Isn't hating them for being old, white and men enough entertainment for you?
It's funny that the pollsters seem to be shying away from actually asking the question "what do you think of the deal?"
Because while we're farting about laughing at some old white men prancing around for our amusement, opposition to the deal seems to be hardening in all quarters.
LOL. What do you think of A La Recherche du Temps Perdu would probably yield more informed answers.
A La Recherche du Temps Perdu could be the name of a Brexiteer manifesto.
If the DUP withdraw support and TM cannot govern she must go to the Country and seek a mandate. In those circumstances I do not see it as a walk in the park for Corbyn
It would be a one-issue election. With JC stuck on the fence with his 5 tests and the Tories riven in two.
There's is no such thing as one issue election as we saw in 2017.
Jezza will walk an election IMO.
That is your hoped for position. This would be a brexit election and he is not going to walk it. Latest indication is he will be down to one seat in Scotland
Theresa May wanted the 2017 election to be a Brexit election - just as Ted Heath wanted the February 1974 election to be entirely focussed on the coal strike. Both were disappointed. Most people - beyond political anoraks - are sick to death of Brexit and want to move on. An election campaign of five or six weeks would see voters very receptive to other issues being raised. Re- Scotland - recent polls have the SNP on 37%/38%.For several years, they have underperformed their poll ratings, and I believe they would struggle to manage 35% in a Westminster election. Moreover, if Labour remains highly competitive in GB polls - whether level pegging or a small lead - that is likely to impact on voting intentions in Scotland with Labour likely to advance at SNP expense.'Getting the Tories out' will override the Independence issue.
You keep repeating the same mantra but this weeks Scottish poll showed the SNP increasing to 40% and the conservatives losing seats and labour down to 1
This trend is also very much evidenced in my social media with my Scottish family and friends
It's funny that the pollsters seem to be shying away from actually asking the question "what do you think of the deal?"
Because while we're farting about laughing at some old white men prancing around for our amusement, opposition to the deal seems to be hardening in all quarters.
LOL. What do you think of A La Recherche du Temps Perdu would probably yield more informed answers.
That book once got me a job offer. The interviewer turned out to be a great Proust fan, but only in the English translation. I had just read it in French.
It's funny that the pollsters seem to be shying away from actually asking the question "what do you think of the deal?"
Because while we're farting about laughing at some old white men prancing around for our amusement, opposition to the deal seems to be hardening in all quarters.
LOL. What do you think of A La Recherche du Temps Perdu would probably yield more informed answers.
A La Recherche du Temps Perdu could be the name of a Brexiteer manifesto.
Brace yourselves, we're going to be deluged by Southerners complaining about the snow.
The first snow of the winter fell overnight in parts of the UK.
Brighton, Dorset and Kent were among the areas to have received a dusting of the white stuff after a cold blast arrived from the continent, which was forecast to bring an end to the mild November Britons had been experiencing.
Snow has also fallen in northern England, including North Yorkshire where it was particularly heavy, as well as on Exmoor in the South West, the Midlands and Wales.
Heavy snow in Kent and East Sussex while the rest of the country isn't even cool is reasonably common. I remember one year when it was about 4 inches deep in Hastings while 20 miles along the coast in Eastbourne the sun was shining and people weren't even wearing coats. It rarely gets a mention on the news.
I'm trying to read the tea leaves on Number 10's apparent pivot from "It's my deal or no deal" to "It's my deal or no Brexit". As far as I can tell, it's a bad sign for the prospect of the deal getting through parliament, because it means they've given up on trying to persuade Remain/soft Brexit leaning no-voters, and are instead trying to persuade no deal/hard Brexit leaning no-voters, who are both less numerous and probably more hardened in their opposition. Or is there another interpretation?
She's addressing two different constituencies - and no Brexit and no Deal are both possibilities, if her deal is rejected.
So you think saying "It's my deal or no deal" to one group and "It's my deal or no Brexit" to another group simultaneously can work? Isn't this all happening too publicly for that?
I'd say it's consistent with her position all along, really - "the people have spoken" and also "we can't have a jump-off-the-cliff hard Brexit".
The two recent updates are:
- It turns out those two + everyone's red lines are incompatible so everyone's getting bits of what they want along with a double side order of shit sandwich.
- an obviously unspoken nuance of "be warned, I may not be in control of what happens next if this doesn't work.. so *that other lot over there* might get their way if you don't support me".
The polling is another object lesson in the unusual volatility of a significant proportion of the electorate on Europe. The people may have spoken, but it appears that 10-15% of them are prepared to change their opinions in the space of a week.
I couldn't agree more (and posted as much last night). I'm just summarising the Brexit/gov viewpoint that the referendum result must stand.. whatever has changed since. A view with which I sympathise, despite thinking there's wiggle-room now the shape of Brexit is better-known.
It's funny that the pollsters seem to be shying away from actually asking the question "what do you think of the deal?"
Because while we're farting about laughing at some old white men prancing around for our amusement, opposition to the deal seems to be hardening in all quarters.
Not sure there is any evidence for that but let's wait and see where we are this time next week post the European Council meeting this sunday and the resulting media blitz that will follow
Yes, when it becomes clear that the Council was perfectly willing to negotiate with France and Spain, but when it comes to backstop, "the deal is done"...
That should flip another 5-10 Tory MPs into opposing the deal.
It's funny that the pollsters seem to be shying away from actually asking the question "what do you think of the deal?"
Because while we're farting about laughing at some old white men prancing around for our amusement, opposition to the deal seems to be hardening in all quarters.
LOL. What do you think of A La Recherche du Temps Perdu would probably yield more informed answers.
That book once got me a job offer. The interviewer turned out to be a great Proust fan, but only in the English translation. I had just read it in French.
(I didn't take the job offer, though).
It's a book one doesn't so much as read, as slide through face first.
It's funny that the pollsters seem to be shying away from actually asking the question "what do you think of the deal?"
Because while we're farting about laughing at some old white men prancing around for our amusement, opposition to the deal seems to be hardening in all quarters.
LOL. What do you think of A La Recherche du Temps Perdu would probably yield more informed answers.
That book once got me a job offer. The interviewer turned out to be a great Proust fan, but only in the English translation. I had just read it in French.
It's funny that the pollsters seem to be shying away from actually asking the question "what do you think of the deal?"
Because while we're farting about laughing at some old white men prancing around for our amusement, opposition to the deal seems to be hardening in all quarters.
Does it? The small and unrepresentative sample of people I have spoken to about it are pro-May and pro the deal. (I am talking about 6 women though, and I think there may be a gender divide on this.)
If TM wins this she is entitled to stay as long as she wishes. Furthermore she has recently shown a side of her which was not on view in 2017.
This is heading towards her 'Falklands' moment
She'll be entitled to stay but she will go. She will have expended all her energy on it, political or otherwise.
And if that is the case she will have secured her legacy and respect
Her legacy of having completely bollocksed up the Brexit negotiations, failed to convince her party of her dodgy deal, and then slinking off into the sunset a broken and exhausted failure.
TBH it's better than the incompetent racist old fuck deserves as a legacy.
Your crude language is pathetic. Manners maketh man
It's funny that the pollsters seem to be shying away from actually asking the question "what do you think of the deal?"
Because while we're farting about laughing at some old white men prancing around for our amusement, opposition to the deal seems to be hardening in all quarters.
Isn't hating them for being old, white and men enough entertainment for you?
Let's be clear, JRM making himself look like a twat has been enormous pleasing for me.
The idea that this has had *any* impact on people's opposition to May's dodgy deal, however, seems like the most ludicrous of wishful thinking.
(Stand Up 4 Brexit now claim the total number of Tories declared against the deal is 58. That excludes all those who resigned last week).
I wonder if the EU's bad faith refusal to discuss the backstop will make this a nice round 70 by Sunday teatime.
If TM wins this she is entitled to stay as long as she wishes. Furthermore she has recently shown a side of her which was not on view in 2017.
This is heading towards her 'Falklands' moment
She'll be entitled to stay but she will go. She will have expended all her energy on it, political or otherwise.
And if that is the case she will have secured her legacy and respect
Her legacy of having completely bollocksed up the Brexit negotiations, failed to convince her party of her dodgy deal, and then slinking off into the sunset a broken and exhausted failure.
TBH it's better than the incompetent racist old fuck deserves as a legacy.
Your crude language is pathetic. Manners maketh man
Big G you are a lot better when you are the authentic voice of Conservatism and as such a national (PB) treasure.
It's funny that the pollsters seem to be shying away from actually asking the question "what do you think of the deal?"
Because while we're farting about laughing at some old white men prancing around for our amusement, opposition to the deal seems to be hardening in all quarters.
LOL. What do you think of A La Recherche du Temps Perdu would probably yield more informed answers.
That book once got me a job offer. The interviewer turned out to be a great Proust fan, but only in the English translation. I had just read it in French.
(I didn't take the job offer, though).
Not for Hachette I'm guessing...
No, Strategic Planning at BP. Hell, I might have ended up as leader of the LibDems if I'd taken up the offer.
Comments
The head of planning at the EUMS is a British Army 1* who is staying in position after the Glorious 29th. That should tell you which way the wind is blowing on this issue.
The Dutch army has three brigades. Two of them are now completely and permanently integrated into a German Division. Arrangements like that are the future of European defence and we'd all better start getting used to it.
However if Corbyn moves and fails to get a General Election - then Labour have the cover to move.
So JRM is either so arrogant or so lazy as to not have bothered, or so arrogant as to have disregarded what others are telling him. Or, I suppose, his is the part of Somerset where all the idiots live.
why so we can bringback body bags to council estates across the country because some failing french president thinks a foreign adventure might boost his ratings
no thanks
The first snow of the winter fell overnight in parts of the UK.
Brighton, Dorset and Kent were among the areas to have received a dusting of the white stuff after a cold blast arrived from the continent, which was forecast to bring an end to the mild November Britons had been experiencing.
Snow has also fallen in northern England, including North Yorkshire where it was particularly heavy, as well as on Exmoor in the South West, the Midlands and Wales.
https://news.sky.com/story/snow-falls-in-parts-of-uk-as-temperatures-fall-11559338
A statement of the default, or a mixed message?
This is the basic problem with remain types, you look at what you what would like the EU to be and not at what the core members are saying it will be.
Ceuta
cough
Melilla
Merkel's demob happy (pun intended) and happy to say out loud what she thinks on this now.
Yet all this was never happening pre referendum. Amazing. Whodathunk it?
Germany is moving on
last week Schroder the previous Chancellor was calling for Germany to ditch the US and ally with Russia and China. Thats where the German left is heading and some time they will be back in power
We have spent 2 years of blood and treasure because of it, but sadly for the Brextremists we live in a democracy. No vote can bind any future vote...
But....
https://twitter.com/BBCVickiYoung/status/1065223890501275649
This is straight out of the "European integration is inevitable, so we'd better not miss the bus", school of thought that's been around since the 50's. It's not.
Good job we were fiddling for our change when the Euro bus let the stop though wasn't it?
I accept the numbers are looking a bit unlikely at the moment, but what else do you do in her position?
Am very pro NATO and supported the intervention in Kosovo, just pointing out the inconsistencies of Leavers.
Ditto why are the DUP so upset about alignment of the Northern Ireland post Brexit but were happy to sign up to the all Ireland single electricity market.
http://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/joe-we-re-seeing-worst-of-trump-after-midterms-1376761923942?v=railb&
Your response above was fine, informative and a well-argued point, until you got to the last sentence.
There was no need for that last sentence. It adds nothing to your argument and simply personalises the discussion. You have four sentences of playing the ball and then one unnecessary sentence of playing the man.
You've clearly recognised the issue and fair play to you for doing so. Please, take a couple of seconds to reflect before hitting 'Post Comment' each time. Thank you.
Whatever it is they are still doing Afghanistan can't really be characterised as defensive 17 years after the original A5 declaration.
Context old chap. It really does matter.
And in all honesty if you think that was in any way meant to be offensive then you had better keep your eyes closed when I post.
it does make sense to lean this way, simply as the No Dealers are in her own party so (in theory) have far more reason to come into line than Labour remainers scared of No Deal. Will the blowback against the Rees Mogg Comedy Squad be enough that ERG members peel off and vote for the deal instead? That's what she needs.
Entirely each poster's choice as to the style they adopt (and the admins/moderators, of course), but I would strongly recommend learning to take the higher ground.
obligatory https://xkcd.com/386/
The former seems beyond our remit while the latter doesn't require too many Challenger 2s.
Why risk it with a No Deal recession?
Hmmm
The two recent updates are:
- It turns out those two + everyone's red lines are incompatible so everyone's getting bits of what they want along with a double side order of shit sandwich.
- an obviously unspoken nuance of "be warned, I may not be in control of what happens next if this doesn't work.. so *that other lot over there* might get their way if you don't support me".
Sir Vince Cable, the Lib Dem leader, says under the withdrawal agreement, the chairs of the arbitration panels set up to resolve differences will be chosen by lot. He knows the government is close to the gambling industry, but isn’t that taking it too far.
May says both sides get to recommend potential chairs for the arbitration panels.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/nov/21/brexit-pmqs-may-corbyn-rudd-says-mps-wont-allow-no-deal-brexit-contradicting-may-politics-live
12:50
1) She has to set things up to make the re-referendum threat credible
2) If she's doing that, she has even less prospect of getting opposition less-bad-option Remainist votes for her deal, which makes her dependent on the most extreme end of the DUP/ERG
3) ...and if a few of those guys aren't rational, it gets triggered.
Vince Cable needs to get his facts right
Anyhow UKIP 6 , Tories 39 is good news for May. More 2015 than 2017.
all the while the clock is running down and No-deal is the current default.
If that is the case, it's deeply cynical but peoples' morality can be remarkably flexible.
This is heading towards her 'Falklands' moment
Because while we're farting about laughing at some old white men prancing around for our amusement, opposition to the deal seems to be hardening in all quarters.
Proposal: slice him in half and count the rings?
Re- Scotland - recent polls have the SNP on 37%/38%.For several years, they have underperformed their poll ratings, and I believe they would struggle to manage 35% in a Westminster election. Moreover, if Labour remains highly competitive in GB polls - whether level pegging or a small lead - that is likely to impact on voting intentions in Scotland with Labour likely to advance at SNP expense.'Getting the Tories out' will override the Independence issue.
The people may have spoken, but it appears that 10-15% of them are prepared to change their opinions in the space of a week.
TBH it's better than the incompetent racist old fuck deserves as a legacy.
This trend is also very much evidenced in my social media with my Scottish family and friends
(I didn't take the job offer, though).
That should flip another 5-10 Tory MPs into opposing the deal.
The idea that this has had *any* impact on people's opposition to May's dodgy deal, however, seems like the most ludicrous of wishful thinking.
(Stand Up 4 Brexit now claim the total number of Tories declared against the deal is 58. That excludes all those who resigned last week).
I wonder if the EU's bad faith refusal to discuss the backstop will make this a nice round 70 by Sunday teatime.
Language and manners policeman, less so.