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  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    Another thicko who thinks the 'Future Relationship' can be agreed let alone negotiated before we've left.....
    The impressive thing is that, even though the PD is a meaningless bag of piss and wind, a total farce, May still contrived to lose at it.
  • Actually the Brexiteers should be pretty pleased with the direction set out in today's document, as it is a little closer to their preferred 'Canada Plus' end-point than Chequers would have been.

    'Should' and 'will' are not the same thing, of course. They seem to have got themselves into a mindset of trashing everything even if it's exactly what they've been asking for. More fool them - if they are successful in their trashing, there are only two possible outcomes; either Brexit doesn't happen, or it happens in disaster, in both cases with the added danger of Corbyn.

    From the other side of the referendum fence I agree with you entirely.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    Anorak said:

    Pulpstar said:

    They British people do indeed want this to be settled. By cancelling Brexit.
    Hold on, you voted to leave didn't you ?
    but he KNOWS what we really, really want
    A zigga zig ah?
    or a zigga zig nah
    Zigga zig ayes to the right 324
    Zigga zig noes to the left 288

    I declare this motion really, really wanted.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    matt said:


    For those few people who are actually interested in the facts, this is a good source:

    https://twitter.com/remkorteweg/status/1065173307769700353

    The UK fleet also catches/traps a shit-load of crab, lobster and shellfish (such as cockles and whelks) that have no market in the UK - despite us being an 'island nation' - and which get sent to markets in Europe.
    We don't eat fish or shellfish (well apart from boneless whitefish which doesn't look like fish) and rarely have done. We're not prepared to pay the cost and we don't know how to cook.
    I hadn't realised that I'm the exception that proves the rule, about eating anyway.
  • Another thicko who thinks the 'Future Relationship' can be agreed let alone negotiated before we've left.....
    To be fair she has a point, but I'm not sure what choice the government had, faced with the EU's point-blank refusal to negotiate other than that way round.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited November 2018

    Anorak said:

    but he KNOWS what we really, really want

    A zigga zig ah?
    or a zigga zig nah
    The Spice Girls were the Nostradamus of Brexit. Here they are cryptically describing the ERG position:

    You want my future
    Forget my past
    If you wanna get with me
    Better make it fast
    Now don't go wasting
    My precious time
    Get your act together we could be just fine


    Spooky.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958

    Pulpstar said:

    They British people do indeed want this to be settled. By cancelling Brexit.
    Hold on, you voted to leave didn't you ?
    Yes.

    But the polling is pretty clear. People do want Brexit settled, and what they want is, in order of popularity:

    Remain
    People's Vote
    Labour BRINO/Norway4Now
    No Deal
    Some other completely insane random made-up nonsense
    And then right down at the bottom, May's aborted fetus brexit.

    May's talent for being no things to no people, has led to her producing a deal that is the least favoured choice of everyone. Remainers, Leavers, Tories, Labour, Nationalists, Unionists.

    She's a great unifier.
    May's deal is the last Christmas tree. Mis-shapen, stunted, shedding its needles. As far from the promise of festive fun as it is possible to get.

    The only person who could ever buy it is someone who has refused to buy one earlier. Who has driven past hundreds. Failed to plan for it. And now, nearly home, dark, on Christmas Eve, has run out of options.

    That tree is going to look lovely in the hall of Downing Street. Four tawdry baubles. A string of thread-bare tinsel. A set of lights - that don't work, as she can't find where the fault is.

    Ho ho ho.
  • For those few people who are actually interested in the facts, this is a good source:

    https://twitter.com/remkorteweg/status/1065173307769700353

    Can anyone please explain to me why access to waters and access to markets need be linked?

    We can both export and import goods without requiring or being able to get the other nations natural resources. If we want to import or export oil we so do,.we don't demand or grant free access to oilfields.

    Why would we need to grant access to our waters or demand access to others waters rather than simply trading the haddock, herring etc caught?
    Perhaps because there is no point catching fish if you can't actually sell them. Just a thought.
    Yes but you can sell your resources without giving away access to your natural resources. It's how it works in almost every other industry.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Colours of the world
    Brexit your life
    Every boy and every girl
    Brexit your life
    People of the world
    Brexit your life
    Aah
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    Actually the Brexiteers should be pretty pleased with the direction set out in today's document, as it is a little closer to their preferred 'Canada Plus' end-point than Chequers would have been.

    'Should' and 'will' are not the same thing, of course. They seem to have got themselves into a mindset of trashing everything even if it's exactly what they've been asking for. More fool them - if they are successful in their trashing, there are only two possible outcomes; either Brexit doesn't happen, or it happens in disaster, in both cases with the added danger of Corbyn.

    Although obviously not as strong as the WA, might the wish list be at least some leverage vis-a-vis the BA overstaying its welcome?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958

    Another thicko who thinks the 'Future Relationship' can be agreed let alone negotiated before we've left.....
    To be fair she has a point, but I'm not sure what choice the government had, faced with the EU's point-blank refusal to negotiate other than that way round.
    She conceded that point WAY. TOO. EARLY. It set the tone.

    Stare them down. As you plan for No Deal.

  • Actually the Brexiteers should be pretty pleased with the direction set out in today's document, as it is a little closer to their preferred 'Canada Plus' end-point than Chequers would have been.

    'Should' and 'will' are not the same thing, of course. They seem to have got themselves into a mindset of trashing everything even if it's exactly what they've been asking for. More fool them - if they are successful in their trashing, there are only two possible outcomes; either Brexit doesn't happen, or it happens in disaster, in both cases with the added danger of Corbyn.

    Agreed from what I've read so far this seems reasonable. How it goes from vague and positive waffle and into an enforced legal agreement will be the true test.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Bet365’s Denise Coates pays herself £265m while one in 200 people are homeless: no wonder the country is so unhappy

    Polly Toynbee"

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/22/angry-england-desires-change-inequality-brussels-bet365-denise-coates
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Colours of the world
    Brexit your life
    Every boy and every girl
    Brexit your life
    People of the world
    Brexit your life
    Aah

    Brexit, shake it, Brexit, make it, who do you think you are?
    Brexit, use it, Brexit, groove it, show me how good you are.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    For those few people who are actually interested in the facts, this is a good source:

    https://twitter.com/remkorteweg/status/1065173307769700353

    Can anyone please explain to me why access to waters and access to markets need be linked?

    We can both export and import goods without requiring or being able to get the other nations natural resources. If we want to import or export oil we so do,.we don't demand or grant free access to oilfields.

    Why would we need to grant access to our waters or demand access to others waters rather than simply trading the haddock, herring etc caught?
    Perhaps because there is no point catching fish if you can't actually sell them. Just a thought.
    I just had a Marie Antoinette moment.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    What May has done, regardless of whether her dodgy deal, via a mixture of threats, weaponised pity and blind luck, gets through Parliament, is ensuring that the watchword of her party activists, backbenchers and leave voters is going to be _betrayal_.

    That's what May will be remembered for. Fostering a betrayal narrative that will drive the next political cycle in the UK.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Anorak said:

    Anorak said:

    but he KNOWS what we really, really want

    A zigga zig ah?
    or a zigga zig nah
    The Spice Girls were the Nostradamus of Brexit. Here they are cryptically describing the ERG position:

    You want my future
    Forget my past
    If you wanna get with me
    Better make it fast
    Now don't go wasting
    My precious time
    Get your act together we could be just fine


    Spooky.
    Did they write the lyrics - not sure just singing them counts
  • Another thicko who thinks the 'Future Relationship' can be agreed let alone negotiated before we've left.....
    To be fair she has a point, but I'm not sure what choice the government had, faced with the EU's point-blank refusal to negotiate other than that way round.
    Article 50 sets out that the withdrawal agreement should : tak[e into] account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union

    And given the Article 50 24 month timeline the chances of negotiating that future relationship would be slim to say the least.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Don't worry the erstwhile Dr Fox is going to negotiate plenty of deals during the transition period.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Most commonly used word by Tory MPs describing May's deal?

    "Surrender"

    https://twitter.com/BBCNormanS/status/1065607801953763328
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,850
    edited November 2018
    deleted
  • Another thicko who thinks the 'Future Relationship' can be agreed let alone negotiated before we've left.....
    To be fair she has a point, but I'm not sure what choice the government had, faced with the EU's point-blank refusal to negotiate other than that way round.
    She conceded that point WAY. TOO. EARLY.
    It was in Article 50. Agreed on Brown's watch.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    AndyJS said:

    "Bet365’s Denise Coates pays herself £265m while one in 200 people are homeless: no wonder the country is so unhappy

    Polly Toynbee"

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/22/angry-england-desires-change-inequality-brussels-bet365-denise-coates

    Polly must have her maths wrong. 320,000 homeless is not "1 in 20" of Britain's population.
    It says 1 in 200
  • Actually the Brexiteers should be pretty pleased with the direction set out in today's document, as it is a little closer to their preferred 'Canada Plus' end-point than Chequers would have been.

    'Should' and 'will' are not the same thing, of course. They seem to have got themselves into a mindset of trashing everything even if it's exactly what they've been asking for. More fool them - if they are successful in their trashing, there are only two possible outcomes; either Brexit doesn't happen, or it happens in disaster, in both cases with the added danger of Corbyn.

    Agreed from what I've read so far this seems reasonable. How it goes from vague and positive waffle and into an enforced legal agreement will be the true test.
    The only way it can ever work well is for the negotiations to be carried out in smoke-free rooms by faceless bureaucrats, out of the limelight and away from shrieks of 'Betrayal!' every time some half-truth is printed by journalists trying to big-up stories.

    I don't hold out great hope.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Anorak said:

    Anorak said:

    but he KNOWS what we really, really want

    A zigga zig ah?
    or a zigga zig nah
    The Spice Girls were the Nostradamus of Brexit. Here they are cryptically describing the ERG position:

    You want my future
    Forget my past
    If you wanna get with me
    Better make it fast
    Now don't go wasting
    My precious time
    Get your act together we could be just fine


    Spooky.
    Did they write the lyrics - not sure just singing them counts
    Think of it like a medium channeling the dead. They're not saying their own words, but they are still the vessel for that communication.
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,850

    AndyJS said:

    "Bet365’s Denise Coates pays herself £265m while one in 200 people are homeless: no wonder the country is so unhappy

    Polly Toynbee"

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/22/angry-england-desires-change-inequality-brussels-bet365-denise-coates

    Polly must have her maths wrong. 320,000 homeless is not "1 in 20" of Britain's population.
    It says 1 in 200
    Ooops, my bad.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    AndyJS said:

    "Bet365’s Denise Coates pays herself £265m while one in 200 people are homeless: no wonder the country is so unhappy

    Polly Toynbee"

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/22/angry-england-desires-change-inequality-brussels-bet365-denise-coates

    Poor deprived Polly
  • Most commonly used word by Tory MPs describing May's deal?

    "Surrender"

    https://twitter.com/BBCNormanS/status/1065607801953763328

    You're confusing 'hard Brexit MPs' with 'Tory MPs'.

    A mistake the ERG made spectacularly earlier this week.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Paging Nabavi, Big G, Carlotta

    Here are your "lies to take" for the rest of the day, fresh from the Maybunker.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DsnP6QVXgAESIKe.jpg
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    Most commonly used word by Tory MPs describing May's deal?

    "Surrender"

    https://twitter.com/BBCNormanS/status/1065607801953763328

    You're confusing 'hard Brexit MPs' with 'Tory MPs'.

    A mistake the ERG made spectacularly earlier this week.
    I don't think I am. If that were the case, we wouldn't be at 84 Tories declared against and counting.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Brexit in a coma, I know
    I know, it's serious
    My, my, my, my, my, my baby, goodbye
    There were times when I could
    Have strangled it
    But you know, I would hate
    Anything to happen to it
    Would you please
    Let me see it
    Do you really think
    It'll pull through
    Do you really think
    It'll pull through
    Do
    Let me whisper my last goodbyes
  • Most commonly used word by Tory MPs describing May's deal?

    "Surrender"

    https://twitter.com/BBCNormanS/status/1065607801953763328

    You're confusing 'hard Brexit MPs' with 'Tory MPs'.

    A mistake the ERG made spectacularly earlier this week.
    I don't think I am. If that were the case, we wouldn't be at 84 Tories declared against and counting.
    A bit like '48'........and counting?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958

    Another thicko who thinks the 'Future Relationship' can be agreed let alone negotiated before we've left.....
    To be fair she has a point, but I'm not sure what choice the government had, faced with the EU's point-blank refusal to negotiate other than that way round.
    She conceded that point WAY. TOO. EARLY.
    It was in Article 50. Agreed on Brown's watch.
    Ah, Gordon Brown. Just when you thought he'd finished fucking over the UK....
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Anorak said:

    Anorak said:

    Anorak said:

    but he KNOWS what we really, really want

    A zigga zig ah?
    or a zigga zig nah
    The Spice Girls were the Nostradamus of Brexit. Here they are cryptically describing the ERG position:

    You want my future
    Forget my past
    If you wanna get with me
    Better make it fast
    Now don't go wasting
    My precious time
    Get your act together we could be just fine


    Spooky.
    Did they write the lyrics - not sure just singing them counts
    Think of it like a medium channeling the dead. They're not saying their own words, but they are still the vessel for that communication.
    That's a step too far for me
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    For those few people who are actually interested in the facts, this is a good source:

    https://twitter.com/remkorteweg/status/1065173307769700353

    The UK fleet also catches/traps a shit-load of crab, lobster and shellfish (such as cockles and whelks) that have no market in the UK - despite us being an 'island nation' - and which get sent to markets in Europe.
    Singing cockles and mussels alive, alive’o *

    * until @NickPalmer bans it
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    edited November 2018

    Most commonly used word by Tory MPs describing May's deal?

    "Surrender"

    https://twitter.com/BBCNormanS/status/1065607801953763328

    You're confusing 'hard Brexit MPs' with 'Tory MPs'.

    A mistake the ERG made spectacularly earlier this week.
    I don't think I am. If that were the case, we wouldn't be at 84 Tories declared against and counting.
    A bit like '48'........and counting?
    No, not like that at all.

    Like Buzzfeed have actually compiled a list of all Tory MPs who have said in public they will vote against the deal.

    And that number is 84

    The list is here https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/here-are-all-the-tory-mps-who-have-indicated-so-far-that

    It's 85 now, but I'll guess it'll be higher by bedtime. Anna Soubry (that well known hard Brexiteer) came out against today.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    Most commonly used word by Tory MPs describing May's deal?

    "Surrender"

    https://twitter.com/BBCNormanS/status/1065607801953763328

    It's hard to misrepresent quotes (let's be charitable and assume that you're not deliberately lying) when you post the actual quote.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Another thicko who thinks the 'Future Relationship' can be agreed let alone negotiated before we've left.....
    To be fair she has a point, but I'm not sure what choice the government had, faced with the EU's point-blank refusal to negotiate other than that way round.
    She conceded that point WAY. TOO. EARLY.
    It was in Article 50. Agreed on Brown's watch.
    Ah, Gordon Brown. Just when you thought he'd finished fucking over the UK....
    The thought of G. Brown fucking anything has put me right off my pie and mash.
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    Pulpstar said:

    Don't worry the erstwhile Dr Fox is going to negotiate plenty of deals during the transition period.
    Has he been struck off??
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    May lied to your face, betrayed your constituents and now you're expected to go on TV, support the deeply problematic wording of the PD, and say "thank you Theresa please may I have another".

    Imagine how little dignity and self-respect you'd have to have to be a Scots Tory giving May a pass over this.

    Aside from Ross and David who've come out diametrically opposed, I think they're all awaiting orders from Ruthie.
    Who will fall in line.
    I think Ruth backs this, but lets see.
    It is hard to see how Nicola objects as it is as good as her Norway choice
    Have faith @Big_G_NorthWales

    She’ll find a way
  • Another thicko who thinks the 'Future Relationship' can be agreed let alone negotiated before we've left.....
    To be fair she has a point, but I'm not sure what choice the government had, faced with the EU's point-blank refusal to negotiate other than that way round.
    She conceded that point WAY. TOO. EARLY.
    It was in Article 50. Agreed on Brown's watch.
    Ah, Gordon Brown. Just when you thought he'd finished fucking over the UK....
    In fairness I don't think anyone at the time was giving serious consideration to a big country leaving - Article 50 was designed for a small recent joiner like Croatia or Slovenia opting out (0.3% EU GDP), not the EU's second biggest economy and 15% of its GDP.....
  • matt said:

    Most commonly used word by Tory MPs describing May's deal?

    "Surrender"

    https://twitter.com/BBCNormanS/status/1065607801953763328

    It's hard to misrepresent quotes (let's be charitable and assume that you're not deliberately lying) when you post the actual quote.
    LOL!!!! one-eyed commentary at it's best.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842


    The only way it can ever work well is for the negotiations to be carried out in smoke-free rooms by faceless bureaucrats, out of the limelight and away from shrieks of 'Betrayal!' every time some half-truth is printed by journalists trying to big-up stories.

    I don't hold out great hope.

    David Allen Green's point is a GREAT one, the most ardent previous supporters of Brexit seem to be those that are screaming the loudest about the realities of trade deals.
    Today has been another enlightening day into the mindset of the Brexiteer ultras.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    Pulpstar said:

    Don't worry the erstwhile Dr Fox is going to negotiate plenty of deals during the transition period.
    Has he been struck off??
    He wasn't even a real fox to begin with.

    Anyway, will you PLEASE give him his full title,

    "Disgraced national security risk and Secretary of State for negotiating non-existent trade deals Liam Fox"

    It's only polite.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Anorak said:

    Another thicko who thinks the 'Future Relationship' can be agreed let alone negotiated before we've left.....
    To be fair she has a point, but I'm not sure what choice the government had, faced with the EU's point-blank refusal to negotiate other than that way round.
    She conceded that point WAY. TOO. EARLY.
    It was in Article 50. Agreed on Brown's watch.
    Ah, Gordon Brown. Just when you thought he'd finished fucking over the UK....
    The thought of G. Brown fucking anything has put me right off my pie and mash.
    jellied eels and liquor tomorrow then
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958

    Another thicko who thinks the 'Future Relationship' can be agreed let alone negotiated before we've left.....
    To be fair she has a point, but I'm not sure what choice the government had, faced with the EU's point-blank refusal to negotiate other than that way round.
    She conceded that point WAY. TOO. EARLY.
    It was in Article 50. Agreed on Brown's watch.
    Ah, Gordon Brown. Just when you thought he'd finished fucking over the UK....
    In fairness I don't think anyone at the time was giving serious consideration to a big country leaving - Article 50 was designed for a small recent joiner like Croatia or Slovenia opting out (0.3% EU GDP), not the EU's second biggest economy and 15% of its GDP.....
    When drafting, you ALWAYS draft for "the scenario that won't happen". Because it's always the one that does, and is always the one that bites you in the arse.

    When drafting that clause, there should have only ever been one thought in Brown's head: "What if it is the UK that is leaving? How fucked would we be then?"
  • Pulpstar said:


    The only way it can ever work well is for the negotiations to be carried out in smoke-free rooms by faceless bureaucrats, out of the limelight and away from shrieks of 'Betrayal!' every time some half-truth is printed by journalists trying to big-up stories.

    I don't hold out great hope.

    David Allen Green's point is a GREAT one, the most ardent previous supporters of Brexit seem to be those that are screaming the loudest about the realities of trade deals.
    Today has been another enlightening day into the mindset of the Brexiteer ultras.
    I thought Rafael Behr's observation yesterday perfect:

    Theresa May is back in Brussels today, meeting Jean-Claude Juncker to hammer out details of the political declaration that will describe the longer-term relationship between Britain and the EU. It is a tricky, technical business that requires accommodating the interests of 28 countries. That affords May little room for manoeuvre. Inevitably, a section of the Tory party will hate the document. They hate it already, without having read it. And May cannot placate them because she is in the wrong place, very literally. The prime minister is trying to negotiate Britain’s exit from the EU in a real city on a real continent. She can’t do anything for MPs who want to escape the European demons inside their heads.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/21/bolshevik-hardline-brexiteers-rees-mogg-brussels-eu
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    Pulpstar said:

    Don't worry the erstwhile Dr Fox is going to negotiate plenty of deals during the transition period.
    Has he been struck off??
    He wasn't even a real fox to begin with.

    Anyway, will you PLEASE give him his full title,

    "Disgraced national security risk and Secretary of State for negotiating non-existent trade deals Liam Fox"

    It's only polite.
    A first for you?
  • Another thicko who thinks the 'Future Relationship' can be agreed let alone negotiated before we've left.....
    To be fair she has a point, but I'm not sure what choice the government had, faced with the EU's point-blank refusal to negotiate other than that way round.
    She conceded that point WAY. TOO. EARLY.
    It was in Article 50. Agreed on Brown's watch.
    Ah, Gordon Brown. Just when you thought he'd finished fucking over the UK....
    In fairness I don't think anyone at the time was giving serious consideration to a big country leaving - Article 50 was designed for a small recent joiner like Croatia or Slovenia opting out (0.3% EU GDP), not the EU's second biggest economy and 15% of its GDP.....
    When drafting, you ALWAYS draft for "the scenario that won't happen". Because it's always the one that does, and is always the one that bites you in the arse.

    When drafting that clause, there should have only ever been one thought in Brown's head: "What if it is the UK that is leaving? How fucked would we be then?"
    Perhaps he did. 'Ha! If the evil Tories ever take us out of the EU, that will really stuff them at the next election!'
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958

    Most commonly used word by Tory MPs describing May's deal?

    "Surrender"

    https://twitter.com/BBCNormanS/status/1065607801953763328

    Arlene won't be happy.....

    "NO Surrender!!!"
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    Pulpstar said:


    The only way it can ever work well is for the negotiations to be carried out in smoke-free rooms by faceless bureaucrats, out of the limelight and away from shrieks of 'Betrayal!' every time some half-truth is printed by journalists trying to big-up stories.

    I don't hold out great hope.

    David Allen Green's point is a GREAT one, the most ardent previous supporters of Brexit seem to be those that are screaming the loudest about the realities of trade deals.
    Today has been another enlightening day into the mindset of the Brexiteer ultras.
    I thought Rafael Behr's observation yesterday perfect:

    Theresa May is back in Brussels today, meeting Jean-Claude Juncker to hammer out details of the political declaration that will describe the longer-term relationship between Britain and the EU. It is a tricky, technical business that requires accommodating the interests of 28 countries. That affords May little room for manoeuvre. Inevitably, a section of the Tory party will hate the document. They hate it already, without having read it. And May cannot placate them because she is in the wrong place, very literally. The prime minister is trying to negotiate Britain’s exit from the EU in a real city on a real continent. She can’t do anything for MPs who want to escape the European demons inside their heads.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/21/bolshevik-hardline-brexiteers-rees-mogg-brussels-eu
    If the ERG rebel in the way they seem intent on doing so on the meaningful vote then I'm going to have to vote remain again in any potential second ref.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    Another thicko who thinks the 'Future Relationship' can be agreed let alone negotiated before we've left.....
    To be fair she has a point, but I'm not sure what choice the government had, faced with the EU's point-blank refusal to negotiate other than that way round.
    She conceded that point WAY. TOO. EARLY.
    It was in Article 50. Agreed on Brown's watch.
    Ah, Gordon Brown. Just when you thought he'd finished fucking over the UK....
    In fairness I don't think anyone at the time was giving serious consideration to a big country leaving - Article 50 was designed for a small recent joiner like Croatia or Slovenia opting out (0.3% EU GDP), not the EU's second biggest economy and 15% of its GDP.....
    When drafting, you ALWAYS draft for "the scenario that won't happen". Because it's always the one that does, and is always the one that bites you in the arse.

    When drafting that clause, there should have only ever been one thought in Brown's head: "What if it is the UK that is leaving? How fucked would we be then?"
    Perhaps he did. 'Ha! If the evil Tories ever take us out of the EU, that will really stuff them at the next election!'
    That would mean that Brown was as clever as he thought he was, though.
  • Most commonly used word by Tory MPs describing May's deal?

    "Surrender"

    https://twitter.com/BBCNormanS/status/1065607801953763328

    You're confusing 'hard Brexit MPs' with 'Tory MPs'.

    A mistake the ERG made spectacularly earlier this week.
    I don't think I am. If that were the case, we wouldn't be at 84 Tories declared against and counting.
    A bit like '48'........and counting?
    No, not like that at all.
    I think you'll find its exactly like that.

    The number of MPs who sound off to a reporter will be substantially greater than the number of MPs who go into the lobby with Jeremy Corbyn et al.
  • Pulpstar said:


    The only way it can ever work well is for the negotiations to be carried out in smoke-free rooms by faceless bureaucrats, out of the limelight and away from shrieks of 'Betrayal!' every time some half-truth is printed by journalists trying to big-up stories.

    I don't hold out great hope.

    David Allen Green's point is a GREAT one, the most ardent previous supporters of Brexit seem to be those that are screaming the loudest about the realities of trade deals.
    Today has been another enlightening day into the mindset of the Brexiteer ultras.
    I thought Rafael Behr's observation yesterday perfect:

    Theresa May is back in Brussels today, meeting Jean-Claude Juncker to hammer out details of the political declaration that will describe the longer-term relationship between Britain and the EU. It is a tricky, technical business that requires accommodating the interests of 28 countries. That affords May little room for manoeuvre. Inevitably, a section of the Tory party will hate the document. They hate it already, without having read it. And May cannot placate them because she is in the wrong place, very literally. The prime minister is trying to negotiate Britain’s exit from the EU in a real city on a real continent. She can’t do anything for MPs who want to escape the European demons inside their heads.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/21/bolshevik-hardline-brexiteers-rees-mogg-brussels-eu
    Thats perfect.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,547

    What May has done, regardless of whether her dodgy deal, via a mixture of threats, weaponised pity and blind luck, gets through Parliament, is ensuring that the watchword of her party activists, backbenchers and leave voters is going to be _betrayal_.

    That's what May will be remembered for. Fostering a betrayal narrative that will drive the next political cycle in the UK.

    ''Twas always going to be the case. May could not deliver on the Brexiteeer promises because no one could, they were always a fantasy. And it was inevitable that failure to deliver them would lead to the development of a betrayal narrative from those who refuse to acknowledge their responsibility for this monumental clusterf*uck.
  • Pulpstar said:


    The only way it can ever work well is for the negotiations to be carried out in smoke-free rooms by faceless bureaucrats, out of the limelight and away from shrieks of 'Betrayal!' every time some half-truth is printed by journalists trying to big-up stories.

    I don't hold out great hope.

    David Allen Green's point is a GREAT one, the most ardent previous supporters of Brexit seem to be those that are screaming the loudest about the realities of trade deals.
    Today has been another enlightening day into the mindset of the Brexiteer ultras.
    I thought Rafael Behr's observation yesterday perfect:

    Theresa May is back in Brussels today, meeting Jean-Claude Juncker to hammer out details of the political declaration that will describe the longer-term relationship between Britain and the EU. It is a tricky, technical business that requires accommodating the interests of 28 countries. That affords May little room for manoeuvre. Inevitably, a section of the Tory party will hate the document. They hate it already, without having read it. And May cannot placate them because she is in the wrong place, very literally. The prime minister is trying to negotiate Britain’s exit from the EU in a real city on a real continent. She can’t do anything for MPs who want to escape the European demons inside their heads.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/21/bolshevik-hardline-brexiteers-rees-mogg-brussels-eu
    So succinct and the HOC has to stop them getting their way either by voting for this deal or no brexit
  • Pulpstar said:

    If the ERG rebel in the way they seem intent on doing so on the meaningful vote then I'm going to have to vote remain again in any potential second ref.

    Yep, definitely. Conversely, if the choice were to reapply to Remain vs Leave with The Deal, I'd probably vote Leave, given that I don't think we can realistically go back to the status quo ante but post renegotiation.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    Most commonly used word by Tory MPs describing May's deal?

    "Surrender"

    https://twitter.com/BBCNormanS/status/1065607801953763328

    You're confusing 'hard Brexit MPs' with 'Tory MPs'.

    A mistake the ERG made spectacularly earlier this week.
    I don't think I am. If that were the case, we wouldn't be at 84 Tories declared against and counting.
    A bit like '48'........and counting?
    No, not like that at all.
    I think you'll find its exactly like that.

    The number of MPs who sound off to a reporter will be substantially greater than the number of MPs who go into the lobby with Jeremy Corbyn et al.
    They might be lying, of course, but these MPs have all stated, in public, their intention to vote against the deal.

    Let's assume that half of them are lying, that means No's majority is only 86 rather than 170.

    Sound reasonable?
  • For those few people who are actually interested in the facts, this is a good source:

    https://twitter.com/remkorteweg/status/1065173307769700353

    Can anyone please explain to me why access to waters and access to markets need be linked?

    We can both export and import goods without requiring or being able to get the other nations natural resources. If we want to import or export oil we so do,.we don't demand or grant free access to oilfields.

    Why would we need to grant access to our waters or demand access to others waters rather than simply trading the haddock, herring etc caught?
    Perhaps because there is no point catching fish if you can't actually sell them. Just a thought.
    Yes but you can sell your resources without giving away access to your natural resources. It's how it works in almost every other industry.
    That is the whole point of a negotiation.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:


    The only way it can ever work well is for the negotiations to be carried out in smoke-free rooms by faceless bureaucrats, out of the limelight and away from shrieks of 'Betrayal!' every time some half-truth is printed by journalists trying to big-up stories.

    I don't hold out great hope.

    David Allen Green's point is a GREAT one, the most ardent previous supporters of Brexit seem to be those that are screaming the loudest about the realities of trade deals.
    Today has been another enlightening day into the mindset of the Brexiteer ultras.
    I thought Rafael Behr's observation yesterday perfect:

    Theresa May is back in Brussels today, meeting Jean-Claude Juncker to hammer out details of the political declaration that will describe the longer-term relationship between Britain and the EU. It is a tricky, technical business that requires accommodating the interests of 28 countries. That affords May little room for manoeuvre. Inevitably, a section of the Tory party will hate the document. They hate it already, without having read it. And May cannot placate them because she is in the wrong place, very literally. The prime minister is trying to negotiate Britain’s exit from the EU in a real city on a real continent. She can’t do anything for MPs who want to escape the European demons inside their heads.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/21/bolshevik-hardline-brexiteers-rees-mogg-brussels-eu
    If the ERG rebel in the way they seem intent on doing so on the meaningful vote then I'm going to have to vote remain again in any potential second ref.
    And me and my wife
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    Most commonly used word by Tory MPs describing May's deal?

    "Surrender"

    https://twitter.com/BBCNormanS/status/1065607801953763328

    You're confusing 'hard Brexit MPs' with 'Tory MPs'.

    A mistake the ERG made spectacularly earlier this week.
    I don't think I am. If that were the case, we wouldn't be at 84 Tories declared against and counting.
    A bit like '48'........and counting?
    No, not like that at all.
    I think you'll find its exactly like that.

    The number of MPs who sound off to a reporter will be substantially greater than the number of MPs who go into the lobby with Jeremy Corbyn et al.
    inshallah
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958

    Most commonly used word by Tory MPs describing May's deal?

    "Surrender"

    https://twitter.com/BBCNormanS/status/1065607801953763328

    You're confusing 'hard Brexit MPs' with 'Tory MPs'.

    A mistake the ERG made spectacularly earlier this week.
    I don't think I am. If that were the case, we wouldn't be at 84 Tories declared against and counting.
    A bit like '48'........and counting?
    No, not like that at all.
    I think you'll find its exactly like that.

    The number of MPs who sound off to a reporter will be substantially greater than the number of MPs who go into the lobby with Jeremy Corbyn et al.
    The Leaver MPs will end up going through the lobby to approve the deal - with their fingers crossed behind their backs.

    Then set about dismantling it.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Isn't it funny how what was once a categoric lie (according to Mrs May) is now the truth?

    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1065611643948843009

    Mrs May has always been at war with Eurasia.
  • BoJo has no chance of becoming Tory Party leader because he has no leadership skills and is too divisive a character. JRM’s support is going to be irrelevant because the two have similar backgrounds. If the Tories ever decide that electoral suicide is not for them and finally get rid of May, her successor will need broad support and relevant policies on issues other than Brexit.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    edited November 2018


    Yep, definitely. Conversely, if the choice were to reapply to Remain vs Leave with The Deal, I'd probably vote Leave, given that I don't think we can realistically go back to the status quo ante but post renegotiation.

    No idea how I'd vote. Probably no deal, since as you say, the status quo is unrealistic, and May's deal is an unholy abomination from beyond the seven hells that will simply prolong the current civil war and betrayal narrative without end.

    Only the cold, hard misery, suffering and chaos of giving the people exactly what they wanted is going to cut it.
  • Another thicko who thinks the 'Future Relationship' can be agreed let alone negotiated before we've left.....
    To be fair she has a point, but I'm not sure what choice the government had, faced with the EU's point-blank refusal to negotiate other than that way round.
    She conceded that point WAY. TOO. EARLY.
    It was in Article 50. Agreed on Brown's watch.
    Ah, Gordon Brown. Just when you thought he'd finished fucking over the UK....
    In fairness I don't think anyone at the time was giving serious consideration to a big country leaving - Article 50 was designed for a small recent joiner like Croatia or Slovenia opting out (0.3% EU GDP), not the EU's second biggest economy and 15% of its GDP.....
    When drafting, you ALWAYS draft for "the scenario that won't happen". Because it's always the one that does, and is always the one that bites you in the arse.

    When drafting that clause, there should have only ever been one thought in Brown's head: "What if it is the UK that is leaving? How fucked would we be then?"
    Perhaps he did. 'Ha! If the evil Tories ever take us out of the EU, that will really stuff them at the next election!'
    They certainly have no chance of being elected if they abandon Brexit or go ahead with May’s BRINO
  • Another thicko who thinks the 'Future Relationship' can be agreed let alone negotiated before we've left.....
    To be fair she has a point, but I'm not sure what choice the government had, faced with the EU's point-blank refusal to negotiate other than that way round.
    She conceded that point WAY. TOO. EARLY.
    It was in Article 50. Agreed on Brown's watch.
    Ah, Gordon Brown. Just when you thought he'd finished fucking over the UK....
    In fairness I don't think anyone at the time was giving serious consideration to a big country leaving - Article 50 was designed for a small recent joiner like Croatia or Slovenia opting out (0.3% EU GDP), not the EU's second biggest economy and 15% of its GDP.....
    When drafting, you ALWAYS draft for "the scenario that won't happen". Because it's always the one that does, and is always the one that bites you in the arse.

    When drafting that clause, there should have only ever been one thought in Brown's head: "What if it is the UK that is leaving? How fucked would we be then?"
    Perhaps he did. 'Ha! If the evil Tories ever take us out of the EU, that will really stuff them at the next election!'
    They certainly have no chance of being elected if they abandon Brexit or go ahead with May’s BRINO
    On both these scenarios it will be a majority of mps across the house which will make it happen
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234


    They certainly have no chance of being elected if they abandon Brexit or go ahead with May’s BRINO

    Monday morning, Boris and JRM call a press conference to announce they're the new face of continuity remainerism and launch their campaign for the UK to join the Euro, Schengen area and pan-EU army.
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,545

    Most commonly used word by Tory MPs describing May's deal?

    "Surrender"

    https://twitter.com/BBCNormanS/status/1065607801953763328

    You're confusing 'hard Brexit MPs' with 'Tory MPs'.

    A mistake the ERG made spectacularly earlier this week.
    I don't think I am. If that were the case, we wouldn't be at 84 Tories declared against and counting.
    A bit like '48'........and counting?
    No, not like that at all.
    I think you'll find its exactly like that.

    The number of MPs who sound off to a reporter will be substantially greater than the number of MPs who go into the lobby with Jeremy Corbyn et al.
    The Leaver MPs will end up going through the lobby to approve the deal - with their fingers crossed behind their backs.

    Then set about dismantling it.
    That's where I think this ends up, as best guess.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:


    The only way it can ever work well is for the negotiations to be carried out in smoke-free rooms by faceless bureaucrats, out of the limelight and away from shrieks of 'Betrayal!' every time some half-truth is printed by journalists trying to big-up stories.

    I don't hold out great hope.

    David Allen Green's point is a GREAT one, the most ardent previous supporters of Brexit seem to be those that are screaming the loudest about the realities of trade deals.
    Today has been another enlightening day into the mindset of the Brexiteer ultras.
    I thought Rafael Behr's observation yesterday perfect:

    Theresa May is back in Brussels today, meeting Jean-Claude Juncker to hammer out details of the political declaration that will describe the longer-term relationship between Britain and the EU. It is a tricky, technical business that requires accommodating the interests of 28 countries. That affords May little room for manoeuvre. Inevitably, a section of the Tory party will hate the document. They hate it already, without having read it. And May cannot placate them because she is in the wrong place, very literally. The prime minister is trying to negotiate Britain’s exit from the EU in a real city on a real continent. She can’t do anything for MPs who want to escape the European demons inside their heads.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/21/bolshevik-hardline-brexiteers-rees-mogg-brussels-eu
    If the ERG rebel in the way they seem intent on doing so on the meaningful vote then I'm going to have to vote remain again in any potential second ref.
    And me and my wife
    So as you did in 2016 then....
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    In the real world:

    The UK’s red lines on fish have been protected.

    Dept of Environment statement.

    Hahahahahahaha

    Yeah no.

    May just agreed to allow the EU to hold the UK fishing industry as hostage during trade negotiations. May crossed a red line she promised not to last week. Did the very thing she promised to the cabinet's face not to do.

    And best of all, she got NOTHING in return.

    Good old May. At least she's consistent.
    I did not expect to say this but have you read that the Scottish Fishermans Federation backs it

    I would suggest they know a lot mofe about it than your constant anti TM mutterings
    Once again, Big G, I'd invited you to remove your gums from around whatever part of Theresa May they're currently clamped to, read the words of the PD with thine own eyes, engage your brain, and try to form your own opinion about why they seem to be diametrically opposed to what May was lying to us about last week, and seem suspiciously like exactly what Macron wanted.


    Do you think we'll get to 90 Tories declared against the deal today?

    May lying to her party about not linking trading and fishing gotta be worth a few more red votes against May?
    Ignoring my comment on my scots fishing connections then.

    Bet you were surprised when you read that I have a family connection going back generations to the Stotfield Fishing disaster on the 25th December 1806. You should look it up in Wiki, not as a political point scoring, but the effect it had on my wife's forebears
    We're currently at 84 Tories declared against.

    How many do you think we'll be at by bedtime?
    Have you looked up the Stotfield disaster

    As for numbers it is only the numbers on the day of the vote that count
    Yes, it is. So humour me, how many Tories do you think May's fishing theatrics today is going to add to the No column?

    Might be zero. What do you reckon?
    On the day I expect them to vote for the deal rather than risk the possibility of no change
    I thought No deal was better than a bad deal G
  • Pulpstar said:
    On, in the real world, everyone has to compromise.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited November 2018

    They certainly have no chance of being elected if they abandon Brexit or go ahead with May’s BRINO

    If Theresa May manages to get this through the party should be in an excellent position. She'll have delivered Brexit, which even sensible Remainers acknowledge is desirable given the referendum result. She'll have got an end to automatic freedom of movement, which was the principal motivation of Leave voters and a major concern for many Remain voters. We'll be out of the CAP and CFP. She'll have ended direct jurisdiction of the ECJ in UK domestic law, killed off 'ever closer union', and removed the impact of EU law on a range of domestic topics. At the same time she'll have avoided economic catastrophe and the disruption of a no-deal crash out.

    Of course, if the noisome ultras keep the party split and howl that all this progress - which is exactly what they campaigned for, almost word-for-word - as 'betrayal', then, yes, the party will be very severely damaged.

    I'm not optimistic. They seem to have gone raving mad in a destructive frenzy, trashing their success, after succeeding against the odds. A funny old world, indeed,
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    Another thicko who thinks the 'Future Relationship' can be agreed let alone negotiated before we've left.....
    To be fair she has a point, but I'm not sure what choice the government had, faced with the EU's point-blank refusal to negotiate other than that way round.
    Grow a pair perhaps
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    The good old "Didn't believe in unicorns hard enough" excuse
  • malcolmg said:

    In the real world:

    The UK’s red lines on fish have been protected.

    Dept of Environment statement.

    Hahahahahahaha

    Yeah no.

    May just agreed to allow the EU to hold the UK fishing industry as hostage during trade negotiations. May crossed a red line she promised not to last week. Did the very thing she promised to the cabinet's face not to do.

    And best of all, she got NOTHING in return.

    Good old May. At least she's consistent.
    I did not expect to say this but have you read that the Scottish Fishermans Federation backs it

    I would suggest they know a lot mofe about it than your constant anti TM mutterings
    Once again, Big G, I'd invited you to remove your gums from around whatever part of Theresa May they're currently clamped to, read the words of the PD with thine own eyes, engage your brain, and try to form your own opinion about why they seem to be diametrically opposed to what May was lying to us about last week, and seem suspiciously like exactly what Macron wanted.


    Do you think we'll get to 90 Tories declared against the deal today?

    May lying to her party about not linking trading and fishing gotta be worth a few more red votes against May?
    Ignoring my comment on my scots fishing connections then.

    Bet you were surprised when you read that I have a family connection going back generations to the Stotfield Fishing disaster on the 25th December 1806. You should look it up in Wiki, not as a political point scoring, but the effect it had on my wife's forebears
    We're currently at 84 Tories declared against.

    How many do you think we'll be at by bedtime?
    Have you looked up the Stotfield disaster

    As for numbers it is only the numbers on the day of the vote that count
    Yes, it is. So humour me, how many Tories do you think May's fishing theatrics today is going to add to the No column?

    Might be zero. What do you reckon?
    On the day I expect them to vote for the deal rather than risk the possibility of no change
    I thought No deal was better than a bad deal G
    Not anymore
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    They certainly have no chance of being elected if they abandon Brexit or go ahead with May’s BRINO

    If Theresa May manages to get this through the party should be in an excellent position.
    She'll have no majority, a party that thinks she's a traitor, a ticking timebomb to defuse, and the blame for every tiniest thing that goes wrong after Brexit day.

    Theresa May's name will be political poison to echo through the ages.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    They certainly have no chance of being elected if they abandon Brexit or go ahead with May’s BRINO

    If Theresa May manages to get this through the party should be in an excellent position. She'll have delivered Brexit, which even sensible Remainers acknowledge is desirable given the referendum result. She'll have got an end to automatic freedom of movement, which was the principal motivation of Leave voters and a major concern for many Remain voters. We'll be out of the CAP and CFP. She'll have ended direct jurisdiction of the ECJ in UK domestic law, killed off 'ever closer union', and removed the impact of EU law on a range of domestic topics. At the same time she'll have avoided economic catastrophe and the disruption of a no-deal crash out.

    Of course, if the noisome ultras keep the party split and howl that all this progress - which is exactly what they campaigned for, almost word-for-word - as 'betrayal', then, yes, the party will be very severely damaged.

    I'm not optimistic. They seem to have gone raving mad in a destructive frenzy, trashing their success, after succeeding against the odds. A funny old world, indeed,
    The ERG can't see the wood for the trees !
  • Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:


    The only way it can ever work well is for the negotiations to be carried out in smoke-free rooms by faceless bureaucrats, out of the limelight and away from shrieks of 'Betrayal!' every time some half-truth is printed by journalists trying to big-up stories.

    I don't hold out great hope.

    David Allen Green's point is a GREAT one, the most ardent previous supporters of Brexit seem to be those that are screaming the loudest about the realities of trade deals.
    Today has been another enlightening day into the mindset of the Brexiteer ultras.
    I thought Rafael Behr's observation yesterday perfect:

    Theresa May is back in Brussels today, meeting Jean-Claude Juncker to hammer out details of the political declaration that will describe the longer-term relationship between Britain and the EU. It is a tricky, technical business that requires accommodating the interests of 28 countries. That affords May little room for manoeuvre. Inevitably, a section of the Tory party will hate the document. They hate it already, without having read it. And May cannot placate them because she is in the wrong place, very literally. The prime minister is trying to negotiate Britain’s exit from the EU in a real city on a real continent. She can’t do anything for MPs who want to escape the European demons inside their heads.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/21/bolshevik-hardline-brexiteers-rees-mogg-brussels-eu
    If the ERG rebel in the way they seem intent on doing so on the meaningful vote then I'm going to have to vote remain again in any potential second ref.
    And me and my wife
    So as you did in 2016 then....
    That is a cheap shot.

    I have accepted the vote and backed TM deal all the way. I rejected the ultras the day Boris told Airbus to FO and I will fight ERG no deal all the way
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234



    Not anymore

    Good for you, Big G. Consistently is overrated, Theresa May's word is law, and we wouldn't want anyone to worry that you'd started to think for yourself, heaven forbid.

  • Pulpstar said:

    The good old "Didn't believe in unicorns hard enough" excuse
    The number of dissident Conservative MPs is going up rather than down at present. If the government has a strategy for getting the sheep back in the pen, it needs to start sending the collies out sooner rather than later.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    Pulpstar said:

    The good old "Didn't believe in unicorns hard enough" excuse
    The number of dissident Conservative MPs is going up rather than down at present. If the government has a strategy for getting the sheep back in the pen, it needs to start sending the collies out sooner rather than later.
    "The beatings will continue till morale improves" school of Whippery.
  • Pulpstar said:

    The good old "Didn't believe in unicorns hard enough" excuse
    The number of dissident Conservative MPs is going up rather than down at present. If the government has a strategy for getting the sheep back in the pen, it needs to start sending the collies out sooner rather than later.
    Unfortunately it's more like herding cats than herding sheep.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
    edited November 2018
    Pulpstar said:

    The good old "Didn't believe in unicorns hard enough" excuse
    This belief meme is the most embarrassing thing to me as a tory (albeit Clarke-ite wing)... it's the other lot in Labour who are supposed to have pie-in-the-sky ambitions that don't meet reality and aren't affordable... but EU makes the Brexiteers go cat-nip crazy.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    malcolmg said:

    In the real world:

    The UK’s red lines on fish have been protected.

    Dept of Environment statement.

    Hahahahahahaha

    Yeah no.

    May just agreed to allow the EU to hold the UK fishing industry as hostage during trade negotiations. May crossed a red line she promised not to last week. Did the very thing she promised to the cabinet's face not to do.

    And best of all, she got NOTHING in return.

    Good old May. At least she's consistent.
    I did not expect to say this but have you read that the Scottish Fishermans Federation backs it

    I would suggest they know a lot mofe about it than your constant anti TM mutterings
    Once again, Big G, I'd invited you to remove your gums from around whatever part of Theresa May they're currently clamped to, read the words of the PD with thine own eyes, engage your brain, and try to form your own opinion about why they seem to be diametrically opposed to what May was lying to us about last week, and seem suspiciously like exactly what Macron wanted.


    Do you think we'll get to 90 Tories declared against the deal today?

    May lying to her party about not linking trading and fishing gotta be worth a few more red votes against May?
    Ignoring my comment on my scots fishing connections then.

    Bet you were surprised when you read that I have a family connection going back generations to the Stotfield Fishing disaster on the 25th December 1806. You should look it up in Wiki, not as a political point scoring, but the effect it had on my wife's forebears
    We're currently at 84 Tories declared against.

    How many do you think we'll be at by bedtime?
    Have you looked up the Stotfield disaster

    As for numbers it is only the numbers on the day of the vote that count
    Yes, it is. So humour me, how many Tories do you think May's fishing theatrics today is going to add to the No column?

    Might be zero. What do you reckon?
    On the day I expect them to vote for the deal rather than risk the possibility of no change
    I thought No deal was better than a bad deal G
    Not anymore
    G, that is typical Tory for you , they just change their principles if they are struggling, desperate days. Hopefully Scotland will be out of it.


  • Not anymore

    Good for you, Big G. Consistently is overrated, Theresa May's word is law, and we wouldn't want anyone to worry that you'd started to think for yourself, heaven forbid.

    Insulting me personally is a new low for you
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:


    The only way it can ever work well is for the negotiations to be carried out in smoke-free rooms by faceless bureaucrats, out of the limelight and away from shrieks of 'Betrayal!' every time some half-truth is printed by journalists trying to big-up stories.

    I don't hold out great hope.

    David Allen Green's point is a GREAT one, the most ardent previous supporters of Brexit seem to be those that are screaming the loudest about the realities of trade deals.
    Today has been another enlightening day into the mindset of the Brexiteer ultras.
    I thought Rafael Behr's observation yesterday perfect:

    Theresa May is back in Brussels today, meeting Jean-Claude Juncker to hammer out details of the political declaration that will describe the longer-term relationship between Britain and the EU. It is a tricky, technical business that requires accommodating the interests of 28 countries. That affords May little room for manoeuvre. Inevitably, a section of the Tory party will hate the document. They hate it already, without having read it. And May cannot placate them because she is in the wrong place, very literally. The prime minister is trying to negotiate Britain’s exit from the EU in a real city on a real continent. She can’t do anything for MPs who want to escape the European demons inside their heads.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/21/bolshevik-hardline-brexiteers-rees-mogg-brussels-eu
    If the ERG rebel in the way they seem intent on doing so on the meaningful vote then I'm going to have to vote remain again in any potential second ref.
    And me and my wife
    So as you did in 2016 then....
    That is a cheap shot.

    I have accepted the vote and backed TM deal all the way. I rejected the ultras the day Boris told Airbus to FO and I will fight ERG no deal all the way
    It's not a cheap shot - just making the point that it changes none of the numbers from 2016.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:


    The only way it can ever work well is for the negotiations to be carried out in smoke-free rooms by faceless bureaucrats, out of the limelight and away from shrieks of 'Betrayal!' every time some half-truth is printed by journalists trying to big-up stories.

    I don't hold out great hope.

    David Allen Green's point is a GREAT one, the most ardent previous supporters of Brexit seem to be those that are screaming the loudest about the realities of trade deals.
    Today has been another enlightening day into the mindset of the Brexiteer ultras.
    I thought Rafael Behr's observation yesterday perfect:

    Theresa May is back in Brussels today, meeting Jean-Claude Juncker to hammer out details of the political declaration that will describe the longer-term relationship between Britain and the EU. It is a tricky, technical business that requires accommodating the interests of 28 countries. That affords May little room for manoeuvre. Inevitably, a section of the Tory party will hate the document. They hate it already, without having read it. And May cannot placate them because she is in the wrong place, very literally. The prime minister is trying to negotiate Britain’s exit from the EU in a real city on a real continent. She can’t do anything for MPs who want to escape the European demons inside their heads.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/21/bolshevik-hardline-brexiteers-rees-mogg-brussels-eu
    If the ERG rebel in the way they seem intent on doing so on the meaningful vote then I'm going to have to vote remain again in any potential second ref.
    And me and my wife
    How I would vote in a second referendum would depend what the question was.
  • AmpfieldAndyAmpfieldAndy Posts: 1,445
    edited November 2018

    They certainly have no chance of being elected if they abandon Brexit or go ahead with May’s BRINO

    If Theresa May manages to get this through the party should be in an excellent position. She'll have delivered Brexit, which even sensible Remainers acknowledge is desirable given the referendum result. She'll have got an end to automatic freedom of movement, which was the principal motivation of Leave voters and a major concern for many Remain voters. We'll be out of the CAP and CFP. She'll have ended direct jurisdiction of the ECJ in UK domestic law, killed off 'ever closer union', and removed the impact of EU law on a range of domestic topics. At the same time she'll have avoided economic catastrophe and the disruption of a no-deal crash out.

    Of course, if the noisome ultras keep the party split and howl that all this progress - which is exactly what they campaigned for, almost word-for-word - as 'betrayal', then, yes, the party will be very severely damaged.

    I'm not optimistic. They seem to have gone raving mad in a destructive frenzy, trashing their success, after succeeding against the odds. A funny old world, indeed,
    I don’t think you can claim any of those for May’s deal. “Ending freedom of movement” is just semantics until we know what happens to immigration and immigration policy post any deal being concluded. We don’t. Similarly, the CFP where fishing rights under the “political statement” have yet to be negotiated. Same with the CAP if we keep EU regs and subsidies to farmers. The extent to which the ECJ will continue to be the final arbiter on U.K. legal cases is also unknown as yet.

    May’s agreement seems to give the EU what the want. What it gives Britain is distinctly unclear.

    Rabid Tory europhiles like Soubry and Greening are going to be as upset as Brexiteers such as Bone and JRM so the prospects for party unity are pretty non existent.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234



    Not anymore

    Good for you, Big G. Consistently is overrated, Theresa May's word is law, and we wouldn't want anyone to worry that you'd started to think for yourself, heaven forbid.

    Insulting me personally is a new low for you
    Nah it isn't, I've been doing it for ages.
  • Pulpstar said:

    The good old "Didn't believe in unicorns hard enough" excuse
    The number of dissident Conservative MPs is going up rather than down at present. If the government has a strategy for getting the sheep back in the pen, it needs to start sending the collies out sooner rather than later.
    Unfortunately it's more like herding cats than herding sheep.
    I do remember someone once suggesting that meetings of the 1922 Committee were like the bar scene in Star Wars.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:


    The only way it can ever work well is for the negotiations to be carried out in smoke-free rooms by faceless bureaucrats, out of the limelight and away from shrieks of 'Betrayal!' every time some half-truth is printed by journalists trying to big-up stories.

    I don't hold out great hope.

    David Allen Green's point is a GREAT one, the most ardent previous supporters of Brexit seem to be those that are screaming the loudest about the realities of trade deals.
    Today has been another enlightening day into the mindset of the Brexiteer ultras.
    I thought Rafael Behr's observation yesterday perfect:

    Theresa May is back in Brussels today, meeting Jean-Claude Juncker to hammer out details of the political declaration that will describe the longer-term relationship between Britain and the EU. It is a tricky, technical business that requires accommodating the interests of 28 countries. That affords May little room for manoeuvre. Inevitably, a section of the Tory party will hate the document. They hate it already, without having read it. And May cannot placate them because she is in the wrong place, very literally. The prime minister is trying to negotiate Britain’s exit from the EU in a real city on a real continent. She can’t do anything for MPs who want to escape the European demons inside their heads.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/21/bolshevik-hardline-brexiteers-rees-mogg-brussels-eu
    If the ERG rebel in the way they seem intent on doing so on the meaningful vote then I'm going to have to vote remain again in any potential second ref.
    And me and my wife
    So as you did in 2016 then....
    That is a cheap shot.

    I have accepted the vote and backed TM deal all the way. I rejected the ultras the day Boris told Airbus to FO and I will fight ERG no deal all the way
    It's not a cheap shot - just making the point that it changes none of the numbers from 2016.
    No - you were inferring I was never pro leave which all my posts have rejecting in supporting TM deal
  • They certainly have no chance of being elected if they abandon Brexit or go ahead with May’s BRINO

    If Theresa May manages to get this through the party should be in an excellent position. She'll have delivered Brexit, which even sensible Remainers acknowledge is desirable given the referendum result. She'll have got an end to automatic freedom of movement, which was the principal motivation of Leave voters and a major concern for many Remain voters. We'll be out of the CAP and CFP. She'll have ended direct jurisdiction of the ECJ in UK domestic law, killed off 'ever closer union', and removed the impact of EU law on a range of domestic topics. At the same time she'll have avoided economic catastrophe and the disruption of a no-deal crash out.

    Of course, if the noisome ultras keep the party split and howl that all this progress - which is exactly what they campaigned for, almost word-for-word - as 'betrayal', then, yes, the party will be very severely damaged.

    I'm not optimistic. They seem to have gone raving mad in a destructive frenzy, trashing their success, after succeeding against the odds. A funny old world, indeed,
    I don’t think you can claim any of those for May’s deal. “Ending freedom of movement” is just semantics until we know what happens to immigration and immigration policy post any deal being concluded. We don’t. Similarly, the CFP where fishing rights under the “political statement” have yet to be negotiated. Same with the CAP if we keep EU regs and subsidies to farmers. The extent to which the ECJ will continue to be the final arbiter on U.K. legal cases is also unknown as yet.

    May’s agreement seems to give the EU what the want. What it gives Britain is distinctly unclear.

    Rabid Tory europhiles like Soubry and Greening are going to be as upset as Brexiteers such as Bone and JRM so the prospects for party unity are pretty non existent.
    But that was always going to be the case. The EU was never going to set up a fully functioning free-trade agreement until the Withdrawal Argeement was done and in place.

  • Jeremy doing his best to help TMay.
  • Corbyn is ridiculous. Just so sad labour hasn't got a statesman to lead it
This discussion has been closed.