Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The deal splits the Tories whilst a referendum would split LAB

12357

Comments

  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    edited November 2018
    Pulpstar said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    @DavidL - some Brexiteers have changed their minds, and think we should remain. They do not have the courage to admit this publicly, so they will vote against the deal claiming that it is an insufficiently hard Brexit.

    I am utterly convinced.

    If you want to go down that route, then Raab's your man in the leadership contest.
    I think Raab definitely falls into this category. It’s very difficult to respect someone who chooses this course of action over honesty.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,520
    The Galileo project cost the UK government £1 billion, and we won't be able to access it after Brexit.

    (I daresay it is more complex than that, with much of the project's money being spent with UK companies that developed much of the tech and built much of the hardware.)

    https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/11/23/galileo/
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited November 2018
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    I see the Swiss are having another important referendum. Now thats what I call democracy...

    https://twitter.com/WSJ/status/1066047507925557248?s=19

    They seem to have a referendum every other week in Switzerland.
    Perhap it is time for another one here too :)
    I propose one on if the Cheese Rolling event should be allowed* by the authorities.

    * In recent years, it is technically banned / roads blocked for miles around, but they can't stop the idiots turning up and running down the hill.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    HYUFD said:

    Just pause for a second.

    Why on Earth is the DUP's threat not as originally reported, i.e. if May puts it to a vote? That would make 10x as much sense as if it is passed.

    No, I don't think so. They don't actually want to bring down the government. They want to stop the WA, and replace May with a Brexiteer with whom they can continue their comfy little C&S love in for a few more years.

    Consider the threat to take away May's majority a kind of... backstop.
    Except well over 200 Tory MPs back May's Deal and indeed with Yougov this week the Tories have a clear lead.
    With Yougov the public also opposes the deal.

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1066049396373184513
    Oof, still horrid numbers.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    Mortimer said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mortimer said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DUP announce that the confidence and supply agreement will cease to apply if May brings the withdrawal agreement to a vote.

    They don't fuck about do they :). Do you have a link to that, I mean I know its been very much implied to now but...
    https://twitter.com/JohnJMcGivern/status/1066034085313814529
    So passed, rather, than brought to a vote.
    Isn't it a bit late if it is passed for them ?
    Can anyone say 'empty threat'?

    Sounds to me that they want the deal passed without their tacit support.
    There is an awful lot of "virtue signalling" going on.

    Everyone wants to prove their Eurosceptic credentials - especially if there's a leadership election coming up - but they mostly secretly fear the consequence of a No Deal Brexit, and what it would mean for themselves and the country.

    The whole thing is rather depressing.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688
    edited November 2018

    The Galileo project cost the UK government £1 billion, and we won't be able to access it after Brexit.

    (I daresay it is more complex than that, with much of the project's money being spent with UK companies that developed much of the tech and built much of the hardware.)

    https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/11/23/galileo/

    We may not be able to help(!) bail out Italy too.

    Brexit on any plan is a disaster, but it's a disaster with a good (ish) final outcome. This has been obvious from the start.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited November 2018

    The Galileo project cost the UK government £1 billion, and we won't be able to access it after Brexit.

    (I daresay it is more complex than that, with much of the project's money being spent with UK companies that developed much of the tech and built much of the hardware.)

    https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/11/23/galileo/

    Surprised they didn't take the approach as they have with the intelligence sharing database, and just charge a fee.

    However, when it comes to the intelligence sharing, the UK provide the bulk of the info, so May has signed up to continuing to providing all this data and now paying a fee on top. Brilliant negotiations.

    Not so much leaving a golf club and asking to continue to play there for a reduced rate, more owning and maintaining the golf club and then agreeing now to pay to use your own course.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    The Galileo project cost the UK government £1 billion, and we won't be able to access it after Brexit.

    (I daresay it is more complex than that, with much of the project's money being spent with UK companies that developed much of the tech and built much of the hardware.)

    https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/11/23/galileo/

    Always an ERG ready for a daft suggestion Sir William Cash piled in, suggesting that the UK could simply knock the Galileo £1bn off the eventual divorce bill.
  • NormNorm Posts: 1,251
    Most people don't read or understand the deal. They take their lead from their political heroes. Hence the need for TM to "convert" some leading Brexiteer figures.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,071

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    I see the Swiss are having another important referendum. Now thats what I call democracy...

    https://twitter.com/WSJ/status/1066047507925557248?s=19

    They seem to have a referendum every other week in Switzerland.
    Perhap it is time for another one here too :)
    I propose one on if the Cheese Rolling event should be allowed* by the authorities.

    * In recent years, it is technically banned / roads blocked for miles around, but they can't stop the idiots turning up and running down the hill.
    I demand another one on voting systems, the only subject guaranteed to raise more interest than Brexit.
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    I see the Swiss are having another important referendum. Now thats what I call democracy...

    https://twitter.com/WSJ/status/1066047507925557248?s=19

    They seem to have a referendum every other week in Switzerland.
    Perhap it is time for another one here too :)
    I propose one on if the Cheese Rolling event should be allowed* by the authorities.

    * In recent years, it is technically banned / roads blocked for miles around, but they can't stop the idiots turning up and running down the hill.
    I demand another one on voting systems, the only subject guaranteed to raise more interest than Brexit.
    Not very in keeping with the the biweekly Swiss votes, far too serious.
  • Pulpstar said:

    TM will not be blackmailed by the DUP

    If they bring the government down GE it is, no one billion for them and no influence post GE

    They might have some influence post GE, the general Labour/Tory numbers are very tight still.
    If my party bows to threats from the DUP to influence the election of my leader I will fight them even if they brimg the government down. I do not belong in the ERG/UKIP/ DUP party
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    rcs1000 said:

    Mortimer said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mortimer said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DUP announce that the confidence and supply agreement will cease to apply if May brings the withdrawal agreement to a vote.

    They don't fuck about do they :). Do you have a link to that, I mean I know its been very much implied to now but...
    https://twitter.com/JohnJMcGivern/status/1066034085313814529
    So passed, rather, than brought to a vote.
    Isn't it a bit late if it is passed for them ?
    Can anyone say 'empty threat'?

    Sounds to me that they want the deal passed without their tacit support.
    There is an awful lot of "virtue signalling" going on.

    Everyone wants to prove their Eurosceptic credentials - especially if there's a leadership election coming up - but they mostly secretly fear the consequence of a No Deal Brexit, and what it would mean for themselves and the country.

    The whole thing is rather depressing.
    The amusing part is Corbyn's WA would look so almost completely identical to May's !
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Scott_P said:
    I can't interpret that quote by Abbott as being particularly remainery, contrary to Rentoul.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_P said:
    I can't interpret that quote by Abbott as being particularly remainery, contrary to Rentoul.
    Abbot has no idea what her position is on anything. It would be dangerous for her to express an opinion about anything.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    edited November 2018
    Pulpstar said:
    That's insane: that means they were able to find at least 50 LibDem voters.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,401

    Met Police scooter crash video released as IOPC investigates

    However, the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) said it is investigating three cases involving "tactical contact" by Met police cars on scooters.

    According to the IOPC, one of the cases being investigated involved a 17-year-old boy who suffered head injuries a year ago in Bexley.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-46321720

    I imagine that the poor lamb was just rushing home to do his homework.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_P said:
    I can't interpret that quote by Abbott as being particularly remainery, contrary to Rentoul.
    No, but Abbott is generally considered to be one of the genuinely pro-Remain people on the Labour front bench, particularly of those close to Corbyn.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    The Galileo project cost the UK government £1 billion, and we won't be able to access it after Brexit.

    (I daresay it is more complex than that, with much of the project's money being spent with UK companies that developed much of the tech and built much of the hardware.)

    https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/11/23/galileo/

    Surprised they didn't take the approach as they have with the intelligence sharing database, and just charge a fee.

    However, when it comes to the intelligence sharing, the UK provide the bulk of the info, so May has signed up to continuing to providing all this data and now paying a fee on top. Brilliant negotiations.

    Not so much leaving a golf club and asking to continue to play there for a reduced rate, more owning and maintaining the golf club and then agreeing now to pay to use your own course.
    I doubt its true.. We have a lot of levers we can pull.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    rcs1000 said:

    Mortimer said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mortimer said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DUP announce that the confidence and supply agreement will cease to apply if May brings the withdrawal agreement to a vote.

    They don't fuck about do they :). Do you have a link to that, I mean I know its been very much implied to now but...
    https://twitter.com/JohnJMcGivern/status/1066034085313814529
    So passed, rather, than brought to a vote.
    Isn't it a bit late if it is passed for them ?
    Can anyone say 'empty threat'?

    Sounds to me that they want the deal passed without their tacit support.
    There is an awful lot of "virtue signalling" going on.

    Everyone wants to prove their Eurosceptic credentials - especially if there's a leadership election coming up - but they mostly secretly fear the consequence of a No Deal Brexit, and what it would mean for themselves and the country.

    The whole thing is rather depressing.
    Indeed. Very unhelpful
  • Gongs for votes? Speculation on knighthoods for MPs who vote the right way.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/11/23/theresa-may-accused-cronyism-handing-knighthood-brexit-backing/
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,720

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    I see the Swiss are having another important referendum. Now thats what I call democracy...

    https://twitter.com/WSJ/status/1066047507925557248?s=19

    They seem to have a referendum every other week in Switzerland.
    Perhap it is time for another one here too :)
    I propose one on if the Cheese Rolling event should be allowed* by the authorities.

    * In recent years, it is technically banned / roads blocked for miles around, but they can't stop the idiots turning up and running down the hill.
    It's tradition, innit?
  • The Galileo project cost the UK government £1 billion, and we won't be able to access it after Brexit.

    (I daresay it is more complex than that, with much of the project's money being spent with UK companies that developed much of the tech and built much of the hardware.)

    https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/11/23/galileo/

    Surprised they didn't take the approach as they have with the intelligence sharing database, and just charge a fee.

    However, when it comes to the intelligence sharing, the UK provide the bulk of the info, so May has signed up to continuing to providing all this data and now paying a fee on top. Brilliant negotiations.

    Not so much leaving a golf club and asking to continue to play there for a reduced rate, more owning and maintaining the golf club and then agreeing now to pay to use your own course.
    President Trump?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774

    Foxy said:

    I see the Swiss are having another important referendum. Now thats what I call democracy...

    https://twitter.com/WSJ/status/1066047507925557248?s=19

    They seem to have a referendum every other week in Switzerland.
    I think they have referendum days every quarter, where people will vote on 20 or 30 different measures.
  • NormNorm Posts: 1,251
    Incidentally re Mike's wager on a 2nd ref - if the referendum is deal v no deal with no option to remain as Trevor Phillips suggested on QT last night does he get his payout?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688

    Gongs for votes? Speculation on knighthoods for MPs who vote the right way.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/11/23/theresa-may-accused-cronyism-handing-knighthood-brexit-backing/

    Poor old Telegraph.

    A single instance of something and speculation really shouldn't be published.

    Journalism can be such a great thing, and somehow it's slipping away. (I may be misinterpreting this particular situation, but there's a theme)
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    Pulpstar said:

    TM will not be blackmailed by the DUP

    If they bring the government down GE it is, no one billion for them and no influence post GE

    They might have some influence post GE, the general Labour/Tory numbers are very tight still.
    If my party bows to threats from the DUP to influence the election of my leader I will fight them even if they brimg the government down. I do not belong in the ERG/UKIP/ DUP party
    We’re not going to do that.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    edited November 2018
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Just pause for a second.

    Why on Earth is the DUP's threat not as originally reported, i.e. if May puts it to a vote? That would make 10x as much sense as if it is passed.

    No, I don't think so. They don't actually want to bring down the government. They want to stop the WA, and replace May with a Brexiteer with whom they can continue their comfy little C&S love in for a few more years.

    Consider the threat to take away May's majority a kind of... backstop.
    Except well over 200 Tory MPs back May's Deal and indeed with Yougov this week the Tories have a clear lead.
    With Yougov the public also opposes the deal.

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1066049396373184513
    Oof, still horrid numbers.
    23 remain 22 hard brexit 23 deal would reflect the country

    It is called deadlock

    And some maintain they know how another referendum would pan out and the questions
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited November 2018

    HYUFD said:

    Just pause for a second.

    Why on Earth is the DUP's threat not as originally reported, i.e. if May puts it to a vote? That would make 10x as much sense as if it is passed.

    No, I don't think so. They don't actually want to bring down the government. They want to stop the WA, and replace May with a Brexiteer with whom they can continue their comfy little C&S love in for a few more years.

    Consider the threat to take away May's majority a kind of... backstop.
    Except well over 200 Tory MPs back May's Deal and indeed with Yougov this week the Tories have a clear lead.
    With Yougov the public also opposes the deal.

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1066049396373184513
    Wrong. Put Deal up against No Deal and Deal wins with 34% to 27% for No Deal with Ashcroft's poll today. That is the ONLY choice that matters if Brexit is to continue


    https://t.co/HGi1Sru0T3?amp=1


    Tory voters are split 35% for the Deal 35% for No Deal.

    Labour voters back the Deal 35% to 24% for No Deal.

    A huge 53% of LDs back May's Deal over just 11% for No Deal
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,401
    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    I see the Swiss are having another important referendum. Now thats what I call democracy...

    https://twitter.com/WSJ/status/1066047507925557248?s=19

    They seem to have a referendum every other week in Switzerland.
    I think they have referendum days every quarter, where people will vote on 20 or 30 different measures.
    Lucky blighters.
  • The funny thing is that the hated backstop is pretty much Norway/EEA but with better access and no fees!

    No it isn't. Norway are not in a Customs Union with the EU. And their single market access is miles better than the backstop.
  • kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Just pause for a second.

    Why on Earth is the DUP's threat not as originally reported, i.e. if May puts it to a vote? That would make 10x as much sense as if it is passed.

    No, I don't think so. They don't actually want to bring down the government. They want to stop the WA, and replace May with a Brexiteer with whom they can continue their comfy little C&S love in for a few more years.

    Consider the threat to take away May's majority a kind of... backstop.
    Except well over 200 Tory MPs back May's Deal and indeed with Yougov this week the Tories have a clear lead.
    With Yougov the public also opposes the deal.

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1066049396373184513
    Oof, still horrid numbers.
    23 remain 22 hard brexit 23 deal would reflect the country

    It is called deadlock
    To be far, 14% in five days (-36 to -22) is a fair swing. In five days time they could be pretty close.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Just pause for a second.

    Why on Earth is the DUP's threat not as originally reported, i.e. if May puts it to a vote? That would make 10x as much sense as if it is passed.

    No, I don't think so. They don't actually want to bring down the government. They want to stop the WA, and replace May with a Brexiteer with whom they can continue their comfy little C&S love in for a few more years.

    Consider the threat to take away May's majority a kind of... backstop.
    Except well over 200 Tory MPs back May's Deal and indeed with Yougov this week the Tories have a clear lead.
    With Yougov the public also opposes the deal.

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1066049396373184513
    Wrong. Put Deal up against No Deal and Deal 34% wins to 27% for No Deal with Ashcroft. That is the ONLY choice that matters if Brexit is to continue


    https://t.co/HGi1Sru0T3?amp=1


    Tory voters are split 35% for the Deal 35% for No Deal.

    Labour voters back the Deal 35% to 24% for No Deal.

    A huge 53% of LDs back May's Deal over just 11% for No Deal
    And like MPs, the public opinion may well shift dramatically after the first meaningful vote at the deal is defeated and No Deal becomes a real looming possibility, but until that point, clearly noone's really automatically convinced by this deal thing.

  • Have you read all 585 pages of the deal? Kudos to you if you have.

    I'm informed, I've read plenty of news articles, comments from here and more about the deal. That ought to be sufficient to be informed enough to discuss it here.

    However the statement I made wasn't even about the deal it was about why people are opposing it. You don't need to read the deal to make such a statement, you need to listen to the reasons people say they are opposing the deal. The backstop or other end-state issues are far more quoted as the reason why the deal is opposed than the transition.

    Yep. And the additional Political Declaration. It is not straight forward because it does reference other EU treaties and documents but if you are going to comment on it then that should only be from a position of having read it. Particularly since I have seen almost no commentary that is neutral - it all reflects the writer's own bias for or against Brexit or for or against May. Certainly there have been plenty of completely ill informed comments on here regarding what is or isn't in the WA. It is striking that it seems to be those who have actually read it from both sides of the debate who seem to be the most at ease with it even if they accept it is far from perfect.
  • NormNorm Posts: 1,251
    Scott_P said:
    This sort of bollox neatly encapsulates why we need to leave.
  • Nobody here has read the deal. Anyone who claims they have is a liar.

    Even if I were minded to, I'm not an international trade lawyer, I'm not even qualified to read the pre-amble.

    You don't need to read something to know it's bad, BTW. I've not read Mein Kampf, L. Ron Hubbard or the UKIP manifesto but that doesn't mean I can't state with absolute certainty that they are BAD.

    I have read every draft treaty that has been produced since the late 80s. I also went back and read all the earlier treaties - something that is necessary as all the treaties basically cross reference earlier agreements.

    You are one of those making claims against the WA without having even looked at it. Hence the reason you have absolutely no credibility and no idea.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688
    Scott_P said:
    I've always thought my future was best shaped by the wishes of the Spanish PM. Or perhaps otherwise.

    I probably should care what he says, but I simply don't. Until he and others convince me that they're going to say sensible things then we're best outside their club. It's fair to point out though that I'd probably leave the UK on that basis, and form an island of one.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Just pause for a second.

    Why on Earth is the DUP's threat not as originally reported, i.e. if May puts it to a vote? That would make 10x as much sense as if it is passed.

    No, I don't think so. They don't actually want to bring down the government. They want to stop the WA, and replace May with a Brexiteer with whom they can continue their comfy little C&S love in for a few more years.

    Consider the threat to take away May's majority a kind of... backstop.
    Except well over 200 Tory MPs back May's Deal and indeed with Yougov this week the Tories have a clear lead.
    With Yougov the public also opposes the deal.

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1066049396373184513
    Wrong. Put Deal up against No Deal and Deal 34% wins to 27% for No Deal with Ashcroft. That is the ONLY choice that matters if Brexit is to continue


    https://t.co/HGi1Sru0T3?amp=1


    Tory voters are split 35% for the Deal 35% for No Deal.

    Labour voters back the Deal 35% to 24% for No Deal.

    A huge 53% of LDs back May's Deal over just 11% for No Deal
    And like MPs, the public opinion may well shift dramatically after the first meaningful vote at the deal is defeated and No Deal becomes a real looming possibility, but until that point, clearly noone's really automatically convinced by this deal thing.
    May knows what she has to do, rule out EUref2 and force a choice between her Deal and the economic abyss of No Deal.

    Force that choice and she wins as the polling increasingly shows, it will not be pretty but it could work
  • The "have you read the entire deal?" argument is so vacuous and lazy it's almost like giving up. I'm still baffled by why people think you have to have read the whole thing to oppose the deal, but nothing more than a vague sense that May tried her darnedest is required to support it.

    Well people should at least have read the bits they are commenting on and it is very clear that many on here have not. They have just listed to others saying how good or bad it is. It means they lack all credibility.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nobody here has read the deal. Anyone who claims they have is a liar.

    Even if I were minded to, I'm not an international trade lawyer, I'm not even qualified to read the pre-amble.

    I've read it.

    Just saying.
    Why would you do that (horrible animation removed)
    Because I wanted to see what was in it for myself.

    Not that hard, really.

    And it wasn't that hard to read either. Much less opaque than most of the stuff I read for my doctorate.
    I don't think I could. My ADHD brain would rebel before I got two pages into that mountain of Eurocrat bullshytte.
    Well, fine. But then may I gently make two further suggestions:

    1) Don't make dogmatic pronouncements on the basis of what I have to say has been spectacularly awful media reporting;

    2) Don't accuse anyone who has read it of lying just becuase you don't think you could do it yourself.

    I have a concert to sing in. Have a good evening.
    You're right. I've been a fool. Yours and only your interpretation is the Absolute Truth.

    I'm amazed I never saw it before.
    You are indeed a fool. But not for the reasons you think...
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 2,038
    Norm said:

    Scott_P said:
    This sort of bollox neatly encapsulates why we need to leave.
    In there any way of turning off these circular arguments?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Omnium said:

    Until he and others convince me that they're going to say sensible things then we're best outside their club. It's fair to point out though that I'd probably leave the UK on that basis, and form an island of one.

    You could club together with some like minded people and colonise one of the Andaman Islands.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Norm said:

    This sort of bollox neatly encapsulates why we need to leave.

    Omnium said:

    I've always thought my future was best shaped by the wishes of the Spanish PM. Or perhaps otherwise.

    I probably should care what he says, but I simply don't. Until he and others convince me that they're going to say sensible things then we're best outside their club. It's fair to point out though that I'd probably leave the UK on that basis, and form an island of one.

    Both of you of course realise the Spanish PM is only in a position to do anything because we voted for Brexit, right?

    Without that, nobody would give a flying fuck what he says.

    "Take Back Control"
  • The Galileo project cost the UK government £1 billion, and we won't be able to access it after Brexit.

    (I daresay it is more complex than that, with much of the project's money being spent with UK companies that developed much of the tech and built much of the hardware.)

    https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/11/23/galileo/

    Surprised they didn't take the approach as they have with the intelligence sharing database, and just charge a fee.

    However, when it comes to the intelligence sharing, the UK provide the bulk of the info, so May has signed up to continuing to providing all this data and now paying a fee on top. Brilliant negotiations.

    Not so much leaving a golf club and asking to continue to play there for a reduced rate, more owning and maintaining the golf club and then agreeing now to pay to use your own course.
    I doubt its true.. We have a lot of levers we can pull.
    Was reported on sky news and that the uk intelligence agencies were extremely pissed off.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    edited November 2018
    Scott_P said:

    matt said:

    Belatedly, there is a long list of people who have lost in court after following their belief that an unsigned contract does not bind. Signature is not one of the tests for simple contracts.

    Who exactly is bound by the current text?
    Read your post.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623
    HYUFD said:


    May knows what she has to do, rule out EUref2 and force a choice between her Deal and the economic abyss of No Deal.

    Force that choice and she wins as the polling increasingly shows, it will not be pretty but it could work

    That's what she's already doing - and it doesn't appear to be working at this moment in time.

    Maybe by the time the vote comes around if she can stall it long enough to run the clock down further and ratchet the pressure up further, but right now? It doesn't look like it's working.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,071

    The "have you read the entire deal?" argument is so vacuous and lazy it's almost like giving up. I'm still baffled by why people think you have to have read the whole thing to oppose the deal, but nothing more than a vague sense that May tried her darnedest is required to support it.

    Well people should at least have read the bits they are commenting on and it is very clear that many on here have not. They have just listed to others saying how good or bad it is. It means they lack all credibility.
    Democracy makes everyone's vote equal, saint or sinner, diligent reader or biased thicko. If only the well informed were allowed to comment then threads would be a lot shorter.

    The deal is significantly worse than Remain, but better than No Deal.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    edited November 2018

    TM will not be blackmailed by the DUP

    If they bring the government down GE it is, no one billion for them and no influence post GE

    Surely the DUP banked the one billion last year?

    Maybe Theresa should ask for her money back? :D
  • Met Police scooter crash video released as IOPC investigates

    However, the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) said it is investigating three cases involving "tactical contact" by Met police cars on scooters.

    According to the IOPC, one of the cases being investigated involved a 17-year-old boy who suffered head injuries a year ago in Bexley.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-46321720

    I imagine that the poor lamb was just rushing home to do his homework.
    Even if this was somebody who was a serial thief with a massive list of convictions, Owen Jones will still find a way to blame the Tories!
  • Foxy said:

    The "have you read the entire deal?" argument is so vacuous and lazy it's almost like giving up. I'm still baffled by why people think you have to have read the whole thing to oppose the deal, but nothing more than a vague sense that May tried her darnedest is required to support it.

    Well people should at least have read the bits they are commenting on and it is very clear that many on here have not. They have just listed to others saying how good or bad it is. It means they lack all credibility.
    Democracy makes everyone's vote equal, saint or sinner, diligent reader or biased thicko. If only the well informed were allowed to comment then threads would be a lot shorter.

    The deal is significantly worse than Remain, but better than No Deal.
    Obviously I disagree with you on at least half of that statement.
  • Just watching Woods v Mickelson 9 million winner takes it all exhibition 18 hole match

    Tiger just missed a gimme - 1 down through 2
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688
    Scott_P said:

    Norm said:

    This sort of bollox neatly encapsulates why we need to leave.

    Omnium said:

    I've always thought my future was best shaped by the wishes of the Spanish PM. Or perhaps otherwise.

    I probably should care what he says, but I simply don't. Until he and others convince me that they're going to say sensible things then we're best outside their club. It's fair to point out though that I'd probably leave the UK on that basis, and form an island of one.

    Both of you of course realise the Spanish PM is only in a position to do anything because we voted for Brexit, right?

    Without that, nobody would give a flying fuck what he says.

    "Take Back Control"
    Without Brexit he'd have roughly the same impact as the British PM. He has less influence on our affairs now, and will have less still if we leave the EU. Not sure if that answers your question.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited November 2018
    Scott_P said:
    Spain really are incredibly transparent on that issue, particularly given there are apparently regional elections coming up there. Obviously politicians will be politicians, wherever they are, but they're clearly not even trying to be serious or constructive. Not the only ones, obviously, but they are acting like the ERG of the EU right now.

    And, for those who think like a child and thing bad behaviour by others excuses another's bad behaviour, that Brexit gives them the opportunity to sound off does not make anything they say reasonable.
  • GIN1138 said:

    TM will not be blackmailed by the DUP

    If they bring the government down GE it is, no one billion for them and no influence post GE

    Surely the DUP banked the one billion last year?

    Maybe Theresa should ask for her money back? :D
    500 so far - 1 billion to go
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited November 2018

    HYUFD said:


    May knows what she has to do, rule out EUref2 and force a choice between her Deal and the economic abyss of No Deal.

    Force that choice and she wins as the polling increasingly shows, it will not be pretty but it could work

    That's what she's already doing - and it doesn't appear to be working at this moment in time.

    Maybe by the time the vote comes around if she can stall it long enough to run the clock down further and ratchet the pressure up further, but right now? It doesn't look like it's working.
    She does not need it to work now (though already polls already show her Deal preferred to No Deal) she needs it to work on the second or subsequent votes after the markets crash, even her aides accept she likely loses the first vote
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    Scott_P said:
    He cannot veto it, it will be decided by QMV
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    edited November 2018
    Scott_P said:
    Almost 1 in 4 - so less than 79 - it was 87 yesterday
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,071

    Foxy said:

    The "have you read the entire deal?" argument is so vacuous and lazy it's almost like giving up. I'm still baffled by why people think you have to have read the whole thing to oppose the deal, but nothing more than a vague sense that May tried her darnedest is required to support it.

    Well people should at least have read the bits they are commenting on and it is very clear that many on here have not. They have just listed to others saying how good or bad it is. It means they lack all credibility.
    Democracy makes everyone's vote equal, saint or sinner, diligent reader or biased thicko. If only the well informed were allowed to comment then threads would be a lot shorter.

    The deal is significantly worse than Remain, but better than No Deal.
    Obviously I disagree with you on at least half of that statement.
    The order of the 3 possibilities is about values and aspirations. It doesn't need forensic analysis.

    Personally, I have arranged my affairs to mean that I am fairly immune, so I can sit back and enjoy the Tory party tearing itself apart. I can't see that any of the 3 options end well for them.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited November 2018
    Scott_P said:
    So? Even if people are right and the EU will let us renegotiate, why the heck would they do that until we have at least voted the current offer down? Are people under the impression May genuinely thinks she is getting this deal through (on the first try at least, not that I think she'll get a second)? I don't find that very believable, therefore the reason she is pushing ahead must have nothing to do with thinking it will pass, so knowing so many are against is kind of irrelevant, it isn't going to scare her into a new path because this is the only path she personally has. It is clearly going to fail, and is just a step in the process.
  • Just watching Woods v Mickelson 9 million winner takes it all exhibition 18 hole match

    Tiger just missed a gimme - 1 down through 2

    10 years ago I would have been interested, now I can’t get excited by this event...and I say that as somebody would would watch twiddly winks if it was going to be exciting close match.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    He cannot veto it, it will be decided by QMV
    Lets not forget the trade issue.. Despite all the bullshit being spoken. We spend more with the EU than they do with us.. Its a disaster for the EU if its NO DEAL>
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    Scott_P said:
    Almost 1 in 4 - so less than 79 - it was 87 yesterday
    It is enough, either way. It's just a question of how embarrassed the government will be, then we find out just how much the EU is telling the truth if they say no more negotiation.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Spain really are incredibly transparent on that issue, particularly given there are apparently regional elections coming up there. Obviously politicians will be politicians, wherever they are, but they're clearly not even trying to be serious or constructive. Not the only ones, obviously, but they are acting like the ERG of the EU right now.
    Spain with Gibraltar, Argentina with the Falklands, and to a lesser extent Ireland with NI. The whole idea of this reverse colonialism is probably as bad as the idea of colonialism in the first place. If Scotland chooses to become a province of Botswana then that's fine by me. Scotland should choose, Gibraltar should choose, and the Falklands should choose. I probably ought to give Botswanan's a veto mind you.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,071
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    He cannot veto it, it will be decided by QMV
    Though the Union values solidarity and unanimity so it carries weight.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    He cannot veto it, it will be decided by QMV
    Lets not forget the trade issue.. Despite all the bullshit being spoken. We spend more with the EU than they do with us.. Its a disaster for the EU if its NO DEAL>
    Not percentage wise, 16% of their exports go to the UK, 44% of our exports to the EU
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited November 2018
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    He cannot veto it, it will be decided by QMV
    The BBC report on it comes to the view that while no formal veto exists there's no way the EU will agree if Spain is not on board

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46320527

    Which does rather beg the question what's the bloody point of QMV if that is so?
  • Just watching Woods v Mickelson 9 million winner takes it all exhibition 18 hole match

    Tiger just missed a gimme - 1 down through 2

    10 years ago I would have been interested, now I can’t get excited by this event...and I say that as somebody would would watch twiddly winks if it was going to be exciting close match.
    Watching two has beens play for 9 billion takes the mind off dozens of politicians taking the country into chaos
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    He cannot veto it, it will be decided by QMV
    The BBC report on it comes to the view that while no formal veto exists there's no way the EU will agree if Spain is not on board

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46320527

    Which does rather beg the question what's the bloody point of QMV if that is so?
    QMV - good when you want to ram through additional integration, but bad when you want to use unanimity to screw the Brits.
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The "have you read the entire deal?" argument is so vacuous and lazy it's almost like giving up. I'm still baffled by why people think you have to have read the whole thing to oppose the deal, but nothing more than a vague sense that May tried her darnedest is required to support it.

    Well people should at least have read the bits they are commenting on and it is very clear that many on here have not. They have just listed to others saying how good or bad it is. It means they lack all credibility.
    Democracy makes everyone's vote equal, saint or sinner, diligent reader or biased thicko. If only the well informed were allowed to comment then threads would be a lot shorter.

    The deal is significantly worse than Remain, but better than No Deal.
    Obviously I disagree with you on at least half of that statement.
    The order of the 3 possibilities is about values and aspirations. It doesn't need forensic analysis.

    Personally, I have arranged my affairs to mean that I am fairly immune, so I can sit back and enjoy the Tory party tearing itself apart. I can't see that any of the 3 options end well for them.
    I agree on that as well. I am not immune but will still enjoy seeing the Tory party destroyed. It is way past its useful lifespan.
  • kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Almost 1 in 4 - so less than 79 - it was 87 yesterday
    It is enough, either way. It's just a question of how embarrassed the government will be, then we find out just how much the EU is telling the truth if they say no more negotiation.
    I agree - indeed the whole thing is political drama beyond belief with no end in sight
  • kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Almost 1 in 4 - so less than 79 - it was 87 yesterday
    It is enough, either way. It's just a question of how embarrassed the government will be, then we find out just how much the EU is telling the truth if they say no more negotiation.
    I agree - indeed the whole thing is political drama beyond belief with no end in sight
  • I

    Just watching Woods v Mickelson 9 million winner takes it all exhibition 18 hole match

    Tiger just missed a gimme - 1 down through 2

    10 years ago I would have been interested, now I can’t get excited by this event...and I say that as somebody would would watch twiddly winks if it was going to be exciting close match.
    Watching two has beens play for 9 billion takes the mind off dozens of politicians taking the country into chaos
    If only it was for 9 billion ;-)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,071
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    He cannot veto it, it will be decided by QMV
    The BBC report on it comes to the view that while no formal veto exists there's no way the EU will agree if Spain is not on board

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46320527

    Which does rather beg the question what's the bloody point of QMV if that is so?
    The EU may well prefer stalling until our Parliament decides whether it supports the deal. They may well have better leverage at that point.
  • I

    Just watching Woods v Mickelson 9 million winner takes it all exhibition 18 hole match

    Tiger just missed a gimme - 1 down through 2

    10 years ago I would have been interested, now I can’t get excited by this event...and I say that as somebody would would watch twiddly winks if it was going to be exciting close match.
    Watching two has beens play for 9 billion takes the mind off dozens of politicians taking the country into chaos
    If only it was for 9 billion ;-)
    Oops - 9 million ( been thinking too much of the DUP )
  • Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    He cannot veto it, it will be decided by QMV
    The BBC report on it comes to the view that while no formal veto exists there's no way the EU will agree if Spain is not on board

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46320527

    Which does rather beg the question what's the bloody point of QMV if that is so?
    The EU may well prefer stalling until our Parliament decides whether it supports the deal. They may well have better leverage at that point.
    If the council is cancelled TM needs to put hold on the deal as it is not approved
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Spain really are incredibly transparent on that issue, particularly given there are apparently regional elections coming up there. Obviously politicians will be politicians, wherever they are, but they're clearly not even trying to be serious or constructive. Not the only ones, obviously, but they are acting like the ERG of the EU right now.

    And, for those who think like a child and thing bad behaviour by others excuses another's bad behaviour, that Brexit gives them the opportunity to sound off does not make anything they say reasonable.

    Andalucia goes to the polls inabout a fortnight and PSOE would dearly love an absolute majority which they won't get. Talking tough on Gibraltar is part of this but Sanchez is completely unconvincing and he rules currently with less than a quarter of the seats inthe national parliament. He started well but things are going rapidly downhill.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Sounds like wishful thinking to me. Even if the anger is being directed that way it doesn't seem to be leading toward anything positive.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    He cannot veto it, it will be decided by QMV
    The BBC report on it comes to the view that while no formal veto exists there's no way the EU will agree if Spain is not on board

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46320527

    Which does rather beg the question what's the bloody point of QMV if that is so?
    The EU may well prefer stalling until our Parliament decides whether it supports the deal. They may well have better leverage at that point.
    Further adding to the unrealistic rebel Tory/ and Labour stances (although at least Labour would be theoretically be able to be more flexible)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited November 2018
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    He cannot veto it, it will be decided by QMV
    The BBC report on it comes to the view that while no formal veto exists there's no way the EU will agree if Spain is not on board

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46320527

    Which does rather beg the question what's the bloody point of QMV if that is so?
    The EU will agree it, legally that is clear, even the BBC reports Spain only has a 'moral veto' indeed the Evening Standard reported the German Ambassador and the Spanish Ambassador to the EU engaged in a shouting match with each other earlier over whether Gibraltar should hold up the Deal. The Spanish support would be helpful but is not vital, in the end as usual the Germans will get their way
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Almost 1 in 4 - so less than 79 - it was 87 yesterday
    It is enough, either way. It's just a question of how embarrassed the government will be, then we find out just how much the EU is telling the truth if they say no more negotiation.
    I agree - indeed the whole thing is political drama beyond belief with no end in sight
    I fear an end is in sight, but it is a pretty chaotic and haphazard one.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    While we're all here, I thought I'd post quickly on recent economic statistics.

    Basically, everywhere is slowing down, and the Eurozone fastest of all. (With one exception.)

    German flash PMIs this morning were well down, coming in at 53.2 for the composite. That's down from 53.4 in the previous month, and well down on the expected 54. That being said, it's still someway from a recession. The overall Eurozone one weakened more, dropping from 53.1 to 52.4. The brightspot in the Eurozone is France, where a composite of 54 was fractionally above the expected 53.9. Macron may be upsetting the French voters, but the underlying economy is responding well to reform.

    In the US, the PMI also came in light of expectations, and retreated markedly from the last month. At 54.4, it's a reasonable number (and marginally ahead of France), but this is indicative of an economy growing at perhaps 2.5% - not the 4% achieved in the second quarter of the year.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The "have you read the entire deal?" argument is so vacuous and lazy it's almost like giving up. I'm still baffled by why people think you have to have read the whole thing to oppose the deal, but nothing more than a vague sense that May tried her darnedest is required to support it.

    Well people should at least have read the bits they are commenting on and it is very clear that many on here have not. They have just listed to others saying how good or bad it is. It means they lack all credibility.
    Democracy makes everyone's vote equal, saint or sinner, diligent reader or biased thicko. If only the well informed were allowed to comment then threads would be a lot shorter.

    The deal is significantly worse than Remain, but better than No Deal.
    Obviously I disagree with you on at least half of that statement.
    The order of the 3 possibilities is about values and aspirations. It doesn't need forensic analysis.

    Personally, I have arranged my affairs to mean that I am fairly immune, so I can sit back and enjoy the Tory party tearing itself apart. I can't see that any of the 3 options end well for them.
    I agree on that as well. I am not immune but will still enjoy seeing the Tory party destroyed. It is way past its useful lifespan.
    The Tory Party is still doing fine thanks, a 3% lead over Labour with YouGov this week even with UKIP up to 6% and a 10% swing from Labour in the Bush Hill Park by election in Enfield last night
  • DruttDrutt Posts: 1,093

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    I see the Swiss are having another important referendum. Now thats what I call democracy...

    https://twitter.com/WSJ/status/1066047507925557248?s=19

    They seem to have a referendum every other week in Switzerland.
    Perhap it is time for another one here too :)
    I propose one on if the Cheese Rolling event should be allowed* by the authorities.

    * In recent years, it is technically banned / roads blocked for miles around, but they can't stop the idiots turning up and running down the hill.
    It's tradition, innit?
    I have been to cheese rolling three times and competed twice. The feeling at the top of the hill is pretty much unparalleled. The bids are twittering in the trees. A man in a silly costume is holding an eight-pound double gloucester. You are one of two dozen or so maniacs variously clad in rugby boots, motocross padding and scruffy tracksuits. You lean forward and see the hill. At its steepest it is 1:1. Your breath condenses and falls away through the still morning air down the slope. You feel all the concentration and pump of a crux move on a rock face, all the camaraderie of a rugby dressing room and all the moment-before battle focus you get in martial arts. Plus you've had two ciders and its only 10.15am.
  • kle4 said:

    Sounds like wishful thinking to me. Even if the anger is being directed that way it doesn't seem to be leading toward anything positive.
    We do know the polling on the deal has gone from "terrible" to "very poor". It could be "OK" by next week
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Drutt said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    I see the Swiss are having another important referendum. Now thats what I call democracy...

    https://twitter.com/WSJ/status/1066047507925557248?s=19

    They seem to have a referendum every other week in Switzerland.
    Perhap it is time for another one here too :)
    I propose one on if the Cheese Rolling event should be allowed* by the authorities.

    * In recent years, it is technically banned / roads blocked for miles around, but they can't stop the idiots turning up and running down the hill.
    It's tradition, innit?
    I have been to cheese rolling three times and competed twice. The feeling at the top of the hill is pretty much unparalleled. The bids are twittering in the trees. A man in a silly costume is holding an eight-pound double gloucester. You are one of two dozen or so maniacs variously clad in rugby boots, motocross padding and scruffy tracksuits. You lean forward and see the hill. At its steepest it is 1:1. Your breath condenses and falls away through the still morning air down the slope. You feel all the concentration and pump of a crux move on a rock face, all the camaraderie of a rugby dressing room and all the moment-before battle focus you get in martial arts. Plus you've had two ciders and its only 10.15am.
    Only two ciders? It'd take more than that to get me up there!
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The "have you read the entire deal?" argument is so vacuous and lazy it's almost like giving up. I'm still baffled by why people think you have to have read the whole thing to oppose the deal, but nothing more than a vague sense that May tried her darnedest is required to support it.

    Well people should at least have read the bits they are commenting on and it is very clear that many on here have not. They have just listed to others saying how good or bad it is. It means they lack all credibility.
    Democracy makes everyone's vote equal, saint or sinner, diligent reader or biased thicko. If only the well informed were allowed to comment then threads would be a lot shorter.

    The deal is significantly worse than Remain, but better than No Deal.
    Obviously I disagree with you on at least half of that statement.
    The order of the 3 possibilities is about values and aspirations. It doesn't need forensic analysis.

    Personally, I have arranged my affairs to mean that I am fairly immune, so I can sit back and enjoy the Tory party tearing itself apart. I can't see that any of the 3 options end well for them.
    I agree on that as well. I am not immune but will still enjoy seeing the Tory party destroyed. It is way past its useful lifespan.
    The Tory Party is still doing fine thanks, a 3% lead over Labour with YouGov this week even with UKIP up to 6% and a 10% swing from Labour in the Bush Hill Park by election in Enfield last night
    That is a bit selective - other polls in the last week have the parties level pegging or show small Labour leads. Local by elections are often very local indeed - the Enfield result was certainly not reflected in the Westminster and Wirral results.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    He cannot veto it, it will be decided by QMV
    The BBC report on it comes to the view that while no formal veto exists there's no way the EU will agree if Spain is not on board

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46320527

    Which does rather beg the question what's the bloody point of QMV if that is so?
    The EU may well prefer stalling until our Parliament decides whether it supports the deal. They may well have better leverage at that point.
    The deal cannot be put to parliament before it is agreed with the EU.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    Scott_P said:
    Almost 1 in 4 - so less than 79 - it was 87 yesterday
    The article refers to 85 - which is more than 1 in 4.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    He cannot veto it, it will be decided by QMV
    The BBC report on it comes to the view that while no formal veto exists there's no way the EU will agree if Spain is not on board

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46320527

    Which does rather beg the question what's the bloody point of QMV if that is so?
    The EU may well prefer stalling until our Parliament decides whether it supports the deal. They may well have better leverage at that point.
    The deal cannot be put to parliament before it is agreed with the EU.
    Do we actually know when that will be? Given its inevitable defeat there's no point waiting on this.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    He cannot veto it, it will be decided by QMV
    The BBC report on it comes to the view that while no formal veto exists there's no way the EU will agree if Spain is not on board

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46320527

    Which does rather beg the question what's the bloody point of QMV if that is so?
    The EU may well prefer stalling until our Parliament decides whether it supports the deal. They may well have better leverage at that point.
    The deal cannot be put to parliament before it is agreed with the EU.
    Do we actually know when that will be? Given its inevitable defeat there's no point waiting on this.
    It should be this Sunday unless a spanner is thrown in the works.

    The interesting thing is why May is travelling to Brussels on Saturday for an additional meeting with Juncker.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    He cannot veto it, it will be decided by QMV
    The BBC report on it comes to the view that while no formal veto exists there's no way the EU will agree if Spain is not on board

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46320527

    Which does rather beg the question what's the bloody point of QMV if that is so?
    The EU may well prefer stalling until our Parliament decides whether it supports the deal. They may well have better leverage at that point.
    The deal cannot be put to parliament before it is agreed with the EU.
    Do we actually know when that will be? Given its inevitable defeat there's no point waiting on this.
    It should be this Sunday unless a spanner is thrown in the works.

    The interesting thing is why May is travelling to Brussels on Saturday for an additional meeting with Juncker.
    I meant when Parliament will vote on it.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281

    GIN1138 said:

    TM will not be blackmailed by the DUP

    If they bring the government down GE it is, no one billion for them and no influence post GE

    Surely the DUP banked the one billion last year?

    Maybe Theresa should ask for her money back? :D
    500 so far - 1 billion to go
    £430m so far; £570m to go.

    https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/northern-ireland-still-to-receive-570m-of-tories-1bn-deal-with-dup-37550135.html
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    He cannot veto it, it will be decided by QMV
    The BBC report on it comes to the view that while no formal veto exists there's no way the EU will agree if Spain is not on board

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46320527

    Which does rather beg the question what's the bloody point of QMV if that is so?
    The EU may well prefer stalling until our Parliament decides whether it supports the deal. They may well have better leverage at that point.
    The deal cannot be put to parliament before it is agreed with the EU.
    Do we actually know when that will be? Given its inevitable defeat there's no point waiting on this.
    It should be this Sunday unless a spanner is thrown in the works.

    The interesting thing is why May is travelling to Brussels on Saturday for an additional meeting with Juncker.
    I meant when Parliament will vote on it.
    Apologies. I don't think there's a date set yet but the week of December 10th is being talked about.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    He cannot veto it, it will be decided by QMV
    The BBC report on it comes to the view that while no formal veto exists there's no way the EU will agree if Spain is not on board

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46320527

    Which does rather beg the question what's the bloody point of QMV if that is so?
    The EU may well prefer stalling until our Parliament decides whether it supports the deal. They may well have better leverage at that point.
    The deal cannot be put to parliament before it is agreed with the EU.
    Do we actually know when that will be? Given its inevitable defeat there's no point waiting on this.
    It should be this Sunday unless a spanner is thrown in the works.

    The interesting thing is why May is travelling to Brussels on Saturday for an additional meeting with Juncker.
    I meant when Parliament will vote on it.
    Apologies. I don't think there's a date set yet but the week of December 10th is being talked about.
    Thanks - ugh, 2 more weeks of this nonsense.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    edited November 2018

    GIN1138 said:

    TM will not be blackmailed by the DUP

    If they bring the government down GE it is, no one billion for them and no influence post GE

    Surely the DUP banked the one billion last year?

    Maybe Theresa should ask for her money back? :D
    500 so far - 1 billion to go
    £430m so far; £570m to go.

    https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/northern-ireland-still-to-receive-570m-of-tories-1bn-deal-with-dup-37550135.html

    EDIT: Just to be clear though, the Confidence & supply agreement signed by the DUP commits them to supporting the government on all votes in the UK Parliament relating to:

    All motions of confidence
    The Queen's Speech
    The Budget*
    Finance bills, money bills and appropriation legislation
    Legislation pertaining to the UK's exit from the European Union

    *So the DUP have already broken the agreement.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    edited November 2018

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The "have you read the entire deal?" argument is so vacuous and lazy it's almost like giving up. I'm still baffled by why people think you have to have read the whole thing to oppose the deal, but nothing more than a vague sense that May tried her darnedest is required to support it.

    Well people should at least have read the bits they are commenting on and it is very clear that many on here have not. They have just listed to others saying how good or bad it is. It means they lack all credibility.
    Democracy makes everyone's vote equal, saint or sinner, diligent reader or biased thicko. If only the well informed were allowed to comment then threads would be a lot shorter.

    The deal is significantly worse than Remain, but better than No Deal.
    Obviously I disagree with you on at least half of that statement.
    The order of the 3 possibilities is about values and aspirations. It doesn't need forensic analysis.

    Personally, I have arranged my affairs to mean that I am fairly immune, so I can sit back and enjoy the Tory party tearing itself apart. I can't see that any of the 3 options end well for them.
    I agree on that as well. I am not immune but will still enjoy seeing the Tory party destroyed. It is way past its useful lifespan.
    Established main political parties are very hard to destroy. The fact that the Tories have thousands of councillors, paying members and hanger-on people, mean it is not going to disappear even if Brexit backfires on them.

    I can be confident in this assertion as history has shown (1945 onwards) time and again that Labour or Tory bounce back even after splits or defections. Just look at how Labour were written off in the aftermath of 1983! They won the biggest post war majority 14 years later with a majority of 179 seats over all other parties, a bigger majority than the Tories had in seats. The Tories likewise were hollowed out in 1997 and 2001, yet were back in government in 2010.

    As long as Labour or the Tories have a critical mass of councillors, members and foot soldiers to take their message to the electorate they will not die! Politics is like a pendulum, it simply moves back and forth with the occasional unexpected move to the centre. This is unlikely to change.
This discussion has been closed.