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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Get ready for possibly the Xmas TV event of the year – May v C

SystemSystem Posts: 6,666
edited November 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Get ready for possibly the Xmas TV event of the year – May v Corbyn on the Brexit deal

Number 10 so confident of May’s knowledge of the withdrawal agreement that they are considering challenging a Corbyn to a debate on it ahead of the meaningful vote on the 12th of December https://t.co/lnkGQ03DIT

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 3,447
    Primus and assuredly not inter pares.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 22,041
    good second
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 1,613
    edited November 2018
    Zippo chance of Corbyn agreeing to that. May is a detail-focused type who's been immersed in this for two years, while Corbyn can barely be bothered learning the basics.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 18,581
    Fourth!
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 14,987
    edited November 2018
    If she doesn't know what she's talking about with respect to agreement, heavan help us. The fact that it's suggested that she doesn't is frightening.

    Mind, I doubt Corbyn knows much of the detail either. If May was up against Starmer, an experienced lawyer, things might be different.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 9,061
    May is poor and wooden.

    Corbyn would win, as he would concentrate on austerity, and only a handful of people are interested in the footnotes on page 382.
  • Rumours that this is a ploy to facilitate their defenestration and seizure of the government by the enormo-haddock are entirely false.

    Alas.
  • May's responses on the WA have been technically accurate, which is much better than her opponents (on both sides of the house). Sure, her political nous sometimes leaves something to be desired, but still - she should go for it.
  • See my previous comment. I can't think of two people less likely to agree to debate this, despite what No 10 sources mutter.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 28,754

    May's responses on the WA have been technically accurate, which is much better than her opponents (on both sides of the house). Sure, her political nous sometimes leaves something to be desired, but still - she should go for it.

    The agreement is ingenious in the sense that she can claim with technical accuracy that we will end free movement, even if free movement never actually ends. The EU have been clear that the four freedoms are still indivisible when it comes to the future relationship.
  • Surely Theresa would be better debating Boris. Get him away from the flatulent rhetoric and make him do details. His ensuing humiliation should make a few No Dealers more than queasy.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 55,950
    Foxy said:

    May is poor and wooden.

    Corbyn would win, as he would concentrate on austerity, and only a handful of people are interested in the footnotes on page 382.

    If it was a debate solely on the Deal he would not be allowed to talk about austerity by the moderators as it would be going off topic
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 55,950

    Surely Theresa would be better debating Boris. Get him away from the flatulent rhetoric and make him do details. His ensuing humiliation should make a few No Dealers more than queasy.

    Perhaps she could debate Corbyn, Umunna, Boris, Foster and Sturgeon, then all bases covered and she might be able to come out on top as her Deal is the only way that does not further divide
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 22,041
    HYUFD said:

    Surely Theresa would be better debating Boris. Get him away from the flatulent rhetoric and make him do details. His ensuing humiliation should make a few No Dealers more than queasy.

    Perhaps she could debate Corbyn, Umunna, Boris, Foster and Sturgeon, then all bases covered and she might be able to come out on top as her Deal is the only way that does not further divide
    Sturgeon would eat her for breakfast
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 4,818
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    May is poor and wooden.

    Corbyn would win, as he would concentrate on austerity, and only a handful of people are interested in the footnotes on page 382.

    If it was a debate solely on the Deal he would not be allowed to talk about austerity by the moderators as it would be going off topic
    Such terms of reference would negate a debate. Corbyn could easily say the public are fed up of Brexit. Let's have a debate on the real issues of jobs, investment, public services, etc..
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 1,651
    Great news that she’s prepared to put her deal up to public scrutiny like this. Makes you wonder why she’s so frit of having a public vote on it...
  • Scott_P said:
    Theresa needs to get Michael Howard on the airwaves again, putting us on a war footing against Spanish speaking nations. Does he still have all his marbles?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 22,041

    Scott_P said:
    Theresa needs to get Michael Howard on the airwaves again, putting us on a war footing against Spanish speaking nations. Does he still have all his marbles?
    Not much more to give away , not keeping much for the FTA, what a joke this is turning out to be. Would not be surprised if she threw in the Falklands as a job lot.
  • Scott_P said:
    Theresa needs to get Michael Howard on the airwaves again, putting us on a war footing against Spanish speaking nations. Does he still have all his marbles?
    The Brussels reporter on PM said the Spanish had actually got nothing at all but were talking it up for domestic consumption. Sounds like Cameron with the his 'deal'.
  • Scott_P said:
    Theresa needs to get Michael Howard on the airwaves again, putting us on a war footing against Spanish speaking nations. Does he still have all his marbles?
    The Brussels reporter on PM said the Spanish had actually got nothing at all but were talking it up for domestic consumption. Sounds like Cameron with the his 'deal'.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 9,061
    edited November 2018

    Great news that she’s prepared to put her deal up to public scrutiny like this. Makes you wonder why she’s so frit of having a public vote on it...

    Perhaps it is her cunning plan to bring around a #peoplesvote.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 5,240

    Scott_P said:
    Theresa needs to get Michael Howard on the airwaves again, putting us on a war footing against Spanish speaking nations. Does he still have all his marbles?
    The Brussels reporter on PM said the Spanish had actually got nothing at all but were talking it up for domestic consumption. Sounds like Cameron with the his 'deal'.
    OTOH, we could be the ones talking it up for domestic consumption claiming we've given nothing away when we've made a substantial concession.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 55,950
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    May is poor and wooden.

    Corbyn would win, as he would concentrate on austerity, and only a handful of people are interested in the footnotes on page 382.

    If it was a debate solely on the Deal he would not be allowed to talk about austerity by the moderators as it would be going off topic
    Such terms of reference would negate a debate. Corbyn could easily say the public are fed up of Brexit. Let's have a debate on the real issues of jobs, investment, public services, etc..
    He could do but he would be refused the opportunity by the moderator and in any case May could reasonably point out the future of all those issues depend on getting Brexit right
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 28,754
    Whatever happened to Geoff, the Leaver from Gibraltar?
  • Scott_P said:
    Theresa needs to get Michael Howard on the airwaves again, putting us on a war footing against Spanish speaking nations. Does he still have all his marbles?
    The Brussels reporter on PM said the Spanish had actually got nothing at all but were talking it up for domestic consumption. Sounds like Cameron with the his 'deal'.
    Was Deborah reading my comments on the last thread?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 5,240
    So, we're going to build thousands and thousands of new homes and many of them won't be fit to live in - brilliant:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46302905
  • Whatever happened to Geoff, the Leaver from Gibraltar?

    Still about. Was praising Boris's oratory brilliance on the last thread.
  • stodge said:

    Scott_P said:
    Theresa needs to get Michael Howard on the airwaves again, putting us on a war footing against Spanish speaking nations. Does he still have all his marbles?
    The Brussels reporter on PM said the Spanish had actually got nothing at all but were talking it up for domestic consumption. Sounds like Cameron with the his 'deal'.
    OTOH, we could be the ones talking it up for domestic consumption claiming we've given nothing away when we've made a substantial concession.
    Hardly seems likely that the BBC would be talking it up. They would be more likely to be reporting another British defeat with glee if they could spin it that way.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 28,754

    Whatever happened to Geoff, the Leaver from Gibraltar?

    Still about. Was praising Boris's oratory brilliance on the last thread.
    I think that's a different Geoff.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 55,950
    Scott_P said:
    Gibraltar voted 99% to stay British in 2002, that is not happening, though Spain may try and get some say over Gibraltar as Ireland has over Northern Ireland after the Good Friday Agreement
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 55,950
    stodge said:

    So, we're going to build thousands and thousands of new homes and many of them won't be fit to live in - brilliant:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46302905

    'Last month, the government announced plans to introduce a New Homes Ombudsman, to help buyers having problems with their newly built property.
    Housing Minister Heather Wheeler told 5 Live Investigates: "Where people have problems with their new-build home, builders and warranty providers have a legal and moral obligation to put it right.
    "While we develop these plans, we expect the industry to continue to improve the current redress arrangements and ensure properties are consistently of a good standard."'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46302905
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 18,581

    Whatever happened to Geoff, the Leaver from Gibraltar?

    He probably got fed up being the only gay in the village.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 22,041
    stodge said:

    Scott_P said:
    Theresa needs to get Michael Howard on the airwaves again, putting us on a war footing against Spanish speaking nations. Does he still have all his marbles?
    The Brussels reporter on PM said the Spanish had actually got nothing at all but were talking it up for domestic consumption. Sounds like Cameron with the his 'deal'.
    OTOH, we could be the ones talking it up for domestic consumption claiming we've given nothing away when we've made a substantial concession.
    The donkeys would not even know they were signing it away, Spain has waited till it is too late for the morons to do anything.
  • HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Gibraltar voted 99% to stay British in 2002, that is not happening, though Spain may try and get some say over Gibraltar as Ireland has over Northern Ireland after the Good Friday Agreement
    Spain: "Lets talk about co-sovereignty"
    UK: "OK, lets ask the Gibraltarians"
    Gibraltar: "Foxtrot Oscar"
    UK: "We tried. Next?"
  • May is such an expert on her deal that she doesn't know whether or not it is better than remaining in the EU.

    Jezza would make mincemeat of her.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 22,041

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Gibraltar voted 99% to stay British in 2002, that is not happening, though Spain may try and get some say over Gibraltar as Ireland has over Northern Ireland after the Good Friday Agreement
    Spain: "Lets talk about co-sovereignty"
    UK: "OK, lets ask the Gibraltarians"
    Gibraltar: "Foxtrot Oscar"
    UK: "We tried. Next?"
    LOL, if they want their FTA , they will do as usual and sign it over , you Tories really are fools.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 14,987
    IanB2 said:

    Whatever happened to Geoff, the Leaver from Gibraltar?

    He probably got fed up being the only gay in the village.
    Are you suggesting Leavers are gay?

    Miserable lot maybe, unable to see where there's a bright future, but surely they're the say mix as the rest of us?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 2,483

    Whatever happened to Geoff, the Leaver from Gibraltar?

    Still about. Was praising Boris's oratory brilliance on the last thread.
    I think that's a different Geoff.
    According to his profile GeoffM was banned. Last active August 2017.

  • malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Gibraltar voted 99% to stay British in 2002, that is not happening, though Spain may try and get some say over Gibraltar as Ireland has over Northern Ireland after the Good Friday Agreement
    Spain: "Lets talk about co-sovereignty"
    UK: "OK, lets ask the Gibraltarians"
    Gibraltar: "Foxtrot Oscar"
    UK: "We tried. Next?"
    you Tories really are fools.
    And yet, you lost the independence referendum.....go figure.....
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 4,818
    edited November 2018
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    May is poor and wooden.

    Corbyn would win, as he would concentrate on austerity, and only a handful of people are interested in the footnotes on page 382.

    If it was a debate solely on the Deal he would not be allowed to talk about austerity by the moderators as it would be going off topic
    Such terms of reference would negate a debate. Corbyn could easily say the public are fed up of Brexit. Let's have a debate on the real issues of jobs, investment, public services, etc..
    He could do but he would be refused the opportunity by the moderator and in any case May could reasonably point out the future of all those issues depend on getting Brexit right
    Which is why I am saying he would never agree to such laughable terms of reference. And how he would spin not taking part.
    Additional lines include, but are not limited to.
    If you want a debate, PM, call an election and we can have a proper one.
    You really need to be debating your own Party colleagues.
    You refused a debate during the GE. You want one now?
    Etc, etc, etc.
  • HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Gibraltar voted 99% to stay British in 2002, that is not happening, though Spain may try and get some say over Gibraltar as Ireland has over Northern Ireland after the Good Friday Agreement
    The colonists can quite easily stay British by moving to Eastbourne. These last vestiges of Empire ought to be relinquished.
  • Scott_P said:
    Looks like you have given up your brains. And yes you are definitely a f###ing mess.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 22,041

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Gibraltar voted 99% to stay British in 2002, that is not happening, though Spain may try and get some say over Gibraltar as Ireland has over Northern Ireland after the Good Friday Agreement
    Spain: "Lets talk about co-sovereignty"
    UK: "OK, lets ask the Gibraltarians"
    Gibraltar: "Foxtrot Oscar"
    UK: "We tried. Next?"
    you Tories really are fools.
    And yet, you lost the independence referendum.....go figure.....
    Scotland has its cowards and fools as well, the bribes worked on the fools until the vote was over. The idiots now see the results, it will be tougher next time.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 5,240
    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    So, we're going to build thousands and thousands of new homes and many of them won't be fit to live in - brilliant:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46302905

    'Last month, the government announced plans to introduce a New Homes Ombudsman, to help buyers having problems with their newly built property.
    Housing Minister Heather Wheeler told 5 Live Investigates: "Where people have problems with their new-build home, builders and warranty providers have a legal and moral obligation to put it right.
    "While we develop these plans, we expect the industry to continue to improve the current redress arrangements and ensure properties are consistently of a good standard."'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46302905
    All fine but if lots of new homes mean lots of problems how can we be sure the new Homes Ombudsman is going to be properly resourced in order to deal with the volume of complaints in a timely and proper manner?

    If it's not properly established, the New Homes Ombudsman becomes another political gimmick, a meaningless waste of public money.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 25,173

    Scott_P said:
    Theresa needs to get Michael Howard on the airwaves again, putting us on a war footing against Spanish speaking nations. Does he still have all his marbles?
    Talking of Marbles - that will be the Greek demand for signing. You see.....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 55,950

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Gibraltar voted 99% to stay British in 2002, that is not happening, though Spain may try and get some say over Gibraltar as Ireland has over Northern Ireland after the Good Friday Agreement
    The colonists can quite easily stay British by moving to Eastbourne. These last vestiges of Empire ought to be relinquished.
    Winter in Eastbourne or winter in Gibraltar? Not much contest
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 55,950
    edited November 2018
    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Gibraltar voted 99% to stay British in 2002, that is not happening, though Spain may try and get some say over Gibraltar as Ireland has over Northern Ireland after the Good Friday Agreement
    Spain: "Lets talk about co-sovereignty"
    UK: "OK, lets ask the Gibraltarians"
    Gibraltar: "Foxtrot Oscar"
    UK: "We tried. Next?"
    LOL, if they want their FTA , they will do as usual and sign it over , you Tories really are fools.
    Even Spain is not demanding Gibraltar be handed over with full sovereignty without Gibraltarians consent
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 22,041
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Gibraltar voted 99% to stay British in 2002, that is not happening, though Spain may try and get some say over Gibraltar as Ireland has over Northern Ireland after the Good Friday Agreement
    The colonists can quite easily stay British by moving to Eastbourne. These last vestiges of Empire ought to be relinquished.
    Winter in Eastbourne or winter in Gibraltar? Not much contest
    They better start learning Spanish , that is for sure.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 18,581

    IanB2 said:

    Whatever happened to Geoff, the Leaver from Gibraltar?

    He probably got fed up being the only gay in the village.
    Are you suggesting Leavers are gay?

    Miserable lot maybe, unable to see where there's a bright future, but surely they're the say mix as the rest of us?
    I certainly wasn't suggesting that. Only noting that as a Leave voter living in Gibraltar he must have mixed in a very narrow social circle.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 18,581
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Gibraltar voted 99% to stay British in 2002, that is not happening, though Spain may try and get some say over Gibraltar as Ireland has over Northern Ireland after the Good Friday Agreement
    The colonists can quite easily stay British by moving to Eastbourne. These last vestiges of Empire ought to be relinquished.
    Winter in Eastbourne or winter in Gibraltar? Not much contest
    What, the second sunniest place in the UK, after Ventnor?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 55,950
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    So, we're going to build thousands and thousands of new homes and many of them won't be fit to live in - brilliant:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46302905

    'Last month, the government announced plans to introduce a New Homes Ombudsman, to help buyers having problems with their newly built property.
    Housing Minister Heather Wheeler told 5 Live Investigates: "Where people have problems with their new-build home, builders and warranty providers have a legal and moral obligation to put it right.
    "While we develop these plans, we expect the industry to continue to improve the current redress arrangements and ensure properties are consistently of a good standard."'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46302905
    All fine but if lots of new homes mean lots of problems how can we be sure the new Homes Ombudsman is going to be properly resourced in order to deal with the volume of complaints in a timely and proper manner?

    If it's not properly established, the New Homes Ombudsman becomes another political gimmick, a meaningless waste of public money.
    It is the new homes which cost, the New Homes Ombudsman will cost less than the new buildings and just because a new home has a defect somewhere does not necessarily make it unlivable even before it is rectified
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 22,041
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Gibraltar voted 99% to stay British in 2002, that is not happening, though Spain may try and get some say over Gibraltar as Ireland has over Northern Ireland after the Good Friday Agreement
    Spain: "Lets talk about co-sovereignty"
    UK: "OK, lets ask the Gibraltarians"
    Gibraltar: "Foxtrot Oscar"
    UK: "We tried. Next?"
    LOL, if they want their FTA , they will do as usual and sign it over , you Tories really are fools.
    Even Spain is not demanding Gibraltar be handed over with full sovereignty without Gibraltarians consent
    Yet, are you in the Brexit negotiating team, certainly sound as if you would believe anything.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 55,950
    edited November 2018
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Gibraltar voted 99% to stay British in 2002, that is not happening, though Spain may try and get some say over Gibraltar as Ireland has over Northern Ireland after the Good Friday Agreement
    The colonists can quite easily stay British by moving to Eastbourne. These last vestiges of Empire ought to be relinquished.
    Winter in Eastbourne or winter in Gibraltar? Not much contest
    What, the second sunniest place in the UK, after Ventnor?
    That is a bit like saying the second warmest place in Siberia in winter, not much of a trophy
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 18,581
    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Gibraltar voted 99% to stay British in 2002, that is not happening, though Spain may try and get some say over Gibraltar as Ireland has over Northern Ireland after the Good Friday Agreement
    The colonists can quite easily stay British by moving to Eastbourne. These last vestiges of Empire ought to be relinquished.
    Winter in Eastbourne or winter in Gibraltar? Not much contest
    They better start learning Spanish , that is for sure.
    Maybe we should keep Gibraltar and let Spain have Eastbourne?
  • IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Whatever happened to Geoff, the Leaver from Gibraltar?

    He probably got fed up being the only gay in the village.
    Are you suggesting Leavers are gay?

    Miserable lot maybe, unable to see where there's a bright future, but surely they're the say mix as the rest of us?
    I certainly wasn't suggesting that. Only noting that as a Leave voter living in Gibraltar he must have mixed in a very narrow social circle.
    Indeed, most folk in Gibraltar want to stay in the EU. Well, there is an obvious way to achieve that.
  • stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    So, we're going to build thousands and thousands of new homes and many of them won't be fit to live in - brilliant:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46302905

    'Last month, the government announced plans to introduce a New Homes Ombudsman, to help buyers having problems with their newly built property.
    Housing Minister Heather Wheeler told 5 Live Investigates: "Where people have problems with their new-build home, builders and warranty providers have a legal and moral obligation to put it right.
    "While we develop these plans, we expect the industry to continue to improve the current redress arrangements and ensure properties are consistently of a good standard."'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46302905
    All fine but if lots of new homes mean lots of problems how can we be sure the new Homes Ombudsman is going to be properly resourced in order to deal with the volume of complaints in a timely and proper manner?

    If it's not properly established, the New Homes Ombudsman becomes another political gimmick, a meaningless waste of public money.
    I have bought two new homes in my time and both of them had snagging problems. Indeed it sometimes takes time for them to become apparent.

    Our problems came under the 2 year NHBC guarantee and were sorted. We need to be careful that we do not lose common sense
  • stodgestodge Posts: 5,240
    HYUFD said:

    It is the new homes which cost, the New Homes Ombudsman will cost less than the new buildings and just because a new home has a defect somewhere does not necessarily make it unlivable even before it is rectified

    As I know from experience, defects do not mean a new property is uninhabitable and the BBC story is an extreme example but many new homes do have significant problems beyond snagging such as poorly installed windows or roofs and these can take a lot of time and cost to rectify.

    The developer isn't really interested in revisiting sites and the ones I have dealt with fight tooth and nail to deny responsibility and prevaricate around remedial works. My concern is the volume of small problems will overwhelm a poorly resourced service which is in theory a good idea but will only work in practice if it has clout.

  • IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Whatever happened to Geoff, the Leaver from Gibraltar?

    He probably got fed up being the only gay in the village.
    Are you suggesting Leavers are gay?

    Miserable lot maybe, unable to see where there's a bright future, but surely they're the say mix as the rest of us?
    I certainly wasn't suggesting that. Only noting that as a Leave voter living in Gibraltar he must have mixed in a very narrow social circle.
    Not necessarily....some of us do interact with people whose views are not identical to our own....
  • As far as TM debating brexit with Corbyn is concerned I see it as a sensible idea and needs TM to issue the challenge through the media.

    Corbyn supporters seem to think it could go onto the domestic agenda but the moderator would need to keep it focused.

    TM is going full on public broadcast and meeting the public and this would just compliment it
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 55,950
    IanB2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Gibraltar voted 99% to stay British in 2002, that is not happening, though Spain may try and get some say over Gibraltar as Ireland has over Northern Ireland after the Good Friday Agreement
    The colonists can quite easily stay British by moving to Eastbourne. These last vestiges of Empire ought to be relinquished.
    Winter in Eastbourne or winter in Gibraltar? Not much contest
    They better start learning Spanish , that is for sure.
    Maybe we should keep Gibraltar and let Spain have Eastbourne?
    Given Spain was regularly over 40 degrees celcius this summer and the mild Spanish winters we could let the Spanish spend summer in Eastbourne and the British spend winter in Gibraltar
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 22,041
    IanB2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Gibraltar voted 99% to stay British in 2002, that is not happening, though Spain may try and get some say over Gibraltar as Ireland has over Northern Ireland after the Good Friday Agreement
    The colonists can quite easily stay British by moving to Eastbourne. These last vestiges of Empire ought to be relinquished.
    Winter in Eastbourne or winter in Gibraltar? Not much contest
    They better start learning Spanish , that is for sure.
    Maybe we should keep Gibraltar and let Spain have Eastbourne?
    The way this lot are negotiating they are likely to get both.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 18,581
    First, Britain’s experience “has shown how complicated leaving is. Second, Brexit has boosted popular support for the EU.” October’s Eurobarometer survey shows that 68% of respondents feel their country benefits from EU membership, the highest level since 1983, while 66% – a majority in every state – said they would vote to remain in any exit referendum.
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 1,474
    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    So, we're going to build thousands and thousands of new homes and many of them won't be fit to live in - brilliant:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46302905

    'Last month, the government announced plans to introduce a New Homes Ombudsman, to help buyers having problems with their newly built property.
    Housing Minister Heather Wheeler told 5 Live Investigates: "Where people have problems with their new-build home, builders and warranty providers have a legal and moral obligation to put it right.
    "While we develop these plans, we expect the industry to continue to improve the current redress arrangements and ensure properties are consistently of a good standard."'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46302905
    All fine but if lots of new homes mean lots of problems how can we be sure the new Homes Ombudsman is going to be properly resourced in order to deal with the volume of complaints in a timely and proper manner?

    If it's not properly established, the New Homes Ombudsman becomes another political gimmick, a meaningless waste of public money.
    It is the new homes which cost, the New Homes Ombudsman will cost less than the new buildings and just because a new home has a defect somewhere does not necessarily make it unlivable even before it is rectified
    Having an Ombudsman is treating the symptoms and not the cause. The construction industry has been called a 'jungle' for >50 years. What's really needed is to educate, train and regulate the industry like its counterparts in the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany or Denmark, or indeed Austria or Switzerland, where houses are visibly higher quality and not as expensive.

    It may not happen. Housebuilders' money helps to finance the Tory party. Landowners make a packet out of the system of awarding planning permission. There's always downward pressure on construction costs and quality because the price paid for the land is so high, also in a seller's market a developer can sell any old rubbish for £300,000.

    When Milton Keynes began, the system was different. The development corporation bought farmland at its existing value - which is about £1,000 for a plot 50 x 20 m (quarter acre) - and sold serviced plots to self-builders, or bare plots to developers to put in services. The profit went to the treasury but in some countries it goes to the local council and reduces taxes.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 18,581
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Gibraltar voted 99% to stay British in 2002, that is not happening, though Spain may try and get some say over Gibraltar as Ireland has over Northern Ireland after the Good Friday Agreement
    The colonists can quite easily stay British by moving to Eastbourne. These last vestiges of Empire ought to be relinquished.
    Winter in Eastbourne or winter in Gibraltar? Not much contest
    What, the second sunniest place in the UK, after Ventnor?
    That is a bit like saying the second warmest place in Siberia in winter, not much of a trophy
    This year, at least, both Ventnor and Eastbourne have been extremely sunny.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 5,240


    I have bought two new homes in my time and both of them had snagging problems. Indeed it sometimes takes time for them to become apparent.

    Our problems came under the 2 year NHBC guarantee and were sorted. We need to be careful that we do not lose common sense

    I'm trying to emphasise (for HYUFD's benefit) the difference between snagging and more serious problems. Many moons ago I bought a brand new flat but, along with every other Owner, we discovered the wooden window frames had been of poor quality and the paint on them had begun to peel off in the first winter.

    We subsequently discovered the frames had been left out in the rain before being fitted and were never properly treated.

    We claimed against the developer wanting proper windows for over 120 flats in three blocks all of which had the same problem and it was a long hard fight to get the developer to a) accept there was a problem and b) to do anything about it.

    This is the kind of dispute where the New Homes Ombudsman could be of value but my concern is given the volume of new property being built and the likely volume of complaints, this new initiative needs to be properly resourced rather than just being one person in an office somewhere.
  • IanB2 said:

    First, Britain’s experience “has shown how complicated leaving is. Second, Brexit has boosted popular support for the EU.” October’s Eurobarometer survey shows that 68% of respondents feel their country benefits from EU membership, the highest level since 1983, while 66% – a majority in every state – said they would vote to remain in any exit referendum.

    I am not surprised by that finding. It does not of course mean we should stay
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 55,950
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Gibraltar voted 99% to stay British in 2002, that is not happening, though Spain may try and get some say over Gibraltar as Ireland has over Northern Ireland after the Good Friday Agreement
    The colonists can quite easily stay British by moving to Eastbourne. These last vestiges of Empire ought to be relinquished.
    Winter in Eastbourne or winter in Gibraltar? Not much contest
    What, the second sunniest place in the UK, after Ventnor?
    That is a bit like saying the second warmest place in Siberia in winter, not much of a trophy
    This year, at least, both Ventnor and Eastbourne have been extremely sunny.
    In the summer, not November
  • stodgestodge Posts: 5,240

    As far as TM debating brexit with Corbyn is concerned I see it as a sensible idea and needs TM to issue the challenge through the media.

    Corbyn supporters seem to think it could go onto the domestic agenda but the moderator would need to keep it focused.

    TM is going full on public broadcast and meeting the public and this would just compliment it

    I can say what's in this for May but not for Corbyn. He's not absolutely nothing to gain from this so why should he do it?

    Would she be prepared to debate Boris?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 25,173
    edited November 2018
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Gibraltar voted 99% to stay British in 2002, that is not happening, though Spain may try and get some say over Gibraltar as Ireland has over Northern Ireland after the Good Friday Agreement
    The colonists can quite easily stay British by moving to Eastbourne. These last vestiges of Empire ought to be relinquished.
    Winter in Eastbourne or winter in Gibraltar? Not much contest
    What, the second sunniest place in the UK, after Ventnor?
    That is a bit like saying the second warmest place in Siberia in winter, not much of a trophy
    This year, at least, both Ventnor and Eastbourne have been extremely sunny.
    Tiree in the Outer Hebs has the most sunshine hours in the UK.
  • stodge said:


    I have bought two new homes in my time and both of them had snagging problems. Indeed it sometimes takes time for them to become apparent.

    Our problems came under the 2 year NHBC guarantee and were sorted. We need to be careful that we do not lose common sense

    I'm trying to emphasise (for HYUFD's benefit) the difference between snagging and more serious problems. Many moons ago I bought a brand new flat but, along with every other Owner, we discovered the wooden window frames had been of poor quality and the paint on them had begun to peel off in the first winter.

    We subsequently discovered the frames had been left out in the rain before being fitted and were never properly treated.

    We claimed against the developer wanting proper windows for over 120 flats in three blocks all of which had the same problem and it was a long hard fight to get the developer to a) accept there was a problem and b) to do anything about it.

    This is the kind of dispute where the New Homes Ombudsman could be of value but my concern is given the volume of new property being built and the likely volume of complaints, this new initiative needs to be properly resourced rather than just being one person in an office somewhere.
    That needs a means of arbitration
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 55,950
    edited November 2018

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    So, we're going to build thousands and thousands of new homes and many of them won't be fit to live in - brilliant:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46302905

    'Last month, the government announced plans to introduce a New Homes Ombudsman, to help buyers having problems with their newly built property.
    Housing Minister Heather Wheeler told 5 Live Investigates: "Where people have problems with their new-build home, builders and warranty providers have a legal and moral obligation to put it right.
    "While we develop these plans, we expect the industry to continue to improve the current redress arrangements and ensure properties are consistently of a good standard."'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46302905
    All fine but if lots of new homes mean lots of problems how can we be sure the new Homes Ombudsman is going to be properly resourced in order to deal with the volume of complaints in a timely and proper manner?

    If it's not properly established, the New Homes Ombudsman becomes another political gimmick, a meaningless waste of public money.
    It is the new homes which cost, the New Homes Ombudsman will cost less than the new buildings and just because a new home has a defect somewhere does not necessarily make it unlivable even before it is rectified
    Having an Ombudsman is treating the symptoms and not the cause. The construction industry has been called a 'jungle' for >50 years. What's really needed is to educate, train and regulate the industry like its counterparts in the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany or Denmark, or indeed Austria or Switzerland, where houses are visibly higher quality and not as expensive.

    It may not happen. Housebuilders' money helps to finance the Tory party. Landowners make a packet out of the system of awarding planning permission. There's always downward pressure on construction costs and quality because the price paid for the land is so high, also in a seller's market a developer can sell any old rubbish for £300,000.

    When Milton Keynes began, the system was different. The development corporation bought farmland at its existing value - which is about £1,000 for a plot 50 x 20 m (quarter acre) - and sold serviced plots to self-builders, or bare plots to developers to put in services. The profit went to the treasury but in some countries it goes to the local council and reduces taxes.
    Maybe in terms of improving quality but Switzerland and Germany have the lowest home ownership rates in Europe which is what building more homes is primarily supposed to address
  • Oh shit.
  • She needs to mark up and talk about the future political declaration, not the withdrawal agreement.

    If she's talking about the latter she will lose.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 55,950
    malcolmg said:

    IanB2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Gibraltar voted 99% to stay British in 2002, that is not happening, though Spain may try and get some say over Gibraltar as Ireland has over Northern Ireland after the Good Friday Agreement
    The colonists can quite easily stay British by moving to Eastbourne. These last vestiges of Empire ought to be relinquished.
    Winter in Eastbourne or winter in Gibraltar? Not much contest
    They better start learning Spanish , that is for sure.
    Maybe we should keep Gibraltar and let Spain have Eastbourne?
    The way this lot are negotiating they are likely to get both.
    The May as Chamberlain comparisons are already starting, Boris clearly thinks he is Churchill

  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 3,695

    As far as TM debating brexit with Corbyn is concerned I see it as a sensible idea and needs TM to issue the challenge through the media.

    Corbyn supporters seem to think it could go onto the domestic agenda but the moderator would need to keep it focused.

    TM is going full on public broadcast and meeting the public and this would just compliment it

    In reality as it always has been , it is an internal conservative dog fight.

    May should debate with Jacob.

    Put it on BBC 3 , so not to interrupt any one else.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 28,754

    She needs to mark up and talk about the future political declaration, not the withdrawal agreement.

    If she's talking about the latter she will lose.

    The declaration is like the December agreement all over again. It asserts that the four freedoms are indivisible. Once you combine that with the backstop it's a strong pointer towards a long-term BINO outcome, but done in a way that allows people who think it means something else to claim victory.
  • TudorRoseTudorRose Posts: 1,245

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Whatever happened to Geoff, the Leaver from Gibraltar?

    He probably got fed up being the only gay in the village.
    Are you suggesting Leavers are gay?

    Miserable lot maybe, unable to see where there's a bright future, but surely they're the say mix as the rest of us?
    I certainly wasn't suggesting that. Only noting that as a Leave voter living in Gibraltar he must have mixed in a very narrow social circle.
    Not necessarily....some of us do interact with people whose views are not identical to our own....
    Presumably all genuinely progressive people do....! One of the more interesting sideshows of Brexit is the demonstration of how many supposedly 'open minded' people don't really want to engage with those with whom they disagree.
  • Scott_P said:
    Theresa needs to get Michael Howard on the airwaves again, putting us on a war footing against Spanish speaking nations. Does he still have all his marbles?
    The Brussels reporter on PM said the Spanish had actually got nothing at all but were talking it up for domestic consumption. Sounds like Cameron with the his 'deal'.
    It doesn't say anything that wasn't already known.

    The worst that happens is Gib gets a mini "no deal" just for itself, not joint sovereignty, and because that will also screw a large part of Andalusia that won't happen either.
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,350
    The risk of such a debate is that the public conclude that Corbyn hasn't got a clue about anything, and that Theresa May has and it's a lousy deal.

    Lose - lose
  • IanB2 said:

    First, Britain’s experience “has shown how complicated leaving is. Second, Brexit has boosted popular support for the EU.” October’s Eurobarometer survey shows that 68% of respondents feel their country benefits from EU membership, the highest level since 1983, while 66% – a majority in every state – said they would vote to remain in any exit referendum.

    Stockholm Syndrome.
  • She needs to mark up and talk about the future political declaration, not the withdrawal agreement.

    If she's talking about the latter she will lose.

    The declaration is like the December agreement all over again. It asserts that the four freedoms are indivisible. Once you combine that with the backstop it's a strong pointer towards a long-term BINO outcome, but done in a way that allows people who think it means something else to claim victory.
    They are indivisible in the sense we will give up some freedom of movement of goods and services (and the CU) to get the EU to give up some freedom of movement
  • IanB2 said:

    Whatever happened to Geoff, the Leaver from Gibraltar?

    He probably got fed up being the only gay in the village.
    I am in regular contact with Geoff. He's as staunch as he's ever been.
  • She needs to mark up and talk about the future political declaration, not the withdrawal agreement.

    If she's talking about the latter she will lose.

    The declaration is like the December agreement all over again. It asserts that the four freedoms are indivisible. Once you combine that with the backstop it's a strong pointer towards a long-term BINO outcome, but done in a way that allows people who think it means something else to claim victory.
    Lol. Desperate stuff.
  • Yorkcity said:

    As far as TM debating brexit with Corbyn is concerned I see it as a sensible idea and needs TM to issue the challenge through the media.

    Corbyn supporters seem to think it could go onto the domestic agenda but the moderator would need to keep it focused.

    TM is going full on public broadcast and meeting the public and this would just compliment it

    In reality as it always has been , it is an internal conservative dog fight.

    May should debate with Jacob.

    Put it on BBC 3 , so not to interrupt any one else.
    Why not Corbyn. He is as divided as conservatives and he is the leader of the opposition who have a big say in this
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 6,595
    edited November 2018
    tpfkar said:

    The risk of such a debate is that the public conclude that Corbyn hasn't got a clue about anything, and that Theresa May has and it's a lousy deal.

    Lose - lose

    Untrue

    Everyone already knows, even Labour voters know that Corbyn is an empty vessel and knows jack shit about anything. All he ever uses is left wing rhetoric.
  • TudorRoseTudorRose Posts: 1,245

    Yorkcity said:

    As far as TM debating brexit with Corbyn is concerned I see it as a sensible idea and needs TM to issue the challenge through the media.

    Corbyn supporters seem to think it could go onto the domestic agenda but the moderator would need to keep it focused.

    TM is going full on public broadcast and meeting the public and this would just compliment it

    In reality as it always has been , it is an internal conservative dog fight.

    May should debate with Jacob.

    Put it on BBC 3 , so not to interrupt any one else.
    Why not Corbyn. He is as divided as conservatives and he is the leader of the opposition who have a big say in this
    More to the point he has already said that his party will vote against the deal which may/will consign it to defeat. He should be held accountable for that decision on such an important issue for the country as a whole.
  • F1: just the one bet. Or two halves, as you like:
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2018/11/abu-dhabi-pre-race-2018.html
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 555
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    So, we're going to build thousands and thousands of new homes and many of them won't be fit to live in - brilliant:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46302905

    'Last month, the government announced plans to introduce a New Homes Ombudsman, to help buyers having problems with their newly built property.
    Housing Minister Heather Wheeler told 5 Live Investigates: "Where people have problems with their new-build home, builders and warranty providers have a legal and moral obligation to put it right.
    "While we develop these plans, we expect the industry to continue to improve the current redress arrangements and ensure properties are consistently of a good standard."'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46302905
    All fine but if lots of new homes mean lots of problems how can we be sure the new Homes Ombudsman is going to be properly resourced in order to deal with the volume of complaints in a timely and proper manner?

    If it's not properly established, the New Homes Ombudsman becomes another political gimmick, a meaningless waste of public money.
    Third Party Collateral Warranties (e.g. for tenants or funding bodies) are already in use in the construction industry - an Ombudsman will only slow dispute resolution down even more.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 11,199
    edited November 2018
    On topic the optics of this sound like a horrible idea for TMay. Corbyn should bite her hand off. Corbyn can pick up on a few nice, easy-to-understand criticisms with some basis in truth. You can't defend against those with detailed knowledge of the minutiae. I wonder if the point is less to win the debate than to set up Corbyn as the opposition instead of her own party, to help put pressure on them to work with her against the enemy.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 28,754

    She needs to mark up and talk about the future political declaration, not the withdrawal agreement.

    If she's talking about the latter she will lose.

    The declaration is like the December agreement all over again. It asserts that the four freedoms are indivisible. Once you combine that with the backstop it's a strong pointer towards a long-term BINO outcome, but done in a way that allows people who think it means something else to claim victory.
    They are indivisible in the sense we will give up some freedom of movement of goods and services (and the CU) to get the EU to give up some freedom of movement
    Will we though? That's still an open question.
  • Nuke Madrid, I mean what’s the bloody point of Trident ?

    But let us take a few moments to laugh at the 823 Gibraltarans that voted to Leave.

    On topic May should debate the Eunuchs of the ERG.
  • She needs to mark up and talk about the future political declaration, not the withdrawal agreement.

    If she's talking about the latter she will lose.

    The declaration is like the December agreement all over again. It asserts that the four freedoms are indivisible. Once you combine that with the backstop it's a strong pointer towards a long-term BINO outcome, but done in a way that allows people who think it means something else to claim victory.
    They are indivisible in the sense we will give up some freedom of movement of goods and services (and the CU) to get the EU to give up some freedom of movement
    Will we though? That's still an open question.
    The question is "some", no UK prime minister is going to give up freedom of movement without folding and going to EEA. There's just no point.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 28,754
    edited November 2018

    She needs to mark up and talk about the future political declaration, not the withdrawal agreement.

    If she's talking about the latter she will lose.

    The declaration is like the December agreement all over again. It asserts that the four freedoms are indivisible. Once you combine that with the backstop it's a strong pointer towards a long-term BINO outcome, but done in a way that allows people who think it means something else to claim victory.
    They are indivisible in the sense we will give up some freedom of movement of goods and services (and the CU) to get the EU to give up some freedom of movement
    Will we though? That's still an open question.
    The question is "some", no UK prime minister is going to give up freedom of movement without folding and going to EEA. There's just no point.
    Why? An Association Agreement that includes the full single market and customs union is arguably a superior framework because it's better able to accommodate all the non-economic aspects of the relationship. We can also claim that we "forced" the EU to concede a bespoke deal.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 18,581

    On topic the optics of this sound like a horrible idea for TMay. Corbyn should bite her hand off. Corbyn can pick up on a few nice, easy-to-understand criticisms with some basis in truth. You can't defend against those with detailed knowledge of the minutiae. I wonder if the point is less to win the debate than to set up Corbyn as the opposition instead of her own party, to help put pressure on them to work with her against the enemy.

    IF (a big one) the story is true, I reckon the Tories would be counting on Corbyn refusing. As you say, knowledge of the detail isn't the key to winning a public debate - just look how Clegg came unstuck against Farage despite his greater knowledge of how the EU actually benefits Britain.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 23,815
    Corbyn doesn't have to have read the documents. Brexit has been characterised by people on all sides saying whatever sh*t they think will sound good to their supporters and the public - e.g. “Within minutes of a vote for #Brexit CEO’s would be knocking down Chancellor Merkel’s door. Demanding access to the British market”

    Therefore all his team has to do is think up some great soundbites, pray he keeps off the topics of Jews, Israel and Palestine, and get him to hammer the soundbites home.

    In this febrile environment, people coming to the table with facts are at a disadvantage, as facts are often inconvenient and difficult, whereas dreams are easy - until you need to implement them.
  • She needs to mark up and talk about the future political declaration, not the withdrawal agreement.

    If she's talking about the latter she will lose.

    The declaration is like the December agreement all over again. It asserts that the four freedoms are indivisible. Once you combine that with the backstop it's a strong pointer towards a long-term BINO outcome, but done in a way that allows people who think it means something else to claim victory.
    They are indivisible in the sense we will give up some freedom of movement of goods and services (and the CU) to get the EU to give up some freedom of movement
    Will we though? That's still an open question.
    The question is "some", no UK prime minister is going to give up freedom of movement without folding and going to EEA. There's just no point.
    Why? An Association Agreement that includes the full single market and customs union is arguably a superior framework because its better able to accommodate all the non-economic aspects of the relationship. We can also claim that we "forced" the EU to concede a bespoke deal.
    An EEA but not the EEA

    I can see the case, but it's mostly optics. Lots more work for 'just' the justification of a bespoke deal.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 14,826
    edited November 2018

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Whatever happened to Geoff, the Leaver from Gibraltar?

    He probably got fed up being the only gay in the village.
    Are you suggesting Leavers are gay?

    Miserable lot maybe, unable to see where there's a bright future, but surely they're the say mix as the rest of us?
    I certainly wasn't suggesting that. Only noting that as a Leave voter living in Gibraltar he must have mixed in a very narrow social circle.
    Not necessarily....some of us do interact with people whose views are not identical to our own....
    I seem to recall he was one of those who liked to mention the widget hammer, so perhaps his interactiveness had its limitations.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 18,581
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    IanB2 said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Gibraltar voted 99% to stay British in 2002, that is not happening, though Spain may try and get some say over Gibraltar as Ireland has over Northern Ireland after the Good Friday Agreement
    The colonists can quite easily stay British by moving to Eastbourne. These last vestiges of Empire ought to be relinquished.
    Winter in Eastbourne or winter in Gibraltar? Not much contest
    They better start learning Spanish , that is for sure.
    Maybe we should keep Gibraltar and let Spain have Eastbourne?
    The way this lot are negotiating they are likely to get both.
    The May as Chamberlain comparisons are already starting, Boris clearly thinks he is Churchill

    If only we still had copies of Churchill's two letters....?
  • TudorRoseTudorRose Posts: 1,245
    IanB2 said:

    On topic the optics of this sound like a horrible idea for TMay. Corbyn should bite her hand off. Corbyn can pick up on a few nice, easy-to-understand criticisms with some basis in truth. You can't defend against those with detailed knowledge of the minutiae. I wonder if the point is less to win the debate than to set up Corbyn as the opposition instead of her own party, to help put pressure on them to work with her against the enemy.

    IF (a big one) the story is true, I reckon the Tories would be counting on Corbyn refusing. As you say, knowledge of the detail isn't the key to winning a public debate - just look how Clegg came unstuck against Farage despite his greater knowledge of how the EU actually benefits Britain.
    Wasn't the point that Farage had a greater knowledge of how the EU doesn't benefit Britain?
This discussion has been closed.