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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Tuesday the final midterms showdown – the Mississippi senatori

SystemSystem Posts: 6,666
edited November 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Tuesday the final midterms showdown – the Mississippi senatorial run-off

It might be 3 weeks since the US midterm elections but there is a lot still to be settled. One of the interesting features from a British perspective is that some States seem to take an enormously long time to actually count the votes and not all the California seats in the house have been resolved yet.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 6,595
    First
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 6,595
    FPT

    So, If I believed half of what was written on here(the previous thread), We've lost Gibraltar, We are now an Island colony of the EU/ France and as Corporal Fraser would say, We're Doomed I tell you, Doomed.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 9,061

    FPT

    So, If I believed half of what was written on here(the previous thread), We've lost Gibraltar, We are now an Island colony of the EU/ France and as Corporal Fraser would say, We're Doomed I tell you, Doomed.

    "They don't like it up 'em!"

    Has quickly transformed into:

    "Dont panic!, don't panic!"

    One of the things that has long bedeviled British attitudes to Europe is our nostalgic obsessiin with WW2. Attempting to view everything through that distorting prism is a major handicap.



  • Egg on face time for Francois
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 9,061
    So sad when the handing out of gongs and titles no longer buys support. Buying off vain underlings with such fripparies has long been the basis of our system of government.
  • This is the Guardian take on the internal Labour push to call a special conference on May's deal. Though it's a shoddy piece of journalism as it doesn't tell us what the mechanism/thresholds are.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/24/campaign-corbyn-peoples-vote-special-conference-referendum
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 11,537
    edited November 2018
    The question is whether schmoozing the constituency chairs has failed, or if they will be leaning on wavering MPs to support Theresa May's deal. Wasn't there a scene in House of Cards where Urquhart defuses a problem by offering a gong?

    OT: blimey. HoC was nearly 30 years ago.

    ETA: hold on! Chequers? Has Nadine been hoodwinked?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 12,131
    The latest is a report that she sent her daughter to a ‘segregation academy’ (one of the private schools for white families founded the year after the Supreme Court ordered desegregation of education) having attended one herself.

    13/1 is decent odds, as I agree there’s a real chance of an upset.
  • There's 15 on Betfair for Espy to win.
  • This gives a flavour of where the DUP/Johnson are going on this. #1 Pretend negotiations are ongoing. #2 Frame it as seeking to improve the deal not opposing it. #3 Force May to postpone the meaningful vote rather than defeat her and force her to go to the scheduled December EUCO seeking more concessions. Burns another 3 weeks.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/24/dup-prepared-to-bring-down-government-may-brexit-deal
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 14,986

    The question is whether schmoozing the constituency chairs has failed, or if they will be leaning on wavering MPs to support Theresa May's deal. Wasn't there a scene in House of Cards where Urquhart defuses a problem by offering a gong?

    OT: blimey. HoC was nearly 30 years ago.

    ETA: hold on! Chequers? Has Nadine been hoodwinked?
    Hoodwink Nadine! How would that be possible?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 52,384
    edited November 2018
    Actually I'm on the other side of this betting fence, having Hyde-Smith -10.5 at 17-20, and considered (But didn't) lumping on the 1.06 available for her on Betfair.
  • Details of the Populus 8K sample poll which has Remain 56% Leave 44%. It looks at the demographics drinking the top line changes ( certain sorts of Labour voters )
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/poll-reveals-majority-brexiteers-constituents-13640744
  • Sophy Ridge to IDS. Your colleague Dominic Raab says remaining is better than this, do you agree

    Answer was no.

    Expect lots of brexiteers getting the same question
  • President of Council - deal endorsed.

    To be fair TM has achieved brexit but if the UK rejects it so be it.

  • On topic: I've thought about taking some of the long odds on Betfair on an upset. I made money on Doug Jones.But not knowing much about the state I've been put off by several US media articles pointing out how restrictive Mississippi electoral law is. Basically all the things that allow late counter mobilisation by non traditional, low turnout and unregistered voters don't exist. It would have to a view amongst a *lot* of traditional Republican voters she was just too extreme and as now the Senate isn't in play they could have a free hit. I'd be interested to hear from folk who know the state.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 821

    This gives a flavour of where the DUP/Johnson are going on this. #1 Pretend negotiations are ongoing. #2 Frame it as seeking to improve the deal not opposing it. #3 Force May to postpone the meaningful vote rather than defeat her and force her to go to the scheduled December EUCO seeking more concessions. Burns another 3 weeks.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/24/dup-prepared-to-bring-down-government-may-brexit-deal

    There is only 4 months before 29/3/19. It is desirable to prevaricate over dealing with the obstacles so as to get to the finishing line, even if that means no deal. Once out of the EU, the conditions for re-joining won't be the existing membership terms, and selling "re-join" will be harder than selling "remain".
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 55,950
    The latest poll has the GOP's Cindy Hyde-Smith ahead of the Democrats Mike Espy 50% to 36% so unlikely to be any shocks in Mississippi

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_special_election_in_Mississippi,_2018
  • daodao said:

    This gives a flavour of where the DUP/Johnson are going on this. #1 Pretend negotiations are ongoing. #2 Frame it as seeking to improve the deal not opposing it. #3 Force May to postpone the meaningful vote rather than defeat her and force her to go to the scheduled December EUCO seeking more concessions. Burns another 3 weeks.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/24/dup-prepared-to-bring-down-government-may-brexit-deal

    There is only 4 months before 29/3/19. It is desirable to prevaricate over dealing with the obstacles so as to get to the finishing line, even if that means no deal. Once out of the EU, the conditions for re-joining won't be the existing membership terms, and selling "re-join" will be harder than selling "remain".
    The EU today are clear it is this deal or no deal

    No deal brexiteers need to start making a convincing case for it
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 55,950
    edited November 2018
    Nandy on Sky waffling on about how she cannot support the Deal unless it keeps sufficient EU standards and that some Leave voters in her seat back No Deal.


    Now going on about 'citizens assemblies' and delaying Brexit for a 'process of dialogue'. Clearly clueless about what she wants to do other than backing extension of Article 50
  • HYUFD said:

    Nandy on Sky waffling on about how she cannot support the Deal unless it keeps sufficient EU standards

    Remain
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 52,384
    HYUFD said:

    Nandy on Sky waffling on about how she cannot support the Deal unless it keeps sufficient EU standards

    Well that's good news for my leadership bets on her, less so for the nation.
  • Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nandy on Sky waffling on about how she cannot support the Deal unless it keeps sufficient EU standards

    Well that's good news for my leadership bets on her, less so for the nation.
    She is trying to have it both ways - probably most mps are the same
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 3,520

    President of Council - deal endorsed.

    To be fair TM has achieved brexit but if the UK rejects it so be it.

    MOMENTO DE MALVINAS CONFIRMED.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 44,609
    daodao said:

    This gives a flavour of where the DUP/Johnson are going on this. #1 Pretend negotiations are ongoing. #2 Frame it as seeking to improve the deal not opposing it. #3 Force May to postpone the meaningful vote rather than defeat her and force her to go to the scheduled December EUCO seeking more concessions. Burns another 3 weeks.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/24/dup-prepared-to-bring-down-government-may-brexit-deal

    There is only 4 months before 29/3/19. It is desirable to prevaricate over dealing with the obstacles so as to get to the finishing line, even if that means no deal. Once out of the EU, the conditions for re-joining won't be the existing membership terms, and selling "re-join" will be harder than selling "remain".
    Thats true, but I'd call it as 50/50 we wont leave at all. No deal is default so it is not as easy to avoid as some pretend but mps really don't want it and with negotiation a con given the time left remain becomes very real especially with some ultra leavers openly admitting they'd rather do that than deal.

    But my gods it's going to be silly, even for this, for the next few weeks. Those relying on markets to spook what needs to be 100 or more mps (huge numbers of Tory rebels and some number of Labour ones) to see a deal through are fooling themselves.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 52,384
    Looking at this timetable is there any reason the UK Paliament final vote couldn't be delayed to the first week in March ?

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-timetable-key-dates-uk-leave-eu-vote-commons-deal-european-coun-a8586101.html
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 44,609
    HYUFD said:

    Nandy on Sky waffling on about how she cannot support the Deal unless it keeps sufficient EU standards and that some Leave voters in her seat back No Deal.


    Now going on about 'citizens assemblies' and delaying Brexit for a 'process of dialogue'. Clearly clueless about what she wants to do other than backing extension of Article 50

    The deal really has gone down like a stinker. Remainers by and large won't touch it now as remain is possible and everyone can find something in it to say it is not good enough as a pretext for seeking remain or No deal.

    Today is a farce and 2 years of effort have been an absolute waste.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 12,131
    edited November 2018
    Pulpstar said:

    Looking at this timetable is there any reason the UK Paliament final vote couldn't be delayed to the first week in March ?

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-timetable-key-dates-uk-leave-eu-vote-commons-deal-european-coun-a8586101.html

    Another three months of this nonsense ?
    I might have to take a break from PB....

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 55,950
    edited November 2018
    French MEP says Britain will be treated as a 'rogue state' with No Deal Brexit as it will have breached international treaties on Sky News.


    Says though the UK can stay in the EU under current conditions though but will have to pay the cost of the negotiations
  • All I have to say about Brexit today is this. I don't call for prime ministerial resignations lightly but Theresa May needs to resign and resign immediately. Her ' letter to the nation ' is an abomination and several orders of magnitude worse than Blair's Dodgy Dossier. She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies. Even one from a PM would have been unthinkable even three years ago yet the abandon with she uses them in that letter lays the foundation for a political crisis starting next April far worse than anything we've experienced so far.

    Even the Red Bus only had one lie in it. Even Blair's Dodgy Dossier was predicated on the concept of truth which is why he went to the lengths he did to create evidence to prove claims. May's casual assault on the concept of objective truth in that letter is now full Trumpian. The parliamentary system makes her much easier to remove than a US president. Whether it's now the '22 route, cabinet revolt, the House itself or the deep state she needs to go and go immediately. She's clearly crossed an internal psychological barrier and with the power she holds such unhinged people are very dangerous.

    Someone somewhere needs to do their duty.
  • Mr. Smithson, that's a pretty tight margin, to be honest.
  • kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nandy on Sky waffling on about how she cannot support the Deal unless it keeps sufficient EU standards and that some Leave voters in her seat back No Deal.


    Now going on about 'citizens assemblies' and delaying Brexit for a 'process of dialogue'. Clearly clueless about what she wants to do other than backing extension of Article 50

    The deal really has gone down like a stinker. Remainers by and large won't touch it now as remain is possible and everyone can find something in it to say it is not good enough as a pretext for seeking remain or No deal.

    Today is a farce and 2 years of effort have been an absolute waste.
    Not really. This has brought the whole issue to a head with a brexit deal on the table

    It is for the HOC to navigate its way from here but we are now looking at a deal that is a benchmark to use

    I expect it to fall in the HOC but TM needs to put it to Parliament and lets see when and if it falls the response from TM and the EU
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 44,609

    daodao said:

    This gives a flavour of where the DUP/Johnson are going on this. #1 Pretend negotiations are ongoing. #2 Frame it as seeking to improve the deal not opposing it. #3 Force May to postpone the meaningful vote rather than defeat her and force her to go to the scheduled December EUCO seeking more concessions. Burns another 3 weeks.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/24/dup-prepared-to-bring-down-government-may-brexit-deal

    There is only 4 months before 29/3/19. It is desirable to prevaricate over dealing with the obstacles so as to get to the finishing line, even if that means no deal. Once out of the EU, the conditions for re-joining won't be the existing membership terms, and selling "re-join" will be harder than selling "remain".
    The EU today are clear it is this deal or no deal

    No deal brexiteers need to start making a convincing case for it
    No dealers are not the biggest issue. The biggest issue are new dealers, being about a third to a quarter of Tories and all of Labour.

    They don't believe the EU and think no deal wont happen either. We have to hope they're right because given they don't believe the EU there's no reason to think they will vote differently if they do it a second time. At least with a referendum people might as the question may be slightly different.

    Have a good day everyone. We need to get to this vote fast and see if those chancing no deal because they prioritise party interest through a GE or unrealistic dreams of negotiation are correct.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 6,595

    All I have to say about Brexit today is this. I don't call for prime ministerial resignations lightly but Theresa May needs to resign and resign immediately. Her ' letter to the nation ' is an abomination and several orders of magnitude worse than Blair's Dodgy Dossier. She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies. Even one from a PM would have been unthinkable even three years ago yet the abandon with she uses them in that letter lays the foundation for a political crisis starting next April far worse than anything we've experienced so far.

    Even the Red Bus only had one lie in it. Even Blair's Dodgy Dossier was predicated on the concept of truth which is why he went to the lengths he did to create evidence to prove claims. May's casual assault on the concept of objective truth in that letter is now full Trumpian. The parliamentary system makes her much easier to remove than a US president. Whether it's now the '22 route, cabinet revolt, the House itself or the deep state she needs to go and go immediately. She's clearly crossed an internal psychological barrier and with the power she holds such unhinged people are very dangerous.

    Someone somewhere needs to do their duty.

    Perhaps you could be good enough to itemise these "lies" so we can all take a view on it.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 55,950
    Tony Blair on Marr this morning
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 3,520

    She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies.

    She is quite Trump-like in her shameless, bare faced lying.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 55,950
    edited November 2018
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nandy on Sky waffling on about how she cannot support the Deal unless it keeps sufficient EU standards and that some Leave voters in her seat back No Deal.


    Now going on about 'citizens assemblies' and delaying Brexit for a 'process of dialogue'. Clearly clueless about what she wants to do other than backing extension of Article 50

    The deal really has gone down like a stinker. Remainers by and large won't touch it now as remain is possible and everyone can find something in it to say it is not good enough as a pretext for seeking remain or No deal.

    Today is a farce and 2 years of effort have been an absolute waste.
    This is all the EU will agree bar further caving in on permanent customs union and/or permanent single market membership.

    There is no better Deal available for Leavers bar No Deal which with just 32% of voters backing it according to Survation likely just leads back to Remain sooner or later
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 11,101
    Look, I think Missisipi is a foregone conclusion and won't be betting as I see no value but as has been pointed out Alabama voted for Trump by a higher margin than Missisipi and also has a higher percentage of white voters than Missisipi.

    It took a kiddy fiddler being the Alabama GOP candidate to get Doug Jones the win but technically it is a smaller hill in Mississippi
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 55,950

    All I have to say about Brexit today is this. I don't call for prime ministerial resignations lightly but Theresa May needs to resign and resign immediately. Her ' letter to the nation ' is an abomination and several orders of magnitude worse than Blair's Dodgy Dossier. She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies. Even one from a PM would have been unthinkable even three years ago yet the abandon with she uses them in that letter lays the foundation for a political crisis starting next April far worse than anything we've experienced so far.

    Even the Red Bus only had one lie in it. Even Blair's Dodgy Dossier was predicated on the concept of truth which is why he went to the lengths he did to create evidence to prove claims. May's casual assault on the concept of objective truth in that letter is now full Trumpian. The parliamentary system makes her much easier to remove than a US president. Whether it's now the '22 route, cabinet revolt, the House itself or the deep state she needs to go and go immediately. She's clearly crossed an internal psychological barrier and with the power she holds such unhinged people are very dangerous.

    Someone somewhere needs to do their duty.

    May is doing her duty, sadly the same cannot be said for so many grandstanding MPs who are putting their own egos, ideological purity or petty party politics first ahead of the good of the country
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 6,595
    Dura_Ace said:

    She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies.

    She is quite Trump-like in her shameless, bare faced lying.
    Have you read the document? Can you itemise these lies?
  • Anyway, I must be off. The Abu Dhabi Grand Prix kicks off at just after 1pm.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 8,666

    All I have to say about Brexit today is this. I don't call for prime ministerial resignations lightly but Theresa May needs to resign and resign immediately. Her ' letter to the nation ' is an abomination and several orders of magnitude worse than Blair's Dodgy Dossier. She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies. Even one from a PM would have been unthinkable even three years ago yet the abandon with she uses them in that letter lays the foundation for a political crisis starting next April far worse than anything we've experienced so far.

    Even the Red Bus only had one lie in it. Even Blair's Dodgy Dossier was predicated on the concept of truth which is why he went to the lengths he did to create evidence to prove claims. May's casual assault on the concept of objective truth in that letter is now full Trumpian. The parliamentary system makes her much easier to remove than a US president. Whether it's now the '22 route, cabinet revolt, the House itself or the deep state she needs to go and go immediately. She's clearly crossed an internal psychological barrier and with the power she holds such unhinged people are very dangerous.

    Someone somewhere needs to do their duty.

    Theresa May's letter repeats the broken promises of the Leave campaign. For it to work, Remainers would have to accept arguments that repelled them last time and Leavers will have to pretend those promises weren't broken.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 44,609

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nandy on Sky waffling on about how she cannot support the Deal unless it keeps sufficient EU standards and that some Leave voters in her seat back No Deal.


    Now going on about 'citizens assemblies' and delaying Brexit for a 'process of dialogue'. Clearly clueless about what she wants to do other than backing extension of Article 50

    The deal really has gone down like a stinker. Remainers by and large won't touch it now as remain is possible and everyone can find something in it to say it is not good enough as a pretext for seeking remain or No deal.

    Today is a farce and 2 years of effort have been an absolute waste.
    Not really. This has brought the whole issue to a head with a brexit deal on the table

    It is for the HOC to navigate its way from here but we are now looking at a deal that is a benchmark to use

    I expect it to fall in the HOC but TM needs to put it to Parliament and lets see when and if it falls the response from TM and the EU
    Either the EU will admit they are lying about renegotiating and become much more amenable or they won't. At that point we either go for a GE predicated on a false idea that we can renegotiate or a referendum is agreed.

    I wish it weren't so, but there's no incentive for parliament to approve anything. Not for those seeking a GE, not for those implacably opposed, not for new deal dreamers.

    I think farce is pretty appropriate.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 52,384
    I think May needs to run down more time before the meaningful vote. The start of December to the end of March clearly is a very long time in the eyes of many of our politicians.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 25,173
    HYUFD said:

    All I have to say about Brexit today is this. I don't call for prime ministerial resignations lightly but Theresa May needs to resign and resign immediately. Her ' letter to the nation ' is an abomination and several orders of magnitude worse than Blair's Dodgy Dossier. She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies. Even one from a PM would have been unthinkable even three years ago yet the abandon with she uses them in that letter lays the foundation for a political crisis starting next April far worse than anything we've experienced so far.

    Even the Red Bus only had one lie in it. Even Blair's Dodgy Dossier was predicated on the concept of truth which is why he went to the lengths he did to create evidence to prove claims. May's casual assault on the concept of objective truth in that letter is now full Trumpian. The parliamentary system makes her much easier to remove than a US president. Whether it's now the '22 route, cabinet revolt, the House itself or the deep state she needs to go and go immediately. She's clearly crossed an internal psychological barrier and with the power she holds such unhinged people are very dangerous.

    Someone somewhere needs to do their duty.

    May is doing her duty, sadly the same cannot be said for so many grandstanding MPs who are putting their own egos, ideological purity or petty party politics first ahead of the good of the country
    If it is a shit deal, against the national interest, it is hardly grandstanding to point that out.

    It's cowardice not to.
  • All I have to say about Brexit today is this. I don't call for prime ministerial resignations lightly but Theresa May needs to resign and resign immediately. Her ' letter to the nation ' is an abomination and several orders of magnitude worse than Blair's Dodgy Dossier. She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies. Even one from a PM would have been unthinkable even three years ago yet the abandon with she uses them in that letter lays the foundation for a political crisis starting next April far worse than anything we've experienced so far.

    Even the Red Bus only had one lie in it. Even Blair's Dodgy Dossier was predicated on the concept of truth which is why he went to the lengths he did to create evidence to prove claims. May's casual assault on the concept of objective truth in that letter is now full Trumpian. The parliamentary system makes her much easier to remove than a US president. Whether it's now the '22 route, cabinet revolt, the House itself or the deep state she needs to go and go immediately. She's clearly crossed an internal psychological barrier and with the power she holds such unhinged people are very dangerous.

    Someone somewhere needs to do their duty.

    Yep, it’s pretty sickening. But there is no better alternative for the Tories.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 52,384

    HYUFD said:

    All I have to say about Brexit today is this. I don't call for prime ministerial resignations lightly but Theresa May needs to resign and resign immediately. Her ' letter to the nation ' is an abomination and several orders of magnitude worse than Blair's Dodgy Dossier. She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies. Even one from a PM would have been unthinkable even three years ago yet the abandon with she uses them in that letter lays the foundation for a political crisis starting next April far worse than anything we've experienced so far.

    Even the Red Bus only had one lie in it. Even Blair's Dodgy Dossier was predicated on the concept of truth which is why he went to the lengths he did to create evidence to prove claims. May's casual assault on the concept of objective truth in that letter is now full Trumpian. The parliamentary system makes her much easier to remove than a US president. Whether it's now the '22 route, cabinet revolt, the House itself or the deep state she needs to go and go immediately. She's clearly crossed an internal psychological barrier and with the power she holds such unhinged people are very dangerous.

    Someone somewhere needs to do their duty.

    May is doing her duty, sadly the same cannot be said for so many grandstanding MPs who are putting their own egos, ideological purity or petty party politics first ahead of the good of the country
    If it is a shit deal, against the national interest, it is hardly grandstanding to point that out.

    It's cowardice not to.
    Would you prefer no deal or remain ?
  • FF43 said:

    All I have to say about Brexit today is this. I don't call for prime ministerial resignations lightly but Theresa May needs to resign and resign immediately. Her ' letter to the nation ' is an abomination and several orders of magnitude worse than Blair's Dodgy Dossier. She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies. Even one from a PM would have been unthinkable even three years ago yet the abandon with she uses them in that letter lays the foundation for a political crisis starting next April far worse than anything we've experienced so far.

    Even the Red Bus only had one lie in it. Even Blair's Dodgy Dossier was predicated on the concept of truth which is why he went to the lengths he did to create evidence to prove claims. May's casual assault on the concept of objective truth in that letter is now full Trumpian. The parliamentary system makes her much easier to remove than a US president. Whether it's now the '22 route, cabinet revolt, the House itself or the deep state she needs to go and go immediately. She's clearly crossed an internal psychological barrier and with the power she holds such unhinged people are very dangerous.

    Someone somewhere needs to do their duty.

    Theresa May's letter repeats the broken promises of the Leave campaign. For it to work, Remainers would have to accept arguments that repelled them last time and Leavers will have to pretend those promises weren't broken.

    It’s a letter to the country designed for MPs.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 44,609
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nandy on Sky waffling on about how she cannot support the Deal unless it keeps sufficient EU standards and that some Leave voters in her seat back No Deal.


    Now going on about 'citizens assemblies' and delaying Brexit for a 'process of dialogue'. Clearly clueless about what she wants to do other than backing extension of Article 50

    The deal really has gone down like a stinker. Remainers by and large won't touch it now as remain is possible and everyone can find something in it to say it is not good enough as a pretext for seeking remain or No deal.

    Today is a farce and 2 years of effort have been an absolute waste.
    This is all the EU will agree bar further caving in on permanent customs union and/or permanent single market membership.

    There is no better Deal available for Leavers bar No Deal which with just 32% of voters backing it according to Survation likely just leads back to Remain sooner or later
    Yes indeed.

    And if we remain after all this? For the first time ever I am considering not voting in something. Not because it would be undemocratic, but just because why waste so much energy on politics when it is all so useless and meaningless.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    kle4 said:

    daodao said:

    This gives a flavour of where the DUP/Johnson are going on this. #1 Pretend negotiations are ongoing. #2 Frame it as seeking to improve the deal not opposing it. #3 Force May to postpone the meaningful vote rather than defeat her and force her to go to the scheduled December EUCO seeking more concessions. Burns another 3 weeks.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/24/dup-prepared-to-bring-down-government-may-brexit-deal

    There is only 4 months before 29/3/19. It is desirable to prevaricate over dealing with the obstacles so as to get to the finishing line, even if that means no deal. Once out of the EU, the conditions for re-joining won't be the existing membership terms, and selling "re-join" will be harder than selling "remain".
    Thats true, but I'd call it as 50/50 we wont leave at all. No deal is default so it is not as easy to avoid as some pretend but mps really don't want it and with negotiation a con given the time left remain becomes very real especially with some ultra leavers openly admitting they'd rather do that than deal.

    But my gods it's going to be silly, even for this, for the next few weeks. Those relying on markets to spook what needs to be 100 or more mps (huge numbers of Tory rebels and some number of Labour ones) to see a deal through are fooling themselves.
    The "meaningful" vote needs to be delayed as long as possible, to minimise the alternative courses of action. It will be a humiliating disaster for the UK to have had a referendum and invoked Article 50 as a result, only to rescind those decisions.
  • kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nandy on Sky waffling on about how she cannot support the Deal unless it keeps sufficient EU standards and that some Leave voters in her seat back No Deal.


    Now going on about 'citizens assemblies' and delaying Brexit for a 'process of dialogue'. Clearly clueless about what she wants to do other than backing extension of Article 50

    The deal really has gone down like a stinker. Remainers by and large won't touch it now as remain is possible and everyone can find something in it to say it is not good enough as a pretext for seeking remain or No deal.

    Today is a farce and 2 years of effort have been an absolute waste.
    Not really. This has brought the whole issue to a head with a brexit deal on the table

    It is for the HOC to navigate its way from here but we are now looking at a deal that is a benchmark to use

    I expect it to fall in the HOC but TM needs to put it to Parliament and lets see when and if it falls the response from TM and the EU
    Either the EU will admit they are lying about renegotiating and become much more amenable or they won't. At that point we either go for a GE predicated on a false idea that we can renegotiate or a referendum is agreed.

    I wish it weren't so, but there's no incentive for parliament to approve anything. Not for those seeking a GE, not for those implacably opposed, not for new deal dreamers.

    I think farce is pretty appropriate.
    It is most certainly a farce
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 44,609
    FF43 said:

    All I have to say about Brexit today is this. I don't call for prime ministerial resignations lightly but Theresa May needs to resign and resign immediately. Her ' letter to the nation ' is an abomination and several orders of magnitude worse than Blair's Dodgy Dossier. She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies. Even one from a PM would have been unthinkable even three years ago yet the abandon with she uses them in that letter lays the foundation for a political crisis starting next April far worse than anything we've experienced so far.

    Even the Red Bus only had one lie in it. Even Blair's Dodgy Dossier was predicated on the concept of truth which is why he went to the lengths he did to create evidence to prove claims. May's casual assault on the concept of objective truth in that letter is now full Trumpian. The parliamentary system makes her much easier to remove than a US president. Whether it's now the '22 route, cabinet revolt, the House itself or the deep state she needs to go and go immediately. She's clearly crossed an internal psychological barrier and with the power she holds such unhinged people are very dangerous.

    Someone somewhere needs to do their duty.

    Theresa May's letter repeats the broken promises of the Leave campaign.
    How appropriate given remainers and new dealers are repeating the lame tactics of the leave campaign in making their preferred vague outcome seem easy and it being reliant on the EU doing what we want.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies.

    She is quite Trump-like in her shameless, bare faced lying.
    The ' letter to the nation ' is the cross over moment for me. At least we all know Boris Johnson is a pound shop Frank Underwood so he is a much less dangerous sociopath than May now is. Her dutiful Head of Geography/Rotary Club Chairwoman schtick gives her cultural access he doesn't have. Harold Shipman was a GP. The psychological state needed to write that ' letter to the nation ' coupled with her residual trust make her very very dangerous. She needs to be terminated imeadiately.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 55,950

    HYUFD said:

    All I have to say about Brexit today is this. I don't call for prime ministerial resignations lightly but Theresa May needs to resign and resign immediately. Her ' letter to the nation ' is an abomination and several orders of magnitude worse than Blair's Dodgy Dossier. She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies. Even one from a PM would have been unthinkable even three years ago yet the abandon with she uses them in that letter lays the foundation for a political crisis starting next April far worse than anything we've experienced so far.

    Even the Red Bus only had one lie in it. Even Blair's Dodgy Dossier was predicated on the concept of truth which is why he went to the lengths he did to create evidence to prove claims. May's casual assault on the concept of objective truth in that letter is now full Trumpian. The parliamentary system makes her much easier to remove than a US president. Whether it's now the '22 route, cabinet revolt, the House itself or the deep state she needs to go and go immediately. She's clearly crossed an internal psychological barrier and with the power she holds such unhinged people are very dangerous.

    Someone somewhere needs to do their duty.

    May is doing her duty, sadly the same cannot be said for so many grandstanding MPs who are putting their own egos, ideological purity or petty party politics first ahead of the good of the country
    If it is a shit deal, against the national interest, it is hardly grandstanding to point that out.

    It's cowardice not to.
    It is the best Deal Brexiteers will get, if this Deal is voted down the only likely alternatives are permanent customs union under Corbyn, maybe permanent single market too due to the SNP or No Deal which will sooner or later lead to EUref2 and most likely Remain and no Brexit at all
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 22,041
    FF43 said:

    All I have to say about Brexit today is this. I don't call for prime ministerial resignations lightly but Theresa May needs to resign and resign immediately. Her ' letter to the nation ' is an abomination and several orders of magnitude worse than Blair's Dodgy Dossier. She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies. Even one from a PM would have been unthinkable even three years ago yet the abandon with she uses them in that letter lays the foundation for a political crisis starting next April far worse than anything we've experienced so far.

    Even the Red Bus only had one lie in it. Even Blair's Dodgy Dossier was predicated on the concept of truth which is why he went to the lengths he did to create evidence to prove claims. May's casual assault on the concept of objective truth in that letter is now full Trumpian. The parliamentary system makes her much easier to remove than a US president. Whether it's now the '22 route, cabinet revolt, the House itself or the deep state she needs to go and go immediately. She's clearly crossed an internal psychological barrier and with the power she holds such unhinged people are very dangerous.

    Someone somewhere needs to do their duty.

    Theresa May's letter repeats the broken promises of the Leave campaign. For it to work, Remainers would have to accept arguments that repelled them last time and Leavers will have to pretend those promises weren't broken.
    Where can you see this letter to the nation
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 44,609
    edited November 2018

    Dura_Ace said:

    She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies.

    She is quite Trump-like in her shameless, bare faced lying.
    The ' letter to the nation ' is the cross over moment for me. At least we all know Boris Johnson is a pound shop Frank Underwood so he is a much less dangerous sociopath than May now is. Her dutiful Head of Geography/Rotary Club Chairwoman schtick gives her cultural access he doesn't have. Harold Shipman was a GP. The psychological state needed to write that ' letter to the nation ' coupled with her residual trust make her very very dangerous. She needs to be terminated imeadiately.

    Mps won't support her so she's trying to get public support, the principal is sound. We've heard the letter repeats the lies of the leave campaign, what specifically is she lying shamelessly about? And perhaps dial down the aggression and amateur mental analysis.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 11,312
    Such anger on Brexit (and I can well understand it) that it's even spilled over onto Marr. Surely this thing has to be called off. Any fool can see it will be disaster in perpetuty.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 24,366
    edited November 2018

    Dura_Ace said:

    She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies.

    She is quite Trump-like in her shameless, bare faced lying.
    The ' letter to the nation ' is the cross over moment for me. At least we all know Boris Johnson is a pound shop Frank Underwood so he is a much less dangerous sociopath than May now is. Her dutiful Head of Geography/Rotary Club Chairwoman schtick gives her cultural access he doesn't have. Harold Shipman was a GP. The psychological state needed to write that ' letter to the nation ' coupled with her residual trust make her very very dangerous. She needs to be terminated imeadiately.

    On a matter as important as this the PM has every right to address the nation. You are over reacting and I doubt your view is shared across the public

    She is far away the most popular politician for Brexit in the Country
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 28,754

    All I have to say about Brexit today is this. I don't call for prime ministerial resignations lightly but Theresa May needs to resign and resign immediately. Her ' letter to the nation ' is an abomination and several orders of magnitude worse than Blair's Dodgy Dossier. She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies. Even one from a PM would have been unthinkable even three years ago yet the abandon with she uses them in that letter lays the foundation for a political crisis starting next April far worse than anything we've experienced so far.

    Even the Red Bus only had one lie in it. Even Blair's Dodgy Dossier was predicated on the concept of truth which is why he went to the lengths he did to create evidence to prove claims. May's casual assault on the concept of objective truth in that letter is now full Trumpian. The parliamentary system makes her much easier to remove than a US president. Whether it's now the '22 route, cabinet revolt, the House itself or the deep state she needs to go and go immediately. She's clearly crossed an internal psychological barrier and with the power she holds such unhinged people are very dangerous.

    Someone somewhere needs to do their duty.

    She’s an incredibly cynical politician and has outmanoeuvred everyone so far. I disagree that she’s crossed an internal barrier - she’s always been like this.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 44,609
    Roger said:

    Such anger on Brexit (and I can well understand it) that it's even spilled over onto Marr. Surely this thing has to be called off. Any fool can see it will be disaster in perpetuty.

    It's almost there. When ultra Brexiteers would rather stay then if no deal is ruled out then remaining is the final course left.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 8,666
    edited November 2018
    kle4 said:

    FF43 said:

    All I have to say about Brexit today is this. I don't call for prime ministerial resignations lightly but Theresa May needs to resign and resign immediately. Her ' letter to the nation ' is an abomination and several orders of magnitude worse than Blair's Dodgy Dossier. She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies. Even one from a PM would have been unthinkable even three years ago yet the abandon with she uses them in that letter lays the foundation for a political crisis starting next April far worse than anything we've experienced so far.

    Even the Red Bus only had one lie in it. Even Blair's Dodgy Dossier was predicated on the concept of truth which is why he went to the lengths he did to create evidence to prove claims. May's casual assault on the concept of objective truth in that letter is now full Trumpian. The parliamentary system makes her much easier to remove than a US president. Whether it's now the '22 route, cabinet revolt, the House itself or the deep state she needs to go and go immediately. She's clearly crossed an internal psychological barrier and with the power she holds such unhinged people are very dangerous.

    Someone somewhere needs to do their duty.

    Theresa May's letter repeats the broken promises of the Leave campaign.
    How appropriate given remainers and new dealers are repeating the lame tactics of the leave campaign in making their preferred vague outcome seem easy and it being reliant on the EU doing what we want.
    Agree with this.

    Back to the letter. I don't see May's Leaver arguments appealing to Remainers at all. So this isn't a letter to the nation. It's a letter to Leavers to tell them the deal isn't as bad as they think it is. Some will believe her; some won't. But we're talking about a proportion of half of the electorate. Say 25% to 30%.

    I think she would do better with a We Are Where We Are approach.
  • Roger said:

    Such anger on Brexit (and I can well understand it) that it's even spilled over onto Marr. Surely this thing has to be called off. Any fool can see it will be disaster in perpetuty.

    Unfortunately calling it off may not calm matters
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    All I have to say about Brexit today is this. I don't call for prime ministerial resignations lightly but Theresa May needs to resign and resign immediately. Her ' letter to the nation ' is an abomination and several orders of magnitude worse than Blair's Dodgy Dossier. She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies. Even one from a PM would have been unthinkable even three years ago yet the abandon with she uses them in that letter lays the foundation for a political crisis starting next April far worse than anything we've experienced so far.

    Even the Red Bus only had one lie in it. Even Blair's Dodgy Dossier was predicated on the concept of truth which is why he went to the lengths he did to create evidence to prove claims. May's casual assault on the concept of objective truth in that letter is now full Trumpian. The parliamentary system makes her much easier to remove than a US president. Whether it's now the '22 route, cabinet revolt, the House itself or the deep state she needs to go and go immediately. She's clearly crossed an internal psychological barrier and with the power she holds such unhinged people are very dangerous.

    Someone somewhere needs to do their duty.

    May is doing her duty, sadly the same cannot be said for so many grandstanding MPs who are putting their own egos, ideological purity or petty party politics first ahead of the good of the country
    If it is a shit deal, against the national interest, it is hardly grandstanding to point that out.

    It's cowardice not to.
    It is the best Deal Brexiteers will get, if this Deal is voted down the only likely alternatives are permanent customs union under Corbyn, maybe permanent single market too due to the SNP or No Deal which will sooner or later lead to EUref2 and most likely Remain and no Brexit at all
    Only if/when the deal is voted down does the option of "no deal" actually appear. Therefore it is desirable to delay the vote as long as possible to make a "no deal" Brexit less likely to be able to be stopped by the remoaners. Once out of the EU, a "re-join/stay-out" referendum would be more difficult for the europhiles to win.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 2,701
    daodao said:

    kle4 said:

    daodao said:

    This gives a flavour of where the DUP/Johnson are going on this. #1 Pretend negotiations are ongoing. #2 Frame it as seeking to improve the deal not opposing it. #3 Force May to postpone the meaningful vote rather than defeat her and force her to go to the scheduled December EUCO seeking more concessions. Burns another 3 weeks.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/24/dup-prepared-to-bring-down-government-may-brexit-deal

    There is only 4 months before 29/3/19. It is desirable to prevaricate over dealing with the obstacles so as to get to the finishing line, even if that means no deal. Once out of the EU, the conditions for re-joining won't be the existing membership terms, and selling "re-join" will be harder than selling "remain".
    Thats true, but I'd call it as 50/50 we wont leave at all. No deal is default so it is not as easy to avoid as some pretend but mps really don't want it and with negotiation a con given the time left remain becomes very real especially with some ultra leavers openly admitting they'd rather do that than deal.

    But my gods it's going to be silly, even for this, for the next few weeks. Those relying on markets to spook what needs to be 100 or more mps (huge numbers of Tory rebels and some number of Labour ones) to see a deal through are fooling themselves.
    The "meaningful" vote needs to be delayed as long as possible, to minimise the alternative courses of action. It will be a humiliating disaster for the UK to have had a referendum and invoked Article 50 as a result, only to rescind those decisions.
    That scenario must be odds on now I think. Parliament is going to reject the deal by a very substantial margin, it will be impossible to bring it back with purely cosmetic alterations even if the EU agreed to them, which it probably won't. The leaves either no deal or a new referendum and since Parliament will not countenance no deal a referendum is the only way forward. A GE can be discounted because the Tories won't vote for one and anyway it would not solve the issue.
  • All I have to say about Brexit today is this. I don't call for prime ministerial resignations lightly but Theresa May needs to resign and resign immediately. Her ' letter to the nation ' is an abomination and several orders of magnitude worse than Blair's Dodgy Dossier. She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies. Even one from a PM would have been unthinkable even three years ago yet the abandon with she uses them in that letter lays the foundation for a political crisis starting next April far worse than anything we've experienced so far.

    Even the Red Bus only had one lie in it. Even Blair's Dodgy Dossier was predicated on the concept of truth which is why he went to the lengths he did to create evidence to prove claims. May's casual assault on the concept of objective truth in that letter is now full Trumpian. The parliamentary system makes her much easier to remove than a US president. Whether it's now the '22 route, cabinet revolt, the House itself or the deep state she needs to go and go immediately. She's clearly crossed an internal psychological barrier and with the power she holds such unhinged people are very dangerous.

    Someone somewhere needs to do their duty.

    She’s an incredibly cynical politician and has outmanoeuvred everyone so far. I disagree that she’s crossed an internal barrier - she’s always been like this.

    Indeed.

  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 1,730
    malcolmg said:

    FF43 said:

    All I have to say about Brexit today is this. I don't call for prime ministerial resignations lightly but Theresa May needs to resign and resign immediately. Her ' letter to the nation ' is an abomination and several orders of magnitude worse than Blair's Dodgy Dossier. She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies. Even one from a PM would have been unthinkable even three years ago yet the abandon with she uses them in that letter lays the foundation for a political crisis starting next April far worse than anything we've experienced so far.

    Even the Red Bus only had one lie in it. Even Blair's Dodgy Dossier was predicated on the concept of truth which is why he went to the lengths he did to create evidence to prove claims. May's casual assault on the concept of objective truth in that letter is now full Trumpian. The parliamentary system makes her much easier to remove than a US president. Whether it's now the '22 route, cabinet revolt, the House itself or the deep state she needs to go and go immediately. She's clearly crossed an internal psychological barrier and with the power she holds such unhinged people are very dangerous.

    Someone somewhere needs to do their duty.

    Theresa May's letter repeats the broken promises of the Leave campaign. For it to work, Remainers would have to accept arguments that repelled them last time and Leavers will have to pretend those promises weren't broken.
    Where can you see this letter to the nation
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/nov/25/brexit-eu-summit-deal-theresa-may-leaders-meet-for-emergency-summit-to-sign-off-uks-withdrawal-agreement-politics-live (scroll down to 9.26, then perhaps keep scrolling if you want to stay in a good mood).

  • mattmatt Posts: 2,926
    daodao said:

    This gives a flavour of where the DUP/Johnson are going on this. #1 Pretend negotiations are ongoing. #2 Frame it as seeking to improve the deal not opposing it. #3 Force May to postpone the meaningful vote rather than defeat her and force her to go to the scheduled December EUCO seeking more concessions. Burns another 3 weeks.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/24/dup-prepared-to-bring-down-government-may-brexit-deal

    There is only 4 months before 29/3/19. It is desirable to prevaricate over dealing with the obstacles so as to get to the finishing line, even if that means no deal. Once out of the EU, the conditions for re-joining won't be the existing membership terms, and selling "re-join" will be harder than selling "remain".
    The line from Moscow is unsurprising.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 11,312
    Does Mrs May get her dosh back from the DUP?
  • kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies.

    She is quite Trump-like in her shameless, bare faced lying.
    The ' letter to the nation ' is the cross over moment for me. At least we all know Boris Johnson is a pound shop Frank Underwood so he is a much less dangerous sociopath than May now is. Her dutiful Head of Geography/Rotary Club Chairwoman schtick gives her cultural access he doesn't have. Harold Shipman was a GP. The psychological state needed to write that ' letter to the nation ' coupled with her residual trust make her very very dangerous. She needs to be terminated imeadiately.

    Mps won't support her so she's trying to get public support, the principal is sound. We've heard the letter repeats the lies of the leave campaign, what specifically is she lying shamelessly about? And perhaps dial down the aggression and amateur mental analysis.
    Spot on
  • Roger said:

    Does Mrs May get her dosh back from the DUP?

    Not paid it all over yet
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 55,950
    Foster on Marr confirms she will review confidence and supply deal with the Tories if her Deal goes through but she does not think she can get it through.

    Does not confirm either she will support May's Tories on confidence and supply even if her Deal is voted down but would have to look at the circumstances. Suggests could be a general election in January if the DUP vote down May's government
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 22,041
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nandy on Sky waffling on about how she cannot support the Deal unless it keeps sufficient EU standards and that some Leave voters in her seat back No Deal.


    Now going on about 'citizens assemblies' and delaying Brexit for a 'process of dialogue'. Clearly clueless about what she wants to do other than backing extension of Article 50

    The deal really has gone down like a stinker. Remainers by and large won't touch it now as remain is possible and everyone can find something in it to say it is not good enough as a pretext for seeking remain or No deal.

    Today is a farce and 2 years of effort have been an absolute waste.
    This is all the EU will agree bar further caving in on permanent customs union and/or permanent single market membership.

    There is no better Deal available for Leavers bar No Deal which with just 32% of voters backing it according to Survation likely just leads back to Remain sooner or later
    Yes indeed.

    And if we remain after all this? For the first time ever I am considering not voting in something. Not because it would be undemocratic, but just because why waste so much energy on politics when it is all so useless and meaningless.
    Politics has always been useless apart from the politicians enhancing their bank books. We ought to just admit we have been swindled by the morons who run this country and opt to Remain, that is the only good deal for the plebs, even if many of them are too thick to realise it.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 8,586
    edited November 2018

    Dura_Ace said:

    She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies.

    She is quite Trump-like in her shameless, bare faced lying.
    Have you read the document? Can you itemise these lies?
    I must admit I am struggling to find 'lie after lie'. There's a surfeit of vague generalisations for sure, and "out of the common agricultural policy, that has failed our farmers" seems a stretch, but lie after lie...?

    The anti-deal brigade need to be careful they cry wolf too loud and often.
  • I see we're at the whiny self pity stage (tbf always a bubbling ingredient of previous stages).

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 8,586
    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies.

    She is quite Trump-like in her shameless, bare faced lying.
    The ' letter to the nation ' is the cross over moment for me. At least we all know Boris Johnson is a pound shop Frank Underwood so he is a much less dangerous sociopath than May now is. Her dutiful Head of Geography/Rotary Club Chairwoman schtick gives her cultural access he doesn't have. Harold Shipman was a GP. The psychological state needed to write that ' letter to the nation ' coupled with her residual trust make her very very dangerous. She needs to be terminated imeadiately.

    Mps won't support her so she's trying to get public support, the principal is sound. We've heard the letter repeats the lies of the leave campaign, what specifically is she lying shamelessly about? And perhaps dial down the aggression and amateur mental analysis.
    "We've heard the letter repeats... ?? Why not read it before commenting?

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 22,041
    Just read her letter and it is indeed a load of bollox, political hogwash and usual "I am doing it all for the people" lies.
  • malcolmg said:

    FF43 said:

    All I have to say about Brexit today is this. I don't call for prime ministerial resignations lightly but Theresa May needs to resign and resign immediately. Her ' letter to the nation ' is an abomination and several orders of magnitude worse than Blair's Dodgy Dossier. She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies. Even one from a PM would have been unthinkable even three years ago yet the abandon with she uses them in that letter lays the foundation for a political crisis starting next April far worse than anything we've experienced so far.

    Even the Red Bus only had one lie in it. Even Blair's Dodgy Dossier was predicated on the concept of truth which is why he went to the lengths he did to create evidence to prove claims. May's casual assault on the concept of objective truth in that letter is now full Trumpian. The parliamentary system makes her much easier to remove than a US president. Whether it's now the '22 route, cabinet revolt, the House itself or the deep state she needs to go and go immediately. She's clearly crossed an internal psychological barrier and with the power she holds such unhinged people are very dangerous.

    Someone somewhere needs to do their duty.

    Theresa May's letter repeats the broken promises of the Leave campaign. For it to work, Remainers would have to accept arguments that repelled them last time and Leavers will have to pretend those promises weren't broken.
    Where can you see this letter to the nation
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 22,041
    Polruan said:

    malcolmg said:

    FF43 said:

    All I have to say about Brexit today is this. I don't call for prime ministerial resignations lightly but Theresa May needs to resign and resign immediately. Her ' letter to the nation ' is an abomination and several orders of magnitude worse than Blair's Dodgy Dossier. She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies. Even one from a PM would have been unthinkable even three years ago yet the abandon with she uses them in that letter lays the foundation for a political crisis starting next April far worse than anything we've experienced so far.

    Even the Red Bus only had one lie in it. Even Blair's Dodgy Dossier was predicated on the concept of truth which is why he went to the lengths he did to create evidence to prove claims. May's casual assault on the concept of objective truth in that letter is now full Trumpian. The parliamentary system makes her much easier to remove than a US president. Whether it's now the '22 route, cabinet revolt, the House itself or the deep state she needs to go and go immediately. She's clearly crossed an internal psychological barrier and with the power she holds such unhinged people are very dangerous.

    Someone somewhere needs to do their duty.

    Theresa May's letter repeats the broken promises of the Leave campaign. For it to work, Remainers would have to accept arguments that repelled them last time and Leavers will have to pretend those promises weren't broken.
    Where can you see this letter to the nation
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/nov/25/brexit-eu-summit-deal-theresa-may-leaders-meet-for-emergency-summit-to-sign-off-uks-withdrawal-agreement-politics-live (scroll down to 9.26, then perhaps keep scrolling if you want to stay in a good mood).

    Cheers

  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 1,391
    edited November 2018
    I still think the deal will go through eventually but much might hinge on the ECJ decision around whether article 50 can be unilaterally withdrawn.

    There is a good argument from the Spectator that for policy reasons the court might see fit to answer that question in the negative. The EU would not want Article 50 to become a ransom notice any time a Member State feels aggrieved about something. If it becomes something that only the EU can agree to withdraw, I don’t see why they wouldnt attach conditions to it - I.e the loss of an odd opt-out here or there. It then becomes much of a harder sell.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 44,609

    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies.

    She is quite Trump-like in her shameless, bare faced lying.
    The ' letter to the nation ' is the cross over moment for me. At least we all know Boris Johnson is a pound shop Frank Underwood so he is a much less dangerous sociopath than May now is. Her dutiful Head of Geography/Rotary Club Chairwoman schtick gives her cultural access he doesn't have. Harold Shipman was a GP. The psychological state needed to write that ' letter to the nation ' coupled with her residual trust make her very very dangerous. She needs to be terminated imeadiately.

    Mps won't support her so she's trying to get public support, the principal is sound. We've heard the letter repeats the lies of the leave campaign, what specifically is she lying shamelessly about? And perhaps dial down the aggression and amateur mental analysis.
    "We've heard the letter repeats... ?? Why not read it before commenting?

    I will, but until I do I was interested what lies people saw there and mentioned the only general comment about it's contents that had so far been mentioned. I didn't say that comment was right.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 11,312
    My God I miss Blair's articulacy
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 55,950
    edited November 2018
    Tony Blair on Marr now says the only way to unite the country going forward is to have EUref2 and to decide between a 'proper Brexit' as backed by Boris Johnson etc or to stay in the EU after all.

    As people who have agitated for Brexit say 'this Deal is not Brexit' we need to vote again on whether we want to accept their Brexit or not.


    Staying tied to Europe's rules is a 'pointless Brexit', the alternative Brexit is a 'painful Brexit.' Says a majority for EUref2 'will get there' in the House of Commons and expects Labour ultimately to back it. Parliament will not vote for this Deal and no desire from Tories for a general election so only alternative is EUref2
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,028

    Dura_Ace said:

    She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies.

    She is quite Trump-like in her shameless, bare faced lying.
    Have you read the document? Can you itemise these lies?
    I must admit I am struggling to find 'lie after lie'. There's a surfeit of vague generalisations for sure, and "out of the common agricultural policy, that has failed our farmers" seems a stretch, but lie after lie...?

    The anti-deal brigade need to be careful they cry wolf too loud and often.
    I can't find any out and out lies either. Nor any convincing reasons to back her deal. And definitely no new information. A bit of a waste of time, basically.
  • I see we're at the whiny self pity stage (tbf always a bubbling ingredient of previous stages).



    That Tweet epitomises the Buccaneers’ world view. The job of all sovereign, independent countries is to make life easier for the UK - even Ireland, despite us taking a decision that is totally opposed to their interests. No wonder they have unleashed such a shit-storm on us. They are completely ignorant of the real world.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies.

    She is quite Trump-like in her shameless, bare faced lying.
    Have you read the document? Can you itemise these lies?
    I must admit I am struggling to find 'lie after lie'. There's a surfeit of vague generalisations for sure, and "out of the common agricultural policy, that has failed our farmers" seems a stretch, but lie after lie...?

    The anti-deal brigade need to be careful they cry wolf too loud and often.
    I can't find any out and out lies either. Nor any convincing reasons to back her deal. And definitely no new information. A bit of a waste of time, basically.
    I doubt very much that it is aimed at anyone on PB
  • Nicola has moved to Norway from a second referendum in a demonstration of pragmatic politics. She probably has identified a majority position in the HOC.

    Blair on Marr just turning the nation against a second referendum
  • All I have to say about Brexit today is this. I don't call for prime ministerial resignations lightly but Theresa May needs to resign and resign immediately. Her ' letter to the nation ' is an abomination and several orders of magnitude worse than Blair's Dodgy Dossier. She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies. Even one from a PM would have been unthinkable even three years ago yet the abandon with she uses them in that letter lays the foundation for a political crisis starting next April far worse than anything we've experienced so far.

    Even the Red Bus only had one lie in it. Even Blair's Dodgy Dossier was predicated on the concept of truth which is why he went to the lengths he did to create evidence to prove claims. May's casual assault on the concept of objective truth in that letter is now full Trumpian. The parliamentary system makes her much easier to remove than a US president. Whether it's now the '22 route, cabinet revolt, the House itself or the deep state she needs to go and go immediately. She's clearly crossed an internal psychological barrier and with the power she holds such unhinged people are very dangerous.

    Someone somewhere needs to do their duty.

    Perhaps you could be good enough to itemise these "lies" so we can all take a view on it.

    No reply yet.......how curious.......The Brexiteers and Remoaners are cut from the same cloth - repeat a lie often enough and it will be believed. Take the whole Gibraltar "capitulation":

  • Roger said:

    My God I miss Blair's articulacy

    He is losing the case for a second referendum minute by minute. He is not self aware
  • So currently the case against the deal is being fronted by Blair and IDS. It is difficult to imagine two people with worse reputations in the general public.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 11,312

    Roger said:

    My God I miss Blair's articulacy

    He is losing the case for a second referendum minute by minute. He is not self aware
    I couldn't agree with you less. He's making me feel that things are so ludicrous a campaign of civil disobedience is likely
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 55,950
    daodao said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    All I have to say about Brexit today is this. I don't call for prime ministerial resignations lightly but Theresa May needs to resign and resign immediately. Her ' letter to the nation ' is an abomination and several orders of magnitude worse than Blair's Dodgy Dossier. She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies. Even one from a PM would have been unthinkable even three years ago yet the abandon with she uses them in that letter lays the foundation for a political crisis starting next April far worse than anything we've experienced so far.

    Even the Red Bus only had one lie in it. Even Blair's Dodgy Dossier was predicated on the concept of truth which is why he went to the lengths he did to create evidence to prove claims. May's casual assault on the concept of objective truth in that letter is now full Trumpian. The parliamentary system makes her much easier to remove than a US president. Whether it's now the '22 route, cabinet revolt, the House itself or the deep state she needs to go and go immediately. She's clearly crossed an internal psychological barrier and with the power she holds such unhinged people are very dangerous.

    Someone somewhere needs to do their duty.

    May is doing her duty, sadly the same cannot be said for so many grandstanding MPs who are putting their own egos, ideological purity or petty party politics first ahead of the good of the country
    If it is a shit deal, against the national interest, it is hardly grandstanding to point that out.

    It's cowardice not to.
    It is the best Deal Brexiteers will get, if this Deal is voted down the only likely alternatives are permanent customs union under Corbyn, maybe permanent single market too due to the SNP or No Deal which will sooner or later lead to EUref2 and most likely Remain and no Brexit at all
    Only if/when the deal is voted down does the option of "no deal" actually appear. Therefore it is desirable to delay the vote as long as possible to make a "no deal" Brexit less likely to be able to be stopped by the remoaners. Once out of the EU, a "re-join/stay-out" referendum would be more difficult for the europhiles to win.
    May will call the vote on the deal next month, that leaves 4 months for EUphiles and Remainers to push EUref2 if the deal is voted down before we leave the EU
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 22,041
    HYUFD said:

    Tony Blair on Marr now says the only way to unite the country going forward is to have EUref2 and to decide between a 'proper Brexit' as backed by Boris Johnson etc or to stay in the EU after all.

    As people who have agitated for Brexit say 'this Deal is not Brexit' we need to vote again on whether we want to accept their Brexit or not.


    Staying tied to Europe's rules is a 'pointless Brexit', the alternative Brexit is a 'painful Brexit.' Says a majority for EUref2 'will get there' in the House of Commons and expects Labour ultimately to back it. Parliament will not vote for this Deal and no desire from Tories for a general election so only alternative is EUref2

    Amazing thing for me is how could it have taken an army of people 2 years for this garbage, it just gives everything to EU, we do as we are told and takes 600 pages to say so, unbelievable political gobbledygook.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 55,950
    Blair says he will accept a vote for a No Deal Brexit if it wins a final referendum v Remain
  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 1,730
    So, taking into account the letter and other information we have seen this morning:

    We will have full control over our waters (which we will use to agree reciprocal access, like under the existing arrangements)
    There will be no hard border in Ireland and we won’t be under any kind of European court jurisdiction (but only once we’ve found a way to not have a hard border without adopting any rules which are interpreted by European courts, which we’ve made no progress on during 2 years)

    The apostrophe in “taxpayer’s” is probably the most offensive part though.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 22,041

    All I have to say about Brexit today is this. I don't call for prime ministerial resignations lightly but Theresa May needs to resign and resign immediately. Her ' letter to the nation ' is an abomination and several orders of magnitude worse than Blair's Dodgy Dossier. She flings lie after lie after lie about in just two sides of A4. Demonstrable and total lies. Even one from a PM would have been unthinkable even three years ago yet the abandon with she uses them in that letter lays the foundation for a political crisis starting next April far worse than anything we've experienced so far.

    Even the Red Bus only had one lie in it. Even Blair's Dodgy Dossier was predicated on the concept of truth which is why he went to the lengths he did to create evidence to prove claims. May's casual assault on the concept of objective truth in that letter is now full Trumpian. The parliamentary system makes her much easier to remove than a US president. Whether it's now the '22 route, cabinet revolt, the House itself or the deep state she needs to go and go immediately. She's clearly crossed an internal psychological barrier and with the power she holds such unhinged people are very dangerous.

    Someone somewhere needs to do their duty.

    Perhaps you could be good enough to itemise these "lies" so we can all take a view on it.

    No reply yet.......how curious.......The Brexiteers and Remoaners are cut from the same cloth - repeat a lie often enough and it will be believed. Take the whole Gibraltar "capitulation":

    Bare faced lie.
This discussion has been closed.