Presumably Labour decided not to risk reuniting the government side behind Theresa May. You can disagree with the tactic but it is hardly inexplicable.
Presumably Labour decided not to risk reuniting the government side behind Theresa May. You can disagree with the tactic but it is hardly inexplicable.
Uniting the Tories behind the PM is all Corbyn achieved
Can anyone answer a puzzle about the now popular Norway or Norway + solution? Let us say that a WA is done in due course on the basis that we remain as if in EU until the end of the transition period, after which we continue in the single market and CU, either as members of EFTA or effectively shadowing its terms. That's all fine, and is my personal preferred solution. BUT how could the EU agree to any of that without repeating the Irish backstop in the WA to cover circumstances in which we might want to leave that arrangement and move on to Canada + or whatever. Doesn't Norway just repeat the problem, which is that the EU does not intend us ever ever ever to be able to decide the Irish border question unilaterally? Which would end us exactly where we are now.
I don't have an answer. Does anyone?
The EU would likely demand permanent Norway plus Customs Union as the price of any new Deal with full free movement ie permanent BINO.
It would be fractionally better for the economy than May's Deal but would infuriate most Leavers and UKIP or a new Farage and Bannon party would be on 20 to 25% of the vote within 6 months
The situation is febrile. If she can find an honest whip who tells her that her deal is going down by 200 votes will she really insist on one final public humiliation?
There’s rumours that the ERG will now back the deal.
Yesterday’s intervention by the advocate general has focused minds.
Some maybe. The rest are in too deep. It's the worst thing ever to happen remember?
And they cannot pass it even if the ERG mostly back it.
Can anyone answer a puzzle about the now popular Norway or Norway + solution? Let us say that a WA is done in due course on the basis that we remain as if in EU until the end of the transition period, after which we continue in the single market and CU, either as members of EFTA or effectively shadowing its terms. That's all fine, and is my personal preferred solution. BUT how could the EU agree to any of that without repeating the Irish backstop in the WA to cover circumstances in which we might want to leave that arrangement and move on to Canada + or whatever. Doesn't Norway just repeat the problem, which is that the EU does not intend us ever ever ever to be able to decide the Irish border question unilaterally? Which would end us exactly where we are now.
I don't have an answer. Does anyone?
The EU would likely demand permanent Norway plus Customs Union as the price of any new Deal with full free movement ie permanent BINO.
It would be fractionally better for the economy than May's Deal but would infuriate most Leavers and UKIP or a new Farage and Bannon party would be on 20 to 25% of the vote within 6 months
You really are losing touch with reality if you think Farage and Bannon would achieve 20% to 25%
Presumably Labour decided not to risk reuniting the government side behind Theresa May. You can disagree with the tactic but it is hardly inexplicable.
There are four more days of debate on Brexit. It's good to see that the Leader of the Opposition is able to concentrate on more than one political problem at a time. That's something the government struggles with.
Presumably Labour decided not to risk reuniting the government side behind Theresa May. You can disagree with the tactic but it is hardly inexplicable.
I think that's fair. Labour only gets to defeat the government with Tory rebel and/or DUP support, and potential rebels won't be encouraged by seeing Corbyn trying to make partisan points on their backs.
I read somewhere that he wanted to leave with no deal and then 'use the transition' to negotiate what we want. Not appearing to appreciate that no deal meant no transition in which to do that negotiation. But that seems so dumb that I suspect fake news.
Big question for me with DD is, is he clueless because he was sidelined or was he sidelined because he was clueless?
Oh it was fake news, it was true, David Davis really is that dumb.
But no-deal is the default outcome is the WA is voted down. How does making it amendable change that?
I think the way it works is that the government has to return to parliament to say what it’s going to do next. As a result of the Grieve amendment to the standing orders, the motion to accept that statement becomes amendable, so the house would either amend it to order the government to act in a certain way, or perhaps to instruct the government to lay certain legislation (which could itself then be amended). It’s pretty uncharted territory but based on yesterday’s event, if the PM refuses to comply she/he could then be found in contempt.
I don’t know what happens if a PM is found in contempt, but the Commons still refuses to NC the government.
Wouldn't the government be obliged to tell the EU that the WA has not been accepted, so depending on the EU's willingness to resume negotiations there would be either a managed no-deal exit or resumption of discussions with the March 29th deadline pushed into the future. In the latter case there would have to be reconsideration of the backstop.
If both Corbyn and May rock up to Brussels singing off the same hymn sheet about Brexit (They aren't actually very far apart) then the EU might modify the agreement (Exclude the FoM changes; create the backstop as an endstate with SM for the whole of the UK & no doubt more fees attached... )
BUT
France, Netherlands, Denmark might object over fishing. I don't think Ireland would. Spain might reraise Gibraltar.
It's not as simple, even if the commons agrees on the path forward, as some think might it is to pivot to ultra-soft Brexit.
And not asking on the legal advice. Way beyond him
Wait for the question from Gregory Campbell of the DUP.
Not the point really
Yes it is given your beloved TM has no majority without them.
I really am past caring about the DUP. If they want a GE so be it
Why should those pesky Ulster folk have the outrageous belief they should be able to elect the people who shape their laws?
This is the 21st century. Why should Northern Ireland have democracy? Colonies with no representatives are all the rage these days.
The economic security of workers in GB is more important than the rights of the Northern Irish to go to the ballot box and elect people who make their laws.
I said on Saturday I’d expect (No Deal) Leave to win again.
I’m playing the long game.
We Leave without a deal and we Rejoin within a decade.
Leavers cannot say they weren’t denied democracy and the rest of us can point and laugh at them when things go mammary glands up.
No Deal will destroy them the way the 1939/1940 destroyed the appeasers.
No deal followed by rejoin is the only viable path. May's deal is dead. Norway is balls that pleases almost nobody. Nobody can remember what the fuck Chequers was even about. Remain without the cleansing flames of pas d'entente will cause leavers to have even more sand in their manginas.
No Deal means potentially the worst economic crisis since the 1930s and Scotland voting for independence, even May has said she will let Parliament decide rather than lead the UK into that.
Plus what would we be rejoining too? At most it would likely be single market and customs union
Following on from my previous thought, what do Remainers intend to say in any upcoming referendum about immigration? I have seen no signs of fresh thinking on that front.
Following on from my previous thought, what do Remainers intend to say in any upcoming referendum about immigration? I have seen no signs of fresh thinking on that front.
I think about .5% of people on either side have budged an inch in 2 years. It's all reliant on circumstance.
Immigration is not a problem if government actually addresses it. Stop counting students, an utterly ridiculous situation. Like Belgium, insist that incomers from EU states find work within three months or they have to leave. Like France, insist that it is a qualification to do most jobs ( not picking fruit) to achieve a reasonable level in the language. In our case, say IELTS 5.5. Educate our young people to do the jobs. But the Tories don't want to do this because their paymasters want cheap labour they don't have to train.
Can anyone answer a puzzle about the now popular Norway or Norway + solution? Let us say that a WA is done in due course on the basis that we remain as if in EU until the end of the transition period, after which we continue in the single market and CU, either as members of EFTA or effectively shadowing its terms. That's all fine, and is my personal preferred solution. BUT how could the EU agree to any of that without repeating the Irish backstop in the WA to cover circumstances in which we might want to leave that arrangement and move on to Canada + or whatever. Doesn't Norway just repeat the problem, which is that the EU does not intend us ever ever ever to be able to decide the Irish border question unilaterally? Which would end us exactly where we are now.
Not really surprising. I always doubted that 50% of the population were irrational. Ignorant of the facts and easily persuaded by ill intentioned newspapers certainly but not malevolent crackpots.
A new referendum is now a democratic necessity. The world is changing fast and for the young to have their freedoms to work and travel curtailed by the illiberal values of the elderly cannot be reasonable however much Theresa May claims to be the voice of the people. Mary Whitehouse used to claim the same and she too caused untold societal damage.
Can anyone answer a puzzle about the now popular Norway or Norway + solution? Let us say that a WA is done in due course on the basis that we remain as if in EU until the end of the transition period, after which we continue in the single market and CU, either as members of EFTA or effectively shadowing its terms. That's all fine, and is my personal preferred solution. BUT how could the EU agree to any of that without repeating the Irish backstop in the WA to cover circumstances in which we might want to leave that arrangement and move on to Canada + or whatever. Doesn't Norway just repeat the problem, which is that the EU does not intend us ever ever ever to be able to decide the Irish border question unilaterally? Which would end us exactly where we are now.
I don't have an answer. Does anyone?
Peace in Northern Ireland > theoretical ability to exercise sovereignty > any trade deal you name.
The UK government at any time could junk the backstop, and then try to negotiate with the EU for some kind of trade deal. But they are not going to, because they have decided that any sovereignty they may choose to exercise is not more important than the continuing peace in Northern Ireland.
Now, whether you think this is the right set of priorities really depends on whether you are a sensible, pragmatic type, or if you are Jacob Rees-Mogg or Mark Francois.
Can anyone answer a puzzle about the now popular Norway or Norway + solution? Let us say that a WA is done in due course on the basis that we remain as if in EU until the end of the transition period, after which we continue in the single market and CU, either as members of EFTA or effectively shadowing its terms. That's all fine, and is my personal preferred solution. BUT how could the EU agree to any of that without repeating the Irish backstop in the WA to cover circumstances in which we might want to leave that arrangement and move on to Canada + or whatever. Doesn't Norway just repeat the problem, which is that the EU does not intend us ever ever ever to be able to decide the Irish border question unilaterally? Which would end us exactly where we are now.
I don't have an answer. Does anyone?
The EU would likely demand permanent Norway plus Customs Union as the price of any new Deal with full free movement ie permanent BINO.
It would be fractionally better for the economy than May's Deal but would infuriate most Leavers and UKIP or a new Farage and Bannon party would be on 20 to 25% of the vote within 6 months
You really are losing touch with reality if you think Farage and Bannon would achieve 20% to 25%
If free movement is left fully in place a populist anti immigration party would soon match totals for far right parties in Europe like FN, the AfD and Lega Nord
And not asking on the legal advice. Way beyond him
Wait for the question from Gregory Campbell of the DUP.
Not the point really
Yes it is given your beloved TM has no majority without them.
I really am past caring about the DUP. If they want a GE so be it
Why should those pesky Ulster folk have the outrageous belief they should be able to elect the people who shape their laws?
This is the 21st century. Why should Northern Ireland have democracy? Colonies with no representatives are all the rage these days.
Northern Ireland business, farmers, and the political community all endorse TM deal as a fantastic opportunity for Ireland leaving the DUP on their own and losing their core support
Not really surprising. I always doubted that 50% of the population were irrational. Ignorant of the facts and easily persuaded by newspapers certainly but not malevolent crackpots.
A new referendum is now a democratic necessity. The world is changing fast and for the young to have their freedoms to work and travel by the illiberal values of the elderly cannot be reasonable however much Theresa May claims to be the voice of the people. Mary Whitehouse used to claim the same and she too caused untold societal damage.
If the world is changing fast should we schedule a referendum on EU membership every three years?
I see Jeremy Corbyn is now chickening out of the Brexit debate. However, the Remain media will now give him the same hard time about it they did with May in the last election.
I read somewhere that he wanted to leave with no deal and then 'use the transition' to negotiate what we want. Not appearing to appreciate that no deal meant no transition in which to do that negotiation. But that seems so dumb that I suspect fake news.
Big question for me with DD is, is he clueless because he was sidelined or was he sidelined because he was clueless?
Oh it was fake news, it was true, David Davis really is that dumb.
Can anyone answer a puzzle about the now popular Norway or Norway + solution? Let us say that a WA is done in due course on the basis that we remain as if in EU until the end of the transition period, after which we continue in the single market and CU, either as members of EFTA or effectively shadowing its terms. That's all fine, and is my personal preferred solution. BUT how could the EU agree to any of that without repeating the Irish backstop in the WA to cover circumstances in which we might want to leave that arrangement and move on to Canada + or whatever. Doesn't Norway just repeat the problem, which is that the EU does not intend us ever ever ever to be able to decide the Irish border question unilaterally? Which would end us exactly where we are now.
I don't have an answer. Does anyone?
The EU would likely demand permanent Norway plus Customs Union as the price of any new Deal with full free movement ie permanent BINO.
It would be fractionally better for the economy than May's Deal but would infuriate most Leavers and UKIP or a new Farage and Bannon party would be on 20 to 25% of the vote within 6 months
You really are losing touch with reality if you think Farage and Bannon would achieve 20% to 25%
If free movement is left fully in place a populist anti immigration party would soon match totals for far right parties in Europe like FN, the AfD and Lega Nord
The Norway + CU solution solves the backstop by enshrining it into perpetuity. But the EU might well be uncomfortable with it as an endstate.
Is that right though?
It only solves the border while we're in it. If we were to subsequently change tack (due to our domestic politics) and seek to move to something more diverged the border issue would re-surface.
So surely 'Norway plus' is a PD thing at this point and we still leave under the current WA which has the Backstop.
Not really surprising. I always doubted that 50% of the population were irrational. Ignorant of the facts and easily persuaded by newspapers certainly but not malevolent crackpots.
A new referendum is now a democratic necessity. The world is changing fast and for the young to have their freedoms to work and travel by the illiberal values of the elderly cannot be reasonable however much Theresa May claims to be the voice of the people. Mary Whitehouse used to claim the same and she too caused untold societal damage.
If the world is changing fast should we schedule a referendum on EU membership every three years?
Well exactly. A vote may be needed as parliament will fail to agree anything otherwise but the idea you have to revisit a vote when polls change is hostage to fortune. No government should last a full term, no issue ever settled by vote.
I can see why the Gov't didn't want to publish the legal advice. If a backstop dispute arises, the EU can simply point to our own Gov'ts legal advice. I wonder if the DUP might consider bringing the Gov't down now.
Does Theresa May have any interests outside of politics? All I can find is that she enjoys following cricket, looking at cookbooks (sic), and watching a US police series on TV. She needs to do something...
Busy woman. The country isn't going to just ruin itself you know.
Can anyone answer a puzzle about the now popular Norway or Norway + solution? Let us say that a WA is done in due course on the basis that we remain as if in EU until the end of the transition period, after which we continue in the single market and CU, either as members of EFTA or effectively shadowing its terms. That's all fine, and is my personal preferred solution. BUT how could the EU agree to any of that without repeating the Irish backstop in the WA to cover circumstances in which we might want to leave that arrangement and move on to Canada + or whatever. Doesn't Norway just repeat the problem, which is that the EU does not intend us ever ever ever to be able to decide the Irish border question unilaterally? Which would end us exactly where we are now.
I don't have an answer. Does anyone?
The EU would likely demand permanent Norway plus Customs Union as the price of any new Deal with full free movement ie permanent BINO.
It would be fractionally better for the economy than May's Deal but would infuriate most Leavers and UKIP or a new Farage and Bannon party would be on 20 to 25% of the vote within 6 months
You really are losing touch with reality if you think Farage and Bannon would achieve 20% to 25%
If free movement is left fully in place a populist anti immigration party would soon match totals for far right parties in Europe like FN, the AfD and Lega Nord
No it wouldn't we have had just about the same level of (EU & non-EU) immigration for years and are likely to have the same amount, with different compositions, for years to come. Ain't no one taking to the street about it. They haven't to date, and they aren't about to know. If they really, really hate the foreigners they have UKIP to vote for.
And not asking on the legal advice. Way beyond him
Wait for the question from Gregory Campbell of the DUP.
Not the point really
Yes it is given your beloved TM has no majority without them.
I really am past caring about the DUP. If they want a GE so be it
Why should those pesky Ulster folk have the outrageous belief they should be able to elect the people who shape their laws?
This is the 21st century. Why should Northern Ireland have democracy? Colonies with no representatives are all the rage these days.
The economic security of workers in GB is more important than the rights of the Northern Irish to go to the ballot box and elect people who make their laws.
Much more of this and they will be electing representatives to the EU parliament and the dail.
And not asking on the legal advice. Way beyond him
Wait for the question from Gregory Campbell of the DUP.
Not the point really
Yes it is given your beloved TM has no majority without them.
I really am past caring about the DUP. If they want a GE so be it
Why should those pesky Ulster folk have the outrageous belief they should be able to elect the people who shape their laws?
This is the 21st century. Why should Northern Ireland have democracy? Colonies with no representatives are all the rage these days.
The economic security of workers in GB is more important than the rights of the Northern Irish to go to the ballot box and elect people who make their laws.
Much more of this and they will be electing representatives to the EU parliament and the dail.
That would be a better solution than making them vassals!
The Norway + CU solution solves the backstop by enshrining it into perpetuity. But the EU might well be uncomfortable with it as an endstate.
Is that right though?
It only solves the border while we're in it. If we were to subsequently change tack (due to our domestic politics) and seek to move to something more diverged the border issue would re-surface.
So surely 'Norway plus' is a PD thing at this point and we still leave under the current WA which has the Backstop.
Norway + CU will be a permenent end state, not some halfway house.
And not asking on the legal advice. Way beyond him
Wait for the question from Gregory Campbell of the DUP.
Not the point really
Yes it is given your beloved TM has no majority without them.
I really am past caring about the DUP. If they want a GE so be it
Why should those pesky Ulster folk have the outrageous belief they should be able to elect the people who shape their laws?
This is the 21st century. Why should Northern Ireland have democracy? Colonies with no representatives are all the rage these days.
The economic security of workers in GB is more important than the rights of the Northern Irish to go to the ballot box and elect people who make their laws.
Much more of this and they will be electing representatives to the EU parliament and the dail.
And not asking on the legal advice. Way beyond him
Wait for the question from Gregory Campbell of the DUP.
Not the point really
Yes it is given your beloved TM has no majority without them.
I really am past caring about the DUP. If they want a GE so be it
Why should those pesky Ulster folk have the outrageous belief they should be able to elect the people who shape their laws?
This is the 21st century. Why should Northern Ireland have democracy? Colonies with no representatives are all the rage these days.
The economic security of workers in GB is more important than the rights of the Northern Irish to go to the ballot box and elect people who make their laws.
NI has the right to self determination and has determined to be part of the United Kingdom. It is thus not a colony.
If Faisal is right on that (and I have no way of judging exactly whether he is or not), then the customs arrangements are a nightmare for the UK. They would be the same as Turkey. Outside the SM, inside a CU - not the CU - and therefore unable to prevent all those countries with an EU FTA importing directly into the UK without reciprocal arrangements unless we have our own FTA with them.
As I have mentioned in the past it is why Turkey said it would have to pull out of it's CU with the EU if the EU signed an FTA with the US.
Always been a strong remainer but believed that the referendum result should be honoured.
Now we face No Deal I am changing my mind. I have come round to thinking that if we go down the No Deal route and it is an economic disaster we will still see no contrition from the Brexiteers they will simply shrug and say it wasn't planned properly or some other lame excuse thereby pretending it has nothing to do with them.
I now hope we somehow get a chance to democratically overturn the first result via a second referendum. The Brexiteers will of course howl but I have concluded that nothing is ever going to satisfy the Brexit hardliners so we may as well stop trying.
And not asking on the legal advice. Way beyond him
Wait for the question from Gregory Campbell of the DUP.
Not the point really
Yes it is given your beloved TM has no majority without them.
I really am past caring about the DUP. If they want a GE so be it
Why should those pesky Ulster folk have the outrageous belief they should be able to elect the people who shape their laws?
This is the 21st century. Why should Northern Ireland have democracy? Colonies with no representatives are all the rage these days.
Northern Ireland business, farmers, and the political community all endorse TM deal as a fantastic opportunity for Ireland leaving the DUP on their own and losing their core support
Presumably Labour decided not to risk reuniting the government side behind Theresa May. You can disagree with the tactic but it is hardly inexplicable.
Uniting the Tories behind the PM is all Corbyn achieved
For half an hour. But whoop. The government is dying and it's deal is dead. Corbyn can ease off with no difficulty the Tories aren't coming back from this. Pile on 2019 GE.
Always been a strong remainer but believed that the referendum result should be honoured.
Now we face No Deal I am changing my mind. I have come round to thinking that if we go down the No Deal route and it is an economic disaster we will still see no contrition from the Brexiteers they will simply shrug and say it isn't planned properly or some other lame excuse thereby pretending it has nothing to do with them.
I now hope we somehow get to vote again and the first result is democratically overturned. Nothing is ever going to satisfy the Brexit hardliners so we may as well stop trying.
It is not the hardliners you have to worry about. It is the 17 million or so others who will rightly feel that democracy doesn't work any more.
And not asking on the legal advice. Way beyond him
Wait for the question from Gregory Campbell of the DUP.
Not the point really
Yes it is given your beloved TM has no majority without them.
I really am past caring about the DUP. If they want a GE so be it
Why should those pesky Ulster folk have the outrageous belief they should be able to elect the people who shape their laws?
This is the 21st century. Why should Northern Ireland have democracy? Colonies with no representatives are all the rage these days.
Northern Ireland business, farmers, and the political community all endorse TM deal as a fantastic opportunity for Ireland leaving the DUP on their own and losing their core support
And not asking on the legal advice. Way beyond him
Wait for the question from Gregory Campbell of the DUP.
Not the point really
Yes it is given your beloved TM has no majority without them.
I really am past caring about the DUP. If they want a GE so be it
Why should those pesky Ulster folk have the outrageous belief they should be able to elect the people who shape their laws?
This is the 21st century. Why should Northern Ireland have democracy? Colonies with no representatives are all the rage these days.
The economic security of workers in GB is more important than the rights of the Northern Irish to go to the ballot box and elect people who make their laws.
Much more of this and they will be electing representatives to the EU parliament and the dail.
That would be a better solution than making them vassals!
Then the DUP will have nothing to complain about come reunification.
And not asking on the legal advice. Way beyond him
Wait for the question from Gregory Campbell of the DUP.
Not the point really
Yes it is given your beloved TM has no majority without them.
I really am past caring about the DUP. If they want a GE so be it
Why should those pesky Ulster folk have the outrageous belief they should be able to elect the people who shape their laws?
This is the 21st century. Why should Northern Ireland have democracy? Colonies with no representatives are all the rage these days.
Northern Ireland business, farmers, and the political community all endorse TM deal as a fantastic opportunity for Ireland leaving the DUP on their own and losing their core support
Great let them vote for it.
Scrapping democracy is NEVER acceptable.
Hence the argument for a second referendum.
But Big G is correct. A no deal scenario would be disastrous for the DUP. Deservedly.
Always been a strong remainer but believed that the referendum result should be honoured.
Now we face No Deal I am changing my mind. I have come round to thinking that if we go down the No Deal route and it is an economic disaster we will still see no contrition from the Brexiteers they will simply shrug and say it isn't planned properly or some other lame excuse thereby pretending it has nothing to do with them.
I now hope we somehow get to vote again and the first result is democratically overturned. Nothing is ever going to satisfy the Brexit hardliners so we may as well stop trying.
It is not the hardliners you have to worry about. It is the 17 million or so others who will rightly feel that democracy doesn't work any more.
You can't project from a handful of fanatics to the views of millions.
The process is not via a border in the Irish Sea. Most important line is "NI and GB are not in separate customs territories". But a Remain journalist ignores this.
What we have had since the referendum is a full court press of every establishment journalist, including from the public broadcasters, cherry picking information to push every line they can to sabotage Brexit. In concert with them is Remain MPs coming up with six impossible tests so they can say the deal is bad, in order to push for a Remain option that also fails those six tests. And the Remain media deliberately giving them cover.
The plan for all this is to allow ongoing unlimited EU immigration to change the demographics of the country to create a pro EU-majority, because the Remain elite dislikes the British public and wants to marginalize their views.
I can see why the Gov't didn't want to publish the legal advice. If a backstop dispute arises, the EU can simply point to our own Gov'ts legal advice. I wonder if the DUP might consider bringing the Gov't down now.
I'm sure they already did, whatever they might have said publicly.
Caroline Lucas: "the date on the Attorney General's advice suggests that the Cabinet did not get any formal legal advice from him before 13 November - the day MPs first asked for it to be published."
So... when the govt said that there was "Nothing to see", they were telling the truth because it had not yet been written? The mind boggles.... they charge down the path of Brexit with no idea of any legal implications or advice?
Do you really think that the PM had not received advice from the AG before the 13th November? This is demonstrating the disaster of the precedent yesterday. Who would want to give legal advice when it is going to have a CSI team all over it again and again looking for any conspiracy they can find.
I had assumed that the PM received legal advice all the way through this process. I expected no less. So where is it? One document less than a month old? That is it?
This is reminiscent of the Brexit impact assessments - 57 of them - that, when publication was demanded, turned out not to exist.
I think the motion required publication of the "full and final" advice - key word being "final" (and probably designed to be deliverable rather than requiring a note of every meeting in the last 2 years)
And not asking on the legal advice. Way beyond him
Wait for the question from Gregory Campbell of the DUP.
Not the point really
Yes it is given your beloved TM has no majority without them.
I really am past caring about the DUP. If they want a GE so be it
Why should those pesky Ulster folk have the outrageous belief they should be able to elect the people who shape their laws?
This is the 21st century. Why should Northern Ireland have democracy? Colonies with no representatives are all the rage these days.
The economic security of workers in GB is more important than the rights of the Northern Irish to go to the ballot box and elect people who make their laws.
NI has the right to self determination and has determined to be part of the United Kingdom. It is thus not a colony.
Yes and their elected representatives are against this.
However under the backstop NIs regulations will not be set by Westminster they will be set by the EU. And there will be no legal route for NI voters to either vote for changes to their regulations, or to vote to regain their right to elect who changes their regulations.
I read somewhere that he wanted to leave with no deal and then 'use the transition' to negotiate what we want. Not appearing to appreciate that no deal meant no transition in which to do that negotiation. But that seems so dumb that I suspect fake news.
Big question for me with DD is, is he clueless because he was sidelined or was he sidelined because he was clueless?
Oh it was fake news, it was true, David Davis really is that dumb.
The transition period would presumably be between now and March 29th next year.
Sorry to have to point out the obvious but if we leave with no deal there is no transition period. A transition period only exists to allow an FTA to be discussed if a WA of some sort has been agreed.
Caroline Lucas: "the date on the Attorney General's advice suggests that the Cabinet did not get any formal legal advice from him before 13 November - the day MPs first asked for it to be published."
So... when the govt said that there was "Nothing to see", they were telling the truth because it had not yet been written? The mind boggles.... they charge down the path of Brexit with no idea of any legal implications or advice?
Do you really think that the PM had not received advice from the AG before the 13th November? This is demonstrating the disaster of the precedent yesterday. Who would want to give legal advice when it is going to have a CSI team all over it again and again looking for any conspiracy they can find.
I had assumed that the PM received legal advice all the way through this process. I expected no less. So where is it? One document less than a month old? That is it?
This is reminiscent of the Brexit impact assessments - 57 of them - that, when publication was demanded, turned out not to exist.
And not asking on the legal advice. Way beyond him
Wait for the question from Gregory Campbell of the DUP.
Not the point really
Yes it is given your beloved TM has no majority without them.
I really am past caring about the DUP. If they want a GE so be it
Why should those pesky Ulster folk have the outrageous belief they should be able to elect the people who shape their laws?
This is the 21st century. Why should Northern Ireland have democracy? Colonies with no representatives are all the rage these days.
Northern Ireland business, farmers, and the political community all endorse TM deal as a fantastic opportunity for Ireland leaving the DUP on their own and losing their core support
Great let them vote for it.
Scrapping democracy is NEVER acceptable.
Who has said anything about scrapping democracy
Northern Ireland is the text book example of the probelms of 'democracy' when faced with religious, or quasi religious, parties.
And not asking on the legal advice. Way beyond him
Wait for the question from Gregory Campbell of the DUP.
Not the point really
Yes it is given your beloved TM has no majority without them.
I really am past caring about the DUP. If they want a GE so be it
Why should those pesky Ulster folk have the outrageous belief they should be able to elect the people who shape their laws?
This is the 21st century. Why should Northern Ireland have democracy? Colonies with no representatives are all the rage these days.
The economic security of workers in GB is more important than the rights of the Northern Irish to go to the ballot box and elect people who make their laws.
NI has the right to self determination and has determined to be part of the United Kingdom. It is thus not a colony.
Caroline Lucas: "the date on the Attorney General's advice suggests that the Cabinet did not get any formal legal advice from him before 13 November - the day MPs first asked for it to be published."
So... when the govt said that there was "Nothing to see", they were telling the truth because it had not yet been written? The mind boggles.... they charge down the path of Brexit with no idea of any legal implications or advice?
I suppose informal or verbal advice might have been given, which would only be recorded in Cabinet briefing notes or subsequent minutes
It is clear that the culture of govt secrecy needs some adjustment
The process is not via a border in the Irish Sea. Most important line is "NI and GB are not in separate customs territories". But a Remain journalist ignores this.
What we have had since the referendum is a full court press of every establishment journalist, including from the public broadcasters, cherry picking information to push every line they can to sabotage Brexit. In concert with them is Remain MPs coming up with six impossible tests so they can say the deal is bad, in order to push for a Remain option that also fails those six tests. And the Remain media deliberately giving them cover.
The plan for all this is to allow ongoing unlimited EU immigration to change the demographics of the country to create a pro EU-majority, because the Remain elite dislikes the British public and wants to marginalize their views.
If Faisal is right on that (and I have no way of judging exactly whether he is or not), then the customs arrangements are a nightmare for the UK. They would be the same as Turkey. Outside the SM, inside a CU - not the CU - and therefore unable to prevent all those countries with an EU FTA importing directly into the UK without reciprocal arrangements unless we have our own FTA with them.
As I have mentioned in the past it is why Turkey said it would have to pull out of it's CU with the EU if the EU signed an FTA with the US.
I don't think we need to worry about the EU being too free trade than us.
But even if they did, we can pull out of the arrangement as a sovereign nation. The exit mechanism agreed in the deal is just to provide gentleman's agreement comfort to the EU, which is the most they can get under international law.
And not asking on the legal advice. Way beyond him
Wait for the question from Gregory Campbell of the DUP.
Not the point really
Yes it is given your beloved TM has no majority without them.
I really am past caring about the DUP. If they want a GE so be it
Why should those pesky Ulster folk have the outrageous belief they should be able to elect the people who shape their laws?
This is the 21st century. Why should Northern Ireland have democracy? Colonies with no representatives are all the rage these days.
Northern Ireland business, farmers, and the political community all endorse TM deal as a fantastic opportunity for Ireland leaving the DUP on their own and losing their core support
Great let them vote for it.
Scrapping democracy is NEVER acceptable.
Who has said anything about scrapping democracy
If someone in Northern Ireland wants a Single Market rule they are subjected to changing them at which election can they vote for that?
Always been a strong remainer but believed that the referendum result should be honoured.
Now we face No Deal I am changing my mind. I have come round to thinking that if we go down the No Deal route and it is an economic disaster we will still see no contrition from the Brexiteers they will simply shrug and say it isn't planned properly or some other lame excuse thereby pretending it has nothing to do with them.
I now hope we somehow get to vote again and the first result is democratically overturned. Nothing is ever going to satisfy the Brexit hardliners so we may as well stop trying.
It is not the hardliners you have to worry about. It is the 17 million or so others who will rightly feel that democracy doesn't work any more.
You can't project from a handful of fanatics to the views of millions.
I'm not. It is not a hard Brexit that people voted for, just a Brexit. Hard or soft, I doubt they are going to take kindly to being told there is no Brexit. Unlike you it seems I actually talk to people who voted Leave and know how they would feel if they were told it was all off. If you want to kill democracy in this country go right ahead. But don't say you weren't warned.
26 may state a theoretical possibility of the EU asking the panel to eject GB from the customs arrangement and keep NI, but 27 (in shot) confidently opines that the panel would tell the EU to go spin.
So, it gives the EU no unilateral way out of the UK wide customs arrangements either.
And not asking on the legal advice. Way beyond him
Wait for the question from Gregory Campbell of the DUP.
Not the point really
Yes it is given your beloved TM has no majority without them.
I really am past caring about the DUP. If they want a GE so be it
Why should those pesky Ulster folk have the outrageous belief they should be able to elect the people who shape their laws?
This is the 21st century. Why should Northern Ireland have democracy? Colonies with no representatives are all the rage these days.
Northern Ireland business, farmers, and the political community all endorse TM deal as a fantastic opportunity for Ireland leaving the DUP on their own and losing their core support
Great let them vote for it.
Scrapping democracy is NEVER acceptable.
Hence the argument for a second referendum.
But Big G is correct. A no deal scenario would be disastrous for the DUP. Deservedly.
A second referendum before you have enacted the first is not democracy. No matter how much you might keep trying to claim otherwise.
Not really surprising. I always doubted that 50% of the population were irrational. Ignorant of the facts and easily persuaded by ill intentioned newspapers certainly but not malevolent crackpots.
A new referendum is now a democratic necessity. The world is changing fast and for the young to have their freedoms to work and travel curtailed by the illiberal values of the elderly cannot be reasonable however much Theresa May claims to be the voice of the people. Mary Whitehouse used to claim the same and she too caused untold societal damage.
So in summary you think leave voters are not evil just stupid, and your answer to this is to get them to vote again because young people are liberal (always have been) and old people are illiberal.
I don’t know about TM about you certainly are the voice of the people, if that’s remainers living in the South of France!
Which has been discussed for some time. This is not any kind of surprise.
The extent of the bad news was tricky to discern unless one was well versed in the law. Cox's opinion carries weight and reveals more than previously. And that 'more than previously' ain't good for the Gov't.
Leavers at some point will start asking themselves why they made no attempt to forge a consensus. But not yet, I fancy.
And we know why many remainers decided instead of trying to honour the result and be part of the process of negotiating our exit from the EU, they spent the time salting the earth and begging the EU to give us a punishment beating.
Honour the result? Why? It was obvious from day 1 that Leaving was a worse outcome than Remaining. How exactly am I (or other Remainers) supposed to get enthusiastic about that?
If any group has been begging for punishment beatings and salting the Earth it is the more extreme Leavers. As an extreme Remainer I view Brexit as a punishment beating.
And thankfully karma is finally delivering the hard Brexiters their just desserts. So often they seem to be the type who starts talking to you on the bus and makes you unusually eager to catch up on your emails and pray that every traffic light turns green.
Can anyone answer a puzzle about the now popular Norway or Norway + solution? Let us say that a WA is done in due course on the basis that we remain as if in EU until the end of the transition period, after which we continue in the single market and CU, either as members of EFTA or effectively shadowing its terms. That's all fine, and is my personal preferred solution. BUT how could the EU agree to any of that without repeating the Irish backstop in the WA to cover circumstances in which we might want to leave that arrangement and move on to Canada + or whatever. Doesn't Norway just repeat the problem, which is that the EU does not intend us ever ever ever to be able to decide the Irish border question unilaterally? Which would end us exactly where we are now.
I don't have an answer. Does anyone?
Yes, it does. It also fails Labour's six tests. But Labour are Remain hypocrites and so are the media so they will do it and no one will cover it.
Following on from my previous thought, what do Remainers intend to say in any upcoming referendum about immigration? I have seen no signs of fresh thinking on that front.
Following on from my previous thought, what do Remainers intend to say in any upcoming referendum about immigration? I have seen no signs of fresh thinking on that front.
I think about .5% of people on either side have budged an inch in 2 years. It's all reliant on circumstance.
Immigration is not a problem if government actually addresses it. Stop counting students, an utterly ridiculous situation. Like Belgium, insist that incomers from EU states find work within three months or they have to leave. Like France, insist that it is a qualification to do most jobs ( not picking fruit) to achieve a reasonable level in the language. In our case, say IELTS 5.5. Educate our young people to do the jobs. But the Tories don't want to do this because their paymasters want cheap labour they don't have to train.
This a comedy of the truth. I'm note sure youve ever met serious politicians who do serious things.
Weird. I'm confused as to how the government would see that as anything but a wrecking amendment. Maybe they'll try to secure something which they then claim technically meets the wording even if it doesn't obey the spirit
And not asking on the legal advice. Way beyond him
Wait for the question from Gregory Campbell of the DUP.
Not the point really
Yes it is given your beloved TM has no majority without them.
I really am past caring about the DUP. If they want a GE so be it
Why should those pesky Ulster folk have the outrageous belief they should be able to elect the people who shape their laws?
This is the 21st century. Why should Northern Ireland have democracy? Colonies with no representatives are all the rage these days.
Northern Ireland business, farmers, and the political community all endorse TM deal as a fantastic opportunity for Ireland leaving the DUP on their own and losing their core support
Great let them vote for it.
Scrapping democracy is NEVER acceptable.
Hence the argument for a second referendum.
But Big G is correct. A no deal scenario would be disastrous for the DUP. Deservedly.
A second referendum before you have enacted the first is not democracy. No matter how much you might keep trying to claim otherwise.
Democracy is government implementing what the people want. If, having seen the reality of the travesty that leavers are trying to thrust upon us, people sensibly and reasonably decide "thanks, but no thanks", that would be a perfect example of democracy in practice.
It'll have the support of Hoey, the DUP and the ERG. Not so much the rest of the house. Still it provides the Gov't with a good idea of the number of ultra-Brexiteers.
Leavers at some point will start asking themselves why they made no attempt to forge a consensus. But not yet, I fancy.
And we know why many remainers decided instead of trying to honour the result and be part of the process of negotiating our exit from the EU, they spent the time salting the earth and begging the EU to give us a punishment beating.
Honour the result? Why? It was obvious from day 1 that Leaving was a worse outcome than Remaining. How exactly am I (or other Remainers) supposed to get enthusiastic about that?
If any group has been begging for punishment beatings and salting the Earth it is the more extreme Leavers. As an extreme Remainer I view Brexit as a punishment beating.
And thankfully karma is finally delivering the hard Brexiters their just desserts. So often they seem to be the type who starts talking to you on the bus and makes you unusually eager to catch up on your emails and pray that every traffic light turns green.
And the Remainer is the snobbish metropolitan who thinks he is above having a conversation with a member of the filthy working classes and doesn't feel any notion of respect or courtesy to him.
Weird. I'm confused as to how the government would see that as anything but a wrecking amendment. Maybe they'll try to secure something which they then claim technically meets the wording even if it doesn't obey the spirit
And what happens if the motion passes with that amendment attached. is the deal not approved? What if the EU refuses to even talk?
unless this is all choreographed, and whatever the merits of the issue, that's a really confusing position for us to be left in.
Can anyone answer a puzzle about the now popular Norway or Norway + solution? Let us say that a WA is done in due course on the basis that we remain as if in EU until the end of the transition period, after which we continue in the single market and CU, either as members of EFTA or effectively shadowing its terms. That's all fine, and is my personal preferred solution. BUT how could the EU agree to any of that without repeating the Irish backstop in the WA to cover circumstances in which we might want to leave that arrangement and move on to Canada + or whatever. Doesn't Norway just repeat the problem, which is that the EU does not intend us ever ever ever to be able to decide the Irish border question unilaterally? Which would end us exactly where we are now.
I don't have an answer. Does anyone?
The EU would likely demand permanent Norway plus Customs Union as the price of any new Deal with full free movement ie permanent BINO.
It would be fractionally better for the economy than May's Deal but would infuriate most Leavers and UKIP or a new Farage and Bannon party would be on 20 to 25% of the vote within 6 months
You really are losing touch with reality if you think Farage and Bannon would achieve 20% to 25%
If free movement is left fully in place a populist anti immigration party would soon match totals for far right parties in Europe like FN, the AfD and Lega Nord
No it wouldn't we have had just about the same level of (EU & non-EU) immigration for years and are likely to have the same amount, with different compositions, for years to come. Ain't no one taking to the street about it. They haven't to date, and they aren't about to know. If they really, really hate the foreigners they have UKIP to vote for.
UKIP or a Farage alternative will shoot up in the polls if free movement is kept, the only reason they have fallen since 2015 is both the Tories and Labour promised to leave the single market and end free movement and the Tories in particular focused higher border controls and more skills based immigration
Always been a strong remainer but believed that the referendum result should be honoured.
Now we face No Deal I am changing my mind. I have come round to thinking that if we go down the No Deal route and it is an economic disaster we will still see no contrition from the Brexiteers they will simply shrug and say it isn't planned properly or some other lame excuse thereby pretending it has nothing to do with them.
I now hope we somehow get to vote again and the first result is democratically overturned. Nothing is ever going to satisfy the Brexit hardliners so we may as well stop trying.
It is not the hardliners you have to worry about. It is the 17 million or so others who will rightly feel that democracy doesn't work any more.
You can't project from a handful of fanatics to the views of millions.
I'm not. It is not a hard Brexit that people voted for, just a Brexit. Hard or soft, I doubt they are going to take kindly to being told there is no Brexit. Unlike you it seems I actually talk to people who voted Leave and know how they would feel if they were told it was all off. If you want to kill democracy in this country go right ahead. But don't say you weren't warned.
David Davis. No, not the brightest. But not a weirdo either. Sort of chap you could have a pint with and a bit of a mumble about this and that. The truly top tier politicians tend to have both those qualities, a big intellect and a lack of weirdness. Which got me asking myself, do any of the notable believers in Leave have that combination? Not Johnson, he doesn't believe in it. Not Fox, he's no Einstein. Ditto Leadsom and Mordaunt. Not Gove, he's massively clever but a bit weird. Not Mogg, he's no fool but he's beyond weird. Not Cash et ilk, mostly manage to be both stupid AND weird. Etc. Anyways I came to the conclusion that the most impressive politician who truly believes in Leave is ... yes I'm afraid so ... Nigel Farage.
And not asking on the legal advice. Way beyond him
Wait for the question from Gregory Campbell of the DUP.
Not the point really
Yes it is given your beloved TM has no majority without them.
I really am past caring about the DUP. If they want a GE so be it
Why should those pesky Ulster folk have the outrageous belief they should be able to elect the people who shape their laws?
This is the 21st century. Why should Northern Ireland have democracy? Colonies with no representatives are all the rage these days.
Northern Ireland business, farmers, and the political community all endorse TM deal as a fantastic opportunity for Ireland leaving the DUP on their own and losing their core support
Great let them vote for it.
Scrapping democracy is NEVER acceptable.
Hence the argument for a second referendum.
But Big G is correct. A no deal scenario would be disastrous for the DUP. Deservedly.
A second referendum before you have enacted the first is not democracy. No matter how much you might keep trying to claim otherwise.
Democracy is government implementing what the people want. If, having seen the reality of the travesty that leavers are trying to thrust upon us, people sensibly and reasonably decide "thanks, but no thanks", that would be a perfect example of democracy in practice.
And when they vote no deal? You’ll be happy then I suppose.
Not really surprising. I always doubted that 50% of the population were irrational. Ignorant of the facts and easily persuaded by ill intentioned newspapers certainly but not malevolent crackpots.
A new referendum is now a democratic necessity. The world is changing fast and for the young to have their freedoms to work and travel curtailed by the illiberal values of the elderly cannot be reasonable however much Theresa May claims to be the voice of the people. Mary Whitehouse used to claim the same and she too caused untold societal damage.
So in summary you think leave voters are not evil just stupid, and your answer to this is to get them to vote again because young people are liberal (always have been) and old people are illiberal.
I don’t know about TM about you certainly are the voice of the people, if that’s remainers living in the South of France!
It was the influence of France and Paris in particular.....
Seeing all the English working in bars and restaurants with other EU nationals firstly made me jealous that I wasn't eighteen again and then angry that miserable old codgers were unknowingly or uncaringly depriving these young people the education and time of their lives.
Leavers at some point will start asking themselves why they made no attempt to forge a consensus. But not yet, I fancy.
And we know why many remainers decided instead of trying to honour the result and be part of the process of negotiating our exit from the EU, they spent the time salting the earth and begging the EU to give us a punishment beating.
You are literally channelling Hitler with this stab in the back myth.
Next you'll be blaming international Jewry.
Oh wait some other Leavers got there before with their vile anti Soros stuff.
That escalated quickly and is entirely unwarranted. You've never seen me make either anti semitic remarks or anti soros remarks.
UKIP or a Farage alternative will shoot up in the polls if free movement is kept, the only reason they have fallen since 2015 is both the Tories and Labour promised to leave the single market and end free movement and the Tories in particular focused higher border controls and more skills based immigration
You keep threatening us with "splitting the Tory vote" and forgetting that most of us don't consider that much of a threat.
Comments
Corbyn has united the opposition, making it irrelevant whether the Tories are united or not, which anyway they are not.
It would be fractionally better for the economy than May's Deal but would infuriate most Leavers and UKIP or a new Farage and Bannon party would be on 20 to 25% of the vote within 6 months
I mean the reasons why Northern Ireland gets special treatment with the Brexit deal is
1) Northern Ireland has a border with another EU country, unlike Scotland.
2) Northern Ireland has a history of political violence, Scotland does not.
And they cannot pass it even if the ERG mostly back it.
This is the 21st century. Why should Northern Ireland have democracy? Colonies with no representatives are all the rage these days.
The economic security of workers in GB is more important than the rights of the Northern Irish to go to the ballot box and elect people who make their laws.
Plus what would we be rejoining too? At most it would likely be single market and customs union
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1070288151208443904
A new referendum is now a democratic necessity. The world is changing fast and for the young to have their freedoms to work and travel curtailed by the illiberal values of the elderly cannot be reasonable however much Theresa May claims to be the voice of the people. Mary Whitehouse used to claim the same and she too caused untold societal damage.
The UK government at any time could junk the backstop, and then try to negotiate with the EU for some kind of trade deal. But they are not going to, because they have decided that any sovereignty they may choose to exercise is not more important than the continuing peace in Northern Ireland.
Now, whether you think this is the right set of priorities really depends on whether you are a sensible, pragmatic type, or if you are Jacob Rees-Mogg or Mark Francois.
It only solves the border while we're in it. If we were to subsequently change tack (due to our domestic politics) and seek to move to something more diverged the border issue would re-surface.
So surely 'Norway plus' is a PD thing at this point and we still leave under the current WA which has the Backstop.
As I have mentioned in the past it is why Turkey said it would have to pull out of it's CU with the EU if the EU signed an FTA with the US.
Now we face No Deal I am changing my mind. I have come round to thinking that if we go down the No Deal route and it is an economic disaster we will still see no contrition from the Brexiteers they will simply shrug and say it wasn't planned properly or some other lame excuse thereby pretending it has nothing to do with them.
I now hope we somehow get a chance to democratically overturn the first result via a second referendum. The Brexiteers will of course howl but I have concluded that nothing is ever going to satisfy the Brexit hardliners so we may as well stop trying.
Scrapping democracy is NEVER acceptable.
But Big G is correct. A no deal scenario would be disastrous for the DUP. Deservedly.
What we have had since the referendum is a full court press of every establishment journalist, including from the public broadcasters, cherry picking information to push every line they can to sabotage Brexit. In concert with them is Remain MPs coming up with six impossible tests so they can say the deal is bad, in order to push for a Remain option that also fails those six tests. And the Remain media deliberately giving them cover.
The plan for all this is to allow ongoing unlimited EU immigration to change the demographics of the country to create a pro EU-majority, because the Remain elite dislikes the British public and wants to marginalize their views.
Just get fans of the Old Firm to do it.
However under the backstop NIs regulations will not be set by Westminster they will be set by the EU. And there will be no legal route for NI voters to either vote for changes to their regulations, or to vote to regain their right to elect who changes their regulations.
That is a colony.
A point (the first part) that Barry Gardner is making on tv as I type
But even if they did, we can pull out of the arrangement as a sovereign nation. The exit mechanism agreed in the deal is just to provide gentleman's agreement comfort to the EU, which is the most they can get under international law.
26 may state a theoretical possibility of the EU asking the panel to eject GB from the customs arrangement and keep NI, but 27 (in shot) confidently opines that the panel would tell the EU to go spin.
So, it gives the EU no unilateral way out of the UK wide customs arrangements either.
I don’t know about TM about you certainly are the voice of the people, if that’s remainers living in the South of France!
https://twitter.com/CharlotteGRose/status/1070299411333476352
unless this is all choreographed, and whatever the merits of the issue, that's a really confusing position for us to be left in.
The backstop is even more of a constitutional, politcal and legal outrage than any of us imagined.
It was the influence of France and Paris in particular.....
Seeing all the English working in bars and restaurants with other EU nationals firstly made me jealous that I wasn't eighteen again and then angry that miserable old codgers were unknowingly or uncaringly depriving these young people the education and time of their lives.
"............. terminate the protocol and seeks to rejoin the EU " could get remainers on board. It might even have the EU's agreement..