Just a word of warning, Isnt that the judge of Fox News the one that is regularly spouts absolute unsubstantiated BS, so much so even Fox News have had to say woo hold on buddy.
I’ve forgotten. What is the Remainer opposition to the WA based on? Other than the fact it doesn’t abandon Brexit? That it doesn’t offer a better deal, that remainers always argued was unachievable anyway?
Strange, I thought Leave.eu were an incompetent risible shower. Now it seems they were the dastardly masterminds behind the Facebook campaigns 'wot wunnit' what a late vindication.
And what is the point of applying an amendment to a vote that is 1) contradictory to the vote passing 2) with an extra condition which by definition falls when the main vote fails?
I’ve forgotten. What is the Remainer opposition to the WA based on? Other than the fact it doesn’t abandon Brexit? That it doesn’t offer a better deal, that remainers always argued was unachievable anyway?
A silly contrarian piece. How is Parliament not a political elite?
But they haven't. The political elite working to stifle Brexit is an imaginary story Brexiteers tell each other when they are forced to confront their own inadequacies and the intellectual bankcruptcy of their creed
I wish there was an influential political elite with the clout to thwart Brexit.
Amongst the plethora of vox pops on why people voted the way they did a hugely fat man in his mid 20s said he was a Leaver because foreigners were coming over and taking the jobs 'we' should be getting.
Why I wondered would any employer choose an attractive bright hard working East European when for the same money they could have this lump of lard? I looked at this representative of the seventeen million and thought how sad it was that the only way he could get a job was by banning his competitors. I'm afraid we're going to go down the pan fast.
Strange, I thought Leave.eu were an incompetent risible shower. Now it seems they were the dastardly masterminds behind the Facebook campaigns 'wot wunnit' what a late vindication.
I know it is a minority government and not in a position to be picky but how do Grieve and Wollaston retain the Tory whip exactly?
No doubt same reason Nadine Dorries and Andrew Bridgen retain the whip
If there is to be an election there really needs to be a clear out of those who do not support their own party.
If Tories and Labour would kindly support a change from FPTP to PR, this would allow splits and the formation of more, smaller parties. Corbyn/McDonnell and Leslie/Kendall could part company, as one example.
Without a shift to fair voting, a breakaway group goes the same way as the SDP. Hence for the time being we have Bone, Chope & Bridgen sharing the same party as Clarke, Soubry and Grieve.
I’ve forgotten. What is the Remainer opposition to the WA based on? Other than the fact it doesn’t abandon Brexit? That it doesn’t offer a better deal, that remainers always argued was unachievable anyway?
They want to have their cake and eat it.
It’s almost as if, having been given nothing to persuade them to give Leave a chance, they have decided that they would prefer to stick with their original choice.
If Leavers had given Remainers any reason to reconsider, Brexit wouldn’t be in such a shaky position. But of course it couldn’t, because Leave had won on the basis of pandering to xenophobia so trying to meet the concerns of most Remainers was beyond the powers of Leavers.
I know it is a minority government and not in a position to be picky but how do Grieve and Wollaston retain the Tory whip exactly?
I can not say how those 2 do, but in the case of Heidi Allen I read that her association was making moves to deselect her and T May phoned to asked them not to.
Also something you may find interesting, in the Speccie last week it was stated that 15% of Tory Members are Scottish and that there was twice the probability that a Scottish person would be a Tory than an English person. You need to get the Glenns on the move and exercise this new power.
Am I missing something? If the Deal MV passes the Commons, what are the grounds for a VoNC?
The Deal MV is not the end of it. It still needs Parliamentary yes or no for the final WA agreement. So from the DUP point of view they could still thwart it by bringing down the Government even after the MV has been won.
Also something you may find interesting, in the Speccie last week it was stated that 15% of Tory Members are Scottish and that there was twice the probability that a Scottish person would be a Tory than an English person. You need to get the Glenns on the move and exercise this new power.
There was a reception in Downing Street last week for Scottish Tories to thank them for the great results in recent years
A silly contrarian piece. How is Parliament not a political elite?
But they haven't. The political elite working to stifle Brexit is an imaginary story Brexiteers tell each other when they are forced to confront their own inadequacies and the intellectual bankcruptcy of their creed
I wish there was an influential political elite with the clout to thwart Brexit.
Amongst the plethora of vox pops on why people voted the way they did a hugely fat man in his mid 20s said he was a Leaver because foreigners were coming over and taking the jobs 'we' should be getting.
Why I wondered would any employer choose an attractive bright hard working East European when for the same money they could have this lump of lard? I looked at this representative of the seventeen million and thought how sad it was that the only way he could get a job was by banning his competitors. I'm afraid we're going to go down the pan fast.
So you're judging one person competent for work on the basis that they are "attractive" while "a lump of lard" is not. OK, it's a view... admittedly not one shared by many HR departments...
I’ve forgotten. What is the Remainer opposition to the WA based on? Other than the fact it doesn’t abandon Brexit? That it doesn’t offer a better deal, that remainers always argued was unachievable anyway?
They want to have their cake and eat it.
Pre referendum: “don’t vote for Brexit, you won’t get any cake” Post referendum: “ok, you voted for Brexit, we accept the democratic will, but just remember, no cake!” Govt does deal which doesn’t include cake: “look, no cake!”...” we reject the deal and advocate the Govt should go back to the EU and ask for cake...”
Pre referendum: “don’t vote for Brexit, you won’t get any cake” Post referendum: “ok, you voted for Brexit, we accept the democratic will, but just remember, no cake!” Govt does deal which doesn’t include cake: “look, no cake!”...” we reject the deal and advocate the Govt should go back to the EU and ask for cake...”
"the BBC and most of the press cheering them on" - Well that is just horseshit. It has been Tory cuts redux. Sky News in particular has been 2 years of wall to wall, Brexit Boooooooooo.
Isn't its strange how money spent by Leave apparently had far more influence on the result than almost twice the money spent on Remain.
Not really that strange.
Leave ran a better campaignit was without doubt more effective.
Throw £500,000 at Vote Leave and £1m at Britain Stronger In Europe, and VL would have put it into efficient targeting while BSIE would have pissed it up the wall.
So in the event of a second referendum, BSIE2 needs to match VL's savvy. They can do that by appealing to people's better instincts or their baser instincts. The lesson of the original referendum might suggest that baser instincts will win, and there's a fairly obvious dog-whistle on immigration that BSIE2 could try if they were feeling unprincipled.
My gut feeling is that EUref2 will be won by heavily targeted, predominantly local, digital campaigning rather than by national headlines, and VL were better at that first time. But then as Tim Shipman's 'Fall Out' describes, GE2017 was an attempt to "get the crew back together" from the previous election and history didn't exactly repeat itself...
I agree with all of that. But the claim was Andy making (or rather the Oxford Prof he mentions was making) is that Leave won because of the extra money they spent. Given that Remain far outspent Leave even after any dodgy money is taken into account it is a fairly groundless claim.
Two points on this: Firstly, the Ashcroft big exit poll suggested that people deciding a few days before, and people deciding on the day both voted modestly but materially in favour of Remain. The Remain bias and the lack of any disparity between 'last few days' and 'on the day' exist despite, on the good Professor's evidence, Remain having not spent any money in the last 24 hours.
Secondly, put your hand up if you remember the fresh, decision-altering content of the Facebook messages or tweets you saw in the last 24 hours of the campaign but hadn't seen or had ignored in the previous billion days of campaigning.
Now put your hand up if you can remember being sent a pamphlet by HMG.
Am I missing something? If the Deal MV passes the Commons, what are the grounds for a VoNC?
The Deal MV is not the end of it. It still needs Parliamentary yes or no for the final WA agreement. So from the DUP point of view they could still thwart it by bringing down the Government even after the MV has been won.
As far as Labour goes, they are spoiled for choice on things to propose a VONC about. Doesn't need to be about Brexit!
That said, I don't share the idea that Labour will cunningly let the MV go through in order to bring down the government - it's in the "too clever by half" category, and would seriously inflame the party. They'll do their best to stop it, try for a Remain vs Hard Brexit referendum, and if they fail they'll hope to get an election soon anyway. Even the Government's greatest admirers surely don't think it can carry on for years?
So the nonsense amendment passes and the Govt pulls the main motion. Since the “amendment” will have rendered it null and void.
What status does the “rejection of no deal Brexit” clause then have?
Does that mean the Government would have fulfilled its mandate to bring forward a MV? Surely the House voting for an amendment that nullifies the motion means the Government have fulfilled the requirement of the House?
A young Michael Howard: “Doesn’t it stand to reason that the only way we can regain some of the political standing we’ve lost is by playing our part in Europe, and through Europe in world affairs?”
The Democratic nominee will be Beto, Harris or Warren.
I don't think Warren will stand. And if she does, I think she'll get hammered in the Primaries.
If Beto stands, he will beat her in Iowa. If he doesn't, she will win there and be the frontrunner. She will then do well in New Hampshire and be setup for a contest against the South Carolina winner, likely Harris.
"the BBC and most of the press cheering them on" - Well that is just horseshit. It has been Tory cuts redux. Sky News in particular has been 2 years of wall to wall, Brexit Boooooooooo.
Strange, I thought Leave.eu were an incompetent risible shower. Now it seems they were the dastardly masterminds behind the Facebook campaigns 'wot wunnit' what a late vindication.
Wrong!
It was The Sunil wot won it!
Well, can you bat for Remain next time please?
Me? Are you kidding? Hey, I was with you all the time! That was beautiful! Did you see the way the Leavers fell into our trap! Ha ha!
A young Michael Howard: “Doesn’t it stand to reason that the only way we can regain some of the political standing we’ve lost is by playing our part in Europe?”
So the nonsense amendment passes and the Govt pulls the main motion. Since the “amendment” will have rendered it null and void.
What status does the “rejection of no deal Brexit” clause then have?
Does that mean the Government would have fulfilled its mandate to bring forward a MV? Surely the House voting for an amendment that nullifies the motion means the Government have fulfilled the requirement of the House?
“HoC” : “give us a vote on the deal” “Govt: “ here’s your vote” HoC : “nah, only kidding”
Strange, I thought Leave.eu were an incompetent risible shower. Now it seems they were the dastardly masterminds behind the Facebook campaigns 'wot wunnit' what a late vindication.
Wrong!
It was The Sunil wot won it!
Well, can you bat for Remain next time please?
Me? Are you kidding? Hey, I was with you all the time! That was beautiful! Did you see the way the Leavers fell into our trap! Ha ha!
A young Michael Howard: “Doesn’t it stand to reason that the only way we can regain some of the political standing we’ve lost is by playing our part in Europe?”
If the political elite refused to implement the original referendum, blocked a deal that was on the table and then economically blackmailed their way into overruling the first vote,
Read the Spectator piece posted earlier. Their is no political elite determined to thwart Brexit
Is it worth pointing out that Britain does not have a ‘powerful elite’? I know everyone wants to pretend it does, and no one ever admits to being a member of it, but you need only ask what a ruling class worthy of the name would do about Brexit, to see it does not exist. A true elite would not take the risk of a second referendum. It would stop Brexit, now, and take the political consequences on the chin. (‘You always want to play the victim and feel put upon,’ it might say to leave supporters. ‘So let’s give you something to really moan about’.)
It would use the advice of the EU’s advocate general that Britain can even now retain its rebate and exemptions from the Schengen agreement referendum was illegitimate, it would continue. If the Brexit referendum had been a Parliamentary election, the courts would have intervened long ago.
A silly contrarian piece. How is Parliament not a political elite?
Do those who favour side stepping the 2016 Leave vote really perceive no real danger to the concept of representative democracy. There are Conservative MPs already saying the game is a stitch up against ordinary folk. Is this not likely to e amplified if the referendum is over turned and 17m told to think again. The Tory party has kept out the hard right for generations. If Brexit is overturned that safety valve is disabled.
I am a totally committed to the democratic process, I have at times participated at senior municipal levels. Totally bought into it. But if the decision to leave is rescinded, and I’m not talking about the flavour of Brexit, or soft or hard, but whether or not we cease to be a member of the EU, then there’ll be a new dawn between many of the governed and the governing.
If the democratic process no longer becomes the place to exercise my small bit of influence as a voter, then i’ll need to find other ways of influencing the government. That will start off as civil disobedience and direct action, then it might just be not actively condoning those who take the law into their own hands and resort to violence, but not endorsing them of course. That depends what happens next. It will be a fundamental and perilous decision which will have profound consequences.
I’ve got used to having my vote and those that take it away do so at their own risk.
Perhaps the solution is to seek a time limit for the backstop. Say, 10 years?
The chances of the EU agreeing to that?
20 years?
Add a nought
Well it would at least put on the spot the argument that the backstop solution is ultimately not desired by either side, and is just an insurance policy to guarantee the Irish open border in the event of trade talks taking a bit longer than expected. If they can’t sort out a deal in 20 years...
Why on earth do ERG think the deal without the backstop would pass the House? And it would just make the trade negotiations impossible because we would be back on the clock with both sides claiming no deal would be devastating for the other.
A young Michael Howard: “Doesn’t it stand to reason that the only way we can regain some of the political standing we’ve lost is by playing our part in Europe?”
I remember in the early years of Blair when the UK was the leading player in Europe...and how we played a world role....
and..how low have we gone..into a squabbling, pathetic, useless, out of touch, peripheral, isolated, begging, measly little country...the UK of 2018
LOL. Your memory is seriously defective. Blair's foreign policies were almost uniformly disastrous. Remember this is the man who wanted to give Bashar al-Assad a knighthood!
I am a totally committed to the democratic process, I have at times participated at senior municipal levels. Totally bought into it. But if the decision to leave is rescinded, and I’m not talking about the flavour of Brexit, or soft or hard, but whether or not we cease to be a member of the EU, then there’ll be a new dawn between many of the governed and the governing.
If the democratic process no longer becomes the place to exercise my small bit of influence as a voter, then i’ll need to find other ways of influencing the government. That will start off as civil disobedience and direct action, then it might just be not actively condoning those who take the law into their own hands and resort to violence, but not endorsing them of course. That depends what happens next. It will be a fundamental and perilous decision which will have profound consequences.
I’ve got used to having my vote and those that take it away do so at their own risk.
Obviously you're not totally committed to the democratic process, since you're writing posts like that in response to the possibility of an elected parliament organizing a referendum, which your side then (hypothetically) loses.
The problem with this is that even if we wanted to appease the thinly-veiled terrorism threats of people like you, there doesn't seem to be any way to do it. You've already murdered an MP, and that was before the referendum even happened. TMay's deal is apparently considered a traitorous betrayal, and any other possible deal would also be considered a traitorous betrayal.
I'm not saying appeasement never works, but appeasing people like you would be a mistake, IMHO.
A young Michael Howard: “Doesn’t it stand to reason that the only way we can regain some of the political standing we’ve lost is by playing our part in Europe, and through Europe in world affairs?”
Interesting. Of course, he and Ken Clarke were good mates at Cambridge, so presumably they were both young Heathites there. Wonder what caused Howard to regress.
I am a totally committed to the democratic process, I have at times participated at senior municipal levels. Totally bought into it. But if the decision to leave is rescinded, and I’m not talking about the flavour of Brexit, or soft or hard, but whether or not we cease to be a member of the EU, then there’ll be a new dawn between many of the governed and the governing.
If the democratic process no longer becomes the place to exercise my small bit of influence as a voter, then i’ll need to find other ways of influencing the government. That will start off as civil disobedience and direct action, then it might just be not actively condoning those who take the law into their own hands and resort to violence, but not endorsing them of course. That depends what happens next. It will be a fundamental and perilous decision which will have profound consequences.
I’ve got used to having my vote and those that take it away do so at their own risk.
Obviously you're not totally committed to the democratic process, since you're writing posts like that in response to the possibility of an elected parliament organizing a referendum, which your side then (hypothetically) loses.
The problem with this is that even if we wanted to appease the thinly-veiled terrorism threats of people like you, there doesn't seem to be any way to do it. You've already murdered an MP, and that was before the referendum even happened. TMay's deal is apparently considered a traitorous betrayal, and any other possible deal would also be considered a traitorous betrayal.
I'm not saying appeasement never works, but appeasing people like you would be a mistake, IMHO.
Steady on. Accusing another forum member of murder is libellous.
A young Michael Howard: “Doesn’t it stand to reason that the only way we can regain some of the political standing we’ve lost is by playing our part in Europe, and through Europe in world affairs?”
Interesting. Of course, he and Ken Clarke were good mates at Cambridge, so presumably they were both young Heathites there. Wonder what caused Howard to regress.
That famously successful political philosophy of Heathism.
I am a totally committed to the democratic process, I have at times participated at senior municipal levels. Totally bought into it. But if the decision to leave is rescinded, and I’m not talking about the flavour of Brexit, or soft or hard, but whether or not we cease to be a member of the EU, then there’ll be a new dawn between many of the governed and the governing.
If the democratic process no longer becomes the place to exercise my small bit of influence as a voter, then i’ll need to find other ways of influencing the government. That will start off as civil disobedience and direct action, then it might just be not actively condoning those who take the law into their own hands and resort to violence, but not endorsing them of course. That depends what happens next. It will be a fundamental and perilous decision which will have profound consequences.
I’ve got used to having my vote and those that take it away do so at their own risk.
Obviously you're not totally committed to the democratic process, since you're writing posts like that in response to the possibility of an elected parliament organizing a referendum, which your side then (hypothetically) loses.
The problem with this is that even if we wanted to appease the thinly-veiled terrorism threats of people like you, there doesn't seem to be any way to do it. You've already murdered an MP, and that was before the referendum even happened. TMay's deal is apparently considered a traitorous betrayal, and any other possible deal would also be considered a traitorous betrayal.
I'm not saying appeasement never works, but appeasing people like you would be a mistake, IMHO.
Steady on. Accusing another forum member of murder is libellous.
I'm accusing that poster of thinly-veiled threats of terrorism. If you read the post I think it's pretty clear that's what it is.
It's not the first time we've had people trying to play that card here, and if they do, they shouldn't expect everybody to ignore the connection between what they're alluding to and what's already been done by people who agree with them.
I am a totally committed to the democratic process, I have at times participated at senior municipal levels. Totally bought into it. But if the decision to leave is rescinded, and I’m not talking about the flavour of Brexit, or soft or hard, but whether or not we cease to be a member of the EU, then there’ll be a new dawn between many of the governed and the governing.
If the democratic process no longer becomes the place to exercise my small bit of influence as a voter, then i’ll need to find other ways of influencing the government. That will start off as civil disobedience and direct action, then it might just be not actively condoning those who take the law into their own hands and resort to violence, but not endorsing them of course. That depends what happens next. It will be a fundamental and perilous decision which will have profound consequences.
I’ve got used to having my vote and those that take it away do so at their own risk.
Obviously you're not totally committed to the democratic process, since you're writing posts like that in response to the possibility of an elected parliament organizing a referendum, which your side then (hypothetically) loses.
The problem with this is that even if we wanted to appease the thinly-veiled terrorism threats of people like you, there doesn't seem to be any way to do it. You've already murdered an MP, and that was before the referendum even happened. TMay's deal is apparently considered a traitorous betrayal, and any other possible deal would also be considered a traitorous betrayal.
I'm not saying appeasement never works, but appeasing people like you would be a mistake, IMHO.
Woah there. Civil disobedience is not murder and the guy who murdered Jo Cox had a history of psychiatric problems.
And is thinly veiled terrorism acceptable when it is France holding up food and medicine at the border?
Woah there. Civil disobedience is not murder and the guy who murdered Jo Cox had a history of psychiatric problems.
Civil disobedience is not murder, but read the rest of the post. I know it doesn't quite make sense (eg "condone" should be something else) but I think we all know what he's getting at.
A young Michael Howard: “Doesn’t it stand to reason that the only way we can regain some of the political standing we’ve lost is by playing our part in Europe?”
I am a totally committed to the democratic process, I have at times participated at senior municipal levels. Totally bought into it. But if the decision to leave is rescinded, and I’m not talking about the flavour of Brexit, or soft or hard, but whether or not we cease to be a member of the EU, then there’ll be a new dawn between many of the governed and the governing.
If the democratic process no longer becomes the place to exercise my small bit of influence as a voter, then i’ll need to find other ways of influencing the government. That will start off as civil disobedience and direct action, then it might just be not actively condoning those who take the law into their own hands and resort to violence, but not endorsing them of course. That depends what happens next. It will be a fundamental and perilous decision which will have profound consequences.
I’ve got used to having my vote and those that take it away do so at their own risk.
Obviously you're not totally committed to the democratic process, since you're writing posts like that in response to the possibility of an elected parliament organizing a referendum, which your side then (hypothetically) loses.
The problem with this is that even if we wanted to appease the thinly-veiled terrorism threats of people like you, there doesn't seem to be any way to do it. You've already murdered an MP, and that was before the referendum even happened. TMay's deal is apparently considered a traitorous betrayal, and any other possible deal would also be considered a traitorous betrayal.
I'm not saying appeasement never works, but appeasing people like you would be a mistake, IMHO.
Steady on. Accusing another forum member of murder is libellous.
I'm accusing that poster of thinly-veiled threats of terrorism. If you read the post I think it's pretty clear that's what it is.
It's not the first time we've had people trying to play that card here, and if they do, they shouldn't expect everybody to ignore the connection between what they're alluding to and what's already been done by people who agree with them.
It’s out of order saying that the Jo Cox murder was anything to do with the Leave campaign. A man with a history of mental health issues who had linked himself to a new Nazi group was responsible. There is no connection between that and civil disobedience related to the non enforcement of the referendum result.
A young Michael Howard: “Doesn’t it stand to reason that the only way we can regain some of the political standing we’ve lost is by playing our part in Europe?”
I remember in the early years of Blair when the UK was the leading player in Europe...and how we played a world role....
and..how low have we gone..into a squabbling, pathetic, useless, out of touch, peripheral, isolated, begging, measly little country...the UK of 2018
Blair of course ensured Britain punched above its weight by lining up with the USA and Clinton and Bush in the war on terror while also committing the UK to playing a key role in the EU. Even the Tory Party at the time largely backed him on that.
Now we have a Labour Party led by someone who is openly hostile to American foreign policy and has a long anti EU history and still backs Brexit and a Tory Party largely committed to Brexit and cutting ties with the EU and a PM who is largely dismissed by the US President in their dealings with each other.
Britain is more isolationist than it has been for decades, indeed if Corbyn gets in the best we can hope for is a special relationship with Mexico where his old pal Lopez Obrador is now President
Perhaps the solution is to seek a time limit for the backstop. Say, 10 years?
The chances of the EU agreeing to that?
20 years?
Add a nought
Well it would at least put on the spot the argument that the backstop solution is ultimately not desired by either side, and is just an insurance policy to guarantee the Irish open border in the event of trade talks taking a bit longer than expected. If they can’t sort out a deal in 20 years...
It should be the length of time of an elected official so 5 years, but renewable if both sides agree
A young Michael Howard: “Doesn’t it stand to reason that the only way we can regain some of the political standing we’ve lost is by playing our part in Europe?”
I remember in the early years of Blair when the UK was the leading player in Europe...and how we played a world role....
and..how low have we gone..into a squabbling, pathetic, useless, out of touch, peripheral, isolated, begging, measly little country...the UK of 2018
Blair of course ensured Britain punched above its weight by lining up with the USA and Clinton and Bush in the war on terror while also committing the UK to playing a key role in the EU. Even the Tory Party at the time largely backed him on that.
Now we have a Labour Party led by someone who is openly hostile to American foreign policy and has a long anti EU history and still backs Brexit and a Tory Party largely committed to Brexit and cutting ties with the EU and a PM who is largely dismissed by the US President in their dealings with each other.
Britain is more isolationist than it has been for decades, indeed if Corbyn gets in the best we can hope for is a special relationship with Mexico where his old pal Lopez Obrador is now President
Yeah, anyone would think the world is a different place in 2018 than it was in 1998, or even 2008.
Isn't its strange how money spent by Leave apparently had far more influence on the result than almost twice the money spent on Remain.
Not really that strange.
Leave ran a better campaignit was without doubt more effective.
Throw £500,000 at Vote Leave and £1m at Britain Stronger In Europe, and VL would have put it into efficient targeting while BSIE would have pissed it up the wall.
My gut feeling is that EUref2 will be won by heavily targeted, predominantly local, digital campaigning rather than by national headlines, and VL were better at that first time. But then as Tim Shipman's 'Fall Out' describes, GE2017 was an attempt to "get the crew back together" from the previous election and history didn't exactly repeat itself...
I agree with all of that. But the claim was Andy making (or rather the Oxford Prof he mentions was making) is that Leave won because of the extra money they spent. Given that Remain far outspent Leave even after any dodgy money is taken into account it is a fairly groundless claim.
Two points on this: Firstly, the Ashcroft big exit poll suggested that people deciding a few days before, and people deciding on the day both voted modestly but materially in favour of Remain. The Remain bias and the lack of any disparity between 'last few days' and 'on the day' exist despite, on the good Professor's evidence, Remain having not spent any money in the last 24 hours.
Secondly, put your hand up if you remember the fresh, decision-altering content of the Facebook messages or tweets you saw in the last 24 hours of the campaign but hadn't seen or had ignored in the previous billion days of campaigning.
Now put your hand up if you can remember being sent a pamphlet by HMG.
Thought so.
I decided on the way to the polling station.
I decided in the booth. Couldn’t bring myself to vote for leave and chaos. Was surprised when they won
Blair destroyed another country . Cameron has destroyed his own !
The genie is out of the bottle now . The UK will never be the same again, those who have lost rights they treasured will never forgive those who voted to remove those rights from them.
That’s why Brexit will polarize the country for years . And if the economy heads south the anger will rise further.
Remainers having lost their rights are now being told to also suffer a catastrophic no deal to give Leavers their Pure Brexit.
Come the revolution with me in charge I’d have the ERG nutjobs removed from Parliament and imprisoned . The Brexit Jihadists are a danger to the country and proposing a course of action that can only be classed as treasonous .
Saving that can we just call the whole thing off and return to a time when politics was dull !
I am a totally committed to the democratic process, I have at times participated at senior municipal levels. Totally bought into it. But if the decision to leave is rescinded, and I’m not talking about the flavour of Brexit, or soft or hard, but whether or not we cease to be a member of the EU, then there’ll be a new dawn between many of the governed and the governing.
If the democratic process no longer becomes the place to exercise my small bit of influence as a voter, then i’ll need to find other ways of influencing the government. That will start off as civil disobedience and direct action, then it might just be not actively condoning those who take the law into their own hands and resort to violence, but not endorsing them of course. That depends what happens next. It will be a fundamental and perilous decision which will have profound consequences.
I’ve got used to having my vote and those that take it away do so at their own risk.
Obviously you're not totally committed to the democratic process, since you're writing posts like that in response to the possibility of an elected parliament organizing a referendum, which your side then (hypothetically) loses.
The problem with this is that even if we wanted to appease the thinly-veiled terrorism threats of people like you, there doesn't seem to be any way to do it. You've already murdered an MP, and that was before the referendum even happened. TMay's deal is apparently considered a traitorous betrayal, and any other possible deal would also be considered a traitorous betrayal.
I'm not saying appeasement never works, but appeasing people like you would be a mistake, IMHO.
Steady on. Accusing another forum member of murder is libellous.
I'm accusing that poster of thinly-veiled threats of terrorism. If you read the post I think it's pretty clear that's what it is.
It's not the first time we've had people trying to play that card here, and if they do, they shouldn't expect everybody to ignore the connection between what they're alluding to and what's already been done by people who agree with them.
It’s out of order saying that the Jo Cox murder was anything to do with the Leave campaign. A man with a history of mental health issues who had linked himself to a new Nazi group was responsible. There is no connection between that and civil disobedience related to the non enforcement of the referendum result.
Really? When Farage says he "will pick up a rifle", I think we know that nutters will be triggered. They were, and will be again. However that is no reason not to face down the nutters. We can and will deal with violent nutters... Indeed we must, because our very freedom depends on it.
I am a totally committed to the democratic process, I have at times participated at senior municipal levels. Totally bought into it. But if the decision to leave is rescinded, and I’m not talking about the flavour of Brexit, or soft or hard, but whether or not we cease to be a member of the EU, then there’ll be a new dawn between many of the governed and the governing.
If the democratic process no longer becomes the place to exercise my small bit of influence as a voter, then i’ll need to find other ways of influencing the government. That will start off as civil disobedience and direct action, then it might just be not actively condoning those who take the law into their own hands and resort to violence, but not endorsing them of course. That depends what happens next. It will be a fundamental and perilous decision which will have profound consequences.
I’ve got used to having my vote and those that take it away do so at their own risk.
Obviously you're not totally committed to the democratic process, since you're writing posts like that in response to the possibility of an elected parliament organizing a referendum, which your side then (hypothetically) loses.
The problem with this is that even if we wanted to appease the thinly-veiled terrorism threats of people like you, there doesn't seem to be any way to do it. You've already murdered an MP, and that was before the referendum even happened. TMay's deal is apparently considered a traitorous betrayal, and any other possible deal would also be considered a traitorous betrayal.
I'm not saying appeasement never works, but appeasing people like you would be a mistake, IMHO.
Steady on. Accusing another forum member of murder is libellous.
I'm accusing that poster of thinly-veiled threats of terrorism. If you read the post I think it's pretty clear that's what it is.
It's not the first time we've had people trying to play that card here, and if they do, they shouldn't expect everybody to ignore the connection between what they're alluding to and what's already been done by people who agree with them.
It’s out of order saying that the Jo Cox murder was anything to do with the Leave campaign. A man with a history of mental health issues who had linked himself to a new Nazi group was responsible. There is no connection between that and civil disobedience related to the non enforcement of the referendum result.
Once we pick and choose the democratic decisions we will or will not uphold how quickly and totally unsurprisingly talk turns to violent action.
I am a totally committed to the democratic process, I have at times participated at senior municipal levels. Totally bought into it. But if the decision to leave is rescinded, and I’m not talking about the flavour of Brexit, or soft or hard, but whether or not we cease to be a member of the EU, then there’ll be a new dawn between many of the governed and the governing.
I’ve got used to having my vote and those that take it away do so at their own risk.
I'm not saying appeasement never works, but appeasing people like you would be a mistake, IMHO.
Steady on. Accusing another forum member of murder is libellous.
I'm accusing that poster of thinly-veiled threats of terrorism. If you read the post I think it's pretty clear that's what it is.
It's not the first time we've had people trying to play that card here, and if they do, they shouldn't expect everybody to ignore the connection between what they're alluding to and what's already been done by people who agree with them.
It’s out of order saying that the Jo Cox murder was anything to do with the Leave campaign. A man with a history of mental health issues who had linked himself to a new Nazi group was responsible. There is no connection between that and civil disobedience related to the non enforcement of the referendum result.
Really? When Farage says he "will pick up a rifle", I think we know that nutters will be triggered. They were, and will be again. However that is no reason not to face down the nutters. We can and will deal with violent nutters... Indeed we must, because our very freedom depends on it.
We absolutely should face down violence. But giving these nutters a legitimate cause makes it so much harder to.
I am a totally committed to the democratic process, I have at times participated at senior municipal levels. Totally bought into it. But if the decision to leave is rescinded, and I’m not talking about the flavour of Brexit, or soft or hard, but whether or not we cease to be a member of the EU, then there’ll be a new dawn between many of the governed and the governing.
I’ve got used to having my vote and those that take it away do so at their own risk.
I'm not saying appeasement never works, but appeasing people like you would be a mistake, IMHO.
Steady on. Accusing another forum member of murder is libellous.
I'm accusing that poster of thinly-veiled threats of terrorism. If you read the post I think it's pretty clear that's what it is.
It's not the first time we've had people trying to play that card here, and if they do, they shouldn't expect everybody to ignore the connection between what they're alluding to and what's already been done by people who agree with them.
It’s out of order saying that the Jo Cox murder was anything to do with the Leave campaign. A man with a history of mental health issues who had linked himself to a new Nazi group was responsible. There is no connection between that and civil disobedience related to the non enforcement of the referendum result.
Really? When Farage says he "will pick up a rifle", I think we know that nutters will be triggered. They were, and will be again. However that is no reason not to face down the nutters. We can and will deal with violent nutters... Indeed we must, because our very freedom depends on it.
We absolutely should face down violence. But giving these nutters a legitimate cause makes it so much harder to.
You do realise the "Brexit Betrayal" crowd are protesting *against* the deal, not in favour of it?
I am a totally committed to the democratic process, I have at times participated at senior municipal levels. Totally bought into it. But if the decision to leave is rescinded, and I’m not talking about the flavour of Brexit, or soft or hard, but whether or not we cease to be a member of the EU, then there’ll be a new dawn between many of the governed and the governing.
I’ve got used to having my vote and those that take it away do so at their own risk.
I'm not saying appeasement never works, but appeasing people like you would be a mistake, IMHO.
Steady on. Accusing another forum member of murder is libellous.
I'm accusing that poster of thinly-veiled threats of terrorism. If you read the post I think it's pretty clear that's what it is.
It's not the first time we've had people trying to play that card here, and if they do, they shouldn't expect everybody to ignore the connection between what they're alluding to and what's already been done by people who agree with them.
It’s out of order saying that the Jo Cox murder was anything to do with the Leave campaign. A man with a history of mental health issues who had linked himself to a new Nazi group was responsible. There is no connection between that and civil disobedience related to the non enforcement of the referendum result.
Really? When Farage says he "will pick up a rifle", I think we know that nutters will be triggered. They were, and will be again. However that is no reason not to face down the nutters. We can and will deal with violent nutters... Indeed we must, because our very freedom depends on it.
We absolutely should face down violence. But giving these nutters a legitimate cause makes it so much harder to.
One thing that would help would be if Leave enthusiasts would stop playing this tactical game that some people here are playing: Pushing this (obviously ludicrous) narrative that if there was another referendum, and a majority of voters voted against what they wanted, this would be some kind of outrage against democracy.
I know it's politically useful to get people riled up, but it's very hard to calibrate the exact desired degree of "riled up".
Making an argument that violence is somehow not worth condemning in the name of Brexit is obviously going to be linked to Jo Cox.
Though that could be unfair, rather than violence against remainer MPs the poster might have meant violence against younger people, minorities or other groups that voted remain instead.
In my opinion the most important news at the moment is the fact that life expectancy in the world's most powerful country has dropped for the third year in a row, but almost no-one seems to be talking about it on the news channels, BBC radio news, the newspapers, magazines, etc. In fact they seem to be discussing just about every other subject under the sun apart from that one.
I am a totally committed to the democratic process, I have at times participated at senior municipal levels. Totally bought into it. But if the decision to leave is rescinded, and I’m not talking about the flavour of Brexit, or soft or hard, but whether or not we cease to be a member of the EU, then there’ll be a new dawn between many of the governed and the governing.
I’ve got used to having my vote and those that take it away do so at their own risk.
I'm not saying appeasement never works, but appeasing people like you would be a mistake, IMHO.
Steady on. Accusing another forum member of murder is libellous.
l
depends on it.
We absolutely should face down violence. But giving these nutters a legitimate cause makes it so much harder to.
One thing that would help would be if Leave enthusiasts would stop playing this tactical game that some people here are playing: Pushing this (obviously ludicrous) narrative that if there was another referendum, and a majority of voters voted against what they wanted, this would be some kind of outrage against democracy.
I know it's politically useful to get people riled up, but it's very hard to calibrate the exact desired degree of "riled up".
It's not a tactical game. It would be a genuine anti-democratic disgrace. We voted to Leave. Parliament's Remain majority then dragged their feet for two years, throwing every obstacle in the way of the government trying to implement it, and then voted against the deal. And also, via the ludicrous six tests, made clear they would vote down ANY deal. All this after a general election with both major parties promising to enact Brexit. Then, having caused a political crisis, and ramming us towards an economic one, got us to vote again while hanging the sword of Damocles over the heads of the electorate. It would be completely clear that on certain matters, the public will not be listened to. They will be blackmailed and kept being asked the same question until they give the answer the elite wanted.
It is a perfectly legitimate position to want the UK in the EU. But the only way that position can be reconciled with democracy is for the results of the original vote to be implemented, and then a government elected on a mandate to hold another referendum to rejoin.
Parliament's Remain majority then dragged their feet for two years, throwing every obstacle in the way of the government trying to implement it, and then voted against the deal. And also, via the ludicrous six tests, made clear they would vote down ANY deal.
I am a totally committed to the democratic process, I have at times participated at senior municipal levels. Totally bought into it. But if the decision to leave is rescinded, and I’m not talking about the flavour of Brexit, or soft or hard, but whether or not we cease to be a member of the EU, then there’ll be a new dawn between many of the governed and the governing.
I’ve got used to having my vote and those that take it away do so at their own risk.
I'm not saying appeasement never works, but appeasing people like you would be a mistake, IMHO.
Steady on. Accusing another forum member of murder is libellous.
I'm accusing that poster of thinly-veiled threats of terrorism. If you read the post I think it's pretty clear that's what it is.
It's not the first time we've had people trying to play that card here, and if they do, they shouldn't expect everybody to ignore the connection between what they're alluding to and what's already been done by people who agree with them.
It’s out of order saying that the Jo Cox murder was anything to do with the Leave campaign. A man with a history of mental health issues who had linked himself to a new Nazi group was responsible. There is no connection between that and civil disobedience related to the non enforcement of the referendum result.
Really? When Farage says he "will pick up a rifle", I think we know that nutters will be triggered. They were, and will be again. However that is no reason not to face down the nutters. We can and will deal with violent nutters... Indeed we must, because our very freedom depends on it.
We absolutely should face down violence. But giving these nutters a legitimate cause makes it so much harder to.
You do realise the "Brexit Betrayal" crowd are protesting *against* the deal, not in favour of it?
Anger over "betrayal" over the deal is a drop in the water over what millions would believe if the first vote was overruled before it had even been attempted.
Parliament's Remain majority then dragged their feet for two years, throwing every obstacle in the way of the government trying to implement it, and then voted against the deal. And also, via the ludicrous six tests, made clear they would vote down ANY deal.
Those are Labour tests, not Remainer tests.
They are the reason the vast majority of Remainer MPs claim they are voting against the deal. And would be the same reason the vast majority of Remainer MPs would vote against any deal. Sabotage Brexit and screw the 17 million is clearly their view, whatever form of Brexit is negotiated. It is disgusting.
Parliament's Remain majority then dragged their feet for two years, throwing every obstacle in the way of the government trying to implement it, and then voted against the deal. And also, via the ludicrous six tests, made clear they would vote down ANY deal.
Those are Labour tests, not Remainer tests.
They are the reason the vast majority of Remainer MPs claim they are voting against the deal. And would be the same reason the vast majority of Remainer MPs would vote against any deal. Sabotage Brexit and screw the 17 million is clearly their view, whatever form of Brexit is negotiated. It is disgusting.
Why are Brexit supporting MPs not voting for it? Every MP from the only party in Westminster that campaigned fully for Brexit is voting against it.
Parliament's Remain majority then dragged their feet for two years, throwing every obstacle in the way of the government trying to implement it, and then voted against the deal. And also, via the ludicrous six tests, made clear they would vote down ANY deal.
Those are Labour tests, not Remainer tests.
It was the Conservatives who came up with them in the Brexit referendum rather than Labour.
In fairness where Labour are being a bit cynical is pretending the Conservatives were being honest and holding them to it.
Parliament's Remain majority then dragged their feet for two years, throwing every obstacle in the way of the government trying to implement it, and then voted against the deal. And also, via the ludicrous six tests, made clear they would vote down ANY deal.
Those are Labour tests, not Remainer tests.
They are the reason the vast majority of Remainer MPs claim they are voting against the deal. And would be the same reason the vast majority of Remainer MPs would vote against any deal. Sabotage Brexit and screw the 17 million is clearly their view, whatever form of Brexit is negotiated. It is disgusting.
Why are Brexit supporting MPs not voting for it? Every MP from the only party in Westminster that campaigned fully for Brexit is voting against it.
I don't think it fits into the Labour betrayal narrative he is trying to build so it is ignored.
Parliament's Remain majority then dragged their feet for two years, throwing every obstacle in the way of the government trying to implement it, and then voted against the deal. And also, via the ludicrous six tests, made clear they would vote down ANY deal.
Those are Labour tests, not Remainer tests.
They are the reason the vast majority of Remainer MPs claim they are voting against the deal. And would be the same reason the vast majority of Remainer MPs would vote against any deal. Sabotage Brexit and screw the 17 million is clearly their view, whatever form of Brexit is negotiated. It is disgusting.
Why are Brexit supporting MPs not voting for it? Every MP from the only party in Westminster that campaigned fully for Brexit is voting against it.
The vast majority are. The minority are instead supporting another course that respects the result of the referendum. I think they are reckless but at least they are respecting democracy. The Labour charlatans are voting it down because it's not EU membership, having announced publicly that no deal would be good enough, and having colluded with the EU negotiating team behind the government's back.
In my opinion the most important news at the moment is the fact that life expectancy in the world's most powerful country has dropped for the third year in a row, but almost no-one seems to be talking about it on the news channels, BBC radio news, the newspapers, magazines, etc. In fact they seem to be discussing just about every other subject under the sun apart from that one.
IIUC (I may be wrong) that's another manifestation of the "Americans have lots of guns, amd aggressively market them to mentally unstable people" story, which is tragic and weird but not necessarily a top priority for European countries.
The daughter of the founder of Chinese telecoms giant Huawei has been arrested in Canada and faces extradition to the United States. Meng Wanzhou, Huawei's chief financial officer and deputy chair, was arrested in Vancouver on 1 December.
Details of the arrest have not been released but the US has been investigating Huawei over possible violation of sanctions against Iran.
Awkward...not sure he will get away with claiming not knowing anything about Neo Nazis
British Neo-Nazis suggest Prince Harry should be shot
Mr Koczorowski came to the door of his London home wearing a hooded top emblazoned with the Atomwaffen Division logo. He did not respond to our allegations.
A young Michael Howard: “Doesn’t it stand to reason that the only way we can regain some of the political standing we’ve lost is by playing our part in Europe, and through Europe in world affairs?”
Interesting. Of course, he and Ken Clarke were good mates at Cambridge, so presumably they were both young Heathites there. Wonder what caused Howard to regress.
He got on the Westminster gravy train. I went to an event before the referendum where he spoke, and I came away with a powerful sense that he saw repatriating powers back from Brussels as a way for people like him at Westminster to have more power, and not to let the plebs come remotely near any extra power.
But he's happy for the plebs to pay £1000/year so that him and Boris can decide what shape cucumbers we can buy.
If not, then EEA+CU is a decent fallback. A second referendum would usher in yet another racist xenophobic divisive nightmare.
EEA+CU is difficult, but perhaps not impossible - it would need the UK deal to somehow circumvent article 56(3) of the EFTA Convention.
We are already divided. At a best case 30% of the population will be unhappy with the result and regard it as in some way undemocratic. But at the moment it's more like 70%, and a second referendum is probably the least bad way to reduce that number.
In my opinion the most important news at the moment is the fact that life expectancy in the world's most powerful country has dropped for the third year in a row, but almost no-one seems to be talking about it on the news channels, BBC radio news, the newspapers, magazines, etc. In fact they seem to be discussing just about every other subject under the sun apart from that one.
IIUC (I may be wrong) that's another manifestation of the "Americans have lots of guns, amd aggressively market them to mentally unstable people" story, which is tragic and weird but not necessarily a top priority for European countries.
A significant factor is the rising suicide rate in the US. Which, yes, having guns makes much easier.
It can't help that whereas in the UK you can reach the Samaritans on 116 123 and in Australia the equivalent on 13 11 14 , for suicide support in the US you have to remember to ring 1-800-273-8255.
Parliament's Remain majority then dragged their feet for two years, throwing every obstacle in the way of the government trying to implement it, and then voted against the deal. And also, via the ludicrous six tests, made clear they would vote down ANY deal.
Those are Labour tests, not Remainer tests.
They are the reason the vast majority of Remainer MPs claim they are voting against the deal. And would be the same reason the vast majority of Remainer MPs would vote against any deal. Sabotage Brexit and screw the 17 million is clearly their view, whatever form of Brexit is negotiated. It is disgusting.
Why are Brexit supporting MPs not voting for it? Every MP from the only party in Westminster that campaigned fully for Brexit is voting against it.
The vast majority are. The minority are instead supporting another course that respects the result of the referendum. I think they are reckless but at least they are respecting democracy. The Labour charlatans are voting it down because it's not EU membership, having announced publicly that no deal would be good enough, and having colluded with the EU negotiating team behind the government's back.
The opposition is there to oppose the government, that's the way our system is supposed to work, if May wanted to make an exception she should have reached out on a cross-party basis after losing her majority, as she was widely urged to do. Instead she went off making speeches to humour her extremists (storing up more problems down the road) and treated the whole affair as just a Conservative Party matter,
I am a totally committed to the democratic process, I have at times participated at senior municipal levels. Totally bought into it. But if the decision to leave is rescinded, and I’m not talking about the flavour of Brexit, or soft or hard, but whether or not we cease to be a member of the EU, then there’ll be a new dawn between many of the governed and the governing.
I’ve got used to having my vote and those that take it away do so at their own risk.
I'm not saying appeasement never works, but appeasing people like you would be a mistake, IMHO.
Steady on. Accusing another forum member of murder is libellous.
I'm accusing that poster of thinly-veiled threats of terrorism. If you read the post I think it's pretty clear that's what it is.
It's not the first time we've had people trying to play that card here, and if they do, they shouldn't expect everybody to ignore the connection between what they're alluding to and what's already been done by people who agree with them.
It’s out of order saying that the Jo Cox murder was anything to do with the Leave campaign. A man with a history of mental health issues who had linked himself to a new Nazi group was responsible. There is no connection between that and civil disobedience related to the non enforcement of the referendum result.
Really? When Farage says he "will pick up a rifle", I think we know that nutters will be triggered. They were, and will be again. However that is no reason not to face down the nutters. We can and will deal with violent nutters... Indeed we must, because our very freedom depends on it.
We absolutely should face down violence. But giving these nutters a legitimate cause makes it so much harder to.
You do realise the "Brexit Betrayal" crowd are protesting *against* the deal, not in favour of it?
They have been itching to be betrayed since they accidentally won.
I am a totally committed to the democratic process, I have at times participated at senior municipal levels. Totally bought into it. But if the decision to leave is rescinded, and I’m not talking about the flavour of Brexit, or soft or hard, but whether or not we cease to be a member of the EU, then there’ll be a new dawn between many of the governed and the governing.
I’ve got used to having my vote and those that take it away do so at their own risk.
I'm not saying appeasement never works, but appeasing people like you would be a mistake, IMHO.
Steady on. Accusing another forum member of murder is libellous.
I'm accusing that poster of thinly-veiled threats of terrorism. If you read the post I think it's pretty clear that's what it is.
It's not the first time we've had people trying to play that card here, and if they do, they shouldn't expect everybody to ignore the connection between what they're alluding to and what's already been done by people who agree with them.
It’s out of order saying that the Jo Cox murder was anything to do with the Leave campaign. A man with a history of mental health issues who had linked himself to a new Nazi group was responsible. There is no connection between that and civil disobedience related to the non enforcement of the referendum result.
Really? When Farage says he "will pick up a rifle", I think we know that nutters will be triggered. They were, and will be again. However that is no reason not to face down the nutters. We can and will deal with violent nutters... Indeed we must, because our very freedom depends on it.
We absolutely should face down violence. But giving these nutters a legitimate cause makes it so much harder to.
You do realise the "Brexit Betrayal" crowd are protesting *against* the deal, not in favour of it?
They have been itching to be betrayed since they accidentally won.
For all the criticism I think this is where Corbyn's policy has been the right one. Building up a betrayal narrative from here around Corbyn or even Labour in general will be extremely difficult even if he does move to a more remain position. Those looking for scapegoats who don't want to blame the Conservatives are left thrashing about aimlessly.
It's not a tactical game. It would be a genuine anti-democratic disgrace. We voted to Leave. Parliament's Remain majority then dragged their feet for two years, throwing every obstacle in the way of the government trying to implement it
Bollocks
Parliament have voted through every aspect of Brexit so far. They haven't put up any obstacles.
The only obstacles Brexit faces are reality, and many of those were known (and discussed) before the vote
Comments
That's all you need to know.
It was The Sunil wot won it!
Amongst the plethora of vox pops on why people voted the way they did a hugely fat man in his mid 20s said he was a Leaver because foreigners were coming over and taking the jobs 'we' should be getting.
Why I wondered would any employer choose an attractive bright hard working East European when for the same money they could have this lump of lard? I looked at this representative of the seventeen million and thought how sad it was that the only way he could get a job was by banning his competitors. I'm afraid we're going to go down the pan fast.
Without a shift to fair voting, a breakaway group goes the same way as the SDP. Hence for the time being we have Bone, Chope & Bridgen sharing the same party as Clarke, Soubry and Grieve.
If Leavers had given Remainers any reason to reconsider, Brexit wouldn’t be in such a shaky position. But of course it couldn’t, because Leave had won on the basis of pandering to xenophobia so trying to meet the concerns of most Remainers was beyond the powers of Leavers.
https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/1070455880393596930
Though of couse many of these actually represent the activists better than the current parliamentary leadership.
Also something you may find interesting, in the Speccie last week it was stated that 15% of Tory Members are Scottish and that there was twice the probability that a Scottish person would be a Tory than an English person. You need to get the Glenns on the move and exercise this new power.
Post referendum: “ok, you voted for Brexit, we accept the democratic will, but just remember, no cake!”
Govt does deal which doesn’t include cake: “look, no cake!”...” we reject the deal and advocate the Govt should go back to the EU and ask for cake...”
What status does the “rejection of no deal Brexit” clause then have?
That said, I don't share the idea that Labour will cunningly let the MV go through in order to bring down the government - it's in the "too clever by half" category, and would seriously inflame the party. They'll do their best to stop it, try for a Remain vs Hard Brexit referendum, and if they fail they'll hope to get an election soon anyway. Even the Government's greatest admirers surely don't think it can carry on for years?
https://twitter.com/emporersnewc/status/1070450229433036800?s=21
and..how low have we gone..into a squabbling, pathetic, useless, out of touch, peripheral, isolated, begging, measly little country...the UK of 2018
“Govt: “ here’s your vote”
HoC : “nah, only kidding”
Or do you not care its a pile of crap?
If the democratic process no longer becomes the place to exercise my small bit of influence as a voter, then i’ll need to find other ways of influencing the government. That will start off as civil disobedience and direct action, then it might just be not actively condoning those who take the law into their own hands and resort to violence, but not endorsing them of course. That depends what happens next. It will be a fundamental and perilous decision which will have profound consequences.
I’ve got used to having my vote and those that take it away do so at their own risk.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6465045/Only-three-ten-want-MP-reject-Theresa-Mays-Brexit-deal-pressure-mounts-PM.html
The problem with this is that even if we wanted to appease the thinly-veiled terrorism threats of people like you, there doesn't seem to be any way to do it. You've already murdered an MP, and that was before the referendum even happened. TMay's deal is apparently considered a traitorous betrayal, and any other possible deal would also be considered a traitorous betrayal.
I'm not saying appeasement never works, but appeasing people like you would be a mistake, IMHO.
It's not the first time we've had people trying to play that card here, and if they do, they shouldn't expect everybody to ignore the connection between what they're alluding to and what's already been done by people who agree with them.
And is thinly veiled terrorism acceptable when it is France holding up food and medicine at the border?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/12/05/week-brexit-died/
Now we have a Labour Party led by someone who is openly hostile to American foreign policy and has a long anti EU history and still backs Brexit and a Tory Party largely committed to Brexit and cutting ties with the EU and a PM who is largely dismissed by the US President in their dealings with each other.
Britain is more isolationist than it has been for decades, indeed if Corbyn gets in the best we can hope for is a special relationship with Mexico where his old pal Lopez Obrador is now President
The genie is out of the bottle now . The UK will never be the same again, those who have lost rights they treasured will never forgive those who voted to remove those rights from them.
That’s why Brexit will polarize the country for years . And if the economy heads south the anger will rise further.
Remainers having lost their rights are now being told to also suffer a catastrophic no deal to give Leavers their Pure Brexit.
Come the revolution with me in charge I’d have the ERG nutjobs removed from Parliament and imprisoned . The Brexit Jihadists are a danger to the country and proposing a course of action that can only be classed as treasonous .
Saving that can we just call the whole thing off and return to a time when politics was dull !
I know it's politically useful to get people riled up, but it's very hard to calibrate the exact desired degree of "riled up".
Voting to Leave in 2016 was a mistake:
Yes: 50%
No: 34%
Though that could be unfair, rather than violence against remainer MPs the poster might have meant violence against younger people, minorities or other groups that voted remain instead.
Dacre Leaving was a mistake:
Yes: 100%
No: 0.001% *
*Geordie Greig
It is a perfectly legitimate position to want the UK in the EU. But the only way that position can be reconciled with democracy is for the results of the original vote to be implemented, and then a government elected on a mandate to hold another referendum to rejoin.
In fairness where Labour are being a bit cynical is pretending the Conservatives were being honest and holding them to it.
The daughter of the founder of Chinese telecoms giant Huawei has been arrested in Canada and faces extradition to the United States. Meng Wanzhou, Huawei's chief financial officer and deputy chair, was arrested in Vancouver on 1 December.
Details of the arrest have not been released but the US has been investigating Huawei over possible violation of sanctions against Iran.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46462858
British Neo-Nazis suggest Prince Harry should be shot
Mr Koczorowski came to the door of his London home wearing a hooded top emblazoned with the Atomwaffen Division logo. He did not respond to our allegations.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-46460442
But he's happy for the plebs to pay £1000/year so that him and Boris can decide what shape cucumbers we can buy.
We are already divided. At a best case 30% of the population will be unhappy with the result and regard it as in some way undemocratic. But at the moment it's more like 70%, and a second referendum is probably the least bad way to reduce that number.
It can't help that whereas in the UK you can reach the Samaritans on 116 123 and in Australia the equivalent on 13 11 14 , for suicide support in the US you have to remember to ring 1-800-273-8255.
Parliament have voted through every aspect of Brexit so far. They haven't put up any obstacles.
The only obstacles Brexit faces are reality, and many of those were known (and discussed) before the vote