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  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,732

    Mr. Walker, a second May manifesto might do the trick.

    Depressingly, May is still “better” than any contender.

    Javid? Lightweight.
    Hunt? Weasel.
    Gove? Ideologue.
    Johnson? Clown.
    Rees-Mogg? Throwback.
    Hammond? Boring.
    Gauke, Lidington, Hind? Invisible.
    Rudd? Another lightweight.
    Leadsom, Mordaunt? More lightweights.
    Raab? Klutz.

    Etc

    The few good Tories who could satisfyingly lead the country are not yet in Cabinet or even in Westminster.
    Do you mean me !!!!!!
    Actually, from the little I know of you from your posts, I would indeed prefer you as PM to any of the aforementioned.

    (And I didn’t even mention Truss, Fox or Williamson).
    Vote Big_G for a newer, kinder politics.....
    I do hope the comparison to the Jezaster was unintentional. I don't think even our favourite Osborne avatar poster would accuse Big-G of being like Corbyn.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    IanB2 said:

    notme said:

    IanB2 said:

    SeanT said:

    Mr. T, inertia and stubbornness on her part, versus cowardice, ambition, division, and unwillingness on the other.

    But, we'll see.

    I ea.
    But one?
    Really? A managed no deal would be a set of agreements to aid the flow of goods and people across trade areas for our mutual benefit, or even the wholesale ignoring of rules to allow things to carry on.

    You think otherwise?
    We'd be trying to do that in no deal, there is no difference. Where it suits both parties and the problem is big enough, for sure a sticking plaster can probably be agreed. Planes will keep flying. But having raised two fingers to the EU there won't be any such resolutions in areas that suit us but not them, and the whole of our import/export trade will suddenly be subject to red tape and delays that will have a devastating effect on many businesses large and small. Calling it "managed" is just a political trick to delude people that everything is under control.

    Edit/ as Ivan Rogers says:

    The “no deal + “ fantasy is that if we just had the guts to walk away, refuse to sign the Withdrawal Agreement with the backstop in it, and withhold a good half of the money the Prime Minister promised this time last year, capitals, suddenly realising we were serious, would come running for a series of mini deals which assured full trading continuity in all key sectors on basically unchanged Single Market and Customs Union terms.

    I don’t know what tablets these people are taking, but I must confess I wish I were on them. It will be said of them as it was said of the Bourbons, I think: “they have learned nothing and they have forgotten nothing”.

    The reality is that if the deal on the table falls apart because we have said “no”, there will not be some smooth rapid suite of mini side deals – from aviation to fisheries, from road haulage to data, from derivatives to customs and veterinary checks, from medicines to financial services, as the EU affably sits down with this Prime Minister or another one.

    The 27 will legislate and institute unilaterally temporary arrangements which assure continuity where they need it, and cause us asymmetric difficulties where they can. And a UK Government, which knows the efficacy of most of its contingency planning depends, to a greater or lesser degree on others’ actions out of its control, will then have to react – no doubt with a mixture of inevitable compliance and bellicose retaliation.
    :+1:

    This should be on every billboard across the country
  • ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Mr. Walker, a second May manifesto might do the trick.

    Depressingly, May is still “better” than any contender.

    Javid? Lightweight.
    Hunt? Weasel.
    Gove? Ideologue.
    Johnson? Clown.
    Rees-Mogg? Throwback.
    Hammond? Boring.
    Gauke, Lidington, Hind? Invisible.
    Rudd? Another lightweight.
    Leadsom, Mordaunt? More lightweights.
    Raab? Klutz.

    Etc

    The few good Tories who could satisfyingly lead the country are not yet in Cabinet or even in Westminster.
    I'd say Gove's capricious nature if more significant than his being an ideologue.
    I'd say his hubris and administrative incompetence are bigger issues.

    That, and the fact that he sees experts who dare to disagree with him as 'the enemy'.
    Are we really still pretending that's what Gove said?
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    I wouldn't have thought that Piers Morgan has a very good track record on politics. I usually notice his politic input when he is making excuses for Trump, his old social friend. Many people judge a person by the people they choose to associate themselves with!

    Maybe if Morgan persists in interfering in politics he will appear on the side of a bus with his friend Trump! Anything Trump is associated with is Toxic and Piers may have escaped with a career from the US once but where will he go if he is tainted in the UK?

    The only bus Morgan would look good on would be the one that he did not see when he stepped out into the road. The man is a slimeball.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Mr. Walker, disagree. I'd prefer Javid, Hunt, Gove, Hammond (probably), or Mordaunt.

    If it weren't for Corbyn, May would be the worst party leader in my adult life time.

    Anyway, I must be off. Play nicely, everyone.

    Naah. BROWN WORST BY A DISTANCE
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Mr. Walker, a second May manifesto might do the trick.

    Depressingly, May is still “better” than any contender.

    Javid? Lightweight.
    Hunt? Weasel.
    Gove? Ideologue.
    Johnson? Clown.
    Rees-Mogg? Throwback.
    Hammond? Boring.
    Gauke, Lidington, Hind? Invisible.
    Rudd? Another lightweight.
    Leadsom, Mordaunt? More lightweights.
    Raab? Klutz.

    Etc

    The few good Tories who could satisfyingly lead the country are not yet in Cabinet or even in Westminster.
    I'd say Gove's capricious nature if more significant than his being an ideologue.
    I'd say his hubris and administrative incompetence are bigger issues.

    That, and the fact that he sees experts who dare to disagree with him as 'the enemy'.
    Wasn't he just being critical of specific experts not expertise in general?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,732

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Mr. Walker, a second May manifesto might do the trick.

    Depressingly, May is still “better” than any contender.

    Javid? Lightweight.
    Hunt? Weasel.
    Gove? Ideologue.
    Johnson? Clown.
    Rees-Mogg? Throwback.
    Hammond? Boring.
    Gauke, Lidington, Hind? Invisible.
    Rudd? Another lightweight.
    Leadsom, Mordaunt? More lightweights.
    Raab? Klutz.

    Etc

    The few good Tories who could satisfyingly lead the country are not yet in Cabinet or even in Westminster.
    I'd say Gove's capricious nature if more significant than his being an ideologue.
    I'd say his hubris and administrative incompetence are bigger issues.

    That, and the fact that he sees experts who dare to disagree with him as 'the enemy'.
    Are we really still pretending that's what Gove said?
    I'm not thinking of what he said. Did he even say that? I'm thinking of the way he behaved at Education when given constructive comment on his policies, all of which has subsequently proven disastrously correct, and initiated a vicious smear campaign before hammering on regardless.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,955
    Donny43 said:

    Title still in Liverpool's hands......

    And City’s.

    Nope. Liverpool only need to win their remaining games (they would have the luxury of a draw against City) to lift the title.....
    If City win all their remaining 21 games they win the title.
    Yes. But (just to toy with TSE's hopes) I was saying if Liverpool win all their remaining games - it is in their hands. Even if they draw with City, it's enough.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    Brexit is bad enough, but I'll be d*mned if I am sticking around for football.....
  • Brexit’s success depends on our moral fibre says man who recently discovered Britain is an island off the coast of France.
    https://twitter.com/dominicraab/status/1074372746384166920?s=21
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    matt said:

    IanB2 said:

    matt said:

    IanB2 said:

    matt said:

    IanB2 said:

    matt said:

    Essexit said:

    Evening all. My family's view on how to play Monopoly is a straightforward one: don't.

    it does seem to go on a lot longer when I have played it recently than I remember it ever doing as a child.
    It’s a board game for people who don’t like board games, and won’t help to change their minds.
    Indeed. It's a poor game because the strategy is easy and one-dimensional (buy almost everything on which you land) and depends thereafter on luck, and it becomes obvious an hour or so in who is going to win, but you have to go through two hours' more pain before arriving at that conclusion. Although most people I know give up long before there is a single winner.

    There are some brilliant board games on the market - mostly devised by Germans, it has to be said - where there are multiple ways to try and win, there is a good balance between skill and luck, and where the eventual winner isn't obvious until the final turn. Go DYOR.
    Ticket to Ride, Pit Crew, Flamme Rouge, Codenames. Easy family games.
    True. And there are so many T2R variants on offer now, as well. Every one of my recent Xmas's has included several games. But for more dedicated gamers there is El Grande, 7Wonders, Terraforming Mars, Carcasonne and its many variants, Agricola and its sequels, Caverna, Puerto Rico, Navegador, Viticulture, Power Grid, the Dominion series of card games, Pandemic for an unusual team game, or even the enduring railway building games such as 1829 and its spinoffs. So many to choose from.
    1829 is, unfortunately, dross (or to be more charitable a prototype). 1830 AH is outstanding (particularly with the Reading expansion). Perhaps Europa Universalis by Azure Wish Edition....
    Isn't that a computer game?
    Boeadgame first, at the monumental scope level. The English rules were of varying coherence which one could put down to poor translation. Unfortunately in the original French they were little better.
    I always understood that EU was based on the board game Empires at Arms?
  • Donny43 said:

    Title still in Liverpool's hands......

    And City’s.

    Nope. Liverpool only need to win their remaining games (they would have the luxury of a draw against City) to lift the title.....
    If City win all their remaining 21 games they win the title.
    Yes. But (just to toy with TSE's hopes) I was saying if Liverpool win all their remaining games - it is in their hands. Even if they draw with City, it's enough.
    After 2014 I'm never ever getting my hopes up again.
  • OortOort Posts: 96
    edited December 2018

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Mr. Walker, a second May manifesto might do the trick.

    Depressingly, May is still “better” than any contender.

    Javid? Lightweight.
    Hunt? Weasel.
    Gove? Ideologue.
    Johnson? Clown.
    Rees-Mogg? Throwback.
    Hammond? Boring.
    Gauke, Lidington, Hind? Invisible.
    Rudd? Another lightweight.
    Leadsom, Mordaunt? More lightweights.
    Raab? Klutz.

    Etc

    The few good Tories who could satisfyingly lead the country are not yet in Cabinet or even in Westminster.
    I'd say Gove's capricious nature if more significant than his being an ideologue.
    I'd say his hubris and administrative incompetence are bigger issues.

    That, and the fact that he sees experts who dare to disagree with him as 'the enemy'.
    Are we really still pretending that's what Gove said?
    Look at who Michael Gove had as his adviser, first in opposition and then as a spad, who then directed Vote Leave. I wouldn't want to say anything potentially libellous; let's just say that having read hundreds of pages of Dominic Cummings's output I agree completely with the epithet assigned to him by David Cameron. That Gove chose to be advised by this guy for such a long time reflects on his judgement terribly badly. Imagine having Cummings in 10 Downing Street. Might be time to emigrate if he gets there.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    Brexit’s success depends on our moral fibre says man who recently discovered Britain is an island off the coast of France.
    https://twitter.com/dominicraab/status/1074372746384166920?s=21

    Raab turns out to be a pound shop Hannan.
    Depressing.
  • Donny43 said:

    Title still in Liverpool's hands......

    And City’s.

    Nope. Liverpool only need to win their remaining games (they would have the luxury of a draw against City) to lift the title.....
    If City win all their remaining 21 games they win the title.
    Yes. But (just to toy with TSE's hopes) I was saying if Liverpool win all their remaining games - it is in their hands. Even if they draw with City, it's enough.
    Yes but until the 3rd of January its in both club's hands (barring any more slip ups). After 3/1/19 it will only ever be in one club's hands (and potentially not even that depending upon other results it could end on goal difference).
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    What we've learned from Brexit is that the Dunning-Kruger effect can apply to entire political parties and indeed electorates.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    BREAKING: Number 10 confirms Prime Minister’s Christmas message will be screamed live on the Internet.

    https://twitter.com/DMReporter/status/1074380994256478210
  • Brexit’s success depends on our moral fibre says man who recently discovered Britain is an island off the coast of France.
    https://twitter.com/dominicraab/status/1074372746384166920?s=21

    Raab turns out to be a pound shop Hannan.
    Depressing.
    Raab has amazed me - just gone all ultra and talking 'tripe' (and that is me being polite)

    He will not get my wife and my votes if he even tries !!!!
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,164
    Jimmy Anderson was 250-1 before the nominees for SPOTY were announced.
  • Brexit’s success depends on our moral fibre says man who recently discovered Britain is an island off the coast of France.
    https://twitter.com/dominicraab/status/1074372746384166920?s=21

    And how does he suggest Britain enlist the “character” of the half of the country that think that he’s wrong and who he and his fellow travellers persist in alienating?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,001
    edited December 2018

    BREAKING: Number 10 confirms Prime Minister’s Christmas message will be screamed live on the Internet.

    https://twitter.com/DMReporter/status/1074380994256478210

    That is playing with the edit button but it is funny
  • OortOort Posts: 96
    edited December 2018

    What we've learned from Brexit is that the Dunning-Kruger effect can apply to entire political parties and indeed electorates.

    Another way of looking at it is to observe that much of the electorate, without considering themselves to be applying much logic or intellect, wanted to f*** things up for the political class and have succeeded.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,230
    Which begs the question: how would you describe the character of Gove, Johnson, Farage, Osborne, Jenkins, ... :(
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,001
    edited December 2018
    Good news for Wales - the severn crossing tolls are being removed after 50 years and by Easter both bridges will be at motorway standard.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,766
    SeanT said:

    matt said:

    @The Taxman

    How many politicians have vision etc.? One might argue that Blair did but I’m not sure that Adventures in Mesopotamia is what you want. Other than that, I consider that he avoided anything approaching a hard decision. Brown, no. Major, again no, Cameron, possibly but not interested in unpopular decisions. Arguably Nick Clegg (yes, really) and look where that got him.

    I’m unconvinced that the electorate respects, or at least will vote for, parties led by the people you describe.

    Would that be Nick "let's have an in/out EU referendum" Clegg vintage 2007? Or Nick "having a referendum is a terrible and demonic idea" Clegg, bottled in 2016?
    Most MPs never have even one idea: Nick Clegg had two!
  • Brexit’s success depends on our moral fibre says man who recently discovered Britain is an island off the coast of France.
    https://twitter.com/dominicraab/status/1074372746384166920?s=21

    And how does he suggest Britain enlist the “character” of the half of the country that think that he’s wrong and who he and his fellow travellers persist in alienating?

    Clearly, it will be all their fault when it doesn’t work out as planned.

  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    matt said:

    R

    Anazina said:

    The govt could always try paying a bigger bribe offering more financial assistance to NI to see if the DUP would stay onside...

    Perhaps a billion was not enough.

    I get the impression no amount of money would shift the DUP on what they consider to be a fundamental point of principle.
    Precisely. Whether you think they're right or not, fact is they won't accept anything that weakens the economic or constitutional integrity of the UK (and they also, I would surmise, suspect that this issue is being used as a device by Brussels and Dublin to drive a wedge between Great Britain and the province, with a view to eventual annexation.)

    HM Treasury could offer to give Northern Ireland £50bn: the DUP still wouldn't budge.
    #Arlene4PM
    An p

    Unionists in Northern Ireland are clearly big fans of the Fixed Term Parliament Act.

    Why else would you see 'FTP' written in so many places in the Province?

    Hinds’ barefaced lie this morning becomes evermore transparent.

    Yet the credulous crew on PB believed him!!
    As other have said, discussed by Cabinet members does not mean discussed in cabinet. Hinds may not have told the full truth but you have no evidence to suggest that he lied. It’s you who is doing the barefaced lying, if anyone.

    Accuracy is important and you appear to struggle with it.
    LOL.
  • Donny43Donny43 Posts: 634
    tlg86 said:

    Jimmy Anderson was 250-1 before the nominees for SPOTY were announced.

    Going for the Ryan Giggs style lifetime achievement award?
  • Listening over the weekend to brexit coverage on the media it is clear that the average voter thinks no deal is no change whatsover in anything and it is not a problem

    They are going to be in for some awakening if there is a 100% fail by our polticians and it happens
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    IanB2 said:

    matt said:

    IanB2 said:

    matt said:

    IanB2 said:

    matt said:

    IanB2 said:

    matt said:

    Essexit said:

    Evening all. My family's view on how to play Monopoly is a straightforward one: don't.

    it does seem to go on a lot longer when I have played it recently than I remember it ever doing as a child.
    It’s a board game for people who don’t like board games, and won’t help to change their minds.
    Indeed. It's a poor game because the strategy is easy and one-dimensional (buy almost everything on which you land) and depends thereafter on luck, and it becomes obvious an hour or so in who is going to win, but you have to go through two hours' more pain before arriving at that conclusion. Although most people I know give up long before there is a single winner.

    There are some brilliant board games on the market - mostly devised by Germans, it has to be said - where there are multiple ways to try and win, there is a good balance between skill and luck, and where the eventual winner isn't obvious until the final turn. Go DYOR.
    Ticket to Ride, Pit Crew, Flamme Rouge, Codenames. Easy family games.
    True. And there are so many T2R variants on offer now, as well. Every one of my recent Xmas's has included several games. But for more dedicated gamers there is El Grande, 7Wonders, Terraforming Mars, Carcasonne and its many variants, Agricola and its sequels, Caverna, Puerto Rico, Navegador, Viticulture, Power Grid, the Dominion series of card games, Pandemic for an unusual team game, or even the enduring railway building games such as 1829 and its spinoffs. So many to choose from.
    1829 is, unfortunately, dross (or to be more charitable a prototype). 1830 AH is outstanding (particularly with the Reading expansion). Perhaps Europa Universalis by Azure Wish Edition....
    Isn't that a computer game?
    Boeadgame first, at the monumental scope level. The English rules were of varying coherence which one could put down to poor translation. Unfortunately in the original French they were little better.
    I always understood that EU was based on the board game Empires at Arms?
    https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/4102/europa-universalis
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Can these delusional Tory MPs like Raab not be sectioned. They’re clearly a danger to the country and themselves as they might choke on their jingoistic clap trap .

    The new Leave mantra is the country needs to suffer to strengthen its resolve . It’s amazing how these bunch of lying spivs are happy to tell the public to suffer whilst they’re sitting there with their gilded lifestyles .

    Any Leaver who believes this no deal fantasy needs to seek help !
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    LOL.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,583

    Good news for Wales - the severn crossing tolls are being removed after 50 years and by Easter both bridges will be at motorway standard.

    Thank you Alun Cairns, you absolute god! Paid my last toll yesterday, and for old times sake Highways England detoured me over the old bridge.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,230
    edited December 2018

    Brexit’s success depends on our moral fibre says man who recently discovered Britain is an island off the coast of France.
    https://twitter.com/dominicraab/status/1074372746384166920?s=21

    And how does he suggest Britain enlist the “character” of the half of the country that think that he’s wrong and who he and his fellow travellers persist in alienating?

    Clearly, it will be all their fault when it doesn’t work out as planned.

    So. You're saying they intend to blame others when they attempt to do something and fail to succeed. If only somebody had thought of a three word phrase to describe that... :)
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    notme said:

    kle4 said:

    SeanT said:

    Oort said:



    How about a motion that "in view of the Government's proposed withdrawal agreement, this House has no confidence in the prime minister"? How about it, Jeremy Corbyn? Take the initiative.

    If I recall correctly, there's a traditional Parliamentary technique for it - a motion to reduce the salary of the Minister by £1. Technically this has no effect (apart from the missing pound) but it's a symbol for "resign!".
    There are reports TMay "threatened" the EU yesterday that if they didn't improve the backstop offer, she would take her Deal - which is also their deal - and crash it, deliberately: i.e. put it to parliament, next week, knowing it would be defeated.

    Quite how that is a "threat" I dunno.

    Anyhow I don't see how she can hold on until January 21. Once the last hangover has cleared on January 2nd No Deal will loom very large, and Something Will Snap.
    I agree. May would look completely absurd if she went to the Commons and recommended it to crash the deal that she said "with all my heart " last week was the best way forward. Persons in grey suits, or perhaps white coats, would be summoned forthwith.
    Reminds me of Tsipras's speech to the Greek Parliament after he caved to the EU, where he stood and said he didn't agree with the plans he was putting forward and he didn't think they would help, but they had no choice. And it worked!
    The chips are not down though, full employment, record low unemployment, low inflation, low interest rates, wages rising faster than earnings, inequality (if you think such a thing is important) lowest for thirty years, economy stumbling along if a little slowly, deficit all but wiped out.

    Look across to the continent and it appears to be a tinder box at the moment.
    Unemployment has actually increased by 20,000 over the 3 months to November. Beyond that many of those at work are unable to obtain the fulltime hours they seek, and several hundred thousand have been cajoled into declaring themselves self employed - yet earn peanuts. The state of the High Street is causing serious fears of recession despite the economy being far too weak to cope with higher interest rates.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    edited December 2018

    Brexit’s success depends on our moral fibre says man who recently discovered Britain is an island off the coast of France.
    https://twitter.com/dominicraab/status/1074372746384166920?s=21

    Raab turns out to be a pound shop Hannan.
    Depressing.
    Raab has amazed me - just gone all ultra and talking 'tripe' (and that is me being polite)

    He will not get my wife and my votes if he even tries !!!!
    Raab is an utter clown. The epithet quarterwit flatters him.
  • nico67 said:

    Can these delusional Tory MPs like Raab not be sectioned. They’re clearly a danger to the country and themselves as they might choke on their jingoistic clap trap .

    The new Leave mantra is the country needs to suffer to strengthen its resolve . It’s amazing how these bunch of lying spivs are happy to tell the public to suffer whilst they’re sitting there with their gilded lifestyles .

    Any Leaver who believes this no deal fantasy needs to seek help !

    Unfortunately many do but it is upto the HOC to see they are stopped, and the HOC have the numbers
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,264

    Listening over the weekend to brexit coverage on the media it is clear that the average voter thinks no deal is no change whatsover in anything and it is not a problem

    They are going to be in for some awakening if there is a 100% fail by our polticians and it happens

    I suspect we may have a significant 'No Deal holiday booking concern' story emerging in the New Year which may could correct that impression for quite a few.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    2 weeks ago I was against no deal, but I'm coming round to the idea now, much like Piers and a lot of the public. Yes there will be supply side issues, yes there is a lot of paperwork to get through and yes no deal is only partially priced into the value of the pound. But ultimately overturning the first result would obviously lead to a huge crisis and turmoil, no deal would honour the result and uphold democracy and to be honest the hyperbole around project fear saying people will die etc is so far fetched than not one educated person I know takes it seriously. Quite frankly the end is nigh brigade shot their load 2 years ago with numerous false predictions that were miles from the truth and have lost their authority and lost the British public's ears.

    I do hope for a deal, and still just about expect one, but no deal is the only fair alternative if a deal fails and MPs would be right to think beyond their angry twitter followers and see that the general public are not living in fear.
  • Good news for Wales - the severn crossing tolls are being removed after 50 years and by Easter both bridges will be at motorway standard.

    Thank you Alun Cairns, you absolute god! Paid my last toll yesterday, and for old times sake Highways England detoured me over the old bridge.
    Of course it takes a conservative Secretary of State for Wales to do the right thing for business and the Welsh economy. Not that lot of Corbynistas now in Cardiff

    And may I say thank goodness Boris was not involved, he would have doubled the tolls with his attitude to Welsh businees and Airbus in particular
  • Listening over the weekend to brexit coverage on the media it is clear that the average voter thinks no deal is no change whatsover in anything and it is not a problem

    They are going to be in for some awakening if there is a 100% fail by our polticians and it happens

    Maybe, maybe not. It's entirely plausible too we'll adapt and look back wondering what all the fuss was about. I think some people secretly worry that might be true.

    Looking back to the No Confidence vote in May the argument that "this is not the time for a leadership contest" looks especially tripe now that nothing is happening on the deal until the new year. The contest could have taken place in the period May is wasting kicking her can down the last of the road.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,164
    Donny43 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Jimmy Anderson was 250-1 before the nominees for SPOTY were announced.

    Going for the Ryan Giggs style lifetime achievement award?
    To be fair, he would be a more worthy winner than Kane and probably Asher-Smith
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    and if PBers think no deal is so bad they must assume that the majority of Labour MPs are complete idiots, because pushing for a 2nd ref rather than supporting May's deal is clearly moving us closer to a no deal than another vote. Obviously your Lammys, Umunnas and Benns are not overly fussed about the 'risk' they are helping to create or they would be doing everything in their powers to push through a deal.
  • BREAKING: Number 10 confirms Prime Minister’s Christmas message will be screamed live on the Internet.

    https://twitter.com/DMReporter/status/1074380994256478210

    "screamed"?
  • justin124 said:

    notme said:

    kle4 said:

    SeanT said:

    Oort said:



    How about a motion that "in view of the Government's proposed withdrawal agreement, this House has no confidence in the prime minister"? How about it, Jeremy Corbyn? Take the initiative.

    If I recall correctly, there's a traditional Parliamentary technique for it - a motion to reduce the salary of the Minister by £1. Technically this has no effect (apart from the missing pound) but it's a symbol for "resign!".
    There are reports TMay "threatened" the EU yesterday that if they didn't improve the backstop offer, she would take her Deal - which is also their deal - and crash it, deliberately: i.e. put it to parliament, next week, knowing it would be defeated.

    Quite how that is a "threat" I dunno.

    Anyhow I don't see how she can hold on until January 21. Once the last hangover has cleared on January 2nd No Deal will loom very large, and Something Will Snap.
    I agree. May would look completely absurd if she went to the Commons and recommended it to crash the deal that she said "with all my heart " last week was the best way forward. Persons in grey suits, or perhaps white coats, would be summoned forthwith.
    Reminds me of Tsipras's speech to the Greek Parliament after he caved to the EU, where he stood and said he didn't agree with the plans he was putting forward and he didn't think they would help, but they had no choice. And it worked!
    The chips are not down though, full employment, record low unemployment, low inflation, low interest rates, wages rising faster than earnings, inequality (if you think such a thing is important) lowest for thirty years, economy stumbling along if a little slowly, deficit all but wiped out.

    Look across to the continent and it appears to be a tinder box at the moment.
    Unemployment has actually increased by 20,000 over the 3 months to November. Beyond that many of those at work are unable to obtain the fulltime hours they seek, and several hundred thousand have been cajoled into declaring themselves self employed - yet earn peanuts. The state of the High Street is causing serious fears of recession despite the economy being far too weak to cope with higher interest rates.
    With respect at a time when wages are rising higher than any time since 2010, unemployment is a record lows, and inflation is falling is not creditable

    Also the high streets demise is a result of the populations moving en masse to the new on line retail and that will continue unchanged.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201

    Listening over the weekend to brexit coverage on the media it is clear that the average voter thinks no deal is no change whatsover in anything and it is not a problem

    They are going to be in for some awakening if there is a 100% fail by our polticians and it happens

    I suspect we may have a significant 'No Deal holiday booking concern' story emerging in the New Year which may could correct that impression for quite a few.
    Sorry to disappoint you but it will be ignored as it seems every other fantasy projection from project fear. There are enough real reasons to use to provide some intelligent input about the consequences of no deal. But fantasy they do not want our money is not one.
  • Brom said:

    2 weeks ago I was against no deal, but I'm coming round to the idea now, much like Piers and a lot of the public. Yes there will be supply side issues, yes there is a lot of paperwork to get through and yes no deal is only partially priced into the value of the pound. But ultimately overturning the first result would obviously lead to a huge crisis and turmoil, no deal would honour the result and uphold democracy and to be honest the hyperbole around project fear saying people will die etc is so far fetched than not one educated person I know takes it seriously. Quite frankly the end is nigh brigade shot their load 2 years ago with numerous false predictions that were miles from the truth and have lost their authority and lost the British public's ears.

    I do hope for a deal, and still just about expect one, but no deal is the only fair alternative if a deal fails and MPs would be right to think beyond their angry twitter followers and see that the general public are not living in fear.

    TM deal is better than no deal by a mountain mile
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    edited December 2018
    viewcode said:

    Which begs the question: how would you describe the character of Gove, Johnson, Farage, Osborne, Jenkins, ... :(
    Fluid, devious, shameless, arrogant and I don't know
    Brom said:

    and if PBers think no deal is so bad they must assume that the majority of Labour MPs are complete idiots, because pushing for a 2nd ref rather than supporting May's deal is clearly moving us closer to a no deal than another vote. Obviously your Lammys, Umunnas and Benns are not overly fussed about the 'risk' they are helping to create or they would be doing everything in their powers to push through a deal.

    I think many MPs crying about the dangers of no deal do not believe it will be as bad as they say or they would not dare risk it at all, but a larger group are simply not contemplating it ever occurring because they care more about winning for remain than anything else. The judgement about A50 has reduced the risk, but they will still be in for a shock if it happens.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688
    Brom said:

    and if PBers think no deal is so bad they must assume that the majority of Labour MPs are complete idiots, because pushing for a 2nd ref rather than supporting May's deal is clearly moving us closer to a no deal than another vote. Obviously your Lammys, Umunnas and Benns are not overly fussed about the 'risk' they are helping to create or they would be doing everything in their powers to push through a deal.

    Delay and dithering suits Remainers to some extent. Labour Remainers slightly more.

    They've currently no real risk in that they can always pull back and vote for May's deal if 'No Deal' seems likely. (Lammy is a complete idiot by the way)
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    Brom said:

    and if PBers think no deal is so bad they must assume that the majority of Labour MPs are complete idiots, because pushing for a 2nd ref rather than supporting May's deal is clearly moving us closer to a no deal than another vote. Obviously your Lammys, Umunnas and Benns are not overly fussed about the 'risk' they are helping to create or they would be doing everything in their powers to push through a deal.

    LOL.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    Brom said:

    2 weeks ago I was against no deal, but I'm coming round to the idea now, much like Piers and a lot of the public. Yes there will be supply side issues, yes there is a lot of paperwork to get through and yes no deal is only partially priced into the value of the pound. But ultimately overturning the first result would obviously lead to a huge crisis and turmoil, no deal would honour the result and uphold democracy and to be honest the hyperbole around project fear saying people will die etc is so far fetched than not one educated person I know takes it seriously. Quite frankly the end is nigh brigade shot their load 2 years ago with numerous false predictions that were miles from the truth and have lost their authority and lost the British public's ears.

    I do hope for a deal, and still just about expect one, but no deal is the only fair alternative if a deal fails and MPs would be right to think beyond their angry twitter followers and see that the general public are not living in fear.

    LOL.
  • Listening over the weekend to brexit coverage on the media it is clear that the average voter thinks no deal is no change whatsover in anything and it is not a problem

    They are going to be in for some awakening if there is a 100% fail by our polticians and it happens

    Maybe, maybe not. It's entirely plausible too we'll adapt and look back wondering what all the fuss was about. I think some people secretly worry that might be true.

    Looking back to the No Confidence vote in May the argument that "this is not the time for a leadership contest" looks especially tripe now that nothing is happening on the deal until the new year. The contest could have taken place in the period May is wasting kicking her can down the last of the road.
    I warned ERG about launching it prematurely and so it has come to pass. And with respect the two weeks of xmas recess would not have permitted a leadership election. If it had happened, or when it does, 6 - 8 candidates will be in the field and the process has to go all the way to the members
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    BREAKING: Number 10 confirms Prime Minister’s Christmas message will be screamed live on the Internet.

    https://twitter.com/DMReporter/status/1074380994256478210

    I was really hoping Mrs May would communicate her message via the medium of dance.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    Brom said:

    Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.

    LOL.

    The PB Leavers are an endless source of comedy.
  • Brom said:

    and if PBers think no deal is so bad they must assume that the majority of Labour MPs are complete idiots, because pushing for a 2nd ref rather than supporting May's deal is clearly moving us closer to a no deal than another vote. Obviously your Lammys, Umunnas and Benns are not overly fussed about the 'risk' they are helping to create or they would be doing everything in their powers to push through a deal.

    Not really. If they get their way and Parliament puts it to a referendum part of that will be an extension to A50 which the EU have already said they would grant
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Have just spent some considerable time doing my best to summarise the current state of Brexit in an e-mail to my friend in Canada.

    Apparently they're in a bit of a state at the moment as well (in brief, half the provinces hate each other and some people in Alberta are starting to make grumbling noises of an SNP-type nature,) but at least I was able to provide reassurance that we're several cataracts further up the creek than they are.

    Perhaps the Western World is just going the way of the ancient Greek cities, and by 2100 there'll be no polity anywhere in the British Isles that's larger than a small town? None of us is likely to live to see it, but good news! With thousands of states to administer, there'll be a virtually inexhaustible demand for politicians. There'll have to be at least a couple of dozen regional PBs just to keep up with it all.
  • Brom said:

    Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.

    It would appear HMG lawyers are in the EU at present re the backstop. It is possible they may be seeking a legal challenge to it as Graham Brady said last week it is illegal
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,545
    Brom said:

    Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.

    So May will threaten to push the country off the cliff unless she gets her way?

    I'm not sure this tactic is likely to play well with MPs.
  • Oort said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Mr. Walker, a second May manifesto might do the trick.

    Depressingly, May is still “better” than any contender.

    Javid? Lightweight.
    Hunt? Weasel.
    Gove? Ideologue.
    Johnson? Clown.
    Rees-Mogg? Throwback.
    Hammond? Boring.
    Gauke, Lidington, Hind? Invisible.
    Rudd? Another lightweight.
    Leadsom, Mordaunt? More lightweights.
    Raab? Klutz.

    Etc

    The few good Tories who could satisfyingly lead the country are not yet in Cabinet or even in Westminster.
    I'd say Gove's capricious nature if more significant than his being an ideologue.
    I'd say his hubris and administrative incompetence are bigger issues.

    That, and the fact that he sees experts who dare to disagree with him as 'the enemy'.
    Are we really still pretending that's what Gove said?
    Look at who Michael Gove had as his adviser, first in opposition and then as a spad, who then directed Vote Leave. I wouldn't want to say anything potentially libellous; let's just say that having read hundreds of pages of Dominic Cummings's output I agree completely with the epithet assigned to him by David Cameron. That Gove chose to be advised by this guy for such a long time reflects on his judgement terribly badly. Imagine having Cummings in 10 Downing Street. Might be time to emigrate if he gets there.
    So that's a no, we aren't pretending Gove said that experts who disagree with him are the enemy?

    Meanwhile: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/12/13/gap-wealthy-poor-pupils-closing-wake-gove-primary-school-reforms/
  • kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Mr. Walker, a second May manifesto might do the trick.

    Depressingly, May is still “better” than any contender.

    Javid? Lightweight.
    Hunt? Weasel.
    Gove? Ideologue.
    Johnson? Clown.
    Rees-Mogg? Throwback.
    Hammond? Boring.
    Gauke, Lidington, Hind? Invisible.
    Rudd? Another lightweight.
    Leadsom, Mordaunt? More lightweights.
    Raab? Klutz.

    Etc

    The few good Tories who could satisfyingly lead the country are not yet in Cabinet or even in Westminster.
    I'd say Gove's capricious nature if more significant than his being an ideologue.
    I'd say his hubris and administrative incompetence are bigger issues.

    That, and the fact that he sees experts who dare to disagree with him as 'the enemy'.
    Wasn't he just being critical of specific experts not expertise in general?
    Not even that. He was being critical of pretended experts who keep coming up with the wrong answer but are somehow still touted as experts.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    Brom said:

    Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.

    It would appear HMG lawyers are in the EU at present re the backstop. It is possible they may be seeking a legal challenge to it as Graham Brady said last week it is illegal
    Well then why did we ever agree to it, and if it is removed on the basis of illegality why would the EU not withdraw its support for the rest of the WA, since it was contingent on it?
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited December 2018
    I was in Goettingen ..nr Hanover for a wedding.. Brexit was banned as a subject for discussion during the festivities but it was clear from what was said before the ban.. that as far as my friends were concerned ... France and Germany are terrified that Britain leaving will be the precursor to others refusing the yoke.. the Germans worry about being so close to Russia...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    Brom said:

    Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.

    So May will threaten to push the country off the cliff unless she gets her way?

    I'm not sure this tactic is likely to play well with MPs.
    She is hardly alone in that tactic. indeed most MPs are indulging in all or nothing tactics. But I suspect whatever her wishes May simply cannot hold off for much longer - comments like Gauke's show she cannot rely on her Cabinet to play such a game of chicken as they dislike no deal too much for a start.
  • kle4 said:

    Brom said:

    Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.

    It would appear HMG lawyers are in the EU at present re the backstop. It is possible they may be seeking a legal challenge to it as Graham Brady said last week it is illegal
    Well then why did we ever agree to it, and if it is removed on the basis of illegality why would the EU not withdraw its support for the rest of the WA, since it was contingent on it?
    Well, that is a very good question way above my paygrade but I did think a throw away line on one of the media reports was interesting in that it mentioned HMG lawyers and the backstop and the WDA
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    Brom said:

    Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.

    So May will threaten to push the country off the cliff unless she gets her way?

    I'm not sure this tactic is likely to play well with MPs.
    I never expected my own country to use the Blazing Saddles gambit, but I suppose there's a first time for everything.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,264

    Have just spent some considerable time doing my best to summarise the current state of Brexit in an e-mail to my friend in Canada.

    Apparently they're in a bit of a state at the moment as well (in brief, half the provinces hate each other and some people in Alberta are starting to make grumbling noises of an SNP-type nature,) but at least I was able to provide reassurance that we're several cataracts further up the creek than they are.

    Perhaps the Western World is just going the way of the ancient Greek cities, and by 2100 there'll be no polity anywhere in the British Isles that's larger than a small town? None of us is likely to live to see it, but good news! With thousands of states to administer, there'll be a virtually inexhaustible demand for politicians. There'll have to be at least a couple of dozen regional PBs just to keep up with it all.

    I think you'll find if any other PBs spring up they will simply be vassal-sites to the one true PB :wink:
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    Have just spent some considerable time doing my best to summarise the current state of Brexit in an e-mail to my friend in Canada.

    Apparently they're in a bit of a state at the moment as well (in brief, half the provinces hate each other and some people in Alberta are starting to make grumbling noises of an SNP-type nature,) but at least I was able to provide reassurance that we're several cataracts further up the creek than they are.

    Perhaps the Western World is just going the way of the ancient Greek cities, and by 2100 there'll be no polity anywhere in the British Isles that's larger than a small town? None of us is likely to live to see it, but good news! With thousands of states to administer, there'll be a virtually inexhaustible demand for politicians. There'll have to be at least a couple of dozen regional PBs just to keep up with it all.

    I think you'll find if any other PBs spring up they will simply be vassal-sites to the one true PB :wink:
    I'd rather burn the servers than see a venerable institution accept lesser status!
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,545
    kle4 said:

    Brom said:

    Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.

    So May will threaten to push the country off the cliff unless she gets her way?

    I'm not sure this tactic is likely to play well with MPs.
    She is hardly alone in that tactic. indeed most MPs are indulging in all or nothing tactics. But I suspect whatever her wishes May simply cannot hold off for much longer - comments like Gauke's show she cannot rely on her Cabinet to play such a game of chicken as they dislike no deal too much for a start.
    Yes I think there is a possibility that the Cabinet will push May over the cliff if she does not concede that the deal is lost.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,264
    edited December 2018

    Listening over the weekend to brexit coverage on the media it is clear that the average voter thinks no deal is no change whatsover in anything and it is not a problem

    They are going to be in for some awakening if there is a 100% fail by our polticians and it happens

    I suspect we may have a significant 'No Deal holiday booking concern' story emerging in the New Year which may could correct that impression for quite a few.
    Sorry to disappoint you but it will be ignored as it seems every other fantasy projection from project fear. There are enough real reasons to use to provide some intelligent input about the consequences of no deal. But fantasy they do not want our money is not one.

    Who said anything about 'they do not want our money'? The legitimate question was raised here yesterday about whether it was safe to book a holiday to Europe for after 29th March - in the event of any disruption would your travel insurance or ABTA cover you?
    Answer = No one was sure.

    Also today's ST front page:


    image
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,224
    edited December 2018

    Brom said:

    2 weeks ago I was against no deal, but I'm coming round to the idea now, much like Piers and a lot of the public. Yes there will be supply side issues, yes there is a lot of paperwork to get through and yes no deal is only partially priced into the value of the pound. But ultimately overturning the first result would obviously lead to a huge crisis and turmoil, no deal would honour the result and uphold democracy and to be honest the hyperbole around project fear saying people will die etc is so far fetched than not one educated person I know takes it seriously. Quite frankly the end is nigh brigade shot their load 2 years ago with numerous false predictions that were miles from the truth and have lost their authority and lost the British public's ears.

    I do hope for a deal, and still just about expect one, but no deal is the only fair alternative if a deal fails and MPs would be right to think beyond their angry twitter followers and see that the general public are not living in fear.

    TM deal is better than no deal by a mountain mile
    Yes, I am sure that is right, Big G. It makes you wonder why so many MPs are against it.

    Their opposition puts the country at great peril, but has the upside that it makes Remain a probabilty (but no certainty.)
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    John_M said:

    BREAKING: Number 10 confirms Prime Minister’s Christmas message will be screamed live on the Internet.

    https://twitter.com/DMReporter/status/1074380994256478210

    I was really hoping Mrs May would communicate her message via the medium of dance.
    Mine would be good; her voice isn't the easiest to listen to?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    Brom said:

    2 weeks ago I was against no deal, but I'm coming round to the idea now, much like Piers and a lot of the public. Yes there will be supply side issues, yes there is a lot of paperwork to get through and yes no deal is only partially priced into the value of the pound. But ultimately overturning the first result would obviously lead to a huge crisis and turmoil, no deal would honour the result and uphold democracy and to be honest the hyperbole around project fear saying people will die etc is so far fetched than not one educated person I know takes it seriously. Quite frankly the end is nigh brigade shot their load 2 years ago with numerous false predictions that were miles from the truth and have lost their authority and lost the British public's ears.

    I do hope for a deal, and still just about expect one, but no deal is the only fair alternative if a deal fails and MPs would be right to think beyond their angry twitter followers and see that the general public are not living in fear.

    TM deal is better than no deal by a mountain mile
    Yes, I am sure that is right, Big G. It makes you wonder why so many MPs are against it.

    Their oppoaition puts the country at great peril, but has the upside that it makes Remain a probabilty (but no certainty.)
    You last point explains the first to a large degree (though clearly not all objection is from those seeking remain)
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    edited December 2018

    Listening over the weekend to brexit coverage on the media it is clear that the average voter thinks no deal is no change whatsover in anything and it is not a problem

    They are going to be in for some awakening if there is a 100% fail by our polticians and it happens

    I suspect we may have a significant 'No Deal holiday booking concern' story emerging in the New Year which may could correct that impression for quite a few.
    Sorry to disappoint you but it will be ignored as it seems every other fantasy projection from project fear. There are enough real reasons to use to provide some intelligent input about the consequences of no deal. But fantasy they do not want our money is not one.

    Who said anything about 'they do not want our money'? The legitimate question was raised here yesterday about whether it was safe to book a holiday to Europe for after 29th March - in the event of any disruption would your travel insurance or ABTA cover you?
    Answer = No one was sure.

    Also today's ST front page:


    image
    A load of "A" citizens discussing the legal implications. All the CDE peoples will say "If they do not want our money."

    It is the whole problem of the remain campaign it is aimed at gullible AB's whereas the CDE's with their very sensitive bullshit detectors are talking a totally different language. When remain understands this it may have a chance,
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,264

    BREAKING: Number 10 confirms Prime Minister’s Christmas message will be screamed live on the Internet.

    https://twitter.com/DMReporter/status/1074380994256478210

    "screamed"?
    I think that is the central point of the joke Philip.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,264

    Listening over the weekend to brexit coverage on the media it is clear that the average voter thinks no deal is no change whatsover in anything and it is not a problem

    They are going to be in for some awakening if there is a 100% fail by our polticians and it happens

    I suspect we may have a significant 'No Deal holiday booking concern' story emerging in the New Year which may could correct that impression for quite a few.
    Sorry to disappoint you but it will be ignored as it seems every other fantasy projection from project fear. There are enough real reasons to use to provide some intelligent input about the consequences of no deal. But fantasy they do not want our money is not one.

    Who said anything about 'they do not want our money'? The legitimate question was raised here yesterday about whether it was safe to book a holiday to Europe for after 29th March - in the event of any disruption would your travel insurance or ABTA cover you?
    Answer = No one was sure.

    Also today's ST front page:


    image
    A load of A citizens discussing the legal implications. All the CDE peoples will say "If they do not want our money."

    It is the whole problem of the remain campaign it is aimed at gullible AB's whereas the CDE's with their very sensitive bullshit detectors are talking a totally different language. When remain understands this it may have a chance,
    Well we'll see. I suspect many people will choose to holiday in the UK or possibly outside Europe but who knows?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,732

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Mr. Walker, a second May manifesto might do the trick.

    Depressingly, May is still “better” than any contender.

    Javid? Lightweight.
    Hunt? Weasel.
    Gove? Ideologue.
    Johnson? Clown.
    Rees-Mogg? Throwback.
    Hammond? Boring.
    Gauke, Lidington, Hind? Invisible.
    Rudd? Another lightweight.
    Leadsom, Mordaunt? More lightweights.
    Raab? Klutz.

    Etc

    The few good Tories who could satisfyingly lead the country are not yet in Cabinet or even in Westminster.
    I'd say Gove's capricious nature if more significant than his being an ideologue.
    I'd say his hubris and administrative incompetence are bigger issues.

    That, and the fact that he sees experts who dare to disagree with him as 'the enemy'.
    Wasn't he just being critical of specific experts not expertise in general?
    Not even that. He was being critical of pretended experts who keep coming up with the wrong answer but are somehow still touted as experts.
    Like himself and Adonis, you mean?

    I don't care whether he said any such thing - I don't know if he did. I'm telling you how he acts. He sees anyone who disagrees with him as the enemy. Even and perhaps especially when they are proved right, as they have been over both education and Brexit.

    That is why he would be a dreadful choice as Prime Minister, a slightly less principled and considerably more arrogant version of Corbyn.
  • kle4 said:

    Brom said:

    2 weeks ago I was against no deal, but I'm coming round to the idea now, much like Piers and a lot of the public. Yes there will be supply side issues, yes there is a lot of paperwork to get through and yes no deal is only partially priced into the value of the pound. But ultimately overturning the first result would obviously lead to a huge crisis and turmoil, no deal would honour the result and uphold democracy and to be honest the hyperbole around project fear saying people will die etc is so far fetched than not one educated person I know takes it seriously. Quite frankly the end is nigh brigade shot their load 2 years ago with numerous false predictions that were miles from the truth and have lost their authority and lost the British public's ears.

    I do hope for a deal, and still just about expect one, but no deal is the only fair alternative if a deal fails and MPs would be right to think beyond their angry twitter followers and see that the general public are not living in fear.

    TM deal is better than no deal by a mountain mile
    Yes, I am sure that is right, Big G. It makes you wonder why so many MPs are against it.

    Their oppoaition puts the country at great peril, but has the upside that it makes Remain a probabilty (but no certainty.)
    You last point explains the first to a large degree (though clearly not all objection is from those seeking remain)
    As you are aware, K, I am a gambler. I wouldn't dream of risking my whole betting bank on an uncertain outcome. I would always accept the less favorable outcome and cut my losses. For any gambler, the correct decision is obvious. But MPs are not gamblers, and they evidently are driven by considerations other than the economic benefit to the country, so goodness knows what outcome we will finish up with.
  • Donny43Donny43 Posts: 634

    Brom said:

    2 weeks ago I was against no deal, but I'm coming round to the idea now, much like Piers and a lot of the public. Yes there will be supply side issues, yes there is a lot of paperwork to get through and yes no deal is only partially priced into the value of the pound. But ultimately overturning the first result would obviously lead to a huge crisis and turmoil, no deal would honour the result and uphold democracy and to be honest the hyperbole around project fear saying people will die etc is so far fetched than not one educated person I know takes it seriously. Quite frankly the end is nigh brigade shot their load 2 years ago with numerous false predictions that were miles from the truth and have lost their authority and lost the British public's ears.

    I do hope for a deal, and still just about expect one, but no deal is the only fair alternative if a deal fails and MPs would be right to think beyond their angry twitter followers and see that the general public are not living in fear.

    TM deal is better than no deal by a mountain mile
    Yes, I am sure that is right, Big G. It makes you wonder why so many MPs are against it.

    Their opposition puts the country at great peril, but has the upside that it makes Remain a probabilty (but no certainty.)
    The Deal is very few MPs' first preference of the three possibilities. But it's also very few MPs' third preference.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    notme said:

    kle4 said:

    SeanT said:

    Oort said:



    How about a motion that "in view of the Government's proposed withdrawal agreement, this House has no confidence in the prime minister"? How about it, Jeremy Corbyn? Take the initiative.

    If I recall correctly, there's a traditional Parliamentary technique for it - a motion to reduce the salary of the Minister by £1. Technically this has no effect (apart from the missing pound) but it's a symbol for "resign!".
    There are reports TMay "threatened" the EU yesterday that if they didn't improve the backstop offer, she would take her Deal - which is also their deal - and crash it, deliberately: i.e. put it to parliament, next week, knowing it would be defeated.

    Quite how that is a "threat" I dunno.

    Anyhow I don't see how she can hold on until January 21. Once the last hangover has cleared on January 2nd No Deal will loom very large, and Something Will Snap.
    I agree. May would look completely absurd if she went to the Commons and recommended it to crash the deal that she said "with all my heart " last week was the best way forward. Persons in grey suits, or perhaps white coats, would be summoned forthwith.
    Unemployment has actually increased by 20,000 over the 3 months to November. Beyond that many of those at work are unable to obtain the fulltime hours they seek, and several hundred thousand have been cajoled into declaring themselves self employed - yet earn peanuts. The state of the High Street is causing serious fears of recession despite the economy being far too weak to cope with higher interest rates.
    With respect at a time when wages are rising higher than any time since 2010, unemployment is a record lows, and inflation is falling is not creditable

    Also the high streets demise is a result of the populations moving en masse to the new on line retail and that will continue unchanged.
    Unemployment cannot be at a record low when the official data shows an increase of 20,000 over 3 months! Beyond that there is much hidden unemployment - with many working far fewer hours than they seek and others removed from the headline figures by declaring themselves 'self employed' despite earning paltry sums. Real wages remain lower than a decade ago- and the failure to raise interest rates highlights how fragile the monetary authorities believe the economy to be.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,732
    kle4 said:

    Brom said:

    Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.

    It would appear HMG lawyers are in the EU at present re the backstop. It is possible they may be seeking a legal challenge to it as Graham Brady said last week it is illegal
    Well then why did we ever agree to it, and if it is removed on the basis of illegality why would the EU not withdraw its support for the rest of the WA, since it was contingent on it?
    Moreover, why the hell are we arguing about it now when we should bank it, sign the deal and only if they try to activate it point out that they can't under their own rules? Not only would that blow up Europe's strategy, but probably abruptly end the career of that pompous stuck up two faced Fascist ideologue Selmayr (the only man in Europe more useless than Gove).
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,264
    As an aside, thanks for all the good suggestions of family boardgames and the boardgamegeek site which I wasn't aware of.

    Being in need of some new games I read a bit about each suggestion. Not really being into fantasy in a huge way, I have whittled down to the following:

    Ticket to Ride,
    Codenames
    7Wonders,
    Viticulture,
    Pandemic
    Thunderbirds

    ... which all look like fun.

    Thanks!
  • Brom said:

    Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.

    No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,224
    edited December 2018

    Brom said:

    Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.

    No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
    Must be a different Town to the one the rest of us live in, AA.
  • Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 807
    Harry Kane... embarrassing... football was coming home until he decided his Golden Boot was more important than beating Croatia...
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486

    As an aside, thanks for all the good suggestions of family boardgames and the boardgamegeek site which I wasn't aware of.

    Being in need of some new games I read a bit about each suggestion. Not really being into fantasy in a huge way, I have whittled down to the following:

    Ticket to Ride,
    Codenames
    7Wonders,
    Viticulture,
    Pandemic
    Thunderbirds

    ... which all look like fun.

    Thanks!

    Settlers of Catan is a good game and not as complex as e.g. 7 Wonders.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486

    Brom said:

    Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.

    No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
    No deal is so awesome that every country in the world is just dying to NOT have trade deals with anyone else.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,230

    Brom said:

    Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.

    No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
    Yet "no deal" give us even less... :(
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited December 2018
    I do think that people conflate 'the withdrawal agreement' with 'the deal'. The WA is temporary, we have no idea what 'the deal' will look like, other than it will be 'an ambitious FTA'.

    The idea that the EU, big as it is, could keep the UK as a vassal state in perpetuity is bonkers. People are being overly paranoid.

    Brexit means Brexit. The WA is Brexit.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    viewcode said:

    Brom said:

    Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.

    No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
    Yet "no deal" give us even less... :(
    Freedom.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    Brom said:

    Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.

    No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
    Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    John_M said:

    I do think that people conflate 'the withdrawal agreement' with 'the deal'. The WA is temporary, we have no idea what 'the deal' will look like, other than it will be 'an ambitious FTA'.

    The idea that the EU, big as it is, could keep the UK as a vassal state in perpetuity is bonkers. People are being overly paranoid.

    Brexit means Brexit. The WA is Brexit.

    They also assume despite us being so awesome that we have no chance of improving things down the line. Very defeatest.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    As an aside, thanks for all the good suggestions of family boardgames and the boardgamegeek site which I wasn't aware of.

    Being in need of some new games I read a bit about each suggestion. Not really being into fantasy in a huge way, I have whittled down to the following:

    Ticket to Ride,
    Codenames
    7Wonders,
    Viticulture,
    Pandemic
    Thunderbirds

    ... which all look like fun.

    Thanks!

    Ticket to Ride is an excellent gateway game, especially as it comes with the expansion as standard nowadays.

    The Big Cities variant is the best way to play once you have a grasp on the basics.
  • What we've learned from Brexit is that the Dunning-Kruger effect can apply to entire political parties and indeed electorates.


    Yep - all those Remainers claiming we can’t manage on our own and wanting “managed decline” being a prime example.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Listening over the weekend to brexit coverage on the media it is clear that the average voter thinks no deal is no change whatsover in anything and it is not a problem

    They are going to be in for some awakening if there is a 100% fail by our polticians and it happens

    I suspect we may have a significant 'No Deal holiday booking concern' story emerging in the New Year which may could correct that impression for quite a few.
    Sorry to disappoint you but it will be ignored as it seems every other fantasy projection from project fear. There are enough real reasons to use to provide some intelligent input about the consequences of no deal. But fantasy they do not want our money is not one.

    Who said anything about 'they do not want our money'? The legitimate question was raised here yesterday about whether it was safe to book a holiday to Europe for after 29th March - in the event of any disruption would your travel insurance or ABTA cover you?
    Answer = No one was sure.

    Also today's ST front page:


    image
    A load of "A" citizens discussing the legal implications. All the CDE peoples will say "If they do not want our money."

    It is the whole problem of the remain campaign it is aimed at gullible AB's whereas the CDE's with their very sensitive bullshit detectors are talking a totally different language. When remain understands this it may have a chance,
    LOL
  • What we've learned from Brexit is that the Dunning-Kruger effect can apply to entire political parties and indeed electorates.


    Yep - all those Remainers claiming we can’t manage on our own and wanting “managed decline” being a prime example.
    No deal is a sure route to rapid decline.
  • kle4 said:

    Brom said:

    Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.

    No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
    Other than us leaving the EU of course. However imperfectly people feel it does so, it does that.
    Not in any meaningful sense. We can’t deviate from EU laws; fishing, freedom of movement, payment for trade and immigration and all dependent upon what actually happens during the trade negotiations where we have to contend with the ridiculous backstop. No Brexit at all is a better deal, and I say that as a Leaver.
  • viewcode said:

    Brom said:

    Obviously May is right to delay her deal and I hope she gives the house no alternative to accept it or to face no deal. Those seeking other options are just betraying the public and offering no rational end game.

    No deal is the only game in town. May’s deal gives us nothing.
    Yet "no deal" give us even less... :(
    You must have been in the turps this evening if you believe that.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,230

    What we've learned from Brexit is that the Dunning-Kruger effect can apply to entire political parties and indeed electorates.


    Yep - all those Remainers claiming we can’t manage on our own and wanting “managed decline” being a prime example.
    Clip, clop, clip, clop. Oh, a bridge....

This discussion has been closed.