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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » With the DUP and Moggsy backing Theresa it looks as though LAB

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  • The Government and the DUP calling Corbyns vnoc in TM a stunt and challenging him to put down a vnoc in the government is exactly the correct action and is just going to annoy voters even more against Corbyn

    'Bring it on if you think you are hard enough' is a great challenge
  • I think that sums it up. Both May and Corbyn both want Brexit to happen and thus both support May's deal. Both know that they may very likely have their formal positions over run by their respective parties and thus have to come out for no deal/2nd ref. So they are locked in a strange dance. Both could well conspire to pass May's deal, neither will want to fire first on their fall back positions but either may fire first if they think their parties are going to first fire for them.
  • Roger said:

    It's difficult to know what Jeremy was thinking. Maybe he felt sorry for her.

    Does he do thinking
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,748
    edited December 2018
    Omnium said:

    What have we come to that Corbyn has influence over us?

    All that squawking & squealing over the vague possibility of the SNP having a teeny bit of hypothetical influence over you probably helped.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049
    kle4 said:

    chloe said:

    I wonder if Corbyn will now move a formal VONC in the government. I fail to see though how this resolves the Brexit conundrum. I wish the MV had happened last week and if it had not passed now MPs were working to find a solution that honours the referendum and protects jobs and the economy.

    Indeed. One of May's more indefensible decisions.
    It's not indefensible if she plays a waiting game and gets her deal through...it would be seen as political genius....
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,585
    tyson said:

    kle4 said:

    chloe said:

    I wonder if Corbyn will now move a formal VONC in the government. I fail to see though how this resolves the Brexit conundrum. I wish the MV had happened last week and if it had not passed now MPs were working to find a solution that honours the referendum and protects jobs and the economy.

    Indeed. One of May's more indefensible decisions.
    It's not indefensible if she plays a waiting game and gets her deal through...it would be seen as political genius....
    She has run rings around both Labour and the ERG.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,083
    Clever, but sadly academic as the government isn't giving the Labour motion any time and the other parties don't have right to time for a VONC
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    tyson said:

    kle4 said:

    chloe said:

    I wonder if Corbyn will now move a formal VONC in the government. I fail to see though how this resolves the Brexit conundrum. I wish the MV had happened last week and if it had not passed now MPs were working to find a solution that honours the referendum and protects jobs and the economy.

    Indeed. One of May's more indefensible decisions.
    It's not indefensible if she plays a waiting game and gets her deal through...it would be seen as political genius....
    Blackmail is not genius.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,083
    edited December 2018
    tyson said:

    kle4 said:

    chloe said:

    I wonder if Corbyn will now move a formal VONC in the government. I fail to see though how this resolves the Brexit conundrum. I wish the MV had happened last week and if it had not passed now MPs were working to find a solution that honours the referendum and protects jobs and the economy.

    Indeed. One of May's more indefensible decisions.
    It's not indefensible if she plays a waiting game and gets her deal through...it would be seen as political genius....
    Remind me how she became PM again?

    Edit/ I remember now: by waiting until all the other options destroyed themselves.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,757

    The Government and the DUP calling Corbyns vnoc in TM a stunt and challenging him to put down a vnoc in the government is exactly the correct action and is just going to annoy voters even more against Corbyn

    'Bring it on if you think you are hard enough' is a great challenge

    It depends on how it's seen. If it's seen as Labour failing to put down a meaningful vote because they're frit, they will suffer. If it's seen as May dodging the vote, she'll take a hit.
  • Jeez all sides look like morons out of this....
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688
    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    dyingswan said:

    How the hell did Corbyn manage to get 2 Es at A Level?

    A Levels were easier in his day, they've considerably harder afterwards, peaking in 1997.
    Much harder in his day, but if a Uni liked you you could still study and get a grant with two Es. I guess no-one liked him. I can see why.
    Possibly harder to get top grades, but pass level was easy.

    Not just A-levels either. A degree without honours at Cambridge was a piece of paper with some Latin on it.
    Which of the pieces of paper did you get from Cambridge? Ordinary degrees are rare, but I've not met anyone who wasn't outstanding in later life that has such a thing.

    At A level people failed. I'm not so sure they do so now.

    You would be sure wrongly. I have had several students fail.

    And I went to a proper university.
    I've no argument with Hull's reputation...

    Tricky ground when it's your student's that are underperforming.

    'A' level grades have declined substantially in merit, as have degree classes. I don't think this is a UK thing - it's much more general.
    That, unfortunately, is not true. They are now very hard to get. They're all the harder when the marking criteria is wrong because Amanda Spielman is a lowlife and Gove is a failure, and the Principal Exmainer for one module was so dense he didn't know the Duke of Suffolk was murdered in 1450.

    And as for the abuse about my students underperforming, sit them yourself before you try to bully anyone further with your lies and ignorance. If you get a decent mark, by all means criticise. You would fail, but that would at least be very funny.
    Sorry. I didn't mean for one moment to abuse you for your students performance. It was tongue in cheek. I don't think you really have grounds to believe that it was my intent to be rude, but if you took it amiss then I apologise wholeheartedly.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,400
    Jonathan said:

    kle4 said:

    chloe said:

    I wonder if Corbyn will now move a formal VONC in the government. I fail to see though how this resolves the Brexit conundrum. I wish the MV had happened last week and if it had not passed now MPs were working to find a solution that honours the referendum and protects jobs and the economy.

    Indeed. One of May's more indefensible decisions.
    The day she put herself before country. Totally lost me at that point.
    And me. I can still defend many of the actions she did and has since taken, but I see no justification for that action, no way it has actually helped this situation as even some other delays could conceivably do.
    tyson said:

    kle4 said:

    chloe said:

    I wonder if Corbyn will now move a formal VONC in the government. I fail to see though how this resolves the Brexit conundrum. I wish the MV had happened last week and if it had not passed now MPs were working to find a solution that honours the referendum and protects jobs and the economy.

    Indeed. One of May's more indefensible decisions.
    It's not indefensible if she plays a waiting game and gets her deal through...it would be seen as political genius....
    I'll grant you that - if she gets this deal through, even at the cost of her government, it will be an incredible and unlikely political accomplishment (the positives and negatives of that accomplishment for history to decide. However, you will forgive me if I regard that as a vanishingly small possibility - support for the deal in parliament does not seem to have increased one iota in a month.
  • A year or so ago I made a comment that most healthcare companies were planning to move from uk regulation to EC regulation. This was dismissed as project fear. Well in this case I was right. Funny that I know more about my industry than armchair critics. The price for more control of freedom of movement is complete loss of control over the economy
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    edited December 2018
    Brexit is awesome.

    Best thing this country has ever done.
  • ydoethur said:

    The Government and the DUP calling Corbyns vnoc in TM a stunt and challenging him to put down a vnoc in the government is exactly the correct action and is just going to annoy voters even more against Corbyn

    'Bring it on if you think you are hard enough' is a great challenge

    It depends on how it's seen. If it's seen as Labour failing to put down a meaningful vote because they're frit, they will suffer. If it's seen as May dodging the vote, she'll take a hit.
    I think most people will go politicians being pillocks, time for the Christmas piss up.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,400
    Jonathan said:

    tyson said:

    kle4 said:

    chloe said:

    I wonder if Corbyn will now move a formal VONC in the government. I fail to see though how this resolves the Brexit conundrum. I wish the MV had happened last week and if it had not passed now MPs were working to find a solution that honours the referendum and protects jobs and the economy.

    Indeed. One of May's more indefensible decisions.
    It's not indefensible if she plays a waiting game and gets her deal through...it would be seen as political genius....
    Blackmail is not genius.
    It's not blackmail to push your view and use every political tool you have to get people to support that view. The genius would be in getting it through despite so much opposition at the start, the method would not make it less genius, just less honourable, scrupulous and praiseworthy.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,400
    edited December 2018
    You can amend a confidence motion? Parliamentary procedure is bizarre. I'm in the final stages of a Poirot story and the reveal is not as ridiculous as parliament right now, and that's saying something.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,757
    Omnium said:

    Sorry. I didn't mean for one moment to abuse you for your students performance. It was tongue in cheek. I don't think you really have grounds to believe that it was my intent to be rude, but if you took it amiss then I apologise wholeheartedly.

    Well, I clearly misunderstood you. I may be being a bit sensitive because somebody was cocking about with exam reforms on the last thread and refusing to accept y'know, things like facts about how disastrously screwed up things are right now. It is making me ill - and I mean that seriously.

    Your apology is accepted. Similarly, I apologise for misunderstanding and flying off the handle with unkind remarks about your grammar which was almost certainly autocorrect. I've had jokes that were taken the wrong way and I know it doesn't feel great.

    Incidentally, my autocorrect somehow misspells 'because' all the time. Does anyone know how to fix it?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,083
    kle4 said:

    You can amend a confidence motion? Parliamentary procedure is bizarre. I'm in the final stages of a Poirot story and the reveal is not as ridiculous as parliament right now, and that's saying something.
    But you can't change the nature of it until the amendment is taken and carried. So in terms of parliamentary time Labour's meaningless vote isn't going to be getting any.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    tyson said:

    kle4 said:

    chloe said:

    I wonder if Corbyn will now move a formal VONC in the government. I fail to see though how this resolves the Brexit conundrum. I wish the MV had happened last week and if it had not passed now MPs were working to find a solution that honours the referendum and protects jobs and the economy.

    Indeed. One of May's more indefensible decisions.
    It's not indefensible if she plays a waiting game and gets her deal through...it would be seen as political genius....
    Blackmail is not genius.
    It's not blackmail to push your view and use every political tool you have to get people to support that view. The genius would be in getting it through despite so much opposition at the start, the method would not make it less genius, just less honourable, scrupulous and praiseworthy.
    Taking the country to the brink as a device to get your way and not compromise is blackmail.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,400
    It's what they are both most comfortable in doing rather than confronting the choices right now.
    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1074772175788392448
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,083

    Brexit is awesome.

    Best thing this country has ever done.

    We did it?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,757
    kle4 said:

    You can amend a confidence motion? Parliamentary procedure is bizarre. I'm in the final stages of a Poirot story and the reveal is not as ridiculous as parliament right now, and that's saying something.
    At this moment, it's a plague on all their houses, but Labour are looking the most inept.

    Which is almost incredible.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,400
    Jonathan said:

    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    tyson said:

    kle4 said:

    chloe said:

    I wonder if Corbyn will now move a formal VONC in the government. I fail to see though how this resolves the Brexit conundrum. I wish the MV had happened last week and if it had not passed now MPs were working to find a solution that honours the referendum and protects jobs and the economy.

    Indeed. One of May's more indefensible decisions.
    It's not indefensible if she plays a waiting game and gets her deal through...it would be seen as political genius....
    Blackmail is not genius.
    It's not blackmail to push your view and use every political tool you have to get people to support that view. The genius would be in getting it through despite so much opposition at the start, the method would not make it less genius, just less honourable, scrupulous and praiseworthy.
    Taking the country to the brink as a device to get your way and not compromise is blackmail.
    I respectfully disagree. It's reckless, it's possibly very selfish, and it may even be unprincipled, but MPs have a way to force her out, they are under no obligation to do as she wants, but nor is she under an obligation to give them what they want. And them crying about the PM not doing what they want does not make it blackmail. Being pressured does not make it blackmail. They have choices, they just don't like the ones she is presenting them.

    Nor do I for that matter. But being presented choices you don't like is not blackmail.
  • IanB2 said:

    Brexit is awesome.

    Best thing this country has ever done.

    We did it?
    We did as a nation.

    It is awesome as it means we end up rejoining as full blown members of the EU.

    We're going to take our rightful place at the heart of Europe and we owe it to Leavers and the ERG in particular.
  • Alistair said:
    Trump really is swamping the drain.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    tyson said:

    kle4 said:

    chloe said:

    I wonder if Corbyn will now move a formal VONC in the government. I fail to see though how this resolves the Brexit conundrum. I wish the MV had happened last week and if it had not passed now MPs were working to find a solution that honours the referendum and protects jobs and the economy.

    Indeed. One of May's more indefensible decisions.
    It's not indefensible if she plays a waiting game and gets her deal through...it would be seen as political genius....
    Blackmail is not genius.
    It's not blackmail to push your view and use every political tool you have to get people to support that view. The genius would be in getting it through despite so much opposition at the start, the method would not make it less genius, just less honourable, scrupulous and praiseworthy.
    Taking the country to the brink as a device to get your way and not compromise is blackmail.
    I respectfully disagree. It's reckless, it's possibly very selfish, and it may even be unprincipled, but MPs have a way to force her out, they are under no obligation to do as she wants, but nor is she under an obligation to give them what they want. And them crying about the PM not doing what they want does not make it blackmail. Being pressured does not make it blackmail. They have choices, they just don't like the ones she is presenting them.

    Nor do I for that matter. But being presented choices you don't like is not blackmail.
    Respect right back at you. But you are wrong. The PMs job it to lead not coerce. She had a vote but ran away. She does not have the votes, putting people under duress is blackmail. Which will either fail and exhaust better alternatives or introduce bitterness and illegitimacy into the outcome. I thought she was better than that, I was wrong.
  • Oh God. I've been out all day doing voluntary work and xmas shopping.

    can someone post a short summary of what the actual fuck is going on?

    Thanks.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Jonathan said:

    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    tyson said:

    kle4 said:

    chloe said:

    I wonder if Corbyn will now move a formal VONC in the government. I fail to see though how this resolves the Brexit conundrum. I wish the MV had happened last week and if it had not passed now MPs were working to find a solution that honours the referendum and protects jobs and the economy.

    Indeed. One of May's more indefensible decisions.
    It's not indefensible if she plays a waiting game and gets her deal through...it would be seen as political genius....
    Blackmail is not genius.
    It's not blackmail to push your view and use every political tool you have to get people to support that view. The genius would be in getting it through despite so much opposition at the start, the method would not make it less genius, just less honourable, scrupulous and praiseworthy.
    Taking the country to the brink as a device to get your way and not compromise is blackmail.
    Yes but enough about Corbyn
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Oh God. I've been out all day doing voluntary work and xmas shopping.

    can someone post a short summary of what the actual fuck is going on?

    Thanks.

    No.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623

    IanB2 said:

    Brexit is awesome.

    Best thing this country has ever done.

    We did it?
    We did as a nation.

    It is awesome as it means we end up rejoining as full blown members of the EU.

    We're going to take our rightful place at the heart of Europe and we owe it to Leavers and the ERG in particular.
    At some point we'll go back to "normal" politics and be disappointed at the realisation that it's not got leader votes of no confidence, government votes of no confidence, emergency debates, governments in contempt, meaningful votes, second referendums, general elections etc. etc. every other day.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,695

    Oh God. I've been out all day doing voluntary work and xmas shopping.

    can someone post a short summary of what the actual fuck is going on?

    Thanks.

    Everyone in Parliament is running around like headless chickens and we're another day closer to 29th March 2019.

    Merry Christmas! :D
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Pulpstar said:

    Jonathan said:

    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    tyson said:

    kle4 said:

    chloe said:

    I wonder if Corbyn will now move a formal VONC in the government. I fail to see though how this resolves the Brexit conundrum. I wish the MV had happened last week and if it had not passed now MPs were working to find a solution that honours the referendum and protects jobs and the economy.

    Indeed. One of May's more indefensible decisions.
    It's not indefensible if she plays a waiting game and gets her deal through...it would be seen as political genius....
    Blackmail is not genius.
    It's not blackmail to push your view and use every political tool you have to get people to support that view. The genius would be in getting it through despite so much opposition at the start, the method would not make it less genius, just less honourable, scrupulous and praiseworthy.
    Taking the country to the brink as a device to get your way and not compromise is blackmail.
    Yes but enough about Corbyn
    Corbyn did not call the MV and cancel it at the 11th hour just because they would lose.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,400

    Oh God. I've been out all day doing voluntary work and xmas shopping.

    can someone post a short summary of what the actual fuck is going on?

    Thanks.

    Parliament is engaging in procedural arguments in order to put off making decisions.

    Only there's been a lot more shouting and stupidity.
  • Meanwhile here in deepest Leaverstan the final piece of public squalor fell into place yesterday on the way up to church. We now have public street begging. We now have the complete set of behaviours associated with urban poverty in a town of 25K people in a rural location.

    In the Anglican liturgy the preamble to the Nine Lessons and Carols service is beautiful and a passage focuses on poverty. It was quite haunting in the context. Then the sermon was quite a sophisticated meditation on food and plenty coupled with an appeal for help with our newish feeding project. 2018 was the year our Foodbank ' buckled ' and just isn't enough anymore.

    The food is just a symptom however. It's a wide and deep social collapse linked to addiction, mental health and brutal public service cuts. The juxtaposition with the Westminster political crisis haunts me.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,013
    edited December 2018

    Oh God. I've been out all day doing voluntary work and xmas shopping.

    can someone post a short summary of what the actual fuck is going on?

    Thanks.

    May and Corbyn are on round 72 of "I'm the most politically incompetent leader" contest.
  • IanB2 said:

    Brexit is awesome.

    Best thing this country has ever done.

    We did it?
    We did as a nation.

    It is awesome as it means we end up rejoining as full blown members of the EU.

    We're going to take our rightful place at the heart of Europe and we owe it to Leavers and the ERG in particular.
    Ah, our delusional snowflake.
  • kle4 said:

    Oh God. I've been out all day doing voluntary work and xmas shopping.

    can someone post a short summary of what the actual fuck is going on?

    Thanks.

    Parliament is engaging in procedural arguments in order to put off making decisions.

    Only there's been a lot more shouting and stupidity.
    Thanks. Sounds about right for 2018.
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    Corbyn :lol:
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,400

    Oh God. I've been out all day doing voluntary work and xmas shopping.

    can someone post a short summary of what the actual fuck is going on?

    Thanks.

    May and Corbyn are on round 72 of "I'm the most politically incompetent leader" contest.
    Any chance of a tie breaker?
  • Apparently the first date Corbyn or the opposition can bring forward their vnoc on TM is the third week of January after the MV

    The DUP have said tonight they will not do anything against the government until the MV, so Corbyn and labour can either lodge a vonc against the government now and lose, or end up a laughing stock
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Apparently the first date Corbyn or the opposition can bring forward their vnoc on TM is the third week of January after the MV

    The DUP have said tonight they will not do anything against the government until the MV, so Corbyn and labour can either lodge a vonc against the government now and lose, or end up a laughing stock

    Two votes?
  • Brexit is awesome.

    Best thing this country has ever done.

    Saturday night's PB discussion of the 80s converted me to this argument. If you take Section 28 as an example of an 80s culture war the only way the Tories could ever atone was decades later pushing through Gay Marriage. I think ( most ) Brexiters are making the same mistake. They are insisting on winning in such a brutal, unpleasent, stigmatising and divisive manner the next generation will insist on a hegemonic counter revolution. The North remembers.
  • Jonathan said:

    Apparently the first date Corbyn or the opposition can bring forward their vnoc on TM is the third week of January after the MV

    The DUP have said tonight they will not do anything against the government until the MV, so Corbyn and labour can either lodge a vonc against the government now and lose, or end up a laughing stock

    Two votes?
    Even more of a laughing stock
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    Apparently the first date Corbyn or the opposition can bring forward their vnoc on TM is the third week of January after the MV

    The DUP have said tonight they will not do anything against the government until the MV, so Corbyn and labour can either lodge a vonc against the government now and lose, or end up a laughing stock

    Two votes?
    Even more of a laughing stock
    Why?

    Do one, fail.
    Adopted people’s vote position.
    Amend MV.

    If that fails, second VONC.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    Brexit is awesome.

    Best thing this country has ever done.

    Saturday night's PB discussion of the 80s converted me to this argument. If you take Section 28 as an example of an 80s culture war the only way the Tories could ever atone was decades later pushing through Gay Marriage. I think ( most ) Brexiters are making the same mistake. They are insisting on winning in such a brutal, unpleasent, stigmatising and divisive manner the next generation will insist on a hegemonic counter revolution. The North remembers.
    Ruth Davidson will be the Prime Minister (of Scotland) who joins the Euro. :)
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,401

    Jonathan said:

    Apparently the first date Corbyn or the opposition can bring forward their vnoc on TM is the third week of January after the MV

    The DUP have said tonight they will not do anything against the government until the MV, so Corbyn and labour can either lodge a vonc against the government now and lose, or end up a laughing stock

    Two votes?
    Even more of a laughing stock
    The 117 now rallying to the cause of their wonderful Leader are the only laughing stock I can see.

    Night all.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    Jonathan said:


    Adopted people’s vote position.


    ....and that's where Corbyn doesn't want to go.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited December 2018
    Andrew said:

    Jonathan said:


    Adopted people’s vote position.


    ....and that's where Corbyn doesn't want to go.
    He now has the choice. GE not available.
  • Re the debate in the HOC - the gentler questions from ERG and DUP to TM, JRM pledge of support to TM in the HOC, Steve Baker pledging support tonight with the DUP does seem to be a move in the mood music

    Early signs maybe of movement to the deal, but who knows
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited December 2018

    Meanwhile here in deepest Leaverstan the final piece of public squalor fell into place yesterday on the way up to church. We now have public street begging. We now have the complete set of behaviours associated with urban poverty in a town of 25K people in a rural location.

    In the Anglican liturgy the preamble to the Nine Lessons and Carols service is beautiful and a passage focuses on poverty. It was quite haunting in the context. Then the sermon was quite a sophisticated meditation on food and plenty coupled with an appeal for help with our newish feeding project. 2018 was the year our Foodbank ' buckled ' and just isn't enough anymore.

    The food is just a symptom however. It's a wide and deep social collapse linked to addiction, mental health and brutal public service cuts. The juxtaposition with the Westminster political crisis haunts me.

    Was astonished by the homelessness in the West End this weekend. Huge numbers sleeping in Charing Cross Tube station - I counted about 20 sets of sleeping bags, and "camps", often of couples. Never seen anything like it since the '80s.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Thank gawd for Nicola Sturgeon.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Re the debate in the HOC - the gentler questions from ERG and DUP to TM, JRM pledge of support to TM in the HOC, Steve Baker pledging support tonight with the DUP does seem to be a move in the mood music

    Early signs maybe of movement to the deal, but who knows

    Not again
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    IanB2 said:

    Clever, but sadly academic as the government isn't giving the Labour motion any time and the other parties don't have right to time for a VONC
    Hasn't Corbyn said if the government don't give his confidence motion time tomorrow he'll switch to a VoNC in the government?
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,547
    Jonathan said:

    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    tyson said:

    kle4 said:

    chloe said:

    I wonder if Corbyn will now move a formal VONC in the government. I fail to see though how this resolves the Brexit conundrum. I wish the MV had happened last week and if it had not passed now MPs were working to find a solution that honours the referendum and protects jobs and the economy.

    Indeed. One of May's more indefensible decisions.
    It's not indefensible if she plays a waiting game and gets her deal through...it would be seen as political genius....
    Blackmail is not genius.
    It's not blackmail to push your view and use every political tool you have to get people to support that view. The genius would be in getting it through despite so much opposition at the start, the method would not make it less genius, just less honourable, scrupulous and praiseworthy.
    Taking the country to the brink as a device to get your way and not compromise is blackmail.
    I respectfully disagree. It's reckless, it's possibly very selfish, and it may even be unprincipled, but MPs have a way to force her out, they are under no obligation to do as she wants, but nor is she under an obligation to give them what they want. And them crying about the PM not doing what they want does not make it blackmail. Being pressured does not make it blackmail. They have choices, they just don't like the ones she is presenting them.

    Nor do I for that matter. But being presented choices you don't like is not blackmail.
    Respect right back at you. But you are wrong. The PMs job it to lead not coerce. She had a vote but ran away. She does not have the votes, putting people under duress is blackmail. Which will either fail and exhaust better alternatives or introduce bitterness and illegitimacy into the outcome. I thought she was better than that, I was wrong.
    And all she will achieve is to make MPs angrier and even less likely to back the deal.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Labour aren't limited to one VONC. One on the last day of term, another one immediately after the MV.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    Oh God. I've been out all day doing voluntary work and xmas shopping.

    can someone post a short summary of what the actual fuck is going on?

    Thanks.

    You know how nature abhors a vacuum? They've given us Parliament as the next best thing.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,083

    IanB2 said:

    Clever, but sadly academic as the government isn't giving the Labour motion any time and the other parties don't have right to time for a VONC
    Hasn't Corbyn said if the government don't give his confidence motion time tomorrow he'll switch to a VoNC in the government?
    Maybe it's a cunning plan to force people to stay until Thursday, and then spin the debate out with all the MPs looking at their watches?,
  • Brexit is awesome.

    Best thing this country has ever done.

    Saturday night's PB discussion of the 80s converted me to this argument. If you take Section 28 as an example of an 80s culture war the only way the Tories could ever atone was decades later pushing through Gay Marriage. I think ( most ) Brexiters are making the same mistake. They are insisting on winning in such a brutal, unpleasent, stigmatising and divisive manner the next generation will insist on a hegemonic counter revolution. The North remembers.
    I think that seriously misreads the gay debate. The Tories didn't push through Gay marriage to atone for anything. They pushed it through because the world had changed - as had much of the membership of the Tory back benches. They had finally caught up with what the vast majority of the public already thought in the 80s and 90s.

    If you think the events of the last couple of years are going to make people look more favourably on the EU then you are very much mistaken. Even if we do end up Remaining it will still be with huge reluctance and resentment and we can be sure the EU will do nothing to change that. Indeed based on past performance they can be almost guaranteed to stoke up even more resentment with their response to Brexit - whether it succeeds or not.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069

    Oh God. I've been out all day doing voluntary work and xmas shopping.

    can someone post a short summary of what the actual fuck is going on?

    Thanks.

    May and Corbyn are on round 72 of "I'm the most politically incompetent leader" contest.
    Yep. They are having a stupidity contest and it is going down to the wire.
  • IanB2 said:

    Clever, but sadly academic as the government isn't giving the Labour motion any time and the other parties don't have right to time for a VONC
    Hasn't Corbyn said if the government don't give his confidence motion time tomorrow he'll switch to a VoNC in the government?
    It was hinted but now the ERG and DUP are fully on board and HMG is inviting him to take them on let us see how he deals with it
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    IanB2 said:

    Clever, but sadly academic as the government isn't giving the Labour motion any time and the other parties don't have right to time for a VONC
    Hasn't Corbyn said if the government don't give his confidence motion time tomorrow he'll switch to a VoNC in the government?
    Corbyn has said all sorts of things today. Labour looking even less coherent than normal, which is mindboggling.

    Our Westminster system is essentially two bags of shit, each propping the other up.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,400

    Thank gawd for Nicola Sturgeon.

    At least it is always very clear what she wants, and that everything she does is in service to that one aim.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,083
    edited December 2018

    Brexit is awesome.

    Best thing this country has ever done.

    Saturday night's PB discussion of the 80s converted me to this argument. If you take Section 28 as an example of an 80s culture war the only way the Tories could ever atone was decades later pushing through Gay Marriage. I think ( most ) Brexiters are making the same mistake. They are insisting on winning in such a brutal, unpleasent, stigmatising and divisive manner the next generation will insist on a hegemonic counter revolution. The North remembers.
    I think that seriously misreads the gay debate. The Tories didn't push through Gay marriage to atone for anything. They pushed it through because the world had changed - as had much of the membership of the Tory back benches. They had finally caught up with what the vast majority of the public already thought in the 80s and 90s.

    If you think the events of the last couple of years are going to make people look more favourably on the EU then you are very much mistaken. Even if we do end up Remaining it will still be with huge reluctance and resentment and we can be sure the EU will do nothing to change that. Indeed based on past performance they can be almost guaranteed to stoke up even more resentment with their response to Brexit - whether it succeeds or not.
    Err...the LibDem minister wanted to do it and May, to her credit but also aware of the risk of LibDems running it as their own political initiative, gave it her support. Tories were reacting not acting.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,547

    Meanwhile here in deepest Leaverstan the final piece of public squalor fell into place yesterday on the way up to church. We now have public street begging. We now have the complete set of behaviours associated with urban poverty in a town of 25K people in a rural location.

    In the Anglican liturgy the preamble to the Nine Lessons and Carols service is beautiful and a passage focuses on poverty. It was quite haunting in the context. Then the sermon was quite a sophisticated meditation on food and plenty coupled with an appeal for help with our newish feeding project. 2018 was the year our Foodbank ' buckled ' and just isn't enough anymore.

    The food is just a symptom however. It's a wide and deep social collapse linked to addiction, mental health and brutal public service cuts. The juxtaposition with the Westminster political crisis haunts me.

    I visited a cousin in a county town in the South West recently. Walking to her house from the station I was shocked at the shabbiness of the shops, the potholes in the road and the number of beggars who accosted me in the High street. And this town is normally considered prosperous and secure.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,400

    IanB2 said:

    Clever, but sadly academic as the government isn't giving the Labour motion any time and the other parties don't have right to time for a VONC
    Hasn't Corbyn said if the government don't give his confidence motion time tomorrow he'll switch to a VoNC in the government?
    In which case why bother with this version first?
  • Donny43Donny43 Posts: 634

    Oh God. I've been out all day doing voluntary work and xmas shopping.

    can someone post a short summary of what the actual fuck is going on?

    Thanks.

    https://twitter.com/JoshHalliday/status/1074775401598210048
  • Labour aren't limited to one VONC. One on the last day of term, another one immediately after the MV.

    Trouble is this one just made them look stupid and incompetent. They could have called a full VoNC in the Government today. If they lost then they could call another one whenever they liked. This idiocy about a VoNC in the PM just made it look like they didn't know what they were doing.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,400
    Andrew said:

    Jonathan said:


    Adopted people’s vote position.


    ....and that's where Corbyn doesn't want to go.
    May and Corbyn are both likely being bounced into positions they don't particularly want. They are not leaders, and ultimately they cannot control their parties well enough.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Clever, but sadly academic as the government isn't giving the Labour motion any time and the other parties don't have right to time for a VONC
    Hasn't Corbyn said if the government don't give his confidence motion time tomorrow he'll switch to a VoNC in the government?
    In which case why bother with this version first?
    Because Labour don't actually want to bring down the government because then they'll have to do Brexit.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,400
    edited December 2018

    Meanwhile here in deepest Leaverstan the final piece of public squalor fell into place yesterday on the way up to church. We now have public street begging. We now have the complete set of behaviours associated with urban poverty in a town of 25K people in a rural location.

    In the Anglican liturgy the preamble to the Nine Lessons and Carols service is beautiful and a passage focuses on poverty. It was quite haunting in the context. Then the sermon was quite a sophisticated meditation on food and plenty coupled with an appeal for help with our newish feeding project. 2018 was the year our Foodbank ' buckled ' and just isn't enough anymore.

    The food is just a symptom however. It's a wide and deep social collapse linked to addiction, mental health and brutal public service cuts. The juxtaposition with the Westminster political crisis haunts me.

    I visited a cousin in a county town in the South West recently. Walking to her house from the station I was shocked at the shabbiness of the shops, the potholes in the road and the number of beggars who accosted me in the High street. And this town is normally considered prosperous and secure.
    I almost thought it was near to me for a moment there until your last sentence :)
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    Labour aren't limited to one VONC. One on the last day of term, another one immediately after the MV.

    Trouble is this one just made them look stupid and incompetent. They could have called a full VoNC in the Government today. If they lost then they could call another one whenever they liked. This idiocy about a VoNC in the PM just made it look like they didn't know what they were doing.
    Fortunately I think the SNP might have ridden in to save Corbyn's bacon with their amendment.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Clever, but sadly academic as the government isn't giving the Labour motion any time and the other parties don't have right to time for a VONC
    Hasn't Corbyn said if the government don't give his confidence motion time tomorrow he'll switch to a VoNC in the government?
    In which case why bother with this version first?
    Fair point. Tbh, it's quite hard to work our who between May and Corbyn is the most inept when it comes to political manoeuvering.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,911

    Brexit is awesome.

    Best thing this country has ever done.

    Saturday night's PB discussion of the 80s converted me to this argument. If you take Section 28 as an example of an 80s culture war the only way the Tories could ever atone was decades later pushing through Gay Marriage. I think ( most ) Brexiters are making the same mistake. They are insisting on winning in such a brutal, unpleasent, stigmatising and divisive manner the next generation will insist on a hegemonic counter revolution. The North remembers.
    I think that seriously misreads the gay debate. The Tories didn't push through Gay marriage to atone for anything. They pushed it through because the world had changed - as had much of the membership of the Tory back benches. They had finally caught up with what the vast majority of the public already thought in the 80s and 90s.

    If you think the events of the last couple of years are going to make people look more favourably on the EU then you are very much mistaken. Even if we do end up Remaining it will still be with huge reluctance and resentment and we can be sure the EU will do nothing to change that. Indeed based on past performance they can be almost guaranteed to stoke up even more resentment with their response to Brexit - whether it succeeds or not.
    I suspect the legalisation of marijuana will be the next big thing.

    Something that should be supported by any sane person, the Americans and the Canadians have already done it.

    I personally believe there will be an enormous dividend for the first major party to come out in favour of legalisation, if the Tories had any sense they would put it in the next manifesto. Unfortunately we seem to be ruled by cretins who are more interested in regulating people having a hand shandy rather than taxing and regulating a drug that is de facto legal on the streets anyway.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,400

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Clever, but sadly academic as the government isn't giving the Labour motion any time and the other parties don't have right to time for a VONC
    Hasn't Corbyn said if the government don't give his confidence motion time tomorrow he'll switch to a VoNC in the government?
    In which case why bother with this version first?
    Because Labour don't actually want to bring down the government because then they'll have to do Brexit.
    Yes, but if the gambit fails and they have to do a proper vote anyway they just look silly for not doing it in the first place.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    Labour aren't limited to one VONC. One on the last day of term, another one immediately after the MV.

    Trouble is this one just made them look stupid and incompetent. They could have called a full VoNC in the Government today. If they lost then they could call another one whenever they liked. This idiocy about a VoNC in the PM just made it look like they didn't know what they were doing.
    At the moment they would lose a VoNC in the Government. By targeting the PM they could in theory have a few ERG members having strategic emergency hospital appointments to be unavoidable detained away from Parliament. And they couldn't do the same for a full VoNC...

    So you can see the plan and see why it doesn't work...
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,009

    IanB2 said:

    Clever, but sadly academic as the government isn't giving the Labour motion any time and the other parties don't have right to time for a VONC
    Hasn't Corbyn said if the government don't give his confidence motion time tomorrow he'll switch to a VoNC in the government?
    It was hinted but now the ERG and DUP are fully on board and HMG is inviting him to take them on let us see how he deals with it
    It's funny the way the ERG is now being viewed almost as a separate political party in coalition with the Tories.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Clever, but sadly academic as the government isn't giving the Labour motion any time and the other parties don't have right to time for a VONC
    Hasn't Corbyn said if the government don't give his confidence motion time tomorrow he'll switch to a VoNC in the government?
    In which case why bother with this version first?
    Because Labour don't actually want to bring down the government because then they'll have to do Brexit.
    Yes, but if the gambit fails and they have to do a proper vote anyway they just look silly for not doing it in the first place.
    I mean, it's Corbyn. Of course he'll look silly.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,083
    SeanT said:

    Confession Alert.

    I'm not sure if I have admitted this on here, anyway I will say it, even if it makes me look a fool (hint: it does) - because it has lessons for the future of Brexit, and also people who vote Corbyn, etc

    I voted Leave because I thought Remain would win. That is to say: I wrestled long and hard with my conscience, about how I should vote. I knew that, morally, I should vote Leave, even if it meant personal loss (London property prices, etc) because the democratic gain was worth it: sovereign nations are, in the end, happier nations. The UK had simply to look to its democratic offspring, Canada and Australia, to see great examples of what we should do and what we could be. I still believe that.

    Yet my mind havered; even as my heart yearned for Brexit, I knew the initial cost would be dramatic, and personal.

    On the last day I was reassured by the polls. Remain would win by a canter. I could vote with my conscience, confident in the expectation that I wouldn't have to suffer the financial consequences, as Remain would win.

    To put it bluntly: I could look myself in the eye, and my flat would still increase in value.

    Then Leave won, and I was filled with awe, hope, surprise, bewilderment and existential dread, all at the same time.

    I wonder how many other voters did the same as me. Boris Johnson is one, I suspect: in his heart he genuinely wanted Leave, in his head he thought Remain would win anyway, and he would personally benefit.

    My brother voted Leave as a protest, not expecting them to win, and was shocked when it did. Brexit has already caused him no end of business difficulties, many of which were entirely predictable.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,400
    kyf_100 said:

    Brexit is awesome.

    Best thing this country has ever done.

    Saturday night's PB discussion of the 80s converted me to this argument. If you take Section 28 as an example of an 80s culture war the only way the Tories could ever atone was decades later pushing through Gay Marriage. I think ( most ) Brexiters are making the same mistake. They are insisting on winning in such a brutal, unpleasent, stigmatising and divisive manner the next generation will insist on a hegemonic counter revolution. The North remembers.
    I think that seriously misreads the gay debate. The Tories didn't push through Gay marriage to atone for anything. They pushed it through because the world had changed - as had much of the membership of the Tory back benches. They had finally caught up with what the vast majority of the public already thought in the 80s and 90s.

    If you think the events of the last couple of years are going to make people look more favourably on the EU then you are very much mistaken. Even if we do end up Remaining it will still be with huge reluctance and resentment and we can be sure the EU will do nothing to change that. Indeed based on past performance they can be almost guaranteed to stoke up even more resentment with their response to Brexit - whether it succeeds or not.
    I suspect the legalisation of marijuana will be the next big thing.

    Something that should be supported by any sane person, the Americans and the Canadians have already done it.

    I personally believe there will be an enormous dividend for the first major party to come out in favour of legalisation, if the Tories had any sense they would put it in the next manifesto. Unfortunately we seem to be ruled by cretins who are more interested in regulating people having a hand shandy rather than taxing and regulating a drug that is de facto legal on the streets anyway.
    The LDs already came out in favour of legalisation, though I suppose they are hardly a major party anymore (I assume they don't qualify as such for PPBs and such). Labour will definitely get their first I think.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Oh God. I've been out all day doing voluntary work and xmas shopping.

    can someone post a short summary of what the actual fuck is going on?

    Thanks.

    https://twitter.com/NewsInBrie/status/1074786042081918976
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,083
    eek said:

    Labour aren't limited to one VONC. One on the last day of term, another one immediately after the MV.

    Trouble is this one just made them look stupid and incompetent. They could have called a full VoNC in the Government today. If they lost then they could call another one whenever they liked. This idiocy about a VoNC in the PM just made it look like they didn't know what they were doing.
    At the moment they would lose a VoNC in the Government. By targeting the PM they could in theory have a few ERG members having strategic emergency hospital appointments to be unavoidable detained away from Parliament. And they couldn't do the same for a full VoNC...

    So you can see the plan and see why it doesn't work...
    Nah, planning to cause problems for the opposition is thinking too deep. Everything is driven by internal politics nowadays, and Corbyn is simply frightened of his Conference motion (especially with a fifty year track record of insisting that Conference is sovereign).
  • asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,276

    Meanwhile here in deepest Leaverstan the final piece of public squalor fell into place yesterday on the way up to church. We now have public street begging. We now have the complete set of behaviours associated with urban poverty in a town of 25K people in a rural location.

    In the Anglican liturgy the preamble to the Nine Lessons and Carols service is beautiful and a passage focuses on poverty. It was quite haunting in the context. Then the sermon was quite a sophisticated meditation on food and plenty coupled with an appeal for help with our newish feeding project. 2018 was the year our Foodbank ' buckled ' and just isn't enough anymore.

    The food is just a symptom however. It's a wide and deep social collapse linked to addiction, mental health and brutal public service cuts. The juxtaposition with the Westminster political crisis haunts me.

    I visited a cousin in a county town in the South West recently. Walking to her house from the station I was shocked at the shabbiness of the shops, the potholes in the road and the number of beggars who accosted me in the High street. And this town is normally considered prosperous and secure.
    I observed the same; rural areas are clearly struggling.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    eek said:

    Labour aren't limited to one VONC. One on the last day of term, another one immediately after the MV.

    Trouble is this one just made them look stupid and incompetent. They could have called a full VoNC in the Government today. If they lost then they could call another one whenever they liked. This idiocy about a VoNC in the PM just made it look like they didn't know what they were doing.
    At the moment they would lose a VoNC in the Government. By targeting the PM they could in theory have a few ERG members having strategic emergency hospital appointments to be unavoidable detained away from Parliament. And they couldn't do the same for a full VoNC...

    So you can see the plan and see why it doesn't work...
    There are literally zero exemptions for not voting in a VONC.

    The whips will wheel you in on a gurney if they have to.
  • kyf_100 said:

    Brexit is awesome.

    Best thing this country has ever done.

    Saturday night's PB discussion of the 80s converted me to this argument. If you take Section 28 as an example of an 80s culture war the only way the Tories could ever atone was decades later pushing through Gay Marriage. I think ( most ) Brexiters are making the same mistake. They are insisting on winning in such a brutal, unpleasent, stigmatising and divisive manner the next generation will insist on a hegemonic counter revolution. The North remembers.
    I think that seriously misreads the gay debate. The Tories didn't push through Gay marriage to atone for anything. They pushed it through because the world had changed - as had much of the membership of the Tory back benches. They had finally caught up with what the vast majority of the public already thought in the 80s and 90s.

    If you think the events of the last couple of years are going to make people look more favourably on the EU then you are very much mistaken. Even if we do end up Remaining it will still be with huge reluctance and resentment and we can be sure the EU will do nothing to change that. Indeed based on past performance they can be almost guaranteed to stoke up even more resentment with their response to Brexit - whether it succeeds or not.
    I suspect the legalisation of marijuana will be the next big thing.

    Something that should be supported by any sane person, the Americans and the Canadians have already done it.

    I personally believe there will be an enormous dividend for the first major party to come out in favour of legalisation, if the Tories had any sense they would put it in the next manifesto. Unfortunately we seem to be ruled by cretins who are more interested in regulating people having a hand shandy rather than taxing and regulating a drug that is de facto legal on the streets anyway.
    I am sure labour are going to, i can see them going for the “medical” usage fudge that places like California had for years.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    SeanT said:


    I wonder how many other voters did the same as me. Boris Johnson is one, I suspect: in his heart he genuinely wanted Leave, in his head he thought Remain would win anyway, and he would personally benefit.

    I think he genuinely wanted Remain, so he could play the disgruntled leaver keeping the flame alive.

    If the SNP had won Indyref, Nicola Sturgeon wouldn't even be a footnote.

    Then he won, and now BoZo is completely screwed. Fortunately.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Clever, but sadly academic as the government isn't giving the Labour motion any time and the other parties don't have right to time for a VONC
    Hasn't Corbyn said if the government don't give his confidence motion time tomorrow he'll switch to a VoNC in the government?
    In which case why bother with this version first?
    Because Labour don't actually want to bring down the government because then they'll have to do Brexit.
    Yes, but if the gambit fails and they have to do a proper vote anyway they just look silly for not doing it in the first place.
    I mean, it's Corbyn. Of course he'll look silly.
    Glass houses.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited December 2018
    SeanT said:

    Meanwhile here in deepest Leaverstan the final piece of public squalor fell into place yesterday on the way up to church. We now have public street begging. We now have the complete set of behaviours associated with urban poverty in a town of 25K people in a rural location.

    In the Anglican liturgy the preamble to the Nine Lessons and Carols service is beautiful and a passage focuses on poverty. It was quite haunting in the context. Then the sermon was quite a sophisticated meditation on food and plenty coupled with an appeal for help with our newish feeding project. 2018 was the year our Foodbank ' buckled ' and just isn't enough anymore.

    The food is just a symptom however. It's a wide and deep social collapse linked to addiction, mental health and brutal public service cuts. The juxtaposition with the Westminster political crisis haunts me.

    Was astonished by the homelessness in the West End this weekend. Huge numbers sleeping in Charing Cross Tube station - I counted about 20 sets of sleeping bags, and "camps", often of couples. Never seen anything like it since the '80s.
    The bulk of homelessness in London is because of migration from Eastern Europe. Sad, but true.

    https://metro.co.uk/2016/03/15/most-of-the-homeless-people-in-london-are-foreign-government-report-finds-5753622/

    It's not (in London) a symptom of Brexit, it's a CAUSE of Brexit.
    These seemed to be largely white british people from outside the centre, judging by the accents that I did hear. The main exit to trafalgar to square had row after row of them in their sleeping bags.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,400
    If the advice actually helps them this time perhaps they would be best advised to just reveal it. Though surely extending A50 would be a matter for the ECJ, in which case our view could just be wrong again anyway.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,083

    SeanT said:

    Meanwhile here in deepest Leaverstan the final piece of public squalor fell into place yesterday on the way up to church. We now have public street begging. We now have the complete set of behaviours associated with urban poverty in a town of 25K people in a rural location.

    In the Anglican liturgy the preamble to the Nine Lessons and Carols service is beautiful and a passage focuses on poverty. It was quite haunting in the context. Then the sermon was quite a sophisticated meditation on food and plenty coupled with an appeal for help with our newish feeding project. 2018 was the year our Foodbank ' buckled ' and just isn't enough anymore.

    The food is just a symptom however. It's a wide and deep social collapse linked to addiction, mental health and brutal public service cuts. The juxtaposition with the Westminster political crisis haunts me.

    Was astonished by the homelessness in the West End this weekend. Huge numbers sleeping in Charing Cross Tube station - I counted about 20 sets of sleeping bags, and "camps", often of couples. Never seen anything like it since the '80s.
    The bulk of homelessness in London is because of migration from Eastern Europe. Sad, but true.

    https://metro.co.uk/2016/03/15/most-of-the-homeless-people-in-london-are-foreign-government-report-finds-5753622/

    It's not (in London) a symptom of Brexit, it's a CAUSE of Brexit.
    These seemed to be largely white british people from outside the centre, judging by their accents.
    The homeless people I have spoken to in London haven't been East European. An above average proportion of them have been Scottish or Irish,
    .
  • IanB2 said:

    Brexit is awesome.

    Best thing this country has ever done.

    Saturday night's PB discussion of the 80s converted me to this argument. If you take Section 28 as an example of an 80s culture war the only way the Tories could ever atone was decades later pushing through Gay Marriage. I think ( most ) Brexiters are making the same mistake. They are insisting on winning in such a brutal, unpleasent, stigmatising and divisive manner the next generation will insist on a hegemonic counter revolution. The North remembers.
    I think that seriously misreads the gay debate. The Tories didn't push through Gay marriage to atone for anything. They pushed it through because the world had changed - as had much of the membership of the Tory back benches. They had finally caught up with what the vast majority of the public already thought in the 80s and 90s.

    If you think the events of the last couple of years are going to make people look more favourably on the EU then you are very much mistaken. Even if we do end up Remaining it will still be with huge reluctance and resentment and we can be sure the EU will do nothing to change that. Indeed based on past performance they can be almost guaranteed to stoke up even more resentment with their response to Brexit - whether it succeeds or not.
    Err...the LibDem minister wanted to do it and May, to her credit but also aware of the risk of LibDems running it as their own political initiative, gave it her support. Tories were reacting not acting.
    There is no evidence for that. It happened to be a Lib Dem because she was the Minister for Equalities.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,400
    Chris said:

    IanB2 said:

    Clever, but sadly academic as the government isn't giving the Labour motion any time and the other parties don't have right to time for a VONC
    Hasn't Corbyn said if the government don't give his confidence motion time tomorrow he'll switch to a VoNC in the government?
    It was hinted but now the ERG and DUP are fully on board and HMG is inviting him to take them on let us see how he deals with it
    It's funny the way the ERG is now being viewed almost as a separate political party in coalition with the Tories.
    If the shoe fits...
  • Thank gawd for Nicola Sturgeon.

    I love Nicola as she sums our catastrophe up so perfectly. The only front rank credible leader in the country has the sole aim of destroying the country.
This discussion has been closed.