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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Survation poll of CON Councillors finds Javid leading over Joh

SystemSystem Posts: 6,666
edited December 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Survation poll of CON Councillors finds Javid leading over Johnson as first choice for TMay’s successor

You can see fuller details from the poll in this Survation video.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • RobDRobD Posts: 37,522
    1
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    SeanT said:

    Where's my post gone?

    I replied to it. Both eaten, I think.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    edited December 2018
    .
  • Peterborough is bad news for europhiles. Until the result is known it'll it freeze in place Jezz's ' Red Brexit ' strategy. If Labour win it will be validation of it. If Labour lose ( a mid term by-election to an 8 year old government ) it will be framed as metropolitan Labour being out of touch with ' real ' Britain.

    Europhiles least worst hope is a mildly europhile Labour candidate who wins big after a campaign focused on everything except Brexit. Peterbourgh can never be a good result for Remainers but the killing field could be levelled.

    But the bottom line is Theresea May got lucky today. Her strategy is to burn time and until Peterborough is held the Corbyn inner circle will be happy to help her do it.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 25,173
    I said some months back, a Johnson v Javid vote of the membership would be the best way forward.

    I expect Javid would win, but the mmbers would have had a chance to consider - and reject - Boris. That would be a good safety valve for the party.

    Of course, Javid might be a dud on the hustings.......
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,140
    SeanT said:

    (who STILL haven't elected a woman leader, let alone a female PM)

    As the current leader is still here from when the complaint was last made I am not sure that is too surprising. Gender reassignment surgery does seem like a bit of an extreme shout. Labour's next leader is very likely to be a woman but that isn't going to happen until there is a vacancy...

    So for example don't be surprised if by next year Labour STILL haven't elected a woman leader, it is actually not possible for Labour to do so until a vacancy appears.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 25,173


    SeanT said:

    (who STILL haven't elected a woman leader, let alone a female PM)

    As the current leader is still here from when the complaint was last made I am not sure that is too surprising. Gender reassignment surgery does seem like a bit of an extreme shout. Labour's next leader is very likely to be a woman but that isn't going to happen until there is a vacancy...

    So for example don't be surprised if by next year Labour STILL haven't elected a woman leader, it is actually not possible for Labour to do so until a vacancy appears.

    The gender re-assignment comes from Labour. They don't count Thatcher as a woman. So Labour are therefore only a couple of years behind the Tories.....
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 11,880
    I did something amazing tonight. I landed at Gatwick.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 37,522
    Jonathan said:

    I did something amazing tonight. I landed at Gatwick.

    What happened to the pilot?
  • Yellow_SubmarineYellow_Submarine Posts: 167
    edited December 2018
    SeanT said:

    I'd go for Javid. He would, potentially, wallop Corbyn. He would also, yet again, prove that when it comes to reality rather than theory, the Tories are way more progressive than Labour (who STILL haven't elected a woman leader, let alone a female PM)

    My paradoxical worry is that, in his gratitude, he would be too rightwing and anti-migrant.

    Yes, that's why he's unfit to be PM. We've seen the psychological disaster of making ex Remainer May a Brexit PM. " Citizens of Nowhere " and we've seen very recently how Javid felt it was necessery to use explicitly racist and islamophobic tropes around so called ' grooming gangs '. We can't have a second PM in sucession who'll warp British politics in an attempt to apologise for who they are.
  • we've seen very recently how Javid felt it was necessery to use explicitly racist and islamophobic tropes around so called ' grooming gangs '. We can't have a second PM in sucession who'll warp British politics in an attempt to apologise for who they are.

    I remember the days when I naively thought Rotherham would be the end of the road for the deniers.

  • SeanT said:

    I'd go for Javid. He would, potentially, wallop Corbyn. He would also, yet again, prove that when it comes to reality rather than theory, the Tories are way more progressive than Labour (who STILL haven't elected a woman leader, let alone a female PM)

    My paradoxical worry is that, in his gratitude, he would be too rightwing and anti-migrant.

    He had a decent write up in this week's Spectator. Opportunity, meritocracy, reforming education massively (far more techn training and apprenticeships), huge house building programme (blocked by May, allegedly), ladders for all etc etc.

    Glad I'm green.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 25,173
    Jonathan said:

    I did something amazing tonight. I landed at Gatwick.

    Don't drop your guard until you are at least 20 miles from Crawley......
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,140


    SeanT said:

    (who STILL haven't elected a woman leader, let alone a female PM)

    As the current leader is still here from when the complaint was last made I am not sure that is too surprising. Gender reassignment surgery does seem like a bit of an extreme shout. Labour's next leader is very likely to be a woman but that isn't going to happen until there is a vacancy...

    So for example don't be surprised if by next year Labour STILL haven't elected a woman leader, it is actually not possible for Labour to do so until a vacancy appears.

    The gender re-assignment comes from Labour. They don't count Thatcher as a woman. So Labour are therefore only a couple of years behind the Tories.....
    Whatever you think of her politics she must have been at the very least supremely talented at politics to rise to the top in what was then incredibly male dominated. I understand she had a less wealthy background than a lot of other PMs as well. If you put aside the politics those two achievements are worthy of praise, being PM for such a long time as well is no mean feat.
  • SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    I'd go for Javid. He would, potentially, wallop Corbyn. He would also, yet again, prove that when it comes to reality rather than theory, the Tories are way more progressive than Labour (who STILL haven't elected a woman leader, let alone a female PM)

    My paradoxical worry is that, in his gratitude, he would be too rightwing and anti-migrant.

    Yes, that's why he's unfit to be PM. We've seen the psychological disaster of making ex Remainer May a Brexit PM. " Citizens of Nowhere " and we seen very recently how Javid felt it was necessery to use explicitly racist and islamophobic tropes around so called ' grooming gangs '. We can't have a second PM in sucession who'll warp British politics in an attempt to apologise for who they are.
    Clearly, I agree with Javid completely about Pakistani-Muslim grooming gangs. That's one of the reasons I want him to win. He is the Nixon who went to China. Only a Muslim Tory leader will have the guts (and the freedom) to tackle this grotesque phenomenon, and eliminate it. Deport, execute, whatever, just do it. A white leader will never have the bravery, for fear of being branded.

    Javid will go after this, and he will go after FGM, he will go after it with such passion one wonders if there will be a Muslim minority community in the UK afterwards? Who knows. But it will be a LOT smaller. That is a RESULT. Do it. He will garner lots of hard right votes. Good.

    My concern is that he will tackle all migration problems with the same vigour. Which is ludicrous.
    I partially (but only partially) agree.

    He will tackle grotesque abuses like grooming gangs, as should anyone decent. The idea that 'grooming gangs' is an "explicitly racist and Islamophobic trope" is absurd.

    But the Muslim minority community is not the same as gangs or FGM any more than the Catholic community are all paedophiles. In fact the paedophilia within the Catholic Church was more institutional than the abuses here are.

    Regardless of race, religion or any other creed abuses are wrong and should be called out.
  • SeanT said:

    we've seen very recently how Javid felt it was necessery to use explicitly racist and islamophobic tropes around so called ' grooming gangs '. We can't have a second PM in sucession who'll warp British politics in an attempt to apologise for who they are.

    I remember the days when I naively thought Rotherham would be the end of the road for the deniers.

    They are vile. People like Yellow Submarine are like Old Nazis. In Bolivian whisky bars. They seem genial, but give them a couple of shots, and eventually it shows. The hatred and the bitterness, and the deep, deep denial and bigotry.

    Disgusting creeps.
    Given your track record of flip flopping on huge culture war issues ( Iraq, Brexit ) in year 3 of Javid's fantasy pogrom you'll be setting up your own solidarity Madrassa in Rochdale.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 11,880

    Jonathan said:

    I did something amazing tonight. I landed at Gatwick.

    Don't drop your guard until you are at least 20 miles from Crawley......
    I was one of the last flights in. Some poor souls ended up in Manchester and Brest.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,140
    edited December 2018
    ...
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,140
    Isn't there a potential flaw in Saajid winning over the votes of the hard right by reenacting the early third reich's treatment of Jews... A reason some of the prejudiced types wouldn't like the man proposing the policy despite liking the policy.

    Not everyone has the vision to empower those closest to their perceived enemy to assist in trying to wipe them out.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 9,061
    SeanT said:


    SeanT said:

    (who STILL haven't elected a woman leader, let alone a female PM)

    As the current leader is still here from when the complaint was last made I am not sure that is too surprising. Gender reassignment surgery does seem like a bit of an extreme shout. Labour's next leader is very likely to be a woman but that isn't going to happen until there is a vacancy...

    So for example don't be surprised if by next year Labour STILL haven't elected a woman leader, it is actually not possible for Labour to do so until a vacancy appears.

    The gender re-assignment comes from Labour. They don't count Thatcher as a woman. So Labour are therefore only a couple of years behind the Tories.....
    Whatever you think of her politics she must have been at the very least supremely talented at politics to rise to the top in what was then incredibly male dominated. I understand she had a less wealthy background than a lot of other PMs as well. If you put aside the politics those two achievements are worthy of praise, being PM for such a long time as well is no mean feat.
    She also helped to invent, it is alleged, Mr Whippy ice cream. Make of that what you will. Probably a 99.
    A myth. It was invented while she was still a schoolgirl.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/reality-check/2013/apr/17/margaret-thatcher-team-mr-whippy
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 12,453



    I partially (but only partially) agree.

    He will tackle grotesque abuses like grooming gangs, as should anyone decent. The idea that 'grooming gangs' is an "explicitly racist and Islamophobic trope" is absurd.

    But the Muslim minority community is not the same as gangs or FGM any more than the Catholic community are all paedophiles. In fact the paedophilia within the Catholic Church was more institutional than the abuses here are.

    Regardless of race, religion or any other creed abuses are wrong and should be called out.

    Exactly.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 9,061
    SeanT said:

    Foxy said:

    SeanT said:


    SeanT said:

    (who STILL haven't elected a woman leader, let alone a female PM)

    As the current leader is still here from when the complaint was last made I am not sure that is too surprising. Gender reassignment surgery does seem like a bit of an extreme shout. Labour's next leader is very likely to be a woman but that isn't going to happen until there is a vacancy...

    So for example don't be surprised if by next year Labour STILL haven't elected a woman leader, it is actually not possible for Labour to do so until a vacancy appears.

    The gender re-assignment comes from Labour. They don't count Thatcher as a woman. So Labour are therefore only a couple of years behind the Tories.....
    Whatever you think of her politics she must have been at the very least supremely talented at politics to rise to the top in what was then incredibly male dominated. I understand she had a less wealthy background than a lot of other PMs as well. If you put aside the politics those two achievements are worthy of praise, being PM for such a long time as well is no mean feat.
    She also helped to invent, it is alleged, Mr Whippy ice cream. Make of that what you will. Probably a 99.
    A myth. It was invented while she was still a schoolgirl.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/reality-check/2013/apr/17/margaret-thatcher-team-mr-whippy
    Is "alleged" too long a word for you to understand? I struggle to think how I would shorten it. I may consult my wife, who works mainly with Down's Syndrome kids.
    Just pointing out the allegation was wrong.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 2,772


    SeanT said:

    (who STILL haven't elected a woman leader, let alone a female PM)

    As the current leader is still here from when the complaint was last made I am not sure that is too surprising. Gender reassignment surgery does seem like a bit of an extreme shout. Labour's next leader is very likely to be a woman but that isn't going to happen until there is a vacancy...

    So for example don't be surprised if by next year Labour STILL haven't elected a woman leader, it is actually not possible for Labour to do so until a vacancy appears.

    Errr .... but there was a vacancy in Wales.

    Labour had a choice between

    (i) an old white guy, (ii) a woman, (ii) a BAME candidate

    It was the same old, same old.
  • SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    we've seen very recently how Javid felt it was necessery to use explicitly racist and islamophobic tropes around so called ' grooming gangs '. We can't have a second PM in sucession who'll warp British politics in an attempt to apologise for who they are.

    I remember the days when I naively thought Rotherham would be the end of the road for the deniers.

    They are vile. People like Yellow Submarine are like Old Nazis. In Bolivian whisky bars. They seem genial, but give them a couple of shots, and eventually it shows. The hatred and the bitterness, and the deep, deep denial and bigotry.

    Disgusting creeps.
    Given your track record of flip flopping on huge culture war issues ( Iraq, Brexit ) in year 3 of Javid's fantasy pogrom you'll be setting up your own solidarity Madrassa in Rochdale.
    You're literally repulsive. A rape apologist. A facilitator of racist pedophilia.
    On the contrary. Your airbrushing of victims who don't have the right abuser for your paranoid and oddly subserviant ' fall of the West ' narrative achieves everything you say you fear. Victims are invisible unless a useful stage prop in the culture war de jour. Read the excellent Jay report into Rotherham. It's eriely similar to the McPherson report on St.ephen Lawrence. While racially the polar opposite it's actually exactly the same thing. The acute power imbalance between a marginalised victim group and the public sector salatariat. It you look beneath the ' neoliberalism ' nonsense it was the same as Grenfell actually.

  • Brexit is a negotiation with the EU. The only way we can exert leverage in the negotiation of the future trade deal is to negotiate in parallel with the divorce deal.

    The WTO Deal (so called No Deal) is now the only route to enable such a parallel negotiation.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 9,061
    SeanT said:

    Foxy said:

    SeanT said:

    Foxy said:

    SeanT said:


    SeanT said:

    (who STILL haven't elected a woman leader, let alone a female PM)

    As the current leader is still here from when the complaint was last made I am not sure that is too surprising. Gender reassignment surgery does seem like a bit of an extreme shout. Labour's next leader is very likely to be a woman but that isn't going to happen until there is a vacancy...

    So for example don't be surprised if by next year Labour STILL haven't elected a woman leader, it is actually not possible for Labour to do so until a vacancy appears.

    The gender re-assignment comes from Labour. They don't count Thatcher as a woman. So Labour are therefore only a couple of years behind the Tories.....
    Whatever you think of her politics she must have been at the very least supremely talented at politics to rise to the top in what was then incredibly male dominated. I understand she had a less wealthy background than a lot of other PMs as well. If you put aside the politics those two achievements are worthy of praise, being PM for such a long time as well is no mean feat.
    She also helped to invent, it is alleged, Mr Whippy ice cream. Make of that what you will. Probably a 99.
    A myth. It was invented while she was still a schoolgirl.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/reality-check/2013/apr/17/margaret-thatcher-team-mr-whippy
    Is "alleged" too long a word for you to understand? I struggle to think how I would shorten it. I may consult my wife, who works mainly with Down's Syndrome kids.
    Just pointing out the allegation was wrong.
    Aren't you the racist doctor in Leicester who, all along, maintained that this Muslim gang-rape grooming was a myth - until it became impossible to deny?

    I believe you are. And I am right.

    Given that we are agreed you are a self-confessed Nazi, I will leave it there. Goodnight.
    Pisspoor lying about my previous comments on the subject.

    I have pledged not to discuss the issue with you here to the moderators, and will respect that. It is a pity that you do not honour it.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 44,609
    Don't really see much appeal in Javid other than he seems less obviously a snake like Hunt, and there are some far worse candidates, but it would be interesting to see if he would blossom a bit in the top job.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 55,950
    All very interesting but it is Tory members as a whole who have the final vote on the next leader, councillors tend to favour less populist candidates
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,140


    SeanT said:

    (who STILL haven't elected a woman leader, let alone a female PM)

    As the current leader is still here from when the complaint was last made I am not sure that is too surprising. Gender reassignment surgery does seem like a bit of an extreme shout. Labour's next leader is very likely to be a woman but that isn't going to happen until there is a vacancy...

    So for example don't be surprised if by next year Labour STILL haven't elected a woman leader, it is actually not possible for Labour to do so until a vacancy appears.

    Errr .... but there was a vacancy in Wales.

    Labour had a choice between

    (i) an old white guy, (ii) a woman, (ii) a BAME candidate

    It was the same old, same old.
    Considering SeanT specifically referenced PM and said Labour rather than Welsh Labour I'm not sure that really counts. Also I'd imagine the complaint is much better directed at centrists given that Blair and Kinnock held the Labour leadership between them for so long. The left has come to power and straight away it has mostly been declared around the party the next leader will be a woman.

    Wouldn't be surprised to see the same happen in Wales, the left takes power which then results in a woman taking the top job next time.

    Corbyn was the first Labour leader to introduce a gender balanced cabinet. With the left taking power things have thankfully moved in the right direction on these things.

    Although in fairness I think Blair did do some early work in this department as well.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 55,950
    SeanT said:

    I'd go for Javid. He would, potentially, wallop Corbyn. He would also, yet again, prove that when it comes to reality rather than theory, the Tories are way more progressive than Labour (who STILL haven't elected a woman leader, let alone a female PM)

    My paradoxical worry is that, in his gratitude, he would be too rightwing and anti-migrant.

    I could live with Javid but would vote for Boris, for now though I am happy with May
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 7,760
    edited December 2018

    Isn't there a potential flaw in Saajid winning over the votes of the hard right by reenacting the early third reich's treatment of Jews... A reason some of the prejudiced types wouldn't like the man proposing the policy despite liking the policy.

    Not everyone has the vision to empower those closest to their perceived enemy to assist in trying to wipe them out.

    Its a bit rich a Jezbollah fan claiming to care about jewish people



  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 2,772



    Considering SeanT specifically referenced PM and said Labour rather than Welsh Labour I'm not sure that really counts. Also I'd imagine the complaint is much better directed at centrists given that Blair and Kinnock held the Labour leadership between them for so long. The left has come to power and straight away it has mostly been declared around the party the next leader will be a woman.

    Wouldn't be surprised to see the same happen in Wales, the left takes power which then results in a woman taking the top job next time.

    I bet you are wrong about Wales.

    The Labour party in South Wales belongs to the Late Cretaceous period.

    Remember dinosaurs like Owen Smith, who managed to patronise Leanne Wood and Nicola Sturgeon.

    And remember what he wanted to do to Theresa May -- he wanted to "smash her back in her high heels"

    Yeah .. yeah .. it's just banter. The Labour party in Wales is a long, long, long way from electing a female leader.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 8,784

    Brexit is a negotiation with the EU. The only way we can exert leverage in the negotiation of the future trade deal is to negotiate in parallel with the divorce deal.

    The WTO Deal (so called No Deal) is now the only route to enable such a parallel negotiation.
    Let's not use euphemisms or superfluous modifiers. "No Deal" is "No Deal", not "WTO Deal" and definitely not "managed No Deal" (unless you do do side-deals). Pretending that a deal exists in "no deal" is like saying atheism is a religion.
  • Jonathan said:

    I did something amazing tonight. I landed at Gatwick.

    Better run than Heathrow, in my experience. Flew from Stansted recently. That was 'interesting'....
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,140
    edited December 2018
    Floater said:

    Isn't there a potential flaw in Saajid winning over the votes of the hard right by reenacting the early third reich's treatment of Jews... A reason some of the prejudiced types wouldn't like the man proposing the policy despite liking the policy.

    Not everyone has the vision to empower those closest to their perceived enemy to assist in trying to wipe them out.

    Its a bit rich a Jezbollah fan claiming to care about jewish people



    Sean was talking about Muslims...

    Also I know it is confusing but Labour just don't like occupation of Palestine, Jews are cool, it isn't like a Conservative with Muslims or the windrush generation type thing. In fact the head of momentum is a Jewish guy, probably one of the key people in the Corbyn project.
  • viewcode said:

    Brexit is a negotiation with the EU. The only way we can exert leverage in the negotiation of the future trade deal is to negotiate in parallel with the divorce deal.

    The WTO Deal (so called No Deal) is now the only route to enable such a parallel negotiation.
    Let's not use euphemisms or superfluous modifiers. "No Deal" is "No Deal", not "WTO Deal" and definitely not "managed No Deal" (unless you do do side-deals). Pretending that a deal exists in "no deal" is like saying atheism is a religion.
    WTO is a deal we already have. Therefore it is both "No [new] Deal" and "WTO [existing] Deal".

    Brexit is like a high flying trapeze artist performing risky stunts. It could be dangerous, or it could be spectacular.

    If a trapeze artist goes to perform and uses no other safety equipment but there is a safety net underneath that already exists, then does the trapeze artist have no safety equipment? Or is the safety net that is pre-existing a piece of safety equipment?

    Yes the trapeze artist might be safer being strapped into a harness, but if they think that would betray the whole reason they chose to perform a show and just rely upon what is there even if it is riskier, then that's not a no-safety decision.

    The WTO is our safety net. It is a deal we already can rely upon. May's deal is like a harness. It keeps us safe but also keeps us bound and restricted.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,140



    Considering SeanT specifically referenced PM and said Labour rather than Welsh Labour I'm not sure that really counts. Also I'd imagine the complaint is much better directed at centrists given that Blair and Kinnock held the Labour leadership between them for so long. The left has come to power and straight away it has mostly been declared around the party the next leader will be a woman.

    Wouldn't be surprised to see the same happen in Wales, the left takes power which then results in a woman taking the top job next time.

    I bet you are wrong about Wales.

    The Labour party in South Wales belongs to the Late Cretaceous period.

    Remember dinosaurs like Owen Smith, who managed to patronise Leanne Wood and Nicola Sturgeon.

    And remember what he wanted to do to Theresa May -- he wanted to "smash her back in her high heels"

    Yeah .. yeah .. it's just banter. The Labour party in Wales is a long, long, long way from electing a female leader.
    Yeah and remember the guy got slaughtered, even in Wales Corbyn beat him, also this guy is an MP. It is an assembly minister that would eventually take Drakefords position.

    The party does have some work to do bringing through some new talent in the assembly and that is something the new leader will hopefully do. Quite frankly he would have been selected even if the other 2 candidates had been more manly, more white and older. He was selected because he was the Corbyn candidate. I'm sure they'll be wary of the fact they need to get women in leadership positions and that is what will help push them to do so.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 2,772



    Considering SeanT specifically referenced PM and said Labour rather than Welsh Labour I'm not sure that really counts. Also I'd imagine the complaint is much better directed at centrists given that Blair and Kinnock held the Labour leadership between them for so long. The left has come to power and straight away it has mostly been declared around the party the next leader will be a woman.

    Wouldn't be surprised to see the same happen in Wales, the left takes power which then results in a woman taking the top job next time.

    I bet you are wrong about Wales.

    The Labour party in South Wales belongs to the Late Cretaceous period.

    Remember dinosaurs like Owen Smith, who managed to patronise Leanne Wood and Nicola Sturgeon.

    And remember what he wanted to do to Theresa May -- he wanted to "smash her back in her high heels"

    Yeah .. yeah .. it's just banter. The Labour party in Wales is a long, long, long way from electing a female leader.
    Yeah and remember the guy got slaughtered, even in Wales Corbyn beat him, also this guy is an MP. It is an assembly minister that would eventually take Drakefords position.

    The party does have some work to do bringing through some new talent in the assembly and that is something the new leader will hopefully do. Quite frankly he would have been selected even if the other 2 candidates had been more manly, more white and older. He was selected because he was the Corbyn candidate. I'm sure they'll be wary of the fact they need to get women in leadership positions and that is what will help push them to do so.
    I think Labour made the wrong choice.

    The leader your opponents feared was the woman.
  • Floater said:

    Isn't there a potential flaw in Saajid winning over the votes of the hard right by reenacting the early third reich's treatment of Jews... A reason some of the prejudiced types wouldn't like the man proposing the policy despite liking the policy.

    Not everyone has the vision to empower those closest to their perceived enemy to assist in trying to wipe them out.

    Its a bit rich a Jezbollah fan claiming to care about jewish people



    Sean was talking about Muslims...

    Also I know it is confusing but Labour just don't like occupation of Palestine, Jews are cool, it isn't like a Conservative with Muslims or the windrush generation type thing. In fact the head of momentum is a Jewish guy, probably one of the key people in the Corbyn project.
    Did you miss the bit where a terrifyingly large number of Momentum-ites quit because they posted an online video saying that maybe antisemitism was a bad thing, and then another tranche decided Momentum had "gone Zionist" when they picketed David Icke?

    Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party, and nothing gets done about it. Worst case scenario if an example makes the national media they get a six month suspension and a training course.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 28,754

    Brexit is a negotiation with the EU. The only way we can exert leverage in the negotiation of the future trade deal is to negotiate in parallel with the divorce deal.

    The WTO Deal (so called No Deal) is now the only route to enable such a parallel negotiation.
    We negotiated the backstop in parallel with the money. Did it give us leverage?
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,140

    Floater said:

    Isn't there a potential flaw in Saajid winning over the votes of the hard right by reenacting the early third reich's treatment of Jews... A reason some of the prejudiced types wouldn't like the man proposing the policy despite liking the policy.

    Not everyone has the vision to empower those closest to their perceived enemy to assist in trying to wipe them out.

    Its a bit rich a Jezbollah fan claiming to care about jewish people



    Sean was talking about Muslims...

    Also I know it is confusing but Labour just don't like occupation of Palestine, Jews are cool, it isn't like a Conservative with Muslims or the windrush generation type thing. In fact the head of momentum is a Jewish guy, probably one of the key people in the Corbyn project.
    Did you miss the bit where a terrifyingly large number of Momentum-ites quit because they posted an online video saying that maybe antisemitism was a bad thing, and then another tranche decided Momentum had "gone Zionist" when they picketed David Icke?

    Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party, and nothing gets done about it. Worst case scenario if an example makes the national media they get a six month suspension and a training course.
    Do you have proof of a terrifyingly large number of Momentum-ites quitting?

    Note: a few comments on twitter is not proof of this.

    Antisemitism is so rampant a sewer in Labour that is it around about Lib Dem levels and lower than in the Conservatives. Admittedly the latter should be a given rather than anything to brag about.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,140



    Considering SeanT specifically referenced PM and said Labour rather than Welsh Labour I'm not sure that really counts. Also I'd imagine the complaint is much better directed at centrists given that Blair and Kinnock held the Labour leadership between them for so long. The left has come to power and straight away it has mostly been declared around the party the next leader will be a woman.

    Wouldn't be surprised to see the same happen in Wales, the left takes power which then results in a woman taking the top job next time.

    I bet you are wrong about Wales.

    The Labour party in South Wales belongs to the Late Cretaceous period.

    Remember dinosaurs like Owen Smith, who managed to patronise Leanne Wood and Nicola Sturgeon.

    And remember what he wanted to do to Theresa May -- he wanted to "smash her back in her high heels"

    Yeah .. yeah .. it's just banter. The Labour party in Wales is a long, long, long way from electing a female leader.
    Yeah and remember the guy got slaughtered, even in Wales Corbyn beat him, also this guy is an MP. It is an assembly minister that would eventually take Drakefords position.

    The party does have some work to do bringing through some new talent in the assembly and that is something the new leader will hopefully do. Quite frankly he would have been selected even if the other 2 candidates had been more manly, more white and older. He was selected because he was the Corbyn candidate. I'm sure they'll be wary of the fact they need to get women in leadership positions and that is what will help push them to do so.
    I think Labour made the wrong choice.

    The leader your opponents feared was the woman.
    TBH in terms of keeping power we are probably fine either way, the person in charge doesn't exactly need to perform miracles electorally for Labour to retain power in the assembly. What matters most when picking the person is their policy, in theory the better policy should usually lead to electoral rewards in the long run.

  • Floater said:

    Isn't there a potential flaw in Saajid winning over the votes of the hard right by reenacting the early third reich's treatment of Jews... A reason some of the prejudiced types wouldn't like the man proposing the policy despite liking the policy.

    Not everyone has the vision to empower those closest to their perceived enemy to assist in trying to wipe them out.

    Its a bit rich a Jezbollah fan claiming to care about jewish people



    Sean was talking about Muslims...

    Also I know it is confusing but Labour just don't like occupation of Palestine, Jews are cool, it isn't like a Conservative with Muslims or the windrush generation type thing. In fact the head of momentum is a Jewish guy, probably one of the key people in the Corbyn project.
    Did you miss the bit where a terrifyingly large number of Momentum-ites quit because they posted an online video saying that maybe antisemitism was a bad thing, and then another tranche decided Momentum had "gone Zionist" when they picketed David Icke?

    Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party, and nothing gets done about it. Worst case scenario if an example makes the national media they get a six month suspension and a training course.
    Antisemitism is so rampant a sewer in Labour that is it around about Lib Dem levels and lower than in the Conservatives.
    Citation required.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,140

    Floater said:

    Isn't there a potential flaw in Saajid winning over the votes of the hard right by reenacting the early third reich's treatment of Jews... A reason some of the prejudiced types wouldn't like the man proposing the policy despite liking the policy.

    Not everyone has the vision to empower those closest to their perceived enemy to assist in trying to wipe them out.

    Its a bit rich a Jezbollah fan claiming to care about jewish people



    Sean was talking about Muslims...

    Also I know it is confusing but Labour just don't like occupation of Palestine, Jews are cool, it isn't like a Conservative with Muslims or the windrush generation type thing. In fact the head of momentum is a Jewish guy, probably one of the key people in the Corbyn project.
    Did you miss the bit where a terrifyingly large number of Momentum-ites quit because they posted an online video saying that maybe antisemitism was a bad thing, and then another tranche decided Momentum had "gone Zionist" when they picketed David Icke?

    Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party, and nothing gets done about it. Worst case scenario if an example makes the national media they get a six month suspension and a training course.
    Antisemitism is so rampant a sewer in Labour that is it around about Lib Dem levels and lower than in the Conservatives.
    Citation required.
    http://antisemitism.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Antisemitism-Barometer-2017.pdf … …
    Page 6
    Endorsed at least one anti semitic statement
    Conservative 40%
    Labour 32%
    Lib Dems 30%


    Citation provided.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 33,922
    edited December 2018

    Floater said:

    Isn't there a potential flaw in Saajid winning over the votes of the hard right by reenacting the early third reich's treatment of Jews... A reason some of the prejudiced types wouldn't like the man proposing the policy despite liking the policy.

    Not everyone has the vision to empower those closest to their perceived enemy to assist in trying to wipe them out.

    Its a bit rich a Jezbollah fan claiming to care about jewish people



    Sean was talking about Muslims...

    Also I know it is confusing but Labour just don't like occupation of Palestine, Jews are cool, it isn't like a Conservative with Muslims or the windrush generation type thing. In fact the head of momentum is a Jewish guy, probably one of the key people in the Corbyn project.
    Did you miss the bit where a terrifyingly large number of Momentum-ites quit because they posted an online video saying that maybe antisemitism was a bad thing, and then another tranche decided Momentum had "gone Zionist" when they picketed David Icke?

    Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party, and nothing gets done about it. Worst case scenario if an example makes the national media they get a six month suspension and a training course.
    Antisemitism is so rampant a sewer in Labour that is it around about Lib Dem levels and lower than in the Conservatives.
    Citation required.
    http://antisemitism.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Antisemitism-Barometer-2017.pdf … …
    Page 6
    Endorsed at least one anti semitic statement
    Conservative 40%
    Labour 32%
    Lib Dems 30%


    Citation provided.
    That's voters not the parties - the claim you responded to.

    You gloss over:

    For two years, more than 4 in 5 British Jews have considered the Labour Party to be harbouring antisemites in its ranks. The level of criticism of the Labour Party stood out starkly against that levelled at other parties, however, over 40% of British Jews also consistently considered the UK Independence Party and the Green Party to be deficient in tackling antisemites in their ranks. Similarly, over 30% consistently criticised the Liberal Democrat Party and the Scottish National Party.

    Although the number of British Jews criticising the Conservative Party’s handling of antisemitism rose in 2017, it was the only party to be considered to be doing enough by more than 80% of British Jews. The fact that only one of the country’s major political parties was in this category should be a cause for major concern about the health of British politics.


    Page 19.
  • Floater said:

    Isn't there a potential flaw in Saajid winning over the votes of the hard right by reenacting the early third reich's treatment of Jews... A reason some of the prejudiced types wouldn't like the man proposing the policy despite liking the policy.

    Not everyone has the vision to empower those closest to their perceived enemy to assist in trying to wipe them out.

    Its a bit rich a Jezbollah fan claiming to care about jewish people



    Sean was talking about Muslims...

    Also I know it is confusing but Labour just don't like occupation of Palestine, Jews are cool, it isn't like a Conservative with Muslims or the windrush generation type thing. In fact the head of momentum is a Jewish guy, probably one of the key people in the Corbyn project.
    Did you miss the bit where a terrifyingly large number of Momentum-ites quit because they posted an online video saying that maybe antisemitism was a bad thing, and then another tranche decided Momentum had "gone Zionist" when they picketed David Icke?

    Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party, and nothing gets done about it. Worst case scenario if an example makes the national media they get a six month suspension and a training course.
    Antisemitism is so rampant a sewer in Labour that is it around about Lib Dem levels and lower than in the Conservatives.
    Citation required.
    http://antisemitism.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Antisemitism-Barometer-2017.pdf … …
    Page 6
    Endorsed at least one anti semitic statement
    Conservative 40%
    Labour 32%
    Lib Dems 30%


    Citation provided.
    For two years, more than 4 in 5 British
    Jews have considered the Labour Party
    to be harbouring antisemites in its
    ranks. ...

    Labour Party supporters are less likely
    to be antisemitic than other voters, so
    the cause of British Jews’
    discontentment with the Labour Party
    must be the way that it has very publicly
    failed to robustly deal with the
    antisemites in its ranks. This means that
    the Labour Party has fallen out of step
    with its core supporters, who are
    generally less likely to hold antisemitic
    beliefs.


    The Momentum/Jez/Livingstone far-left tendency tolerate antisemitism and have taken over control of the party. The moderate centre-left aren't antisemitic but aren't in charge of the party. They dilute the antisemitism of the far left.
  • Irish No Deal Brexit planning including a hard border with the North

    https://merrionstreet.ie/MerrionStreet/en/News-Room/Releases/No_Deal_Brexit_Contingency_Plan.pdf
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Olly Robbins is working on another magic unicorn!



    I wonder if it will end in ritual humiliation for May like his last two unicorns did.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,140

    Floater said:

    Isn't there a potential flaw in Saajid winning over the votes of the hard right by reenacting the early third reich's treatment of Jews... A reason some of the prejudiced types wouldn't like the man proposing the policy despite liking the policy.

    Not everyone has the vision to empower those closest to their perceived enemy to assist in trying to wipe them out.

    Its a bit rich a Jezbollah fan claiming to care about jewish people



    Sean was talking about Muslims...

    Also I know it is confusing but Labour just don't like occupation of Palestine, Jews are cool, it isn't like a Conservative with Muslims or the windrush generation type thing. In fact the head of momentum is a Jewish guy, probably one of the key people in the Corbyn project.
    Did you miss the bit where a terrifyingly large number of Momentum-ites quit because they posted an online video saying that maybe antisemitism was a bad thing, and then another tranche decided Momentum had "gone Zionist" when they picketed David Icke?

    Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party, and nothing gets done about it. Worst case scenario if an example makes the national media they get a six month suspension and a training course.
    Antisemitism is so rampant a sewer in Labour that is it around about Lib Dem levels and lower than in the Conservatives.
    Citation required.
    http://antisemitism.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Antisemitism-Barometer-2017.pdf … …
    Page 6
    Endorsed at least one anti semitic statement
    Conservative 40%
    Labour 32%
    Lib Dems 30%


    Citation provided.
    That's voters not the parties - the claim you responded to.

    The claim I responded to said the Labour party, he didn't specify MPs, members or voters. Of course voters would include all the previous.

    Also as for your other bit the poster said 'Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party', not that it is perception of some Jewish people that 'Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party' Also I never claimed anything about perception just the amount of Antisemitism.
  • Floater said:

    Isn't there a potential flaw in Saajid winning over the votes of the hard right by reenacting the early third reich's treatment of Jews... A reason some of the prejudiced types wouldn't like the man proposing the policy despite liking the policy.

    Not everyone has the vision to empower those closest to their perceived enemy to assist in trying to wipe them out.

    Its a bit rich a Jezbollah fan claiming to care about jewish people



    Sean was talking about Muslims...

    Also I know it is confusing but Labour just don't like occupation of Palestine, Jews are cool, it isn't like a Conservative with Muslims or the windrush generation type thing. In fact the head of momentum is a Jewish guy, probably one of the key people in the Corbyn project.
    Did you miss the bit where a terrifyingly large number of Momentum-ites quit because they posted an online video saying that maybe antisemitism was a bad thing, and then another tranche decided Momentum had "gone Zionist" when they picketed David Icke?

    Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party, and nothing gets done about it. Worst case scenario if an example makes the national media they get a six month suspension and a training course.
    Do you have proof of a terrifyingly large number of Momentum-ites quitting?

    Note: a few comments on twitter is not proof of this.

    Antisemitism is so rampant a sewer in Labour that is it around about Lib Dem levels and lower than in the Conservatives. Admittedly the latter should be a given rather than anything to brag about.
    Read just the comments that have been allowed to stay up. Top comment, 221 likes - "Why are Momentum trying to defend the Rothschilds". And it goes on.

    https://www.facebook.com/PeoplesMomentum/posts/767756453569744

    And stop using the poll of voters as if it tells us anything about members. Holocaust Deniers as Council candidates, for pity's sake. Jeremy Corbyn posing for photo opps with "Jews cause all the wars in the world" types.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    Irish No Deal Brexit planning including a hard border with the North

    https://merrionstreet.ie/MerrionStreet/en/News-Room/Releases/No_Deal_Brexit_Contingency_Plan.pdf

    It's very vague, but it seems like the EU's basic plan is to treat NI as if it has been annexed into a united ireland already.
  • Irish No Deal Brexit planning including a hard border with the North

    https://merrionstreet.ie/MerrionStreet/en/News-Room/Releases/No_Deal_Brexit_Contingency_Plan.pdf

    It's very vague, but it seems like the EU's basic plan is to treat NI as if it has been annexed into a united ireland already.
    Indeed. The UK's basic plan should be to treat NI as if it is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, which has voted as a United Kingdom to leave the EU.
  • Floater said:

    Isn't there a potential flaw in Saajid winning over the votes of the hard right by reenacting the early third reich's treatment of Jews... A reason some of the prejudiced types wouldn't like the man proposing the policy despite liking the policy.

    Not everyone has the vision to empower those closest to their perceived enemy to assist in trying to wipe them out.

    Its a bit rich a Jezbollah fan claiming to care about jewish people



    Sean was talking about Muslims...

    Also I know it is confusing but Labour just don't like occupation of Palestine, Jews are cool, it isn't like a Conservative with Muslims or the windrush generation type thing. In fact the head of momentum is a Jewish guy, probably one of the key people in the Corbyn project.
    Did you miss the bit where a terrifyingly large number of Momentum-ites quit because they posted an online video saying that maybe antisemitism was a bad thing, and then another tranche decided Momentum had "gone Zionist" when they picketed David Icke?

    Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party, and nothing gets done about it. Worst case scenario if an example makes the national media they get a six month suspension and a training course.
    Antisemitism is so rampant a sewer in Labour that is it around about Lib Dem levels and lower than in the Conservatives.
    Citation required.
    http://antisemitism.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Antisemitism-Barometer-2017.pdf … …
    Page 6
    Endorsed at least one anti semitic statement
    Conservative 40%
    Labour 32%
    Lib Dems 30%


    Citation provided.
    That's voters not the parties - the claim you responded to.

    The claim I responded to said the Labour party, he didn't specify MPs, members or voters. Of course voters would include all the previous.

    Also as for your other bit the poster said 'Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party', not that it is perception of some Jewish people that 'Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party' Also I never claimed anything about perception just the amount of Antisemitism.
    Labour voters aren't the Labour Party, they're Labour voters. If I say "Tesco" I mean the company, don't I, not the customers.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,140

    Floater said:


    http://antisemitism.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Antisemitism-Barometer-2017.pdf … …
    Page 6
    Endorsed at least one anti semitic statement
    Conservative 40%
    Labour 32%
    Lib Dems 30%


    Citation provided.
    For two years, more than 4 in 5 British
    Jews have considered the Labour Party
    to be harbouring antisemites in its
    ranks. ...

    Labour Party supporters are less likely
    to be antisemitic than other voters, so
    the cause of British Jews’
    discontentment with the Labour Party
    must be the way that it has very publicly
    failed to robustly deal with the
    antisemites in its ranks. This means that
    the Labour Party has fallen out of step
    with its core supporters, who are
    generally less likely to hold antisemitic
    beliefs.


    The Momentum/Jez/Livingstone far-left tendency tolerate antisemitism and have taken over control of the party. The moderate centre-left aren't antisemitic but aren't in charge of the party. They dilute the antisemitism of the far left.
    Whilst I am sure the right wingers are right and Jon Lansman is secretly a virulent anti semite who wants to wipe out the Jewish people I do have a problem with your statement and its contradiction of the available evidence....

    https://antisemitism.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Antisemitism-Barometer-2017.pdf
    Page 33

    2015 general election
    Labour no anti semitic statements agreed with 68%

    Page 48

    2017 general election
    Labour no anti semitic statements agreed with 68%

    The incredible growth in anti semitic Labour voters is a whole 0 percent. Given he had been in charge about 2 years at this point that is in increase of 0 percent a year. Breaking it down that is 0 extra anti semites attracted each month and 0 extra anti semites a week and even taking it down to a day it is a whole 0 extra every single day. In fact going by those figures and estimating forward a whole 0 anti semites would come round to supporting Labour in just the time it took me to write this post.

    A truly shocking reflection on what Corbyn has done to Labour.
  • Floater said:

    Isn't there a potential flaw in Saajid winning over the votes of the hard right by reenacting the early third reich's treatment of Jews... A reason some of the prejudiced types wouldn't like the man proposing the policy despite liking the policy.

    Not everyone has the vision to empower those closest to their perceived enemy to assist in trying to wipe them out.

    Its a bit rich a Jezbollah fan claiming to care about jewish people



    Sean was talking about Muslims...

    Also I know it is confusing but Labour just don't like occupation of Palestine, Jews are cool, it isn't like a Conservative with Muslims or the windrush generation type thing. In fact the head of momentum is a Jewish guy, probably one of the key people in the Corbyn project.
    Did you miss the bit where a terrifyingly large number of Momentum-ites quit because they posted an online video saying that maybe antisemitism was a bad thing, and then another tranche decided Momentum had "gone Zionist" when they picketed David Icke?

    Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party, and nothing gets done about it. Worst case scenario if an example makes the national media they get a six month suspension and a training course.
    Antisemitism is so rampant a sewer in Labour that is it around about Lib Dem levels and lower than in the Conservatives.
    Citation required.
    http://antisemitism.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Antisemitism-Barometer-2017.pdf … …
    Page 6
    Endorsed at least one anti semitic statement
    Conservative 40%
    Labour 32%
    Lib Dems 30%


    Citation provided.
    That's voters not the parties - the claim you responded to.

    The claim I responded to said the Labour party, he didn't specify MPs, members or voters. Of course voters would include all the previous.

    Also as for your other bit the poster said 'Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party', not that it is perception of some Jewish people that 'Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party' Also I never claimed anything about perception just the amount of Antisemitism.
    Labour voters aren't the Labour Party, they're Labour voters. If I say "Tesco" I mean the company, don't I, not the customers.
    Well said.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    edited December 2018

    Irish No Deal Brexit planning including a hard border with the North

    https://merrionstreet.ie/MerrionStreet/en/News-Room/Releases/No_Deal_Brexit_Contingency_Plan.pdf

    It's very vague, but it seems like the EU's basic plan is to treat NI as if it has been annexed into a united ireland already.
    Indeed. The UK's basic plan should be to treat NI as if it is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, which has voted as a United Kingdom to leave the EU.
    Here's where things get tricky though. If we don't let the EU indulge in a regulatory and customs annexation of Northern Ireland, the UK has no way of preventing the violation of the EU's regulatory and customs regime via Northern Ireland. The gentleman's way of resolving such a dispute would be, I presume, formal litigation by the EU against the UK under the WTO, and the imposition of punitive tariffs.

    The less gentlemanly way would be a blockade of Northern Ireland's ports.

    I really doubt the UK wants to go down either of these roads, so when the time comes we will agree to the annexation of NI by the EU.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,140

    Floater said:

    Isn't there a potential flaw in Saajid winning over the votes of the hard right by reenacting the early third reich's treatment of Jews... A reason some of the prejudiced types wouldn't like the man proposing the policy despite liking the policy.

    Not everyone has the vision to empower those closest to their perceived enemy to assist in trying to wipe them out.

    Its a bit rich a Jezbollah fan claiming to care about jewish people



    Sean was talking about Muslims...

    Also I know it is confusing but Labour just don't like occupation of Palestine, Jews are cool, it isn't like a Conservative with Muslims or the windrush generation type thing. In fact the head of momentum is a Jewish guy, probably one of the key people in the Corbyn project.
    Did you miss the bit where a terrifyingly large number of Momentum-ites quit because they posted an online video saying that maybe antisemitism was a bad thing, and then another tranche decided Momentum had "gone Zionist" when they picketed David Icke?

    Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party, and nothing gets done about it. Worst case scenario if an example makes the national media they get a six month suspension and a training course.
    Do you have proof of a terrifyingly large number of Momentum-ites quitting?

    Note: a few comments on twitter is not proof of this.

    Antisemitism is so rampant a sewer in Labour that is it around about Lib Dem levels and lower than in the Conservatives. Admittedly the latter should be a given rather than anything to brag about.
    Read just the comments that have been allowed to stay up. Top comment, 221 likes - "Why are Momentum trying to defend the Rothschilds". And it goes on.

    https://www.facebook.com/PeoplesMomentum/posts/767756453569744

    And stop using the poll of voters as if it tells us anything about members. Holocaust Deniers as Council candidates, for pity's sake. Jeremy Corbyn posing for photo opps with "Jews cause all the wars in the world" types.
    Stop using actual figures in studies carried out by professionals and just pay attention to my right wing anecdotes!!

  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,140

    Floater said:

    Did you miss the bit where a terrifyingly large number of Momentum-ites quit because they posted an online video saying that maybe antisemitism was a bad thing, and then another tranche decided Momentum had "gone Zionist" when they picketed David Icke?

    Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party, and nothing gets done about it. Worst case scenario if an example makes the national media they get a six month suspension and a training course.
    Antisemitism is so rampant a sewer in Labour that is it around about Lib Dem levels and lower than in the Conservatives.
    Citation required.
    http://antisemitism.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Antisemitism-Barometer-2017.pdf … …
    Page 6
    Endorsed at least one anti semitic statement
    Conservative 40%
    Labour 32%
    Lib Dems 30%


    Citation provided.
    That's voters not the parties - the claim you responded to.

    The claim I responded to said the Labour party, he didn't specify MPs, members or voters. Of course voters would include all the previous.

    Also as for your other bit the poster said 'Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party', not that it is perception of some Jewish people that 'Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party' Also I never claimed anything about perception just the amount of Antisemitism.
    Labour voters aren't the Labour Party, they're Labour voters. If I say "Tesco" I mean the company, don't I, not the customers.
    The MPs and members are the voters of the party, it seems strange that 'Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party' but the hard data available contradicts it and all that is offered in defence of your statement is anecdotes...

    You are about as convincing as a flat earther at this point, as Carlotta would say, citation required.
  • Floater said:

    Isn't there a potential flaw in Saajid winning over the votes of the hard right by reenacting the early third reich's treatment of Jews... A reason some of the prejudiced types wouldn't like the man proposing the policy despite liking the policy.

    Not everyone has the vision to empower those closest to their perceived enemy to assist in trying to wipe them out.

    Its a bit rich a Jezbollah fan claiming to care about jewish people



    Sean was talking about Muslims...

    Also I know it is confusing but Labour just don't like occupation of Palestine, Jews are cool, it isn't like a Conservative with Muslims or the windrush generation type thing. In fact the head of momentum is a Jewish guy, probably one of the key people in the Corbyn project.
    Did you miss the bit where a terrifyingly large number of Momentum-ites quit because they posted an online video saying that maybe antisemitism was a bad thing, and then another tranche decided Momentum had "gone Zionist" when they picketed David Icke?

    Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party, and nothing gets done about it. Worst case scenario if an example makes the national media they get a six month suspension and a training course.
    Do you have proof of a terrifyingly large number of Momentum-ites quitting?

    Note: a few comments on twitter is not proof of this.

    Antisemitism is so rampant a sewer in Labour that is it around about Lib Dem levels and lower than in the Conservatives. Admittedly the latter should be a given rather than anything to brag about.
    Read just the comments that have been allowed to stay up. Top comment, 221 likes - "Why are Momentum trying to defend the Rothschilds". And it goes on.

    https://www.facebook.com/PeoplesMomentum/posts/767756453569744

    And stop using the poll of voters as if it tells us anything about members. Holocaust Deniers as Council candidates, for pity's sake. Jeremy Corbyn posing for photo opps with "Jews cause all the wars in the world" types.
    Stop using actual figures in studies carried out by professionals and just pay attention to my right wing anecdotes!!

    I'm not right wing, and that's not an anecdote - it's a link to a primary source for the thing we're talking about.

    As opposed to your study which measures a different thing from what we're talking about, something Factcheck sites have warned about cherry-picking.

    Meanwhile, your approach to the terror Corybnism is causing among British Jews is "well, the Jews must be wrong". An approach the radical left wouldn't countenance if directed at another minority group.
  • Irish No Deal Brexit planning including a hard border with the North

    https://merrionstreet.ie/MerrionStreet/en/News-Room/Releases/No_Deal_Brexit_Contingency_Plan.pdf

    It's very vague, but it seems like the EU's basic plan is to treat NI as if it has been annexed into a united ireland already.
    Indeed. The UK's basic plan should be to treat NI as if it is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, which has voted as a United Kingdom to leave the EU.
    Here's where things get tricky though. If we don't let the EU indulge in a regulatory and customs annexation of Northern Ireland, the UK has no way of preventing the violation of the EU's regulatory and customs regime via Northern Ireland. The gentleman's way of resolving such a dispute would be, I presume, formal litigation by the EU against the UK under the WTO, and the imposition of punitive tariffs.

    The less gentlemanly way would be a blockade of Northern Ireland's ports.

    I really doubt the UK wants to go down either of these roads, so when the time comes we will agree to the annexation of NI by the EU.
    You what?

    Under what possible grounds could the UK be litigated against for violating the EU's regimes via Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland will not be part of the EU.

    The integrity of the EU is their problem not ours. They're trying to make it ours and we are meekly going along out of a craven attitude.

    The EU can maintain their integrity in a plethora of ways, it just doesn't want to.

    It could do so at the border.
    It could reach a trade deal making the border moot.
    It could rely on self reporting and inspections away from the border.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,140

    Floater said:


    Read just the comments that have been allowed to stay up. Top comment, 221 likes - "Why are Momentum trying to defend the Rothschilds". And it goes on.

    https://www.facebook.com/PeoplesMomentum/posts/767756453569744

    And stop using the poll of voters as if it tells us anything about members. Holocaust Deniers as Council candidates, for pity's sake. Jeremy Corbyn posing for photo opps with "Jews cause all the wars in the world" types.
    Stop using actual figures in studies carried out by professionals and just pay attention to my right wing anecdotes!!

    I'm not right wing, and that's not an anecdote - it's a link to a primary source for the thing we're talking about.

    As opposed to your study which measures a different thing from what we're talking about, something Factcheck sites have warned about cherry-picking.

    Meanwhile, your approach to the terror Corybnism is causing among British Jews is "well, the Jews must be wrong". An approach the radical left wouldn't countenance if directed at another minority group.
    I don't care if you are right wing, it is a right wing anecdote. Ahh ignore the figures and studies, look some stuff online... clearly Labour are anti semites.

    Your statement about 'Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party' completely contradicts the facts we have available which show anti semitism hasn't moved at all in the Labour party.

    The party has somehow had anti semitism become a rampant sewer in the party whilst the percentage of anti semitism among its voters hasn't moved at all... incredible...

    Almost like you shouting about random anecdotes has much less meaning than the hard data.

    But obviously we can't settle this. Why don't we ask a cross party Parliamentary group what they think in about 2016 when they vast majority of members are already joined up.

    https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201617/cmselect/cmhaff/136/136.pdf

    page 46
    120. Despite significant press and public attention on the Labour Party, and a number of revelations regarding inappropriate social media content, there exists no reliable, empirical evidence to support the notion that there is a higher
    prevalence of antisemitic attitudes within the Labour Party than any other political party.

    Let me guess you don't care about hard data or cross party parliamentary groups... you are still sticking with right wing anecdotes!

    It is who needs experts all over again...
  • Floater said:

    Did you miss the bit where a terrifyingly large number of Momentum-ites quit because they posted an online video saying that maybe antisemitism was a bad thing, and then another tranche decided Momentum had "gone Zionist" when they picketed David Icke?

    Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party, and nothing gets done about it. Worst case scenario if an example makes the national media they get a six month suspension and a training course.
    Antisemitism is so rampant a sewer in Labour that is it around about Lib Dem levels and lower than in the Conservatives.
    Citation required.
    http://antisemitism.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Antisemitism-Barometer-2017.pdf … …
    Page 6
    Endorsed at least one anti semitic statement
    Conservative 40%
    Labour 32%
    Lib Dems 30%


    Citation provided.
    That's voters not the parties - the claim you responded to.

    The claim I responded to said the Labour party, he didn't specify MPs, members or voters. Of course voters would include all the previous.

    Also as for your other bit the poster said 'Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party', not that it is perception of some Jewish people that 'Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party' Also I never claimed anything about perception just the amount of Antisemitism.
    Labour voters aren't the Labour Party, they're Labour voters. If I say "Tesco" I mean the company, don't I, not the customers.
    The MPs and members are the voters of the party, it seems strange that 'Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party' but the hard data available contradicts it and all that is offered in defence of your statement is anecdotes...

    You are about as convincing as a flat earther at this point, as Carlotta would say, citation required.
    I knew that Labour has increased both MPs and members in recent years but I didn't realise Labour had over 12.8 million MPs and members.
  • Floater said:

    Did you miss the bit where a terrifyingly large number of Momentum-ites quit because they posted an online video saying that maybe antisemitism was a bad thing, and then another tranche decided Momentum had "gone Zionist" when they picketed David Icke?

    Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party, and nothing gets done about it. Worst case scenario if an example makes the national media they get a six month suspension and a training course.
    Antisemitism is so rampant a sewer in Labour that is it around about Lib Dem levels and lower than in the Conservatives.
    Citation required.
    http://antisemitism.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Antisemitism-Barometer-2017.pdf … …
    Page 6
    Endorsed at least one anti semitic statement
    Conservative 40%
    Labour 32%
    Lib Dems 30%


    Citation provided.
    That's voters not the parties - the claim you responded to.

    The claim I responded to said the Labour party, he didn't specify MPs, members or voters. Of course voters would include all the previous.

    Also as for your other bit the poster said 'Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party', not that it is perception of some Jewish people that 'Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party' Also I never claimed anything about perception just the amount of Antisemitism.
    Labour voters aren't the Labour Party, they're Labour voters. If I say "Tesco" I mean the company, don't I, not the customers.
    The MPs and members are the voters of the party, it seems strange that 'Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party' but the hard data available contradicts it and all that is offered in defence of your statement is anecdotes...

    You are about as convincing as a flat earther at this point, as Carlotta would say, citation required.
    Labour Party supporters are less likely to be antisemitic than other voters, so the cause of British Jews’ discontentment with the Labour Party must be the way that it has very publicly failed to robustly deal with the antisemites in its ranks. This means that the Labour Party has fallen out of step with its core supporters, who are generally less likely to hold antisemitic beliefs.

    You really should read all of the information in the links you post - not just selected bits to support a narrow point.
  • Another Trump Christmas present to Putin:

  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,140

    Floater said:

    Did you miss the bit where a terrifyingly large number of Momentum-ites quit because they posted an online video saying that maybe antisemitism was a bad thing, and then another tranche decided Momentum had "gone Zionist" when they picketed David Icke?

    Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party, and nothing gets done about it. Worst case scenario if an example makes the national media they get a six month suspension and a training course.
    Antisemitism is so rampant a sewer in Labour that is it around about Lib Dem levels and lower than in the Conservatives.
    Citation required.
    http://antisemitism.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Antisemitism-Barometer-2017.pdf … …
    Page 6
    Endorsed at least one anti semitic statement
    Conservative 40%
    Labour 32%
    Lib Dems 30%


    Citation provided.
    That's voters not the parties - the claim you responded to.

    The claim I responded to said the Labour party, he didn't specify MPs, members or voters. Of course voters would include all the previous.

    Also as for your other bit the poster said 'Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party', not that it is perception of some Jewish people that 'Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party' Also I never claimed anything about perception just the amount of Antisemitism.
    Labour voters aren't the Labour Party, they're Labour voters. If I say "Tesco" I mean the company, don't I, not the customers.
    The MPs and members are the voters of the party, it seems strange that 'Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party' but the hard data available contradicts it and all that is offered in defence of your statement is anecdotes...

    You are about as convincing as a flat earther at this point, as Carlotta would say, citation required.
    I knew that Labour has increased both MPs and members in recent years but I didn't realise Labour had over 12.8 million MPs and members.
    You don't think Party members and MPs are Labour voters?

    I mean sure there will be the odd exception but by and large MPs and members are voters.
  • Floater said:

    Did you miss the bit where a terrifyingly large number of Momentum-ites quit because they posted an online video saying that maybe antisemitism was a bad thing, and then another tranche decided Momentum had "gone Zionist" when they picketed David Icke?

    Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party, and nothing gets done about it. Worst case scenario if an example makes the national media they get a six month suspension and a training course.
    Antisemitism is so rampant a sewer in Labour that is it around about Lib Dem levels and lower than in the Conservatives.
    Citation required.
    http://antisemitism.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Antisemitism-Barometer-2017.pdf … …
    Page 6
    Endorsed at least one anti semitic statement
    Conservative 40%
    Labour 32%
    Lib Dems 30%


    Citation provided.
    That's voters not the parties - the claim you responded to.

    The claim I responded to said the Labour party, he didn't specify MPs, members or voters. Of course voters would include all the previous.

    Also as for your other bit the poster said 'Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party', not that it is perception of some Jewish people that 'Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party' Also I never claimed anything about perception just the amount of Antisemitism.
    Labour voters aren't the Labour Party, they're Labour voters. If I say "Tesco" I mean the company, don't I, not the customers.
    The MPs and members are the voters of the party, it seems strange that 'Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party' but the hard data available contradicts it and all that is offered in defence of your statement is anecdotes...

    You are about as convincing as a flat earther at this point, as Carlotta would say, citation required.
    I knew that Labour has increased both MPs and members in recent years but I didn't realise Labour had over 12.8 million MPs and members.
    You don't think Party members and MPs are Labour voters?

    I mean sure there will be the odd exception but by and large MPs and members are voters.
    They are voters but they are not "the voters" which is what you wrote.

    They are a small fraction of the voters.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,140

    Floater said:

    That's voters not the parties - the claim you responded to.

    The claim I responded to said the Labour party, he didn't specify MPs, members or voters. Of course voters would include all the previous.

    Also as for your other bit the poster said 'Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party', not that it is perception of some Jewish people that 'Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party' Also I never claimed anything about perception just the amount of Antisemitism.
    Labour voters aren't the Labour Party, they're Labour voters. If I say "Tesco" I mean the company, don't I, not the customers.
    The MPs and members are the voters of the party, it seems strange that 'Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party' but the hard data available contradicts it and all that is offered in defence of your statement is anecdotes...

    You are about as convincing as a flat earther at this point, as Carlotta would say, citation required.
    Labour Party supporters are less likely to be antisemitic than other voters, so the cause of British Jews’ discontentment with the Labour Party must be the way that it has very publicly failed to robustly deal with the antisemites in its ranks. This means that the Labour Party has fallen out of step with its core supporters, who are generally less likely to hold antisemitic beliefs.

    You really should read all of the information in the links you post - not just selected bits to support a narrow point.
    Yes but how does that prove the statement that started this little debate?

    'Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party'

    The bit you have just quoted says 'Labour Party supporters are less likely to be antisemitic than other voters'

    These things are a contradiction of each other.

    The other bit you have quoted talks about Jewish perception/discontentment, as I pointed out I wasn't talking about perception but the existence of anti semitism, which all the hard evidence we have suggests is not more prevalent in Labour but actually less so.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,140
    edited December 2018

    Floater said:

    Antisemitism is so rampant a sewer in Labour that is it around about Lib Dem levels and lower than in the Conservatives.
    Citation required.
    http://antisemitism.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Antisemitism-Barometer-2017.pdf … …
    Page 6
    Endorsed at least one anti semitic statement
    Conservative 40%
    Labour 32%
    Lib Dems 30%


    Citation provided.
    That's voters not the parties - the claim you responded to.

    The claim I responded to said the Labour party, he didn't specify MPs, members or voters. Of course voters would include all the previous.

    Also as for your other bit the poster said 'Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party', not that it is perception of some Jewish people that 'Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party' Also I never claimed anything about perception just the amount of Antisemitism.
    Labour voters aren't the Labour Party, they're Labour voters. If I say "Tesco" I mean the company, don't I, not the customers.
    The MPs and members are the voters of the party, it seems strange that 'Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party' but the hard data available contradicts it and all that is offered in defence of your statement is anecdotes...

    You are about as convincing as a flat earther at this point, as Carlotta would say, citation required.
    I knew that Labour has increased both MPs and members in recent years but I didn't realise Labour had over 12.8 million MPs and members.
    You don't think Party members and MPs are Labour voters?

    I mean sure there will be the odd exception but by and large MPs and members are voters.
    They are voters but they are not "the voters" which is what you wrote.

    They are a small fraction of the voters.
    You just said they are not the voters and then said they are a small fraction of... the voters...

    I never said they were the only people who voted for the party. I would have thought it would have been rather obvious to most people they are not.
  • I don't care if you are right wing, it is a right wing anecdote. Ahh ignore the figures and studies, look some stuff online... clearly Labour are anti semites.

    Your statement about 'Antisemitism is a rampant sewer in today's Labour Party' completely contradicts the facts we have available which show anti semitism hasn't moved at all in the Labour party.

    The party has somehow had anti semitism become a rampant sewer in the party whilst the percentage of anti semitism among its voters hasn't moved at all... incredible...

    Almost like you shouting about random anecdotes has much less meaning than the hard data.

    But obviously we can't settle this. Why don't we ask a cross party Parliamentary group what they think in about 2016 when they vast majority of members are already joined up.

    https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201617/cmselect/cmhaff/136/136.pdf

    page 46
    120. Despite significant press and public attention on the Labour Party, and a number of revelations regarding inappropriate social media content, there exists no reliable, empirical evidence to support the notion that there is a higher
    prevalence of antisemitic attitudes within the Labour Party than any other political party.

    Let me guess you don't care about hard data or cross party parliamentary groups... you are still sticking with right wing anecdotes!

    It is who needs experts all over again...

    Do you understand what the word 'anecdote' means? I'm not telling you a story about Jew-hating momentumites. I'm linking you to a Momentum post where they out themselves in all their antisemitic glory, by their hundreds.

    In October 2016 when that report was published I probably agree that there was no reliable empirical evidence of antisemitism being higher within Labour membership than other parties. It hadn't been systematically gathered. There was no "reliable empirical evidence" that the Trump campaign was in cahoots with the Kremlin either.

    It now has. A backlog of thousands of complaints. Holocaust Deniers selected to represent the party. A special election called to the disciplinary committee, and won by a landslide on the manifesto "let's go soft on the Jew-haters". A Leader who lies and lies and lies again when challenged on his trip to honour Jew-murdering terror groups, and who poses in front of the Hezbollah flag.

    Anyway, I'm fairly sure I'm arguing with a parody account, do you also run Corbynsuperfan on Twitter, by any chance?
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,140

    in 2016 the vast majority of people currently in the Labour party were already there! this was after Corbyn's reelection.

    The Labour Party had 564,443 members, an increase from 543,645 in December 2016
    https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN05125#fullreport

    Our membership has barely changed since the report these people you agree there is no proof of greater anti semitism are pretty much exactly the same group you are now accusing!

    TBH If you think some likes on a facebook page means more than statistics compiled by professionals and a cross parliamentary report then I am not sure what to say...

    I tend to prefer something more substantial than anecdotal evidence.

    TBH if you go on twitter and see the kinds of things that some people complain about I wouldn't be surprised if there were thousands of complaints (although I'm a little wary on that figure not being from Labour) I suspect it could also be another one of those anecdotes your fond off.

    To give you an example Marc Wadsworth, who despite what some excitable right wingers say wasn't kicked out for anti semitism, in fact we had the video link put up on PB and plenty of non Corbyn supporters watched it and saw nothing anti semitic.

    Well now every time somebody pops up in a picture with Marc Wadsworth some people on twitter seem to think that is itself an anti semitic act. It gets to the point where if you take your picture with enough people they have picked out as bad (despite a lack of proof) you become a bad person, who then makes other people anti semites by having a picture or being with them... Admittedly that is one of the slightly unhinged groups on twitter but they are the main source I have seen for "thousands of complaints"

    We've selected plenty of bad candidates for various reasons and then unselected them if proof of wrongdoing came to light, could argue the system should be tighter at local level but the leadership is big on local parties having democratic choice. It is a trade off but the local parties should choose we just need a better system in place from local parties to check candidates out.

    _________________________________
    A special election called to the disciplinary committee, and won by a landslide on the manifesto "let's go soft on the Jew-haters".
    ___________________________________

    I don't even quite understand this bit... can we drop the Daily Mail hyperbole so I can figure out exactly what you are criticising....

    Is it the GE17 manifesto that is let's go soft on the Jew-haters?!


  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,140
    edited December 2018
    The leader had 'posed' (as in been in front of or next to) a Hezbollah flag before the 2016 report.

    Just to note this is going off into right wing anecdote territory again... ahh lets just ignore your stats and the cross party report he stood next to a flag man! that is clear as day anti semitism...

    Imagine for a second the argument was the other way around and you provided statistics from a professional polling company and a cross party parliamentary report and all I had to prove my point was a facebook page with some likes on it, him standing next to a flag and various other random anecdotes!

    You would just laugh and ask me to provide some actual proof which is what I have to ask of you TBH.

    TBH Corbyn superfan seems to slip out of character into himself sometimes and talk about allying with the far right, not really my cup of tea. Also wouldn't you be the parody account with your complete ignoring of the substantial evidence I have provided and countering with a facebook page, a man next to a flag... it just sounds like a parody when I write it out!
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 1,945

    Another Trump Christmas present to Putin:

    I wonder if Vova has decided his asset is about to be neutralised and so has decided to go for broke.
  • The leader had 'posed' (as in been in front of or next to) a Hezbollah flag before the 2016 report.

    Just to note this is going off into right wing anecdote territory again... ahh lets just ignore your stats and the cross party report he stood next to a flag man! that is clear as day anti semitism...

    Imagine for a second the argument was the other way around and you provided statistics from a professional polling company and a cross party parliamentary report and all I had to prove my point was a facebook page with some likes on it, him standing next to a flag and various other random anecdotes!

    You would just laugh and ask me to provide some actual proof which is what I have to ask of you TBH.

    TBH Corbyn superfan seems to slip out of character into himself sometimes and talk about allying with the far right, not really my cup of tea. Also wouldn't you be the parody account with your complete ignoring of the substantial evidence I have provided and countering with a facebook page, a man next to a flag... it just sounds like a parody when I write it out!

    You don't think you not acknowledging there's a problem with anti-semitism in the Labour Party might be part of the problem?
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,140

    The leader had 'posed' (as in been in front of or next to) a Hezbollah flag before the 2016 report.

    Just to note this is going off into right wing anecdote territory again... ahh lets just ignore your stats and the cross party report he stood next to a flag man! that is clear as day anti semitism...

    Imagine for a second the argument was the other way around and you provided statistics from a professional polling company and a cross party parliamentary report and all I had to prove my point was a facebook page with some likes on it, him standing next to a flag and various other random anecdotes!

    You would just laugh and ask me to provide some actual proof which is what I have to ask of you TBH.

    TBH Corbyn superfan seems to slip out of character into himself sometimes and talk about allying with the far right, not really my cup of tea. Also wouldn't you be the parody account with your complete ignoring of the substantial evidence I have provided and countering with a facebook page, a man next to a flag... it just sounds like a parody when I write it out!

    You don't think you not acknowledging there's a problem with anti-semitism in the Labour Party might be part of the problem?
    Any racism is a problem, never claimed Labour is completely racism free.

    The line that I said and was disagreed with was 'Antisemitism is so rampant a sewer in Labour that is it around about Lib Dem levels and lower than in the Conservatives.'

    By the same logic surely your finger pointing at Labour without any reflection on what the evidence says about the Conservatives is part of their problem.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 23,815
    It's a shame we're having to go down this topic again, but here are some facts:

    "One in five women in England and Wales have experienced some type of sexual assault since the age of 16, according to official analysis of violent crime figures.

    The latest release of findings from the Crime Survey for England and Wales shows more than 510,000 women – an estimated 3.1% of all women aged 16 to 59 – experienced some type of sexual assault in the past year."

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/feb/08/sexual-assault-women-crime-survey-england-wales-ons-police-figures

    "In England and Wales

    – 9% of adults experienced psychological abuse during childhood.
    – 7% suffered physical abuse in childhood
    – 7% suffered sexual assault in childhood
    – 8% witnessed domestic violence or abuse in the home during childhood"

    https://napac.org.uk/key-facts-figures/

    "Sexual assaults experienced since the age of 16
    The year ending March 2017 Crime Survey for England and Wales (CSEW) estimated that 12.1% of adults aged 16 to 59 have experienced sexual assault (including attempts) since the age of 16, equivalent to an estimated 4 million victims (Appendix Tables 1 and 2).

    Indecent exposure or unwanted sexual touching (11.5% of adults aged 16 to 59, 3.8 million victims) was more common than rape or assault by penetration (including attempts) (3.4%, 1.1 million victims)."

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/sexualoffencesinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2017#how-prevalent-are-sexual-assaults

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    And many more other statistics. Sexual abuse is a massive problem, and the big-ticket, well-publicised cases, whether in the Muslim community, the various churches, the BBC, football, etc, etc, hide the fact that it's happening in *all* communities. And much of it will be unorganised: amongst friendship groups or families, not by external groups or strangers.

    I can understand why people want to focus their concerns on one particular type of abuser; especially as the behaviour by authorities that allowed the abuse to continue and grow is common to other cases (e.g. the church).

    But don't forget that abuse is far more common that those well-publicised cases, and the victims are not just girls, yet alone white girls.

    If abuse, yet alone sexual abuse, is bad, then society has a real problem. And that is what too many of the Muslim paedophile-obsessives are ignoring.
  • Peterborough is bad news for europhiles. Until the result is known it'll it freeze in place Jezz's ' Red Brexit ' strategy. If Labour win it will be validation of it. If Labour lose ( a mid term by-election to an 8 year old government ) it will be framed as metropolitan Labour being out of touch with ' real ' Britain.

    Europhiles least worst hope is a mildly europhile Labour candidate who wins big after a campaign focused on everything except Brexit. Peterbourgh can never be a good result for Remainers but the killing field could be levelled.

    But the bottom line is Theresea May got lucky today. Her strategy is to burn time and until Peterborough is held the Corbyn inner circle will be happy to help her do it.

    She desperately needs an extra loyal MP.

    I'd have thought she'd want the by election asap and will throw the kitchen sink at it.
  • Well, quite. The backstop backfired, fuelled by that idiot Varakar.

    If we do crash out of the EU that will be the reason why. And he'll have a lot to answer for.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 23,815

    Peterborough is bad news for europhiles. Until the result is known it'll it freeze in place Jezz's ' Red Brexit ' strategy. If Labour win it will be validation of it. If Labour lose ( a mid term by-election to an 8 year old government ) it will be framed as metropolitan Labour being out of touch with ' real ' Britain.

    Europhiles least worst hope is a mildly europhile Labour candidate who wins big after a campaign focused on everything except Brexit. Peterbourgh can never be a good result for Remainers but the killing field could be levelled.

    But the bottom line is Theresea May got lucky today. Her strategy is to burn time and until Peterborough is held the Corbyn inner circle will be happy to help her do it.

    She desperately needs an extra loyal MP.

    I'd have thought she'd want the by election asap and will throw the kitchen sink at it.
    Someone made an interesting point yesterday that Corbynite Labour appears to be picking some rather poor parliamentary candidates. I wouldn't be surprised if that was to continue with their rushed need to replace the current MP. It could be an important factor in the by-election.
  • Peterborough is bad news for europhiles. Until the result is known it'll it freeze in place Jezz's ' Red Brexit ' strategy. If Labour win it will be validation of it. If Labour lose ( a mid term by-election to an 8 year old government ) it will be framed as metropolitan Labour being out of touch with ' real ' Britain.

    Europhiles least worst hope is a mildly europhile Labour candidate who wins big after a campaign focused on everything except Brexit. Peterbourgh can never be a good result for Remainers but the killing field could be levelled.

    But the bottom line is Theresea May got lucky today. Her strategy is to burn time and until Peterborough is held the Corbyn inner circle will be happy to help her do it.

    She desperately needs an extra loyal MP.

    I'd have thought she'd want the by election asap and will throw the kitchen sink at it.
    Someone made an interesting point yesterday that Corbynite Labour appears to be picking some rather poor parliamentary candidates. I wouldn't be surprised if that was to continue with their rushed need to replace the current MP. It could be an important factor in the by-election.
  • Well, quite. The backstop backfired, fuelled by that idiot Varakar.

    If we do crash out of the EU that will be the reason why. And he'll have a lot to answer for.
    It was always obvious that the people who won't accept the deal weren't going to accept the deal. If the backstop hadn't been there they'd have latched onto something else.
  • Well, quite. The backstop backfired, fuelled by that idiot Varakar.

    If we do crash out of the EU that will be the reason why. And he'll have a lot to answer for.
    It was always obvious that the people who won't accept the deal weren't going to accept the deal. If the backstop hadn't been there they'd have latched onto something else.
    A hardcore of 20 or 30, yes, but not over 100 Tory MPs and the DUP.

    It’s a sliding scale, not an absolute.
  • fox327fox327 Posts: 13
    There is likely to be no Peterborough by-election if a General Election is called in January or February or possibly in March. There would instead be an ordinary election in a General Election in the Peterborough seat.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 22,167
    Bloody hell, I’d completely forgotten just how cold and wet and miserable is a British December!
  • Well, quite. The backstop backfired, fuelled by that idiot Varakar.

    If we do crash out of the EU that will be the reason why. And he'll have a lot to answer for.
    It was always obvious that the people who won't accept the deal weren't going to accept the deal. If the backstop hadn't been there they'd have latched onto something else.
    A hardcore of 20 or 30, yes, but not over 100 Tory MPs and the DUP.

    It’s a sliding scale, not an absolute.
    I think that estimate is too low, but even if it was right, TMay would still be short.
  • Donny43Donny43 Posts: 634
    Sandpit said:

    Bloody hell, I’d completely forgotten just how cold and wet and miserable is a British December!

    It’s not cold. Very mild. 14 degrees forecast tomorrow.
  • Donny43Donny43 Posts: 634

    Well, quite. The backstop backfired, fuelled by that idiot Varakar.

    If we do crash out of the EU that will be the reason why. And he'll have a lot to answer for.
    It was always obvious that the people who won't accept the deal weren't going to accept the deal. If the backstop hadn't been there they'd have latched onto something else.
    A hardcore of 20 or 30, yes, but not over 100 Tory MPs and the DUP.

    It’s a sliding scale, not an absolute.
    I think that estimate is too low, but even if it was right, TMay would still be short.
    There's a group of MPs who are rejecting the deal not on its merits but because there is a deal which is ten times as large as that one.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 18,584
    So, we're off the B word for the moment and what are the topics of discussion?

    Corbyn being allegedly racist and sexist.

    A Labour MP being convicted of conspiracy to pervert the course of justice.

    Slightly leavened by the Government's shambolic immigration policy.

    And there in a nutshell is why Corbyn is the wrong leader for Labour.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 22,167
    Donny43 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Bloody hell, I’d completely forgotten just how cold and wet and miserable is a British December!

    It’s not cold. Very mild. 14 degrees forecast tomorrow.
    Ah that’s not too bad. Was 6°C on approach to Brum this morning according to our pilot. It’s been half a dozen years since I was here in winter, definitely not used to donning woolly hats and thick coats before daring to venture outside.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 11,312
    Seriously scary. No wonder the Tory Party ends up with so many fruitcake MPs
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 11,199
    edited December 2018
    Donny43 said:


    There's a group of MPs who are rejecting the deal not on its merits but because there is a deal which is ten times as large as that one.

    I guess you're talking about the opposition, and this is true, but:

    1) Oppositions gonna oppose

    2) If you want them to do something other than oppose, you have to actually work with them; When TMay failed to get a majority a lot of people suggested she should be doing Brexit as a cross-party thing, but she decided she was going to lock them out and instead optimize everything for keeping her own party together instead. You could argue that if the whole thing goes to shit it's their fault for not sucking up the least bad option she gave them, but generally the voters will blame the government for things that happen when they're governing.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 14,986
    ydoethur said:

    So, we're off the B word for the moment and what are the topics of discussion?

    Corbyn being allegedly racist and sexist.

    A Labour MP being convicted of conspiracy to pervert the course of justice.

    Slightly leavened by the Government's shambolic immigration policy.

    And there in a nutshell is why Corbyn is the wrong leader for Labour.

    Quite right. Although, TBH, I don't see what's so wrong with Corbyn's sotto voce; May IS being rather silly, and her panto jokes, followed often by a smirk to her supporters I personally find irritating, and would probably find extremely so if I were on the other side of the House.
    When did she last treat any (serious) intervention by an opposition MP seriously?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 23,815

    ydoethur said:

    So, we're off the B word for the moment and what are the topics of discussion?

    Corbyn being allegedly racist and sexist.

    A Labour MP being convicted of conspiracy to pervert the course of justice.

    Slightly leavened by the Government's shambolic immigration policy.

    And there in a nutshell is why Corbyn is the wrong leader for Labour.

    Quite right. Although, TBH, I don't see what's so wrong with Corbyn's sotto voce; May IS being rather silly, and her panto jokes, followed often by a smirk to her supporters I personally find irritating, and would probably find extremely so if I were on the other side of the House.
    When did she last treat any (serious) intervention by an opposition MP seriously?
    How many of the 'panto jokes' and 'smirks' that you find irritating are in response to a serious intervention? Sadly, too often at PMQs it is stupid questions getting stupid answers: because the questions are designed not to get an answer, but to make a point.

    (And this goes for all PMs.)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 18,584
    edited December 2018

    ydoethur said:

    So, we're off the B word for the moment and what are the topics of discussion?

    Corbyn being allegedly racist and sexist.

    A Labour MP being convicted of conspiracy to pervert the course of justice.

    Slightly leavened by the Government's shambolic immigration policy.

    And there in a nutshell is why Corbyn is the wrong leader for Labour.

    Quite right. Although, TBH, I don't see what's so wrong with Corbyn's sotto voce; May IS being rather silly, and her panto jokes, followed often by a smirk to her supporters I personally find irritating, and would probably find extremely so if I were on the other side of the House.
    When did she last treat any (serious) intervention by an opposition MP seriously?
    I think the problem is you can't boast about your record on gender equality and then be caught making remarks that can reasonably be considered sexist.

    Edit - also, there is a difference between 'silly' and 'stupid'.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 9,061

    Peterborough is bad news for europhiles. Until the result is known it'll it freeze in place Jezz's ' Red Brexit ' strategy. If Labour win it will be validation of it. If Labour lose ( a mid term by-election to an 8 year old government ) it will be framed as metropolitan Labour being out of touch with ' real ' Britain.

    Europhiles least worst hope is a mildly europhile Labour candidate who wins big after a campaign focused on everything except Brexit. Peterbourgh can never be a good result for Remainers but the killing field could be levelled.

    But the bottom line is Theresea May got lucky today. Her strategy is to burn time and until Peterborough is held the Corbyn inner circle will be happy to help her do it.

    She desperately needs an extra loyal MP.

    I'd have thought she'd want the by election asap and will throw the kitchen sink at it.
    Someone made an interesting point yesterday that Corbynite Labour appears to be picking some rather poor parliamentary candidates. I wouldn't be surprised if that was to continue with their rushed need to replace the current MP. It could be an important factor in the by-election.
    I think this one of many outcomes resulting from the snap election of 2017. A rushed selection process is a poor selection process.

    I am sure that we will see a similar rushed procedure when Theresa is Defenestrated.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 11,312
    Johnson must be Corbyn's dream. The only LIKELY candidate he'd be cetain to beat.

    (Obviously he'd also beat Gove and Rees Mogg)

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 14,986
    edited December 2018

    ydoethur said:

    So, we're off the B word for the moment and what are the topics of discussion?

    Corbyn being allegedly racist and sexist.

    A Labour MP being convicted of conspiracy to pervert the course of justice.

    Slightly leavened by the Government's shambolic immigration policy.

    And there in a nutshell is why Corbyn is the wrong leader for Labour.

    Quite right. Although, TBH, I don't see what's so wrong with Corbyn's sotto voce; May IS being rather silly, and her panto jokes, followed often by a smirk to her supporters I personally find irritating, and would probably find extremely so if I were on the other side of the House.
    When did she last treat any (serious) intervention by an opposition MP seriously?
    How many of the 'panto jokes' and 'smirks' that you find irritating are in response to a serious intervention? Sadly, too often at PMQs it is stupid questions getting stupid answers: because the questions are designed not to get an answer, but to make a point.

    (And this goes for all PMs.)
    Probably about two-thirds of them! Agree about the use of PMQ's, though. A useful idea when introduced, but they've become devalued.
This discussion has been closed.