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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Paddy Ashdown (1941-2018) RIP

SystemSystem Posts: 6,666
edited December 2018 in General
imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Paddy Ashdown (1941-2018) RIP

It was announced about an hour ago that Paddy Ashdown, the first leader of Lib Dems has died at the age of 77. Two months ago he had been diagnosed with bladder cancer.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 15,190
    edited December 2018
    First. And RIP indeed. The last time I spoke to him was in a planning meeting for the 2015 GE. He was wrong, and I was worried at the time that he was wrong, but he was passionately wrong.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 36,065
    RIP Lord Ashdown.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 40,874
    edited December 2018

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    Charles said:

    What happens if you didn’t grow up on a street?

    Or if your headmaster's name is already hyphenated?
    All the better - more hyphen's is cool.
    So are fewer apostrophes :wink:
    Damn it :)

    kle4 said:

    Donny43 said:

    kle4 said:

    She should show some courage given Corbyn is advancing official party policy isn't he? An have the courage to state what she means - that she thinks the best thing would be parliament votes we remain, but since she doesn't think it will, we need a public vote. If it is the best, indeed only, option, then asking permission is not necessary.
    Another MP who doesn't want to do her job.
    In what way is she not doing her job?
    If no dst remain.
    I think it's perfectly reasonable for those MPs who want us to Remain to propose another referendum to get the countries backing. You may like her to do something else but she can't be accused of not doing her job just because she does not do what you would like.

    As a Remainer myself, I do not think we should Remain without another referendum.
    I was not the one saying she was not doing her job, but I don't think it an unreasonable accusation either. For me the key when judging the honesty of MPs when they call for a referendum is how much they bleat about the unacceptability of no deal and the deal. If both of them are horrendous and soul destroying, they cannot in my mind justify saying 'Oh, but if the people pass it by 50%+1 then that is fine'. Not after saying how bad no deal and the deal are. She may be one who is being honest, but others, who cry so much about no deal and the deal as unacceptable, and talk about a referendum because people have 'changed their minds'? They are not being very honest I think. Either they do not believe what they say about no deal and the deal, or they are just using them as excuses to do what they think needs doing. At least Adonis is clear about what he wants.

    I do support a vote because, sadly, I don't see parliament breaking the deadlock, but if someone truly believes the options already before us cannot be accepted? No, they are posturing and want the vote purely for their favoured option.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 40,874
    Never really knew Ashdown when he was leader, but he seemed to be a strong, principled figure worthy of much respect.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 7,532
    @MikeSmithson . You've misspelt the decedent's name. It isn't "Passy" Ashdown.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 40,874

    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    What happens if you didn’t grow up on a street?
    Just pretend your grandad was Jacob, you grew up in Rees Road and your headmaster was Mr Mogg.
    Often posh candidates prefer to dress down for elections, Tony Blair, Tony Benn and Nancy Mogg spring to mind.

    Double barrelled names do tend to be found at both ends of the social spectrum though, often signifying unmarried parents.
    I presume Sixtus Dominic Boniface Christopher Rees-Mogg will simplify his to Sixtus Dominic Boniface Rees-Mogg when standing in the 2040 GE.
    If he takes after his aunt Annunziata he will refuse to common up his name.
  • Passy?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 7,073
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    Charles said:

    What happens if you didn’t grow up on a street?

    Or if your headmaster's name is already hyphenated?
    All the better - more hyphen's is cool.
    So are fewer apostrophes :wink:
    Damn it :)

    kle4 said:

    Donny43 said:

    kle4 said:

    She should show some courage given Corbyn is advancing official party policy isn't he? An have the courage to state what she means - that she thinks the best thing would be parliament votes we remain, but since she doesn't think it will, we need a public vote. If it is the best, indeed only, option, then asking permission is not necessary.
    Another MP who doesn't want to do her job.
    In what way is she not doing her job?
    If no dst remain.
    I think it's perfectly reasonable for those MPs who want us to Remain to propose another referendum to get the countries backing. You may like her to do something else but she can't be accused of not doing her job just because she does not do what you would like.

    As a Remainer myself, I do not think we should Remain without another referendum.
    I was not the one saying she was not doing her job, but I don't think it an unreasonable accusation either. For me the key when judging the honesty of MPs when they call for a referendum is how much they bleat about the unacceptability of no deal and the deal. If both of them are horrendous and soul destroying, they cannot in my mind justify saying 'Oh, but if the people pass it by 50%+1 then that is fine'. Not after saying how bad no deal and the deal are. She may be one who is being honest, but others, who cry so much about no deal and the deal as unacceptable, and talk about a referendum because people have 'changed their minds'? They are not being very honest I think. Either they do not believe what they say about no deal and the deal, or they are just using them as excuses to do what they think needs doing. At least Adonis is clear about what he wants.

    I do support a vote because, sadly, I don't see parliament breaking the deadlock, but if someone truly believes the options already before us cannot be accepted? No, they are posturing and want the vote purely for their favoured option.
    I can't agree. But well done on untangling the blockquotes!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 7,073
    viewcode said:

    @MikeSmithson . You've misspelt the decedent's name. It isn't "Passy" Ashdown.

    Yes come on Mike - Do you ever re-read your thread headers before (or after) posting them? I can't think of one recently that hasn't had an irritating typo!

    (PS If I get banned for this rant-ette, I'll come back as VictorMeldrew)
  • Donny43Donny43 Posts: 634

    viewcode said:

    @MikeSmithson . You've misspelt the decedent's name. It isn't "Passy" Ashdown.

    Yes come on Mike - Do you ever re-read your thread headers before (or after) posting them? I can't think of one recently that hasn't had an irritating typo!

    (PS If I get banned for this rant-ette, I'll come back as VictorMeldrew)
    Nobody would believe that.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 7,073
    Donny43 said:

    viewcode said:

    @MikeSmithson . You've misspelt the decedent's name. It isn't "Passy" Ashdown.

    Yes come on Mike - Do you ever re-read your thread headers before (or after) posting them? I can't think of one recently that hasn't had an irritating typo!

    (PS If I get banned for this rant-ette, I'll come back as VictorMeldrew)
    Nobody would believe that.
    Haha - not bad!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 36,065

    viewcode said:

    @MikeSmithson . You've misspelt the decedent's name. It isn't "Passy" Ashdown.

    Yes come on Mike - Do you ever re-read your thread headers before (or after) posting them? I can't think of one recently that hasn't had an irritating typo!

    (PS If I get banned for this rant-ette, I'll come back as VictorMeldrew)
    It’s the sub-editor’s duty to fix this sort of thing :p.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 7,073
    RobD said:

    viewcode said:

    @MikeSmithson . You've misspelt the decedent's name. It isn't "Passy" Ashdown.

    Yes come on Mike - Do you ever re-read your thread headers before (or after) posting them? I can't think of one recently that hasn't had an irritating typo!

    (PS If I get banned for this rant-ette, I'll come back as VictorMeldrew)
    It’s the sub-editor’s duty to fix this sort of thing :p.
    Who he?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 11,173

    RobD said:

    viewcode said:

    @MikeSmithson . You've misspelt the decedent's name. It isn't "Passy" Ashdown.

    Yes come on Mike - Do you ever re-read your thread headers before (or after) posting them? I can't think of one recently that hasn't had an irritating typo!

    (PS If I get banned for this rant-ette, I'll come back as VictorMeldrew)
    It’s the sub-editor’s duty to fix this sort of thing :p.
    Who he?
    Screaming Seagulls
  • Getting txts saying what a comparison there is between Paddy Ashdown and today's shower of fools and idiots.
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 541
    IanB2 said:

    First. And RIP indeed. The last time I spoke to him was in a planning meeting for the 2015 GE. He was wrong, and I was worried at the time that he was wrong, but he was passionately wrong.

    I refused to stand in 2015 but nearly changed my mind when Paddy took charge of the campaign. However despite his efforts, with Nick Clegg and without Chris Rennard it was always going to be a hiding to nothing.
  • viewcode said:

    @MikeSmithson . You've misspelt the decedent's name. It isn't "Passy" Ashdown.

    Thanks. Fixed
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 7,073
    edited December 2018

    RobD said:

    viewcode said:

    @MikeSmithson . You've misspelt the decedent's name. It isn't "Passy" Ashdown.

    Yes come on Mike - Do you ever re-read your thread headers before (or after) posting them? I can't think of one recently that hasn't had an irritating typo!

    (PS If I get banned for this rant-ette, I'll come back as VictorMeldrew)
    It’s the sub-editor’s duty to fix this sort of thing :p.
    Who he?
    Screaming Seagulls
    Ah well, I'll cut him a bit of slack - he missed out on a grammar school education.
  • AmpfieldAndyAmpfieldAndy Posts: 1,085
    edited December 2018
    Life would be so much easier and purposeful if we could address the problems we face in the same generous spirit that we show to former adversaries who are sadly no longer with us. I’ve seen some very generous tributes to Padfy Ashdown, not least the article above and that of John Major and, whilst I didn’t know him personally, happily concur with the sentiments expressed.
  • Very sad news. Always someone worth listening to. Rip.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 9,337


    It is clear that many of Paddy Ashdown's colleagues and opponents respected him. He did have a more interesting career before he entered mainstream politics.

    I did notice something about his extra-curricula activities at school which made me smile, for all the wrong reasons. If repeated today, the lady in question would probably have her career ended at a tribunal. RIP Mr Ashdown.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 6,349
    I am not going to be hypocritical by pretending to have been a fan of Paddy Ashdown , but will reserve any critical comments for another time. For me the most striking aspect of this news is how normal it has now become to hear of the passing of people born during World War 2.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 11,249
    Thanks for sharing that, Mike. So sorry to see a British political titan depart the stage.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 10,624
    edited December 2018
    I shot his first party political broadcast after he became Lib Dem Leader in the late 80's. It was called 'Maggies Broken Britain'. JWT were the agency and the script was written by Jeremy Bullmore. We were in a 3rd floor Soho studio and Jeremy was explaining to me how important it was to get his name across

    At that precise moment the intercom went off and a voice came over the loudspeaker " We have a Mr Ashbourne in reception. Shall I send him up?"

    Anyway a very nice and modest man. I always thought his rather hectoring persona didn't suit him and the real person was very much nicer.

  • Is Jeremy’s snide reference to government policies really necessary?
  • Is Jeremy’s snide reference to government policies really necessary?
    Had same thought. Quite pretty and unnecessary.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 11,249

    Is Jeremy’s snide reference to government policies really necessary?
    Of course not. He just can’t help it.

    Teflon beginning to wear off Corbz this year.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 7,073

    Is Jeremy’s snide reference to government policies really necessary?
    Not really, but he probably does it subconsciously. I doubt Paddy would've objected to the wording though.
  • glwglw Posts: 4,822
    dr_spyn said:

    It is clear that many of Paddy Ashdown's colleagues and opponents respected him. He did have a more interesting career before he entered mainstream politics.

    Not half, he served this country long before he entered politics. I used to vote Lib Dem when Paddy was in charge, I've never wholly agreed with any political party but with Paddy in charge I was happy to vote Lib Dem as I thought he was fundamentally sound. We could do with a lot more politicians like Paddy Ashdown. It's sad news tonight.
  • What the LibDems would give for even half of what Paddy had now...
  • Chris Evans soon ending R2 show is always flawed as its all about 'me, me, me'. I'll leave it at that.
  • What the LibDems would give for even half of what Paddy had now...

    All 3 parties tbf
  • JackWJackW Posts: 13,532
    Always a danger when # close wording is used ....

    A Big Beast Goes Fart Oo Soon

    I join those who pay tribute to Paddy Ashdown. A man of personal and political courage who devoted himself to public service for almost his entire adult life. Yes he could do a good line in pompous but if that's the worst that may be said of a man then his life was well worth the living.

    RIP

  • What the LibDems would give for even half of what Paddy had now...

    Both in terms of leadership and parliamentary seats.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    Mortimer said:

    Thanks for sharing that, Mike. So sorry to see a British political titan depart the stage.

    Nicely put sir.

    Remarkable that Ashdown was a second-tier player in politics in his day.

    He had more talent, guile and intellect than the current Tory and Labour front benches combined.

    Apologies if I have damned his memory by faint praise.

    As Mortimer says, a titan. RIP.
  • I may have disagreed with Paddy Ashdown on many matters of policy but I think it is right that Mike has this obit thread for him. He was certainly one of the political giants of our age and a rare man in so far as, even if you disagreed with him on policy, you couldn't help but like and admire him as a person.

    An old friend of mine (a professional diver who got me my first job offshore) was a member of Paddy's Squadron serving in Aden during the pullout in 1967. His tales of what they did in payback for some of the atrocities done to our troops would make you hair stand on end. I am immensely glad Paddy was on our side not someone elses.
  • Did these members and activists pay attention to the 2017 manifesto? What did they think they were campaigning on? I am struck by all the Remainers on Twitter who think any position that isn’t an enhuastic endorsement of a people’s vote is absolute outrage. I’ve yet to meet anyone in real life (that includes those who voted Remain) who holds this view. I’m personally inclined towards a People’s vote though I am worried if it’s close we still have the same problems we do now. But I’m not offended by those who aren’t enthuastically pro it.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 10,945
    Sad news about PA. Would have been nice if he had got to see the pendulum turn back in his favour, as it surely will soon enough.
  • What is so outrageous about an Opposition politician voting against the government?
  • JackWJackW Posts: 13,532
    Apparently in that photo Ashdown had just been told that Mike Smithson's toupee collection had been sold to Donald Trump ....
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 7,207

    What is so outrageous about an Opposition politician voting against the government?
    If you cant see what was wrong with Corbyn's comment then there really isn't much else to say.
  • What is so outrageous about an Opposition politician voting against the government?
    I think she was referring to bring all that into an initial RIP message.
  • Floater said:
    Yeh. Two fine leaders and an idiot who was midwife to a once in a hundred year disaster.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 10,624
    Anazina said:

    Mortimer said:

    Thanks for sharing that, Mike. So sorry to see a British political titan depart the stage.

    Nicely put sir.

    Remarkable that Ashdown was a second-tier player in politics in his day.

    He had more talent, guile and intellect than the current Tory and Labour front benches combined.

    Apologies if I have damned his memory by faint praise.

    As Mortimer says, a titan. RIP.
    I don't think he was second tier. He was considered the voice of reason against a particularly unpopular Tory Party and an untrusted Labour one. He single handed made the Lib Dems a force again and he did it in quite a short space of time.

    I'd forgotten that after the PPB we shot together he sent me a very nice letter thanking me and apologising for his 'hooded eyes'!
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 7,207

    Floater said:
    Yeh. Two fine leaders and an idiot who was midwife to a once in a hundred year disaster.
    Was Brown in that picture? ...
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,287
    What a void Paddy Ashdown leaves. Steel, humanity and decency all melded together to form a formidable leader. The Lib Dem party won be able to replace him, but I'm not sure that a British politics as a whole will.

    Hard to believe he was never in Government - he should have been.

    Thoughts with all who knew him well and were close

    RIP Paddy


  • Oh FFS. "Our first honest political leader"?

    So Atlee, Callaghan, John Smith etc were all dishonest?

    Plus, Jezza may well be an out and out liar, given the wreathe and other incidents.
  • What is so outrageous about an Opposition politician voting against the government?
    I think she was referring to bring all that into an initial RIP message.
    Soubry's objection was to Corbyn rather than the message. Politics and Liberal (Democrat) politics were Ashdown's lifeblood so it is natural and fitting to recall he voted against the government of the day, just as (also in this thread) we remember his commitment to Europe and campaigning for Remain.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 40,874
    edited December 2018

    Did these members and activists pay attention to the 2017 manifesto? What did they think they were campaigning on? I am struck by all the Remainers on Twitter who think any position that isn’t an enthusiastic endorsement of a people’s vote is absolute outrage. I’ve yet to meet anyone in real life (that includes those who voted Remain) who holds this view. I’m personally inclined towards a People’s vote though I am worried if it’s close we still have the same problems we do now. But I’m not offended by those who aren’t enthusiastically pro it.
    Yes, it is a curious one. That most people, even members and activists, do not recall the 2017 manifesto in detail is not, I think, much of a surprise, but while I am surprised that even the famously stubborn Corbyn has not yet moved toward a second referendum yet, I am at a loss at how his apparent restatement of party policy post the GE has been of such massive surprise, or that it is somehow a betrayal even.

    I have been surprised that we have not seen more from those like Starmer popping up in the last week or so. Previously after Corbyn might appear lukewarm on remaining (given the policy is not to remain) Starmer or someone would pop up to emphasise that all options were on the table, which remainers would take as endorsement of remaining.

    Can Corbyn really keep this up? He must be under immense pressure to just come out for a second referendum already, and at the least allow everyone to do what they will on it (which in effect would be to campaign for remain). I guess he cannot change position until absolutely a GE has been ruled out, but there's not as much political downside to doing so as not doing it at this point. He might as well get out ahead of the calls.
  • tpfkar said:

    What a void Paddy Ashdown leaves. Steel, humanity and decency all melded together to form a formidable leader. The Lib Dem party won be able to replace him, but I'm not sure that a British politics as a whole will.

    Hard to believe he was never in Government - he should have been.

    Thoughts with all who knew him well and were close

    RIP Paddy

    He came close to government. Would have probably happened if Blair hadn't got the massive landslide in 97.

    We should not forget Charles Kennedy as well. A truly decent fellow. I miss him in these bonkers times.


  • Oh FFS. "Our first honest political leader"?

    So Atlee, Callaghan, John Smith etc were all dishonest?

    Plus, Jezza may well be an out and out liar, given the wreathe and other incidents.

    Never mind all that; since when was King's Lynn in London?


  • Oh FFS. "Our first honest political leader"?

    So Atlee, Callaghan, John Smith etc were all dishonest?

    Plus, Jezza may well be an out and out liar, given the wreathe and other incidents.

    Never mind all that; since when was King's Lynn in London?
    :lol: I hadn't noticed that.

    I detect a union fix.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 10,624
  • viewcode said:
    Browsers store tokens verifying age, so as long as the children who want to view porn do not have parents who are over 18, the system is foolproof.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 40,874



    Oh FFS. "Our first honest political leader"?

    That sort of talk is where you can spot people crossing the line from passionate supporter of a party or person into outright devotion and irrationality. When it is not enough to believe he's a fine man, a great leader, a moral authority, that the policies he espouses are sorely needed to save the nation, when you need to act as though he is the only good leader there has been.

    Yes it's just a hyperbolic supportive comment at a single event. I do not take it as evidence of every supporter of Corbyn's, nor proof that such devotion can only be found in one direction. But jeez, how can people right something like that even of someone they admire? I doubt Corbyn would agree with the sentiment expressed.

    Good night everybody and a Merry Xmas.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 26,045
    kle4 said:

    Yes, it is a curious one. That most people, even members and activists, do not recall the 2017 manifesto in detail is not, I think, much of a surprise, but while I am surprised that even the famously stubborn Corbyn has not yet moved toward a second referendum yet, I am at a loss at how his apparent restatement of party policy post the GE has been of such massive surprise, or that it is somehow a betrayal even.

    This is the strangest reason I've seen for not backing one.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 40,874
    There is a danger of over sentimentalizing our past politics and those involved in it, I am sure the historically inclined can identify some true shockers even amid generic practices. We also get the politicians we deserve based on what behaviours we keep rewarding, what extremes we encourage. But it does seem hard to avoid the thought things were indeed of a higher calibre.
  • Donny43Donny43 Posts: 634
    kle4 said:

    Did these members and activists pay attention to the 2017 manifesto? What did they think they were campaigning on? I am struck by all the Remainers on Twitter who think any position that isn’t an enthusiastic endorsement of a people’s vote is absolute outrage. I’ve yet to meet anyone in real life (that includes those who voted Remain) who holds this view. I’m personally inclined towards a People’s vote though I am worried if it’s close we still have the same problems we do now. But I’m not offended by those who aren’t enthusiastically pro it.
    Yes, it is a curious one. That most people, even members and activists, do not recall the 2017 manifesto in detail is not, I think, much of a surprise,
    The pledge to implement the 2016 referendum result wasn't exactly a "detail"...!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 40,874

    kle4 said:

    Yes, it is a curious one. That most people, even members and activists, do not recall the 2017 manifesto in detail is not, I think, much of a surprise, but while I am surprised that even the famously stubborn Corbyn has not yet moved toward a second referendum yet, I am at a loss at how his apparent restatement of party policy post the GE has been of such massive surprise, or that it is somehow a betrayal even.

    This is the strangest reason I've seen for not backing one.
    Hmm. Corbyn would be the main figure backing remain, therefore we should not try to remain at all because he would fail to persuade the public. And that;s from a supporter of his?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 10,624

    kle4 said:

    Yes, it is a curious one. That most people, even members and activists, do not recall the 2017 manifesto in detail is not, I think, much of a surprise, but while I am surprised that even the famously stubborn Corbyn has not yet moved toward a second referendum yet, I am at a loss at how his apparent restatement of party policy post the GE has been of such massive surprise, or that it is somehow a betrayal even.

    This is the strangest reason I've seen for not backing one.
    Garbage from Bastani. Wrong on every count particularly that Corbyn would be the face of Remain.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 40,874
    edited December 2018
    Donny43 said:

    kle4 said:

    Did these members and activists pay attention to the 2017 manifesto? What did they think they were campaigning on? I am struck by all the Remainers on Twitter who think any position that isn’t an enthusiastic endorsement of a people’s vote is absolute outrage. I’ve yet to meet anyone in real life (that includes those who voted Remain) who holds this view. I’m personally inclined towards a People’s vote though I am worried if it’s close we still have the same problems we do now. But I’m not offended by those who aren’t enthusiastically pro it.
    Yes, it is a curious one. That most people, even members and activists, do not recall the 2017 manifesto in detail is not, I think, much of a surprise,
    The pledge to implement the 2016 referendum result wasn't exactly a "detail"...!
    I appreciate I tend toward the long and rambly so it can be hard to glean the point I was grasping for, but the intended thrust of the remainder of that quoted paragraph was that they really shouldn't have forgotten that aspect of the manifesto even though they can be forgiven for not recalling most of it (given it was indeed hardly a mere detail), particularly since the policy since the GE has also still been to leave, making their cries of betrayal all the hollower. I can see on reread that this was not really explicit in what I had put down.
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 703
    Isn’t this picture regularly used by the left to portray all the parties as the same? Or was it by the Scot nats to scalp labour as Tory lite?
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 2,418
    kle4 said:



    There is a danger of over sentimentalizing our past politics and those involved in it, I am sure the historically inclined can identify some true shockers even amid generic practices. We also get the politicians we deserve based on what behaviours we keep rewarding, what extremes we encourage. But it does seem hard to avoid the thought things were indeed of a higher calibre.

    But, is this correct? We are where we are because we were where we were. Our past politics has produced our present politics.

    Politicians of the centre have to fail before more extreme politicians (of left or right) can gain enough support to take charge.

    It is the failures of centrist politicians of the recent past that have allowed Farage or Corbyn to find their voice and become influential.


  • Oh FFS. "Our first honest political leader"?

    So Atlee, Callaghan, John Smith etc were all dishonest?

    Plus, Jezza may well be an out and out liar, given the wreathe and other incidents.

    I'm a GMB member. As a union we usually don't display these levels of batshit stupidity - thats for Unite
  • Roger said:

    kle4 said:

    Yes, it is a curious one. That most people, even members and activists, do not recall the 2017 manifesto in detail is not, I think, much of a surprise, but while I am surprised that even the famously stubborn Corbyn has not yet moved toward a second referendum yet, I am at a loss at how his apparent restatement of party policy post the GE has been of such massive surprise, or that it is somehow a betrayal even.

    This is the strangest reason I've seen for not backing one.
    Garbage from Bastani. Wrong on every count particularly that Corbyn would be the face of Remain.
    Bastani the screaming anti-semite Kali Ma twat. Whatever he says assume the opposite is true.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 40,874

    kle4 said:



    There is a danger of over sentimentalizing our past politics and those involved in it, I am sure the historically inclined can identify some true shockers even amid generic practices. We also get the politicians we deserve based on what behaviours we keep rewarding, what extremes we encourage. But it does seem hard to avoid the thought things were indeed of a higher calibre.

    But, is this correct? We are where we are because we were where we were. Our past politics has produced our present politics.

    Hence the danger of over sentimentalisation. I'm not convinced it is correct, but I can see why we might think that, in these times.

    I hope we do have people of sufficient calibre still!
  • kle4 said:


    I hope we do have people of sufficient calibre still!

    Here is the problem. The people of sufficient calibre know that politics is compromise - as is life. You need to show real leadership by finding compromise views across a number of competing positions. Too many of our current political "leaders" are absolutists. And its a narrow border separating absolutism and despotism.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 50,139
    RIP Paddy, thoughts with his family at this time.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 1,747

    tpfkar said:

    What a void Paddy Ashdown leaves. Steel, humanity and decency all melded together to form a formidable leader. The Lib Dem party won be able to replace him, but I'm not sure that a British politics as a whole will.

    Hard to believe he was never in Government - he should have been.

    Thoughts with all who knew him well and were close

    RIP Paddy

    He came close to government. Would have probably happened if Blair hadn't got the massive landslide in 97.

    We should not forget Charles Kennedy as well. A truly decent fellow. I miss him in these bonkers times.
    He did achieve government. Just in Bosnia, not the UK!

    I will miss him. He was a major reason I joined the Lib Dems.
  • Roger said:

    kle4 said:

    Yes, it is a curious one. That most people, even members and activists, do not recall the 2017 manifesto in detail is not, I think, much of a surprise, but while I am surprised that even the famously stubborn Corbyn has not yet moved toward a second referendum yet, I am at a loss at how his apparent restatement of party policy post the GE has been of such massive surprise, or that it is somehow a betrayal even.

    This is the strangest reason I've seen for not backing one.
    Garbage from Bastani. Wrong on every count particularly that Corbyn would be the face of Remain.
    He managed to keep his head well down last time, why should it be any different next time?

    He is a leaver. End of.
  • Here we go, the Left showing true colours: 'liberal' being used as term of abuse.

    Note the small 'l'. So basically anyone who believes in individual liberty and freedoms.

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 7,532
    "How Science is Taking the Luck out of Gambling - with Adam Kucharski"
    [Royal Institution lecture, 2016]

  • Interesting interview with Paddy Ashdown on what ails politics:

    https://www.li.com/events/the-strange-death-of-liberalism
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 24,636
    viewcode said:
    So, it will be based on a cookie. Because, of course, there's no way for a mildly technical teenager to copy cookie data.

    I like to think that this is all a cunning plan to make our teenagers more technoliterate.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 15,190

    kle4 said:



    There is a danger of over sentimentalizing our past politics and those involved in it, I am sure the historically inclined can identify some true shockers even amid generic practices. We also get the politicians we deserve based on what behaviours we keep rewarding, what extremes we encourage. But it does seem hard to avoid the thought things were indeed of a higher calibre.

    But, is this correct? We are where we are because we were where we were. Our past politics has produced our present politics.

    Politicians of the centre have to fail before more extreme politicians (of left or right) can gain enough support to take charge.

    It is the failures of centrist politicians of the recent past that have allowed Farage or Corbyn to find their voice and become influential.
    Once we have chosen our party, our voting system gives us no choice or influence whatsoever over who the candidate and hence elected representative is. And the candidates themselves only make a small difference to the result, on the margin. Hence voters cannot really be blamed for the declining quality of MPs; the fault lies within the party political system.

    One of the advantages of STV is that you not only get to choose a political party but can express preferences over who you want to represent you.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 10,621
    A sad loss.
    One thing which came across strongly in his obituaries was his readiness to be persuaded to accept something he did not originally espouse himself - from his original conversion to liberalism to approving of the coalition with the Cameron’s Conservatives.
    An unusual and admirable trait in a strong leader not entirely lacking in ego.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 2,745
    edited December 2018

    Here we go, the Left showing true colours: 'liberal' being used as term of abuse.

    Note the small 'l'. So basically anyone who believes in individual liberty and freedoms.

    Do you think he was just a bit pissed off at the rich guy mocking some poor person on twitter rather than outing the entire left as hating individual liberty and freedom. In the same way when people insult the left they aren't insisting we get rid of all workers rights and dismantle the NHS. Just a hunch...

    Also it doesn't really fit with the parliamentary record given that some of Corbyns much criticised rebellions came on issues of civil liberties. One of the things I prefer about Corbyn over New Labour leadership is it is much less authoritarian.

    We saw it in the election as well where the response from the Tories to terrorist attacks was to threaten human rights. Corbyn didn't go for it because it goes against his political views. In fairness it also works for the different political tribes, the types of people who support Corbyn are more interested in civil liberties and the people who support May security and order. Each played to their base.
  • Here we go, the Left showing true colours: 'liberal' being used as term of abuse.

    Note the small 'l'. So basically anyone who believes in individual liberty and freedoms.

    Do you think he was just a bit pissed off at the rich guy mocking some poor person on twitter rather than outing the entire left as hating individual liberty and freedom. In the same way when people insult the left they aren't insisting we get rid of all workers rights and dismantle the NHS. Just a hunch...

    Also it doesn't really fit with the parliamentary record given that some of Corbyns much criticised rebellions came on issues of civil liberties. One of the things I prefer about Corbyn over New Labour leadership is it is much less authoritarian.

    We saw it in the election as well where the response from the Tories to terrorist attacks was to threaten human rights. Corbyn didn't go for it because it goes against his political views. In fairness it also works for the different political tribes, the types of people who support Corbyn are more interested in civil liberties and the people who support May security and order. Each played to their base.
    No. He was using liberal as an insult. It is the same problem as saying “stupid woman”.

    As for the tweet he was complaining about, it seemed a fair comment about one individual (not poor people in general) who, let it be noted, had already sought to mock the tweeter with a weak caricature. If you can’t take it, you shouldn’t dish it out. (Actually, you shouldn’t dish it out whether or not you can take it because it debases public discourse.)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 24,636

    kle4 said:



    There is a danger of over sentimentalizing our past politics and those involved in it, I am sure the historically inclined can identify some true shockers even amid generic practices. We also get the politicians we deserve based on what behaviours we keep rewarding, what extremes we encourage. But it does seem hard to avoid the thought things were indeed of a higher calibre.

    But, is this correct? We are where we are because we were where we were. Our past politics has produced our present politics.

    Politicians of the centre have to fail before more extreme politicians (of left or right) can gain enough support to take charge.

    It is the failures of centrist politicians of the recent past that have allowed Farage or Corbyn to find their voice and become influential.
    That's one possible explanation. Another is external factors.

    Say that - for some reason - the price of oil were to go up ten times because of a hydrocarbon eating bug that stifled production massively.

    Developed economies would have a terrible time. Rather than sending abroad 5% of GDP to pay for energy, they would probably send abroad 25%. We'd all be a lot poorer.

    And we'd probably elect people that promised an easy solution to the superbug. These people would probably be on the political extremes. ("Only by nationalising the forces of production can we overcome this" or "Multinational companies that monopolised oil extraction have led us here" or "It is the Brits working together who must overcome this challenge" or somesuch.)

    Here's the thing: countries run by politicians of all shapes and hues have seen economic growth come down sharply in the last 20 years. This should probably tell us that domestic politicians are the not the primary issue.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 2,745
    edited December 2018

    Here we go, the Left showing true colours: 'liberal' being used as term of abuse.

    Note the small 'l'. So basically anyone who believes in individual liberty and freedoms.

    Do you think he was just a bit pissed off at the rich guy mocking some poor person on twitter rather than outing the entire left as hating individual liberty and freedom. In the same way when people insult the left they aren't insisting we get rid of all workers rights and dismantle the NHS. Just a hunch...

    Also it doesn't really fit with the parliamentary record given that some of Corbyns much criticised rebellions came on issues of civil liberties. One of the things I prefer about Corbyn over New Labour leadership is it is much less authoritarian.

    We saw it in the election as well where the response from the Tories to terrorist attacks was to threaten human rights. Corbyn didn't go for it because it goes against his political views. In fairness it also works for the different political tribes, the types of people who support Corbyn are more interested in civil liberties and the people who support May security and order. Each played to their base.
    No. He was using liberal as an insult. It is the same problem as saying “stupid woman”.

    As for the tweet he was complaining about, it seemed a fair comment about one individual (not poor people in general) who, let it be noted, had already sought to mock the tweeter with a weak caricature. If you can’t take it, you shouldn’t dish it out. (Actually, you shouldn’t dish it out whether or not you can take it because it debases public discourse.)
    Not sure what you mean by no?

    It was a long sentence with several parts. I'm going to assume you didn't mean the outing the entire left as hating individual liberty and freedom.

    So you don't think he is pissed off at a rich guy mocking some poor person on Twitter... because I would certainly say that was true.

    He could have meant a number of things by including liberal, it probably doesn't indicate a love for the term but it seems unlikely he was declaring himself as against individual liberty and freedom. Although it can also be like the term stupid people, which doesn't actually indicate you hate everyone who is a person... just a descriptive term of the people (or person in this case) you are angry at.

  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 2,745
    RIP Paddy Ashdown. Preferred him usually to the Labour and Tory leader of the time.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 2,745
    Roger said:

    kle4 said:

    Yes, it is a curious one. That most people, even members and activists, do not recall the 2017 manifesto in detail is not, I think, much of a surprise, but while I am surprised that even the famously stubborn Corbyn has not yet moved toward a second referendum yet, I am at a loss at how his apparent restatement of party policy post the GE has been of such massive surprise, or that it is somehow a betrayal even.

    This is the strangest reason I've seen for not backing one.
    Garbage from Bastani. Wrong on every count particularly that Corbyn would be the face of Remain.
    Didn't somebody put up something the other day about Corbyn being the most popular figure linked to remain?

    Ideally if we did get to a second referendum Corbyn could campaign separately from others not on the left. I think it was Stephen Bush talking about the problems of conflicting messages from the remain camp.

    The other thing, which Bastani is probably right on is the attraction of using a second referendum as an opportunity to take Corbyn down would be too much for some to resist.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 2,745

    Roger said:

    kle4 said:

    Yes, it is a curious one. That most people, even members and activists, do not recall the 2017 manifesto in detail is not, I think, much of a surprise, but while I am surprised that even the famously stubborn Corbyn has not yet moved toward a second referendum yet, I am at a loss at how his apparent restatement of party policy post the GE has been of such massive surprise, or that it is somehow a betrayal even.

    This is the strangest reason I've seen for not backing one.
    Garbage from Bastani. Wrong on every count particularly that Corbyn would be the face of Remain.
    Bastani the screaming anti-semite Kali Ma twat. Whatever he says assume the opposite is true.
    I realise left = teh evil because we have disgraced the memory of Tony, hallowed be his name, forever shall it be remembered in the halls of progress.

    But he has a Jewish grandmother, disagreeing with your political views does not make him an anti semite.

  • No. He was using liberal as an insult. It is the same problem as saying “stupid woman”.

    As for the tweet he was complaining about, it seemed a fair comment about one individual (not poor people in general) who, let it be noted, had already sought to mock the tweeter with a weak caricature. If you can’t take it, you shouldn’t dish it out. (Actually, you shouldn’t dish it out whether or not you can take it because it debases public discourse.)

    Not sure what you mean by no?

    It was a long sentence with several parts. I'm going to assume you didn't mean the outing the entire left as hating individual liberty and freedom.

    So you don't think he is pissed off at a rich guy mocking some poor person on Twitter... because I would certainly say that was true.

    He could have meant a number of things by including liberal, it probably doesn't indicate a love for the term but it seems unlikely he was declaring himself as against individual liberty and freedom. Although it can also be like the term stupid people, which doesn't actually indicate you hate everyone in the group people... just a descriptive term of the people (or person in this case) you are angry at.

    He was using “liberal” as an insult. At least you’ve nearly got as far as acknowledging that. Why would he be angry at a group? Only one individual wrote this.

    I don’t think he was pissed off at all. He was affecting to be pissed off, which is a very different matter.

    Why was he affecting to be pissed off? Because the tweeter had been mean to an online chum. Was the tweeter mocking the poor in general? No, the tweeter was mocking one online individual (who may or may not be the person actually named in the account) who had aggressively mocked him personally, suggesting that she was a fraud.

    The hard left has a problem that it generalises the particular, as in this case, and then seeks to particularise the general, as you have sought to do on Liam Young’s behalf. The simpler explanation is that Liam Young despised liberal values to the point of considering liberal an all-purpose insult. Your feeble attempt at throwing up chaff merely reinforces the point.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 2,745


    Not sure what you mean by no?

    It was a long sentence with several parts. I'm going to assume you didn't mean the outing the entire left as hating individual liberty and freedom.

    So you don't think he is pissed off at a rich guy mocking some poor person on Twitter... because I would certainly say that was true.

    He could have meant a number of things by including liberal, it probably doesn't indicate a love for the term but it seems unlikely he was declaring himself as against individual liberty and freedom. Although it can also be like the term stupid people, which doesn't actually indicate you hate everyone in the group people... just a descriptive term of the people (or person in this case) you are angry at.

    He was using “liberal” as an insult. At least you’ve nearly got as far as acknowledging that. Why would he be angry at a group? Only one individual wrote this.

    I don’t think he was pissed off at all. He was affecting to be pissed off, which is a very different matter.

    Why was he affecting to be pissed off? Because the tweeter had been mean to an online chum. Was the tweeter mocking the poor in general? No, the tweeter was mocking one online individual (who may or may not be the person actually named in the account) who had aggressively mocked him personally, suggesting that she was a fraud.

    The hard left has a problem that it generalises the particular, as in this case, and then seeks to particularise the general, as you have sought to do on Liam Young’s behalf. The simpler explanation is that Liam Young despised liberal values to the point of considering liberal an all-purpose insult. Your feeble attempt at throwing up chaff merely reinforces the point.
    TBH I was pretty pissed off at JO'B's tweet as well. A rich snob looking down and thinking he is better than those less privileged than him, sums up his entire philosophy. That you cannot understand that yourself is a mistake on your part IMO.

    It is probably the problem with a large part of the remain 'leadership' (or spokespeople), some of them came from lower down but far too many have very comfortable lives and look down on the people they are supposed to serve.


    Considering Owen Jones has met her it seems pretty legitimate, I suppose he could be in on some kind of conspiracy that the right wingers on Twitter allege but it seems a bit far fetched.

    You've gone off into accusing the hard left of generalising...

    Before we ignore the obvious problem with accusing any large group of generalising you do realise I was disagreeing with someone who generalised the left to begin with, which is the post your responded to.

    The simplest explanation is the most likely, James was being an offensive and got called out on it.


  • TBH I was pretty pissed off at JO'B's tweet as well. A rich snob looking down and thinking he is better than those less privileged than him, sums up his entire philosophy. That you cannot understand that yourself is a mistake on your part IMO.

    It is probably the problem with a large part of the remain 'leadership' (or spokespeople), some of them came from lower down but far too many have very comfortable lives and look down on the people they are supposed to serve.


    Considering Owen Jones has met her it seems pretty legitimate, I suppose he could be in on some kind of conspiracy that the right wingers on Twitter allege but it seems a bit far fetched.

    You've gone off into accusing the hard left of generalising...

    Before we ignore the obvious problem with accusing any large group of generalising you do realise I was disagreeing with someone who generalised the left to begin with, which is the post your responded to.

    The simplest explanation is the most likely, James was being an offensive and got called out on it.

    I don’t believe you can’t read so I have to conclude you are being deliberately dishonest.

    James O’Brien is suggesting that “Rachael Swindon” is a fraud. He’s not looking down on her because she’s poor, he’s suggesting that she is duping others into subsidising her lifestyle. It takes some pretty hard work to affect to misunderstand what he was saying but, credit to the hard left, you've put the shift in.

    Meanwhile, you still haven’t explained why “liberal” is an all-purpose insult.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,091

    Did these members and activists pay attention to the 2017 manifesto? What did they think they were campaigning on? I am struck by all the Remainers on Twitter who think any position that isn’t an enhuastic endorsement of a people’s vote is absolute outrage. I’ve yet to meet anyone in real life (that includes those who voted Remain) who holds this view. I’m personally inclined towards a People’s vote though I am worried if it’s close we still have the same problems we do now. But I’m not offended by those who aren’t enthuastically pro it.
    In March 1975 Margaret Thatcher described referendum as “a device of dictators and demagogues”. Thatcher was quoting Clement Attlee who noticed that Hitler, Mussolini and Napoleon III used referendum to legitimise decisions they had made. If we just look at referendum before Wordl War II we can see how Mussolini and Hitler used them to their advantage.

    There is no justification for a referendum. 88% of the electorate voted for parties who did not have proposals for a third EU referendum in their manifestos. General election, Yes; Referendum, No.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 2,745
    edited December 2018



    TBH I was pretty pissed off at JO'B's tweet as well. A rich snob looking down and thinking he is better than those less privileged than him, sums up his entire philosophy. That you cannot understand that yourself is a mistake on your part IMO.

    It is probably the problem with a large part of the remain 'leadership' (or spokespeople), some of them came from lower down but far too many have very comfortable lives and look down on the people they are supposed to serve.


    Considering Owen Jones has met her it seems pretty legitimate, I suppose he could be in on some kind of conspiracy that the right wingers on Twitter allege but it seems a bit far fetched.

    You've gone off into accusing the hard left of generalising...

    Before we ignore the obvious problem with accusing any large group of generalising you do realise I was disagreeing with someone who generalised the left to begin with, which is the post your responded to.

    The simplest explanation is the most likely, James was being an offensive and got called out on it.

    I don’t believe you can’t read so I have to conclude you are being deliberately dishonest.

    James O’Brien is suggesting that “Rachael Swindon” is a fraud. He’s not looking down on her because she’s poor, he’s suggesting that she is duping others into subsidising her lifestyle. It takes some pretty hard work to affect to misunderstand what he was saying but, credit to the hard left, you've put the shift in.

    Meanwhile, you still haven’t explained why “liberal” is an all-purpose insult.
    Same reason why left is. Although like I pointed out, as with people it can be added without implying a hatred for that group.

    Or for another example calling someone a stupid idiot doesn't sound quite as good as calling someone a stupid little idiot, the little is just in there for effect rather than implying a hatred of little people. I've strung an insult together about somebody with little in there who was taller than me.

    He's mocking her for asking for money, scrounging as he so affectionately puts it and accuses her of being a fraud with very little proof apart from his own conspiracies. I don't usually mind James O'Brien despite his anti Corbyn angle but he is being a really nasty piece of work there.


    I suppose it is easier to dismiss your opponents and those who vote for them as bad people, stupid and tricked than face up to your own sides intellectual deficit and complete lack of appeal.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 14,130

    Did these members and activists pay attention to the 2017 manifesto? What did they think they were campaigning on? I am struck by all the Remainers on Twitter who think any position that isn’t an enhuastic endorsement of a people’s vote is absolute outrage. I’ve yet to meet anyone in real life (that includes those who voted Remain) who holds this view. I’m personally inclined towards a People’s vote though I am worried if it’s close we still have the same problems we do now. But I’m not offended by those who aren’t enthuastically pro it.
    In March 1975 Margaret Thatcher described referendum as “a device of dictators and demagogues”. Thatcher was quoting Clement Attlee who noticed that Hitler, Mussolini and Napoleon III used referendum to legitimise decisions they had made. If we just look at referendum before Wordl War II we can see how Mussolini and Hitler used them to their advantage.

    There is no justification for a referendum. 88% of the electorate voted for parties who did not have proposals for a third EU referendum in their manifestos. General election, Yes; Referendum, No.
    Agree. There are a lot of things amiss at the moment in UK; Brexit may be by far the most important, but one can only describe, for example, health policy management and the implementation and rollout of Universal Credit as matters which are going seriously wrong.
This discussion has been closed.