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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Theresa May is more popular through the first thirty months of

SystemSystem Posts: 6,666
edited January 6 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Theresa May is more popular through the first thirty months of her tenure than Thatcher and Cameron. An analysis into Prime Ministerial satisfaction ratings

Prime Ministers are, of course, towering figures in public life. Pillars of UK society that are respected and loved in equal measure and enter government with the goodwill of the nation behind them. Then with fairly predictable regularity they slip from the hearts of the public and in some cases end up getting burnt in effigy.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • RobDRobD Posts: 37,527
    First? :o
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 23,584
    Second
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 8,806
    @corporeal

    When I said I was looking forward to your next article, I didn't realise it would be so fast! Thank you!
  • viewcode said:

    @corporeal

    When I said I was looking forward to your next article, I didn't realise it would be so fast! Thank you!

    Part three is out this evening and like the two other two it is amazing.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 8,806

    viewcode said:

    @corporeal

    When I said I was looking forward to your next article, I didn't realise it would be so fast! Thank you!

    Part three is out this evening and like the two other two it is amazing.
    Good to know.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 18,631

    viewcode said:

    @corporeal

    When I said I was looking forward to your next article, I didn't realise it would be so fast! Thank you!

    Part three is out this evening and like the two other two it is amazing.
    Ugh, Mr Eagles.

    You need to get Grammarly...

    As for its relative awesomeness, can we please decide this by AV?
  • ydoethur said:

    viewcode said:

    @corporeal

    When I said I was looking forward to your next article, I didn't realise it would be so fast! Thank you!

    Part three is out this evening and like the two other two it is amazing.
    Ugh, Mr Eagles.

    You need to get Grammarly...

    As for its relative awesomeness, can we please decide this by AV?
    I woke up at 5am on Saturday, went to bed at 3.30am this morning and met the EDL yesterday, I'm a bit tired and I can blame auto-correct.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 8,685
    edited January 6

    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:

    Barnesian said:

    FF43 said:

    Barnesian said:

    kinabalu said:

    War is over (if you want it).

    A thoughtful contribution.
    Indeed. And I agree with Mr K. The years of negotiations will also give opportunity for thought.
    I'm afraid I don't agree with Mr Kinabalu. The Deal means either rapid capitulation to the Vassal State, which I don't think suits the UK - it's not Norway - or FTA death by a thousand cuts, which comes to the same thing ultimately. Brexit will dominate for the foreseeable. Remaining is the only outcome where there's nothing further to negotiate, even if a part of the population rejects it outright.
    Rapid capitulation to the Vassal State is all we deserve. I'm sure we'll be well looked after within the warm embrace of the EU rather than shivering in the cold outside.

    Though I found Mr Kinabalu's contribution thoughtful and interesting, it didn't convince me to vote for The Deal. I'm still a Remainer.
    Ik.
    We have been a vassal state for years. It is only the Eurofanatics who can't see that. The pretence of control was simply a means to keep us onboard with the project and in the end a majority of the public saw that. Including many Remain voters who, if polls and vox pops are to be believed only voted Remain for fear of something worse.

    If nothing else the Brexit process has highlighted this so that only the genuine fanatics can be under an delusions about our influence within the EU.

    What has been imposed on us that we did not want imposed? I am sure there must have been stuff - really blindingly obvious, big ticket stuff that our government fought tooth and nail to prevent but just couldn't - but I cannot for the life of me think of what it was.

    The export ban on beef springs to mind.

    Decent call - though I am not sure that us not being in the EU would have had any effect on that.

    The EU eventually forced France to lift its ban on British beef. The other countries were already compliant. The EU would have kept its ban just as the US did, if we weren't members. Definitely an instance where membership was beneficial.

    On topic, sort of, with Corporal's excellent spreadsheet mini-series, Thatcher was far less popular than made out to be in hindsight. She benefited from a divided opposition.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 3,081
    It is fascinating, isn't it? Blair, what a phenom. A politician with sustained popularity ratings equal to that of apple crumble and custard on a winter's afternoon. Amazing. Will we ever see the like again?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 18,631

    ydoethur said:

    viewcode said:

    @corporeal

    When I said I was looking forward to your next article, I didn't realise it would be so fast! Thank you!

    Part three is out this evening and like the two other two it is amazing.
    Ugh, Mr Eagles.

    You need to get Grammarly...

    As for its relative awesomeness, can we please decide this by AV?
    I woke up at 5am on Saturday, went to bed at 3.30am this morning and met the EDL yesterday, I'm a bit tired and I can blame auto-correct.
    What did we used to blame for our errors before we had auto-correct?
  • AmpfieldAndyAmpfieldAndy Posts: 1,445
    edited January 6
    May didn’t inherit the problems that Thatcher did which is just as well because she is a isn’t fit to deal with the issues she does have to deal with. Cameron was saddled with Coalition partners and most people had worked out after 30 months that the Big Society was totally meaningless.

    Being relatively unpopular doesn’t have any correlation to electability. Her successor may fare better or worse but the Tories are heading for opposition against the most incompetent Labour Party since Foot’s with May. At least with someone new leading, they have a chance of becoming electable again.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    viewcode said:

    @corporeal

    When I said I was looking forward to your next article, I didn't realise it would be so fast! Thank you!

    Part three is out this evening and like the two other two it is amazing.
    Ugh, Mr Eagles.

    You need to get Grammarly...

    As for its relative awesomeness, can we please decide this by AV?
    I woke up at 5am on Saturday, went to bed at 3.30am this morning and met the EDL yesterday, I'm a bit tired and I can blame auto-correct.
    What did we used to blame for our errors before we had auto-correct?
    My friends blamed alcohol, I never made mistakes prior to auto-correct, honestly, me making mistakes, that's unpossible.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 18,631
    FF43 said:


    The EU eventually forced France to lift its ban on British beef. The other countries were already compliant. The EU would have kept its ban just as the US did, if we weren't members. Definitely an instance where membership was beneficial.

    On topic, sort of, with Corporal's excellent spreadsheet mini-series, Thatcher was far less popular than made out to be in hindsight. She benefited from a divided opposition.

    No, it didn't 'force France to lift its ban on British beef.' It allowed France to keep its ban in place for seven years AFTER the ban had been revoked, despite numerous rulings from the CJEU that it should be lifted. And it has never forced France to pay the £2.1 billion in fines it should have had for that breach of the rules.

    As for the suggestion that if we had not been in the EU there would have been somebody to impose a blanket ban on the export of all British beef - what are you smoking?

    It was not only not beneficial, it was a disaster, a criminal enterprise put forward by certain elements that shall be nameless to exploit a public health emergency for their personal gain - and people died as a result.

    That is not to say the EU is all bad - if it was, I wouldn't have voted remain - just to remind people that there are times when it got it appallingly badly wrong and showed itself in the darkest of lights.

    Of course, if we had behaved like France and ignored the EU when it didn't suit us, we would not be about to leave. That's the irony.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 8,603
    edited January 6

    ydoethur said:

    viewcode said:

    @corporeal

    When I said I was looking forward to your next article, I didn't realise it would be so fast! Thank you!

    Part three is out this evening and like the two other two it is amazing.
    Ugh, Mr Eagles.

    You need to get Grammarly...

    As for its relative awesomeness, can we please decide this by AV?
    I woke up at 5am on Saturday, went to bed at 3.30am this morning and met the EDL yesterday, I'm a bit tired and I can blame auto-correct.
    Write, post, read, edit. It works very time.

    Edit: It works every time. :wink:
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 18,631

    ydoethur said:

    viewcode said:

    @corporeal

    When I said I was looking forward to your next article, I didn't realise it would be so fast! Thank you!

    Part three is out this evening and like the two other two it is amazing.
    Ugh, Mr Eagles.

    You need to get Grammarly...

    As for its relative awesomeness, can we please decide this by AV?
    I woke up at 5am on Saturday, went to bed at 3.30am this morning and met the EDL yesterday, I'm a bit tired and I can blame auto-correct.
    Write, post, read, edit. It works very time.

    Edit: It works every time. :wink:
    Boom boom!
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 27,781
    kinabalu said:

    It is fascinating, isn't it? Blair, what a phenom. A politician with sustained popularity ratings equal to that of apple crumble and custard on a winter's afternoon. Amazing. Will we ever see the like again?

    Wildly popular once, now widely despised.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 8,685
    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:


    The EU eventually forced France to lift its ban on British beef. The other countries were already compliant. The EU would have kept its ban just as the US did, if we weren't members. Definitely an instance where membership was beneficial.

    On topic, sort of, with Corporal's excellent spreadsheet mini-series, Thatcher was far less popular than made out to be in hindsight. She benefited from a divided opposition.

    No, it didn't 'force France to lift its ban on British beef.' It allowed France to keep its ban in place for seven years AFTER the ban had been revoked, despite numerous rulings from the CJEU that it should be lifted. And it has never forced France to pay the £2.1 billion in fines it should have had for that breach of the rules.

    As for the suggestion that if we had not been in the EU there would have been somebody to impose a blanket ban on the export of all British beef - what are you smoking?

    It was not only not beneficial, it was a disaster, a criminal enterprise put forward by certain elements that shall be nameless to exploit a public health emergency for their personal gain - and people died as a result.

    That is not to say the EU is all bad - if it was, I wouldn't have voted remain - just to remind people that there are times when it got it appallingly badly wrong and showed itself in the darkest of lights.

    Of course, if we had behaved like France and ignored the EU when it didn't suit us, we would not be about to leave. That's the irony.
    Rightly or wrongly, consumers found the idea of eating mad cows abhorrent. All the bans on British beef were driven by consumer pressure. The EU lifted its ban on British beef after three years only because the UK was a member and could bring pressure to bear. Otherwise it would have left its ban in place - as the Americans did for twenty years!
  • Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    It is fascinating, isn't it? Blair, what a phenom. A politician with sustained popularity ratings equal to that of apple crumble and custard on a winter's afternoon. Amazing. Will we ever see the like again?

    Wildly popular once, now widely despised.
    Sounds like Brexit after No Deal.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 15,007
    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    It is fascinating, isn't it? Blair, what a phenom. A politician with sustained popularity ratings equal to that of apple crumble and custard on a winter's afternoon. Amazing. Will we ever see the like again?

    Wildly popular once, now widely despised.
    Just shows; one major error and that's that. Wonder how May will be regarded in a few years time.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 8,445

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    It is fascinating, isn't it? Blair, what a phenom. A politician with sustained popularity ratings equal to that of apple crumble and custard on a winter's afternoon. Amazing. Will we ever see the like again?

    Wildly popular once, now widely despised.
    Just shows; one major error and that's that. Wonder how May will be regarded in a few years time.
    Airbrushed out, same as Major.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 4,339
    kinabalu said:

    It is fascinating, isn't it? Blair, what a phenom. A politician with sustained popularity ratings equal to that of apple crumble and custard on a winter's afternoon. Amazing. Will we ever see the like again?

    No, there will never be another Tone. The stars aligned amazingly in his favour:

    End of an unprecedentedly long, yet often divisive, era of Tory rule.

    Tories rancorous and divided over Maggie's ousting.

    Tories dubious about or downright hostile to her wishy washy replacement.

    Sexual and financial Tory sleaze (real or imagined) all around.

    Tory MPs popping off at regular intervals, providing lots of juicy by-elections to feed the narrative.

    The dramatic calamity of Black Wednesday.

    A feverishly hostile press consumed with blood lust.

    A government with a tiny, or non-existent, majority held to ransom by fringe euro-sceptic fanatics.

    The British Left in retreat, allowing Tone to concentrate fully on his right flank.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 23,584
    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:


    The EU eventually forced France to lift its ban on British beef. The other countries were already compliant. The EU would have kept its ban just as the US did, if we weren't members. Definitely an instance where membership was beneficial.

    On topic, sort of, with Corporal's excellent spreadsheet mini-series, Thatcher was far less popular than made out to be in hindsight. She benefited from a divided opposition.

    No, it didn't 'force France to lift its ban on British beef.' It allowed France to keep its ban in place for seven years AFTER the ban had been revoked, despite numerous rulings from the CJEU that it should be lifted. And it has never forced France to pay the £2.1 billion in fines it should have had for that breach of the rules.

    As for the suggestion that if we had not been in the EU there would have been somebody to impose a blanket ban on the export of all British beef - what are you smoking?

    It was not only not beneficial, it was a disaster, a criminal enterprise put forward by certain elements that shall be nameless to exploit a public health emergency for their personal gain - and people died as a result.

    That is not to say the EU is all bad - if it was, I wouldn't have voted remain - just to remind people that there are times when it got it appallingly badly wrong and showed itself in the darkest of lights.

    Of course, if we had behaved like France and ignored the EU when it didn't suit us, we would not be about to leave. That's the irony.
    Rightly or wrongly, consumers found the idea of eating mad cows abhorrent. All the bans on British beef were driven by consumer pressure. The EU lifted its ban on British beef after three years only because the UK was a member and could bring pressure to bear. Otherwise it would have left its ban in place - as the Americans did for twenty years!
    So we should be a member because otherwise corrupt and illegal things will be done to hurt us?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 16,676
    edited January 6
    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:


    The EU eventually forced France to lift its ban on British beef. The other countries were already compliant. The EU would have kept its ban just as the US did, if we weren't members. Definitely an instance where membership was beneficial.

    On topic, sort of, with Corporal's excellent spreadsheet mini-series, Thatcher was far less popular than made out to be in hindsight. She benefited from a divided opposition.

    No, it didn't 'force France to lift its ban on British beef.' It allowed France to keep its ban in place for seven years AFTER the ban had been revoked, despite numerous rulings from the CJEU that it should be lifted. And it has never forced France to pay the £2.1 billion in fines it should have had for that breach of the rules.

    As for the suggestion that if we had not been in the EU there would have been somebody to impose a blanket ban on the export of all British beef - what are you smoking?

    It was not only not beneficial, it was a disaster, a criminal enterprise put forward by certain elements that shall be nameless to exploit a public health emergency for their personal gain - and people died as a result.

    That is not to say the EU is all bad - if it was, I wouldn't have voted remain - just to remind people that there are times when it got it appallingly badly wrong and showed itself in the darkest of lights.

    Of course, if we had behaved like France and ignored the EU when it didn't suit us, we would not be about to leave. That's the irony.
    Rightly or wrongly, consumers found the idea of eating mad cows abhorrent. All the bans on British beef were driven by consumer pressure. The EU lifted its ban on British beef after three years only because the UK was a member and could bring pressure to bear. Otherwise it would have left its ban in place - as the Americans did for twenty years!
    So we should be a member because otherwise corrupt and illegal things will be done to hurt us?
    He's almost admitting that the EU is no more than a dressed up protection racket. Surprising honesty from the most EUfanatic member on here.
  • kinabalu said:

    It is fascinating, isn't it? Blair, what a phenom. A politician with sustained popularity ratings equal to that of apple crumble and custard on a winter's afternoon. Amazing. Will we ever see the like again?

    No, there will never be another Tone. The stars aligned amazingly in his favour:

    End of an unprecedentedly long, yet often divisive, era of Tory rule.

    Tories rancorous and divided over Maggie's ousting.

    Tories dubious about or downright hostile to her wishy washy replacement.

    Sexual and financial Tory sleaze (real or imagined) all around.

    Tory MPs popping off at regular intervals, providing lots of juicy by-elections to feed the narrative.

    The dramatic calamity of Black Wednesday.

    A feverishly hostile press consumed with blood lust.

    A government with a tiny, or non-existent, majority held to ransom by fringe euro-sceptic fanatics.

    The British Left in retreat, allowing Tone to concentrate fully on his right flank.
    If you could ignore Iraq - and that is some caveat - he was actually a pretty decent PM.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 8,685
    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:


    The EU eventually forced France to lift its ban on British beef. The other countries were already compliant. The EU would have kept its ban just as the US did, if we weren't members. Definitely an instance where membership was beneficial.

    On topic, sort of, with Corporal's excellent spreadsheet mini-series, Thatcher was far less popular than made out to be in hindsight. She benefited from a divided opposition.

    No, it didn't 'force France to lift its ban on British beef.' It allowed France to keep its ban in place for seven years AFTER the ban had been revoked, despite numerous rulings from the CJEU that it should be lifted. And it has never forced France to pay the £2.1 billion in fines it should have had for that breach of the rules.

    As for the suggestion that if we had not been in the EU there would have been somebody to impose a blanket ban on the export of all British beef - what are you smoking?

    It was not only not beneficial, it was a disaster, a criminal enterprise put forward by certain elements that shall be nameless to exploit a public health emergency for their personal gain - and people died as a result.

    That is not to say the EU is all bad - if it was, I wouldn't have voted remain - just to remind people that there are times when it got it appallingly badly wrong and showed itself in the darkest of lights.

    Of course, if we had behaved like France and ignored the EU when it didn't suit us, we would not be about to leave. That's the irony.
    Rightly or wrongly, consumers found the idea of eating mad cows abhorrent. All the bans on British beef were driven by consumer pressure. The EU lifted its ban on British beef after three years only because the UK was a member and could bring pressure to bear. Otherwise it would have left its ban in place - as the Americans did for twenty years!
    So we should be a member because otherwise corrupt and illegal things will be done to hurt us?
    I don't get your point. I am simply pointing out, as a matter of fact, that the EU lifted its ban on British beef far earlier than it would have done otherwise and well before other administrations. Unfortunately British beef was seen worldwide as poison.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,536
    viewcode said:

    @corporeal

    When I said I was looking forward to your next article, I didn't realise it would be so fast! Thank you!

    I do it all for my public.

    For additional nerdery there's some extra charts on my twitter account. Ones that weren't pretty enough for the article.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,536
    Thanks as ever to TSE for his editing and overseeing services.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 8,603
    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:


    The EU eventually forced France to lift its ban on British beef. The other countries were already compliant. The EU would have kept its ban just as the US did, if we weren't members. Definitely an instance where membership was beneficial.

    On topic, sort of, with Corporal's excellent spreadsheet mini-series, Thatcher was far less popular than made out to be in hindsight. She benefited from a divided opposition.

    No, it didn't 'force France to lift its ban on British beef.' It allowed France to keep its ban in place for seven years AFTER the ban had been revoked, despite numerous rulings from the CJEU that it should be lifted. And it has never forced France to pay the £2.1 billion in fines it should have had for that breach of the rules.

    As for the suggestion that if we had not been in the EU there would have been somebody to impose a blanket ban on the export of all British beef - what are you smoking?

    It was not only not beneficial, it was a disaster, a criminal enterprise put forward by certain elements that shall be nameless to exploit a public health emergency for their personal gain - and people died as a result.

    That is not to say the EU is all bad - if it was, I wouldn't have voted remain - just to remind people that there are times when it got it appallingly badly wrong and showed itself in the darkest of lights.

    Of course, if we had behaved like France and ignored the EU when it didn't suit us, we would not be about to leave. That's the irony.
    Rightly or wrongly, consumers found the idea of eating mad cows abhorrent. All the bans on British beef were driven by consumer pressure. The EU lifted its ban on British beef after three years only because the UK was a member and could bring pressure to bear. Otherwise it would have left its ban in place - as the Americans did for twenty years!
    So we should be a member because otherwise corrupt and illegal things will be done to hurt us?
    He's almost admitting that the EU is no more than a dressed up protection racket. Surprising honesty from the most EUfanatic member on here.
    Jeez, you guys!

    A club supports its members. If you want to call that a protection racket go ahead. But then NATO is a protection racket too. The UK is a protection racket.

    The Conservative party is a protection racket... (hang on, you might have a point on that one.)
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 8,806
    corporeal said:

    viewcode said:

    @corporeal

    When I said I was looking forward to your next article, I didn't realise it would be so fast! Thank you!

    I do it all for my public.

    For additional nerdery there's some extra charts on my twitter account. Ones that weren't pretty enough for the article.
    Linky, please?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 23,072
    I was beginning to wobble in my prediction that we wont in the end actually leave the EU.

    Rentoul has cheered me up no end:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-referendum-final-say-leave-split-remain-a8713046.html
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 3,695

    kinabalu said:

    It is fascinating, isn't it? Blair, what a phenom. A politician with sustained popularity ratings equal to that of apple crumble and custard on a winter's afternoon. Amazing. Will we ever see the like again?

    No, there will never be another Tone. The stars aligned amazingly in his favour:

    End of an unprecedentedly long, yet often divisive, era of Tory rule.

    Tories rancorous and divided over Maggie's ousting.

    Tories dubious about or downright hostile to her wishy washy replacement.

    Sexual and financial Tory sleaze (real or imagined) all around.

    Tory MPs popping off at regular intervals, providing lots of juicy by-elections to feed the narrative.

    The dramatic calamity of Black Wednesday.

    A feverishly hostile press consumed with blood lust.

    A government with a tiny, or non-existent, majority held to ransom by fringe euro-sceptic fanatics.

    The British Left in retreat, allowing Tone to concentrate fully on his right flank.
    If you could ignore Iraq - and that is some caveat - he was actually a pretty decent PM.
    True best PM in my lifetime .
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 8,603

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    It is fascinating, isn't it? Blair, what a phenom. A politician with sustained popularity ratings equal to that of apple crumble and custard on a winter's afternoon. Amazing. Will we ever see the like again?

    Wildly popular once, now widely despised.
    Sounds like Brexit after No Deal.
    Except Brexit was never wildly popular of course.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,536
    viewcode said:

    corporeal said:

    viewcode said:

    @corporeal

    When I said I was looking forward to your next article, I didn't realise it would be so fast! Thank you!

    I do it all for my public.

    For additional nerdery there's some extra charts on my twitter account. Ones that weren't pretty enough for the article.
    Linky, please?
    https://twitter.com/PBcorporeal
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 4,907
    edited January 6
    Betfair continues to suggest almost ZERO chance of leaving on 29 March with No Deal.

    Look at the two markets:

    Will UK leave by 29 March? No: 1.61 Back, 1,65 Lay

    When will Commons pass Brexit vote? Not before 30 March: 1.56 Back, 1.6 Lay

    So odds are within a whisker of identical.

    Assuming that if the vote passes we 100% do leave (seems reasonable) then if vote doesn't pass then there is only a miniscule chance (literally about 2% - ie difference between 1.56 and 1.61) of leaving on 29 March.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 8,806
    corporeal said:

    viewcode said:

    corporeal said:

    viewcode said:

    @corporeal

    When I said I was looking forward to your next article, I didn't realise it would be so fast! Thank you!

    I do it all for my public.

    For additional nerdery there's some extra charts on my twitter account. Ones that weren't pretty enough for the article.
    Linky, please?
    https://twitter.com/PBcorporeal
    Favorite'ed. Thank you.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 8,445

    kinabalu said:

    It is fascinating, isn't it? Blair, what a phenom. A politician with sustained popularity ratings equal to that of apple crumble and custard on a winter's afternoon. Amazing. Will we ever see the like again?

    No, there will never be another Tone. The stars aligned amazingly in his favour:

    End of an unprecedentedly long, yet often divisive, era of Tory rule.

    Tories rancorous and divided over Maggie's ousting.

    Tories dubious about or downright hostile to her wishy washy replacement.

    Sexual and financial Tory sleaze (real or imagined) all around.

    Tory MPs popping off at regular intervals, providing lots of juicy by-elections to feed the narrative.

    The dramatic calamity of Black Wednesday.

    A feverishly hostile press consumed with blood lust.

    A government with a tiny, or non-existent, majority held to ransom by fringe euro-sceptic fanatics.

    The British Left in retreat, allowing Tone to concentrate fully on his right flank.
    If you could ignore Iraq - and that is some caveat - he was actually a pretty decent PM.
    Let's not forget that Blair won a majority AFTER Iraq. Looking back, that result is more remarkable than the two landslides.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 8,603
    Yorkcity said:

    kinabalu said:

    It is fascinating, isn't it? Blair, what a phenom. A politician with sustained popularity ratings equal to that of apple crumble and custard on a winter's afternoon. Amazing. Will we ever see the like again?

    No, there will never be another Tone. The stars aligned amazingly in his favour:

    End of an unprecedentedly long, yet often divisive, era of Tory rule.

    Tories rancorous and divided over Maggie's ousting.

    Tories dubious about or downright hostile to her wishy washy replacement.

    Sexual and financial Tory sleaze (real or imagined) all around.

    Tory MPs popping off at regular intervals, providing lots of juicy by-elections to feed the narrative.

    The dramatic calamity of Black Wednesday.

    A feverishly hostile press consumed with blood lust.

    A government with a tiny, or non-existent, majority held to ransom by fringe euro-sceptic fanatics.

    The British Left in retreat, allowing Tone to concentrate fully on his right flank.
    If you could ignore Iraq - and that is some caveat - he was actually a pretty decent PM.
    True best PM in my lifetime .
    Yes, I'm inclined to agree.

    Iraq was a terrible mistake but... just look at how poor the other PMs have been.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 27,781

    kinabalu said:

    It is fascinating, isn't it? Blair, what a phenom. A politician with sustained popularity ratings equal to that of apple crumble and custard on a winter's afternoon. Amazing. Will we ever see the like again?

    No, there will never be another Tone. The stars aligned amazingly in his favour:

    End of an unprecedentedly long, yet often divisive, era of Tory rule.

    Tories rancorous and divided over Maggie's ousting.

    Tories dubious about or downright hostile to her wishy washy replacement.

    Sexual and financial Tory sleaze (real or imagined) all around.

    Tory MPs popping off at regular intervals, providing lots of juicy by-elections to feed the narrative.

    The dramatic calamity of Black Wednesday.

    A feverishly hostile press consumed with blood lust.

    A government with a tiny, or non-existent, majority held to ransom by fringe euro-sceptic fanatics.

    The British Left in retreat, allowing Tone to concentrate fully on his right flank.
    If you could ignore Iraq - and that is some caveat - he was actually a pretty decent PM.
    He left a lot of problems behind him, which manifested themselves under his successors.
  • kinabalu said:

    It is fascinating, isn't it? Blair, what a phenom. A politician with sustained popularity ratings equal to that of apple crumble and custard on a winter's afternoon. Amazing. Will we ever see the like again?

    No, there will never be another Tone. The stars aligned amazingly in his favour:

    End of an unprecedentedly long, yet often divisive, era of Tory rule.

    Tories rancorous and divided over Maggie's ousting.

    Tories dubious about or downright hostile to her wishy washy replacement.

    Sexual and financial Tory sleaze (real or imagined) all around.

    Tory MPs popping off at regular intervals, providing lots of juicy by-elections to feed the narrative.

    The dramatic calamity of Black Wednesday.

    A feverishly hostile press consumed with blood lust.

    A government with a tiny, or non-existent, majority held to ransom by fringe euro-sceptic fanatics.

    The British Left in retreat, allowing Tone to concentrate fully on his right flank.
    If you could ignore Iraq - and that is some caveat - he was actually a pretty decent PM.
    Let's not forget that Blair won a majority AFTER Iraq. Looking back, that result is more remarkable than the two landslides.
    It's a personal view, Sandy, but I always regard Brown as the mirror image of Blair - a crap PM who had one highly significant policy success to his credit, the management of the financial crisis.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,536
    viewcode said:

    corporeal said:

    viewcode said:

    corporeal said:

    viewcode said:

    @corporeal

    When I said I was looking forward to your next article, I didn't realise it would be so fast! Thank you!

    I do it all for my public.

    For additional nerdery there's some extra charts on my twitter account. Ones that weren't pretty enough for the article.
    Linky, please?
    https://twitter.com/PBcorporeal
    Favorite'ed. Thank you.
    https://www.datawrapper.de/_/KSf5u/

    This is a chart format I was trying to figure out but couldn't get it quite clean enough for the articles.
  • Yorkcity said:

    kinabalu said:

    It is fascinating, isn't it? Blair, what a phenom. A politician with sustained popularity ratings equal to that of apple crumble and custard on a winter's afternoon. Amazing. Will we ever see the like again?

    No, there will never be another Tone. The stars aligned amazingly in his favour:

    End of an unprecedentedly long, yet often divisive, era of Tory rule.

    Tories rancorous and divided over Maggie's ousting.

    Tories dubious about or downright hostile to her wishy washy replacement.

    Sexual and financial Tory sleaze (real or imagined) all around.

    Tory MPs popping off at regular intervals, providing lots of juicy by-elections to feed the narrative.

    The dramatic calamity of Black Wednesday.

    A feverishly hostile press consumed with blood lust.

    A government with a tiny, or non-existent, majority held to ransom by fringe euro-sceptic fanatics.

    The British Left in retreat, allowing Tone to concentrate fully on his right flank.
    If you could ignore Iraq - and that is some caveat - he was actually a pretty decent PM.
    True best PM in my lifetime .
    Personally I'd go for Major, although he was regularly stymied by the dysfunctional state of his Party.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 49,750
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    I'm beginning to wonder if the British public aren't, collectively, an epic set of pollster trolls.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 27,781

    I was beginning to wobble in my prediction that we wont in the end actually leave the EU.

    Rentoul has cheered me up no end:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-referendum-final-say-leave-split-remain-a8713046.html

    That could happen, but to prevent Brexit, I think one needs a change of government.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 27,781

    Yorkcity said:

    kinabalu said:

    It is fascinating, isn't it? Blair, what a phenom. A politician with sustained popularity ratings equal to that of apple crumble and custard on a winter's afternoon. Amazing. Will we ever see the like again?

    No, there will never be another Tone. The stars aligned amazingly in his favour:

    End of an unprecedentedly long, yet often divisive, era of Tory rule.

    Tories rancorous and divided over Maggie's ousting.

    Tories dubious about or downright hostile to her wishy washy replacement.

    Sexual and financial Tory sleaze (real or imagined) all around.

    Tory MPs popping off at regular intervals, providing lots of juicy by-elections to feed the narrative.

    The dramatic calamity of Black Wednesday.

    A feverishly hostile press consumed with blood lust.

    A government with a tiny, or non-existent, majority held to ransom by fringe euro-sceptic fanatics.

    The British Left in retreat, allowing Tone to concentrate fully on his right flank.
    If you could ignore Iraq - and that is some caveat - he was actually a pretty decent PM.
    True best PM in my lifetime .
    Personally I'd go for Major, although he was regularly stymied by the dysfunctional state of his Party.
    Thatcher, for me.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 3,695

    kinabalu said:

    It is fascinating, isn't it? Blair, what a phenom. A politician with sustained popularity ratings equal to that of apple crumble and custard on a winter's afternoon. Amazing. Will we ever see the like again?

    No, there will never be another Tone. The stars aligned amazingly in his favour:

    End of an unprecedentedly long, yet often divisive, era of Tory rule.

    Tories rancorous and divided over Maggie's ousting.

    Tories dubious about or downright hostile to her wishy washy replacement.

    Sexual and financial Tory sleaze (real or imagined) all around.

    Tory MPs popping off at regular intervals, providing lots of juicy by-elections to feed the narrative.

    The dramatic calamity of Black Wednesday.

    A feverishly hostile press consumed with blood lust.

    A government with a tiny, or non-existent, majority held to ransom by fringe euro-sceptic fanatics.

    The British Left in retreat, allowing Tone to concentrate fully on his right flank.
    If you could ignore Iraq - and that is some caveat - he was actually a pretty decent PM.
    Let's not forget that Blair won a majority AFTER Iraq. Looking back, that result is more remarkable than the two landslides.
    Good point.
    I think 9/11 took away a lot of Blair's focus on his second term.
    Also the decision to back Bush over Iraq in my opinion was in part , not to have the perception of a Labour Party been anti American.
    Especially with the Conservative Party at the time been even more keen in support of Bush.
  • Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    It is fascinating, isn't it? Blair, what a phenom. A politician with sustained popularity ratings equal to that of apple crumble and custard on a winter's afternoon. Amazing. Will we ever see the like again?

    No, there will never be another Tone. The stars aligned amazingly in his favour:

    End of an unprecedentedly long, yet often divisive, era of Tory rule.

    Tories rancorous and divided over Maggie's ousting.

    Tories dubious about or downright hostile to her wishy washy replacement.

    Sexual and financial Tory sleaze (real or imagined) all around.

    Tory MPs popping off at regular intervals, providing lots of juicy by-elections to feed the narrative.

    The dramatic calamity of Black Wednesday.

    A feverishly hostile press consumed with blood lust.

    A government with a tiny, or non-existent, majority held to ransom by fringe euro-sceptic fanatics.

    The British Left in retreat, allowing Tone to concentrate fully on his right flank.
    If you could ignore Iraq - and that is some caveat - he was actually a pretty decent PM.
    He left a lot of problems behind him, which manifested themselves under his successors.
    They all do that, Sean. It's fair to say though that his greater achievements were front-loaded towards the early days of his tenure (Kosovo for example.) But he did govern sensibly enough from the Centre, for the most part. We could do with a decent Centreist right now.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 44,644
    I do have to applaud corporeal's style. That's a very cutting final sentence, intentionally or not.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 4,339

    kinabalu said:

    It is fascinating, isn't it? Blair, what a phenom. A politician with sustained popularity ratings equal to that of apple crumble and custard on a winter's afternoon. Amazing. Will we ever see the like again?

    No, there will never be another Tone. The stars aligned amazingly in his favour:

    End of an unprecedentedly long, yet often divisive, era of Tory rule.

    Tories rancorous and divided over Maggie's ousting.

    Tories dubious about or downright hostile to her wishy washy replacement.

    Sexual and financial Tory sleaze (real or imagined) all around.

    Tory MPs popping off at regular intervals, providing lots of juicy by-elections to feed the narrative.

    The dramatic calamity of Black Wednesday.

    A feverishly hostile press consumed with blood lust.

    A government with a tiny, or non-existent, majority held to ransom by fringe euro-sceptic fanatics.

    The British Left in retreat, allowing Tone to concentrate fully on his right flank.
    If you could ignore Iraq - and that is some caveat - he was actually a pretty decent PM.
    Let's not forget that Blair won a majority AFTER Iraq. Looking back, that result is more remarkable than the two landslides.
    I wonder how much 2005 was actually Gordon's election. Amazing to think that at the time many regarded Tony's premiership as merely a kind of warm-up act - preparation for the golden age of Brown that was to come.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 7,242
    edited January 6
    Sean_F said:

    Yorkcity said:

    kinabalu said:

    It is fascinating, isn't it? Blair, what a phenom. A politician with sustained popularity ratings equal to that of apple crumble and custard on a winter's afternoon. Amazing. Will we ever see the like again?

    No, there will never be another Tone. The stars aligned amazingly in his favour:

    End of an unprecedentedly long, yet often divisive, era of Tory rule.

    Tories rancorous and divided over Maggie's ousting.

    Tories dubious about or downright hostile to her wishy washy replacement.

    Sexual and financial Tory sleaze (real or imagined) all around.

    Tory MPs popping off at regular intervals, providing lots of juicy by-elections to feed the narrative.

    The dramatic calamity of Black Wednesday.

    A feverishly hostile press consumed with blood lust.

    A government with a tiny, or non-existent, majority held to ransom by fringe euro-sceptic fanatics.

    The British Left in retreat, allowing Tone to concentrate fully on his right flank.
    If you could ignore Iraq - and that is some caveat - he was actually a pretty decent PM.
    True best PM in my lifetime .
    Personally I'd go for Major, although he was regularly stymied by the dysfunctional state of his Party.
    Thatcher, for me.
    She was the worst - and by far the most venal - in my lifetime.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 8,603
    justin124 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Yorkcity said:

    kinabalu said:

    It is fascinating, isn't it? Blair, what a phenom. A politician with sustained popularity ratings equal to that of apple crumble and custard on a winter's afternoon. Amazing. Will we ever see the like again?

    No, there will never be another Tone. The stars aligned amazingly in his favour:

    End of an unprecedentedly long, yet often divisive, era of Tory rule.

    Tories rancorous and divided over Maggie's ousting.

    Tories dubious about or downright hostile to her wishy washy replacement.

    Sexual and financial Tory sleaze (real or imagined) all around.

    Tory MPs popping off at regular intervals, providing lots of juicy by-elections to feed the narrative.

    The dramatic calamity of Black Wednesday.

    A feverishly hostile press consumed with blood lust.

    A government with a tiny, or non-existent, majority held to ransom by fringe euro-sceptic fanatics.

    The British Left in retreat, allowing Tone to concentrate fully on his right flank.
    If you could ignore Iraq - and that is some caveat - he was actually a pretty decent PM.
    True best PM in my lifetime .
    Personally I'd go for Major, although he was regularly stymied by the dysfunctional state of his Party.
    Thatcher, for me.
    She was the worst - and by far the most venal - in my lifetime.
    I'm not sure about 'venal' but she single-handedly turned the One Nation Tory party into the Nasty Party.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 3,695

    Yorkcity said:

    kinabalu said:

    It is fascinating, isn't it? Blair, what a phenom. A politician with sustained popularity ratings equal to that of apple crumble and custard on a winter's afternoon. Amazing. Will we ever see the like again?

    No, there will never be another Tone. The stars aligned amazingly in his favour:

    End of an unprecedentedly long, yet often divisive, era of Tory rule.

    Tories rancorous and divided over Maggie's ousting.

    Tories dubious about or downright hostile to her wishy washy replacement.

    Sexual and financial Tory sleaze (real or imagined) all around.

    Tory MPs popping off at regular intervals, providing lots of juicy by-elections to feed the narrative.

    The dramatic calamity of Black Wednesday.

    A feverishly hostile press consumed with blood lust.

    A government with a tiny, or non-existent, majority held to ransom by fringe euro-sceptic fanatics.

    The British Left in retreat, allowing Tone to concentrate fully on his right flank.
    If you could ignore Iraq - and that is some caveat - he was actually a pretty decent PM.
    True best PM in my lifetime .
    Personally I'd go for Major, although he was regularly stymied by the dysfunctional state of his Party.
    On reflection over the years.
    Major has gone up in my estimation.
    The deal he got at Maastricht looks brilliant in comparison to Mays best efforts in the present day.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 33,949
    Sean_F said:

    Yorkcity said:

    kinabalu said:

    It is fascinating, isn't it? Blair, what a phenom. A politician with sustained popularity ratings equal to that of apple crumble and custard on a winter's afternoon. Amazing. Will we ever see the like again?

    No, there will never be another Tone. The stars aligned amazingly in his favour:

    End of an unprecedentedly long, yet often divisive, era of Tory rule.

    Tories rancorous and divided over Maggie's ousting.

    Tories dubious about or downright hostile to her wishy washy replacement.

    Sexual and financial Tory sleaze (real or imagined) all around.

    Tory MPs popping off at regular intervals, providing lots of juicy by-elections to feed the narrative.

    The dramatic calamity of Black Wednesday.

    A feverishly hostile press consumed with blood lust.

    A government with a tiny, or non-existent, majority held to ransom by fringe euro-sceptic fanatics.

    The British Left in retreat, allowing Tone to concentrate fully on his right flank.
    If you could ignore Iraq - and that is some caveat - he was actually a pretty decent PM.
    True best PM in my lifetime .
    Personally I'd go for Major, although he was regularly stymied by the dysfunctional state of his Party.
    Thatcher, for me.
    Since my first PM was Macmillan same here. As Andrew Marr observed "We are all Thatcher's children."
  • Sean_F said:

    Yorkcity said:

    kinabalu said:

    It is fascinating, isn't it? Blair, what a phenom. A politician with sustained popularity ratings equal to that of apple crumble and custard on a winter's afternoon. Amazing. Will we ever see the like again?

    No, there will never be another Tone. The stars aligned amazingly in his favour:

    End of an unprecedentedly long, yet often divisive, era of Tory rule.

    Tories rancorous and divided over Maggie's ousting.

    Tories dubious about or downright hostile to her wishy washy replacement.

    Sexual and financial Tory sleaze (real or imagined) all around.

    Tory MPs popping off at regular intervals, providing lots of juicy by-elections to feed the narrative.

    The dramatic calamity of Black Wednesday.

    A feverishly hostile press consumed with blood lust.

    A government with a tiny, or non-existent, majority held to ransom by fringe euro-sceptic fanatics.

    The British Left in retreat, allowing Tone to concentrate fully on his right flank.
    If you could ignore Iraq - and that is some caveat - he was actually a pretty decent PM.
    True best PM in my lifetime .
    Personally I'd go for Major, although he was regularly stymied by the dysfunctional state of his Party.
    Thatcher, for me.
    Good, but not the best for me, Sean. Too divisive. Churchill the worst (drunk much of the time). Atlee would be up at the top but I was born in 1948 so scarcely qualifies as 'in my lifetime'. Heath and Wilson I have mid-division, but probably better than their general classification. Cameron would have scored high but for one rather unfortunate gaff....ahem.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,536
    kle4 said:

    I do have to applaud corporeal's style. That's a very cutting final sentence, intentionally or not.

    I do try.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 33,949
    justin124 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Yorkcity said:

    kinabalu said:

    It is fascinating, isn't it? Blair, what a phenom. A politician with sustained popularity ratings equal to that of apple crumble and custard on a winter's afternoon. Amazing. Will we ever see the like again?

    No, there will never be another Tone. The stars aligned amazingly in his favour:

    End of an unprecedentedly long, yet often divisive, era of Tory rule.

    Tories rancorous and divided over Maggie's ousting.

    Tories dubious about or downright hostile to her wishy washy replacement.

    Sexual and financial Tory sleaze (real or imagined) all around.

    Tory MPs popping off at regular intervals, providing lots of juicy by-elections to feed the narrative.

    The dramatic calamity of Black Wednesday.

    A feverishly hostile press consumed with blood lust.

    A government with a tiny, or non-existent, majority held to ransom by fringe euro-sceptic fanatics.

    The British Left in retreat, allowing Tone to concentrate fully on his right flank.
    If you could ignore Iraq - and that is some caveat - he was actually a pretty decent PM.
    True best PM in my lifetime .
    Personally I'd go for Major, although he was regularly stymied by the dysfunctional state of his Party.
    Thatcher, for me.
    She was the worst - and by far the most venal - in my lifetime.
    Do you understand the meaning of 'venal'?

    Thatcher was many things, but there is little to no evidence she was willing to behave in a way that is not honest or moral in exchange for money.

    https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/venal

    If anyone came closest to that it was Blair - and I don't remotely think he was.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 23,584
    FF43 said:

    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:


    The EU eventually forced France to lift its ban on British beef. The other countries were already compliant. The EU would have kept its ban just as the US did, if we weren't members. Definitely an instance where membership was beneficial.

    On topic, sort of, with Corporal's excellent spreadsheet mini-series, Thatcher was far less popular than made out to be in hindsight. She benefited from a divided opposition.

    No, it didn't 'force France to lift its ban on British beef.' It allowed France to keep its ban in place for seven years AFTER the ban had been revoked, despite numerous rulings from the CJEU that it should be lifted. And it has never forced France to pay the £2.1 billion in fines it should have had for that breach of the rules.

    As for the suggestion that if we had not been in the EU there would have been somebody to impose a blanket ban on the export of all British beef - what are you smoking?

    It was not only not beneficial, it was a disaster, a criminal enterprise put forward by certain elements that shall be nameless to exploit a public health emergency for their personal gain - and people died as a result.

    That is not to say the EU is all bad - if it was, I wouldn't have voted remain - just to remind people that there are times when it got it appallingly badly wrong and showed itself in the darkest of lights.

    Of course, if we had behaved like France and ignored the EU when it didn't suit us, we would not be about to leave. That's the irony.
    Rightly or wrongly, consumers found the idea of eating mad cows abhorrent. All the bans on British beef were driven by consumer pressure. The EU lifted its ban on British beef after three years only because the UK was a member and could bring pressure to bear. Otherwise it would have left its ban in place - as the Americans did for twenty years!
    So we should be a member because otherwise corrupt and illegal things will be done to hurt us?
    I don't get your point. I am simply pointing out, as a matter of fact, that the EU lifted its ban on British beef far earlier than it would have done otherwise and well before other administrations. Unfortunately British beef was seen worldwide as poison.
    The EU ban lasted 10 years, not 3. (1996-2006)

    We could, of course, taken the EU to the WTO for illegal restraint of trade if we were not a member
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 8,603
    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:


    The EU eventually forced France to lift its ban on British beef. The other countries were already compliant. The EU would have kept its ban just as the US did, if we weren't members. Definitely an instance where membership was beneficial.

    On topic, sort of, with Corporal's excellent spreadsheet mini-series, Thatcher was far less popular than made out to be in hindsight. She benefited from a divided opposition.

    No, it didn't 'force France to lift its ban on British beef.' It allowed France to keep its ban in place for seven years AFTER the ban had been revoked, despite numerous rulings from the CJEU that it should be lifted. And it has never forced France to pay the £2.1 billion in fines it should have had for that breach of the rules.

    As for the suggestion that if we had not been in the EU there would have been somebody to impose a blanket ban on the export of all British beef - what are you smoking?

    It was not only not beneficial, it was a disaster, a criminal enterprise put forward by certain elements that shall be nameless to exploit a public health emergency for their personal gain - and people died as a result.

    That is not to say the EU is all bad - if it was, I wouldn't have voted remain - just to remind people that there are times when it got it appallingly badly wrong and showed itself in the darkest of lights.

    Of course, if we had behaved like France and ignored the EU when it didn't suit us, we would not be about to leave. That's the irony.
    Rightly or wrongly, consumers found the idea of eating mad cows abhorrent. All the bans on British beef were driven by consumer pressure. The EU lifted its ban on British beef after three years only because the UK was a member and could bring pressure to bear. Otherwise it would have left its ban in place - as the Americans did for twenty years!
    So we should be a member because otherwise corrupt and illegal things will be done to hurt us?
    I don't get your point. I am simply pointing out, as a matter of fact, that the EU lifted its ban on British beef far earlier than it would have done otherwise and well before other administrations. Unfortunately British beef was seen worldwide as poison.
    The EU ban lasted 10 years, not 3. (1996-2006)

    We could, of course, taken the EU to the WTO for illegal restraint of trade if we were not a member
    Did we take the USA to the WTO?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 23,584

    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:


    The EU eventually forced France to lift its ban on British beef. The other countries were already compliant. The EU would have kept its ban just as the US did, if we weren't members. Definitely an instance where membership was beneficial.

    On topic, sort of, with Corporal's excellent spreadsheet mini-series, Thatcher was far less popular than made out to be in hindsight. She benefited from a divided opposition.

    No, it didn't 'force France to lift its ban on British beef.' It allowed France to keep its ban in place for seven years AFTER the ban had been revoked, despite numerous rulings from the CJEU that it should be lifted. And it has never forced France to pay the £2.1 billion in fines it should have had for that breach of the rules.

    As for the suggestion that if we had not been in the EU there would have been somebody to impose a blanket ban on the export of all British beef - what are you smoking?

    It was not only not beneficial, it was a disaster, a criminal enterprise put forward by certain elements that shall be nameless to exploit a public health emergency for their personal gain - and people died as a result.

    That is not to say the EU is all bad - if it was, I wouldn't have voted remain - just to remind people that there are times when it got it appallingly badly wrong and showed itself in the darkest of lights.

    Of course, if we had behaved like France and ignored the EU when it didn't suit us, we would not be about to leave. That's the irony.
    Rightly or wrongly, consumers found the idea of eating mad cows abhorrent. All the bans on British beef were driven by consumer pressure. The EU lifted its ban on British beef after three years only because the UK was a member and could bring pressure to bear. Otherwise it would have left its ban in place - as the Americans did for twenty years!
    So we should be a member because otherwise corrupt and illegal things will be done to hurt us?
    He's almost admitting that the EU is no more than a dressed up protection racket. Surprising honesty from the most EUfanatic member on here.
    Jeez, you guys!

    A club supports its members. If you want to call that a protection racket go ahead. But then NATO is a protection racket too. The UK is a protection racket.

    The Conservative party is a protection racket... (hang on, you might have a point on that one.)
    No: what @FF43 said was the ban was illegal but it was only lifted as quickly as it was because we were a member.

    My view is that an illegal ban should never have been imposed.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 49,750
    Mr. Punter, bit harsh for you to hold the "Calm down, dear" comment against Cameron.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 27,781

    justin124 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Yorkcity said:

    kinabalu said:

    It is fascinating, isn't it? Blair, what a phenom. A politician with sustained popularity ratings equal to that of apple crumble and custard on a winter's afternoon. Amazing. Will we ever see the like again?

    No, there will never be another Tone. The stars aligned amazingly in his favour:

    End of an unprecedentedly long, yet often divisive, era of Tory rule.

    Tories rancorous and divided over Maggie's ousting.

    Tories dubious about or downright hostile to her wishy washy replacement.

    Sexual and financial Tory sleaze (real or imagined) all around.

    Tory MPs popping off at regular intervals, providing lots of juicy by-elections to feed the narrative.

    The dramatic calamity of Black Wednesday.

    A feverishly hostile press consumed with blood lust.

    A government with a tiny, or non-existent, majority held to ransom by fringe euro-sceptic fanatics.

    The British Left in retreat, allowing Tone to concentrate fully on his right flank.
    If you could ignore Iraq - and that is some caveat - he was actually a pretty decent PM.
    True best PM in my lifetime .
    Personally I'd go for Major, although he was regularly stymied by the dysfunctional state of his Party.
    Thatcher, for me.
    She was the worst - and by far the most venal - in my lifetime.
    I'm not sure about 'venal' but she single-handedly turned the One Nation Tory party into the Nasty Party.
    To left wing contemporaries, the Conservatives have always been The Nasty Party. Even Macmillan was reviled by the left, during his premiership.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 27,781

    justin124 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Yorkcity said:

    kinabalu said:

    It is fascinating, isn't it? Blair, what a phenom. A politician with sustained popularity ratings equal to that of apple crumble and custard on a winter's afternoon. Amazing. Will we ever see the like again?

    No, there will never be another Tone. The stars aligned amazingly in his favour:

    End of an unprecedentedly long, yet often divisive, era of Tory rule.

    Tories rancorous and divided over Maggie's ousting.

    Tories dubious about or downright hostile to her wishy washy replacement.

    Sexual and financial Tory sleaze (real or imagined) all around.

    Tory MPs popping off at regular intervals, providing lots of juicy by-elections to feed the narrative.

    The dramatic calamity of Black Wednesday.

    A feverishly hostile press consumed with blood lust.

    A government with a tiny, or non-existent, majority held to ransom by fringe euro-sceptic fanatics.

    The British Left in retreat, allowing Tone to concentrate fully on his right flank.
    If you could ignore Iraq - and that is some caveat - he was actually a pretty decent PM.
    True best PM in my lifetime .
    Personally I'd go for Major, although he was regularly stymied by the dysfunctional state of his Party.
    Thatcher, for me.
    She was the worst - and by far the most venal - in my lifetime.
    Do you understand the meaning of 'venal'?

    Thatcher was many things, but there is little to no evidence she was willing to behave in a way that is not honest or moral in exchange for money.

    https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/venal

    If anyone came closest to that it was Blair - and I don't remotely think he was.
    Mr. and Mrs. Blair were like truffle hounds, in their pursuit of the fruits of office.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 33,949
    I see they let Gardiner out again.....

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 33,949
    Sean_F said:

    justin124 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Yorkcity said:

    kinabalu said:

    It is fascinating, isn't it? Blair, what a phenom. A politician with sustained popularity ratings equal to that of apple crumble and custard on a winter's afternoon. Amazing. Will we ever see the like again?

    No, there will never be another Tone. The stars aligned amazingly in his favour:

    End of an unprecedentedly long, yet often divisive, era of Tory rule.

    Tories rancorous and divided over Maggie's ousting.

    Tories dubious about or downright hostile to her wishy washy replacement.

    Sexual and financial Tory sleaze (real or imagined) all around.

    Tory MPs popping off at regular intervals, providing lots of juicy by-elections to feed the narrative.

    The dramatic calamity of Black Wednesday.

    A feverishly hostile press consumed with blood lust.

    A government with a tiny, or non-existent, majority held to ransom by fringe euro-sceptic fanatics.

    The British Left in retreat, allowing Tone to concentrate fully on his right flank.
    If you could ignore Iraq - and that is some caveat - he was actually a pretty decent PM.
    True best PM in my lifetime .
    Personally I'd go for Major, although he was regularly stymied by the dysfunctional state of his Party.
    Thatcher, for me.
    She was the worst - and by far the most venal - in my lifetime.
    Do you understand the meaning of 'venal'?

    Thatcher was many things, but there is little to no evidence she was willing to behave in a way that is not honest or moral in exchange for money.

    https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/venal

    If anyone came closest to that it was Blair - and I don't remotely think he was.
    Mr. and Mrs. Blair were like truffle hounds, in their pursuit of the fruits of office.
    "Wealth post office" would be an interesting measure.......which the Blairs would win by a country mile.....
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 44,644
    I know Corbyn (and presumably Gardiner too) are intent on making the point that a Labour leave would be better than a Tory leave, rather than just do what their members want and come out for Remain, but surely there's better ways?
  • Sean_F said:

    justin124 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Yorkcity said:

    kinabalu said:

    It is fascinating, isn't it? Blair, what a phenom. A politician with sustained popularity ratings equal to that of apple crumble and custard on a winter's afternoon. Amazing. Will we ever see the like again?

    No, there will never be another Tone. The stars aligned amazingly in his favour:

    End of an unprecedentedly long, yet often divisive, era of Tory rule.

    Tories rancorous and divided over Maggie's ousting.

    Tories dubious about or downright hostile to her wishy washy replacement.

    Sexual and financial Tory sleaze (real or imagined) all around.

    Tory MPs popping off at regular intervals, providing lots of juicy by-elections to feed the narrative.

    The dramatic calamity of Black Wednesday.

    A feverishly hostile press consumed with blood lust.

    A government with a tiny, or non-existent, majority held to ransom by fringe euro-sceptic fanatics.

    The British Left in retreat, allowing Tone to concentrate fully on his right flank.
    If you could ignore Iraq - and that is some caveat - he was actually a pretty decent PM.
    True best PM in my lifetime .
    Personally I'd go for Major, although he was regularly stymied by the dysfunctional state of his Party.
    Thatcher, for me.
    She was the worst - and by far the most venal - in my lifetime.
    Do you understand the meaning of 'venal'?

    Thatcher was many things, but there is little to no evidence she was willing to behave in a way that is not honest or moral in exchange for money.

    https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/venal

    If anyone came closest to that it was Blair - and I don't remotely think he was.
    Mr. and Mrs. Blair were like truffle hounds, in their pursuit of the fruits of office.
    They were certainly quick to pick up the scent, Sean. I guess that bothers you more than me, but that they were is indisputable.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 44,644
    edited January 6
    I do appreciate he's cutting out the bullsh*t and being clear that, in the Commons at least (and most outside it, though not all), Referendum is just code for Remain. Pretty crazy that people stated to be opposed to the deal are still assumed to fall in line with it anyway.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 15,007

    kinabalu said:

    It is fascinating, isn't it? Blair, what a phenom. A politician with sustained popularity ratings equal to that of apple crumble and custard on a winter's afternoon. Amazing. Will we ever see the like again?

    No, there will never be another Tone. The stars aligned amazingly in his favour:

    End of an unprecedentedly long, yet often divisive, era of Tory rule.

    Tories rancorous and divided over Maggie's ousting.

    Tories dubious about or downright hostile to her wishy washy replacement.

    Sexual and financial Tory sleaze (real or imagined) all around.

    Tory MPs popping off at regular intervals, providing lots of juicy by-elections to feed the narrative.

    The dramatic calamity of Black Wednesday.

    A feverishly hostile press consumed with blood lust.

    A government with a tiny, or non-existent, majority held to ransom by fringe euro-sceptic fanatics.

    The British Left in retreat, allowing Tone to concentrate fully on his right flank.
    If you could ignore Iraq - and that is some caveat - he was actually a pretty decent PM.
    Let's not forget that Blair won a majority AFTER Iraq. Looking back, that result is more remarkable than the two landslides.
    I wonder how much 2005 was actually Gordon's election. Amazing to think that at the time many regarded Tony's premiership as merely a kind of warm-up act - preparation for the golden age of Brown that was to come.
    I know I posted that Blair made one mistake but in fact there were two significant ones. Iraq, of course, and why he backed Bush, God alone knows. However his other was hanging on and making Brown wait. If it hadn't been for Iraq, of course, Brown might have led the party into the 2005 election.
  • Mr. Punter, bit harsh for you to hold the "Calm down, dear" comment against Cameron.

    Lol! I actually thought that was pretty funny. But then so was 'stupid woman' which would have been fairy nuff in the mouth of somebody less balls-achingly PC as Corbyn.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 4,339
    I don't think Maggie's reputation will pass the test of time as well as I once thought. I know of ardent admirers of her back then who now express reservations or downright hostility. Yes, she dragged Britain from the mire of the 1970s, but that seems increasingly like a battle of its time. Pointing to an enduring legacy is more difficult.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 23,072
    kle4 said:

    I know Corbyn (and presumably Gardiner too) are intent on making the point that a Labour leave would be better than a Tory leave, rather than just do what their members want and come out for Remain, but surely there's better ways?
    Labour leave is as mythical as the unicorn farms. It is a load of hot air about negotiating a jobs first Brexit. The EU wont give Labour the cake they want and the only way to really protect thousands of jobs is to remain.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 49,750
    Mr. Punter, aye, agree on both counts.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 15,007

    Sean_F said:

    justin124 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Yorkcity said:

    kinabalu said:

    It is fascinating, isn't it? Blair, what a phenom. A politician with sustained popularity ratings equal to that of apple crumble and custard on a winter's afternoon. Amazing. Will we ever see the like again?

    No, there will never be another Tone. The stars aligned amazingly in his favour:

    End of an unprecedentedly long, yet often divisive, era of Tory rule.

    Tories rancorous and divided over Maggie's ousting.

    Tories dubious about or downright hostile to her wishy washy replacement.

    Sexual and financial Tory sleaze (real or imagined) all around.

    Tory MPs popping off at regular intervals, providing lots of juicy by-elections to feed the narrative.

    The dramatic calamity of Black Wednesday.

    A feverishly hostile press consumed with blood lust.

    A government with a tiny, or non-existent, majority held to ransom by fringe euro-sceptic fanatics.

    The British Left in retreat, allowing Tone to concentrate fully on his right flank.
    If you could ignore Iraq - and that is some caveat - he was actually a pretty decent PM.
    True best PM in my lifetime .
    Personally I'd go for Major, although he was regularly stymied by the dysfunctional state of his Party.
    Thatcher, for me.
    She was the worst - and by far the most venal - in my lifetime.
    Do you understand the meaning of 'venal'?

    Thatcher was many things, but there is little to no evidence she was willing to behave in a way that is not honest or moral in exchange for money.

    https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/venal

    If anyone came closest to that it was Blair - and I don't remotely think he was.
    Mr. and Mrs. Blair were like truffle hounds, in their pursuit of the fruits of office.
    They were certainly quick to pick up the scent, Sean. I guess that bothers you more than me, but that they were is indisputable.
    I suspect Cameron would be, but........
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 23,072
    Corbyn should be more honest. He sincerely believes the EU will stop him implementing a fully socialist economy in the UK.

    He's an out and out Leaver and has been since the 1970s.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 34,434
    Have we done this?

    A new YouGov poll of 25,000 people has found that the Tories are now on 40 points - while Jeremy Corbyn's Labour are lagging behind on just 34 points.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6562311/Tories-six-point-lead-Labour-despite-Brexit-civil-war.html
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 9,074

    justin124 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Yorkcity said:

    kinabalu said:

    It is fascinating, isn't it? Blair, what a phenom. A politician with sustained popularity ratings equal to that of apple crumble and custard on a winter's afternoon. Amazing. Will we ever see the like again?

    No, there will never be another Tone. The stars aligned amazingly in his favour:

    End of an unprecedentedly long, yet often divisive, era of Tory rule.

    Tories rancorous and divided over Maggie's ousting.

    Tories dubious about or downright hostile to her wishy washy replacement.

    Sexual and financial Tory sleaze (real or imagined) all around.

    Tory MPs popping off at regular intervals, providing lots of juicy by-elections to feed the narrative.

    The dramatic calamity of Black Wednesday.

    A feverishly hostile press consumed with blood lust.

    A government with a tiny, or non-existent, majority held to ransom by fringe euro-sceptic fanatics.

    The British Left in retreat, allowing Tone to concentrate fully on his right flank.
    If you could ignore Iraq - and that is some caveat - he was actually a pretty decent PM.
    True best PM in my lifetime .
    Personally I'd go for Major, although he was regularly stymied by the dysfunctional state of his Party.
    Thatcher, for me.
    She was the worst - and by far the most venal - in my lifetime.
    Do you understand the meaning of 'venal'?

    Thatcher was many things, but there is little to no evidence she was willing to behave in a way that is not honest or moral in exchange for money.

    https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/venal

    If anyone came closest to that it was Blair - and I don't remotely think he was.
    Mark Thatchers role in the al Yamamah arms deal negotiated by his mother springs to mind.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 44,644

    kle4 said:

    I know Corbyn (and presumably Gardiner too) are intent on making the point that a Labour leave would be better than a Tory leave, rather than just do what their members want and come out for Remain, but surely there's better ways?
    Labour leave is as mythical as the unicorn farms. It is a load of hot air about negotiating a jobs first Brexit. The EU wont give Labour the cake they want and the only way to really protect thousands of jobs is to remain.
    It is too late for a new negotiation under Corbyn, this is true, and I am surprised they are still pushing it, but I understand why, but there's unrealistic claims and then theirs very unrealistic claims.

    I don't think Maggie's reputation will pass the test of time as well as I once thought. I know of ardent admirers of her back then who now express reservations or downright hostility. Yes, she dragged Britain from the mire of the 1970s, but that seems increasingly like a battle of its time. Pointing to an enduring legacy is more difficult.

    I upset a family member of mine recently when I expressed the view, oft mentioned, that I really hope we are getting to a point whereby people stop trying to scare and inspire me by banging on about Thatcher. Which is not to say I think any legacy of hers, positive and negative, should be dismissed or forgotten, and in fairness the deification/demonisation of her has not seemed particularly prominent in the past few years, but it can be wearying how passionate people can get and think others should get about it still.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 12,183
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    viewcode said:

    @corporeal

    When I said I was looking forward to your next article, I didn't realise it would be so fast! Thank you!

    Part three is out this evening and like the two other two it is amazing.
    Ugh, Mr Eagles.

    You need to get Grammarly...

    As for its relative awesomeness, can we please decide this by AV?
    I woke up at 5am on Saturday, went to bed at 3.30am this morning and met the EDL yesterday, I'm a bit tired and I can blame auto-correct.
    What did we used to blame for our errors before we had auto-correct?
    The two other two.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 27,781

    Sean_F said:

    justin124 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Yorkcity said:

    kinabalu said:

    It is fascinating, isn't it? Blair, what a phenom. A politician with sustained popularity ratings equal to that of apple crumble and custard on a winter's afternoon. Amazing. Will we ever see the like again?

    No, there will never be another Tone. The stars aligned amazingly in his favour:

    End of an unprecedentedly long, yet often divisive, era of Tory rule.

    Tories rancorous and divided over Maggie's ousting.

    Tories dubious about or downright hostile to her wishy washy replacement.

    Sexual and financial Tory sleaze (real or imagined) all around.

    Tory MPs popping off at regular intervals, providing lots of juicy by-elections to feed the narrative.

    The dramatic calamity of Black Wednesday.

    A feverishly hostile press consumed with blood lust.

    A government with a tiny, or non-existent, majority held to ransom by fringe euro-sceptic fanatics.

    The British Left in retreat, allowing Tone to concentrate fully on his right flank.
    If you could ignore Iraq - and that is some caveat - he was actually a pretty decent PM.
    True best PM in my lifetime .
    Personally I'd go for Major, although he was regularly stymied by the dysfunctional state of his Party.
    Thatcher, for me.
    She was the worst - and by far the most venal - in my lifetime.
    Do you understand the meaning of 'venal'?

    Thatcher was many things, but there is little to no evidence she was willing to behave in a way that is not honest or moral in exchange for money.

    https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/venal

    If anyone came closest to that it was Blair - and I don't remotely think he was.
    Mr. and Mrs. Blair were like truffle hounds, in their pursuit of the fruits of office.
    They were certainly quick to pick up the scent, Sean. I guess that bothers you more than me, but that they were is indisputable.
    It amuses me more than it bothers me.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,536

    I don't think Maggie's reputation will pass the test of time as well as I once thought. I know of ardent admirers of her back then who now express reservations or downright hostility. Yes, she dragged Britain from the mire of the 1970s, but that seems increasingly like a battle of its time. Pointing to an enduring legacy is more difficult.

    The enduring legacy is in the attitude towards the workforce and economic priorities.

    There's the obvious decrease of union power, but also before her there was a focus on full employment as a requirement and then controlling inflation as an aspiration. Since her controlling inflation is the requirement and high employment is an aspiration.

    The "Labour isn't working" was one of the most cynically dishonest campaigns ever (and only really took off because of Dennis Healey making a fuss about it).
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 44,644

    Mr. Punter, bit harsh for you to hold the "Calm down, dear" comment against Cameron.

    Lol! I actually thought that was pretty funny. But then so was 'stupid woman' which would have been fairy nuff in the mouth of somebody less balls-achingly PC as Corbyn.
    Agreed. You cannot get huffy about one and not the other.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 25,196
    Sean_F said:

    I was beginning to wobble in my prediction that we wont in the end actually leave the EU.

    Rentoul has cheered me up no end:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-referendum-final-say-leave-split-remain-a8713046.html

    That could happen, but to prevent Brexit, I think one needs a change of government.
    I thought that until Theresa May was made bombproof within her party for a year courtesy of the ERG. Much depends on what Theresa May would do if her deal is decisively defeated. Offering it to the country for a referendum looks one of the likelier possibilities.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 44,644

    Have we done this?

    A new YouGov poll of 25,000 people has found that the Tories are now on 40 points - while Jeremy Corbyn's Labour are lagging behind on just 34 points.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6562311/Tories-six-point-lead-Labour-despite-Brexit-civil-war.html

    I don't believe it to be possible, in the present climate. Ok that's my gut vs polling which, imperfect though it is, is generally better than mere gut feeling, but I just cannot believe that, for instance, Corbyn dragging his feat on second referendum support could see such a drop, resulting in the Tories, this divided, barely coherent Tory party, so far ahead.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 15,007
    Foxy said:

    justin124 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Yorkcity said:

    kinabalu said:

    It is fascinating, isn't it? Blair, what a phenom. A politician with sustained popularity ratings equal to that of apple crumble and custard on a winter's afternoon. Amazing. Will we ever see the like again?

    No, there will never be another Tone. The stars aligned amazingly in his favour:

    End of an unprecedentedly long, yet often divisive, era of Tory rule.

    Tories rancorous and divided over Maggie's ousting.

    Tories dubious about or downright hostile to her wishy washy replacement.

    Sexual and financial Tory sleaze (real or imagined) all around.

    Tory MPs popping off at regular intervals, providing lots of juicy by-elections to feed the narrative.

    The dramatic calamity of Black Wednesday.

    A feverishly hostile press consumed with blood lust.

    A government with a tiny, or non-existent, majority held to ransom by fringe euro-sceptic fanatics.

    The British Left in retreat, allowing Tone to concentrate fully on his right flank.
    If you could ignore Iraq - and that is some caveat - he was actually a pretty decent PM.
    True best PM in my lifetime .
    Personally I'd go for Major, although he was regularly stymied by the dysfunctional state of his Party.
    Thatcher, for me.
    She was the worst - and by far the most venal - in my lifetime.
    Do you understand the meaning of 'venal'?

    Thatcher was many things, but there is little to no evidence she was willing to behave in a way that is not honest or moral in exchange for money.

    https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/venal

    If anyone came closest to that it was Blair - and I don't remotely think he was.
    Mark Thatchers role in the al Yamamah arms deal negotiated by his mother springs to mind.

    Mark could, apparently, do little wrong in his mothers eyes.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 25,196
    On topic, I’m really enjoying these articles.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 34,434
    kle4 said:

    Have we done this?

    A new YouGov poll of 25,000 people has found that the Tories are now on 40 points - while Jeremy Corbyn's Labour are lagging behind on just 34 points.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6562311/Tories-six-point-lead-Labour-despite-Brexit-civil-war.html

    I don't believe it to be possible, in the present climate. Ok that's my gut vs polling which, imperfect though it is, is generally better than mere gut feeling, but I just cannot believe that, for instance, Corbyn dragging his feat on second referendum support could see such a drop, resulting in the Tories, this divided, barely coherent Tory party, so far ahead.
    I think it is down to all the rich Corbynista types currently away on their ski holidays in their second home chalets.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 7,242
    corporeal said:

    I don't think Maggie's reputation will pass the test of time as well as I once thought. I know of ardent admirers of her back then who now express reservations or downright hostility. Yes, she dragged Britain from the mire of the 1970s, but that seems increasingly like a battle of its time. Pointing to an enduring legacy is more difficult.

    The enduring legacy is in the attitude towards the workforce and economic priorities.

    There's the obvious decrease of union power, but also before her there was a focus on full employment as a requirement and then controlling inflation as an aspiration. Since her controlling inflation is the requirement and high employment is an aspiration.

    The "Labour isn't working" was one of the most cynically dishonest campaigns ever (and only really took off because of Dennis Healey making a fuss about it).
    And for most of her last year in office inflation was actually higher than in Callaghan's final year.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,536

    Have we done this?

    A new YouGov poll of 25,000 people has found that the Tories are now on 40 points - while Jeremy Corbyn's Labour are lagging behind on just 34 points.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6562311/Tories-six-point-lead-Labour-despite-Brexit-civil-war.html

    Waiting for the tables to be available to dig through.

    And also to file a complaint about the timing.
  • kinabalu said:

    It is fascinating, isn't it? Blair, what a phenom. A politician with sustained popularity ratings equal to that of apple crumble and custard on a winter's afternoon. Amazing. Will we ever see the like again?

    No, there will never be another Tone. The stars aligned amazingly in his favour:

    End of an unprecedentedly long, yet often divisive, era of Tory rule.

    Tories rancorous and divided over Maggie's ousting.

    Tories dubious about or downright hostile to her wishy washy replacement.

    Sexual and financial Tory sleaze (real or imagined) all around.

    Tory MPs popping off at regular intervals, providing lots of juicy by-elections to feed the narrative.

    The dramatic calamity of Black Wednesday.

    A feverishly hostile press consumed with blood lust.

    A government with a tiny, or non-existent, majority held to ransom by fringe euro-sceptic fanatics.

    The British Left in retreat, allowing Tone to concentrate fully on his right flank.
    If you could ignore Iraq - and that is some caveat - he was actually a pretty decent PM.
    Let's not forget that Blair won a majority AFTER Iraq. Looking back, that result is more remarkable than the two landslides.
    I wonder how much 2005 was actually Gordon's election. Amazing to think that at the time many regarded Tony's premiership as merely a kind of warm-up act - preparation for the golden age of Brown that was to come.
    I know I posted that Blair made one mistake but in fact there were two significant ones. Iraq, of course, and why he backed Bush, God alone knows. However his other was hanging on and making Brown wait. If it hadn't been for Iraq, of course, Brown might have led the party into the 2005 election.
    Interesting light shed on both those, Stark, in Andrew Rawnesly's excellent book The End Of The Party.

    Blair and Clinton were very close. When Bush was elected, Clinton warned Blair that you could only be for or against him - nothing in the middle. Blair decided (disastrously) that he had to be for.
    Blair once asked Alex Ferguson what he would do with a star player who would not support the Manager, or play for the Team. Fergy said get rid of him. Blair asked 'what if you can't'. 'Then you have a problem', the great man replied.

    Now I wonder who Blair had in mind?
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,536
    edited January 6

    Foxy said:

    justin124 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Yorkcity said:

    kinabalu said:

    It is fascinating, isn't it? Blair, what a phenom. A politician with sustained popularity ratings equal to that of apple crumble and custard on a winter's afternoon. Amazing. Will we ever see the like again?

    No, there will never be another Tone. The stars aligned amazingly in his favour:

    End of an unprecedentedly long, yet often divisive, era of Tory rule.

    Tories rancorous and divided over Maggie's ousting.

    Tories dubious about or downright hostile to her wishy washy replacement.

    Sexual and financial Tory sleaze (real or imagined) all around.

    Tory MPs popping off at regular intervals, providing lots of juicy by-elections to feed the narrative.

    The dramatic calamity of Black Wednesday.

    A feverishly hostile press consumed with blood lust.

    A government with a tiny, or non-existent, majority held to ransom by fringe euro-sceptic fanatics.

    The British Left in retreat, allowing Tone to concentrate fully on his right flank.
    If you could ignore Iraq - and that is some caveat - he was actually a pretty decent PM.
    True best PM in my lifetime .
    Personally I'd go for Major, although he was regularly stymied by the dysfunctional state of his Party.
    Thatcher, for me.
    She was the worst - and by far the most venal - in my lifetime.
    Do you understand the meaning of 'venal'?

    Thatcher was many things, but there is little to no evidence she was willing to behave in a way that is not honest or moral in exchange for money.

    https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/venal

    If anyone came closest to that it was Blair - and I don't remotely think he was.
    Mark Thatchers role in the al Yamamah arms deal negotiated by his mother springs to mind.

    Mark could, apparently, do little wrong in his mothers eyes.
    And a lot wrong in everyone else's?
    And a lot wrong behind her back?

    or maybe:

    And little right etc etc.

    There's a quip in there somewhere.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 14,061

    Sean_F said:

    I was beginning to wobble in my prediction that we wont in the end actually leave the EU.

    Rentoul has cheered me up no end:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-referendum-final-say-leave-split-remain-a8713046.html

    That could happen, but to prevent Brexit, I think one needs a change of government.
    I thought that until Theresa May was made bombproof within her party for a year courtesy of the ERG. Much depends on what Theresa May would do if her deal is decisively defeated. Offering it to the country for a referendum looks one of the likelier possibilities.
    A referendum would require Article 50 to be extended, which requires the unanimous consent of the 27 EU countries.

    What would they want in return? Wouldn't they want a clear choice on the Referendum question e.g. Remain or the Deal, No Deal being the default option if there is no referendum?

    One of the ironies of Taking Back Control is that we will, probably more than ever, need the consent of others for whatever it is that we finally decide we want to do.

  • justin124justin124 Posts: 7,242
    kle4 said:

    Have we done this?

    A new YouGov poll of 25,000 people has found that the Tories are now on 40 points - while Jeremy Corbyn's Labour are lagging behind on just 34 points.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6562311/Tories-six-point-lead-Labour-despite-Brexit-civil-war.html

    I don't believe it to be possible, in the present climate. Ok that's my gut vs polling which, imperfect though it is, is generally better than mere gut feeling, but I just cannot believe that, for instance, Corbyn dragging his feat on second referendum support could see such a drop, resulting in the Tories, this divided, barely coherent Tory party, so far ahead.
    Bank Holiday polling is not reliable. Moreover, this was carried out over a two week period - three or four times as extended a period than is normal.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,144
    edited January 6
    kle4 said:

    Have we done this?

    A new YouGov poll of 25,000 people has found that the Tories are now on 40 points - while Jeremy Corbyn's Labour are lagging behind on just 34 points.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6562311/Tories-six-point-lead-Labour-despite-Brexit-civil-war.html

    I don't believe it to be possible, in the present climate. Ok that's my gut vs polling which, imperfect though it is, is generally better than mere gut feeling, but I just cannot believe that, for instance, Corbyn dragging his feat on second referendum support could see such a drop, resulting in the Tories, this divided, barely coherent Tory party, so far ahead.
    It's YouGov, they had us 5 points behind on their poll before the last one whilst others have us level or ahead. Doesn't mean YouGov is wrong but they are an outlier and have been the best Tory worst Labour pollster for a while.

    Edit: Also to say enjoying the articles!
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 5,507
    Best PMs? Too easy to be subjective. How about including potential PMs? I'd go for a piss-pot rather than a teetotaller every time. Churchill achieved his war aims, and Charlie Kennedy had his head screwed on when sober.

    I'd eliminate the Greens as well - too many vegans and other assorted weirdos. Juncker and George Brown perhaps a bit to keen on the bottle, but you'd need to be pissed to do the job.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 56,070
    A poll of Tory Party members by Queen Mary University, London, and Sussex University for their Party Members' Project finds Boris Johnson Tory members preferred candidate to succeed May on 20%. Rees-Mogg is second on 15%, Davis third on 8%. Javid was the only former Remainer in the top 5

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/05/labour-faces-mass-challenge-over-brexit-policy-second-referendum
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 34,434
    How the UK joined the dots from Salisbury Novichok attack to Vladimir Putin

    The Russian intelligence agency behind the Salisbury nerve agent attack has been dismantled in the UK and will remain out of action for years to come, according to government sources.

    The threat posed by the GRU, which carried out the attempted assassination of Skripal last March, has been severely curtailed as a result of the counter-terror investigation that exposed the agents who carried out the attack.

    Separate sources have told The Telegraph that details of the plot have been well established, including the chain of command...

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/01/06/uk-joined-dots-salisbury-novichok-attack-vladimir-putin/

    Seamus and Jezza still aren't convinced and require more evidence.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 8,603
    edited January 6
    If I have understood the parliamentary calendar correctly for next week, it looks like the debate on the WA will not start until Wednesday afternoon, after PMQs.

    https://calendar.parliament.uk/calendar/Commons/All/2019/1/9/Daily

    Why the rush? - there's still nearly 12 weeks to go after all.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 20,219

    kinabalu said:

    It is fascinating, isn't it? Blair, what a phenom. A politician with sustained popularity ratings equal to that of apple crumble and custard on a winter's afternoon. Amazing. Will we ever see the like again?

    No, there will never be another Tone. The stars aligned amazingly in his favour:

    End of an unprecedentedly long, yet often divisive, era of Tory rule.

    Tories rancorous and divided over Maggie's ousting.

    Tories dubious about or downright hostile to her wishy washy replacement.

    Sexual and financial Tory sleaze (real or imagined) all around.

    Tory MPs popping off at regular intervals, providing lots of juicy by-elections to feed the narrative.

    The dramatic calamity of Black Wednesday.

    A feverishly hostile press consumed with blood lust.

    A government with a tiny, or non-existent, majority held to ransom by fringe euro-sceptic fanatics.

    The British Left in retreat, allowing Tone to concentrate fully on his right flank.
    If you could ignore Iraq - and that is some caveat - he was actually a pretty decent PM.
    Let's not forget that Blair won a majority AFTER Iraq. Looking back, that result is more remarkable than the two landslides.
    I wonder how much 2005 was actually Gordon's election. Amazing to think that at the time many regarded Tony's premiership as merely a kind of warm-up act - preparation for the golden age of Brown that was to come.
    I know I posted that Blair made one mistake but in fact there were two significant ones. Iraq, of course, and why he backed Bush, God alone knows. However his other was hanging on and making Brown wait. If it hadn't been for Iraq, of course, Brown might have led the party into the 2005 election.
    Interesting light shed on both those, Stark, in Andrew Rawnesly's excellent book The End Of The Party.

    Blair and Clinton were very close. When Bush was elected, Clinton warned Blair that you could only be for or against him - nothing in the middle. Blair decided (disastrously) that he had to be for.
    Blair once asked Alex Ferguson what he would do with a star player who would not support the Manager, or play for the Team. Fergy said get rid of him. Blair asked 'what if you can't'. 'Then you have a problem', the great man replied.

    Now I wonder who Blair had in mind?
    Jaap Stam, David Beckham or Christiano Ronaldo?

    The class difference between Ferguson and Blair is immense. The former was prepared to sell title winning legends. The latter wasn't willing to sack a disgruntled Chancellor while the PM had a landslide majority.
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