On topic, I would certainly agree that the EU are not our enemy at present. But I believe Cyclefree makes a mistake in forgetting Palmerston's maxim;
“Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests.”
Too many people regard the EU as our friends. Just like those regarding them as our enemies they are sorely mistaken.
In a world with a Nationalistic US, a strong Chinese dictatorship and resource-rich totalitarians to the East and South-East, I find it quite easy to conclude that middle-sized European democracies have shared interests, and might best pursue those interests by forming a Union.
It is a shame that pro-Europeans never made this argument to the British people and, even now, are resorting to the "there is no alternative" argument.
"You never get it right, do you? You’re either crawling all over them, licking their boots, or spitting poison at them like some Benzedrine puff adder.”
Similar to Churchill's observation (not his own I believe): 'The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet'.
Mr. Me, ironically, that's a bit like the amorphous nature of the collective Leave vote in the referendum. It's more against something (or two somethings) than for something.
And one can oppose China (or be wary, at least) without thinking constantly handing over national sovereignty to the EU is a good idea.
With all due respect, you may as well have had said nothing at all.
I love my Macbook Pro and iPhone and would not feel comfortable buying any other company’s products in this area.
And that's fair enough - though I'd question why you want to get locked ito one (expensive) vendor in that manner. But don't pretend that they are in any way a good company for the industry, and behave well.
IMO (and it is an opinion) they're not that good for their customers, either.
I’ve used Apple products for over 15 years and whilst I recognise their support and customer care has declined signficiantly in recent years, it is still far superior for me, as a customer, to be able to go into town, into an Apple shop, years after the warranty has ended to get support and repairs for a reasonable price.
The alternative is sending the product away in a box to China and hoping for the best.
I don’t care if the devices are not repairable by others as long as they work well, get updates for years and years and years and are of good quality.
Indeed. The fact that they have a clear and tangible high street presence sets them apart.
I loathe their new phones because of their lack of 3.5mm jack. So, I just replaced my 6s Plus 128GB... with a brand new 6s Plus 128GB. Arguably the best all-round phone ever made. Still fetches a very good price reconditioned as I discovered to my joy recently!
I agree that the company isn't what it was, but they still make excellent products that, for the most part, just work.
Indeed. Although that very same individual threatened other posters with violence by proxy on more than one occasion.
To be fair I did actually end up in the police cells and hospital for punching NF supporters in the early 1980s. These days I would be a lot more circumspect (code for cowardly in this case) given my physique.
@Anazina unfortunately I think the days of the headphone jack are numbered. I have the iPhone 8 and do not miss it. I use Airpods for everything from listening to music to as a hands-free in the car.
On topic, Brexit has always been about what Leavers didn't want. There is no coherence about what they want, which is why it is has coalesced into a miasma of nihilism.
Brexit was just as much about Remainers inability to convince voters why staying in was to their benefit.
You seem still to be fighting the referendum battle, which rather proves Alastair's point. Whether or not you find them persuasive, advocates of Remain were, and are quite clear about what they want.
Care to explain the Leave agenda ?
There is no Leave agenda
Leave was a statement by a ,majority of voters that the current system doesnt work for them and that change is needed.
Yes but what "change"?
Peter Kellner had it spot in when commenting on the recent YouGov poll showing Remain 26% ahead of May's deal and 16% of No Deal.
"This pattern is familiar to referendums in different countries: many people support the broad idea of change, but back away when the details are laid out. They want “change”, but not “this change”.
The leave campaigns offered inconsistent and contradictory Brexit outcomes. Very easy to blame all the ills of the "left behind" on the EU. Quite another to come up with remedies. Leavers never had a plan going forward, they still don't and they still arguing amongst themselves about what to do. Gradually people are seeing it for what it is.
Leave had as much of a plan as Remain. The difference being that Leave won. If Remain had won you can be 100% certain that what we would have remained in would very quickly turn out to be nothing like what was promised by Cameron.
There is also the point that the person enacting Leave was not part of the Leave campaign so what she is producing has very little to do with what most Leave voters might have wanted. There were coherent Leave plans but they have never been given a hearing by those in position to actually enact them.
Doesn't really answer Kellner's central point that referendums often indicate that people want change but beyond that can't agree on what that change should be. Sums up exactly where we are with Brexit.
Proposals to bar students without three Ds at A-level would hit courses such as nursing and ‘strike at heart of social mobility’
The ideas have been leaked from the prime minister’s review of post-18 education, chaired by Philip Augar, a former equities broker, which is expected to report next month. One idea would stop young people qualifying for a loan if they didn’t get three Ds at A-level.
Last year nearly 8,000 UK 18-year-olds were accepted to study at university with 3Ds or lower, according to new data released by the admissions service Ucas last month. Universities say these applicants are much more likely to be from poorer families.
It is just me, or it is not ever so slightly concerning that 3 Ds is enough to get you on a nursing course in the first place! And social mobility, if you can't get 3 Ds, should you be going to uni full time regardless of where you come from?
I agree.
3Ds means you should be working at McDonalds or getting a place at Oxford.
I don't have a degree, and think that those who sneer at people without degrees or poor qualifications should go and work in their natural habitat, the sewers.
Except those who buy Apple products. They are, naturally, excellent lads and lasses.
You see you were spot on until you mentioned Apple products. Now I doubt your sanity
Apple is a wonderful company. I've never, ever, said that they steal and sell overpriced tat to idiots who care more about form than function.
There are several people on this forum who don't buy Apple products, yet are weirdly obsessed with Apple.
If you don't like a product, nobody is forcing you to buy it, just buy something else.
It really is that simple.
Heaven forbid that Apple should ever produce a vegan sausage roll.
(It would cost £50, be indistinguishable in appearance or taste from any of the others on the market, have a glossy advertising campaign featuring clear-skinned athletic models of all ages, races and gender identities nibbling at it and it would crumble in your hands before you got it into your mouth.)
And you'd have to eat it with a specially designed fork that couldn't be used for other companies' savouries, or older Apple baked products.
Nope. I have never been a fanatical supporter of the EU, I always regarded myself as a moderate Eurosceptic, and recognised there are plenty of faults with the EU, as with our own system. I just think that exiting the EU has virtually no upside for the UK, and I am still waiting for someone that can propose an argument in favour of Brexit that can not be dismantled by an intelligent 10 year old.
That is a complete oxymoron. The Remainer's form of Brexit is cancellation.
Your form of Brexit is cancellation. May and Robbins (both Remainers) form of Brexit is different. BINO.
No. May and Robbins are delivering Brexit. YOU may not like the version they picked (I do not any version) but it is what was voted for.
This is Brexit. You have two flavours to choose from - May's version or WTO. The Tory members seem to favour WTO.
Leavers have what they wished for. This is not, under any conceivable interpretation "Remain". Remain has one meaning only. Cancel A50 and continue as part of the EU.
I agree with all but one point. The EU in normal circumstances may not be an enemy, but the EU at present trying to essentially economically annex Northern Ireland is at best hostile if not an enemy. It needs to be treated as such unless or until a civilised, respectful alternative can be found.
Its not necessary, but its the situation we find ourselves in and will continue to find ourselves in unless or until we stand up for ourselves.
Wouldn't it be simpler if the rest of the UK just divested of Northern Ireland? Frankly, we'd get a second large financial dividend, and dealing with the awkward buggers would become someone else's problem...
and youll be selling it to whom ?
I doubt the Leavers care very much about Norn Iron. Nothing - absolutely nothing - must get in the way of ensuring England's splendid isolation from reality and a retreat into the past that the UK leaves. Divesting themselves of a small foreign country outlying province is a price worth paying.
its been that way for as long as I can remember and Im 58 this year
Good article. Strategic planning is not our strong suit. We cannot even agree an approach to the basics of energy, social care and transport. But one mustn't grumble too much. The deficiency is inevitable given our domestic politics of hung parliaments and starkly contrasting views on what the UK should be all about. The execution of long term strategies requires protracted and stable periods of being governed by people of similar mind, free from the badgering of the likes of the DUP. That is not going to happen here for the foreseeable future. So whether it's Matt Hancock's 10 year plan for the NHS, or John McDonnell's enticing talk of a 15 year project of National Renewal, the same applies. For the birds.
@Anazina unfortunately I think the days of the headphone jack are numbered. I have the iPhone 8 and do not miss it. I use Airpods for everything from listening to music to as a hands-free in the car.
If you use DJ software, like listening to music in hotel rooms, and/or require a lag-free hardwire connection for some other reason, you really do miss it. Bluetooth is a lossy technology – a hardwire is always going to be better, and does not require ancillary power.
Granted the 3.5mm won't last forever but I figure can squeeze out another three years or so by sticking with the 6s Plus, which is an awesome phone and does everything I need of it.
I will agree with you on that when we actually do Leave (and yes May's Leave would of course be Leave). At the moment the jury is definitely out on whether it will happen.
True, but the Leavers cannot say that Mrs May is not trying. Her true test will come if her deal fails. If she charges towards the cliff then all bets are off....
I agree with all but one point. The EU in normal circumstances may not be an enemy, but the EU at present trying to essentially economically annex Northern Ireland is at best hostile if not an enemy. It needs to be treated as such unless or until a civilised, respectful alternative can be found.
Its not necessary, but its the situation we find ourselves in and will continue to find ourselves in unless or until we stand up for ourselves.
Wouldn't it be simpler if the rest of the UK just divested of Northern Ireland? Frankly, we'd get a second large financial dividend, and dealing with the awkward buggers would become someone else's problem...
and youll be selling it to whom ?
I doubt the Leavers care very much about Norn Iron. Nothing - absolutely nothing - must get in the way of ensuring England's splendid isolation from reality and a retreat into the past that the UK leaves. Divesting themselves of a small foreign country outlying province is a price worth paying.
its been that way for as long as I can remember and Im 58 this year
The only reason Northern Ireland is still in the UK is because, shibboleths aside, the Republic doesn’t want it either.
Why are Brexiteers so obsessed by the war (either WW1 or 2)? Did they read too many war comics as children?
Yes. And probably too many movies where the Germans where evil sadists and plucky British Commandos fed only on bully beef dispatched them by the regiment. Bad eggs the lot of them.....
Anyway, I will wait for the next thread to see if anything changes around here.
On topic, I would certainly agree that the EU are not our enemy at present. But I believe Cyclefree makes a mistake in forgetting Palmerston's maxim;
“Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests.”
Too many people regard the EU as our friends. Just like those regarding them as our enemies they are sorely mistaken.
In a world with a Nationalistic US, a strong Chinese dictatorship and resource-rich totalitarians to the East and South-East, I find it quite easy to conclude that middle-sized European democracies have shared interests, and might best pursue those interests by forming a Union.
It is a shame that pro-Europeans never made this argument to the British people and, even now, are resorting to the "there is no alternative" argument.
it depends on the type of union. A confederacy a la suisse we could happily live with
Whilst I agree with the thrust of Ms Cyclefree's article, I don't think her initial paragraph is right. There was no way that the UK could have joined at the start. Quite apart from anything else, in 1958 (two years before Macmillan's landmark 'winds of change' speech) we didn't have imperial pretensions, we had imperial possessions and a huge network of imperial and ex-imperial links. The whole nation was oriented in trade and outlook across the seas, something which persisted into the mid-sixties (I'm just old enough to remember it!). It would have been impossible to put ourselves into the heart of the new continental European project in 1958, let alone in 1952 when the project really started with the European Coal and Steel Community.
Not just trade - personal and family relationships. Perhaps it was more pronounced in Scotland - but as a child Christmas brought presents and cards from relations in the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. And when they visited they were noticeably better off than we were.
Even today the 'British Diaspora' is dominated by the Anglosphere - Australia, the US, Canada and New Zealand four of the top 5 outside the British Isles (2.8 million). After Spain (700,000 pensioners, or so we're told), France (200,000) and Germany (115,000) are the only other countries with above 100,000. Canada has twice as many as France & Germany combined. We've long had and exercised 'freedom of movement' - just not within Europe.
Yes, indeed. Younger people now won't really comprehend just how extensive a typical family's relationship with far-flung parts of the empire and commonwealth was up until the mid-sixties.
My family might not be typical (Hong Kong attracting smaller numbers than the Anglosphere as a whole) but while at school in South London I met many people with family backgrounds in a wide variety of ex-Empire outposts: India, Ghana, Jamaica, etc. That is the reality of modern Britain for the urban youth - but it doesn't stop them from being pro-EU too.
On topic, I would certainly agree that the EU are not our enemy at present. But I believe Cyclefree makes a mistake in forgetting Palmerston's maxim;
“Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests.”
Too many people regard the EU as our friends. Just like those regarding them as our enemies they are sorely mistaken.
In a world with a Nationalistic US, a strong Chinese dictatorship and resource-rich totalitarians to the East and South-East, I find it quite easy to conclude that middle-sized European democracies have shared interests, and might best pursue those interests by forming a Union.
It is a shame that pro-Europeans never made this argument to the British people and, even now, are resorting to the "there is no alternative" argument.
it depends on the type of union. A confederacy a la suisse we could happily live with
A confederacy a la suisse would mean "more Europe" than we currently have now.
That is a complete oxymoron. The Remainer's form of Brexit is cancellation.
Your form of Brexit is cancellation. May and Robbins (both Remainers) form of Brexit is different. BINO.
No. May and Robbins are delivering Brexit. YOU may not like the version they picked (I do not any version) but it is what was voted for.
This is Brexit. You have two flavours to choose from - May's version or WTO. The Tory members seem to favour WTO.
Leavers have what they wished for. This is not, under any conceivable interpretation "Remain". Remain has one meaning only. Cancel A50 and continue as part of the EU.
I will shock you by agreeing with you. This is by no means a great Brexit and better was available (though I know you will probably disagree) but it is most certainly Brexit and given the risks of Remain it would be better for all Leavers to get behind it.
That is a complete oxymoron. The Remainer's form of Brexit is cancellation.
Your form of Brexit is cancellation. May and Robbins (both Remainers) form of Brexit is different. BINO.
No. May and Robbins are delivering Brexit. YOU may not like the version they picked (I do not any version) but it is what was voted for.
This is Brexit. You have two flavours to choose from - May's version or WTO. The Tory members seem to favour WTO.
Leavers have what they wished for. This is not, under any conceivable interpretation "Remain". Remain has one meaning only. Cancel A50 and continue as part of the EU.
I will shock you by agreeing with you. This is by no means a great Brexit and better was available (though I know you will probably disagree) but it is most certainly Brexit and given the risks of Remain it would be better for all Leavers to get behind it.
I agree with all but one point. The EU in normal circumstances may not be an enemy, but the EU at present trying to essentially economically annex Northern Ireland is at best hostile if not an enemy. It needs to be treated as such unless or until a civilised, respectful alternative can be found.
Its not necessary, but its the situation we find ourselves in and will continue to find ourselves in unless or until we stand up for ourselves.
Wouldn't it be simpler if the rest of the UK just divested of Northern Ireland? Frankly, we'd get a second large financial dividend, and dealing with the awkward buggers would become someone else's problem...
and youll be selling it to whom ?
I doubt the Leavers care very much about Norn Iron. Nothing - absolutely nothing - must get in the way of ensuring England's splendid isolation from reality and a retreat into the past that the UK leaves. Divesting themselves of a small foreign country outlying province is a price worth paying.
its been that way for as long as I can remember and Im 58 this year
The only reason Northern Ireland is still in the UK is because, shibboleths aside, the Republic doesn’t want it either.
yup
Coveney has been bricking it as SF have tried to talk up a border poll and has been doing his damnedest to say we dont want it without actually saying we dont want it
On topic, I would certainly agree that the EU are not our enemy at present. But I believe Cyclefree makes a mistake in forgetting Palmerston's maxim;
“Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests.”
Too many people regard the EU as our friends. Just like those regarding them as our enemies they are sorely mistaken.
In a world with a Nationalistic US, a strong Chinese dictatorship and resource-rich totalitarians to the East and South-East, I find it quite easy to conclude that middle-sized European democracies have shared interests, and might best pursue those interests by forming a Union.
It is a shame that pro-Europeans never made this argument to the British people and, even now, are resorting to the "there is no alternative" argument.
it depends on the type of union. A confederacy a la suisse we could happily live with
A confederacy a la suisse would mean "more Europe" than we currently have now.
it would mean a small centre, localised control and the bureaucracy doing what it was told and not what suits it
This whole endevour just represents the stupidity of a government holding a referendum when it was in favour of the status quo. There should never ever be another referendum without the the government supporting the change and therefore having a clear plan of action following approval.
On topic, I would certainly agree that the EU are not our enemy at present. But I believe Cyclefree makes a mistake in forgetting Palmerston's maxim;
“Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests.”
Too many people regard the EU as our friends. Just like those regarding them as our enemies they are sorely mistaken.
In a world with a Nationalistic US, a strong Chinese dictatorship and resource-rich totalitarians to the East and South-East, I find it quite easy to conclude that middle-sized European democracies have shared interests, and might best pursue those interests by forming a Union.
It is a shame that pro-Europeans never made this argument to the British people and, even now, are resorting to the "there is no alternative" argument.
it depends on the type of union. A confederacy a la suisse we could happily live with
A confederacy a la suisse would mean "more Europe" than we currently have now.
it would mean a small centre, localised control and the bureaucracy doing what it was told and not what suits it
On topic, I would certainly agree that the EU are not our enemy at present. But I believe Cyclefree makes a mistake in forgetting Palmerston's maxim;
“Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests.”
Too many people regard the EU as our friends. Just like those regarding them as our enemies they are sorely mistaken.
In a world with a Nationalistic US, a strong Chinese dictatorship and resource-rich totalitarians to the East and South-East, I find it quite easy to conclude that middle-sized European democracies have shared interests, and might best pursue those interests by forming a Union.
It is a shame that pro-Europeans never made this argument to the British people and, even now, are resorting to the "there is no alternative" argument.
it depends on the type of union. A confederacy a la suisse we could happily live with
A confederacy a la suisse would mean "more Europe" than we currently have now.
it would mean a small centre, localised control and the bureaucracy doing what it was told and not what suits it
On topic, I would certainly agree that the EU are not our enemy at present. But I believe Cyclefree makes a mistake in forgetting Palmerston's maxim;
“Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests.”
Too many people regard the EU as our friends. Just like those regarding them as our enemies they are sorely mistaken.
In a world with a Nationalistic US, a strong Chinese dictatorship and resource-rich totalitarians to the East and South-East, I find it quite easy to conclude that middle-sized European democracies have shared interests, and might best pursue those interests by forming a Union.
It is a shame that pro-Europeans never made this argument to the British people and, even now, are resorting to the "there is no alternative" argument.
it depends on the type of union. A confederacy a la suisse we could happily live with
A confederacy a la suisse would mean "more Europe" than we currently have now.
it would mean a small centre, localised control and the bureaucracy doing what it was told and not what suits it
Control of interest rates would be where?
London
So London will be the capital of this confederacy, or are you just alluding to the power of the markets?
On topic, I would certainly agree that the EU are not our enemy at present. But I believe Cyclefree makes a mistake in forgetting Palmerston's maxim;
“Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests.”
Too many people regard the EU as our friends. Just like those regarding them as our enemies they are sorely mistaken.
In a world with a Nationalistic US, a strong Chinese dictatorship and resource-rich totalitarians to the East and South-East, I find it quite easy to conclude that middle-sized European democracies have shared interests, and might best pursue those interests by forming a Union.
It is a shame that pro-Europeans never made this argument to the British people and, even now, are resorting to the "there is no alternative" argument.
it depends on the type of union. A confederacy a la suisse we could happily live with
A confederacy a la suisse would mean "more Europe" than we currently have now.
it would mean a small centre, localised control and the bureaucracy doing what it was told and not what suits it
Control of interest rates would be where?
London
So London will be the capital of this confederacy, or are you just alluding to the power of the markets?
as the biggest financial centre by far it makes sense
On topic, I would certainly agree that the EU are not our enemy at present. But I believe Cyclefree makes a mistake in forgetting Palmerston's maxim;
“Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests.”
Too many people regard the EU as our friends. Just like those regarding them as our enemies they are sorely mistaken.
In a world with a Nationalistic US, a strong Chinese dictatorship and resource-rich totalitarians to the East and South-East, I find it quite easy to conclude that middle-sized European democracies have shared interests, and might best pursue those interests by forming a Union.
It is a shame that pro-Europeans never made this argument to the British people and, even now, are resorting to the "there is no alternative" argument.
it depends on the type of union. A confederacy a la suisse we could happily live with
A confederacy a la suisse would mean "more Europe" than we currently have now.
it would mean a small centre, localised control and the bureaucracy doing what it was told and not what suits it
Control of interest rates would be where?
London
So London will be the capital of this confederacy, or are you just alluding to the power of the markets?
as the biggest financial centre by far it makes sense
On topic, I would certainly agree that the EU are not our enemy at present. But I believe Cyclefree makes a mistake in forgetting Palmerston's maxim;
“Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests.”
Too many people regard the EU as our friends. Just like those regarding them as our enemies they are sorely mistaken.
In a world with a Nationalistic US, a strong Chinese dictatorship and resource-rich totalitarians to the East and South-East, I find it quite easy to conclude that middle-sized European democracies have shared interests, and might best pursue those interests by forming a Union.
It is a shame that pro-Europeans never made this argument to the British people and, even now, are resorting to the "there is no alternative" argument.
it depends on the type of union. A confederacy a la suisse we could happily live with
A confederacy a la suisse would mean "more Europe" than we currently have now.
it would mean a small centre, localised control and the bureaucracy doing what it was told and not what suits it
Control of interest rates would be where?
London
So London will be the capital of this confederacy, or are you just alluding to the power of the markets?
as the biggest financial centre by far it makes sense
If only we hadn't missed the boat 20 years ago.
if wed taken that boat wed all be emigrating to Greece now looking for jobs. The UK would have destroyed the Euro.
@Anazina unfortunately I think the days of the headphone jack are numbered. I have the iPhone 8 and do not miss it. I use Airpods for everything from listening to music to as a hands-free in the car.
If you use DJ software, like listening to music in hotel rooms, and/or require a lag-free hardwire connection for some other reason, you really do miss it. Bluetooth is a lossy technology – a hardwire is always going to be better, and does not require ancillary power.
Granted the 3.5mm won't last forever but I figure can squeeze out another three years or so by sticking with the 6s Plus, which is an awesome phone and does everything I need of it.
I use the Lenovo P2A42, now discontinued I believe. Nothing has come close to its 5.1 Ampere Hour battery in the smartphone era.
With all due respect, you may as well have had said nothing at all.
I love my Macbook Pro and iPhone and would not feel comfortable buying any other company’s products in this area.
And that's fair enough - though I'd question why you want to get locked ito one (expensive) vendor in that manner. But don't pretend that they are in any way a good company for the industry, and behave well.
IMO (and it is an opinion) they're not that good for their customers, either.
I’ve used Apple products for over 15 years and whilst I recognise their support and customer care has declined signficiantly in recent years, it is still far superior for me, as a customer, to be able to go into town, into an Apple shop, years after the warranty has ended to get support and repairs for a reasonable price.
The alternative is sending the product away in a box to China and hoping for the best.
I don’t care if the devices are not repairable by others as long as they work well, get updates for years and years and years and are of good quality.
Mrs J had excellent service from the Samsung shop in Cambridge when her S6 went wrong a while back.
If their products are so shoddily built that access to a repair shop is a vital consideration for your purchase, perhaps you ought to consider a company that mes better products? Likewise, if you need to take it into a shop for support.
(runs for cover)
And their repairs are not cheap IME - and their warranty restrictions have historically been extremely unconsumer-friendly.
But that's away from my central point: as tech companies go they're fairly evil. Which is why they've managed to build up such a massive slush fund.
Oddly enough, they're only just starting to do some really innovative stuff, and sales have started slowing ...
The UK is overcentralised, Nowhere more so than England.
But my point is that England would dominate any UK ‘confederation’ and therefore what difference would it make compared to now?
I thought Alanbrooke was proposing a European confederation.
actually no
most european states can function quite happily with both devolved regions and sizeable minorities.If you want to go the next level down which Im not necessairly against then all have to do it and the bureaucracy has to to butchered.
I cant wait to see you talking to the french
wrt the UK problem the issue of overcentralisation can quite happily be managed by ourselves if we make that an objective. One thing which comes out from Brexit is the english regions have had enough of Westminster
I agree with all but one point. The EU in normal circumstances may not be an enemy, but the EU at present trying to essentially economically annex Northern Ireland is at best hostile if not an enemy. It needs to be treated as such unless or until a civilised, respectful alternative can be found.
Its not necessary, but its the situation we find ourselves in and will continue to find ourselves in unless or until we stand up for ourselves.
Wouldn't it be simpler if the rest of the UK just divested of Northern Ireland? Frankly, we'd get a second large financial dividend, and dealing with the awkward buggers would become someone else's problem...
and youll be selling it to whom ?
I doubt the Leavers care very much about Norn Iron. Nothing - absolutely nothing - must get in the way of ensuring England's splendid isolation from reality and a retreat into the past that the UK leaves. Divesting themselves of a small foreign country outlying province is a price worth paying.
its been that way for as long as I can remember and Im 58 this year
You know you're getting old when the policemenmajor generals avatars seem like youngsters.
I agree with all but one point. The EU in normal circumstances may not be an enemy, but the EU at present trying to essentially economically annex Northern Ireland is at best hostile if not an enemy. It needs to be treated as such unless or until a civilised, respectful alternative can be found.
Its not necessary, but its the situation we find ourselves in and will continue to find ourselves in unless or until we stand up for ourselves.
Wouldn't it be simpler if the rest of the UK just divested of Northern Ireland? Frankly, we'd get a second large financial dividend, and dealing with the awkward buggers would become someone else's problem...
and youll be selling it to whom ?
I doubt the Leavers care very much about Norn Iron. Nothing - absolutely nothing - must get in the way of ensuring England's splendid isolation from reality and a retreat into the past that the UK leaves. Divesting themselves of a small foreign country outlying province is a price worth paying.
its been that way for as long as I can remember and Im 58 this year
You know you're getting old when the policemenmajor generals avatars seem like youngsters.
@JosiasJessop I admit they have priced me out of the game in the last 12 months. I can’t justify their current prices to myself.
Fair enough. I don't want to criticise people who buy Apple products too much - it's a fair choice (though people who go on about paying a fortune for the latest model deserve a bit of ribbing). I just don't like the fanbois who don't care about the practices of the company they adore, and will excuse them of anything.
wrt the UK problem the issue of overcentralisation can quite happily be managed by ourselves if we make that an objective. One thing which comes out from Brexit is the english regions have had enough of Westminster
I don't think a sustainable solution as the UK is obvious. If you take the starting point as an independent Scotland and united Ireland, then it's a lot easier to imagine how a new constitution might work.
wrt the UK problem the issue of overcentralisation can quite happily be managed by ourselves if we make that an objective. One thing which comes out from Brexit is the english regions have had enough of Westminster
I don't think a sustainable solution as the UK is obvious. If you take the starting point as an independent Scotland and united Ireland, then it's a lot easier to imagine how a new constitution might work.
wrt the UK problem the issue of overcentralisation can quite happily be managed by ourselves if we make that an objective. One thing which comes out from Brexit is the english regions have had enough of Westminster
I don't think a sustainable solution as the UK is obvious. If you take the starting point as an independent Scotland and united Ireland, then it's a lot easier to imagine how a new constitution might work.
thats simply a refelction of your prejudices.
I would have given a different answer before the Brexit vote. The UK would have been sustainable if it had let sleeping dogs lie.
Mr. Glenn, the dogs were disturbed some time ago. Powers thrown to the EU happened time and again. A promised referendum never happened. Devolution could happen, but never for the English (unless you believe English devolution involves carving England up into little pieces, with each regional assembly far less powerful than Holyrood, and institutionalising political division within England).
For all the talk of English nationalism, there is no such party. There isn't even a serious political move for an English Parliament.
Mr. Glenn, the dogs were disturbed some time ago. Powers thrown to the EU happened time and again. A promised referendum never happened. Devolution could happen, but never for the English (unless you believe English devolution involves carving England up into little pieces, with each regional assembly far less powerful than Holyrood, and institutionalising political division within England).
For all the talk of English nationalism, there is no such party. There isn't even a serious political move for an English Parliament.
wrt the UK problem the issue of overcentralisation can quite happily be managed by ourselves if we make that an objective. One thing which comes out from Brexit is the english regions have had enough of Westminster
I don't think a sustainable solution as the UK is obvious. If you take the starting point as an independent Scotland and united Ireland, then it's a lot easier to imagine how a new constitution might work.
thats simply a refelction of your prejudices.
I would have given a different answer before the Brexit vote. The UK would have been sustainable if it had let sleeping dogs lie.
things change and time marches on none of us really know what will happen 5 or 10 years out
With all due respect, you may as well have had said nothing at all.
I love my Macbook Pro and iPhone and would not feel comfortable buying any other company’s products in this area.
And that's fair enough - though I'd question why you want to get locked ito one (expensive) vendor in that manner. But don't pretend that they are in any way a good company for the industry, and behave well.
IMO (and it is an opinion) they're not that good for their customers, either.
I’ve used Apple products for over 15 years and whilst I recognise their support and customer care has declined signficiantly in recent years, it is still far superior for me, as a customer, to be able to go into town, into an Apple shop, years after the warranty has ended to get support and repairs for a reasonable price.
The alternative is sending the product away in a box to China and hoping for the best.
I don’t care if the devices are not repairable by others as long as they work well, get updates for years and years and years and are of good quality.
I don't care about Apple really, that negatively or positively and I have had an Iphone in the past (second hand) but generally with Apple you pay a premium for the brand, there is some specialist software in regards to Macs you may need it for but outside of that you are paying extra for an apple logo.
Iphone perhaps has more arguments in its favour, or in the past anyway less sure about the newer versions.
I will agree with you on that when we actually do Leave (and yes May's Leave would of course be Leave). At the moment the jury is definitely out on whether it will happen.
True, but the Leavers cannot say that Mrs May is not trying.
Mrs May is very trying. Very fucking trying indeed.
Mr. Brooke, if memory serves, Bryant wanted to stop Welsh rugby fans from singing Delilah on the basis it glamorised/normalised domestic violence.
Rightly, the Welsh fans ignored him.
I'm not sure he's well-placed to judge the balance between lawful public dissent and harassment. But who knows? People can surprise on the upside as well as the downside.
Mr. Cocque, no, that's the underwater base from which the invasion will--
Mr. Brooke, if memory serves, Bryant wanted to stop Welsh rugby fans from singing Delilah on the basis it glamorised/normalised domestic violence.
Rightly, the Welsh fans ignored him.
I'm not sure he's well-placed to judge the balance between lawful public dissent and harassment. But who knows? People can surprise on the upside as well as the downside.
Mr. Cocque, no, that's the underwater base from which the invasion will--
Ahem.
Mr Bryant is all for free speech as long as it matches his views, anything else should be referred to the police
Government has accepted the Cooper amendment to the finance bill. Government all but certain to lose the vote; effectively depriving the government of supply in the event of a no-deal Brexit.
Government has accepted the Cooper amendment to the finance bill. Government all but certain to lose the vote; effectively depriving the government of supply in the event of a no-deal Brexit.
This government never loses a vote. They either postpone the vote or cave in.
Government has accepted the Cooper amendment to the finance bill. Government all but certain to lose the vote; effectively depriving the government of supply in the event of a no-deal Brexit.
Clever. Now if there is a No Deal the Government can point to the Cooper amendment and say they could have mitigated against its effects but were prevented from doing so by MPs.
I see La Soubry is milking her mobbing to the utmost
What a nasty comment. Just shows how being pro-Brexit makes you potty.
Curious why this is getting so much attention when it happens at every single Tory Party Conference without fuss.
Duh, that's because Tories are scum, and deserve to be spat on.
Whereas Tory MP Soubry is ... ?
I'd be amazed if this is the first time Soubry has been called a name by a protestor.
If you do a bit of a search of the internet there are some pretty ugly scenes from this crowd. I did a search via a post on here much earlier that took me to a twitter account with video of a black man being seriously harassed by the same people. A posting on that account identified a number of the individuals. I looked up one of them and he was a member of Britain First and the picture clearly showed it was the same person. I think it is fair to say their treatment of Soubry was (for them) the mild end of their behaviour. We are not at the name calling level, although I find it bizarre they called her a fascist.
Government has accepted the Cooper amendment to the finance bill. Government all but certain to lose the vote; effectively depriving the government of supply in the event of a no-deal Brexit.
Clever. Now if there is a No Deal the Government can point to the Cooper amendment and say they could have mitigated against its effects but were prevented from doing so by MPs.
One of those cases where you wonder what the MP's in question are trying to achieve.
Interesting thread. For my money, we could do far worse then remembering Palmerston's dictum that Richard paraphrased. If memory serves, the actual quote also said 'and no perpetual enemies', which is as worth remembering as not having any permanent allies. This statement, though it was made during a time of greater influence, actually still holds true, perhaps even more, when we're not the biggest fish in the pond.
Government has accepted the Cooper amendment to the finance bill. Government all but certain to lose the vote; effectively depriving the government of supply in the event of a no-deal Brexit.
Probability of UK leaving EU on 29 March is now down to 36% on Betfair. Brexit is sliding away.
Government has accepted the Cooper amendment to the finance bill. Government all but certain to lose the vote; effectively depriving the government of supply in the event of a no-deal Brexit.
Clever. Now if there is a No Deal the Government can point to the Cooper amendment and say they could have mitigated against its effects but were prevented from doing so by MPs.
One of those cases where you wonder what the MP's in question are trying to achieve.
Government has accepted the Cooper amendment to the finance bill. Government all but certain to lose the vote; effectively depriving the government of supply in the event of a no-deal Brexit.
Probability of UK leaving EU on 29 March is now down to 36% on Betfair. Brexit is sliding away.
Not surprisingly. Immediately after losing the Meaningful Vote is now clear that May will seek to extend Article 50 for a "pause for reflection" in the UK.
Brexiteers are going to lose their fucking minds, it's gonna be amazing.
I see La Soubry is milking her mobbing to the utmost
What a nasty comment. Just shows how being pro-Brexit makes you potty.
Brexit derangement syndrome now affects 99.7% of all adults.
I must be one of the 0.3% it doesn't
Indeed as we close in on the vote I am relieved as decisions will be made. I am content with TM deal or remain but not no deal and I suspect I will not be disappointed
I see La Soubry is milking her mobbing to the utmost
What a nasty comment. Just shows how being pro-Brexit makes you potty.
Curious why this is getting so much attention when it happens at every single Tory Party Conference without fuss.
Duh, that's because Tories are scum, and deserve to be spat on.
Whereas Tory MP Soubry is ... ?
I'd be amazed if this is the first time Soubry has been called a name by a protestor.
If you do a bit of a search of the internet there are some pretty ugly scenes from this crowd. I did a search via a post on here much earlier that took me to a twitter account with video of a black man being seriously harassed by the same people. A posting on that account identified a number of the individuals. I looked up one of them and he was a member of Britain First and the picture clearly showed it was the same person. I think it is fair to say their treatment of Soubry was (for them) the mild end of their behaviour. We are not at the name calling level, although I find it bizarre they called her a fascist.
I don't doubt these protestors are deplorable as are there actions and being subject to them is upsetting. Those who act like this and encourage this are inexcusable.
What makes me get a wry smile is why when similar or identical actions are orchestrated or encouraged by the likes of John McDonnell or Owen Jones then the victims are Tory scum who deserved it, but when the same actions are done by Britain First scum then action must be taken.
Whether orchestrated by Owen Jones/John McDonnell or Britain First this behaviour is disgusting. I'd like to see as much uproar next time the far left act like this.
Interesting thread. For my money, we could do far worse then remembering Palmerston's dictum that Richard paraphrased. If memory serves, the actual quote also said 'and no perpetual enemies', which is as worth remembering as not having any permanent allies. This statement, though it was made during a time of greater influence, actually still holds true, perhaps even more, when we're not the biggest fish in the pond.
Given his opposition to Irish independence, he might be shocked by the recent reversal of fortunes.
Government has accepted the Cooper amendment to the finance bill. Government all but certain to lose the vote; effectively depriving the government of supply in the event of a no-deal Brexit.
I am quite pleased and suspect TM will be content with that decision
Comments
It is a shame that pro-Europeans never made this argument to the British people and, even now, are resorting to the "there is no alternative" argument.
Similar to Churchill's observation (not his own I believe): 'The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet'.
Perhaps it's the Saxon in you English.
And one can oppose China (or be wary, at least) without thinking constantly handing over national sovereignty to the EU is a good idea.
Indeed. The fact that they have a clear and tangible high street presence sets them apart.
I loathe their new phones because of their lack of 3.5mm jack. So, I just replaced my 6s Plus 128GB... with a brand new 6s Plus 128GB. Arguably the best all-round phone ever made. Still fetches a very good price reconditioned as I discovered to my joy recently!
I agree that the company isn't what it was, but they still make excellent products that, for the most part, just work.
How droll
https://twitter.com/thomasknox/status/1082652052671680517
https://twitter.com/SkyNewsAust/status/1072392848740364289
"And there speaks the voice of a true fanatic".
Nope. I have never been a fanatical supporter of the EU, I always regarded myself as a moderate Eurosceptic, and recognised there are plenty of faults with the EU, as with our own system. I just think that exiting the EU has virtually no upside for the UK, and I am still waiting for someone that can propose an argument in favour of Brexit that can not be dismantled by an intelligent 10 year old.
This is Brexit. You have two flavours to choose from - May's version or WTO. The Tory members seem to favour WTO.
Leavers have what they wished for. This is not, under any conceivable interpretation "Remain". Remain has one meaning only. Cancel A50 and continue as part of the EU.
Granted the 3.5mm won't last forever but I figure can squeeze out another three years or so by sticking with the 6s Plus, which is an awesome phone and does everything I need of it.
Anyway, I will wait for the next thread to see if anything changes around here.
Coveney has been bricking it as SF have tried to talk up a border poll and has been doing his damnedest to say we dont want it without actually saying we dont want it
If their products are so shoddily built that access to a repair shop is a vital consideration for your purchase, perhaps you ought to consider a company that mes better products? Likewise, if you need to take it into a shop for support.
(runs for cover)
And their repairs are not cheap IME - and their warranty restrictions have historically been extremely unconsumer-friendly.
But that's away from my central point: as tech companies go they're fairly evil. Which is why they've managed to build up such a massive slush fund.
Oddly enough, they're only just starting to do some really innovative stuff, and sales have started slowing ...
I’ve obviously got the wrong end of the stick!
most european states can function quite happily with both devolved regions and sizeable minorities.If you want to go the next level down which Im not necessairly against then all have to do it and the bureaucracy has to to butchered.
I cant wait to see you talking to the french
wrt the UK problem the issue of overcentralisation can quite happily be managed by ourselves if we make that an objective. One thing which comes out from Brexit is the english regions have had enough of Westminster
policemenmajor generalsavatars seem like youngsters.https://twitter.com/mikeholden42/status/1082645606957531136?s=21
For all the talk of English nationalism, there is no such party. There isn't even a serious political move for an English Parliament.
The EU is closer to being a confederation, but it also has elements that are intergovernmental and unitary. It's a bit of a mishmash.
Iphone perhaps has more arguments in its favour, or in the past anyway less sure about the newer versions.
Damn it. I was hoping my statement would cause reality to amend itself accordingly.
Chris Bryant on Sky
Tear up their cards hopefully.
Rightly, the Welsh fans ignored him.
I'm not sure he's well-placed to judge the balance between lawful public dissent and harassment. But who knows? People can surprise on the upside as well as the downside.
Mr. Cocque, no, that's the underwater base from which the invasion will--
Ahem.
I'd be amazed if this is the first time Soubry has been called a name by a protestor.
Tories are entirely like you, just people. I'd suggest you try not to spit at anyone - it's undignified for you and them, but mainly for you.
(Any nasty pains you may get in your extremities or any sudden limb loss are nothing to do with any Tory voodoo - that's officially denied!)
https://twitter.com/jt2blackcab/status/1082380728481054721
https://twitter.com/MikeStuchbery_/status/1082304571580534786
Oh dear, how sad, never mind.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46798861
Brexit is sliding away.
We all have our off days.
If it is, auto-ticketing at 72mph seems rather harsh.
Brexiteers are going to lose their fucking minds, it's gonna be amazing.
Indeed as we close in on the vote I am relieved as decisions will be made. I am content with TM deal or remain but not no deal and I suspect I will not be disappointed
What makes me get a wry smile is why when similar or identical actions are orchestrated or encouraged by the likes of John McDonnell or Owen Jones then the victims are Tory scum who deserved it, but when the same actions are done by Britain First scum then action must be taken.
Whether orchestrated by Owen Jones/John McDonnell or Britain First this behaviour is disgusting. I'd like to see as much uproar next time the far left act like this.