One of the new intake of Democratic Congresswomen. From New York.
She's young, female, fun and unashamedly socialist. Republicans have ABSOLUTELY no idea how to counter her. Probable medium term POTUS, barring accidents.
AOC derangement syndrome is the conservative equivalent of Trump Derangement Syndrome.
Reports of Brexit's death are greatly exaggerated ( I regret to think). It is impossible that the Brexit cancer that is in the country's brain can easily be removed even by the greatest of brain surgeons, let alone Mr "2Es" Corbyn or Theresa "fields of wheat" May
Your metaphors simply reflect your own bleak outlook on the world as a whole.
Brexit is clear, flowing stream water, fresh from the chalk spring. However much you might try to dam it, it will always find a way to break through and refresh the souls of those who have come to drink from its pools. .
There now, isn't that a much nicer way to look at the world?
Not really. The sadness is that it will probably only die when it is seen and found to be the poison it is.
Like I said, your metaphors reflect the inner bleakness of your soul which darkens the way you see the whole world. I do honestly pity you unreconciled Remainers.
The United States of Europe. Political capital: Brussels. Financial capital: London. Manufacturing power house: Munich. People coming and going East, West, North and South.
nah the capital should be further East - Prague or Vienna
Don't go spoiling a beautiful city with a load of Eurobureaucracy. If the capital has to move (and it doesn't), then make it somewhere like Katowice.
Reports of Brexit's death are greatly exaggerated ( I regret to think). It is impossible that the Brexit cancer that is in the country's brain can easily be removed even by the greatest of brain surgeons, let alone Mr "2Es" Corbyn or Theresa "fields of wheat" May
Your metaphors simply reflect your own bleak outlook on the world as a whole.
Brexit is clear, flowing stream water, fresh from the chalk spring. However much you might try to dam it, it will always find a way to break through and refresh the souls of those who have come to drink from its pools. .
There now, isn't that a much nicer way to look at the world?
Not really. The sadness is that it will probably only die when it is seen and found to be the poison it is.
Like I said, your metaphors reflect the inner bleakness of your soul which darkens the way you see the whole world. I do honestly pity you unreconciled Remainers.
The United States of Europe. Political capital: Brussels. Financial capital: London. Manufacturing power house: Munich. People coming and going East, West, North and South.
A genuine nightmare that would shortly collapse into rebellion and civil war.
Only as a result of action by petty nationalist xenophobes.
why do you keep picking on the Germans ?
LOL. The Flemish can do a pretty fair job, too!😉
as a dutchman once told my boss I love the Germans, Id just rather didnt all come at once
Don't forget the lack of momentum for Leave. Nothing has gone their way since the took over the government in July 2016. The polling has moved against them, the House of Commons became notionally even more Remain in 2017. Most of the claims of the Leave campaign have bern dynamited by reality and Brexiters themselves have split on the way forward. You need to see Brexit as a rocket that has still being going up for 2 + years but never achieved escape velocity. That's a key reason May's vassalage deal is so dreadful. Anything more internally coherent and clear would be even less popular.
This is of course entirely Brexiters fault. They've never ever acted like they were nursing a tiny 3.8% majority and facing a 2.5 year marathon between the referendum result and any Brexit day which was fraught with peril. It's a mixture of imperial overstretch pushing a very narrow win far too far and the crypto facistic " will of the people " stuff. The belief that one single marginal election result entitles them to the single biggest political change in post War history with no follow up work. They've acted like a screaming toddler demanding sweets at the checkout since 2016 and just haven't done the work.
Leave took over government in 2016? I must have missed that one.
And then managed to lose the CON majority in June 2017
I think you missed the irony in the posting you replied to. Leave have not been in Government in any meaningful sense since the referendum. It was Remainer May who was stupid enough to lose the Tory majority in 2017.
Anyway let's not declare Brexit dead yet. The three key dynamics now are #1 What do the ERGers do when they realise the choice is between May's deal and something even softer/no Brexit at all ? #2 Will the DUP use the ejector seat of making the good the enemy of the best on Brexit. You have to ask if Remaining via rejecting the Backstop is now their least worst option for preserving the Status Quo in Northern Ireland. #3 How many Brexiters now think the betrayal narrative of an A50 extension and subsequent fudge would actually be good for them in the longer term ?
I think we are now in Chaos Theory territory with those competing dynamics. But we shoukdn't rule out the numbers tightening on May's deal if #1 comes into play.
Sad to see you siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I do wonder where this hatred of self determination came from given the lessons of only 70 odd years ago.
Putin is massively pro-Brexit.
Utterly irrelevant. Just like most of your comments.
Sad to see you siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I do wonder where this hatred of self determination came from given the lessons of only 70 odd years ago.
Sad to see you siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I do wonder where this hatred of self determination came from given the lessons of only 70 odd years ago.
Putin is massively pro-Brexit.
So? Brexiteers aren't massively pro-Putin.
In the same sense that the loony left weren't pro-USSR.
Reports of Brexit's death are greatly exaggerated ( I regret to think). It is impossible that the Brexit cancer that is in the country's brain can easily be removed even by the greatest of brain surgeons, let alone Mr "2Es" Corbyn or Theresa "fields of wheat" May
Your metaphors simply reflect your own bleak outlook on the world as a whole.
Brexit is clear, flowing stream water, fresh from the chalk spring. However much you might try to dam it, it will always find a way to break through and refresh the souls of those who have come to drink from its pools. .
There now, isn't that a much nicer way to look at the world?
Not really. The sadness is that it will probably only die when it is seen and found to be the poison it is.
Like I said, your metaphors reflect the inner bleakness of your soul which darkens the way you see the whole world. I do honestly pity you unreconciled Remainers.
The United States of Europe. Political capital: Brussels. Financial capital: London. Manufacturing power house: Munich. People coming and going East, West, North and South.
A genuine nightmare that would shortly collapse into rebellion and civil war.
Only as a result of action by petty nationalist xenophobes.
Sad to see you siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I do wonder where this hatred of self determination came from given the lessons of only 70 odd years ago.
I think it is becoming apparent that the only people that are siding with genuine dictators and despots are those who supported Leave. They are either traitors or useful idiots. Take your pick
Don't forget the lack of momentum for Leave. Nothing has gone their way since the took over the government in July 2016. The polling has moved against them, the House of Commons became notionally even more Remain in 2017. Most of the claims of the Leave campaign have bern dynamited by reality and Brexiters themselves have split on the way forward. You need to see Brexit as a rocket that has still being going up for 2 + years but never achieved escape velocity. That's a key reason May's vassalage deal is so dreadful. Anything more internally coherent and clear would be even less popular.
This is of course entirely Brexiters fault. They've never ever acted like they were nursing a tiny 3.8% majority and facing a 2.5 year marathon between the referendum result and any Brexit day which was fraught with peril. It's a mixture of imperial overstretch pushing a very narrow win far too far and the crypto facistic " will of the people " stuff. The belief that one single marginal election result entitles them to the single biggest political change in post War history with no follow up work. They've acted like a screaming toddler demanding sweets at the checkout since 2016 and just haven't done the work.
You have to conclude that ultimately they didn't care enough about Brexit to work for it. Which makes you wonder what it is that they really want.
They had no idea about anything. In all the years they spent moaning about the EU they never bothered to learn anything about it. They just enjoyed playing the game and making speeches with lots of references to liberty and tyranny.
It's hard to point to any first rate political leader in the West.
Vladimir Putin.
Though obviously he should be in the East :-)
Good to see you show your true allegiance. When will the other Brexit supporters follow suit? If your idea of a first rate political leader is someone who is an international thug who has no respect for the rule of law or any sense of decency, it says a lot about people with your political leanings. I am not surprised though.
Always interting to hear views from the dog loving community
If it isn't, I think the only viable alternatives are:
1. Recognise the UK doesn't have a clue about Brexit. Exit anyway on EU terms to completely blind Brexit and worry about what happens later. We have 20 months to sort that out until the transition period comes to an end.
2. Remain.
No Deal isn't serious. I don't expect starvation but it is predicated on never at any time having an arrangement of any kind with the EU. Which is nonsense. Otherwise we are dependent on the whim of the EU for stuff that we need, who can demand what they want in return and can switch off the arrangement at any time of their choosing. It is an absurdly weak position to put ourselves into.
That is an idiotic definition of No Deal. All 'No Deal' means is not this deal. If the EU came along with a deal that satisfied the ERG lot (I am not saying the would or should) or if they came along with individual deals in specific areas to try and mitigate the issues on a case by case basis for each side then I don't think there is a single person in Parliament who would refuse to do those deals.
Your definition is utterly nonsensical.
Idiotic and nonsensical, eh?
I refer to the so called "mini deals" of the so called "Managed No Deal". These are things we need from the EU, identified as necessary by the government's No Deal planning. They are separate from the unilateral time limited mitigation planned by the EU to allow an orderly transfer of jobs and business out of the UK and into the EU. The EU will make the same demands for the mini deals as for the Withdrawal Agreement, which was a reason to reject May's Deal. We would be in a very weak position to reject those demands this time. And because the mini deals are ad hoc rather than part of a framework, there is very little commitment from the other side to maintain them.
No Deal just isn't serious.
Edit But I am curious about whether PBers think May's Deal or a close variant will ultimately pass.
Reports of Brexit's death are greatly exaggerated ( I regret to think). It is impossible that the Brexit cancer that is in the country's brain can easily be removed even by the greatest of brain surgeons, let alone Mr "2Es" Corbyn or Theresa "fields of wheat" May
Your metaphors simply reflect your own bleak outlook on the world as a whole.
Brexit is clear, flowing stream water, fresh from the chalk spring. However much you might try to dam it, it will always find a way to break through and refresh the souls of those who have come to drink from its pools. .
There now, isn't that a much nicer way to look at the world?
Not really. The sadness is that it will probably only die when it is seen and found to be the poison it is.
Like I said, your metaphors reflect the inner bleakness of your soul which darkens the way you see the whole world. I do honestly pity you unreconciled Remainers.
The United States of Europe. Political capital: Brussels. Financial capital: London. Manufacturing power house: Munich. People coming and going East, West, North and South.
A genuine nightmare that would shortly collapse into rebellion and civil war.
Only as a result of action by petty nationalist xenophobes.
Sad to see you siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I do wonder where this hatred of self determination came from given the lessons of only 70 odd years ago.
There are none so blind as those who won't see. Where did I say I was anti-democratic? I envisage a structure rather like that of the US, although obviously with functioning democratic processes in all the constituent states.
Reports of Brexit's death are greatly exaggerated ( I regret to think). It is impossible that the Brexit cancer that is in the country's brain can easily be removed even by the greatest of brain surgeons, let alone Mr "2Es" Corbyn or Theresa "fields of wheat" May
Your metaphors simply reflect your own bleak outlook on the world as a whole.
Brexit is clear, flowing stream water, fresh from the chalk spring. However much you might try to dam it, it will always find a way to break through and refresh the souls of those who have come to drink from its pools. .
There now, isn't that a much nicer way to look at the world?
Not really. The sadness is that it will probably only die when it is seen and found to be the poison it is.
Like I said, your metaphors reflect the inner bleakness of your soul which darkens the way you see the whole world. I do honestly pity you unreconciled Remainers.
The United States of Europe. Political capital: Brussels. Financial capital: London. Manufacturing power house: Munich. People coming and going East, West, North and South.
A genuine nightmare that would shortly collapse into rebellion and civil war.
Only as a result of action by petty nationalist xenophobes.
Sad to see you siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I do wonder where this hatred of self determination came from given the lessons of only 70 odd years ago.
I think it is becoming apparent that the only people that are siding with genuine dictators and despots are those who supported Leave. They are either traitors or useful idiots. Take your pick
It's hard to point to any first rate political leader in the West.
Vladimir Putin.
Though obviously he should be in the East :-)
Good to see you show your true allegiance. When will the other Brexit supporters follow suit? If your idea of a first rate political leader is someone who is an international thug who has no respect for the rule of law or any sense of decency, it says a lot about people with your political leanings. I am not surprised though.
I prefer Tommy Robinson.
I suppose in Tommy Robinson's defence, he has not tried to murder anyone using a chemical or biological weapon and then joked about it, as far as we know.
Reports of Brexit's death are greatly exaggerated ( I regret to think). It is impossible that the Brexit cancer that is in the country's brain can easily be removed even by the greatest of brain surgeons, let alone Mr "2Es" Corbyn or Theresa "fields of wheat" May
Your metaphors simply reflect your own bleak outlook on the world as a whole.
Brexit is clear, flowing stream water, fresh from the chalk spring. However much you might try to dam it, it will always find a way to break through and refresh the souls of those who have come to drink from its pools. .
There now, isn't that a much nicer way to look at the world?
Not really. The sadness is that it will probably only die when it is seen and found to be the poison it is.
Like I said, your metaphors reflect the inner bleakness of your soul which darkens the way you see the whole world. I do honestly pity you unreconciled Remainers.
The United States of Europe. Political capital: Brussels. Financial capital: London. Manufacturing power house: Munich. People coming and going East, West, North and South.
A genuine nightmare that would shortly collapse into rebellion and civil war.
Only as a result of action by petty nationalist xenophobes.
Sad to see you siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I do wonder where this hatred of self determination came from given the lessons of only 70 odd years ago.
I think it is becoming apparent that the only people that are siding with genuine dictators and despots are those who supported Leave. They are either traitors or useful idiots. Take your pick
Nope. Anyone who would happily risk destroying public faith in democracy in this country - and I am looking straight at you Remoaners - are siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I wouldn't stoop to your level of calling them traitors because that implies them having some cognisance of what they are doing and generally Remoaners are just too dumb for that.
One of the new intake of Democratic Congresswomen. From New York.
She beat an established Democrat in the primary and was then almost guaranteed to be elected. The GOP have helped make her extra-popular amongst Twitter people by over the top attacks.
Reports of Brexit's death are greatly exaggerated ( I regret to think). It is impossible that the Brexit cancer that is in the country's brain can easily be removed even by the greatest of brain surgeons, let alone Mr "2Es" Corbyn or Theresa "fields of wheat" May
Your metaphors simply reflect your own bleak outlook on the world as a whole.
Brexit is clear, flowing stream water, fresh from the chalk spring. However much you might try to dam it, it will always find a way to break through and refresh the souls of those who have come to drink from its pools. .
There now, isn't that a much nicer way to look at the world?
Not really. The sadness is that it will probably only die when it is seen and found to be the poison it is.
Like I said, your metaphors reflect the inner bleakness of your soul which darkens the way you see the whole world. I do honestly pity you unreconciled Remainers.
The United States of Europe. Political capital: Brussels. Financial capital: London. Manufacturing power house: Munich. People coming and going East, West, North and South.
A genuine nightmare that would shortly collapse into rebellion and civil war.
Only as a result of action by petty nationalist xenophobes.
Sad to see you siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I do wonder where this hatred of self determination came from given the lessons of only 70 odd years ago.
I think it is becoming apparent that the only people that are siding with genuine dictators and despots are those who supported Leave. They are either traitors or useful idiots. Take your pick
Tony Blair has a record of siding with dictators.
Really? I never liked the man, but I thought the main criticism of him was that he was involved in the overthrow of a rather well known one.
It's hard to point to any first rate political leader in the West.
Vladimir Putin.
Though obviously he should be in the East :-)
Good to see you show your true allegiance. When will the other Brexit supporters follow suit? If your idea of a first rate political leader is someone who is an international thug who has no respect for the rule of law or any sense of decency, it says a lot about people with your political leanings. I am not surprised though.
Always interting to hear views from the dog loving community
You are very weird as well as stupid
Im dragging you down to my level and then Im going to beat you on experience
but first why not tell us your about poochy fantasies ?
Reports of Brexit's death are greatly exaggerated ( I regret to think). It is impossible that the Brexit cancer that is in the country's brain can easily be removed even by the greatest of brain surgeons, let alone Mr "2Es" Corbyn or Theresa "fields of wheat" May
Your metaphors simply reflect your own bleak outlook on the world as a whole.
Brexit is clear, flowing stream water, fresh from the chalk spring. However much you might try to dam it, it will always find a way to break through and refresh the souls of those who have come to drink from its pools. .
There now, isn't that a much nicer way to look at the world?
Not really. The sadness is that it will probably only die when it is seen and found to be the poison it is.
Like I said, your metaphors reflect the inner bleakness of your soul which darkens the way you see the whole world. I do honestly pity you unreconciled Remainers.
The United States of Europe. Political capital: Brussels. Financial capital: London. Manufacturing power house: Munich. People coming and going East, West, North and South.
A genuine nightmare that would shortly collapse into rebellion and civil war.
Only as a result of action by petty nationalist xenophobes.
Sad to see you siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I do wonder where this hatred of self determination came from given the lessons of only 70 odd years ago.
I think it is becoming apparent that the only people that are siding with genuine dictators and despots are those who supported Leave. They are either traitors or useful idiots. Take your pick
Tony Blair has a record of siding with dictators.
Really? I never liked the man, but I thought the main criticism of him was that he was involved in the overthrow of a rather well known one.
Reports of Brexit's death are greatly exaggerated ( I regret to think). It is impossible that the Brexit cancer that is in the country's brain can easily be removed even by the greatest of brain surgeons, let alone Mr "2Es" Corbyn or Theresa "fields of wheat" May
Your metaphors simply reflect your own bleak outlook on the world as a whole.
Brexit is clear, flowing stream water, fresh from the chalk spring. However much you might try to dam it, it will always find a way to break through and refresh the souls of those who have come to drink from its pools. .
There now, isn't that a much nicer way to look at the world?
Not really. The sadness is that it will probably only die when it is seen and found to be the poison it is.
Like I said, your metaphors reflect the inner bleakness of your soul which darkens the way you see the whole world. I do honestly pity you unreconciled Remainers.
The United States of Europe. Political capital: Brussels. Financial capital: London. Manufacturing power house: Munich. People coming and going East, West, North and South.
A genuine nightmare that would shortly collapse into rebellion and civil war.
Only as a result of action by petty nationalist xenophobes.
Sad to see you siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I do wonder where this hatred of self determination came from given the lessons of only 70 odd years ago.
I think it is becoming apparent that the only people that are siding with genuine dictators and despots are those who supported Leave. They are either traitors or useful idiots. Take your pick
Nope. Anyone who would happily risk destroying public faith in democracy in this country - and I am looking straight at you Remoaners - are siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I wouldn't stoop to your level of calling them traitors because that implies them having some cognisance of what they are doing and generally Remoaners are just too dumb for that.
Pursuing something as significant as Brexit when the majority no longer support it makes a mockery of democracy. I don't think it's public faith in democracy that is under threat, but your faith that the public are on your side.
It's hard to point to any first rate political leader in the West.
Vladimir Putin.
Though obviously he should be in the East :-)
Good to see you show your true allegiance. When will the other Brexit supporters follow suit? If your idea of a first rate political leader is someone who is an international thug who has no respect for the rule of law or any sense of decency, it says a lot about people with your political leanings. I am not surprised though.
Always interting to hear views from the dog loving community
You are very weird as well as stupid
Im dragging you down to my level and then Im going to beat you on experience
but first why not tell us your about poochy fantasies ?
I'll leave you to tell us about your's you weirdo. I am not sure your hero Putin would approve, though maybe you should show us a picture of yourself stripped to the waist while riding a Chihuahua while holding a No Deal No Problem sign
Reports of Brexit's death are greatly exaggerated ( I regret to think). It is impossible that the Brexit cancer that is in the country's brain can easily be removed even by the greatest of brain surgeons, let alone Mr "2Es" Corbyn or Theresa "fields of wheat" May
Your metaphors simply reflect your own bleak outlook on the world as a whole.
Brexit is clear, flowing stream water, fresh from the chalk spring. However much you might try to dam it, it will always find a way to break through and refresh the souls of those who have come to drink from its pools. .
There now, isn't that a much nicer way to look at the world?
Not really. The sadness is that it will probably only die when it is seen and found to be the poison it is.
Like I said, your metaphors reflect the inner bleakness of your soul which darkens the way you see the whole world. I do honestly pity you unreconciled Remainers.
The United States of Europe. Political capital: Brussels. Financial capital: London. Manufacturing power house: Munich. People coming and going East, West, North and South.
A genuine nightmare that would shortly collapse into rebellion and civil war.
Only as a result of action by petty nationalist xenophobes.
Sad to see you siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I do wonder where this hatred of self determination came from given the lessons of only 70 odd years ago.
I think it is becoming apparent that the only peops are just too dumb for that.
Pursuing something as significant as Brexit when the majority no longer support it makes a mockery of democracy. I don't think it's public faith in democracy that is under threat, but your faith that the public are on your side.
One thing is clear from the interviews today with the awkward squad is that they have now got the first part of a plan. Ken, Heidi, Chukka, etc have been interviewed and all been pushing the extend article 50 line (note not revoke). Ken on the basis that this would allow parliament time to decide what deal they wanted. The implication is that the EU will instantly grant it, more cakeism. Chukka on now saying extend it for a second referendum.
So some consistency but certainly not a unanimous agreement on the second stage after extension.
Reports of Brexit's death are greatly exaggerated ( I regret to think). It is impossible that the Brexit cancer that is in the country's brain can easily be removed even by the greatest of brain surgeons, let alone Mr "2Es" Corbyn or Theresa "fields of wheat" May
Your metaphors simply reflect your own bleak outlook on the world as a whole.
Brexit is clear, flowing stream water, fresh from the chalk spring. However much you might try to dam it, it will always find a way to break through and refresh the souls of those who have come to drink from its pools. .
There now, isn't that a much nicer way to look at the world?
Not really. The sadness is that it will probably only die when it is seen and found to be the poison it is.
Like I said, your metaphors reflect the inner bleakness of your soul which darkens the way you see the whole world. I do honestly pity you unreconciled Remainers.
The United States of Europe. Political capital: Brussels. Financial capital: London. Manufacturing power house: Munich. People coming and going East, West, North and South.
A genuine nightmare that would shortly collapse into rebellion and civil war.
Only as a result of action by petty nationalist xenophobes.
Sad to see you siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I do wonder where this hatred of self determination came from given the lessons of only 70 odd years ago.
I think it is becoming apparent that the only people that are siding with genuine dictators and despots are those who supported Leave. They are either traitors or useful idiots. Take your pick
It's hard to point to any first rate political leader in the West.
Vladimir Putin.
Though obviously he should be in the East :-)
Good to see you show your true allegiance. When will the other Brexit supporters follow suit? If your idea of a first rate political leader is someone who is an international thug who has no respect for the rule of law or any sense of decency, it says a lot about people with your political leanings. I am not surprised though.
Always interting to hear views from the dog loving community
You are very weird as well as stupid
Im dragging you down to my level and then Im going to beat you on experience
but first why not tell us your about poochy fantasies ?
I'll leave you to tell us about your's you weirdo. I am not sure your hero Putin would approve, though maybe you should show us a picture of yourself stripped to the waist while riding a Chihuahua while holding a No Deal No Problem sign
One of the new intake of Democratic Congresswomen. From New York.
She's young, female, fun and unashamedly socialist. Republicans have ABSOLUTELY no idea how to counter her. Probable medium term POTUS, barring accidents.
AOC derangement syndrome is the conservative equivalent of Trump Derangement Syndrome.
She is good fun, the successor to Bernie, enjoying a day of fame for this interview on 60 Minutes, a fairly high profile US current affairs show calling out Trump for racism:
One thing is clear from the interviews today with the awkward squad is that they have now got the first part of a plan. Ken, Heidi, Chukka, etc have been interviewed and all been pushing the extend article 50 line (note not revoke). Ken on the basis that this would allow parliament time to decide what deal they wanted. The implication is that the EU will instantly grant it, more cakeism. Chukka on now saying extend it for a second referendum.
So some consistency but certainly not a unanimous agreement on the second stage after extension.
I'm pretty sure the EU would not extend A50 in order to enable the House of Commons to decide what it wanted to do.
Reports of Brexit's death are greatly exaggerated ( I regret to think). It is impossible that the Brexit cancer that is in the country's brain can easily be removed even by the greatest of brain surgeons, let alone Mr "2Es" Corbyn or Theresa "fields of wheat" May
Your metaphors simply reflect your own bleak outlook on the world as a whole.
Brexit is clear, flowing stream water, fresh from the chalk spring. However much you might try to dam it, it will always find a way to break through and refresh the souls of those who have come to drink from its pools. .
There now, isn't that a much nicer way to look at the world?
Not really. The sadness is that it will probably only die when it is seen and found to be the poison it is.
Like I said, your metaphors reflect the inner bleakness of your soul which darkens the way you see the whole world. I do honestly pity you unreconciled Remainers.
The United States of Europe. Political capital: Brussels. Financial capital: London. Manufacturing power house: Munich. People coming and going East, West, North and South.
A genuine nightmare that would shortly collapse into rebellion and civil war.
Only as a result of action by petty nationalist xenophobes.
Sad to see you siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I do wonder where this hatred of self determination came from given the lessons of only 70 odd years ago.
I think it is becoming apparent that the only people that are siding with genuine dictators and despots are those who supported Leave. They are either traitors or useful idiots. Take your pick
Tony Blair has a record of siding with dictators.
Really? I never liked the man, but I thought the main criticism of him was that he was involved in the overthrow of a rather well known one.
Pursuing something as significant as Brexit when the majority no longer support it makes a mockery of democracy. I don't think it's public faith in democracy that is under threat, but your faith that the public are on your side.
Amusing to see some Leavers getting all lathered about having to wear the "traitor" title that many of them were happy to use to describe their opponents. I don't really consider many of them traitors, but they are Putin's Useful Idiots. Leavers have helped advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power, and now they continue to do so knowingly.
What is the status of all these amendments both pro- and anti- Brexit? Are they binding on the Government?
The Withdrawal Agreement is an international agreement, so it could never be binding. However, by passing legislation that explicitly contradicts the most important part of the WA would be an astonishing act of bad faith that will infuriate the EU.
One of the new intake of Democratic Congresswomen. From New York.
She's young, female, fun and unashamedly socialist. Republicans have ABSOLUTELY no idea how to counter her. Probable medium term POTUS, barring accidents.
AOC derangement syndrome is the conservative equivalent of Trump Derangement Syndrome.
She is good fun, the successor to Bernie, enjoying a day of fame for this interview on 60 Minutes, a fairly high profile US current affairs show calling out Trump for racism:
She is also utterly clueless how to actually achieve most of the things she advocates. Every time she gets pushed hard on specifics, she gets in a total mess. But at the moment, the media like her because of back story, fresh face and drives the right totally nuts, with some ridiculous attacks on her clothes and some old dance video.
One thing is clear from the interviews today with the awkward squad is that they have now got the first part of a plan. Ken, Heidi, Chukka, etc have been interviewed and all been pushing the extend article 50 line (note not revoke). Ken on the basis that this would allow parliament time to decide what deal they wanted. The implication is that the EU will instantly grant it, more cakeism. Chukka on now saying extend it for a second referendum.
So some consistency but certainly not a unanimous agreement on the second stage after extension.
I think the assumption they are making is that we would just keep extending and extending and then give up and never leave. Sometimes you need a deadline or you never finish anything.
Which if of course their intention. Once it is stopped it may never be restarted.
Like I said, your metaphors reflect the inner bleakness of your soul which darkens the way you see the whole world. I do honestly pity you unreconciled Remainers.
The United States of Europe. Political capital: Brussels. Financial capital: London. Manufacturing power house: Munich. People coming and going East, West, North and South.
A genuine nightmare that would shortly collapse into rebellion and civil war.
Only as a result of action by petty nationalist xenophobes.
Sad to see you siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I do wonder where this hatred of self determination came from given the lessons of only 70 odd years ago.
I think it is becoming apparent that the only people that are siding with genuine dictators and despots are those who supported Leave. They are either traitors or useful idiots. Take your pick
Nope. Anyone who would happily risk destroying public faith in democracy in this country - and I am looking straight at you Remoaners - are siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I wouldn't stoop to your level of calling them traitors because that implies them having some cognisance of what they are doing and generally Remoaners are just too dumb for that.
Pursuing something as significant as Brexit when the majority no longer support it makes a mockery of democracy. I don't think it's public faith in democracy that is under threat, but your faith that the public are on your side.
The problem is that a majority of MPs don't support it, and don't wish to implement it - in spite of the manifestos on which they were elected *after* the result of the referendum. The faith being lost is that of the public in those they elected, the MPs should remember that they work for us.
Great intervention from Starmer. As I said this morning A50 extention is the gateway drug we need. Any of the other options are too likely to provoke a backlash too powerfully and too soon. All Brexit has going for it is it's inevitability. Once that goes via an A50 extension everything is possible.
One thing is clear from the interviews today with the awkward squad is that they have now got the first part of a plan. Ken, Heidi, Chukka, etc have been interviewed and all been pushing the extend article 50 line (note not revoke). Ken on the basis that this would allow parliament time to decide what deal they wanted. The implication is that the EU will instantly grant it, more cakeism. Chukka on now saying extend it for a second referendum.
So some consistency but certainly not a unanimous agreement on the second stage after extension.
I'm pretty sure the EU would not extend A50 in order to enable the House of Commons to decide what it wanted to do.
They wouldn't extend article 50 if it could be used just to give the UK more time to prepare for no deal, but if parliament has blocked that, perhaps it changes the game.
Pursuing something as significant as Brexit when the majority no longer support it makes a mockery of democracy. I don't think it's public faith in democracy that is under threat, but your faith that the public are on your side.
on that basis will the SNP be shutting up shop ?
No, your brand of unionism is dying out.
Fredralism ? I think its on the up if anything, more local accountabilkity and less centralised decison making fits perfrctly well with the digital age.
trying to live a life based on short bread tins less so.
Pursuing something as significant as Brexit when the majority no longer support it makes a mockery of democracy. I don't think it's public faith in democracy that is under threat, but your faith that the public are on your side.
On that basis should we change Government every time they fall behind in the polls? Yet more dumb Remoaner arguments.
Mr. F, aye, probably would for a referendum, though.
I do wonder if we'll see this happen: May's deal is defeated heavily in the Commons She threatens to unilaterally revoke Article 50 and implement a second referendum if it isn't backed next time May's deal is defeated again Article 50 is revoked, second referendum occurs
One of the new intake of Democratic Congresswomen. From New York.
She's young, female, fun and unashamedly socialist. Republicans have ABSOLUTELY no idea how to counter her. Probable medium term POTUS, barring accidents.
AOC derangement syndrome is the conservative equivalent of Trump Derangement Syndrome.
She is good fun, the successor to Bernie, enjoying a day of fame for this interview on 60 Minutes, a fairly high profile US current affairs show calling out Trump for racism:
Like I said, your metaphors reflect the inner bleakness of your soul which darkens the way you see the whole world. I do honestly pity you unreconciled Remainers.
The United States of Europe. Political capital: Brussels. Financial capital: London. Manufacturing power house: Munich. People coming and going East, West, North and South.
A genuine nightmare that would shortly collapse into rebellion and civil war.
Only as a result of action by petty nationalist xenophobes.
Sad to see you siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I do wonder where this hatred of self determination came from given the lessons of only 70 odd years ago.
I think it is becoming apparent that the only people that are siding with genuine dictators and despots are those who supported Leave. They are either traitors or useful idiots. Take your pick
Nope. Anyone who would happily risk destroying public faith in democracy in this country - and I am looking straight at you Remoaners - are siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I wouldn't stoop to your level of calling them traitors because that implies them having some cognisance of what they are doing and generally Remoaners are just too dumb for that.
Pursuing something as significant as Brexit when the majority no longer support it makes a mockery of democracy. I don't think it's public faith in democracy that is under threat, but your faith that the public are on your side.
The problem is that a majority of MPs don't support it, and don't wish to implement it - in spite of the manifestos on which they were elected *after* the result of the referendum. The faith being lost is that of the public in those they elected.
At GE2017 a majority of voters voted for parties who rejected No Deal in their manifestos.
Like I said, your metaphors reflect the inner bleakness of your soul which darkens the way you see the whole world. I do honestly pity you unreconciled Remainers.
The United States of Europe. Political capital: Brussels. Financial capital: London. Manufacturing power house: Munich. People coming and going East, West, North and South.
A genuine nightmare that would shortly collapse into rebellion and civil war.
Only as a result of action by petty nationalist xenophobes.
Sad to see you siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I do wonder where this hatred of self determination came from given the lessons of only 70 odd years ago.
I think it is becoming apparent that the only people that are siding with genuine dictators and despots are those who supported Leave. They are either traitors or useful idiots. Take your pick
Nope. Anyone who would happily risk destroying public faith in democracy in this country - and I am looking straight at you Remoaners - are siding with the anti-democrats and dictators. I wouldn't stoop to your level of calling them traitors because that implies them having some cognisance of what they are doing and generally Remoaners are just too dumb for that.
Pursuing something as significant as Brexit when the majority no longer support it makes a mockery of democracy. I don't think it's public faith in democracy that is under threat, but your faith that the public are on your side.
The problem is that a majority of MPs don't support it, and don't wish to implement it - in spite of the manifestos on which they were elected *after* the result of the referendum. The faith being lost is that of the public in those they elected.
Labour were elected on a manifesto that ruled out 'no deal' and ruled out supporting the government's Brexit plan. You can criticise their tactics for many reasons, but the lack of a mandate isn't one of them.
May asked the public to "strengthen her hand" against the Brexit saboteurs, and they chose to weaken it.
One of the new intake of Democratic Congresswomen. From New York.
She's young, female, fun and unashamedly socialist. Republicans have ABSOLUTELY no idea how to counter her. Probable medium term POTUS, barring accidents.
AOC derangement syndrome is the conservative equivalent of Trump Derangement Syndrome.
She is good fun, the successor to Bernie, enjoying a day of fame for this interview on 60 Minutes, a fairly high profile US current affairs show calling out Trump for racism:
She is also utterly clueless how to actually achieve most of the things she advocates. Every time she gets pushed hard on specifics, she gets in a total mess. But at the moment, the media like her because of back story, fresh face and drives the right totally nuts, with some ridiculous attacks on her clothes and some old dance video.
The Hugo Swire amendment should be wrecking, but if it is not then it pushes May's deal into a substantially more Brexity Brexit. It would be an astounding amendment to adopt in normal times.
One thing is clear from the interviews today with the awkward squad is that they have now got the first part of a plan. Ken, Heidi, Chukka, etc have been interviewed and all been pushing the extend article 50 line (note not revoke). Ken on the basis that this would allow parliament time to decide what deal they wanted. The implication is that the EU will instantly grant it, more cakeism. Chukka on now saying extend it for a second referendum.
So some consistency but certainly not a unanimous agreement on the second stage after extension.
I'm pretty sure the EU would not extend A50 in order to enable the House of Commons to decide what it wanted to do.
They wouldn't extend article 50 if it could be used just to give the UK more time to prepare for no deal, but if parliament has blocked that, perhaps it changes the game.
Except as you well know Parliament cannot block it. Even with an extended Article 50, if there is no deal then we would still leave without a deal once the extension had expired.
One of the new intake of Democratic Congresswomen. From New York.
She's young, female, fun and unashamedly socialist. Republicans have ABSOLUTELY no idea how to counter her. Probable medium term POTUS, barring accidents.
AOC derangement syndrome is the conservative equivalent of Trump Derangement Syndrome.
She is good fun, the successor to Bernie, enjoying a day of fame for this interview on 60 Minutes, a fairly high profile US current affairs show calling out Trump for racism:
That's not what the Swire amendment says. I think it is actually consistent with the Withdrawal Agreement, provided the EU give a further assurance (repeating what they've already said).
Pursuing something as significant as Brexit when the majority no longer support it makes a mockery of democracy. I don't think it's public faith in democracy that is under threat, but your faith that the public are on your side.
On that basis should we change Government every time they fall behind in the polls? Yet more dumb Remoaner arguments.
It would be a bit odd to press on with Brexit every time support reached 50%+1 while stopping whenever it fell to 50% - 1.
Which if of course their intention. Once it is stopped it may never be restarted.
The whole point of the backstop is that it's an insurance policy and that it's automatic. Promising MPs a vote on something which is actually automatic is a wrecking amendment because it utterly contradicts the entire POINT of the backstop.
Normally Speakers would rule such obvious wrecking amendments out of order, but I think Bercow happy to give Brexiteers a chance to give the deal a damn good procedural kicking too.
Pursuing something as significant as Brexit when the majority no longer support it makes a mockery of democracy. I don't think it's public faith in democracy that is under threat, but your faith that the public are on your side.
on that basis will the SNP be shutting up shop ?
No, your brand of unionism is dying out.
Fredralism ? I think its on the up if anything, more local accountabilkity and less centralised decison making fits perfrctly well with the digital age.
I was thinking more of your mocking comments about people like Sturgeon and Varadkar who you feel don't know their place.
What is the status of all these amendments both pro- and anti- Brexit? Are they binding on the Government?
The Withdrawal Agreement is an international agreement, so it could never be binding. However, by passing legislation that explicitly contradicts the most important part of the WA would be an astonishing act of bad faith that will infuriate the EU.
Sorry I didn't mean that (although thanks for the explanation). I meant the status of these amendments on their ability to bind the Government to a course of action. There have been a series of amendments to the MV designed to prevent the Government taking certain courses of action and of course there is the Grieve amendment to give more power to Parliament. But are these binding? Is this one any less binding on what the Government are allowed to do in the eyes of Parliament than any others?
One of the new intake of Democratic Congresswomen. From New York.
She's young, female, fun and unashamedly socialist. Republicans have ABSOLUTELY no idea how to counter her. Probable medium term POTUS, barring accidents.
AOC derangement syndrome is the conservative equivalent of Trump Derangement Syndrome.
She is good fun, the successor to Bernie, enjoying a day of fame for this interview on 60 Minutes, a fairly high profile US current affairs show calling out Trump for racism:
One of the new intake of Democratic Congresswomen. From New York.
She's young, female, fun and unashamedly socialist. Republicans have ABSOLUTELY no idea how to counter her. Probable medium term POTUS, barring accidents.
AOC derangement syndrome is the conservative equivalent of Trump Derangement Syndrome.
She is good fun, the successor to Bernie, enjoying a day of fame for this interview on 60 Minutes, a fairly high profile US current affairs show calling out Trump for racism:
Pursuing something as significant as Brexit when the majority no longer support it makes a mockery of democracy. I don't think it's public faith in democracy that is under threat, but your faith that the public are on your side.
On that basis should we change Government every time they fall behind in the polls? Yet more dumb Remoaner arguments.
For anyone that voted for all this pointless nonsense to call anyone dumb is beyond parody
That's not what the Swire amendment says. I think it is actually consistent with the Withdrawal Agreement, provided the EU give a further assurance (repeating what they've already said).
One thing is clear from the interviews today with the awkward squad is that they have now got the first part of a plan. Ken, Heidi, Chukka, etc have been interviewed and all been pushing the extend article 50 line (note not revoke). Ken on the basis that this would allow parliament time to decide what deal they wanted. The implication is that the EU will instantly grant it, more cakeism. Chukka on now saying extend it for a second referendum.
So some consistency but certainly not a unanimous agreement on the second stage after extension.
Clarke's idea of a reasonable extension would be about five years, and in a way he is right.
If the Leave 'team' had announced on winning the referendum that they would need a bit of time, planning and leadership to implement the daunting task of extricating the country from forty years of EU agreements they would have been showing the kind of realism that may have ultimately led to the realisation of a sustainable and coherent Brexit. It may have taken five years or so, but it would have been a journey with a credible route and achievable outcome.
They acted instead as if it would all be as easy as flicking a switch, and thus revealed a degree of political immaturity that might have been excusable from the rank of file of their supporters, but not from their leaders.
That's not what the Swire amendment says. I think it is actually consistent with the Withdrawal Agreement, provided the EU give a further assurance (repeating what they've already said).
Amusing to see some Leavers getting all lathered about having to wear the "traitor" title that many of them were happy to use to describe their opponents. I don't really consider many of them traitors, but they are Putin's Useful Idiots. Leavers have helped advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power, and now they continue to do so knowingly.
It is Remainers who are helping to advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power. Remember all foreign powers are hostile to a greater or lesser extent (the Palmerston assertion) so it is Remainers who are currently the EU's useful idiots. Again I won't say traitors as you are not bright enough to qualify.
The Hugo Swire amendment should be wrecking, but if it is not then it pushes May's deal into a substantially more Brexity Brexit. It would be an astounding amendment to adopt in normal times.
His amendment is subject to this condition - so if there is no assurance and further agrement it becomes academic?:
2. the Government obtaining further assurance from the European Union that the Northern Ireland backstop would only be a temporary arrangement and that, in the event that it comes into force, both parties intend to agree a future relationship or alternative arrangements consistent with the Political Declaration one year after the end of the Implementation Period.”
Reading Corbyn's amendment. Does he not understand that this is a withdrawal agreement, and not a deal on the future relationship?
Good question. It's rather ironic that people criticise Theresa May, of all people, for the fact that the EU has arbitrarily refused to negotiate the final relationship before we've left.
Pursuing something as significant as Brexit when the majority no longer support it makes a mockery of democracy. I don't think it's public faith in democracy that is under threat, but your faith that the public are on your side.
on that basis will the SNP be shutting up shop ?
No, your brand of unionism is dying out.
Fredralism ? I think its on the up if anything, more local accountabilkity and less centralised decison making fits perfrctly well with the digital age.
I was thinking more of your mocking comments about people like Sturgeon and Varadkar who you feel don't know their place.
chippy young william
it has nothing to do with knowing their place and everything to do with disagreeing with their politics.
Sorry I didn't mean that (although thanks for the explanation). I meant the status of these amendments on their ability to bind the Government to a course of action. There have been a series of amendments to the MV designed to prevent the Government taking certain courses of action and of course there is the Grieve amendment to give more power to Parliament. But are these binding? Is this one any less binding on what the Government are allowed to do in the eyes of Parliament than any others?
Well, it's up to the Speaker to select the amendments he considers effective. I think in normal times, the Squire amendment would have been ruled out of order, since Parliament cannot bind an international agreement that says something quite to the contrary.
One of the new intake of Democratic Congresswomen. From New York.
She's young, female, fun and unashamedly socialist. Republicans have ABSOLUTELY no idea how to counter her. Probable medium term POTUS, barring accidents.
AOC derangement syndrome is the conservative equivalent of Trump Derangement Syndrome.
She is good fun, the successor to Bernie, enjoying a day of fame for this interview on 60 Minutes, a fairly high profile US current affairs show calling out Trump for racism:
She is also utterly clueless how to actually achieve most of the things she advocates.
Since when has that ever handicapped an aspiring politician?
I was kinda of hoping after trump we might get back to something more akin to people advocating realistic proposals.
She's Bernie's metaphorical granddaughter, fresh from student politics thinking she knows the answer to everything and enjoying her fifteen minutes of fame.
The nearest recent British equivalent was probably the SNP teenager from 2015, Mhairi Black.
Sorry I didn't mean that (although thanks for the explanation). I meant the status of these amendments on their ability to bind the Government to a course of action. There have been a series of amendments to the MV designed to prevent the Government taking certain courses of action and of course there is the Grieve amendment to give more power to Parliament. But are these binding? Is this one any less binding on what the Government are allowed to do in the eyes of Parliament than any others?
Well, it's up to the Speaker to select the amendments he considers effective. I think in normal times, the Squire amendment would have been ruled out of order, since Parliament cannot bind an international agreement that says something quite to the contrary.
But these are clearly not normal times.
So by accepting the amendment May has effectively bypassed Bercow? Interesting to see where that goes now.
Amusing to see some Leavers getting all lathered about having to wear the "traitor" title that many of them were happy to use to describe their opponents. I don't really consider many of them traitors, but they are Putin's Useful Idiots. Leavers have helped advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power, and now they continue to do so knowingly.
It is Remainers who are helping to advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power. Remember all foreign powers are hostile to a greater or lesser extent (the Palmerston assertion) so it is Remainers who are currently the EU's useful idiots. Again I won't say traitors as you are not bright enough to qualify.
Reading Corbyn's amendment. Does he not understand that this is a withdrawal agreement, and not a deal on the future relationship?
Good question. It's rather ironic that people criticise Theresa May, of all people, for the fact that the EU has arbitrarily refused to negotiate the final relationship before we've left.
Arbitarily refused on the entirely confected basis that that's what Article 50 provides for?
I mean, I guess it would have been too much to expect the government to have read Article 50 before invoking it.
Pursuing something as significant as Brexit when the majority no longer support it makes a mockery of democracy. I don't think it's public faith in democracy that is under threat, but your faith that the public are on your side.
On that basis should we change Government every time they fall behind in the polls? Yet more dumb Remoaner arguments.
It would be a bit odd to press on with Brexit every time support reached 50%+1 while stopping whenever it fell to 50% - 1.
Indeed, very silly. Parliament failing to decide is unfortunate but a reason for a public vote. Polling is not.
Sorry I didn't mean that (although thanks for the explanation). I meant the status of these amendments on their ability to bind the Government to a course of action. There have been a series of amendments to the MV designed to prevent the Government taking certain courses of action and of course there is the Grieve amendment to give more power to Parliament. But are these binding? Is this one any less binding on what the Government are allowed to do in the eyes of Parliament than any others?
Well, it's up to the Speaker to select the amendments he considers effective. I think in normal times, the Squire amendment would have been ruled out of order, since Parliament cannot bind an international agreement that says something quite to the contrary.
But these are clearly not normal times.
Which bit of the Swire amendment do you think is incompatible with the WA?
Reading Corbyn's amendment. Does he not understand that this is a withdrawal agreement, and not a deal on the future relationship?
Good question. It's rather ironic that people criticise Theresa May, of all people, for the fact that the EU has arbitrarily refused to negotiate the final relationship before we've left.
Arbitarily refused on the entirely confected basis that that's what Article 50 provides for?
I mean, I guess it would have been too much to expect the government to have read Article 50 before invoking it.
It doesn't say anything about forbidding negotiation, I think it's just a deal cannot be concluded before we leave.
Sorry I didn't mean that (although thanks for the explanation). I meant the status of these amendments on their ability to bind the Government to a course of action. There have been a series of amendments to the MV designed to prevent the Government taking certain courses of action and of course there is the Grieve amendment to give more power to Parliament. But are these binding? Is this one any less binding on what the Government are allowed to do in the eyes of Parliament than any others?
Well, it's up to the Speaker to select the amendments he considers effective. I think in normal times, the Squire amendment would have been ruled out of order, since Parliament cannot bind an international agreement that says something quite to the contrary.
But these are clearly not normal times.
So by accepting the amendment May has effectively bypassed Bercow? Interesting to see where that goes now.
It looks a hell of a lot like the government just voluntarily accepted a wrecking amendment, yes. Nothing makes sense any more.
Amusing to see some Leavers getting all lathered about having to wear the "traitor" title that many of them were happy to use to describe their opponents. I don't really consider many of them traitors, but they are Putin's Useful Idiots. Leavers have helped advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power, and now they continue to do so knowingly.
It is Remainers who are helping to advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power. Remember all foreign powers are hostile to a greater or lesser extent (the Palmerston assertion) so it is Remainers who are currently the EU's useful idiots. Again I won't say traitors as you are not bright enough to qualify.
The EU is not a foreign power unless we leave it.
one minute you say its a legal framework next minute its a power
One thing is clear from the interviews today with the awkward squad is that they have now got the first part of a plan. Ken, Heidi, Chukka, etc have been interviewed and all been pushing the extend article 50 line (note not revoke). Ken on the basis that this would allow parliament time to decide what deal they wanted. The implication is that the EU will instantly grant it, more cakeism. Chukka on now saying extend it for a second referendum.
So some consistency but certainly not a unanimous agreement on the second stage after extension.
Clarke's idea of a reasonable extension would be about five years, and in a way he is right.
If the Leave 'team' had announced on winning the referendum that they would need a bit of time, planning and leadership to implement the daunting task of extricating the country from forty years of EU agreements they would have been showing the kind of realism that may have ultimately led to the realisation of a sustainable and coherent Brexit. It may have taken five years or so, but it would have been a journey with a credible route and achievable outcome.
They acted instead as if it would all be as easy as flicking a switch, and thus revealed a degree of political immaturity that might have been excusable from the rank of file of their supporters, but not from their leaders.
Same question again though Peter. What Leave Team? There has been no Leave team in any position to make such statements since the referendum as the whole thing has been directed and controlled on the UK side by a Remain supporter.
Reading Corbyn's amendment. Does he not understand that this is a withdrawal agreement, and not a deal on the future relationship?
Good question. It's rather ironic that people criticise Theresa May, of all people, for the fact that the EU has arbitrarily refused to negotiate the final relationship before we've left.
Arbitarily refused on the entirely confected basis that that's what Article 50 provides for?
I mean, I guess it would have been too much to expect the government to have read Article 50 before invoking it.
Article 50 doesn't say we can't negotiate the final relationship in parallel with the withdrawal agreement. In fact it rather implies that is what should happen.
Pursuing something as significant as Brexit when the majority no longer support it makes a mockery of democracy. I don't think it's public faith in democracy that is under threat, but your faith that the public are on your side.
On that basis should we change Government every time they fall behind in the polls? Yet more dumb Remoaner arguments.
It would be a bit odd to press on with Brexit every time support reached 50%+1 while stopping whenever it fell to 50% - 1.
Well, you do rather neatly illustrate there the problem with government by referendum, Sean.
Sorry I didn't mean that (although thanks for the explanation). I meant the status of these amendments on their ability to bind the Government to a course of action. There have been a series of amendments to the MV designed to prevent the Government taking certain courses of action and of course there is the Grieve amendment to give more power to Parliament. But are these binding? Is this one any less binding on what the Government are allowed to do in the eyes of Parliament than any others?
Well, it's up to the Speaker to select the amendments he considers effective. I think in normal times, the Squire amendment would have been ruled out of order, since Parliament cannot bind an international agreement that says something quite to the contrary.
But these are clearly not normal times.
Which bit of the Swire amendment do you think is incompatible with the WA?
It isn't for me to decide, it's for the EU, who will no doubt be greatly amused with the UK's latest show of poor faith.
Reading Corbyn's amendment. Does he not understand that this is a withdrawal agreement, and not a deal on the future relationship?
Good question. It's rather ironic that people criticise Theresa May, of all people, for the fact that the EU has arbitrarily refused to negotiate the final relationship before we've left.
Arbitarily refused on the entirely confected basis that that's what Article 50 provides for?
I mean, I guess it would have been too much to expect the government to have read Article 50 before invoking it.
There isn't an awful lot to read. Note my bold in Para 2.
1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.
2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.
3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.
4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.
A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.
5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.
Sorry I didn't mean that (although thanks for the explanation). I meant the status of these amendments on their ability to bind the Government to a course of action. There have been a series of amendments to the MV designed to prevent the Government taking certain courses of action and of course there is the Grieve amendment to give more power to Parliament. But are these binding? Is this one any less binding on what the Government are allowed to do in the eyes of Parliament than any others?
Well, it's up to the Speaker to select the amendments he considers effective. I think in normal times, the Squire amendment would have been ruled out of order, since Parliament cannot bind an international agreement that says something quite to the contrary.
But these are clearly not normal times.
Which bit of the Swire amendment do you think is incompatible with the WA?
It isn't for me to decide, it's for the EU, who will no doubt be greatly amused with the UK's latest show of poor faith.
I think it's more Tom Newton-Dunn's lack of understanding TBH.
Reading Corbyn's amendment. Does he not understand that this is a withdrawal agreement, and not a deal on the future relationship?
Good question. It's rather ironic that people criticise Theresa May, of all people, for the fact that the EU has arbitrarily refused to negotiate the final relationship before we've left.
Arbitarily refused on the entirely confected basis that that's what Article 50 provides for?
I mean, I guess it would have been too much to expect the government to have read Article 50 before invoking it.
Article 50 doesn't say we can't negotiate the final relationship in parallel with the withdrawal agreement. In fact it rather implies that is what should happen.
A50 only empowers the EU to conclude a withdrawal agreement. Lisbon is very clear on this: the EU has no standing to negotiate a trade agreement with a member, only a third country. i.e. the UK *has* to leave first.
Don't be getting all David Davis on us now, Richard.
The Tories seem to forget that they do not have a majority. If May hadn't thrown hers away she would have easily beaten Grieve's amendment today. Bercow has changed nothing.
Reading Corbyn's amendment. Does he not understand that this is a withdrawal agreement, and not a deal on the future relationship?
Good question. It's rather ironic that people criticise Theresa May, of all people, for the fact that the EU has arbitrarily refused to negotiate the final relationship before we've left.
Arbitarily refused on the entirely confected basis that that's what Article 50 provides for?
I mean, I guess it would have been too much to expect the government to have read Article 50 before invoking it.
Article 50 doesn't say we can't negotiate the final relationship in parallel with the withdrawal agreement. In fact it rather implies that is what should happen.
A50 only empowers the EU to conclude a withdrawal agreement. Lisbon is very clear on this: the EU has no standing to negotiate a trade agreement with a member, only a third country. i.e. the UK *has* to leave first.
Don't be getting all David Davis on us now, Richard.
Amusing to see some Leavers getting all lathered about having to wear the "traitor" title that many of them were happy to use to describe their opponents. I don't really consider many of them traitors, but they are Putin's Useful Idiots. Leavers have helped advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power, and now they continue to do so knowingly.
It is Remainers who are helping to advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power. Remember all foreign powers are hostile to a greater or lesser extent (the Palmerston assertion) so it is Remainers who are currently the EU's useful idiots. Again I won't say traitors as you are not bright enough to qualify.
Some are much more hostile than others though, that is why we have alliances dur!. Yep you really are an idiot, though whether you are useful only Mr Putin knows.
Reading Corbyn's amendment. Does he not understand that this is a withdrawal agreement, and not a deal on the future relationship?
Good question. It's rather ironic that people criticise Theresa May, of all people, for the fact that the EU has arbitrarily refused to negotiate the final relationship before we've left.
Arbitarily refused on the entirely confected basis that that's what Article 50 provides for?
I mean, I guess it would have been too much to expect the government to have read Article 50 before invoking it.
There is nothing in Article 50 that forbids the negotiation of the final relationship before we have left. Indeed it explicitly says that the negotiations must take into the account the framework of such an agreement. But no where does it say that agreement cannot be negotiated.
Amusing to see some Leavers getting all lathered about having to wear the "traitor" title that many of them were happy to use to describe their opponents. I don't really consider many of them traitors, but they are Putin's Useful Idiots. Leavers have helped advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power, and now they continue to do so knowingly.
It is Remainers who are helping to advance the foreign policy objectives of a hostile power. Remember all foreign powers are hostile to a greater or lesser extent (the Palmerston assertion) so it is Remainers who are currently the EU's useful idiots. Again I won't say traitors as you are not bright enough to qualify.
Some are much more hostile than others though, that is why we have alliances dur!. Yep you really are an idiot, though whether you are useful only Mr Putin knows.
Like I said you really aren't bright enough to qualify. I will find you some colouring pencils to keep you occupied whilst the adults talk.
One thing is clear from the interviews today with the awkward squad is that they have now got the first part of a plan. Ken, Heidi, Chukka, etc have been interviewed and all been pushing the extend article 50 line (note not revoke). Ken on the basis that this would allow parliament time to decide what deal they wanted. The implication is that the EU will instantly grant it, more cakeism. Chukka on now saying extend it for a second referendum.
So some consistency but certainly not a unanimous agreement on the second stage after extension.
Clarke's idea of a reasonable extension would be about five years, and in a way he is right.
If the Leave 'team' had announced on winning the referendum that they would need a bit of time, planning and leadership to implement the daunting task of extricating the country from forty years of EU agreements they would have been showing the kind of realism that may have ultimately led to the realisation of a sustainable and coherent Brexit. It may have taken five years or so, but it would have been a journey with a credible route and achievable outcome.
They acted instead as if it would all be as easy as flicking a switch, and thus revealed a degree of political immaturity that might have been excusable from the rank of file of their supporters, but not from their leaders.
Same question again though Peter. What Leave Team? There has been no Leave team in any position to make such statements since the referendum as the whole thing has been directed and controlled on the UK side by a Remain supporter.
And why so, Richard? Where was the Leave leadership, where was its plan?
Without a plan and the people to put it into effect, there was no implementable Leave option on the referendum ballot. Genuine Leavers have a right to feel aggrieved about this, but they can hardly blame Remainers for it, and a fat lot of good it will do if they try.
Comments
AOC derangement syndrome is the conservative equivalent of Trump Derangement Syndrome.
Baroness Betty reminds me of lot of Mrs Brown off the tv - so it might have been absolute f**king' utter disgrace'!
I think we are now in Chaos Theory territory with those competing dynamics. But we shoukdn't rule out the numbers tightening on May's deal if #1 comes into play.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/18/new-ukip-leader-says-she-counts-vladimir-putin-as-a-political-hero
I refer to the so called "mini deals" of the so called "Managed No Deal". These are things we need from the EU, identified as necessary by the government's No Deal planning. They are separate from the unilateral time limited mitigation planned by the EU to allow an orderly transfer of jobs and business out of the UK and into the EU. The EU will make the same demands for the mini deals as for the Withdrawal Agreement, which was a reason to reject May's Deal. We would be in a very weak position to reject those demands this time. And because the mini deals are ad hoc rather than part of a framework, there is very little commitment from the other side to maintain them.
No Deal just isn't serious.
Edit But I am curious about whether PBers think May's Deal or a close variant will ultimately pass.
You do realise that the bureaucrats work indoors right? In offices?
Keep calm and carry on.
The current law says we leave with No Deal on March 29th 2019.
but first why not tell us your about poochy fantasies ?
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1083031865735430146
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/24/tony-blair-advice-kazakh-president-protesters
So some consistency but certainly not a unanimous agreement on the second stage after extension.
https://twitter.com/60Minutes/status/1082092817986527233?s=19
CAR CRASH INCOMING!
Which if of course their intention. Once it is stopped it may never be restarted.
trying to live a life based on short bread tins less so.
I do wonder if we'll see this happen:
May's deal is defeated heavily in the Commons
She threatens to unilaterally revoke Article 50 and implement a second referendum if it isn't backed next time
May's deal is defeated again
Article 50 is revoked, second referendum occurs
May asked the public to "strengthen her hand" against the Brexit saboteurs, and they chose to weaken it.
It would be an astounding amendment to adopt in normal times.
Look at the actual wording here:
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmagenda/OP190109.pdf
Amendment (o), page 12.
Normally Speakers would rule such obvious wrecking amendments out of order, but I think Bercow happy to give Brexiteers a chance to give the deal a damn good procedural kicking too.
It's only fair they should get a turn too.
https://twitter.com/EmmaKennedy/status/1083039694391263232
If the Leave 'team' had announced on winning the referendum that they would need a bit of time, planning and leadership to implement the daunting task of extricating the country from forty years of EU agreements they would have been showing the kind of realism that may have ultimately led to the realisation of a sustainable and coherent Brexit. It may have taken five years or so, but it would have been a journey with a credible route and achievable outcome.
They acted instead as if it would all be as easy as flicking a switch, and thus revealed a degree of political immaturity that might have been excusable from the rank of file of their supporters, but not from their leaders.
2. the Government obtaining further assurance from the European Union that the
Northern Ireland backstop would only be a temporary arrangement and that, in the
event that it comes into force, both parties intend to agree a future relationship or
alternative arrangements consistent with the Political Declaration one year after the
end of the Implementation Period.”
it has nothing to do with knowing their place and everything to do with disagreeing with their politics.
But these are clearly not normal times.
The nearest recent British equivalent was probably the SNP teenager from 2015, Mhairi Black.
I mean, I guess it would have been too much to expect the government to have read Article 50 before invoking it.
https://twitter.com/josephmdurso/status/1083046120539021312
oh well twas ever thus
1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.
2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.
3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.
4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.
A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.
5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.
Don't be getting all David Davis on us now, Richard.
Without a plan and the people to put it into effect, there was no implementable Leave option on the referendum ballot. Genuine Leavers have a right to feel aggrieved about this, but they can hardly blame Remainers for it, and a fat lot of good it will do if they try.