Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Why HealthSec Hancock should be factored in as a potential TMa

245

Comments

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    I’d also point out my job was effectively relocated to Germany thanks to Brexit.

    Something Leavers said wouldn’t happen either.

    We said it wouldn’t happen in the numbers some were predicting.

    My job was effectively relocated to Germany before the vote. So I got a new one.
  • IanB2 said:

    R4: Business Minister Harrington says he is not prepared to sell business down the river for other people's political priorities, and will resign if no deal.

    Well if the scare stroies prove well founded, we won't have a need for a Business Minister....

    But I suspect there'd be another one along almost immediately - and business wouldn't notice the disruption.
    How is failing to defend financial services in the Brexit talks or being part of an organisation that provides funding to non EU businesses like Ford to relocate from the U.K., an EU member to Turkey that is not, not selling business down the river.

    The business portfolio is pretty redundant. We’ve never had anyone in the brief who has any worthwhile experience or done anything worthwhile.
    Harrington set up a business that employed over 2,000 people when he left it to become an MP.

    I guess that doesn’t count eh?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,563
    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Hmm, got to say, I'm not convinced by Hancock. Lightweight.

    Of course, the Conservatives aren't brimming with heavyweights.

    No party is brimming with heavyweights. Most people nowadays avoid Politics as the stress (24 hour news and Social Media) means its not worth it for the amount you are paid..
    That’s becoming a bigger problem, the only people left are those who consider politics as a career they go into aged 21. Those in their 40s or 50s who used to stand for Parliament, to give something back after a career elsewhere, have all but disappeared.
    There is at least one minister who entered the Commons in his 50s:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mel_Stride

    The subject of the thread was over 40 when elected, I think.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    I saw in the last thread lots of people planning pogroms and asset seizures (mostly the usual suspects, but @Cyclefree you should be ashamed of yourself).

    Guys: it says far more about you than anything else. It’s not a pleasant sight.

    And it’s worth making sure you “win” before you plan the victory parade

    I have not planned any asset seizures or pogroms.

    So you should not make unjustified accusations.

    No-one is going to “win”. But I am worried that those who are pushing us towards a No Deal exit are blithely oblivious of the possible consequences, especially for others less able than them to bear them. I need medecine as do members of my family and the consequences of not having it are potentially serious. So when I feel angry about the frivolous disregard for the possible consequences by some Brexiteers I think that we might have better decision-making if those proposing courses of action actually felt the consequences of their decisions.
    No, but you wanted MPs who backed leave to be deprived of medicines first in the event of shortages. I repeat: you should be ashamed of yourself.
    especially given their greater need...
    Medicines should be allocated based on need - QALY isn’t perfect by any means but it’s as fair any any way of allocating resources
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Brexiters getting their hand waving in early this morning, in between po-faced expressions of cant and hypocrisy.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    HYUFD said:

    Hancock comes across quite well on television and is a safe pair of hands but if and when May goes it is hard to see the Tory membership not electing a No Dealer to succeed her

    Question is, when does May go? If it is this week or even this month over "no deal" then I'd expect a coronation, and even if not, there will not be a headbanger in the final two, just a convert like Hunt or Javid or May herself, who was ostensibly a Remainer.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    IanB2 said:

    R4: Business Minister Harrington says he is not prepared to sell business down the river for other people's political priorities, and will resign if no deal.

    Well if the scare stroies prove well founded, we won't have a need for a Business Minister....

    But I suspect there'd be another one along almost immediately - and business wouldn't notice the disruption.
    How is failing to defend financial services in the Brexit talks or being part of an organisation that provides funding to non EU businesses like Ford to relocate from the U.K., an EU member to Turkey that is not, not selling business down the river.

    The business portfolio is pretty redundant. We’ve never had anyone in the brief who has any worthwhile experience or done anything worthwhile.
    Heseltine certainly had having set up Haymarket which made him a fortune
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Hancock

    There is a structural weakness in our politics. The people you need as ministers make very poor future leaders. Seemingly leadership comes out of opposition rather than government. This has left a succession problem that has dogged both major parties since 1950s. Once parties have exhausted both the PM that won office and the last standing rival, parties turn to the next generation and find them lacking. They’re either hyper ambitious weak frauds or managerial drones. Perhaps something to fix in the post Brexit world.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,008

    If I can love a Corbynite I’m sure I can love a Leaver.

    https://twitter.com/tseofpb/status/1087263042495234048?s=21

    You’ve got to wonder about the 7% of Remain voters who would mind a close relative marrying a Remainer.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    matt said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:



    Yes, as a last resort we’d be moving medicines on military transport planes if that was what was required. I expect such plans are already well advanced and ready to go at very short notice.

    The forward fleet is 8 x A330, 14 x A400M, 7 x C17 and 14 x C-130J. When you take away a/c committed to training, in maintenance and already on ops there isn't exactly a lot of spare capacity sat on the ramp at BZN. They would probably end up recalling some the A330 AirTanker fleet from the civilian lessors. Suddenly the AirTanker PFI looks like a good idea! However if that's what needs to be done then now would be the time do it.
    Agree that we need to start on execution ASAP. If, as seems increasingly likely. the political argument is going to do down to a week or two before the deadline, then we’d better be ready for any outcome.

    That’s not a bad transport fleet, although as you say they’re not all just sitting at Brize on standby. I’m sure Uncle Sam Donald’s got a few C-5s and a lot of C17s he could loan us in a real emergency, and there’s plenty of idle civvy 747Fs around - maybe even some airworthy ones.
    The better question is why you even think this is an appropriate conversation in a first world state. But of course your "we" is brought live from Dubai.
    What I’m saying is that governments plan for things like this all the time, precisely because they’re a first world state. In other places, people die when medicines run out and we’ll make sure that doesn’t happen - even if the EU decide to treat us like North Korea for daring to leave.

    Oh, and playing the man is a sign of running out of argument. Again.
  • HYUFD said:

    Hancock comes across quite well on television and is a safe pair of hands but if and when May goes it is hard to see the Tory membership not electing a No Dealer to succeed her

    Question is, when does May go? If it is this week or even this month over "no deal" then I'd expect a coronation, and even if not, there will not be a headbanger in the final two, just a convert like Hunt or Javid or May herself, who was ostensibly a Remainer.
    I suspect the ERG will not allow a coronation.

    They will not want a convert but a true believer.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Incidentally, what time will our illustrious leader be laying out her new and even more fantastic proposals?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080

    If I can love a Corbynite I’m sure I can love a Leaver.

    https://twitter.com/tseofpb/status/1087263042495234048?s=21

    You’ve got to wonder about the 7% of Remain voters who would mind a close relative marrying a Remainer.
    There are clearly people who would worry about their relatives marrying per se.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Hmm, got to say, I'm not convinced by Hancock. Lightweight.

    Of course, the Conservatives aren't brimming with heavyweights.

    No party is brimming with heavyweights. Most people nowadays avoid Politics as the stress (24 hour news and Social Media) means its not worth it for the amount you are paid..
    That’s becoming a bigger problem, the only people left are those who consider politics as a career they go into aged 21. Those in their 40s or 50s who used to stand for Parliament, to give something back after a career elsewhere, have all but disappeared.
    Plenty of backbenchers still get elected in their 40s or 50s but it is harder to reach the frontbench if you get elected then, though Michael Howard became Tory leader having first been elected in his 40s after a career at the Bar
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    Sandpit said:

    matt said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:



    Yes, as a last resort we’d be moving medicines on military transport planes if that was what was required. I expect such plans are already well advanced and ready to go at very short notice.

    The forward fleet is 8 x A330, 14 x A400M, 7 x C17 and 14 x C-130J. When you take away a/c committed to training, in maintenance and already on ops there isn't exactly a lot of spare capacity sat on the ramp at BZN. They would probably end up recalling some the A330 AirTanker fleet from the civilian lessors. Suddenly the AirTanker PFI looks like a good idea! However if that's what needs to be done then now would be the time do it.
    Agree that we need to start on execution ASAP. If, as seems increasingly likely. the political argument is going to do down to a week or two before the deadline, then we’d better be ready for any outcome.

    That’s not a bad transport fleet, although as you say they’re not all just sitting at Brize on standby. I’m sure Uncle Sam Donald’s got a few C-5s and a lot of C17s he could loan us in a real emergency, and there’s plenty of idle civvy 747Fs around - maybe even some airworthy ones.
    The better question is why you even think this is an appropriate conversation in a first world state. But of course your "we" is brought live from Dubai.
    What I’m saying is that governments plan for things like this all the time, precisely because they’re a first world state. In other places, people die when medicines run out and we’ll make sure that doesn’t happen - even if the EU decide to treat us like North Korea for daring to leave.

    Oh, and playing the man is a sign of running out of argument. Again.
    You could nevertheless do us a favour and cut out the faux we's. You are getting as bad as Archer in that respect.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,563

    If I can love a Corbynite I’m sure I can love a Leaver.

    https://twitter.com/tseofpb/status/1087263042495234048?s=21

    You’ve got to wonder about the 7% of Remain voters who would mind a close relative marrying a Remainer.
    If they had a member of the ERG in mind, I have some sympathy.
    Otherwise, ridiculous.
  • eek said:

    I’d also point out my job was effectively relocated to Germany thanks to Brexit.

    Something Leavers said wouldn’t happen either.

    what your new employer is sending you to Germany as well ?
    No.

    But I liked my old job but others don’t have the luxury I have.
    You mean like factory workers who have had their jobs sent out to Europe for years now and whose upside was a fairly weak redundancy package ?

    Thats the world we have made Mr Eagles and anyone protesting was told to shut up.
    The problem with that argument is that it doesn't solve anything - it's like a child having a temper tantrum because he can't have ice cream while someone else is eating one...
    Alanbrooke seems to support Brexit so that everyone can suffer.
    Now youre just off one handed posting again.

    I get monumentally bored posting I voted Brexit and wanted a soft Brexit and would happily vote for Mrs Ms deal. In your madcap world where everyone is Nigel Farages evil twin there is no room for understanding others positions. But there you go.
    Your stock post is a bitch about how the elite have let manufacturing down these past twenty years.

    Therefore, Brexit is worth voting for so that the “elite” get a taste of their own medicine.

    It’s simple nihilism.
    Yes, saying he is against the establishment, but admires a bunch of old Etonians doesn't exactly make him look the brightest ticket in the book. Then again, he is a supporter of Brexit
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    What I'm currently struggling with is identifying the platform that will get someone elected as Conservative party leader that will also command the confidence of the House of Commons. I can see one, I can see the other, but I can't see what does both.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited January 2019

    HYUFD said:

    Hancock comes across quite well on television and is a safe pair of hands but if and when May goes it is hard to see the Tory membership not electing a No Dealer to succeed her

    Hopefully sanity will prevail and that will not happen. Supporters of No Deal are almost universally at the low IQ end of the Tory party, with the exception of Boris who is a charlatan. It is a very worrying development for democracy if the competing PMs are at the political extremes and the only thing they have in common is that they are both intellectually as thick as shit.
    Boris certainly leads with both the ConHome and Tim Bale University of Sussex Tory membership polls and if and when May goes a Boris v Corbyn election is a strong possibility. It will also be difficult for the parliamentary party to keep Boris and Raab and Patel and McVey and Davis and Mogg from getting to the final 2 to the members, 1 will likely get through with ERG support
  • If I can love a Corbynite I’m sure I can love a Leaver.

    https://twitter.com/tseofpb/status/1087263042495234048?s=21

    You’ve got to wonder about the 7% of Remain voters who would mind a close relative marrying a Remainer.
    I think it was AC Grayling who thinks you’re not really a Remainer if you don’t have #FBPE and #People’sVote in your twitter profile/screen name.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    R4: Business Minister Harrington says he is not prepared to sell business down the river for other people's political priorities, and will resign if no deal.

    Well if the scare stroies prove well founded, we won't have a need for a Business Minister....

    But I suspect there'd be another one along almost immediately - and business wouldn't notice the disruption.
    How is failing to defend financial services in the Brexit talks or being part of an organisation that provides funding to non EU businesses like Ford to relocate from the U.K., an EU member to Turkey that is not, not selling business down the river.

    The business portfolio is pretty redundant. We’ve never had anyone in the brief who has any worthwhile experience or done anything worthwhile.
    Heseltine certainly had having set up Haymarket which made him a fortune
    Good example. We need a few more Heseltines in Parliament, but today generation of businessmen increasingly can’t be bothered with everything that goes around public life when they can live more happily in the shade.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    Hancock comes across quite well on television and is a safe pair of hands but if and when May goes it is hard to see the Tory membership not electing a No Dealer to succeed her

    Question is, when does May go? If it is this week or even this month over "no deal" then I'd expect a coronation, and even if not, there will not be a headbanger in the final two, just a convert like Hunt or Javid or May herself, who was ostensibly a Remainer.
    May will cling on until the end of the year whatever happens with Brexit, then she will be challenged again
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Hancock comes across quite well on television and is a safe pair of hands but if and when May goes it is hard to see the Tory membership not electing a No Dealer to succeed her

    Hopefully sanity will prevail and that will not happen. Supporters of No Deal are almost universally at the low IQ end of the Tory party, with the exception of Boris who is a charlatan. It is a very worrying development for democracy if the competing PMs are at the political extremes and the only thing they have in common is that they are both intellectually as thick as shit.
    Boris certainly leads with both the ConHome and Tim Bale University of Sussex Tory membership polls and if and when May goes a Boris v Corbyn election is a strong possibility. It will also be difficult for the parliamentary party to keep Boris and Raab and Patel and McVey and Davis and Mogg from getting to the final 2 to the members, 1 will likely get through with ERG support
    CONHOME IS NOT A POLL
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    matt said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:



    Yes, as a last resort we’d be moving medicines on military transport planes if that was what was required. I expect such plans are already well advanced and ready to go at very short notice.

    The forward fleet is 8 x A330, 14 x A400M, 7 x C17 and 14 x C-130J. When you take away a/c committed to training, in maintenance and already on ops there isn't exactly a lot of spare capacity sat on the ramp at BZN. They would probably end up recalling some the A330 AirTanker fleet from the civilian lessors. Suddenly the AirTanker PFI looks like a good idea! However if that's what needs to be done then now would be the time do it.
    Agree that we need to start on execution ASAP. If, as seems increasingly likely. the political argument is going to do down to a week or two before the deadline, then we’d better be ready for any outcome.

    That’s not a bad transport fleet, although as you say they’re not all just sitting at Brize on standby. I’m sure Uncle Sam Donald’s got a few C-5s and a lot of C17s he could loan us in a real emergency, and there’s plenty of idle civvy 747Fs around - maybe even some airworthy ones.
    The better question is why you even think this is an appropriate conversation in a first world state. But of course your "we" is brought live from Dubai.
    What I’m saying is that governments plan for things like this all the time, precisely because they’re a first world state. In other places, people die when medicines run out and we’ll make sure that doesn’t happen - even if the EU decide to treat us like North Korea for daring to leave.

    Oh, and playing the man is a sign of running out of argument. Again.
    You could nevertheless do us a favour and cut out the faux we's. You are getting as bad as Archer in that respect.
    Do you think that people who live away don’t have interests and family? And would quite like to move back to the UK at some point?

    By the way, a lot of countries outside the EU are watching what happens in the U.K. very keenly. Most are seeing it as a massive opportunity to forge links and increase mutual trade. None of them like the deal as it adds years more of uncertainty, would rather we left without it.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    R4: Business Minister Harrington says he is not prepared to sell business down the river for other people's political priorities, and will resign if no deal.

    Well if the scare stroies prove well founded, we won't have a need for a Business Minister....

    But I suspect there'd be another one along almost immediately - and business wouldn't notice the disruption.
    How is failing to defend financial services in the Brexit talks or being part of an organisation that provides funding to non EU businesses like Ford to relocate from the U.K., an EU member to Turkey that is not, not selling business down the river.

    The business portfolio is pretty redundant. We’ve never had anyone in the brief who has any worthwhile experience or done anything worthwhile.
    Heseltine certainly had having set up Haymarket which made him a fortune
    Good example. We need a few more Heseltines in Parliament, but today generation of businessmen increasingly can’t be bothered with everything that goes around public life when they can live more happily in the shade.
    It tends to be the populist entrepreneurs like Trump and Berlusconi who are most attracted.

    Standard chief executives like Archie Norman who ran Asda who have tried often found politics not to their taste
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Sure, why not Hancock. It's anyone but May at this point, including Corbyn.

    What I'm currently struggling with is identifying the platform that will get someone elected as Conservative party leader that will also command the confidence of the House of Commons. I can see one, I can see the other, but I can't see what does both.

    Won't be a problem. Deal or no Deal the Tories will lose the confidence soon and we will an election and good riddance to them. The new leader need only worryvabputthe members them, so the nuttiest one should be well placed.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263
    edited January 2019
    Peevish thread this morning. As someone who's been nominated for execution by SeanT, I think everyone should take a bit of hyperbole in their stride.

    How's the Government's proposed rewriting of the Good Friday agrement going? Denied yet?

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1087112695516680193?cn=ZmxleGlibGVfcmVjcw==&refsrc=email
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Hancock comes across quite well on television and is a safe pair of hands but if and when May goes it is hard to see the Tory membership not electing a No Dealer to succeed her

    Hopefully sanity will prevail and that will not happen. Supporters of No Deal are almost universally at the low IQ end of the Tory party, with the exception of Boris who is a charlatan. It is a very worrying development for democracy if the competing PMs are at the political extremes and the only thing they have in common is that they are both intellectually as thick as shit.
    Boris certainly leads with both the ConHome and Tim Bale University of Sussex Tory membership polls and if and when May goes a Boris v Corbyn election is a strong possibility. It will also be difficult for the parliamentary party to keep Boris and Raab and Patel and McVey and Davis and Mogg from getting to the final 2 to the members, 1 will likely get through with ERG support
    CONHOME IS NOT A POLL
    Tim Bale's poll though certainly is and also had Boris ahead
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    What I'm currently struggling with is identifying the platform that will get someone elected as Conservative party leader that will also command the confidence of the House of Commons. I can see one, I can see the other, but I can't see what does both.

    Michael Gove? He’d keep the DUP on board and limit the Con defections to Grieve and Soubry?

    It is awfully tight Parliamentary arithmetic though, a change of PM might not be enough to solve the impasse.
  • Can someone confirm one way or the other.

    Does a change to the Good Friday Agreement require referenda in Northern Ireland and the Republic?
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    eek said:

    I’d also point out my job was effectively relocated to Germany thanks to Brexit.

    Something Leavers said wouldn’t happen either.

    what your new employer is sending you to Germany as well ?
    No.

    But I liked my old job but others don’t have the luxury I have.
    You mean like factory workers who have had their jobs sent out to Europe for years now and whose upside was a fairly weak redundancy package ?

    Thats the world we have made Mr Eagles and anyone protesting was told to shut up.
    The problem with that argument is that it doesn't solve anything - it's like a child having a temper tantrum because he can't have ice cream while someone else is eating one...
    Alanbrooke seems to support Brexit so that everyone can suffer.
    Now youre just off one handed posting again.

    I get monumentally bored posting I voted Brexit and wanted a soft Brexit and would happily vote for Mrs Ms deal. In your madcap world where everyone is Nigel Farages evil twin there is no room for understanding others positions. But there you go.
    Your stock post is a bitch about how the elite have let manufacturing down these past twenty years.

    Therefore, Brexit is worth voting for so that the “elite” get a taste of their own medicine.

    It’s simple nihilism.
    Yes, saying he is against the establishment, but admires a bunch of old Etonians doesn't exactly make him look the brightest ticket in the book. Then again, he is a supporter of Brexit
    There is a problem where those people who hoped for a soft Brexit (I voted leave because we are holding the EU back from consolidating and I would prefer to be slightly further away from the mess that will be Italy collapsing) are watching their decision being destroyed by hardliners who don't actually understand what they want..
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Peevish thread this morning. As someone who's been nominated for execution by SeanT, I think everyone should take a bit of hyperbole in their stride.

    How's the Government's proposed rewriting of the Good Friday agrement going? Denied yet?

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1087260257989132288
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    edited January 2019

    Peevish thread this morning. As someone who's been nominated for execution by SeanT, I think everyone should take a bit of hyperbole in their stride.

    How's the Government's proposed rewriting of the Good Friday agrement going? Denied yet?

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1087112695516680193?cn=ZmxleGlibGVfcmVjcw==&refsrc=email

    In seriousness surely that must involve a series of hoops that would absolutely necessitate an extension, even if feasible?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    matt said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:



    Yes, as a last resort we’d be moving medicines on military transport planes if that was what was required. I expect such plans are already well advanced and ready to go at very short notice.

    The forward fleet is 8 x A330, 14 x A400M, 7 x C17 and 14 x C-130J. When you take away a/c committed to training, in maintenance and already on ops there isn't exactly a lot of spare capacity sat on the ramp at BZN. They would probably end up recalling some the A330 AirTanker fleet from the civilian lessors. Suddenly the AirTanker PFI looks like a good idea! However if that's what needs to be done then now would be the time do it.
    Agree that we need to start on execution ASAP. If, as seems increasingly likely. the political argument is going to do down to a week or two before the deadline, then we’d better be ready for any outcome.

    That’s not a bad transport fleet, although as you say they’re not all just sitting at Brize on standby. I’m sure Uncle Sam Donald’s got a few C-5s and a lot of C17s he could loan us in a real emergency, and there’s plenty of idle civvy 747Fs around - maybe even some airworthy ones.
    The better question is why you even think this is an appropriate conversation in a first world state. But of course your "we" is brought live from Dubai.
    What I’m saying is that governments plan for things like this all the time, precisely because they’re a first world state. In other places, people die when medicines run out and we’ll make sure that doesn’t happen - even if the EU decide to treat us like North Korea for daring to leave.

    Oh, and playing the man is a sign of running out of argument. Again.
    You could nevertheless do us a favour and cut out the faux we's. You are getting as bad as Archer in that respect.
    Do you think that people who live away don’t have interests and family? And would quite like to move back to the UK at some point?

    By the way, a lot of countries outside the EU are watching what happens in the U.K. very keenly. Most are seeing it as a massive opportunity to forge links and increase mutual trade. None of them like the deal as it adds years more of uncertainty, would rather we left without it.
    If anything like the view in/from New Zealand, the view seems to be that a weakened Britain will agree to strike more favourable deals, with Hard Brexit a fly in the ointment since recession in the U.K. not helpful.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    Incidentally, what time will our illustrious leader be laying out her new and even more fantastic proposals?

    someone said 2.30pm. Might as well yell it at a brick wall for all the good begging to the EU does.

  • hamiltonacehamiltonace Posts: 642
    edited January 2019
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Hancock comes across quite well on television and is a safe pair of hands but if and when May goes it is hard to see the Tory membership not electing a No Dealer to succeed her

    Question is, when does May go? If it is this week or even this month over "no deal" then I'd expect a coronation, and even if not, there will not be a headbanger in the final two, just a convert like Hunt or Javid or May herself, who was ostensibly a Remainer.
    May will cling on until the end of the year whatever happens with Brexit, then she will be challenged again
    So Bloomberg has an article on what they think will happen. Nick Boles will present a members bill which will eliminate the option of no deal Brexit. This will pass. TM will then delay A50 and use the situation to pressure the ERG to accept her plan.

    The next election will ironically be for the European Parliament and will be used as a defacto poll on the opinion of the British voter base.

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Sandpit said:

    What I'm currently struggling with is identifying the platform that will get someone elected as Conservative party leader that will also command the confidence of the House of Commons. I can see one, I can see the other, but I can't see what does both.

    Michael Gove? He’d keep the DUP on board and limit the Con defections to Grieve and Soubry?

    It is awfully tight Parliamentary arithmetic though, a change of PM might not be enough to solve the impasse.
    Whoever becomes Conservative leader is going to have to make commitments. Those commitments are going to break the Conservative party.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    malcolmg said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    I saw in the last thread lots of people planning pogroms and asset seizures (mostly the usual suspects, but @Cyclefree you should be ashamed of yourself).

    Guys: it says far more about you than anything else. It’s not a pleasant sight.

    And it’s worth making sure you “win” before you plan the victory parade

    I have not planned any asset seizures or pogroms.

    So you should not make unjustified accusations.

    No-one is going to “win”. But I am worried that those who are pushing us towards a No Deal exit are blithely oblivious of the possible consequences, especially for others less able than them to bear them. I need medecine as do members of my family and the consequences of not having it are potentially serious. So when I feel angry about the frivolous disregard for the possible consequences by some Brexiteers I think that we might have better decision-making if those proposing courses of action actually felt the consequences of their decisions.
    No, but you wanted MPs who backed leave to be deprived of medicines first in the event of shortages. I repeat: you should be ashamed of yourself.
    Says the clown who voted for all this.
    I think it was you who wished to stop any fiscal transfers and cancel the pensions of people who live in the Midlands and the North.

    You should be ashamed of yourself
    He is a nasty piece of work for sure.
    Although I’d imagine you would like giving your turnips to people. One at a time and at considerable velocity
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    Peevish thread this morning. As someone who's been nominated for execution by SeanT, I think everyone should take a bit of hyperbole in their stride.

    How's the Government's proposed rewriting of the Good Friday agrement going? Denied yet?

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1087260257989132288
    They cannot be believed. We get a running commentary from cabinet and practively everything gets suggested before a media or diplomatic report reveals it to be hopeless and they do nothing again.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Hancock comes across quite well on television and is a safe pair of hands but if and when May goes it is hard to see the Tory membership not electing a No Dealer to succeed her

    Hopefully sanity will prevail and that will not happen. Supporters of No Deal are almost universally at the low IQ end of the Tory party, with the exception of Boris who is a charlatan. It is a very worrying development for democracy if the competing PMs are at the political extremes and the only thing they have in common is that they are both intellectually as thick as shit.
    Boris certainly leads with both the ConHome and Tim Bale University of Sussex Tory membership polls and if and when May goes a Boris v Corbyn election is a strong possibility. It will also be difficult for the parliamentary party to keep Boris and Raab and Patel and McVey and Davis and Mogg from getting to the final 2 to the members, 1 will likely get through with ERG support
    No, I said Boris is the exception. He is a only a "No Dealer" for reasons of expediency. Not even his family believed he really believes in Brexit. His difficulties are not a lack of IQ; his problems relate to narcissism, which when combined with an apparent lack of EQ and possible misogyny mean that it is not just his stupid hairstyle, or his lack of principles that make him very similar to the current POTUS, it is almost every facet that they are similar, with the possible difference that Boris doesn't realise he is helping Putin. He is only slightly less unsuitable to be PM than Corbyn. Hopefully he will not get on the ballot.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    IanB2 said:

    R4: Business Minister Harrington says he is not prepared to sell business down the river for other people's political priorities, and will resign if no deal.

    Top bloke. He won’t be alone.
    The EU have said they won’t renegotiate

    So he might as well resign now unless he can persuade the Commons to back it.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    IanB2 said:

    R4: Business Minister Harrington says he is not prepared to sell business down the river for other people's political priorities, and will resign if no deal.

    Top bloke. He won’t be alone.
    The EU have said they won’t renegotiate

    So he might as well resign now unless he can persuade the Commons to back it.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080

    Sandpit said:

    What I'm currently struggling with is identifying the platform that will get someone elected as Conservative party leader that will also command the confidence of the House of Commons. I can see one, I can see the other, but I can't see what does both.

    Michael Gove? He’d keep the DUP on board and limit the Con defections to Grieve and Soubry?

    It is awfully tight Parliamentary arithmetic though, a change of PM might not be enough to solve the impasse.
    Whoever becomes Conservative leader is going to have to make commitments. Those commitments are going to break the Conservative party.
    Unless by then the die is cast
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    R4: Business Minister Harrington says he is not prepared to sell business down the river for other people's political priorities, and will resign if no deal.

    Top bloke. He won’t be alone.
    The EU have said they won’t renegotiate

    So he might as well resign now unless he can persuade the Commons to back it.
    Indeed.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited January 2019
    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    R4: Business Minister Harrington says he is not prepared to sell business down the river for other people's political priorities, and will resign if no deal.

    Well if the scare stroies prove well founded, we won't have a need for a Business Minister....

    But I suspect there'd be another one along almost immediately - and business wouldn't notice the disruption.
    How is failing to defend financial services in the Brexit talks or being part of an organisation that provides funding to non EU businesses like Ford to relocate from the U.K., an EU member to Turkey that is not, not selling business down the river.

    The business portfolio is pretty redundant. We’ve never had anyone in the brief who has any worthwhile experience or done anything worthwhile.
    Heseltine certainly had having set up Haymarket which made him a fortune
    Good example. We need a few more Heseltines in Parliament, but today generation of businessmen increasingly can’t be bothered with everything that goes around public life when they can live more happily in the shade.
    It tends to be the populist entrepreneurs like Trump and Berlusconi who are most attracted.

    Standard chief executives like Archie Norman who ran Asda who have tried often found politics not to their taste
    Yes, good point. I think the average corporate CEO can’t cope with the amount of consensus-building that is required (see also Rex Tillerson as a recent example). The maverick boss (Branson, Dyson, Tim Martin, Elon Musk) can probably work as the top dog to shake things up, but it would be difficult for someone of that style to get that far under the U.K. system of ministerial promotion rather than through direct elections. Boris is probably the only recent example that springs to mind of a maverick type getting to the top table (and being shown wanting).

    Which reminds me, how’s Andy Street getting on in the West Midlands? Anyone here who lives there?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,008

    If I can love a Corbynite I’m sure I can love a Leaver.

    https://twitter.com/tseofpb/status/1087263042495234048?s=21

    You’ve got to wonder about the 7% of Remain voters who would mind a close relative marrying a Remainer.
    I think it was AC Grayling who thinks you’re not really a Remainer if you don’t have #FBPE and #People’sVote in your twitter profile/screen name.
    Regardless of the politics or campaign, personally, I can’t stand hashtags in twitter profiles.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,122

    eek said:

    I’d also point out my job was effectively relocated to Germany thanks to Brexit.

    Something Leavers said wouldn’t happen either.

    what your new employer is sending you to Germany as well ?
    No.

    But I liked my old job but others don’t have the luxury I have.
    You mean like factory workers who have had their jobs sent out to Europe for years now and whose upside was a fairly weak redundancy package ?

    Thats the world we have made Mr Eagles and anyone protesting was told to shut up.
    The problem with that argument is that it doesn't solve anything - it's like a child having a temper tantrum because he can't have ice cream while someone else is eating one...
    Alanbrooke seems to support Brexit so that everyone can suffer.
    Now youre just off one handed posting again.

    I get monumentally bored posting I voted Brexit and wanted a soft Brexit and would happily vote for Mrs Ms deal. In your madcap world where everyone is Nigel Farages evil twin there is no room for understanding others positions. But there you go.
    Your stock post is a bitch about how the elite have let manufacturing down these past twenty years.

    Therefore, Brexit is worth voting for so that the “elite” get a taste of their own medicine.

    It’s simple nihilism.
    Yes, saying he is against the establishment, but admires a bunch of old Etonians doesn't exactly make him look the brightest ticket in the book. Then again, he is a supporter of Brexit
    Obviously the right to vote should be limited to those only with high IQ. In your world .
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    matt said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:



    Yes, as a last resort we’d be moving medicines on military transport planes if that was what was required. I expect such plans are already well advanced and ready to go at very short notice.

    The forward fleet is 8 x A330, 14 x A400M, 7 x C17 and 14 x C-130J. When you take away a/c committed to training, in maintenance and already on ops there isn't exactly a lot of spare capacity sat on the ramp at BZN. They would probably end up recalling some the A330 AirTanker fleet from the civilian lessors. Suddenly the AirTanker PFI looks like a good idea! However if that's what needs to be done then now would be the time do it.
    Agree that we need to start on execution ASAP. If, as seems increasingly likely. the political argument is going to do down to a week or two before the deadline, then we’d better be ready for any outcome.

    That’s not a bad transport fleet, although as you say they’re not all just sitting at Brize on standby. I’m sure Uncle Sam Donald’s got a few C-5s and a lot of C17s he could loan us in a real emergency, and there’s plenty of idle civvy 747Fs around - maybe even some airworthy ones.
    The better question is why you even think this is an appropriate conversation in a first world state. But of course your "we" is brought live from Dubai.
    I think @sandpit would love to live in the U.K.

    Unfortunately the current immigration system discriminated against his wife in favour of unskilled EU citizens.

    So he can’t
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,008
    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    R4: Business Minister Harrington says he is not prepared to sell business down the river for other people's political priorities, and will resign if no deal.

    Top bloke. He won’t be alone.
    The EU have said they won’t renegotiate

    So he might as well resign now unless he can persuade the Commons to back it.
    The EU think that in the game of Brexit “mortal kombat” it is up to the Commons to now frantically mash the keys on the console to execute the most impressive “finish him” move.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    If I can love a Corbynite I’m sure I can love a Leaver.

    https://twitter.com/tseofpb/status/1087263042495234048?s=21

    Leavers accept people for who they are. Remainers are judgemental.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    HYUFD said:

    It tends to be the populist entrepreneurs like Trump and Berlusconi who are most attracted.

    For all their personal similarities, Berlusconi made a lot of money. There's no evidence Trump has ever made any money, just inherited huge piles of it.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    I saw in the last thread lots of people planning pogroms and asset seizures (mostly the usual suspects, but @Cyclefree you should be ashamed of yourself).

    Guys: it says far more about you than anything else. It’s not a pleasant sight.

    And it’s worth making sure you “win” before you plan the victory parade

    I have not planned any asset seizures or pogroms.

    So you should not make unjustified accusations.

    No-one is going to “win”. But I am worried that those who are pushing us towards a No Deal exit are blithely oblivious of the possible consequences, especially for others less able than them to bear them. I need medecine as do members of my family and the consequences of not having it are potentially serious. So when I feel angry about the frivolous disregard for the possible consequences by some Brexiteers I think that we might have better decision-making if those proposing courses of action actually felt the consequences of their decisions.
    No, but you wanted MPs who backed leave to be deprived of medicines first in the event of shortages. I repeat: you should be ashamed of yourself.
    Says the clown who voted for all this.
    I think it was you who wished to stop any fiscal transfers and cancel the pensions of people who live in the Midlands and the North.

    You should be ashamed of yourself
    I’ve commented on the open bigotry of some ultra Remain supporters over the weekend. Sadly, that’s starting to show amongst some of our respected regulars as well.
    It'll get worse. Imagine the campaign that the Leavers and their newspaper backers have waged against the EU for the last several years. It'll be as nothing compared to the onslaught from Remainers if we ever actually Leave. The campaign to rejoin will be immediate and backed up by evidence not the prejudice of the Faragists
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Charles said:

    If I can love a Corbynite I’m sure I can love a Leaver.

    https://twitter.com/tseofpb/status/1087263042495234048?s=21

    Leavers accept people for who they are. Remainers are judgemental.
    Leavers make sweeping generalisations. Remainers take each case on its merits.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. kle4, cheers.

    I agree with your implied suggestion May's new offering will be less than stellar, but the reaction to and next steps may be of interest.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,008

    Sandpit said:

    What I'm currently struggling with is identifying the platform that will get someone elected as Conservative party leader that will also command the confidence of the House of Commons. I can see one, I can see the other, but I can't see what does both.

    Michael Gove? He’d keep the DUP on board and limit the Con defections to Grieve and Soubry?

    It is awfully tight Parliamentary arithmetic though, a change of PM might not be enough to solve the impasse.
    Whoever becomes Conservative leader is going to have to make commitments. Those commitments are going to break the Conservative party.
    You can see now why May so desperately needed those 350 MPs last year. She could have both struck a fairer deal and marginalised the irreducible core of 30 or so hardliners.

    In my gut I knew it was all over when I saw that exit poll.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    If I can love a Corbynite I’m sure I can love a Leaver.

    https://twitter.com/tseofpb/status/1087263042495234048?s=21

    You’ve got to wonder about the 7% of Remain voters who would mind a close relative marrying a Remainer.
    They probably don’t want them marrying any political obsessive
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    R4: Business Minister Harrington says he is not prepared to sell business down the river for other people's political priorities, and will resign if no deal.

    Well if the scare stroies prove well founded, we won't have a need for a Business Minister....

    But I suspect there'd be another one along almost immediately - and business wouldn't notice the disruption.
    How is failing to defend financial services in the Brexit talks or being part of an organisation that provides funding to non EU businesses like Ford to relocate from the U.K., an EU member to Turkey that is not, not selling business down the river.

    The business portfolio is pretty redundant. We’ve never had anyone in the brief who has any worthwhile experience or done anything worthwhile.
    Heseltine certainly had having set up Haymarket which made him a fortune
    Good example. We need a few more Heseltines in Parliament, but today generation of businessmen increasingly can’t be bothered with everything that goes around public life when they can live more happily in the shade.
    It tends to be the populist entrepreneurs like Trump and Berlusconi who are most attracted.

    Standard chief executives like Archie Norman who ran Asda who have tried often found politics not to their taste
    Yes, good point. I think the average corporate CEO can’t cope with the amount of consensus-building that is required (see also Rex Tillerson as a recent example). The maverick boss (Branson, Dyson, Tim Martin, Elon Musk) can probably work as the top dog to shake things up, but it would be difficult for someone of that style to get that far under the U.K. system of ministerial promotion rather than through direct elections.

    Which reminds me, how’s Andy Street getting on in the West Midlands? Anyone here who lives there?
    Neither Michael Gove nor Theresa May strike me as consensus-builders, nor Lansley with his NHS reforms. Does it make a difference if your party has been long in opposition, perhaps, so that most junior ministers have retired? Hancock, to take a topical example, entered parliament in 2010.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    Mr. kle4, cheers.

    I agree with your implied suggestion May's new offering will be less than stellar, but the reaction to and next steps may be of interest.

    Yes. At this point I've resolved that the only hope for the country is that parliament taking control works and ends in remain. Leave had it's chance and has thrown it away, and May us actively harming us by doing nothing but things already proven not to work.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,008
    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    If I can love a Corbynite I’m sure I can love a Leaver.

    https://twitter.com/tseofpb/status/1087263042495234048?s=21

    Leavers accept people for who they are. Remainers are judgemental.
    Leavers make sweeping generalisations. Remainers take each case on its merits.
    That polling would seem to suggest otherwise.

    It is rather worrying.
  • Charles said:

    If I can love a Corbynite I’m sure I can love a Leaver.

    https://twitter.com/tseofpb/status/1087263042495234048?s=21

    Leavers accept people for who they are. Remainers are judgemental.
    Yea, right! I haven't met any xenophobic remainers so don't talk crap.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Sandpit said:

    What I'm currently struggling with is identifying the platform that will get someone elected as Conservative party leader that will also command the confidence of the House of Commons. I can see one, I can see the other, but I can't see what does both.

    Michael Gove? He’d keep the DUP on board and limit the Con defections to Grieve and Soubry?

    It is awfully tight Parliamentary arithmetic though, a change of PM might not be enough to solve the impasse.
    Whoever becomes Conservative leader is going to have to make commitments. Those commitments are going to break the Conservative party.
    You can see now why May so desperately needed those 350 MPs last year. She could have both struck a fairer deal and marginalised the irreducible core of 30 or so hardliners.

    In my gut I knew it was all over when I saw that exit poll.
    The irreducible core of hardliners is closer to 75.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Charles said:

    If I can love a Corbynite I’m sure I can love a Leaver.

    https://twitter.com/tseofpb/status/1087263042495234048?s=21

    Leavers accept people for who they are. Remainers are judgemental.
    Leavers are just happy to see people die or lose their jobs in order to secure Brexit.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    Charles said:

    If I can love a Corbynite I’m sure I can love a Leaver.

    https://twitter.com/tseofpb/status/1087263042495234048?s=21

    Leavers accept people for who they are. Remainers are judgemental.
    Yea, right! I haven't met any xenophobic remainers so don't talk crap.
    There are different prejudices besides xenophobia. And if we're talking people we've met I do know two xenophobic remainers, albeit they voted remain because they hate foreigners and believed they would screw us if we left.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,008
    edited January 2019

    Charles said:

    If I can love a Corbynite I’m sure I can love a Leaver.

    https://twitter.com/tseofpb/status/1087263042495234048?s=21

    Leavers accept people for who they are. Remainers are judgemental.
    Yea, right! I haven't met any xenophobic remainers so don't talk crap.
    Bigotry is rife amongst the ultra Remain camp, including this poll we’ve seen leading Remainers throw around racial epithets like “Gammon” like confetti, cheer the death of the elderly, demand selective punishment as a matter of Government policy and call for the “salting of the slugs”.

    The seem to think that their belief that they hold the moral high ground excuses them from all of the above, whereas in fact it’s no better than any other form of prejudice.
  • Charles said:

    If I can love a Corbynite I’m sure I can love a Leaver.

    https://twitter.com/tseofpb/status/1087263042495234048?s=21

    Leavers accept people for who they are. Remainers are judgemental.
    Sounds a bit...judgemental.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    R4: Business Minister Harrington says he is not prepared to sell business down the river for other people's political priorities, and will resign if no deal.

    Well if the scare stroies prove well founded, we won't have a need for a Business Minister....

    But I suspect there'd be another one along almost immediately - and business wouldn't notice the disruption.
    How is failing to defend financial services in the Brexit talks or being part of an organisation that provides funding to non EU businesses like Ford to relocate from the U.K., an EU member to Turkey that is not, not selling business down the river.

    The business portfolio is pretty redundant. We’ve never had anyone in the brief who has any worthwhile experience or done anything worthwhile.
    Heseltine certainly had having set up Haymarket which made him a fortune
    Good example. We need a few more Heseltines in Parliament, but today generation of businessmen increasingly can’t be bothered with everything that goes around public life when they can live more happily in the shade.
    It tends to be the populist entrepreneurs like Trump and Berlusconi who are most attracted.

    Standard chief executives like Archie Norman who ran Asda who have tried often found politics not to their taste
    Yes, good point. I think the average corporate CEO can’t cope with the amount of consensus-building that is required (see also Rex Tillerson as a recent example). The maverick boss (Branson, Dyson, Tim Martin, Elon Musk) can probably work as the top dog to shake things up, but it would be difficult for someone of that style to get that far under the U.K. system of ministerial promotion rather than through direct elections.

    Which reminds me, how’s Andy Street getting on in the West Midlands? Anyone here who lives there?
    Neither Michael Gove nor Theresa May strike me as consensus-builders, nor Lansley with his NHS reforms. Does it make a difference if your party has been long in opposition, perhaps, so that most junior ministers have retired? Hancock, to take a topical example, entered parliament in 2010.
    The obvious examples to support your thesis would be Blair and Cameron, who both came to the front from a long period of opposition, both in their early 40s and full of ideas. Successive election defeats give opportunities for political parties to try something different, but God only knows what happens when the current lot on all sides shuffle off the stage.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Charles said:

    matt said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:



    Yes, as a last resort we’d be moving medicines on military transport planes if that was what was required. I expect such plans are already well advanced and ready to go at very short notice.

    The forward fleet is 8 x A330, 14 x A400M, 7 x C17 and 14 x C-130J. When you take away a/c committed to training, in maintenance and already on ops there isn't exactly a lot of spare capacity sat on the ramp at BZN. They would probably end up recalling some the A330 AirTanker fleet from the civilian lessors. Suddenly the AirTanker PFI looks like a good idea! However if that's what needs to be done then now would be the time do it.
    Agree that we need to start on execution ASAP. If, as seems increasingly likely. the political argument is going to do down to a week or two before the deadline, then we’d better be ready for any outcome.

    That’s not a bad transport fleet, although as you say they’re not all just sitting at Brize on standby. I’m sure Uncle Sam Donald’s got a few C-5s and a lot of C17s he could loan us in a real emergency, and there’s plenty of idle civvy 747Fs around - maybe even some airworthy ones.
    The better question is why you even think this is an appropriate conversation in a first world state. But of course your "we" is brought live from Dubai.
    I think @sandpit would love to live in the U.K.

    Unfortunately the current immigration system discriminated against his wife in favour of unskilled EU citizens.

    So he can’t
    Thanks Charles. Yes it’s diffcult, but I’m hoping to be back soon, in the next couple of years.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    If I can love a Corbynite I’m sure I can love a Leaver.

    https://twitter.com/tseofpb/status/1087263042495234048?s=21

    Leavers accept people for who they are. Remainers are judgemental.
    Leavers make sweeping generalisations. Remainers take each case on its merits.
    None of this is helping any.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,008

    Sandpit said:

    What I'm currently struggling with is identifying the platform that will get someone elected as Conservative party leader that will also command the confidence of the House of Commons. I can see one, I can see the other, but I can't see what does both.

    Michael Gove? He’d keep the DUP on board and limit the Con defections to Grieve and Soubry?

    It is awfully tight Parliamentary arithmetic though, a change of PM might not be enough to solve the impasse.
    Whoever becomes Conservative leader is going to have to make commitments. Those commitments are going to break the Conservative party.
    You can see now why May so desperately needed those 350 MPs last year. She could have both struck a fairer deal and marginalised the irreducible core of 30 or so hardliners.

    In my gut I knew it was all over when I saw that exit poll.
    The irreducible core of hardliners is closer to 75.
    My point is that on this alternate scenario it wouldn’t have been so high as May would have been able to hold a firmer line on a number of aspects of her negotiation.

    She’d have had the votes to make threats of unilateral action in the event of No Deal credible.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    Sandpit said:

    What I'm currently struggling with is identifying the platform that will get someone elected as Conservative party leader that will also command the confidence of the House of Commons. I can see one, I can see the other, but I can't see what does both.

    Michael Gove? He’d keep the DUP on board and limit the Con defections to Grieve and Soubry?

    It is awfully tight Parliamentary arithmetic though, a change of PM might not be enough to solve the impasse.
    Whoever becomes Conservative leader is going to have to make commitments. Those commitments are going to break the Conservative party.
    You can see now why May so desperately needed those 350 MPs last year. She could have both struck a fairer deal and marginalised the irreducible core of 30 or so hardliners.

    In my gut I knew it was all over when I saw that exit poll.
    The larger her majority the harder the Brexit would have been.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    If I can love a Corbynite I’m sure I can love a Leaver.

    https://twitter.com/tseofpb/status/1087263042495234048?s=21

    Leavers accept people for who they are. Remainers are judgemental.
    Yea, right! I haven't met any xenophobic remainers so don't talk crap.
    37% of Remainers would mind a lot/little if a close relative married a Leaver vs 9% for the obverse

    That seems pretty judgemental to me.

    But perhaps you can explain how I am misunderstanding the data?
  • Roger said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    I saw in the last thread lots of people planning pogroms and asset seizures (mostly the usual suspects, but @Cyclefree you should be ashamed of yourself).

    Guys: it says far more about you than anything else. It’s not a pleasant sight.

    And it’s worth making sure you “win” before you plan the victory parade

    I have not planned any asset seizures or pogroms.

    So you should not make unjustified accusations.

    No-one is going to “win”. But I am worried that those who are pushing us towards a No Deal exit are blithely oblivious of the possible consequences, especially for others less able than them to bear them. I need medecine as do members of my family and the consequences of not having it are potentially serious. So when I feel angry about the frivolous disregard for the possible consequences by some Brexiteers I think that we might have better decision-making if those proposing courses of action actually felt the consequences of their decisions.
    No, but you wanted MPs who backed leave to be deprived of medicines first in the event of shortages. I repeat: you should be ashamed of yourself.
    Says the clown who voted for all this.
    I think it was you who wished to stop any fiscal transfers and cancel the pensions of people who live in the Midlands and the North.

    You should be ashamed of yourself
    I’ve commented on the open bigotry of some ultra Remain supporters over the weekend. Sadly, that’s starting to show amongst some of our respected regulars as well.
    It'll get worse. Imagine the campaign that the Leavers and their newspaper backers have waged against the EU for the last several years. It'll be as nothing compared to the onslaught from Remainers if we ever actually Leave. The campaign to rejoin will be immediate and backed up by evidence not the prejudice of the Faragists
    I do hope your last sentence is correct, and that enough of the gammons and xenophobes who voted Leave are still alive to see the younger generation vote us back in with full fat membership. It is going to be highly amusing.
  • Sandpit said:

    What I'm currently struggling with is identifying the platform that will get someone elected as Conservative party leader that will also command the confidence of the House of Commons. I can see one, I can see the other, but I can't see what does both.

    Michael Gove? He’d keep the DUP on board and limit the Con defections to Grieve and Soubry?

    It is awfully tight Parliamentary arithmetic though, a change of PM might not be enough to solve the impasse.
    Whoever becomes Conservative leader is going to have to make commitments. Those commitments are going to break the Conservative party.
    You can see now why May so desperately needed those 350 MPs last year. She could have both struck a fairer deal and marginalised the irreducible core of 30 or so hardliners.

    In my gut I knew it was all over when I saw that exit poll.
    The irreducible core of hardliners is closer to 75.
    Grieve, Wollaston, Soubry et al don't number 75.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,008

    Charles said:

    If I can love a Corbynite I’m sure I can love a Leaver.

    https://twitter.com/tseofpb/status/1087263042495234048?s=21

    Leavers accept people for who they are. Remainers are judgemental.
    Leavers are just happy to see people die or lose their jobs in order to secure Brexit.
    Remainers are just happy to see people die in order to secure Remain.

    There are unsavoury elements on both sides of this debate.
  • asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,276
    So
    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    R4: Business Minister Harrington says he is not prepared to sell business down the river for other people's political priorities, and will resign if no deal.

    Top bloke. He won’t be alone.
    The EU have said they won’t renegotiate

    So he might as well resign now unless he can persuade the Commons to back it.
    I agree, there's not going to be an "unobtainium brexit" that can command a majority in the house.

    For a long time i thought the EU would throw the Irish under the bus. I now recognise that they will not.

    The ERG say they want a better deal, but for enough of them it's a lie, they want Götterdämmerung. They aren't going to blink.

    The DUP have made a life's work of saying "no, never".

    Labours tests are like Browns tests for Euro membership, superficially reasonable but designed from the outset to be impossible to pass. They can justify any price as being worth it for a first "real" Labour administration in 50 years.

    Shades of 1914, war happened because no one was willing to back down.

    Grim times.

    btw, it's all got a smudge personal on here recently. Another consequence of entrenched positions perhaps.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    If I can love a Corbynite I’m sure I can love a Leaver.

    https://twitter.com/tseofpb/status/1087263042495234048?s=21

    Leavers accept people for who they are. Remainers are judgemental.
    Sounds a bit...judgemental.
    😁
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    So, taking all that into account.... It's the Deal!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    IanB2 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    If I can love a Corbynite I’m sure I can love a Leaver.

    https://twitter.com/tseofpb/status/1087263042495234048?s=21

    Leavers accept people for who they are. Remainers are judgemental.
    Leavers make sweeping generalisations. Remainers take each case on its merits.
    None of this is helping any.
    Leave is having it's dying breath. Leavers are lashing out in anger and the nastier remainers are showing true colours in exultation.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Sandpit said:

    Charles said:

    matt said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:



    Yes, as a last resort we’d be moving medicines on military transport planes if that was what was required. I expect such plans are already well advanced and ready to go at very short notice.

    The forward fleet is 8 x A330, 14 x A400M, 7 x C17 and 14 x C-130J. When you take away a/c committed to training, in maintenance and already on ops there isn't exactly a lot of spare capacity sat on the ramp at BZN. They would probably end up recalling some the A330 AirTanker fleet from the civilian lessors. Suddenly the AirTanker PFI looks like a good idea! However if that's what needs to be done then now would be the time do it.
    Agree that we need to start on execution ASAP. If, as seems increasingly likely. the political argument is going to do down to a week or two before the deadline, then we’d better be ready for any outcome.

    That’s not a bad transport fleet, although as you say they’re not all just sitting at Brize on standby. I’m sure Uncle Sam Donald’s got a few C-5s and a lot of C17s he could loan us in a real emergency, and there’s plenty of idle civvy 747Fs around - maybe even some airworthy ones.
    The better question is why you even think this is an appropriate conversation in a first world state. But of course your "we" is brought live from Dubai.
    I think @sandpit would love to live in the U.K.

    Unfortunately the current immigration system discriminated against his wife in favour of unskilled EU citizens.

    So he can’t
    Thanks Charles. Yes it’s diffcult, but I’m hoping to be back soon, in the next couple of years.
    BTW I only mention it because you posted it - let me know if you rather I didn’t
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080

    Sandpit said:

    What I'm currently struggling with is identifying the platform that will get someone elected as Conservative party leader that will also command the confidence of the House of Commons. I can see one, I can see the other, but I can't see what does both.

    Michael Gove? He’d keep the DUP on board and limit the Con defections to Grieve and Soubry?

    It is awfully tight Parliamentary arithmetic though, a change of PM might not be enough to solve the impasse.
    Whoever becomes Conservative leader is going to have to make commitments. Those commitments are going to break the Conservative party.
    You can see now why May so desperately needed those 350 MPs last year. She could have both struck a fairer deal and marginalised the irreducible core of 30 or so hardliners.

    In my gut I knew it was all over when I saw that exit poll.
    The irreducible core of hardliners is closer to 75.
    Grieve, Wollaston, Soubry et al don't number 75.
    The moderate wing are fewer in number, but there are enough promised resignations in the event of no deal to lose the government's majority, adding immediate political crisis into the mix.
  • Charles said:

    If I can love a Corbynite I’m sure I can love a Leaver.

    https://twitter.com/tseofpb/status/1087263042495234048?s=21

    Leavers accept people for who they are. Remainers are judgemental.
    Leavers are just happy to see people die or lose their jobs in order to secure Brexit.
    Remainers are just happy to see people die in order to secure Remain.

    There are unsavoury elements on both sides of this debate.
    Not happy to see people die you moron. That is typical gammon faced deliberate misunderstanding of facts, or possibly downright stupidity. What many of us have said is that when the late middle aged and elderly that still hold prejudiced views (I am part of this age demographic) die out the younger less prejudiced will probably vote us back in. That does not mean anyone is "happy to see people die". Psychopathy is the preserve of your religion mate.
  • IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    What I'm currently struggling with is identifying the platform that will get someone elected as Conservative party leader that will also command the confidence of the House of Commons. I can see one, I can see the other, but I can't see what does both.

    Michael Gove? He’d keep the DUP on board and limit the Con defections to Grieve and Soubry?

    It is awfully tight Parliamentary arithmetic though, a change of PM might not be enough to solve the impasse.
    Whoever becomes Conservative leader is going to have to make commitments. Those commitments are going to break the Conservative party.
    You can see now why May so desperately needed those 350 MPs last year. She could have both struck a fairer deal and marginalised the irreducible core of 30 or so hardliners.

    In my gut I knew it was all over when I saw that exit poll.
    The irreducible core of hardliners is closer to 75.
    Grieve, Wollaston, Soubry et al don't number 75.
    The moderate wing are fewer in number, but there are enough promised resignations in the event of no deal to lose the government's majority, adding immediate political crisis into the mix.
    The moderate wing are quite great in number. May got nearly 200 votes from the moderates who were willing to back her deal.

    Grieve etc are hardliners not moderates.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    So

    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    R4: Business Minister Harrington says he is not prepared to sell business down the river for other people's political priorities, and will resign if no deal.

    Top bloke. He won’t be alone.
    The EU have said they won’t renegotiate

    So he might as well resign now unless he can persuade the Commons to back it.
    I agree, there's not going to be an "unobtainium brexit" that can command a majority in the house.

    For a long time i thought the EU would throw the Irish under the bus. I now recognise that they will not.

    The ERG say they want a better deal, but for enough of them it's a lie, they want Götterdämmerung. They aren't going to blink.

    The DUP have made a life's work of saying "no, never".

    Labours tests are like Browns tests for Euro membership, superficially reasonable but designed from the outset to be impossible to pass. They can justify any price as being worth it for a first "real" Labour administration in 50 years.

    Shades of 1914, war happened because no one was willing to back down.

    Grim times.

    btw, it's all got a smudge personal on here recently. Another consequence of entrenched positions perhaps.
    Our - and the EU’s - political class has comprehensively failed over the last decade and more.

    And I agree with your last point - hence some of my posts this morning. It frequently seems to be the same small minority though
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    Another PB thread worth avoiding ....
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    eek said:

    I’d also point out my job was effectively relocated to Germany thanks to Brexit.

    Something Leavers said wouldn’t happen either.

    what your new employer is sending you to Germany as well ?
    No.

    But I liked my old job but others don’t have the luxury I have.
    You mean like factory workers who have had their jobs sent out to Europe for years now and whose upside was a fairly weak redundancy package ?

    Thats the world we have made Mr Eagles and anyone protesting was told to shut up.
    The problem with that argument is that it doesn't solve anything - it's like a child having a temper tantrum because he can't have ice cream while someone else is eating one...
    Alanbrooke seems to support Brexit so that everyone can suffer.
    Now youre just off one handed posting again.

    I get monumentally bored posting I voted Brexit and wanted a soft Brexit and would happily vote for Mrs Ms deal. In your madcap world where everyone is Nigel Farages evil twin there is no room for understanding others positions. But there you go.
    Your stock post is a bitch about how the elite have let manufacturing down these past twenty years.

    Therefore, Brexit is worth voting for so that the “elite” get a taste of their own medicine.

    It’s simple nihilism.
    Not just manufacturing but whole swathes of the economy, retail is currently going through the process now and IT will be next. And then of course theres growth in salaries, regional differences accentuating etc.

    Pointing out that the current consensus is failing might unsettle you but its simply the start of a process which will see a new form of politics emerge. Its anything but nihilistic.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited January 2019
    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Charles said:

    matt said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:



    Yes, as a last resort we’d be moving medicines on military transport planes if that was what was required. I expect such plans are already well advanced and ready to go at very short notice.

    The forward fleet is 8 x A330, 14 x A400M, 7 x C17 and 14 x C-130J. When you take away a/c committed to training, in maintenance and already on ops there isn't exactly a lot of spare capacity sat on the ramp at BZN. They would probably end up recalling some the A330 AirTanker fleet from the civilian lessors. Suddenly the AirTanker PFI looks like a good idea! However if that's what needs to be done then now would be the time do it.
    Agree that we need to start on execution ASAP. If, as seems increasingly likely. the political argument is going to do down to a week or two before the deadline, then we’d better be ready for any outcome.

    That’s not a bad transport fleet, although as you say they’re not all just sitting at Brize on standby. I’m sure Uncle Sam Donald’s got a few C-5s and a lot of C17s he could loan us in a real emergency, and there’s plenty of idle civvy 747Fs around - maybe even some airworthy ones.
    The better question is why you even think this is an appropriate conversation in a first world state. But of course your "we" is brought live from Dubai.
    I think @sandpit would love to live in the U.K.

    Unfortunately the current immigration system discriminated against his wife in favour of unskilled EU citizens.

    So he can’t
    Thanks Charles. Yes it’s difficult, but I’m hoping to be back soon, in the next couple of years.
    BTW I only mention it because you posted it - let me know if you rather I didn’t
    It's all good. I just get annoyed sometimes when people try and play the man and not the ball, often with little or no understanding of what's behind the man. As yourself and others have said, it's all a little tetchy and polarised on here at the moment. Lunch time I think.
  • Charles said:

    Charles said:

    If I can love a Corbynite I’m sure I can love a Leaver.

    https://twitter.com/tseofpb/status/1087263042495234048?s=21

    Leavers accept people for who they are. Remainers are judgemental.
    Yea, right! I haven't met any xenophobic remainers so don't talk crap.
    37% of Remainers would mind a lot/little if a close relative married a Leaver vs 9% for the obverse

    That seems pretty judgemental to me.

    But perhaps you can explain how I am misunderstanding the data?
    Yes, a very silly poll. The reality is that xenophobia and an irrational fear of immigrants is what motivated many to vote leave. Your suggestion that Leave voters, followers of a warped philosophy founded on prejudice against foreigners are less judgemental is laughable in the extreme. Anyway, better do some work and leave you retired folk to argue how being Leave and not being judgemental are compatible. One of the funniest and most stupid things I have ever seen on here!!
  • asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,276
    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    What I'm currently struggling with is identifying the platform that will get someone elected as Conservative party leader that will also command the confidence of the House of Commons. I can see one, I can see the other, but I can't see what does both.

    Michael Gove? He’d keep the DUP on board and limit the Con defections to Grieve and Soubry?

    It is awfully tight Parliamentary arithmetic though, a change of PM might not be enough to solve the impasse.
    Whoever becomes Conservative leader is going to have to make commitments. Those commitments are going to break the Conservative party.
    You can see now why May so desperately needed those 350 MPs last year. She could have both struck a fairer deal and marginalised the irreducible core of 30 or so hardliners.

    In my gut I knew it was all over when I saw that exit poll.
    The irreducible core of hardliners is closer to 75.
    Grieve, Wollaston, Soubry et al don't number 75.
    The moderate wing are fewer in number, but there are enough promised resignations in the event of no deal to lose the government's majority, adding immediate political crisis into the mix.
    Why are we calling Grieve, Wollaston, Soubry et al the "moderate wing" ?

    They are as entrenched and inflexible in their rebellion as any of the ERG. There's many names that each faction can be given, but it should be accepted that they are all hardliners, remainers and leavers
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    If I can love a Corbynite I’m sure I can love a Leaver.

    https://twitter.com/tseofpb/status/1087263042495234048?s=21

    Leavers accept people for who they are. Remainers are judgemental.
    Yea, right! I haven't met any xenophobic remainers so don't talk crap.
    37% of Remainers would mind a lot/little if a close relative married a Leaver vs 9% for the obverse

    That seems pretty judgemental to me.

    But perhaps you can explain how I am misunderstanding the data?
    Yes, a very silly poll. The reality is that xenophobia and an irrational fear of immigrants is what motivated many to vote leave. Your suggestion that Leave voters, followers of a warped philosophy founded on prejudice against foreigners are less judgemental is laughable in the extreme. Anyway, better do some work and leave you retired folk to argue how being Leave and not being judgemental are compatible. One of the funniest and most stupid things I have ever seen on here!!
    I’m not retired!

    And I was just responding to what was - as you note - a silly poll rather than making a wider point
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    edited January 2019
    Charles said:

    matt said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:



    Yes, as a last resort we’d be moving medicines on military transport planes if that was what was required. I expect such plans are already well advanced and ready to go at very short notice.

    The forward fleet is 8 x A330, 14 x A400M, 7 x C17 and 14 x C-130J. When you take away a/c committed to training, in maintenance and already on ops there isn't exactly a lot of spare capacity sat on the ramp at BZN. They would probably end up recalling some the A330 AirTanker fleet from the civilian lessors. Suddenly the AirTanker PFI looks like a good idea! However if that's what needs to be done then now would be the time do it.
    Agree that we need to start on execution ASAP. If, as seems increasingly likely. the political argument is going to do down to a week or two before the deadline, then we’d better be ready for any outcome.

    That’s not a bad transport fleet, although as you say they’re not all just sitting at Brize on standby. I’m sure Uncle Sam Donald’s got a few C-5s and a lot of C17s he could loan us in a real emergency, and there’s plenty of idle civvy 747Fs around - maybe even some airworthy ones.
    The better question is why you even think this is an appropriate conversation in a first world state. But of course your "we" is brought live from Dubai.
    I think @sandpit would love to live in the U.K.

    Unfortunately the current immigration system discriminated against his wife in favour of unskilled EU citizens.

    So he can’t
    us

    Charles said:

    If I can love a Corbynite I’m sure I can love a Leaver.

    https://twitter.com/tseofpb/status/1087263042495234048?s=21

    Leavers accept people for who they are. Remainers are judgemental.
    Leavers are just happy to see people die or lose their jobs in order to secure Brexit.
    Remainers are just happy to see people die in order to secure Remain.

    There are unsavoury elements on both sides of this debate.
    You really are bonkers.

    No wonder you support Brexit, a movement which now actively desires the crash of the economy and all the ensuing misery.

    Take 10 minutes, do some heavy breathing, keep taking the pills, and then come back on PB when you have something valuable to share.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Hancock - hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha !

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,273

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    What I'm currently struggling with is identifying the platform that will get someone elected as Conservative party leader that will also command the confidence of the House of Commons. I can see one, I can see the other, but I can't see what does both.

    Michael Gove? He’d keep the DUP on board and limit the Con defections to Grieve and Soubry?

    It is awfully tight Parliamentary arithmetic though, a change of PM might not be enough to solve the impasse.
    Whoever becomes Conservative leader is going to have to make commitments. Those commitments are going to break the Conservative party.
    You can see now why May so desperately needed those 350 MPs last year. She could have both struck a fairer deal and marginalised the irreducible core of 30 or so hardliners.

    In my gut I knew it was all over when I saw that exit poll.
    The irreducible core of hardliners is closer to 75.
    Grieve, Wollaston, Soubry et al don't number 75.
    The moderate wing are fewer in number, but there are enough promised resignations in the event of no deal to lose the government's majority, adding immediate political crisis into the mix.
    Why are we calling Grieve, Wollaston, Soubry et al the "moderate wing" ?

    They are as entrenched and inflexible in their rebellion as any of the ERG. There's many names that each faction can be given, but it should be accepted that they are all hardliners, remainers and leavers
    Because on the broad left to right spread of the HoC, they are near the middle.

    It's not difficult.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    What I'm currently struggling with is identifying the platform that will get someone elected as Conservative party leader that will also command the confidence of the House of Commons. I can see one, I can see the other, but I can't see what does both.

    Michael Gove? He’d keep the DUP on board and limit the Con defections to Grieve and Soubry?

    It is awfully tight Parliamentary arithmetic though, a change of PM might not be enough to solve the impasse.
    Whoever becomes Conservative leader is going to have to make commitments. Those commitments are going to break the Conservative party.
    You can see now why May so desperately needed those 350 MPs last year. She could have both struck a fairer deal and marginalised the irreducible core of 30 or so hardliners.

    In my gut I knew it was all over when I saw that exit poll.
    The irreducible core of hardliners is closer to 75.
    Grieve, Wollaston, Soubry et al don't number 75.
    The moderate wing are fewer in number, but there are enough promised resignations in the event of no deal to lose the government's majority, adding immediate political crisis into the mix.
    Why are we calling Grieve, Wollaston, Soubry et al the "moderate wing" ?

    They are as entrenched and inflexible in their rebellion as any of the ERG. There's many names that each faction can be given, but it should be accepted that they are all hardliners, remainers and leavers
    They aren't a wing - they are in the wrong party. Their local associations should be deselecting them now.
  • IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    What I'm currently struggling with is identifying the platform that will get someone elected as Conservative party leader that will also command the confidence of the House of Commons. I can see one, I can see the other, but I can't see what does both.

    Michael Gove? He’d keep the DUP on board and limit the Con defections to Grieve and Soubry?

    It is awfully tight Parliamentary arithmetic though, a change of PM might not be enough to solve the impasse.
    Whoever becomes Conservative leader is going to have to make commitments. Those commitments are going to break the Conservative party.
    You can see now why May so desperately needed those 350 MPs last year. She could have both struck a fairer deal and marginalised the irreducible core of 30 or so hardliners.

    In my gut I knew it was all over when I saw that exit poll.
    The irreducible core of hardliners is closer to 75.
    Grieve, Wollaston, Soubry et al don't number 75.
    The moderate wing are fewer in number, but there are enough promised resignations in the event of no deal to lose the government's majority, adding immediate political crisis into the mix.
    Why are we calling Grieve, Wollaston, Soubry et al the "moderate wing" ?

    They are as entrenched and inflexible in their rebellion as any of the ERG. There's many names that each faction can be given, but it should be accepted that they are all hardliners, remainers and leavers
    Because on the broad left to right spread of the HoC, they are near the middle.

    It's not difficult.
    On the broad spread of the government benches they are very hardline.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,273

    Another PB thread worth avoiding ....

    I think you might be right. That full moon is having some serious effects! :smile:
  • Charles said:

    If I can love a Corbynite I’m sure I can love a Leaver.

    https://twitter.com/tseofpb/status/1087263042495234048?s=21

    Leavers accept people for who they are. Remainers are judgemental.
    Leavers are just happy to see people die or lose their jobs in order to secure Brexit.
    Remainers are just happy to see people die in order to secure Remain.

    There are unsavoury elements on both sides of this debate.
    Not happy to see people die you moron. That is typical gammon faced deliberate misunderstanding of facts, or possibly downright stupidity. What many of us have said is that when the late middle aged and elderly that still hold prejudiced views (I am part of this age demographic) die out the younger less prejudiced will probably vote us back in. That does not mean anyone is "happy to see people die". Psychopathy is the preserve of your religion mate.
    When are Canadians going to vote to join the USA?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    eek said:

    I’d also point out my job was effectively relocated to Germany thanks to Brexit.

    Something Leavers said wouldn’t happen either.

    what your new employer is sending you to Germany as well ?
    No.

    But I liked my old job but others don’t have the luxury I have.
    You mean like factory workers who have had their jobs sent out to Europe for years now and whose upside was a fairly weak redundancy package ?

    Thats the world we have made Mr Eagles and anyone protesting was told to shut up.
    The problem with that argument is that it doesn't solve anything - it's like a child having a temper tantrum because he can't have ice cream while someone else is eating one...
    Alanbrooke seems to support Brexit so that everyone can suffer.
    Now youre just off one handed posting again.

    I get monumentally bored posting I voted Brexit and wanted a soft Brexit and would happily vote for Mrs Ms deal. In your madcap world where everyone is Nigel Farages evil twin there is no room for understanding others positions. But there you go.
    Your stock post is a bitch about how the elite have let manufacturing down these past twenty years.

    Therefore, Brexit is worth voting for so that the “elite” get a taste of their own medicine.

    It’s simple nihilism.
    Not just manufacturing but whole swathes of the economy, retail is currently going through the process now and IT will be next. And then of course theres growth in salaries, regional differences accentuating etc.

    Pointing out that the current consensus is failing might unsettle you but its simply the start of a process which will see a new form of politics emerge. Its anything but nihilistic.
    I have posted many times on how the current consensus has failed (and usually poo-poohed by the PB Tories for my troubles), but the answer is not to bring the temple crashing down.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,008

    Charles said:

    matt said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:



    Yes, as a last resort we’d be moving medicines on military transport planes if that was what was required. I expect such plans are already well advanced and ready to go at very short notice.

    The forward fleet is 8 x A330, 14 x A400M, 7 x C17 and 14 x C-130J. When you take away a/c committed to training, in maintenance and already on ops there isn't exactly a lot of spare capacity sat on the ramp at BZN. They would probably end up recalling some the A330 AirTanker fleet from the civilian lessors. Suddenly the AirTanker PFI looks like a good idea! However if that's what needs to be done then now would be the time do it.
    Agree that we need to start on execution ASAP. If, as seems increasingly likely. the political argument is going to do down to a week or two before the deadline, then we’d better be ready for any outcome.

    That’s not a bad transport fleet, although as you say they’re not all just sitting at Brize on standby. I’m sure Uncle Sam Donald’s got a few C-5s and a lot of C17s he could loan us in a real emergency, and there’s plenty of idle civvy 747Fs around - maybe even some airworthy ones.
    The better question is why you even think this is an appropriate conversation in a first world state. But of course your "we" is brought live from Dubai.
    I think @sandpit would love to live in the U.K.

    Unfortunately the current immigration system discriminated against his wife in favour of unskilled EU citizens.

    So he can’t
    Fake news, as us

    Charles said:

    If I can love a Corbynite I’m sure I can love a Leaver.

    https://twitter.com/tseofpb/status/1087263042495234048?s=21

    Leavers accept people for who they are. Remainers are judgemental.
    Leavers are just happy to see people die or lose their jobs in order to secure Brexit.
    Remainers are just happy to see people die in order to secure Remain.

    There are unsavoury elements on both sides of this debate.
    You really are bonkers.

    No wonder you support Brexit, a movement which now actively desires the crash of the economy and all the ensuing misery.

    Take 10 minutes, do some heavy breathing, keep taking the pills, and then come back on PB when you have something valuable to share.
    Do you deny that many Remainers have been sharing and applauding the deathorendum monitor, arguing the scales have already tipped because many of the 2016 Leave voters have now died of old age?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,392

    Incidentally, what time will our illustrious leader be laying out her new and even more fantastic proposals?

    Last November. Nothing has changed since then.
  • asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,276

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    What I'm currently struggling with is identifying the platform that will get someone elected as Conservative party leader that will also command the confidence of the House of Commons. I can see one, I can see the other, but I can't see what does both.

    Michael Gove? He’d keep the DUP on board and limit the Con defections to Grieve and Soubry?

    It is awfully tight Parliamentary arithmetic though, a change of PM might not be enough to solve the impasse.
    Whoever becomes Conservative leader is going to have to make commitments. Those commitments are going to break the Conservative party.
    You can see now why May so desperately needed those 350 MPs last year. She could have both struck a fairer deal and marginalised the irreducible core of 30 or so hardliners.

    In my gut I knew it was all over when I saw that exit poll.
    The irreducible core of hardliners is closer to 75.
    Grieve, Wollaston, Soubry et al don't number 75.
    The moderate wing are fewer in number, but there are enough promised resignations in the event of no deal to lose the government's majority, adding immediate political crisis into the mix.
    Why are we calling Grieve, Wollaston, Soubry et al the "moderate wing" ?

    They are as entrenched and inflexible in their rebellion as any of the ERG. There's many names that each faction can be given, but it should be accepted that they are all hardliners, remainers and leavers
    Because on the broad left to right spread of the HoC, they are near the middle.

    It's not difficult.
    It's more difficult than you make it sound, Brexit isn't a left vs right issue; the dividing line, esp in the tory party is sovereignty vs internationalist.

    They are hardline rebels attempting to flout the manifesto they were elected on
This discussion has been closed.