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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Govey maintaining and extending his lead in the next CON leade

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  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,930

    malcolmg said:

    Michael Gove would be my choice of leader and if not Chancellor. His tour de force traducing Corbyn last week at the dispatch box last week was a masterclass and the labour mps knew it as you watched their horrified expressions

    And on another subject does any agree with me that Davos is an affront to decency and demonstrates all that is wrong with big business and obscene wealth

    Adam Boulton on Sky this morning said it costs a CEO $250,000 to attend

    G, Gove is almost as big a liar as May and is at least as useless to boot. An absolute whinging duffer of the first order. Almost anyone would be better than him ( non Tories as they are mainly duffers at this point).
    hey malcolm. We're going to see the new Mary Queen of Scots film soon. How is she thought of up your way? and do you call her something different?
    Saw Colette yesterday. Two other pensioners walked out.
  • Options
    BudGBudG Posts: 711
    Chris said:

    Scott_P said:
    What does it imply if he's saying that not all the legislation required for No Deal will be ready for Brexit date?

    That even No Dealers would have to ask for an extension?
    So, can anyone tell me what happens if we do not have all the required legislation passed by 29th March and we crash out? Is this the scenario where planes fall out of the sky etc?
  • Options
    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    What has the EU ever done for us?

    Well, off the top of my head...

    - they forced us to clean up our beaches
    - they forced us to stop treating junior doctors as a form of slave
    - easier study for students and researchers at foreign universities
    - better drug regulation
    - more controls on tobacco resale
    - cheaper flights & holidays
    - cheaper phone roaming
    - upset Richard Tyndall
    - enhanced security via inter-agency cooperation
    Are you sure you've got your anatomical reference right?
    Yes.
    God bless the Irish
    He would do - if there was a God ;)
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,818

    malcolmg said:

    Michael Gove would be my choice of leader and if not Chancellor. His tour de force traducing Corbyn last week at the dispatch box last week was a masterclass and the labour mps knew it as you watched their horrified expressions

    And on another subject does any agree with me that Davos is an affront to decency and demonstrates all that is wrong with big business and obscene wealth

    Adam Boulton on Sky this morning said it costs a CEO $250,000 to attend

    G, Gove is almost as big a liar as May and is at least as useless to boot. An absolute whinging duffer of the first order. Almost anyone would be better than him ( non Tories as they are mainly duffers at this point).
    hey malcolm. We're going to see the new Mary Queen of Scots film soon. How is she thought of up your way? and do you call her something different?
    Paul, I believe reasonably well thought of , hard done by her English cousin but that was par for the course in those days. I believe they have taken plenty of poetic licence with the real facts for this film, be interested to hear what you think of it.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799

    malcolmg said:

    Michael Gove would be my choice of leader and if not Chancellor. His tour de force traducing Corbyn last week at the dispatch box last week was a masterclass and the labour mps knew it as you watched their horrified expressions

    And on another subject does any agree with me that Davos is an affront to decency and demonstrates all that is wrong with big business and obscene wealth

    Adam Boulton on Sky this morning said it costs a CEO $250,000 to attend

    G, Gove is almost as big a liar as May and is at least as useless to boot. An absolute whinging duffer of the first order. Almost anyone would be better than him ( non Tories as they are mainly duffers at this point).
    hey malcolm. We're going to see the new Mary Queen of Scots film soon. How is she thought of up your way? and do you call her something different?
    Saw Colette yesterday. Two other pensioners walked out.
    Were they disgusted by sex scenes?
  • Options
    Sean_F said:

    malcolmg said:

    Michael Gove would be my choice of leader and if not Chancellor. His tour de force traducing Corbyn last week at the dispatch box last week was a masterclass and the labour mps knew it as you watched their horrified expressions

    And on another subject does any agree with me that Davos is an affront to decency and demonstrates all that is wrong with big business and obscene wealth

    Adam Boulton on Sky this morning said it costs a CEO $250,000 to attend

    G, Gove is almost as big a liar as May and is at least as useless to boot. An absolute whinging duffer of the first order. Almost anyone would be better than him ( non Tories as they are mainly duffers at this point).
    hey malcolm. We're going to see the new Mary Queen of Scots film soon. How is she thought of up your way? and do you call her something different?
    Saw Colette yesterday. Two other pensioners walked out.
    Were they disgusted by sex scenes?
    Or lack thereof?
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,930
    Sean_F said:

    malcolmg said:

    Michael Gove would be my choice of leader and if not Chancellor. His tour de force traducing Corbyn last week at the dispatch box last week was a masterclass and the labour mps knew it as you watched their horrified expressions

    And on another subject does any agree with me that Davos is an affront to decency and demonstrates all that is wrong with big business and obscene wealth

    Adam Boulton on Sky this morning said it costs a CEO $250,000 to attend

    G, Gove is almost as big a liar as May and is at least as useless to boot. An absolute whinging duffer of the first order. Almost anyone would be better than him ( non Tories as they are mainly duffers at this point).
    hey malcolm. We're going to see the new Mary Queen of Scots film soon. How is she thought of up your way? and do you call her something different?
    Saw Colette yesterday. Two other pensioners walked out.
    Were they disgusted by sex scenes?
    Dunno. Actually there weren't that many after they left.

    Brought back memories as far as we were concerned; the straight ones anyway.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    What has the EU ever done for us?

    Well, off the top of my head...

    - they forced us to clean up our beaches
    - they forced us to stop treating junior doctors as a form of slave
    - easier study for students and researchers at foreign universities
    - better drug regulation
    - more controls on tobacco resale
    - cheaper flights & holidays
    - cheaper phone roaming
    - upset Richard Tyndall
    - enhanced security via inter-agency cooperation
    Are you sure you've got your anatomical reference right?
    Yes.
    God bless the Irish
    He would do - if there was a God ;)
    Don't tell the Irish!
  • Options
    StreeterStreeter Posts: 684
    Sean_F said:

    Streeter said:

    Streeter said:

    Nigelb said:


    When do you start the campaign for a free and independent Lincolnshire (apols if wrong county) - out from under the oppressive hand of those overbearing Londoners?

    I have posted many times on here about the need for massive transfers of power from London to the counties and districts so I am already well ahead of you.
    Where does it stop? When you establish the Independent Peoples Republic of Tyndallshire (population 1)? Will you negotiate FTAs with the milkman and electric board?
    It is very straight forward. So straight forward even a Remainer should be able to understand it.

    Power rests with the individual. They make all the decisions that can be made without needing a collective consideration.

    What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the Parish or neighbourhood level.
    What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the District level.
    What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the County level.
    What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the National level.

    By the time you get there, there is basically nothing that cannot be dealt with.....
    Well we aren't making a spectacular success of dealing with it at the national level right now...
    We have made a mess of it for the past 45 years. What we are doing now is trying to put that right.
    I've seen that argument before; that all our woes in the last 40 odd years are the fault of the EU.
    Can't follow it myself. I thought we'd had Government's who'd made decisions.
    I certainly don't say all of our problems. But membership of the EU certainly hasn't helped and has in many ways hindered our progress as a nation.
    Really, really don't see it.
    What has the EU ever done for us?
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/draft-european-regional-development-fund-operational-programme-2014-to-2020
    Giving us a fraction of our own money back to us at great bureaucratic expense?
    Obvious retort. Very poor.
    But accurate.
    Its accuracy is entirely dependent on the assumption that the U.K. government would spend similar amounts on regeneration. As we all know, that would be wrong.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,930

    Sean_F said:

    malcolmg said:

    Michael Gove would be my choice of leader and if not Chancellor. His tour de force traducing Corbyn last week at the dispatch box last week was a masterclass and the labour mps knew it as you watched their horrified expressions

    And on another subject does any agree with me that Davos is an affront to decency and demonstrates all that is wrong with big business and obscene wealth

    Adam Boulton on Sky this morning said it costs a CEO $250,000 to attend

    G, Gove is almost as big a liar as May and is at least as useless to boot. An absolute whinging duffer of the first order. Almost anyone would be better than him ( non Tories as they are mainly duffers at this point).
    hey malcolm. We're going to see the new Mary Queen of Scots film soon. How is she thought of up your way? and do you call her something different?
    Saw Colette yesterday. Two other pensioners walked out.
    Were they disgusted by sex scenes?
    Or lack thereof?
    Have you seen the film, Mr N?
  • Options
    Streeter said:

    Streeter said:

    Nigelb said:


    When do you start the campaign for a free and independent Lincolnshire (apols if wrong county) - out from under the oppressive hand of those overbearing Londoners?

    I have posted many times on here about the need for massive transfers of power from London to the counties and districts so I am already well ahead of you.
    Where does it stop? When you establish the Independent Peoples Republic of Tyndallshire (population 1)? Will you negotiate FTAs with the milkman and electric board?
    It is very straight forward. So straight forward even a Remainer should be able to understand it.

    Power rests with the individual. They make all the decisions that can be made without needing a collective consideration.

    What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the Parish or neighbourhood level.
    What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the District level.
    What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the County level.
    What cannot be decided at that level then moves up to the National level.

    By the time you get there, there is basically nothing that cannot be dealt with.....
    Well we aren't making a spectacular success of dealing with it at the national level right now...
    We have made a mess of it for the past 45 years. What we are doing now is trying to put that right.
    I've seen that argument before; that all our woes in the last 40 odd years are the fault of the EU.
    Can't follow it myself. I thought we'd had Government's who'd made decisions.
    I certainly don't say all of our problems. But membership of the EU certainly hasn't helped and has in many ways hindered our progress as a nation.
    Really, really don't see it.
    What has the EU ever done for us?
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/draft-european-regional-development-fund-operational-programme-2014-to-2020
    Giving us a fraction of our own money back to us at great bureaucratic expense?
    Obvious retort. Very poor.
    Obvious because it's so obviously true. Very poor to make a silly claim with such an obvious retort.
  • Options
    paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 2,461
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Michael Gove would be my choice of leader and if not Chancellor. His tour de force traducing Corbyn last week at the dispatch box last week was a masterclass and the labour mps knew it as you watched their horrified expressions

    And on another subject does any agree with me that Davos is an affront to decency and demonstrates all that is wrong with big business and obscene wealth

    Adam Boulton on Sky this morning said it costs a CEO $250,000 to attend

    G, Gove is almost as big a liar as May and is at least as useless to boot. An absolute whinging duffer of the first order. Almost anyone would be better than him ( non Tories as they are mainly duffers at this point).
    hey malcolm. We're going to see the new Mary Queen of Scots film soon. How is she thought of up your way? and do you call her something different?
    Paul, I believe reasonably well thought of , hard done by her English cousin but that was par for the course in those days. I believe they have taken plenty of poetic licence with the real facts for this film, be interested to hear what you think of it.
    cheers. I'm not a stickler for facts in historical movies as long as they are getting the important stuff right. Loved Bohemian Rhapsody despite people telling where it was factually incorrect.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    malcolmg said:

    Michael Gove would be my choice of leader and if not Chancellor. His tour de force traducing Corbyn last week at the dispatch box last week was a masterclass and the labour mps knew it as you watched their horrified expressions

    And on another subject does any agree with me that Davos is an affront to decency and demonstrates all that is wrong with big business and obscene wealth

    Adam Boulton on Sky this morning said it costs a CEO $250,000 to attend

    G, Gove is almost as big a liar as May and is at least as useless to boot. An absolute whinging duffer of the first order. Almost anyone would be better than him ( non Tories as they are mainly duffers at this point).
    Hi Malc - my family like Gove's work in his present role and to be honest I have no problem with him as Chancellor or even PM
    Chancellor is as far as I would have him.....
  • Options

    Sean_F said:

    malcolmg said:

    Michael Gove would be my choice of leader and if not Chancellor. His tour de force traducing Corbyn last week at the dispatch box last week was a masterclass and the labour mps knew it as you watched their horrified expressions

    And on another subject does any agree with me that Davos is an affront to decency and demonstrates all that is wrong with big business and obscene wealth

    Adam Boulton on Sky this morning said it costs a CEO $250,000 to attend

    G, Gove is almost as big a liar as May and is at least as useless to boot. An absolute whinging duffer of the first order. Almost anyone would be better than him ( non Tories as they are mainly duffers at this point).
    hey malcolm. We're going to see the new Mary Queen of Scots film soon. How is she thought of up your way? and do you call her something different?
    Saw Colette yesterday. Two other pensioners walked out.
    Were they disgusted by sex scenes?
    Or lack thereof?
    Have you seen the film, Mr N?
    No, I haven't. Went to Stan & Ollie last weekend instead, which was pleasant enough and very well done, but lightweight.
  • Options
    Looks like JRM is not bluffing over proroguing Parliament threatening to compromise the government majority

    He is losing it and at the same time Brexit
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799
    Streeter said:

    Sean_F said:

    Streeter said:

    Streeter said:

    Nigelb said:


    When do you start the campaign for a free and independent Lincolnshire (apols if wrong county) - out from under the oppressive hand of those overbearing Londoners?

    I have posted many times on here about the need for massive transfers of power from London to the counties and districts so I am already well ahead of you.
    Where does it stop? When you establish the Independent Peoples Republic of Tyndallshire (population 1)? Will you negotiate FTAs with the milkman and electric board?
    It is very straight forward. So straight forward even a Remainer should be able to understand it.

    Power rests with the individual. They make all the decisions that can be made without needing a collective consideration.



    By the time you get there, there is basically nothing that cannot be dealt with.....
    Well we aren't making a spectacular success of dealing with it at the national level right now...
    We have made a mess of it for the past 45 years. What we are doing now is trying to put that right.
    I've seen that argument before; that all our woes in the last 40 odd years are the fault of the EU.
    Can't follow it myself. I thought we'd had Government's who'd made decisions.
    I certainly don't say all of our problems. But membership of the EU certainly hasn't helped and has in many ways hindered our progress as a nation.
    Really, really don't see it.
    What has the EU ever done for us?
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/draft-european-regional-development-fund-operational-programme-2014-to-2020
    Giving us a fraction of our own money back to us at great bureaucratic expense?
    Obvious retort. Very poor.
    But accurate.
    Its accuracy is entirely dependent on the assumption that the U.K. government would spend similar amounts on regeneration. As we all know, that would be wrong.
    As it happens, we don't know that. The government makes huge transfer payments from richer to poorer parts of the country.
  • Options

    RobD said:

    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    Yet the Tories will not stop until our country is ruined.
    Yet UK employment keeps rising.
    Ruined!
    It's odd isn't it. Apparently full-employment, a few straws about wages rising, but there's still a significant number of our fellow-countryfolk in poverty.
    There always will be as long as we have relative poverty. We could eliminate relative poverty today by impoverishing everyone equally. On a global level our "impoverished" are very well off with their healthcare etc paid for too.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799

    Sean_F said:

    malcolmg said:

    Michael Gove would be my choice of leader and if not Chancellor. His tour de force traducing Corbyn last week at the dispatch box last week was a masterclass and the labour mps knew it as you watched their horrified expressions

    And on another subject does any agree with me that Davos is an affront to decency and demonstrates all that is wrong with big business and obscene wealth

    Adam Boulton on Sky this morning said it costs a CEO $250,000 to attend

    G, Gove is almost as big a liar as May and is at least as useless to boot. An absolute whinging duffer of the first order. Almost anyone would be better than him ( non Tories as they are mainly duffers at this point).
    hey malcolm. We're going to see the new Mary Queen of Scots film soon. How is she thought of up your way? and do you call her something different?
    Saw Colette yesterday. Two other pensioners walked out.
    Were they disgusted by sex scenes?
    Or lack thereof?
    My grandmother and her sister walked out of the Killing of Sister George, because it contained a lesbian sex scene (this was 1969). When I watched it, the sex scene was so obscure that I didn't even know that it was meant to be a sex scene.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,322
    Sean_F said:



    I don't think there's a right or wrong answer on the age of consent. Most of would probably agree that it's wrong to have sex with pre-pubescent children, but there are entirely valid arguments to be had about whether the age should be 14, 15, 16, 17, or 18, and whether it makes a difference if the older party is in a position of authority. I can see no reason at all to set such a law at a worldwide level.

    Different countries will come to different conclusions on such a matter, along with such things as taxation, criminal justice, free speech, the age of majority etc. I can see no pressing reasons to take such decisions out of their hands.,

    It's such an emotive issue that there are problems in major differences in practice - one country may regard something as quite normal while another thinks it paedophilia and demands deportation of anyone involved. The age of consent in Japan is 13, as I understand it - are we OK with older Brits going to Japan to sleep with 13-year-olds? I think there's a case for international harmonisation if it can be achieved.
  • Options
    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    RobD said:

    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    Yet the Tories will not stop until our country is ruined.
    Yet UK employment keeps rising.
    Ruined!
    It's odd isn't it. Apparently full-employment, a few straws about wages rising, but there's still a significant number of our fellow-countryfolk in poverty.
    Most poverty is those in employment.

    Depends on the definition of poverty of course and if it is measured relative to others then there will always be people in poverty.
    There will always be people who are better paid than others, but we do seem to have gone back to Victorian levels where some people are being paid less than they need to live a tolerable life.
    It is all part of the return to Victorian grinding poverty sunnily lit uplands promised by the Brexiteers!
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,249

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Michael Gove would be my choice of leader and if not Chancellor. His tour de force traducing Corbyn last week at the dispatch box last week was a masterclass and the labour mps knew it as you watched their horrified expressions

    And on another subject does any agree with me that Davos is an affront to decency and demonstrates all that is wrong with big business and obscene wealth

    Adam Boulton on Sky this morning said it costs a CEO $250,000 to attend

    G, Gove is almost as big a liar as May and is at least as useless to boot. An absolute whinging duffer of the first order. Almost anyone would be better than him ( non Tories as they are mainly duffers at this point).
    hey malcolm. We're going to see the new Mary Queen of Scots film soon. How is she thought of up your way? and do you call her something different?
    Paul, I believe reasonably well thought of , hard done by her English cousin but that was par for the course in those days. I believe they have taken plenty of poetic licence with the real facts for this film, be interested to hear what you think of it.
    cheers. I'm not a stickler for facts in historical movies as long as they are getting the important stuff right. Loved Bohemian Rhapsody despite people telling where it was factually incorrect.
    It's a huge shame that the Freddie Mercury/Sacha Baron Cohen film was never made as it was supposed to be too much warts and all (literally, I imagine) - I'm sure that would have been a great, gritty, harsh but fair portrayal.

    Not seen this version, that said - not a fan at all of biopics. If I'm going to see or learn about someone who existed I'd rather see a documentary.

    And in that regard I've finally finished Burns' Vietnam. An amazing piece of work - is his WWII one as good, anyone?
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,930
    edited January 2019

    Sean_F said:

    malcolmg said:

    Michael Gove would be my choice of leader and if not Chancellor. His tour de force traducing Corbyn last week at the dispatch box last week was a masterclass and the labour mps knew it as you watched their horrified expressions

    And on another subject does any agree with me that Davos is an affront to decency and demonstrates all that is wrong with big business and obscene wealth

    Adam Boulton on Sky this morning said it costs a CEO $250,000 to attend

    G, Gove is almost as big a liar as May and is at least as useless to boot. An absolute whinging duffer of the first order. Almost anyone would be better than him ( non Tories as they are mainly duffers at this point).
    hey malcolm. We're going to see the new Mary Queen of Scots film soon. How is she thought of up your way? and do you call her something different?
    Saw Colette yesterday. Two other pensioners walked out.
    Were they disgusted by sex scenes?
    Or lack thereof?
    Have you seen the film, Mr N?
    No, I haven't. Went to Stan & Ollie last weekend instead, which was pleasant enough and very well done, but lightweight.
    Leaving aside the steamy bits, which were, in fairness, appropriate to the plot and not (just) there for titillation, it was a very good description of the unreasonable domination of a woman by her husband, and how she first broke free then succeeded as a writer.
    Can't comment on the historical accuracy ........ which I gather is a problem with Mary, Queen of Scots.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,793

    Kay Burley of Sky has been reporting all day from the Irish border and only a handful of vehicles have passed her

    It is so quiet why all the fuss

    Kay Burley on the Northern Irish border... What could go wrong? :D
  • Options
    paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 2,461
    TOPPING said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Michael Gove would be my choice of leader and if not Chancellor. His tour de force traducing Corbyn last week at the dispatch box last week was a masterclass and the labour mps knew it as you watched their horrified expressions

    And on another subject does any agree with me that Davos is an affront to decency and demonstrates all that is wrong with big business and obscene wealth

    Adam Boulton on Sky this morning said it costs a CEO $250,000 to attend

    G, Gove is almost as big a liar as May and is at least as useless to boot. An absolute whinging duffer of the first order. Almost anyone would be better than him ( non Tories as they are mainly duffers at this point).
    hey malcolm. We're going to see the new Mary Queen of Scots film soon. How is she thought of up your way? and do you call her something different?
    Paul, I believe reasonably well thought of , hard done by her English cousin but that was par for the course in those days. I believe they have taken plenty of poetic licence with the real facts for this film, be interested to hear what you think of it.
    cheers. I'm not a stickler for facts in historical movies as long as they are getting the important stuff right. Loved Bohemian Rhapsody despite people telling where it was factually incorrect.
    It's a huge shame that the Freddie Mercury/Sacha Baron Cohen film was never made as it was supposed to be too much warts and all (literally, I imagine) - I'm sure that would have been a great, gritty, harsh but fair portrayal.

    Not seen this version, that said - not a fan at all of biopics. If I'm going to see or learn about someone who existed I'd rather see a documentary.

    And in that regard I've finally finished Burns' Vietnam. An amazing piece of work - is his WWII one as good, anyone?
    I'm only up to about 1967/68 there. I'm sure his WW2 one will be as good but there aren't so many gaps to fill in for me there. I could watch his ACW documentary over and over.
  • Options
    StreeterStreeter Posts: 684
    Sean_F said:

    Streeter said:

    Sean_F said:

    Streeter said:

    Streeter said:

    Nigelb said:


    When do you start the campaign for a free and independent Lincolnshire (apols if wrong county) - out from under the oppressive hand of those overbearing Londoners?

    I have posted many times on here about the need for massive transfers of power from London to the counties and districts so I am already well ahead of you.
    Where does it stop? When you establish the Independent Peoples Republic of Tyndallshire (population 1)? Will you negotiate FTAs with the milkman and electric board?




    By the time you get there, there is basically nothing that cannot be dealt with.....
    Well we aren't making a spectacular success of dealing with it at the national level right now...
    We have made a mess of it for the past 45 years. What we are doing now is trying to put that right.
    I've seen that argument before; that all our woes in the last 40 odd years are the fault of the EU.
    Can't follow it myself. I thought we'd had Government's who'd made decisions.
    I certainly don't say all of our problems. But membership of the EU certainly hasn't helped and has in many ways hindered our progress as a nation.
    Really, really don't see it.
    What has the EU ever done for us?
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/draft-european-regional-development-fund-operational-programme-2014-to-2020
    Giving us a fraction of our own money back to us at great bureaucratic expense?
    Obvious retort. Very poor.
    But accurate.
    Its accuracy is entirely dependent on the assumption that the U.K. government would spend similar amounts on regeneration. As we all know, that would be wrong.
    As it happens, we don't know that. The government makes huge transfer payments from richer to poorer parts of the country.
    Like this?

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/07/surrey-council-boss-tells-gentlemans-agreement-ministers-social/amp/
  • Options
    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    brendan16 said:

    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:
    The favoured options are Remain 37%, No Deal 29%, May's Deal 23%.
    So that's 52% leave 37% remain?!

    Mrs May's deal is also the least popular but the most acceptable. But it seems half the country won't be happy with any option.

    Here's the data split by 2016 vote. The deal is acceptable to an absolute majority of Leavers, and also a majority of Remainers (once you remove DKs). The No Deal / No Brexit options are predictably polarising.

    To be fair, acceptability is not quite the same as approval, but the Deal looks like the only option for moving on.

    https://twitter.com/NCPoliticsUK/status/1088097071863947264
  • Options

    RobD said:

    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    Yet the Tories will not stop until our country is ruined.
    Yet UK employment keeps rising.
    Ruined!
    It's odd isn't it. Apparently full-employment, a few straws about wages rising, but there's still a significant number of our fellow-countryfolk in poverty.
    There always will be as long as we have relative poverty. We could eliminate relative poverty today by impoverishing everyone equally. On a global level our "impoverished" are very well off with their healthcare etc paid for too.
    Many years ago my brother took his two eldest daughters and my mother to see Pretty Woman. As they were walking back, he asked my mother whether she liked it: "Yes, but it wasn't suitable for the girls". Later he asked the eldest daughter what she thought of it. "I liked it, but I don't think it was suitable for grandma."
  • Options

    What has the EU ever done for us?

    Well, off the top of my head...

    - they forced us to clean up our beaches
    - they forced us to stop treating junior doctors as a form of slave
    - easier study for students and researchers at foreign universities
    - better drug regulation
    - more controls on tobacco resale
    - cheaper flights & holidays
    - cheaper phone roaming
    - upset Richard Tyndall
    - enhanced security via inter-agency cooperation
    Well they didn't cause cheaper phone roaming for a start. Four of the Five main providers had already introduced cheap overseas roaming long before the EU got involved. Indeed they have also extended it to well beyond the EU - there are many countries around the world where you can use your phone just as if you were in the UK for both data and calls. The result of the phone companies not the EU.

    What the EU has done is devastated our most important marine reserves

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/dec/20/marine-life-worse-off-inside-protected-areas-analysis-reveals

    It has devastated our insect and wild flower populations

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/mar/23/eu-in-state-of-denial-over-destructive-impact-of-farming-on-wildlife

    It has prevented us introducing higher animal welfare standards such as banning live animal exports

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/how-eu-prevents-uk-banning-8000467

  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Sean_F said:



    I don't think there's a right or wrong answer on the age of consent. Most of would probably agree that it's wrong to have sex with pre-pubescent children, but there are entirely valid arguments to be had about whether the age should be 14, 15, 16, 17, or 18, and whether it makes a difference if the older party is in a position of authority. I can see no reason at all to set such a law at a worldwide level.

    Different countries will come to different conclusions on such a matter, along with such things as taxation, criminal justice, free speech, the age of majority etc. I can see no pressing reasons to take such decisions out of their hands.,

    It's such an emotive issue that there are problems in major differences in practice - one country may regard something as quite normal while another thinks it paedophilia and demands deportation of anyone involved. The age of consent in Japan is 13, as I understand it - are we OK with older Brits going to Japan to sleep with 13-year-olds? I think there's a case for international harmonisation if it can be achieved.
    I googled Japan in the hope they at least had a sliding scale saying that you have to be under say 21 to sleep with 13 y.o.s. What I actually find is that federal jap law says 13, but each and every prefecture has local law raising it to 18.
  • Options

    Sean_F said:



    I don't think there's a right or wrong answer on the age of consent. Most of would probably agree that it's wrong to have sex with pre-pubescent children, but there are entirely valid arguments to be had about whether the age should be 14, 15, 16, 17, or 18, and whether it makes a difference if the older party is in a position of authority. I can see no reason at all to set such a law at a worldwide level.

    Different countries will come to different conclusions on such a matter, along with such things as taxation, criminal justice, free speech, the age of majority etc. I can see no pressing reasons to take such decisions out of their hands.,

    It's such an emotive issue that there are problems in major differences in practice - one country may regard something as quite normal while another thinks it paedophilia and demands deportation of anyone involved. The age of consent in Japan is 13, as I understand it - are we OK with older Brits going to Japan to sleep with 13-year-olds? I think there's a case for international harmonisation if it can be achieved.
    But what if the international consensus is 13?
  • Options

    RobD said:

    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    Yet the Tories will not stop until our country is ruined.
    Yet UK employment keeps rising.
    Ruined!
    It's odd isn't it. Apparently full-employment, a few straws about wages rising, but there's still a significant number of our fellow-countryfolk in poverty.
    There always will be as long as we have relative poverty. We could eliminate relative poverty today by impoverishing everyone equally. On a global level our "impoverished" are very well off with their healthcare etc paid for too.
    What is the income of someone 1 penny into relative poverty?
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,917
    edited January 2019

    The Dutch may not be so happy when their agricultural exports to the UK go down, replaced by import substitution in the UK.

    This is not about the WA, it's about the UK leaving the single market. There is going to be a lot of business relocation over the coming years. Some will involve job losses, some will not. Almost all will result in the companies concerned paying less UK tax and investing less in the UK. It stands to reason. We will be a market of 65 million people rather than an integral part of one with a population of 450 million. That will inevitably make us far less significant for a lot of businesses that are currently here.

  • Options

    TOPPING said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Michael Gove would be my choice of leader and if not Chancellor. His tour de force traducing Corbyn last week at the dispatch box last week was a masterclass and the labour mps knew it as you watched their horrified expressions

    And on another subject does any agree with me that Davos is an affront to decency and demonstrates all that is wrong with big business and obscene wealth

    Adam Boulton on Sky this morning said it costs a CEO $250,000 to attend

    G, Gove is almost as big a liar as May and is at least as useless to boot. An absolute whinging duffer of the first order. Almost anyone would be better than him ( non Tories as they are mainly duffers at this point).
    hey malcolm. We're going to see the new Mary Queen of Scots film soon. How is she thought of up your way? and do you call her something different?
    Paul, I believe reasonably well thought of , hard done by her English cousin but that was par for the course in those days. I believe they have taken plenty of poetic licence with the real facts for this film, be interested to hear what you think of it.
    cheers. I'm not a stickler for facts in historical movies as long as they are getting the important stuff right. Loved Bohemian Rhapsody despite people telling where it was factually incorrect.
    It's a huge shame that the Freddie Mercury/Sacha Baron Cohen film was never made as it was supposed to be too much warts and all (literally, I imagine) - I'm sure that would have been a great, gritty, harsh but fair portrayal.

    Not seen this version, that said - not a fan at all of biopics. If I'm going to see or learn about someone who existed I'd rather see a documentary.

    And in that regard I've finally finished Burns' Vietnam. An amazing piece of work - is his WWII one as good, anyone?
    I'm only up to about 1967/68 there. I'm sure his WW2 one will be as good but there aren't so many gaps to fill in for me there. I could watch his ACW documentary over and over.
    They have been showing it recently again on TV. The Gettysburg Address segment still moves me.
  • Options
    Harris_TweedHarris_Tweed Posts: 1,300
    GIN1138 said:

    Kay Burley of Sky has been reporting all day from the Irish border and only a handful of vehicles have passed her

    It is so quiet why all the fuss

    Kay Burley on the Northern Irish border... What could go wrong? :D
    “I can see the Semtex in his eyes”
  • Options
    Sean_F said:

    malcolmg said:

    Michael Gove would be my choice of leader and if not Chancellor. His tour de force traducing Corbyn last week at the dispatch box last week was a masterclass and the labour mps knew it as you watched their horrified expressions

    And on another subject does any agree with me that Davos is an affront to decency and demonstrates all that is wrong with big business and obscene wealth

    Adam Boulton on Sky this morning said it costs a CEO $250,000 to attend

    G, Gove is almost as big a liar as May and is at least as useless to boot. An absolute whinging duffer of the first order. Almost anyone would be better than him ( non Tories as they are mainly duffers at this point).
    hey malcolm. We're going to see the new Mary Queen of Scots film soon. How is she thought of up your way? and do you call her something different?
    Saw Colette yesterday. Two other pensioners walked out.
    Were they disgusted by sex scenes?
    The film's director used to make gay porn (which was when he changed his first name from Paul to Wash)
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,141
    edited January 2019
    dixiedean said:

    So what is your moral sense about the correct age of consent? Many countries, including the USA have legal child marriage. Others are higher than ours of 16.

    I was shocked to learn of the legality of child brides in certain states of the USA. And it is very much brides, I gather. One does not find many 50 year old women walking a pubescent boy down the aisle.

    My opinion on age of consent? I would argue for ours. 16.

    But my general point of principle is that I don't see any compelling reason why the nation state has to be the highest level at which decisions on something like this should be made.

    If a properly constituted and democratic World Parliament, for example, passed a law that the age of consent should be 27, I would not have a problem with that. Course, if I was 26 I might be a bit miffed, but I would accept it.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,917
    edited January 2019
    a
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,818

    malcolmg said:

    Michael Gove would be my choice of leader and if not Chancellor. His tour de force traducing Corbyn last week at the dispatch box last week was a masterclass and the labour mps knew it as you watched their horrified expressions

    And on another subject does any agree with me that Davos is an affront to decency and demonstrates all that is wrong with big business and obscene wealth

    Adam Boulton on Sky this morning said it costs a CEO $250,000 to attend

    G, Gove is almost as big a liar as May and is at least as useless to boot. An absolute whinging duffer of the first order. Almost anyone would be better than him ( non Tories as they are mainly duffers at this point).
    Hi Malc - my family like Gove's work in his present role and to be honest I have no problem with him as Chancellor or even PM
    G, I personally cannot stand him, more faces than the town clock. However each to their own, I just cannot get over that he is such a back stabber and liar.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,919
    edited January 2019
    Streeter said:

    Its accuracy is entirely dependent on the assumption that the U.K. government would spend similar amounts on regeneration. As we all know, that would be wrong.

    So it doesn't matter that vast sums of our money are wasted as long as it is the EU doing the wasting? Interesting perspective.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,818

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Michael Gove would be my choice of leader and if not Chancellor. His tour de force traducing Corbyn last week at the dispatch box last week was a masterclass and the labour mps knew it as you watched their horrified expressions

    And on another subject does any agree with me that Davos is an affront to decency and demonstrates all that is wrong with big business and obscene wealth

    Adam Boulton on Sky this morning said it costs a CEO $250,000 to attend

    G, Gove is almost as big a liar as May and is at least as useless to boot. An absolute whinging duffer of the first order. Almost anyone would be better than him ( non Tories as they are mainly duffers at this point).
    hey malcolm. We're going to see the new Mary Queen of Scots film soon. How is she thought of up your way? and do you call her something different?
    Paul, I believe reasonably well thought of , hard done by her English cousin but that was par for the course in those days. I believe they have taken plenty of poetic licence with the real facts for this film, be interested to hear what you think of it.
    cheers. I'm not a stickler for facts in historical movies as long as they are getting the important stuff right. Loved Bohemian Rhapsody despite people telling where it was factually incorrect.
    They often need a bit of extra fiction to make them really watchable for most people. Hope you enjoy it.
    I ma off to see Warhorse at weekend , looking forward to it.
  • Options
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Michael Gove would be my choice of leader and if not Chancellor. His tour de force traducing Corbyn last week at the dispatch box last week was a masterclass and the labour mps knew it as you watched their horrified expressions

    And on another subject does any agree with me that Davos is an affront to decency and demonstrates all that is wrong with big business and obscene wealth

    Adam Boulton on Sky this morning said it costs a CEO $250,000 to attend

    G, Gove is almost as big a liar as May and is at least as useless to boot. An absolute whinging duffer of the first order. Almost anyone would be better than him ( non Tories as they are mainly duffers at this point).
    Hi Malc - my family like Gove's work in his present role and to be honest I have no problem with him as Chancellor or even PM
    G, I personally cannot stand him, more faces than the town clock. However each to their own, I just cannot get over that he is such a back stabber and liar.
    I would have thought you would like him Malcolm, as the most influential Scottish politician in the UK!
  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    kinabalu said:

    dixiedean said:

    So what is your moral sense about the correct age of consent? Many countries, including the USA have legal child marriage. Others are higher than ours of 16.

    I was shocked to learn of the legality of child brides in certain states of the USA. And it is very much brides, I gather. One does not find many 50 year old women walking a pubescent boy down the aisle.

    My opinion on age of consent? I would argue for ours. 16.

    But my general point of principle is that I don't see any compelling reason why the nation state has to be the highest level at which decisions on something like this should be made.

    If a properly constituted and democratic World Parliament, for example, passed a law that the age of consent should be 27, I would not have a problem with that. Course, if I was 26 I might be a bit miffed, but I would accept it.
    And if it said the age of consent should be 77?
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,818

    TOPPING said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Michael Gove would be my choice of leader and if not Chancellor. His tour de force traducing Corbyn last week at the dispatch box last week was a masterclass and the labour mps knew it as you watched their horrified expressions

    And on another subject does any agree with me that Davos is an affront to decency and demonstrates all that is wrong with big business and obscene wealth

    Adam Boulton on Sky this morning said it costs a CEO $250,000 to attend

    G, Gove is almost as big a liar as May and is at least as useless to boot. An absolute whinging duffer of the first order. Almost anyone would be better than him ( non Tories as they are mainly duffers at this point).
    hey malcolm. We're going to see the new Mary Queen of Scots film soon. How is she thought of up your way? and do you call her something different?
    Paul, I believe reasonably well thought of , hard done by her English cousin but that was par for the course in those days. I believe they have taken plenty of poetic licence with the real facts for this film, be interested to hear what you think of it.
    cheers. I'm not a stickler for facts in historical movies as long as they are getting the important stuff right. Loved Bohemian Rhapsody despite people telling where it was factually incorrect.
    It's a huge shame that the Freddie Mercury/Sacha Baron Cohen film was never made as it was supposed to be too much warts and all (literally, I imagine) - I'm sure that would have been a great, gritty, harsh but fair portrayal.

    Not seen this version, that said - not a fan at all of biopics. If I'm going to see or learn about someone who existed I'd rather see a documentary.

    And in that regard I've finally finished Burns' Vietnam. An amazing piece of work - is his WWII one as good, anyone?
    I'm only up to about 1967/68 there. I'm sure his WW2 one will be as good but there aren't so many gaps to fill in for me there. I could watch his ACW documentary over and over.
    I am rewatching Vietnam , excellent series as was the ACW. Must look up his WWII one.
  • Options
    Ishmael_Z said:

    kinabalu said:

    dixiedean said:

    So what is your moral sense about the correct age of consent? Many countries, including the USA have legal child marriage. Others are higher than ours of 16.

    I was shocked to learn of the legality of child brides in certain states of the USA. And it is very much brides, I gather. One does not find many 50 year old women walking a pubescent boy down the aisle.

    My opinion on age of consent? I would argue for ours. 16.

    But my general point of principle is that I don't see any compelling reason why the nation state has to be the highest level at which decisions on something like this should be made.

    If a properly constituted and democratic World Parliament, for example, passed a law that the age of consent should be 27, I would not have a problem with that. Course, if I was 26 I might be a bit miffed, but I would accept it.
    And if it said the age of consent should be 77?
    77 a bit low in my opinion.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,818

    malcolmg said:

    Michael Gove would be my choice of leader and if not Chancellor. His tour de force traducing Corbyn last week at the dispatch box last week was a masterclass and the labour mps knew it as you watched their horrified expressions

    And on another subject does any agree with me that Davos is an affront to decency and demonstrates all that is wrong with big business and obscene wealth

    Adam Boulton on Sky this morning said it costs a CEO $250,000 to attend

    G, Gove is almost as big a liar as May and is at least as useless to boot. An absolute whinging duffer of the first order. Almost anyone would be better than him ( non Tories as they are mainly duffers at this point).
    Hi Malc - my family like Gove's work in his present role and to be honest I have no problem with him as Chancellor or even PM
    Chancellor is as far as I would have him.....
    Not even toilet cleaner for me.
  • Options
    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    Sean_F said:



    I don't think there's a right or wrong answer on the age of consent. Most of would probably agree that it's wrong to have sex with pre-pubescent children, but there are entirely valid arguments to be had about whether the age should be 14, 15, 16, 17, or 18, and whether it makes a difference if the older party is in a position of authority. I can see no reason at all to set such a law at a worldwide level.

    Different countries will come to different conclusions on such a matter, along with such things as taxation, criminal justice, free speech, the age of majority etc. I can see no pressing reasons to take such decisions out of their hands.,

    It's such an emotive issue that there are problems in major differences in practice - one country may regard something as quite normal while another thinks it paedophilia and demands deportation of anyone involved. The age of consent in Japan is 13, as I understand it - are we OK with older Brits going to Japan to sleep with 13-year-olds? I think there's a case for international harmonisation if it can be achieved.
    Everyone is fine with harmonisation when it involves the rest of the world changing to agree with us, not so keen when it involves making changes to agree with others.

    Would you be happy to reduce the UK age of consent to 13 to harmonise with Japan (and allow older Brits to legally have sex with 13 year olds without leaving the country)?
  • Options
    Not my idea of a jolly party, but....

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1088109337141276674
  • Options
    paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 2,461

    TOPPING said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Michael Gove would be my choice of leader and if not Chancellor. His tour de force traducing Corbyn last week at the dispatch box last week was a masterclass and the labour mps knew it as you watched their horrified expressions

    And on another subject does any agree with me that Davos is an affront to decency and demonstrates all that is wrong with big business and obscene wealth

    Adam Boulton on Sky this morning said it costs a CEO $250,000 to attend

    G, Gove is almost as big a liar as May and is at least as useless to boot. An absolute whinging duffer of the first order. Almost anyone would be better than him ( non Tories as they are mainly duffers at this point).
    hey malcolm. We're going to see the new Mary Queen of Scots film soon. How is she thought of up your way? and do you call her something different?
    Paul, I believe reasonably well thought of , hard done by her English cousin but that was par for the course in those days. I believe they have taken plenty of poetic licence with the real facts for this film, be interested to hear what you think of it.
    cheers. I'm not a stickler for facts in historical movies as long as they are getting the important stuff right. Loved Bohemian Rhapsody despite people telling where it was factually incorrect.
    It's a huge shame that the Freddie Mercury/Sacha Baron Cohen film was never made as it was supposed to be too much warts and all (literally, I imagine) - I'm sure that would have been a great, gritty, harsh but fair portrayal.

    Not seen this version, that said - not a fan at all of biopics. If I'm going to see or learn about someone who existed I'd rather see a documentary.

    And in that regard I've finally finished Burns' Vietnam. An amazing piece of work - is his WWII one as good, anyone?
    I'm only up to about 1967/68 there. I'm sure his WW2 one will be as good but there aren't so many gaps to fill in for me there. I could watch his ACW documentary over and over.
    They have been showing it recently again on TV. The Gettysburg Address segment still moves me.
    I'd like to visit one of the battlefields but can't decide if I'd prefer Gettysburg or Antietam.
  • Options
    See what Corbyn is missing by turning down a meeting with May.
  • Options
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Michael Gove would be my choice of leader and if not Chancellor. His tour de force traducing Corbyn last week at the dispatch box last week was a masterclass and the labour mps knew it as you watched their horrified expressions

    And on another subject does any agree with me that Davos is an affront to decency and demonstrates all that is wrong with big business and obscene wealth

    Adam Boulton on Sky this morning said it costs a CEO $250,000 to attend

    G, Gove is almost as big a liar as May and is at least as useless to boot. An absolute whinging duffer of the first order. Almost anyone would be better than him ( non Tories as they are mainly duffers at this point).
    Hi Malc - my family like Gove's work in his present role and to be honest I have no problem with him as Chancellor or even PM
    Chancellor is as far as I would have him.....
    Not even toilet cleaner for me.
    Is it 'cause he is white?
  • Options

    What has the EU ever done for us?

    Well, off the top of my head...

    - they forced us to clean up our beaches
    - they forced us to stop treating junior doctors as a form of slave
    - easier study for students and researchers at foreign universities
    - better drug regulation
    - more controls on tobacco resale
    - cheaper flights & holidays
    - cheaper phone roaming
    - upset Richard Tyndall
    - enhanced security via inter-agency cooperation
    Well they didn't cause cheaper phone roaming for a start. Four of the Five main providers had already introduced cheap overseas roaming long before the EU got involved. Indeed they have also extended it to well beyond the EU - there are many countries around the world where you can use your phone just as if you were in the UK for both data and calls. The result of the phone companies not the EU.

    What the EU has done is devastated our most important marine reserves

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/dec/20/marine-life-worse-off-inside-protected-areas-analysis-reveals

    It has devastated our insect and wild flower populations

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/mar/23/eu-in-state-of-denial-over-destructive-impact-of-farming-on-wildlife

    It has prevented us introducing higher animal welfare standards such as banning live animal exports

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/how-eu-prevents-uk-banning-8000467

    lol! What did the EU ever do for us?!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvPbj9NX0zc
  • Options

    Ishmael_Z said:

    kinabalu said:

    dixiedean said:

    So what is your moral sense about the correct age of consent? Many countries, including the USA have legal child marriage. Others are higher than ours of 16.

    I was shocked to learn of the legality of child brides in certain states of the USA. And it is very much brides, I gather. One does not find many 50 year old women walking a pubescent boy down the aisle.

    My opinion on age of consent? I would argue for ours. 16.

    But my general point of principle is that I don't see any compelling reason why the nation state has to be the highest level at which decisions on something like this should be made.

    If a properly constituted and democratic World Parliament, for example, passed a law that the age of consent should be 27, I would not have a problem with that. Course, if I was 26 I might be a bit miffed, but I would accept it.
    And if it said the age of consent should be 77?
    77 a bit low in my opinion.
    Only JackW to qualify from PB?
  • Options
    paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 2,461
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Michael Gove would be my choice of leader and if not Chancellor. His tour de force traducing Corbyn last week at the dispatch box last week was a masterclass and the labour mps knew it as you watched their horrified expressions

    And on another subject does any agree with me that Davos is an affront to decency and demonstrates all that is wrong with big business and obscene wealth

    Adam Boulton on Sky this morning said it costs a CEO $250,000 to attend

    G, Gove is almost as big a liar as May and is at least as useless to boot. An absolute whinging duffer of the first order. Almost anyone would be better than him ( non Tories as they are mainly duffers at this point).
    hey malcolm. We're going to see the new Mary Queen of Scots film soon. How is she thought of up your way? and do you call her something different?
    Paul, I believe reasonably well thought of , hard done by her English cousin but that was par for the course in those days. I believe they have taken plenty of poetic licence with the real facts for this film, be interested to hear what you think of it.
    cheers. I'm not a stickler for facts in historical movies as long as they are getting the important stuff right. Loved Bohemian Rhapsody despite people telling where it was factually incorrect.
    They often need a bit of extra fiction to make them really watchable for most people. Hope you enjoy it.
    I ma off to see Warhorse at weekend , looking forward to it.
    the film or on stage? enjoy.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,793
    Sounds like the dinner party from hell...
  • Options
    sarissasarissa Posts: 1,767
    Barnier comment, from his interview in the Luxembourg Times:

    "We are ready to be more ambitious if the British decide to shift their red lines, for example by remaining in a customs union, or participating in the single market. I believe there is a readiness in London for that."

    I expected that to cause more of a furore than it has - maybe few have read it yet?
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,226

    This thread is now OLD

  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,930

    Ishmael_Z said:

    kinabalu said:

    dixiedean said:

    So what is your moral sense about the correct age of consent? Many countries, including the USA have legal child marriage. Others are higher than ours of 16.

    I was shocked to learn of the legality of child brides in certain states of the USA. And it is very much brides, I gather. One does not find many 50 year old women walking a pubescent boy down the aisle.

    My opinion on age of consent? I would argue for ours. 16.

    But my general point of principle is that I don't see any compelling reason why the nation state has to be the highest level at which decisions on something like this should be made.

    If a properly constituted and democratic World Parliament, for example, passed a law that the age of consent should be 27, I would not have a problem with that. Course, if I was 26 I might be a bit miffed, but I would accept it.
    And if it said the age of consent should be 77?
    77 a bit low in my opinion.
    Only JackW to qualify from PB?
    No, But there's a difference between theoretical and practical. Sadly.
  • Options

    Ishmael_Z said:

    kinabalu said:

    dixiedean said:

    So what is your moral sense about the correct age of consent? Many countries, including the USA have legal child marriage. Others are higher than ours of 16.

    I was shocked to learn of the legality of child brides in certain states of the USA. And it is very much brides, I gather. One does not find many 50 year old women walking a pubescent boy down the aisle.

    My opinion on age of consent? I would argue for ours. 16.

    But my general point of principle is that I don't see any compelling reason why the nation state has to be the highest level at which decisions on something like this should be made.

    If a properly constituted and democratic World Parliament, for example, passed a law that the age of consent should be 27, I would not have a problem with that. Course, if I was 26 I might be a bit miffed, but I would accept it.
    And if it said the age of consent should be 77?
    77 a bit low in my opinion.
    Only JackW to qualify from PB?

    Count the days into years his eighty two brings many fears
    Yesterday's laughter turned to tears
    his arms and legs don't feel so strong his heart is weak,
    there's something wrong
    Opens windows in despair tries to breathe in some fresh air
    his conscience cries: "Get on your feet.
    without you, Jack, the town can't eat".

    Grocer Jack, grocer Jack.
    get off your back.
    go into town.
    don't let them down. Oh no. no.

    Grocer jack. grocer Jack.
    get off your back. go into town,
    don't let them down, Oh no. no.

    The people that live in the town don't understand
    He's never been known to miss his round,
    "It's ten-o'clock", the housewives yell.
    "When Jack turns up we'll 'give him hell."
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    EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    kinabalu said:

    dixiedean said:

    So what is your moral sense about the correct age of consent? Many countries, including the USA have legal child marriage. Others are higher than ours of 16.

    If a properly constituted and democratic World Parliament, for example, passed a law that the age of consent should be 27, I would not have a problem with that. Course, if I was 26 I might be a bit miffed, but I would accept it.
    I can't believe this argument is even happening. Forget about the age of consent: what about if a "properly constituted and democratic World Parliament" passed a law legalising FGM? Or insisting on death by stoning for adultery?
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,818

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Michael Gove would be my choice of leader and if not Chancellor. His tour de force traducing Corbyn last week at the dispatch box last week was a masterclass and the labour mps knew it as you watched their horrified expressions

    And on another subject does any agree with me that Davos is an affront to decency and demonstrates all that is wrong with big business and obscene wealth

    Adam Boulton on Sky this morning said it costs a CEO $250,000 to attend

    G, Gove is almost as big a liar as May and is at least as useless to boot. An absolute whinging duffer of the first order. Almost anyone would be better than him ( non Tories as they are mainly duffers at this point).
    hey malcolm. We're going to see the new Mary Queen of Scots film soon. How is she thought of up your way? and do you call her something different?
    Paul, I believe reasonably well thought of , hard done by her English cousin but that was par for the course in those days. I believe they have taken plenty of poetic licence with the real facts for this film, be interested to hear what you think of it.
    cheers. I'm not a stickler for facts in historical movies as long as they are getting the important stuff right. Loved Bohemian Rhapsody despite people telling where it was factually incorrect.
    They often need a bit of extra fiction to make them really watchable for most people. Hope you enjoy it.
    I ma off to see Warhorse at weekend , looking forward to it.
    the film or on stage? enjoy.
    Stage
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,141
    Sean_F said:

    I don't think there's a right or wrong answer on the age of consent. Most of would probably agree that it's wrong to have sex with pre-pubescent children, but there are entirely valid arguments to be had about whether the age should be 14, 15, 16, 17, or 18, and whether it makes a difference if the older party is in a position of authority. I can see no reason at all to set such a law at a worldwide level.

    Different countries will come to different conclusions on such a matter, along with such things as taxation, criminal justice, free speech, the age of majority etc. I can see no pressing reasons to take such decisions out of their hands.

    Well this is one of those studenty out of the box type conversations we're having, remember, it's about theory and principle, so no I am not actually suggesting these things as being priorities right now. World Parliament? Sure, but let's get a Brexit deal first. Then we'll see.

    My point - which I am struggling to get across due to using too many words and disappearing up my own backside - is that there is nothing magical about the nation state. When I think about 'we' it means many things, starting with the royal we, I, then just as meaningfully, friends, family, my 'hood, my city, my hometown, my netball team, my country, my fellow progressives, my fellow westerners, my fellow men, and women even.

    Therefore, the strong attachment to a nation state, the view that it is especially wholesome and democratic for decisions to be taken at that level and no higher, is something that I do not share and do not see the logic behind.
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    sarissasarissa Posts: 1,767

    Sean_F said:

    malcolmg said:

    Michael Gove would be my choice of leader and if not Chancellor. His tour de force traducing Corbyn last week at the dispatch box last week was a masterclass and the labour mps knew it as you watched their horrified expressions

    And on another subject does any agree with me that Davos is an affront to decency and demonstrates all that is wrong with big business and obscene wealth

    Adam Boulton on Sky this morning said it costs a CEO $250,000 to attend

    G, Gove is almost as big a liar as May and is at least as useless to boot. An absolute whinging duffer of the first order. Almost anyone would be better than him ( non Tories as they are mainly duffers at this point).
    hey malcolm. We're going to see the new Mary Queen of Scots film soon. How is she thought of up your way? and do you call her something different?
    Saw Colette yesterday. Two other pensioners walked out.
    Were they disgusted by sex scenes?
    Or lack thereof?
    Have you seen the film, Mr N?
    No, I haven't. Went to Stan & Ollie last weekend instead, which was pleasant enough and very well done, but lightweight.
    Leaving aside the steamy bits, which were, in fairness, appropriate to the plot and not (just) there for titillation, it was a very good description of the unreasonable domination of a woman by her husband, and how she first broke free then succeeded as a writer.
    Can't comment on the historical accuracy ........ which I gather is a problem with Mary, Queen of Scots.
    For this Scot, the jarring use misplaced geography and scene settings were more off-putting, not to mention the unusual casting of Adrian Lester as Ambassador Thomas Randolph and Gemma Chan as Bess of Hardwick.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,141
    Ishmael_Z said:

    And if it said the age of consent should be 77?

    :-)

    Big problem!

    But so long as the change was not retrospective, I guess I could live with it.
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think there's a right or wrong answer on the age of consent. Most of would probably agree that it's wrong to have sex with pre-pubescent children, but there are entirely valid arguments to be had about whether the age should be 14, 15, 16, 17, or 18, and whether it makes a difference if the older party is in a position of authority. I can see no reason at all to set such a law at a worldwide level.

    Different countries will come to different conclusions on such a matter, along with such things as taxation, criminal justice, free speech, the age of majority etc. I can see no pressing reasons to take such decisions out of their hands.

    Well this is one of those studenty out of the box type conversations we're having, remember, it's about theory and principle, so no I am not actually suggesting these things as being priorities right now. World Parliament? Sure, but let's get a Brexit deal first. Then we'll see.

    My point - which I am struggling to get across due to using too many words and disappearing up my own backside - is that there is nothing magical about the nation state. When I think about 'we' it means many things, starting with the royal we, I, then just as meaningfully, friends, family, my 'hood, my city, my hometown, my netball team, my country, my fellow progressives, my fellow westerners, my fellow men, and women even.

    Therefore, the strong attachment to a nation state, the view that it is especially wholesome and democratic for decisions to be taken at that level and no higher, is something that I do not share and do not see the logic behind.
    True, but there is also nothing magical about democratic decisions. It isn't a thought experiment but a real possibility that your world democracy would vote to abolish Israel or criminalise homosexuality or make the death penalty mandatory. You OK with any of that, just because it's democratic?
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    Looks like JRM is not bluffing over proroguing Parliament threatening to compromise the government majority

    He is losing it and at the same time Brexit

    I wonder whether his comments re-Prorogation will adversely affect his future prospects of becoming Speaker.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,141
    Endillion said:

    I can't believe this argument is even happening. Forget about the age of consent: what about if a "properly constituted and democratic World Parliament" passed a law legalising FGM? Or insisting on death by stoning for adultery?

    A valid concern but I would turn that around.

    If the WP outlawed such practices - as surely it would - the nation states which currently engage in them would no longer be able to.

    It is the LACK of a WP that allows this stuff to go on.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,141
    edited January 2019
    Ishmael_Z said:

    True, but there is also nothing magical about democratic decisions. It isn't a thought experiment but a real possibility that your world democracy would vote to abolish Israel or criminalise homosexuality or make the death penalty mandatory. You OK with any of that, just because it's democratic?

    I am most certainly not. And it is a good point of course.

    A World Parliament would have to be underpinned by a universal and binding recognition of human rights.

    And if I'm honest, a bill of rights drafted anywhere but North London, and preferably Hampstead, would probably struggle to get my buy-in.

    Ah well. One can dream.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,226
    Last!
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