Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Kamala Harris makes strong start to her WH2020 campaign and is

SystemSystem Posts: 11,683
edited January 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Kamala Harris makes strong start to her WH2020 campaign and is already attracting endorsements

Even though we are a year off the first WH2020 primaries the former Attorney General for California and now Senator, Kamala Harris, is now top slot in the betting and in pole position for the Democratic party nomination.

Read the full story here


«1345

Comments

  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Premier
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,150
    edited January 2019
    Reposting this morning's oppo FPT. Great call by Mike getting on at such good odds but I wonder if the Dems wouldn't be better picking someone who sounds less like they want to kill all the puppies.

    https://www.twitter.com/WillisJermane/status/1089983025713213440
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Six weeks to Cheltenham! Sixty days to Armageddon or the new Jerusalem (delete as appropriate).
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897

    Reposting this morning's oppo FPT. Great call by Mike getting on at such good odds but I wonder if the Dems wouldn't be better picking someone who sounds less like they want to kill all the puppies.

    https://www.twitter.com/WillisJermane/status/1089983025713213440

    She does sound more like a black Hillary than a female Obama.
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Reposting this morning's oppo FPT. Great call by Mike getting on at such good odds but I wonder if the Dems wouldn't be better picking someone who sounds less like they want to kill all the puppies.

    https://www.twitter.com/WillisJermane/status/1089983025713213440

    If you jail people for truancy, that will strengthen the correlation between truancy and jail. Case proven, m'lud.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,067

    Reposting this morning's oppo FPT. Great call by Mike getting on at such good odds but I wonder if the Dems wouldn't be better picking someone who sounds less like they want to kill all the puppies.

    Where does KLOBUCHAR stand on puppies?
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Reposting this morning's oppo FPT. Great call by Mike getting on at such good odds but I wonder if the Dems wouldn't be better picking someone who sounds less like they want to kill all the puppies.

    Where does KLOBUCHAR stand on puppies?
    The sidewalk would be better.

    It would make a mess if you did it in the house
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    FPT

    For the love of god.

    The argument for political union is dead. The reason why remainiacs have been banging on about economics all this time is because the vast majority of the British public has zero interest in "More Europe". Even most Remain voters don't want more power to Brussels. It is simply going in a direction we don't want to go and the antagonism is only going to grow the longer we stay.

    The refrain of "if only we got more involved" is perhaps the most delusional thing to come from the referendum. Okay perhaps not most, but up there. It's not happening, in any of our lifetimes at least.

    More to the point what on earth makes you think an institution built on post-war ideology, one that is terribly, terribly flawed, is the right vehicle to lead us into the 21st century? The EU is an institution rooted in the past, even older than 1966! The EU is not interested in fresh thinking, the only thing it knows is "More Europe" and our decades of membership had **** all effect on that. All it produced was a political class ever more subservient to the federalist desires of the Franco-German partnership, which poisoned our politics.

    And yet in all the years we have been members I have never found the EU to be anything other than convenient and useful. Common regulations have saved me a ton of paperwork. It's nice being able to cross borders without a passport - can't think why we insist on not joining in with that. I can buy and sell freely. My daughter was able to settle in Berlin without any hassle. And the Euro has stabilised currency values - which is a real benefit.

    Not sure what your issue with it is.
    Common regulations are very useful, so long as they make sense and aren't pointless red tape or claptrap not rooted in scientific evidence (for which the EU has form.) The free traversal of borders under Schengen is very useful for EU citizens; unfortunately it's also very useful for illegal migrants. Point conceded on the single market, though not on the protectionist common external tariff - and we can't have one without the other. We can go and live and work freely elsewhere in Europe, but unfortunately people come in the opposite direction at several times the rate and the country (which is not very large and suffers from a steadily worsening housing supply problem) hasn't coped well with this. The Euro is a disaster, for the debtor states at the very least.

    One can make valid arguments for both staying put and leaving, but simply extolling the manifest perfection of the EU won't wash.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    Really don't like the sound of Harris. She's got a more than somewhat dodgy record as a state legal person and the last comments on truancy don't sound to be thought through at all.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Please no, she is terrible. I have a hundred pound bet with a friend on the Democrats that I'd rather not lose.
  • Options

    FPT

    For the love of god.

    The argument for political union is dead. The reason why remainiacs have been banging on about economics all this time is because the vast majority of the British public has zero interest in "More Europe". Even most Remain voters don't want more power to Brussels. It is simply going in a direction we don't want to go and the antagonism is only going to grow the longer we stay.

    The refrain of "if only we got more involved" is perhaps the most delusional thing to come from the referendum. Okay perhaps not most, but up there. It's not happening, in any of our lifetimes at least.

    More to the point what on earth makes youur politics.

    And yet in all the years we have been members which is a real benefit.

    Not sure what your issue with it is.
    Common regulations are very useful, so long as they make sense and aren't pointless red tape or claptrap not rooted in scientific evidence (for which the EU has form.) The free traversal of borders under Schengen is very useful for EU citizens; unfortunately it's also very useful for illegal migrants. Point conceded on the single market, though not on the protectionist common external tariff - and we can't have one without the other. We can go and live and work freely elsewhere in Europe, but unfortunately people come in the opposite direction at several times the rate and the country (which is not very large and suffers from a steadily worsening housing supply problem) hasn't coped well with this. The Euro is a disaster, for the debtor states at the very least.

    One can make valid arguments for both staying put and leaving, but simply extolling the manifest perfection of the EU won't wash.

    It’s far from a perfect organisation. The issue for me has always been what do we gain in practical terms by leaving and does this justify the damage that leaving will do? I still can’t see how the positives outweigh the negatives, although on a personal level my circumstances mean it will make no difference to me.

  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    Charles said:

    Reposting this morning's oppo FPT. Great call by Mike getting on at such good odds but I wonder if the Dems wouldn't be better picking someone who sounds less like they want to kill all the puppies.

    Where does KLOBUCHAR stand on puppies?
    The sidewalk would be better.

    It would make a mess if you did it in the house
    Are you going on holiday? You sound demob happy.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Reposting this morning's oppo FPT. Great call by Mike getting on at such good odds but I wonder if the Dems wouldn't be better picking someone who sounds less like they want to kill all the puppies.

    Where does KLOBUCHAR stand on puppies?
    The sidewalk would be better.

    It would make a mess if you did it in the house
    Are you going on holiday? You sound demob happy.
    In City airport - delayed flight.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Reposting this morning's oppo FPT. Great call by Mike getting on at such good odds but I wonder if the Dems wouldn't be better picking someone who sounds less like they want to kill all the puppies.

    Where does KLOBUCHAR stand on puppies?
    The sidewalk would be better.

    It would make a mess if you did it in the house
    Are you going on holiday? You sound demob happy.
    In City airport - delayed flight.
    Work then! Surely no weather problems.
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited January 2019

    Really don't like the sound of Harris. She's got a more than somewhat dodgy record as a state legal person and the last comments on truancy don't sound to be thought through at all.

    What do you know about it? If Donald Trump supports Kamala, that's good enough for ... oh, hold on.

    https://twitter.com/jezawatson/status/1089231113866932226

    Have you ever seen OGH and Ivanka in the same room together?
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990

    FPT

    For the love of god.

    The argument for political union is dead. The reason why remainiacs have been banging on about economics all this time is because the vast majority of the British public has zero interest in "More Europe". Even most Remain voters don't want more power to Brussels. It is simply going in a direction we don't want to go and the antagonism is only going to grow the longer we stay.

    The refrain of "if only we got more involved" is perhaps the most delusional thing to come from the referendum. Okay perhaps not most, but up there. It's not happening, in any of our lifetimes at least.

    More to the point what on earth makes youur politics.

    And yet in all the years we have been members which is a real benefit.

    Not sure what your issue with it is.
    Common regulations are very useful, so long as they make sense and aren't pointless red tape or claptrap not rooted in scientific evidence (for which the EU has form.) The free traversal of borders under Schengen is very useful for EU citizens; unfortunately it's also very useful for illegal migrants. Point conceded on the single market, though not on the protectionist common external tariff - and we can't have one without the other. We can go and live and work freely elsewhere in Europe, but unfortunately people come in the opposite direction at several times the rate and the country (which is not very large and suffers from a steadily worsening housing supply problem) hasn't coped well with this. The Euro is a disaster, for the debtor states at the very least.

    One can make valid arguments for both staying put and leaving, but simply extolling the manifest perfection of the EU won't wash.

    It’s far from a perfect organisation. The issue for me has always been what do we gain in practical terms by leaving and does this justify the damage that leaving will do? I still can’t see how the positives outweigh the negatives, although on a personal level my circumstances mean it will make no difference to me.

    Seconded, although, as far as that last clause is concerned, I'm one of those who might have a problem if there are medicine shortages.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850

    FPT

    For the love of god.

    The argument for political union is dead. The reason why remainiacs have been banging on about economics all this time is because the vast majority of the British public has zero interest in "More Europe". Even most Remain voters don't want more power to Brussels. It is simply going in a direction we don't want to go and the antagonism is only going to grow the longer we stay.

    The refrain of "if only we got more involved" is perhaps the most delusional thing to come from the referendum. Okay perhaps not most, but up there. It's not happening, in any of our lifetimes at least.

    More to the point what on earth makes you think an institution built on post-war ideology, one that is terribly, terribly flawed, is the right vehicle to lead us into the 21st century? The EU is an institution rooted in the past, even older than 1966! The EU is not interested in fresh thinking, the only thing it knows is "More Europe" and our decades of membership had **** all effect on that. All it produced was a political class ever more subservient to the federalist desires of the Franco-German partnership, which poisoned our politics.

    And yet in all the years we have been members I have never found the EU to be anything other than convenient and useful. Common regulations have saved me a ton of paperwork. It's nice being able to cross borders without a passport - can't think why we insist on not joining in with that. I can buy and sell freely. My daughter was able to settle in Berlin without any hassle. And the Euro has stabilised currency values - which is a real benefit.

    Not sure what your issue with it is.
    Common regulations are very useful, so long as they make sense and aren't pointless red tape or claptrap not rooted in scientific evidence (for which the EU has form.) The free traversal of borders under Schengen is very useful for EU citizens; unfortunately it's also very useful for illegal migrants. Point conceded on the single market, though not on the protectionist common external tariff - and we can't have one without the other. We can go and live and work freely elsewhere in Europe, but unfortunately people come in the opposite direction at several times the rate and the country (which is not very large and suffers from a steadily worsening housing supply problem) hasn't coped well with this. The Euro is a disaster, for the debtor states at the very least.

    One can make valid arguments for both staying put and leaving, but simply extolling the manifest perfection of the EU won't wash.
    Even the Economist, this week, described the Euro as "a disaster" which is like the Pope becoming an atheist.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990

    Really don't like the sound of Harris. She's got a more than somewhat dodgy record as a state legal person and the last comments on truancy don't sound to be thought through at all.

    What do you know about it? If Donald Trump supports Kamala, that's good enough for ... oh, hold on.

    https://twitter.com/jezawatson/status/1089231113866932226

    Have you ever seen OGH and Ivanka in the same room together?
    I rest my case!
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Reposting this morning's oppo FPT. Great call by Mike getting on at such good odds but I wonder if the Dems wouldn't be better picking someone who sounds less like they want to kill all the puppies.

    Where does KLOBUCHAR stand on puppies?
    The sidewalk would be better.

    It would make a mess if you did it in the house
    Are you going on holiday? You sound demob happy.
    In City airport - delayed flight.
    Work then! Surely no weather problems.
    Assume snow in Zurich is why i’ve been delayed.
  • Options
    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    I thought the BBC2 doc last night on the EU less than interesting and told us nothing new. The EU is inward-looking, has on an overall goal of more integration and has a horror of consulting the people.

    "Call a referendum, you must be mad." There was a feeling that Cammo brought it on himself by consulting the people.

    Politicians are public servants? Not in Europe, they're not. Public opinion is something to ignore.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    So is today going to be the day that Parliament redeems itself, or are we going to hear endless discussions about what people don’t want followed by a failure to agree on anything?
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Sandpit said:

    So is today going to be the day that Parliament redeems itself, or are we going to hear endless discussions about what people don’t want followed by a failure to agree on anything?

    Depends if Labour supports Cooper-Boles.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Sandpit said:

    So is today going to be the day that Parliament redeems itself, or are we going to hear endless discussions about what people don’t want followed by a failure to agree on anything?

    What odds will you offer me on the latter?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,613
    I think it wrong to assume Biden is not running.
    Harris has made a good start, but she’s adopted a whole set of policies, which could either be a smart move to tie up the progressive wing of the party, or prove an early hostage to fortune and open a gao for a centrist ‘uniter’ (despite her current efforts to present herself as such).

    Biden is certainly still teasing a run:
    https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/28/joe-biden-2020-1133200
  • Options
    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    FPT

    For the love of god.

    The argument for political union is dead. The reason why remainiacs have been banging on about economics all this time is because the vast majority of the British public has zero interest in "More Europe". Even most Remain voters don't want more power to Brussels. It is simply going in a direction we don't want to go and the antagonism is only going to grow the longer we stay.

    The refrain of "if only we got more involved" is perhaps the most delusional thing to come from the referendum. Okay perhaps not most, but up there. It's not happening, in any of our lifetimes at least.

    More to the point what on earth makes you think an institution built on post-war ideology, one that is terribly, terribly flawed, is the right vehicle to lead us into the 21st century? The EU is an institution rooted in the past, even older than 1966! The EU is not interested in fresh thinking, the only thing it knows is "More Europe" and our decades of membership had **** all effect on that. All it produced was a political class ever more subservient to the federalist desires of the Franco-German partnership, which poisoned our politics.

    And yet in all the years we have been members I have never found the EU to be anything other than convenient and useful. Common regulations have saved me a ton of paperwork. It's nice being able to cross borders without a passport - can't think why we insist on not joining in with that. I can buy and sell freely. My daughter was able to settle in Berlin without any hassle. And the Euro has stabilised currency values - which is a real benefit.

    Not sure what your issue with it is.
    Common regulations are very useful, so long as they make sense and aren't pointless red tape or claptrap not rooted in scientific evidence (for which the EU has form.) The free traversal of borders under Schengen is very useful for EU citizens; unfortunately it's also very useful for illegal migrants. Point conceded on the single market, though not on the protectionist common external tariff - and we can't have one without the other. We can go and live and work freely elsewhere in Europe, but unfortunately people come in the opposite direction at several times the rate and the country (which is not very large and suffers from a steadily worsening housing supply problem) hasn't coped well with this. The Euro is a disaster, for the debtor states at the very least.

    One can make valid arguments for both staying put and leaving, but simply extolling the manifest perfection of the EU won't wash.
    I was responding to a post denigrating the EU with what I feel are its good points. Of course in the real world everything of any scale comes with costs and benefits.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    FPT

    For the love of god.



    The refrain of "if only we got more involved" is perhaps the most delusional thing to come from the referendum. Okay perhaps not most, but up there. It's not happening, in any of our lifetimes at least.

    More to the point what on earth makes you think an institution built on post-war ideology, one that is terribly, terribly flawed, is the right vehicle to lead us into the 21st century? The EU is an institution rooted in the past, even older than 1966! The EU is not interested in fresh thinking, the only thing it knows is "More Europe" and our decades of membership had **** all effect on that. All it produced was a political class ever more subservient to the federalist desires of the Franco-German partnership, which poisoned our politics.

    And yet in all the years we have been members I have never found the EU to be anything other than convenient and useful. Common regulations have saved me a ton of paperwork. It's nice being able to cross borders without a passport - can't think why we insist on not joining in with that. I can buy and sell freely. My daughter was able to settle in Berlin without any hassle. And the Euro has stabilised currency values - which is a real benefit.

    Not sure what your issue with it is.
    Common regulations are very useful, so long as they make sense and aren't pointless red tape or claptrap not rooted in scientific evidence (for which the EU has form.) The free traversal of borders under Schengen is very useful for EU citizens; unfortunately it's also very useful for illegal migrants. Point conceded on the single market, though not on the protectionist common external tariff - and we can't have one without the other. We can go and live and work freely elsewhere in Europe, but unfortunately people come in the opposite direction at several times the rate and the country (which is not very large and suffers from a steadily worsening housing supply problem) hasn't coped well with this. The Euro is a disaster, for the debtor states at the very least.

    One can make valid arguments for both staying put and leaving, but simply extolling the manifest perfection of the EU won't wash.
    I was responding to a post denigrating the EU with what I feel are its good points. Of course in the real world everything of any scale comes with costs and benefits.
    It’s also that the EU isn’t static

    I could have lived with the existing settlement or Cameron’s deal but I didn’t trust the EU not to continue to push for aggregation of power to Brussels. It’s the nature of politicians to want more power for themselves.

    We’ve seen this with noises on QMV on tax policy and an EU army.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,613

    Really don't like the sound of Harris. She's got a more than somewhat dodgy record as a state legal person and the last comments on truancy don't sound to be thought through at all.

    What do you know about it? If Donald Trump supports Kamala, that's good enough for ... oh, hold on.

    https://twitter.com/jezawatson/status/1089231113866932226

    Have you ever seen OGH and Ivanka in the same room together?
    Trump has made small donations to innumerable politicians, many of them Democrats. It’s more of a mark of her being known nationally.
    https://ballotpedia.org/History_of_Donald_Trump's_political_donations
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    Sandpit said:

    So is today going to be the day that Parliament redeems itself, or are we going to hear endless discussions about what people don’t want followed by a failure to agree on anything?

    I think we know the answer to that.

    The ERG will say No.
    Sarah Wollaston will demand a second referendum.
    Corbyn will demand a magical Brexit.
    The government will be defeated on a procedural amendment, which kicks the can down the road.
  • Options
    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    Project Fear was always predicated on the potential economic harm of losing trade because of tariffs. Most people like the freedom of movement of goods. It's the political linking of the other three 'freedoms' that is the problem, and always has been. That's why we seldom heard much about that. We are doing now.

    The four freedoms must be inextricably linked according to the EU, but that is a political decision. That is the issue we ought to be concentrating on.
  • Options
    Is Mrs May now telling Tory MPs to oppose the deal she agreed with the EU?
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    CD13 said:

    Project Fear was always predicated on the potential economic harm of losing trade because of tariffs. Most people like the freedom of movement of goods. It's the political linking of the other three 'freedoms' that is the problem, and always has been. That's why we seldom heard much about that. We are doing now.

    The four freedoms must be inextricably linked according to the EU, but that is a political decision. That is the issue we ought to be concentrating on.

    No point - they won’t budge on it.

    But that’s at the root of many of the problems
  • Options
    dotsdots Posts: 615
    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    So is today going to be the day that Parliament redeems itself, or are we going to hear endless discussions about what people don’t want followed by a failure to agree on anything?

    I think we know the answer to that.

    The ERG will say No.
    Sarah Wollaston will demand a second referendum.
    Corbyn will demand a magical Brexit.
    The government will be defeated on a procedural amendment, which kicks the can down the road.
    The tribal set up of the mother of all parliament on display yet again, where the creative way out of a crisis is a prime ministers or no ones.

    Just have to give backing to May’s B or C and see what it actually is. It’s such a tease. like Burlesque.

    Bwaaa na naaaaa, bwaaa na naaaaa…
    Bwaaa na naaaaa, BWAA NA NAAAAA Na

    Bomp ch ch, bomp ch ch, bomp ch ch, bomp ch ch
  • Options
    CD13 said:

    Project Fear was always predicated on the potential economic harm of losing trade because of tariffs. Most people like the freedom of movement of goods. It's the political linking of the other three 'freedoms' that is the problem, and always has been. That's why we seldom heard much about that. We are doing now.

    The four freedoms must be inextricably linked according to the EU, but that is a political decision. That is the issue we ought to be concentrating on.

    It was also a political decision to reject the four freedoms knowing they are inextricably linked. Mrs May made that choice, will not change her mind and so we are where we are.

  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,613
    This is a very interesting poll:
    https://www.shethepeople.org/poll

    Takeaway - don’t put any money on Sanders.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Good morning, everyone.

    If Harris is a black Hillary, she'll still win provided she manages to avoid insulting half the electorate and throwing resources at states she's guaranteed to win whilst denying them to contested states.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    So is today going to be the day that Parliament redeems itself, or are we going to hear endless discussions about what people don’t want followed by a failure to agree on anything?

    What odds will you offer me on the latter?
    Ooh, 1/10 maybe, for stakes of similar size to what Mr Meeks can get on at Sporting Index?

    I liked the suggestion make by someone on here the other day, that we should have a general election with the 650 incumbents all barred from standing. Time for a peaceful revolution.
  • Options
    PB regulars will remember a very fine article on here from just before the referendum which discussed the negative impact leaving the EU might have on tech start-ups. Well, it’s beginning to happen (though, obviously, I realise people who run tech start-ups no nothing about how to run tech start-ups).

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/29/the-brexit-threat-hanging-over-startups-in-the-uk-tech-sector
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Nigelb said:

    This is a very interesting poll:
    https://www.shethepeople.org/poll

    Takeaway - don’t put any money on Sanders.

    Whilst you might be right, it is a poll of black.women
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    Nigelb said:

    I think it wrong to assume Biden is not running.
    Harris has made a good start, but she’s adopted a whole set of policies, which could either be a smart move to tie up the progressive wing of the party, or prove an early hostage to fortune and open a gao for a centrist ‘uniter’ (despite her current efforts to present herself as such).

    Biden is certainly still teasing a run:
    https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/28/joe-biden-2020-1133200

    I still think he’s too old at 76, wil be 78 on Inauguration Day if elected.

    But if he stands he probably wins the nomination. A genuine elder statesman whom Trump would struggle to deal with as an opponent.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    edited January 2019
    The California primary being earlier this year will boost Harris in the nomination race but both Iowa and New Hampshire still set the tone of presidential campaigns and both are won by retail politics not just big spending and emdorsements and professional advisers. Even if Harris may now be favourite it is Biden who still tends to lead the polls, both in terms of the nomination and general election performance against Trump.

    In some respects Trump would love to face Harris, a liberal elitist from California, a state where Hillary won a landslide anyway, when what the Democrats should be doing is looking for a candidate who can win the key rustbelt swing states of Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania they have to win to win the Electoral College. Someone like Klobuchar or Brown have already proved they can win in the Midwest, Harris has a lot of work to do to show she would be a better choice to take on Trump if the Democrats are actually serious about trying to win
  • Options

    PB regulars will remember a very fine article on here from just before the referendum which discussed the negative impact leaving the EU might have on tech start-ups. Well, it’s beginning to happen (though, obviously, I realise people who run tech start-ups no nothing about how to run tech start-ups).

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/29/the-brexit-threat-hanging-over-startups-in-the-uk-tech-sector

    Here’s the original PB piece. It’s uncannily prescient:

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/06/13/guest-slot-the-impact-of-leaving-the-eu-on-londons-technology-start-up-scene/

  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    edited January 2019

    Good morning, everyone.

    If Harris is a black Hillary, she'll still win provided she manages to avoid insulting half the electorate and throwing resources at states she's guaranteed to win whilst denying them to contested states.

    If Harris is a black Hillary she will be Trump's dream opponent and he will win re election and the Electoral College again
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    edited January 2019
    Nigelb said:

    This is a very interesting poll:
    https://www.shethepeople.org/poll

    Takeaway - don’t put any money on Sanders.

    What? Since when was a poll exclusively of 'influential black women in politics' suggestive of anything about Sanders base who are millennial college students, hippies and blue collar workers? Of course they will all be for Harris
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    So is today going to be the day that Parliament redeems itself, or are we going to hear endless discussions about what people don’t want followed by a failure to agree on anything?

    I think we know the answer to that.

    The ERG will say No.
    Sarah Wollaston will demand a second referendum.
    Corbyn will demand a magical Brexit.
    The government will be defeated on a procedural amendment, which kicks the can down the road.
    That sounds about right.

    Dr Wollaston completely lost it yesterday, saying that the WA could never be amended, despite it being massively voted down last week - including by herself - and therefore dead in its current form.

    Some of the ERG types also lost it, it seems there’s a few diehards who will only agree to no deal.

    Corbyn I still can’t work out. At some point he’s either going to have to come off the fence, or be held responsible in the eyes of his supporters for perpetuating no deal.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990

    Is Mrs May now telling Tory MPs to oppose the deal she agreed with the EU?

    She hasn't been walking in Wales again, has she?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    edited January 2019
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I think it wrong to assume Biden is not running.
    Harris has made a good start, but she’s adopted a whole set of policies, which could either be a smart move to tie up the progressive wing of the party, or prove an early hostage to fortune and open a gao for a centrist ‘uniter’ (despite her current efforts to present herself as such).

    Biden is certainly still teasing a run:
    https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/28/joe-biden-2020-1133200

    I still think he’s too old at 76, wil be 78 on Inauguration Day if elected.

    But if he stands he probably wins the nomination. A genuine elder statesman whom Trump would struggle to deal with as an opponent.
    Trump would secretly fear Biden far more than Harris I suspect, I can already see him calling her 'Beyonce without the talent'
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Prediction, Copper-Boles to pass and sterling to head north of $1.33
  • Options
    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    edited January 2019
    Mr Observer,

    "knowing they are inextricably linked."

    They are inextricably linked only because the aim is a unified European state. That is the truth that dare not speak its name. You can't have boundaries within a single country

    The UK is a magnet for some Eastern European countries. The newcomers work hard and they'll work long hours - Of course, the farmers like them. Pretending they don't undercut wages is a silly game.

    And the government is always caught by surprise … "Oh, don't worry, not many will come." Keith Vaz is still at Heathrow waiting for the second Albanian to arrive.

    Are you surprised the electorate get cynical?


  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    CD13 said:

    The four freedoms must be inextricably linked according to the EU, but that is a political decision. That is the issue we ought to be concentrating on.

    Just as Brexiteers whine that Remoaners should "embrace the opportunities of Brexit", so Brexiteers should realise the four freedoms are a key benefit of the EU, not an "issue"

    I understand that Leave voters were unhappy about immigration, and unscrupulous charlatans campaigned on the basis that leaving the EU would fix it, but running out of food and medicine will not help those voters (or solve the immigration concerns)
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007

    Reposting this morning's oppo FPT. Great call by Mike getting on at such good odds but I wonder if the Dems wouldn't be better picking someone who sounds less like they want to kill all the puppies.

    https://www.twitter.com/WillisJermane/status/1089983025713213440

    Yes that is really what Democrats need to win back blue collar voters in the Midwest, the Trump campaign will already be loading those Harris comments ready for attack ads in Ohio and Michigan as we speak.

    If the Democrats are not careful Harris could be Kerry 2 not even Hillary 2!
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,613
    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is a very interesting poll:
    https://www.shethepeople.org/poll

    Takeaway - don’t put any money on Sanders.

    Whilst you might be right, it is a poll of black.women
    I had actually noticed.
    They are a key demographic in the party - not simply as a voting block, but in terms of engagement and influence. A candidate who actively turns them off - Sanders - isn't going to get nominated.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    edited January 2019
    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is a very interesting poll:
    https://www.shethepeople.org/poll

    Takeaway - don’t put any money on Sanders.

    Whilst you might be right, it is a poll of black.women
    I had actually noticed.
    They are a key demographic in the party - not simply as a voting block, but in terms of engagement and influence. A candidate who actively turns them off - Sanders - isn't going to get nominated.
    That depends, I expect Sanders does better with black men and poor black women even if he turns off the black female elite.

    Plus Sanders did far better in the North East and Midwest and West in 2016 where he won 22 of his 23 states than the South where the black vote is strongest and most influential in Democratic primaries and he only won just 1 state, Oklahoma. Hillary swept the South, including a landslide in South Carolina
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,613

    Reposting this morning's oppo FPT. Great call by Mike getting on at such good odds but I wonder if the Dems wouldn't be better picking someone who sounds less like they want to kill all the puppies.

    https://www.twitter.com/WillisJermane/status/1089983025713213440

    Only in the US...
    https://www.gov.uk/school-attendance-absence/legal-action-to-enforce-school-attendance
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I think it wrong to assume Biden is not running.
    Harris has made a good start, but she’s adopted a whole set of policies, which could either be a smart move to tie up the progressive wing of the party, or prove an early hostage to fortune and open a gao for a centrist ‘uniter’ (despite her current efforts to present herself as such).

    Biden is certainly still teasing a run:
    https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/28/joe-biden-2020-1133200

    I still think he’s too old at 76, wil be 78 on Inauguration Day if elected.

    But if he stands he probably wins the nomination. A genuine elder statesman whom Trump would struggle to deal with as an opponent.
    Trump would secretly fear Biden far more than Harris I suspect, I can already see him calling her 'Beyonce without the talent'
    Didn't Trump (draft dodger, due to heel problems ) once threaten Biden with physical violence? Although Biden too was declared unfit for service, due to childhood asthma.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    Sandpit said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    So is today going to be the day that Parliament redeems itself, or are we going to hear endless discussions about what people don’t want followed by a failure to agree on anything?

    I think we know the answer to that.

    The ERG will say No.
    Sarah Wollaston will demand a second referendum.
    Corbyn will demand a magical Brexit.
    The government will be defeated on a procedural amendment, which kicks the can down the road.
    That sounds about right.

    Dr Wollaston completely lost it yesterday, saying that the WA could never be amended, despite it being massively voted down last week - including by herself - and therefore dead in its current form.

    Some of the ERG types also lost it, it seems there’s a few diehards who will only agree to no deal.

    Corbyn I still can’t work out. At some point he’s either going to have to come off the fence, or be held responsible in the eyes of his supporters for perpetuating no deal.
    I loved the comment from one journalist about the ERG. " If you changed water into wine for them, they'd complain about the vintage."
  • Options
    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,949
    Scott_P said:

    CD13 said:

    The four freedoms must be inextricably linked according to the EU, but that is a political decision. That is the issue we ought to be concentrating on.

    Just as Brexiteers whine that Remoaners should "embrace the opportunities of Brexit", so Brexiteers should realise the four freedoms are a key benefit of the EU, not an "issue"

    I understand that Leave voters were unhappy about immigration, and unscrupulous charlatans campaigned on the basis that leaving the EU would fix it, but running out of food and medicine will not help those voters (or solve the immigration concerns)
    Telling people over and over that they benefit from freedom of movement when their own experience clearly taught them otherwise isn't just the reason why remain lost, it's the reason why project fear simply didn't stick then, and still isn't sticking now.

    People believe what they can see with their own eyes. And what they see is the fact that they can't get a doctor's appointment for weeks, their schools are full of children who don't speak English as a first language, people from eastern eurpoe are crowding four, eight, twelve to a house - and so on and so forth. Ignore the macro effect of immigration on GDP or the tax take or anything so abstract, they do not feel that they, personally, have benefited.

    And yet remainers keep on parroting the same tired lines. Freedom of movement is good! You benefit from it! Yes, you can go and work in Spain/Italy/Germany now! Etc. When what most people want, in these lean times, is a government that concentrates on fixing the problems at home and makes their sh*tty lives marginally better.

    Freedom of movement increases competition for jobs, state services and housing at the lowest rungs of society and remainers' utter inability to acknowledge this leads people to doubt them on everything else.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750

    kle4 said:

    viewcode said:

    It was the UK Government that asked y May.

    Do you want a deal or not? If you do then you have to accept that both asy.
    The EU insisted on WA before trade rrible.
    Well, we left the Club, it didn't leave us. odbye.
    people keep saying this and it just makes the EU look like for us, but it means they do need to negotiate something both of us agree so they can get what they say they want. No that doesn't mean they should give in to final demands, but blithely talking about how we left and acting as though that means they don't need to do anything at all ignores that they do want things from these talks, and even one sided negotiations involve trade off.

    What you say only makes sense if they never wanted a deal at all. So are you saying they've been lying this whole time?

    The EU has negotiated a deal it took nearly two years because the UK government could not agree with itself on what it wanted. Finally, The PM agreed a deal and told everyone it was the only one possible. She has now changed her mind with less than 60 days to go until we leave. I am struggling to see how this makes the EU either unreasonable or idiotic. From where I sit it makes the British government look utterly moronic.

    That's because you keep ignoring what I'm saying. I've said several times that while I think EU intransigence on the point is silly our demanding a late change is not likely to get them to change their mind nor is their refusing to do so unreasonable in itself.

    My objection is to the persistent claim the EU has had no need to do anything but wave us off. If they wanted a deal they needed to do more than that. And to be clear I think they did. Not as much as I'd like. But Mr punters point is one of several EU defences which if it were true suggests the EU have not operated in good faith and have not meant what they said this while time.

    That said, while the UK plan now is silly it's also not quite as unreasonable as you and the EU pretend it is. Parliament won't back the deal. The EU keeps demanding we tell them what we want. This would do that. With a demand they wont accept which makes it silly, but off The deal wont pass of course a side will try for changed.

    I don't think there's time for that but The EU are being deliberately obtuse in pretending bsfflement that the agreement is not being passed. They know parliament had to agree it.
  • Options
    kyf_100 said:

    Scott_P said:

    CD13 said:

    The four freedoms must be inextricably linked according to the EU, but that is a political decision. That is the issue we ought to be concentrating on.

    Just as Brexiteers whine that Remoaners should "embrace the opportunities of Brexit", so Brexiteers should realise the four freedoms are a key benefit of the EU, not an "issue"

    I understand that Leave voters were unhappy about immigration, and unscrupulous charlatans campaigned on the basis that leaving the EU would fix it, but running out of food and medicine will not help those voters (or solve the immigration concerns)
    Telling people over and over that they benefit from freedom of movement when their own experience clearly taught them otherwise isn't just the reason why remain lost, it's the reason why project fear simply didn't stick then, and still isn't sticking now.

    People believe what they can see with their own eyes. And what they see is the fact that they can't get a doctor's appointment for weeks, their schools are full of children who don't speak English as a first language, people from eastern eurpoe are crowding four, eight, twelve to a house - and so on and so forth. Ignore the macro effect of immigration on GDP or the tax take or anything so abstract, they do not feel that they, personally, have benefited.

    And yet remainers keep on parroting the same tired lines. Freedom of movement is good! You benefit from it! Yes, you can go and work in Spain/Italy/Germany now! Etc. When what most people want, in these lean times, is a government that concentrates on fixing the problems at home and makes their sh*tty lives marginally better.

    Freedom of movement increases competition for jobs, state services and housing at the lowest rungs of society and remainers' utter inability to acknowledge this leads people to doubt them on everything else.

    Is that why Remain got majorities in places where there are high levels of EU migration and Leave piled up the votes in areas where there are much lower levels?

  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    Sandpit said:

    So is today going to be the day that Parliament redeems itself, or are we going to hear endless discussions about what people don’t want followed by a failure to agree on anything?

    Give me 3 more months to think about the answer first.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,109
    edited January 2019
    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    So is today going to be the day that Parliament redeems itself, or are we going to hear endless discussions about what people don’t want followed by a failure to agree on anything?

    I think we know the answer to that.

    The ERG will say No.
    Sarah Wollaston will demand a second referendum.
    Corbyn will demand a magical Brexit.
    The government will be defeated on a procedural amendment, which kicks the can down the road.
    The end of the road is so close surely a wee nudge is all that's needed?
    (major road extensions notwithstanding)
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    kyf_100 said:

    Scott_P said:

    CD13 said:

    The four freedoms must be inextricably linked according to the EU, but that is a political decision. That is the issue we ought to be concentrating on.

    Just as Brexiteers whine that Remoaners should "embrace the opportunities of Brexit", so Brexiteers should realise the four freedoms are a key benefit of the EU, not an "issue"

    I understand that Leave voters were unhappy about immigration, and unscrupulous charlatans campaigned on the basis that leaving the EU would fix it, but running out of food and medicine will not help those voters (or solve the immigration concerns)
    Telling people over and over that they benefit from freedom of movement when their own experience clearly taught them otherwise isn't just the reason why remain lost, it's the reason why project fear simply didn't stick then, and still isn't sticking now.

    People believe what they can see with their own eyes. And what they see is the fact that they can't get a doctor's appointment for weeks, their schools are full of children who don't speak English as a first language, people from eastern eurpoe are crowding four, eight, twelve to a house - and so on and so forth. Ignore the macro effect of immigration on GDP or the tax take or anything so abstract, they do not feel that they, personally, have benefited.

    And yet remainers keep on parroting the same tired lines. Freedom of movement is good! You benefit from it! Yes, you can go and work in Spain/Italy/Germany now! Etc. When what most people want, in these lean times, is a government that concentrates on fixing the problems at home and makes their sh*tty lives marginally better.

    Freedom of movement increases competition for jobs, state services and housing at the lowest rungs of society and remainers' utter inability to acknowledge this leads people to doubt them on everything else.
    Why did areas with few immigrants vote more heavily Leave than areas with more?
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Sandpit said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    So is today going to be the day that Parliament redeems itself, or are we going to hear endless discussions about what people don’t want followed by a failure to agree on anything?

    What odds will you offer me on the latter?
    Ooh, 1/10 maybe, for stakes of similar size to what Mr Meeks can get on at Sporting Index?

    I liked the suggestion make by someone on here the other day, that we should have a general election with the 650 incumbents all barred from standing. Time for a peaceful revolution.
    The only downside to that idea is that the civil service. The country would be completely, entirely and exclusively run by people nobody had elected.

    Any civil servant who has been in post long enough to know where the coffee machine is would have to go too.

    But damn it, then the power in the land would vest in quangos.....
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    kyf_100 said:

    People believe what they can see with their own eyes. And what they see is the fact that they can't get a doctor's appointment for weeks, their schools are full of children who don't speak English as a first language, people from eastern eurpoe are crowding four, eight, twelve to a house - and so on and so forth. Ignore the macro effect of immigration on GDP or the tax take or anything so abstract, they do not feel that they, personally, have benefited.

    Leaving the EU doesn't fix that
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,613
    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    So is today going to be the day that Parliament redeems itself, or are we going to hear endless discussions about what people don’t want followed by a failure to agree on anything?

    I think we know the answer to that.

    The ERG will say No.
    Sarah Wollaston will demand a second referendum.
    Corbyn will demand a magical Brexit.
    The government will be defeated on a procedural amendment, which kicks the can down the road.
    That sounds about right.

    Dr Wollaston completely lost it yesterday, saying that the WA could never be amended, despite it being massively voted down last week - including by herself - and therefore dead in its current form.

    Some of the ERG types also lost it, it seems there’s a few diehards who will only agree to no deal.

    Corbyn I still can’t work out. At some point he’s either going to have to come off the fence, or be held responsible in the eyes of his supporters for perpetuating no deal.
    I loved the comment from one journalist about the ERG. " If you changed water into wine for them, they'd complain about the vintage."
    Or spit it out as foreign muck and demand beer.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990

    Sandpit said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    So is today going to be the day that Parliament redeems itself, or are we going to hear endless discussions about what people don’t want followed by a failure to agree on anything?

    What odds will you offer me on the latter?
    Ooh, 1/10 maybe, for stakes of similar size to what Mr Meeks can get on at Sporting Index?

    I liked the suggestion make by someone on here the other day, that we should have a general election with the 650 incumbents all barred from standing. Time for a peaceful revolution.
    The only downside to that idea is that the civil service. The country would be completely, entirely and exclusively run by people nobody had elected.

    Any civil servant who has been in post long enough to know where the coffee machine is would have to go too.

    But damn it, then the power in the land would vest in quangos.....
    Surely Sinn Fein could stand, since they haven't been involved.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    edited January 2019

    Is Mrs May now telling Tory MPs to oppose the deal she agreed with the EU?

    Yes. Or at it's most charitable, to agree the deal in principle while setting out the bit that they do not agree and need removed so she can tell the EU and they'll listen this time. It's nonsense.

    It's a blame shift.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    Nigelb said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    So is today going to be the day that Parliament redeems itself, or are we going to hear endless discussions about what people don’t want followed by a failure to agree on anything?

    I think we know the answer to that.

    The ERG will say No.
    Sarah Wollaston will demand a second referendum.
    Corbyn will demand a magical Brexit.
    The government will be defeated on a procedural amendment, which kicks the can down the road.
    That sounds about right.

    Dr Wollaston completely lost it yesterday, saying that the WA could never be amended, despite it being massively voted down last week - including by herself - and therefore dead in its current form.

    Some of the ERG types also lost it, it seems there’s a few diehards who will only agree to no deal.

    Corbyn I still can’t work out. At some point he’s either going to have to come off the fence, or be held responsible in the eyes of his supporters for perpetuating no deal.
    I loved the comment from one journalist about the ERG. " If you changed water into wine for them, they'd complain about the vintage."
    Or spit it out as foreign muck and demand beer.
    There's some very good English wine.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    kyf_100 said:

    Scott_P said:

    CD13 said:

    The four freedoms must be inextricably linked according to the EU, but that is a political decision. That is the issue we ought to be concentrating on.

    Just as Brexiteers whine that Remoaners should "embrace the opportunities of Brexit", so Brexiteers should realise the four freedoms are a key benefit of the EU, not an "issue"

    I understand that Leave voters were unhappy about immigration, and unscrupulous charlatans campaigned on the basis that leaving the EU would fix it, but running out of food and medicine will not help those voters (or solve the immigration concerns)
    Telling people over and over that they benefit from freedom of movement when their own experience clearly taught them otherwise isn't just the reason why remain lost, it's the reason why project fear simply didn't stick then, and still isn't sticking now.

    People believe what they can see with their own eyes. And what they see is the fact that they can't get a doctor's appointment for weeks, their schools are full of children who don't speak English as a first language, people from eastern eurpoe are crowding four, eight, twelve to a house - and so on and so forth. Ignore the macro effect of immigration on GDP or the tax take or anything so abstract, they do not feel that they, personally, have benefited.

    And yet remainers keep on parroting the same tired lines. Freedom of movement is good! You benefit from it! Yes, you can go and work in Spain/Italy/Germany now! Etc. When what most people want, in these lean times, is a government that concentrates on fixing the problems at home and makes their sh*tty lives marginally better.

    Freedom of movement increases competition for jobs, state services and housing at the lowest rungs of society and remainers' utter inability to acknowledge this leads people to doubt them on everything else.
    Why did areas with few immigrants vote more heavily Leave than areas with more?
    Or...areas with most immigrants voted more heavily to Remain. Why might that be?
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850

    kyf_100 said:

    Scott_P said:

    CD13 said:

    The four freedoms must be inextricably linked according to the EU, but that is a political decision. That is the issue we ought to be concentrating on.

    Just as Brexiteers whine that Remoaners should "embrace the opportunities of Brexit", so Brexiteers should realise the four freedoms are a key benefit of the EU, not an "issue"

    I understand that Leave voters were unhappy about immigration, and unscrupulous charlatans campaigned on the basis that leaving the EU would fix it, but running out of food and medicine will not help those voters (or solve the immigration concerns)
    Telling people over and over that they benefit from freedom of movement when their own experience clearly taught them otherwise isn't just the reason why remain lost, it's the reason why project fear simply didn't stick then, and still isn't sticking now.

    People believe what they can see with their own eyes. And what they see is the fact that they can't get a doctor's appointment for weeks, their schools are full of children who don't speak English as a first language, people from eastern eurpoe are crowding four, eight, twelve to a house - and so on and so forth. Ignore the macro effect of immigration on GDP or the tax take or anything so abstract, they do not feel that they, personally, have benefited.

    And yet remainers keep on parroting the same tired lines. Freedom of movement is good! You benefit from it! Yes, you can go and work in Spain/Italy/Germany now! Etc. When what most people want, in these lean times, is a government that concentrates on fixing the problems at home and makes their sh*tty lives marginally better.

    Freedom of movement increases competition for jobs, state services and housing at the lowest rungs of society and remainers' utter inability to acknowledge this leads people to doubt them on everything else.
    Why did areas with few immigrants vote more heavily Leave than areas with more?
    High levels of immigration must have been a driver of the Leave vote in places like Boston, and the Fens.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    kyf_100 said:

    Scott_P said:

    CD13 said:

    The four freedoms must be inextricably linked according to the EU, but that is a political decision. That is the issue we ought to be concentrating on.

    Just as Brexiteers whine that Remoaners should "embrace the opportunities of Brexit", so Brexiteers should realise the four freedoms are a key benefit of the EU, not an "issue"

    I understand that Leave voters were unhappy about immigration, and unscrupulous charlatans campaigned on the basis that leaving the EU would fix it, but running out of food and medicine will not help those voters (or solve the immigration concerns)
    Telling people over and over that they benefit from freedom of movement when their own experience clearly taught them otherwise isn't just the reason why remain lost, it's the reason why project fear simply didn't stick then, and still isn't sticking now.

    People believe what they can see with their own eyes. And what they see is the fact that they can't get a doctor's appointment for weeks, their schools are full of children who don't speak English as a first language, people from eastern eurpoe are crowding four, eight, twelve to a house - and so on and so forth. Ignore the macro effect of immigration on GDP or the tax take or anything so abstract, they do not feel that they, personally, have benefited.

    And yet remainers keep on parroting the same tired lines. Freedom of movement is good! You benefit from it! Yes, you can go and work in Spain/Italy/Germany now! Etc. When what most people want, in these lean times, is a government that concentrates on fixing the problems at home and makes their sh*tty lives marginally better.

    Freedom of movement increases competition for jobs, state services and housing at the lowest rungs of society and remainers' utter inability to acknowledge this leads people to doubt them on everything else.
    Why did areas with few immigrants vote more heavily Leave than areas with more?
    And why do Remainers worry more about their finances than Leavers?
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Good morning, everyone.

    If Harris is a black Hillary, she'll still win provided she manages to avoid insulting half the electorate and throwing resources at states she's guaranteed to win whilst denying them to contested states.

    All a Dem candidate has to do is add a percentage point to the Dem vote in the Rustbelt without even taking anything from Trump and they win.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    ConHome 'Unless pro Leave MPs back the Brady amendment today they risk ending up with no Brexit at all'

    https://mobile.twitter.com/ConHome/status/1090164974427795456
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    Is Mrs May now telling Tory MPs to oppose the deal she agreed with the EU?

    Unfair. MPs rejected the deal. She is now testing their mood on alternatives. It's unlikely to work but that is a shared fault.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850

    kyf_100 said:

    Scott_P said:

    CD13 said:

    The four freedoms must be inextricably linked according to the EU, but that is a political decision. That is the issue we ought to be concentrating on.

    Just as Brexiteers whine that Remoaners should "embrace the opportunities of Brexit", so Brexiteers should realise the four freedoms are a key benefit of the EU, not an "issue"

    I understand that Leave voters were unhappy about immigration, and unscrupulous charlatans campaigned on the basis that leaving the EU would fix it, but running out of food and medicine will not help those voters (or solve the immigration concerns)
    Telling people over and over that they benefit from freedom of movement when their own experience clearly taught them otherwise isn't just the reason why remain lost, it's the reason why project fear simply didn't stick then, and still isn't sticking now.

    People believe what they can see with their own eyes. And what they see is the fact that they can't get a doctor's appointment for weeks, their schools are full of children who don't speak English as a first language, people from eastern eurpoe are crowding four, eight, twelve to a house - and so on and so forth. Ignore the macro effect of immigration on GDP or the tax take or anything so abstract, they do not feel that they, personally, have benefited.

    And yet remainers keep on parroting the same tired lines. Freedom of movement is good! You benefit from it! Yes, you can go and work in Spain/Italy/Germany now! Etc. When what most people want, in these lean times, is a government that concentrates on fixing the problems at home and makes their sh*tty lives marginally better.

    Freedom of movement increases competition for jobs, state services and housing at the lowest rungs of society and remainers' utter inability to acknowledge this leads people to doubt them on everything else.
    Why did areas with few immigrants vote more heavily Leave than areas with more?
    And why do Remainers worry more about their finances than Leavers?
    On average, they're wealthier.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    Sandpit said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    So is today going to be the day that Parliament redeems itself, or are we going to hear endless discussions about what people don’t want followed by a failure to agree on anything?

    I think we know the answer to that.

    The ERG will say No.
    Sarah Wollaston will demand a second referendum.
    Corbyn will demand a magical Brexit.
    The government will be defeated on a procedural amendment, which kicks the can down the road.
    That sounds about right.

    Dr Wollaston completely lost it yesterday, saying that the WA could never be amended, despite it being massively voted down last week - including by herself - and therefore dead in its current form.

    Some of the ERG types also lost it, it seems there’s a few diehards who will only agree to no deal.

    Corbyn I still can’t work out. At some point he’s either going to have to come off the fence, or be held responsible in the eyes of his supporters for perpetuating no deal.
    Um, saying it cannot be amended is listening to the PM for the last 4 months. The deal is dead in its current form,Yes, but it's its only form.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    edited January 2019
    Alistair said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    If Harris is a black Hillary, she'll still win provided she manages to avoid insulting half the electorate and throwing resources at states she's guaranteed to win whilst denying them to contested states.

    All a Dem candidate has to do is add a percentage point to the Dem vote in the Rustbelt without even taking anything from Trump and they win.
    They may go backwards not forwards, after Gore won the popular vote in 2000 Democrats thought 2004 was locked on, Kerry ended up losing the popular vote and electoral college.

    Picking another liberal elitist like Kerry is not going to win the Democrats the Electoral College against Trump
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,613

    kyf_100 said:

    Scott_P said:

    CD13 said:

    The four freedoms must be inextricably linked according to the EU, but that is a political decision. That is the issue we ought to be concentrating on.

    Just as Brexiteers whine that Remoaners should "embrace the opportunities of Brexit", so Brexiteers should realise the four freedoms are a key benefit of the EU, not an "issue"

    I understand that Leave voters were unhappy about immigration, and unscrupulous charlatans campaigned on the basis that leaving the EU would fix it, but running out of food and medicine will not help those voters (or solve the immigration concerns)
    Telling people over and over that they benefit from freedom of movement when their own experience clearly taught them otherwise isn't just the reason why remain lost, it's the reason why project fear simply didn't stick then, and still isn't sticking now.

    People believe what they can see with their own eyes. And what they see is the fact that they can't get a doctor's appointment for weeks, their schools are full of children who don't speak English as a first language, people from eastern eurpoe are crowding four, eight, twelve to a house - and so on and so forth. Ignore the macro effect of immigration on GDP or the tax take or anything so abstract, they do not feel that they, personally, have benefited.

    And yet remainers keep on parroting the same tired lines. Freedom of movement is good! You benefit from it! Yes, you can go and work in Spain/Italy/Germany now! Etc. When what most people want, in these lean times, is a government that concentrates on fixing the problems at home and makes their sh*tty lives marginally better.

    Freedom of movement increases competition for jobs, state services and housing at the lowest rungs of society and remainers' utter inability to acknowledge this leads people to doubt them on everything else.

    Is that why Remain got majorities in places where there are high levels of EU migration and Leave piled up the votes in areas where there are much lower levels?

    A platform of anti-immigration is not necessarily a rational one.
    Voting leave will do nothing to lessen immigration from the Indian sub continent, but that doesn't mean there isn't a correlation between areas voting leave and those of significant Asian population.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I think it wrong to assume Biden is not running.
    Harris has made a good start, but she’s adopted a whole set of policies, which could either be a smart move to tie up the progressive wing of the party, or prove an early hostage to fortune and open a gao for a centrist ‘uniter’ (despite her current efforts to present herself as such).

    Biden is certainly still teasing a run:
    https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/28/joe-biden-2020-1133200

    I still think he’s too old at 76, wil be 78 on Inauguration Day if elected.

    But if he stands he probably wins the nomination. A genuine elder statesman whom Trump would struggle to deal with as an opponent.
    Trump would secretly fear Biden far more than Harris I suspect, I can already see him calling her 'Beyonce without the talent'
    Didn't Trump (draft dodger, due to heel problems ) once threaten Biden with physical violence? Although Biden too was declared unfit for service, due to childhood asthma.
    Biden certainly can rise above it
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Pulpstar said:

    Prediction, Copper-Boles to pass and sterling to head north of $1.33

    Hope so!
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    HYUFD said:

    ConHome 'Unless pro Leave MPs back the Brady amendment today they risk ending up with no Brexit at all'

    https://mobile.twitter.com/ConHome/status/1090164974427795456

    They don't care. Better to go down to defeat than make a single concession.
  • Options
    StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    "Bernie, who played a big part in Trump’s victory at WH2016" One of Clinton's really bottom-of-the-barrel excuses for her failure. If she believed that hanging on for the nomination after it's clear you've lost is such a gift to the opposition, why did she do exactly the same to Obama?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    Scott_P said:
    you mean the thing thrashed out late at night by people congratulated just for getting in the room together, designed solely to try to stitch together party factions, might not be the most viable plan?

  • Options

    kyf_100 said:

    Scott_P said:

    CD13 said:

    The four freedoms must be inextricably linked according to the EU, but that is a political decision. That is the issue we ought to be concentrating on.

    Just as Brexiteers whine that Remoaners should "embrace the opportunities of Brexit", so Brexiteers should realise the four freedoms are a key benefit of the EU, not an "issue"

    I understand that Leave voters were unhappy about immigration, and unscrupulous charlatans campaigned on the basis that leaving the EU would fix it, but running out of food and medicine will not help those voters (or solve the immigration concerns)
    Telling people over and over that they benefit from freedom of movement when their own experience clearly taught them otherwise isn't just the reason why remain lost, it's the reason why project fear simply didn't stick then, and still isn't sticking now.

    People believe what they can see with their own eyes. And what they see is the fact that they can't get a doctor's appointment for weeks, their schools are full of children who don't speak English as a first language, people from eastern eurpoe are crowding four, eight, twelve to a house - and so on and so forth. Ignore the macro effect of immigration on GDP or the tax take or anything so abstract, they do not feel that they, personally, have benefited.

    And yet remainers keep on parroting the same tired lines. Freedom of movement is good! You benefit from it! Yes, you can go and work in Spain/Italy/Germany now! Etc. When what most people want, in these lean times, is a government that concentrates on fixing the problems at home and makes their sh*tty lives marginally better.

    Freedom of movement increases competition for jobs, state services and housing at the lowest rungs of society and remainers' utter inability to acknowledge this leads people to doubt them on everything else.
    Why did areas with few immigrants vote more heavily Leave than areas with more?
    And why do Remainers worry more about their finances than Leavers?
    Because they know the price of everything but the value of nothing.
  • Options
    asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,276
    Can someone explain what this "plan c / malthouse compromise" actually involves ?
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,999
    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I think it wrong to assume Biden is not running.
    Harris has made a good start, but she’s adopted a whole set of policies, which could either be a smart move to tie up the progressive wing of the party, or prove an early hostage to fortune and open a gao for a centrist ‘uniter’ (despite her current efforts to present herself as such).

    Biden is certainly still teasing a run:
    https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/28/joe-biden-2020-1133200

    I still think he’s too old at 76, wil be 78 on Inauguration Day if elected.

    But if he stands he probably wins the nomination. A genuine elder statesman whom Trump would struggle to deal with as an opponent.
    Trump would secretly fear Biden far more than Harris I suspect, I can already see him calling her 'Beyonce without the talent'
    Biden would be "Creepy Joe".
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    HYUFD said:

    ConHome 'Unless pro Leave MPs back the Brady amendment today they risk ending up with no Brexit at all'

    https://mobile.twitter.com/ConHome/status/1090164974427795456

    The ERG prefer no brexit to a bad brexit, by action even if not word.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007

    "Bernie, who played a big part in Trump’s victory at WH2016" One of Clinton's really bottom-of-the-barrel excuses for her failure. If she believed that hanging on for the nomination after it's clear you've lost is such a gift to the opposition, why did she do exactly the same to Obama?

    Yes Sanders may have won the rustbelt and beaten Trump
  • Options
    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,341
    edited January 2019

    kyf_100 said:

    Scott_P said:

    CD13 said:

    The four freedoms must be inextricably linked according to the EU, but that is a political decision. That is the issue we ought to be concentrating on.

    Just as Brexiteers whine that Remoaners should "embrace the opportunities of Brexit", so Brexiteers should realise the four freedoms are a key benefit of the EU, not an "issue"

    I understand that Leave voters were unhappy about immigration, and unscrupulous charlatans campaigned on the basis that leaving the EU would fix it, but running out of food and medicine will not help those voters (or solve the immigration concerns)
    Telling people over and over that they benefit from freedom of movement when their own experience clearly taught them otherwise isn't just the reason why remain lost, it's the reason why project fear simply didn't stick then, and still isn't sticking now.

    People believe what they can see with their own eyes. And what they see is the fact that they can't get a doctor's appointment for weeks, their schools are full of children who don't speak English as a first language, people from eastern eurpoe are crowding four, eight, twelve to a house - and so on and so forth. Ignore the macro effect of immigration on GDP or the tax take or anything so abstract, they do not feel that they, personally, have benefited.

    And yet remainers keep on parroting the same tired lines. Freedom of movement is good! You benefit from it! Yes, you can go and work in Spain/Italy/Germany now! Etc. When what most people want, in these lean times, is a government that concentrates on fixing the problems at home and makes their sh*tty lives marginally better.

    Freedom of movement increases competition for jobs, state services and housing at the lowest rungs of society and remainers' utter inability to acknowledge this leads people to doubt them on everything else.
    Why did areas with few immigrants vote more heavily Leave than areas with more?
    Or...areas with most immigrants voted more heavily to Remain. Why might that be?
    Presumably because the benefits of free movement were clear and obvious in those areas. Only UK citizens were eligible to vote in the referendum so please don’t insinuate it was the immigrants themselves
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Sean_F said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Scott_P said:

    CD13 said:

    The four freedoms must be inextricably linked according to the EU, but that is a political decision. That is the issue we ought to be concentrating on.

    Just as Brexiteers whine that Remoaners should "embrace the opportunities of Brexit", so Brexiteers should realise the four freedoms are a key benefit of the EU, not an "issue"

    I understand that Leave voters were unhappy about immigration, and unscrupulous charlatans campaigned on the basis that leaving the EU would fix it, but running out of food and medicine will not help those voters (or solve the immigration concerns)
    Telling people over and over that they benefit from freedom of movement when their own experience clearly taught them otherwise isn't just the reason why remain lost, it's the reason why project fear simply didn't stick then, and still isn't sticking now.

    People believe what they can see with their own eyes. And what they see is the fact that they can't get a doctor's appointment for weeks, their schools are full of children who don't speak English as a first language, people from eastern eurpoe are crowding four, eight, twelve to a house - and so on and so forth. Ignore the macro effect of immigration on GDP or the tax take or anything so abstract, they do not feel that they, personally, have benefited.

    And yet remainers keep on parroting the same tired lines. Freedom of movement is good! You benefit from it! Yes, you can go and work in Spain/Italy/Germany now! Etc. When what most people want, in these lean times, is a government that concentrates on fixing the problems at home and makes their sh*tty lives marginally better.

    Freedom of movement increases competition for jobs, state services and housing at the lowest rungs of society and remainers' utter inability to acknowledge this leads people to doubt them on everything else.
    Why did areas with few immigrants vote more heavily Leave than areas with more?
    And why do Remainers worry more about their finances than Leavers?
    On average, they're wealthier.
    It does rather go against the idea that Leavers were voting from desperation so widely touted by reactionaries who have suddenly sprouted a social conscience.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,999

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I think it wrong to assume Biden is not running.
    Harris has made a good start, but she’s adopted a whole set of policies, which could either be a smart move to tie up the progressive wing of the party, or prove an early hostage to fortune and open a gao for a centrist ‘uniter’ (despite her current efforts to present herself as such).

    Biden is certainly still teasing a run:
    https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/28/joe-biden-2020-1133200

    I still think he’s too old at 76, wil be 78 on Inauguration Day if elected.

    But if he stands he probably wins the nomination. A genuine elder statesman whom Trump would struggle to deal with as an opponent.
    Trump would secretly fear Biden far more than Harris I suspect, I can already see him calling her 'Beyonce without the talent'
    Didn't Trump (draft dodger, due to heel problems ) once threaten Biden with physical violence? Although Biden too was declared unfit for service, due to childhood asthma.
    If we're speculating on septuagenarian fisticuffs then Mueller could handle them both at the same time. That guy has seen some shit.
This discussion has been closed.