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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » There was no big 8pm story as promised but leading LAB & CON f

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited February 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » There was no big 8pm story as promised but leading LAB & CON figures have made interesting comments

I asked both @ChukaUmunna and @Anna_Soubry directly tonight if they were considering leaving their respective parties for a new movement. Umunna said: “When I joined the Labour Party I thought I’d be a member to my dying day…..” https://t.co/vgqUTwKHpb

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    first to open the boxed wine!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    Second to order the pineaple pizza!
  • First. Like Churchill in 1951.
  • All those hoping that ISIS fighers and WAGS would be getting charged with some sort of crime...

    It has emerged that the vast majority of Islamist fighters returning to the UK from Syria have been placed on “secretive” government rehabilitation schemes rather than be prosecuted. Only 1 in 10 have been prosecuted.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/02/14/us-plans-jail-british-jihadis-guantanamo-getting-fed-up-uks/
  • Foxy said:

    first to open the boxed wine!

    Glad I was late to the party now.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069

    All those hoping that ISIS fighers and WAGS would be getting charged with some sort of crime...

    It has emerged that the vast majority of Islamist fighters returning to the UK from Syria have been placed on “secretive” government rehabilitation schemes rather than be prosecuted. Only 1 in 10 have been prosecuted.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/02/14/us-plans-jail-british-jihadis-guantanamo-getting-fed-up-uks/

    A little bit of leaking that they have turned Queens evidence and been very helpful to the security services is all that is needed!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Nobody who keeps making these hints they might leave deserves sympathy or respect. It's not an easy decision for any of them to take, there's a lot of emotion in it, there's calculation of whether it would do more harm than good and all the rest. But enough is bloody enough. They leak their unhappiness, they bitch and moan, they whine constantly about how things are not as they desire. It's just too much. No, they are not obliged to take such grand action for our amusement or to satisfy our own desires for a split or realignment, but it's beyond a joke now.
  • Foxy said:

    Second to order the pineaple pizza!

    My wife had pineapple on pizza tonight.

    Even though it's valentines, should I consider divorce?
  • Foxy said:

    Second to order the pineaple pizza!

    My wife had pineapple on pizza tonight.

    Even though it's valentines, should I consider divorce?
    Sounds like an episode of Jeremy Kyle.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    SeanT said:

    We are spineless. We are mules led by maggots. How I loathe this effete, repulsive, liberal elite that seeks to govern us. Get rid of them all. GET RID.

    https://twitter.com/matt_dathan/status/1096178672799805440
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    DavidL said:

    Just back from a Valentine day’s meal out and I see that the utterly pathetic meaningless gesturism is still persisting in Westminster. When are these spoiled brats going to grow up?

    To answer that question we need to ask: What political benefit will they get by growing up? Who will reward which side, or all sides, grows up?

    The answer is the public won't reward whoever gives in, so extremist ideologically driven wankers in the parties will drive things as the majority prepared to go with the flow don't have the stomach to stop them

    Foxy said:

    Second to order the pineaple pizza!

    My wife had pineapple on pizza tonight.

    Even though it's valentines, should I consider divorce?
    More joy over one sinner who repents and so on and so forth - everyone's a work in progress. But it is pushing it.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    FTPT

    Alistair said:

    The idea of Trump actually declaring the national emergency is hilarious.

    Congress can immediatly pass a vote ending it. Then the Senate has to vote on ending it 18 days later (15 days of Comittee then 3 days to vote) no filibuster allowed. Straight up and down.

    I didn't know that - but would a republican senate actually end it, given the support for the wall amongst republicans is 87%
    It will force Senate Republicans to put their name to a piece of Trumpism. Oppose the Emergency and get devoured in a primary. Approve it and risk their seat in the general. Just as 2018 was a brutal map for the Dems to defend 2020 is not sweetness and light for the GOP.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765
    SeanT said:

    All those hoping that ISIS fighers and WAGS would be getting charged with some sort of crime...

    It has emerged that the vast majority of Islamist fighters returning to the UK from Syria have been placed on “secretive” government rehabilitation schemes rather than be prosecuted. Only 1 in 10 have been prosecuted.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/02/14/us-plans-jail-british-jihadis-guantanamo-getting-fed-up-uks/

    I just,,,, despair. We should be throwing them in dungeons. Solitary confinement for life. No appeal. Instead they either walk free, or they get "council accommodation" and a bit of therapy. These are men who burned people alive, and gloried in it. Exulted.

    We have lost all sense of moral direction. We are spineless. We are mules led by maggots. How I loathe this effete, repulsive, liberal elite that seeks to govern us. Get rid of them all. GET RID.
    Just ask the Kurds to shoot them. Simple, effective, and just.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615
    edited February 2019
    Churchill’s breaking of a miners strike has lingered long and bitter in left wing circles, to say Churchill is no hero of mine because of Tonypandy is completely fair enough.

    Jim Callaghan’s remark seems more inflammatory to me than how McD put it. In fact Callaghan’s remark, 68 years after the event, is itself revealing about the extent tonypandy tarnished views of Churchill in the Labour movement.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited February 2019
    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    SeanT said:

    We are spineless. We are mules led by maggots. How I loathe this effete, repulsive, liberal elite that seeks to govern us. Get rid of them all. GET RID.

    https://twitter.com/matt_dathan/status/1096178672799805440
    Whatever happens to Brexit, let us agree that we need a Spring clean. Our parliamentary democracy is as rotted and mouldy as the building in which it sits, and needs total rebuilding, from the ground up.
    We can all agree it, but to what purpose? Are any of us so naiive as to think that, absent the kind of epochal party realignment that still looks for the birds, that the return rate of incumbents will be appreciably any lower than it usually is?

    Everyone should justifiably hold our MPs in contempt over their internecine bickering, indecision, gutlessness, displacement activity, cowardice, and outright dishonesty of intention. But we the public will say that and then cast our votes for the same old shower. After all, the 'other lot', whoever they are, will be so much worse, right?

    Not to be too woe is me, but Brexit is making me despise myself right now. Some would say that is at least halfway recompense. I truly never expected even a fraught and fractious politics to get this pathetic.
  • Foxy said:

    Second to order the pineaple pizza!

    My wife had pineapple on pizza tonight.

    Even though it's valentines, should I consider divorce?
    Sounds like an episode of Jeremy Kyle.
    Do they pay a fee?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    kle4 said:

    Nobody who keeps making these hints they might leave deserves sympathy or respect. It's not an easy decision for any of them to take, there's a lot of emotion in it, there's calculation of whether it would do more harm than good and all the rest. But enough is bloody enough. They leak their unhappiness, they bitch and moan, they whine constantly about how things are not as they desire. It's just too much. No, they are not obliged to take such grand action for our amusement or to satisfy our own desires for a split or realignment, but it's beyond a joke now.

    When an organisation's culture turns toxic, there are a number of human behaviours that you see over and over again. One of the most common and, possibly, the most toxic is cowardice - a failure to stand up for what is right, a failure to speak up, a failure to challenge, a failure to act when action was needed. Most people are cowards.

    They justify it in lots of ways: loyalty to colleagues, wanting to stay and fight and change from "within", not wanting to give up, thinking that someone else was doing something, it's not my responsibility, what can I do - I'm too unimportant, fear of the consequences, concern for their families etc etc. And all those reasons can seem justifiable and reasonable. But in the end people are rationalising their unwillingness to act, their cowardice.

    Most people aren't heroes, most people don't want to be heroes, most people don't want to stick out or speak up or be left out in the cold, outside the group, treated as snitches or as disloyal or as "traitors" to a group or a cause. Most of us are like this.

    Physical courage is admired. Moral courage is rarer and is not much admired. In theory maybe. But not in practice. Loyalty is valued. Little wonder that we get lots of huddling within the group and relatively few examples of moral courage.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    SeanT said:

    We are spineless. We are mules led by maggots. How I loathe this effete, repulsive, liberal elite that seeks to govern us. Get rid of them all. GET RID.

    https://twitter.com/matt_dathan/status/1096178672799805440
    Whatever happens to Brexit, let us agree that we need a Spring clean. Our parliamentary democracy is as rotted and mouldy as the building in which it sits, and needs total rebuilding, from the ground up.
    Nah, considering that there is nothing at the moment that the government wants them to debate or vote on, they might as well go ski-ing.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    Nobody who keeps making these hints they might leave deserves sympathy or respect. It's not an easy decision for any of them to take, there's a lot of emotion in it, there's calculation of whether it would do more harm than good and all the rest. But enough is bloody enough. They leak their unhappiness, they bitch and moan, they whine constantly about how things are not as they desire. It's just too much. No, they are not obliged to take such grand action for our amusement or to satisfy our own desires for a split or realignment, but it's beyond a joke now.

    When an organisation's culture turns toxic, there are a number of human behaviours that you see over and over again. One of the most common and, possibly, the most toxic is cowardice - a failure to stand up for what is right, a failure to speak up, a failure to challenge, a failure to act when action was needed. Most people are cowards.

    They justify it in lots of ways: loyalty to colleagues, wanting to stay and fight and change from "within", not wanting to give up, thinking that someone else was doing something, it's not my responsibility, what can I do - I'm too unimportant, fear of the consequences, concern for their families etc etc. And all those reasons can seem justifiable and reasonable. But in the end people are rationalising their unwillingness to act, their cowardice.

    Most people aren't heroes, most people don't want to be heroes, most people don't want to stick out or speak up or be left out in the cold, outside the group, treated as snitches or as disloyal or as "traitors" to a group or a cause. Most of us are like this.

    Physical courage is admired. Moral courage is rarer and is not much admired. In theory maybe. But not in practice. Loyalty is valued. Little wonder that we get lots of huddling within the group and relatively few examples of moral courage.
    Depressingly on the nose.

    If you ever decided yourself to enter politics though, I'd advise not to make 'most people are cowards' your campaign slogan.
  • Foxy said:

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    SeanT said:

    We are spineless. We are mules led by maggots. How I loathe this effete, repulsive, liberal elite that seeks to govern us. Get rid of them all. GET RID.

    https://twitter.com/matt_dathan/status/1096178672799805440
    Whatever happens to Brexit, let us agree that we need a Spring clean. Our parliamentary democracy is as rotted and mouldy as the building in which it sits, and needs total rebuilding, from the ground up.
    Nah, considering that there is nothing at the moment that the government wants them to debate or vote on, they might as well go ski-ing.
    Indeed. Seems a bit rich to complain about having half term off, considering the Olympic sport level can kicking May is subjecting them all to.

    Why not suspend HoC until the Autumn, so they can all take in the full season and the Grouse moors?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765
    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    Nobody who keeps making these hints they might leave deserves sympathy or respect. It's not an easy decision for any of them to take, there's a lot of emotion in it, there's calculation of whether it would do more harm than good and all the rest. But enough is bloody enough. They leak their unhappiness, they bitch and moan, they whine constantly about how things are not as they desire. It's just too much. No, they are not obliged to take such grand action for our amusement or to satisfy our own desires for a split or realignment, but it's beyond a joke now.

    When an organisation's culture turns toxic, there are a number of human behaviours that you see over and over again. One of the most common and, possibly, the most toxic is cowardice - a failure to stand up for what is right, a failure to speak up, a failure to challenge, a failure to act when action was needed. Most people are cowards.

    They justify it in lots of ways: loyalty to colleagues, wanting to stay and fight and change from "within", not wanting to give up, thinking that someone else was doing something, it's not my responsibility, what can I do - I'm too unimportant, fear of the consequences, concern for their families etc etc. And all those reasons can seem justifiable and reasonable. But in the end people are rationalising their unwillingness to act, their cowardice.

    Most people aren't heroes, most people don't want to be heroes, most people don't want to stick out or speak up or be left out in the cold, outside the group, treated as snitches or as disloyal or as "traitors" to a group or a cause. Most of us are like this.

    Physical courage is admired. Moral courage is rarer and is not much admired. In theory maybe. But not in practice. Loyalty is valued. Little wonder that we get lots of huddling within the group and relatively few examples of moral courage.
    Good post.

    When push comes to shove, most people will display physical courage, but moral courage is so much harder.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615
    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    All those hoping that ISIS fighers and WAGS would be getting charged with some sort of crime...

    It has emerged that the vast majority of Islamist fighters returning to the UK from Syria have been placed on “secretive” government rehabilitation schemes rather than be prosecuted. Only 1 in 10 have been prosecuted.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/02/14/us-plans-jail-british-jihadis-guantanamo-getting-fed-up-uks/

    I just,,,, despair. We should be throwing them in dungeons. Solitary confinement for life. No appeal. Instead they either walk free, or they get "council accommodation" and a bit of therapy. These are men who burned people alive, and gloried in it. Exulted.

    We have lost all sense of moral direction. We are spineless. We are mules led by maggots. How I loathe this effete, repulsive, liberal elite that seeks to govern us. Get rid of them all. GET RID.
    Just ask the Kurds to shoot them. Simple, effective, and just.
    Absolutely.

    It’s what Churchill would have ordered.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    Foxy said:

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    SeanT said:

    We are spineless. We are mules led by maggots. How I loathe this effete, repulsive, liberal elite that seeks to govern us. Get rid of them all. GET RID.

    https://twitter.com/matt_dathan/status/1096178672799805440
    Whatever happens to Brexit, let us agree that we need a Spring clean. Our parliamentary democracy is as rotted and mouldy as the building in which it sits, and needs total rebuilding, from the ground up.
    Nah, considering that there is nothing at the moment that the government wants them to debate or vote on, they might as well go ski-ing.
    Indeed. Seems a bit rich to complain about having half term off, considering the Olympic sport level can kicking May is subjecting them all to.

    Why not suspend HoC until the Autumn, so they can all take in the full season and the Grouse moors?
    She isn't subjecting them to it - they have the power to stop it if they truly wanted. And the most popular alternative option is to kick the can way further than May is kicking it, so parliament cannot get high and mighty over being subjected to this.
  • dots said:

    Churchill’s breaking of a miners strike has lingered long and bitter in left wing circles, to say Churchill is no hero of mine because of Tonypandy is completely fair enough.

    Jim Callaghan’s remark seems more inflammatory to me than how McD put it. In fact Callaghan’s remark, 68 years after the event, is itself revealing about the extent tonypandy tarnished views of Churchill in the Labour movement.

    Hmm. Attlee must have either not shared these misgivings or buried them in order to work with Churchill to beat Fascists.
  • Most MPs are career politicians. The first word is a lot more important than the second.
  • Roses are Red, Violets are Blue,
    Did you fight for ISIS,
    Cos we have a lovely 2 up 2 down for you.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    Nobody who keeps making these hints they might leave deserves sympathy or respect. It's not an easy decision for any of them to take, there's a lot of emotion in it, there's calculation of whether it would do more harm than good and all the rest. But enough is bloody enough. They leak their unhappiness, they bitch and moan, they whine constantly about how things are not as they desire. It's just too much. No, they are not obliged to take such grand action for our amusement or to satisfy our own desires for a split or realignment, but it's beyond a joke now.

    When an organisation's culture turns toxic, there are a number of human behaviours that you see over and over again. One of the most common and, possibly, the most toxic is cowardice - a failure to stand up for what is right, a failure to speak up, a failure to challenge, a failure to act when action was needed. Most people are cowards.

    They justify it in lots of ways: loyalty to colleagues, wanting to stay and fight and change from "within", not wanting to give up, thinking that someone else was doing something, it's not my responsibility, what can I do - I'm too unimportant, fear of the consequences, concern for their families etc etc. And all those reasons can seem justifiable and reasonable. But in the end people are rationalising their unwillingness to act, their cowardice.

    Most people aren't heroes, most people don't want to be heroes, most people don't want to stick out or speak up or be left out in the cold, outside the group, treated as snitches or as disloyal or as "traitors" to a group or a cause. Most of us are like this.

    Physical courage is admired. Moral courage is rarer and is not much admired. In theory maybe. But not in practice. Loyalty is valued. Little wonder that we get lots of huddling within the group and relatively few examples of moral courage.
    Depressingly on the nose.

    If you ever decided yourself to enter politics though, I'd advise not to make 'most people are cowards' your campaign slogan.
    Fair point. But bear in mind I'm no saint. I include myself in this description. And, frankly, I'm too old to care what people think. I have spent the last few years telling people, pretty bluntly, what I think of them and their behaviour. Remarkably I have had no comeback. Maybe there's a lesson there somewhere.

    We need more "speaking truth to power".
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    SeanT said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    Nobody who keeps making these hints they might leave deserves sympathy or respect. It's not an easy decision for any of them to take, there's a lot of emotion in it, there's calculation of whether it would do more harm than good and all the rest. But enough is bloody enough. They leak their unhappiness, they bitch and moan, they whine constantly about how things are not as they desire. It's just too much. No, they are not obliged to take such grand action for our amusement or to satisfy our own desires for a split or realignment, but it's beyond a joke now.

    When an organisation's culture turns toxic, there are a number of human behaviours that you see over and over again. One of the most common and, possibly, the most toxic is cowardice - a failure to stand up for what is right, a failure to speak up, a failure to challenge, a failure to act when action was needed. Most people are cowards.

    They justify it in lots of ways: loyalty to colleagues, wanting to stay and fight and change from "within", not wanting to give up, thinking that someone else was doing something, it's not my responsibility, what can I do - I'm too unimportant, fear of the consequences, concern for their families etc etc. And all those reasons can seem justifiable and reasonable. But in the end people are rationalising their unwillingness to act, their cowardice.

    Most people aren't heroes, most people don't want to be heroes, most people don't want to stick out or speak up or be left out in the cold, outside the group, treated as snitches or as disloyal or as "traitors" to a group or a cause. Most of us are like this.

    Physical courage is admired. Moral courage is rarer and is not much admired. In theory maybe. But not in practice. Loyalty is valued. Little wonder that we get lots of huddling within the group and relatively few examples of moral courage.
    It's coming to the point where admitting you were an MP of the Brexit Parliament, 2017-20??, will be such a badge of shame you will never confess to it in public, It will be the opposite of the 70m members of the French Resistance.

    "What me? MP for Swindon in 2018? No, no no no, I was, uhm, a plumber. No, I mean a bricklayer. Yes. Bricklayer. Honest."
    Ah, but you're wrong - they will merely stick with their chosen cliques at all times and revel in how they held firm and fought for Remain/HardBrexit/Unicorns to the bitter end, and though it ended in disaster it was all worth it rather than given in to those other bastards, right comrades?!

    We know this because there are MPs being utterly false about fearing certain options while being very prepared to see them come to pass so long as they have the chance of their ideal option, and many many people praise them for their noble integrity.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765
    SeanT said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    Nobody who keeps making these hints they might leave deserves sympathy or respect. It's not an easy decision for any of them to take, there's a lot of emotion in it, there's calculation of whether it would do more harm than good and all the rest. But enough is bloody enough. They leak their unhappiness, they bitch and moan, they whine constantly about how things are not as they desire. It's just too much. No, they are not obliged to take such grand action for our amusement or to satisfy our own desires for a split or realignment, but it's beyond a joke now.

    When an organisation's culture turns toxic, there are a number of human behaviours that you see over and over again. One of the most common and, possibly, the most toxic is cowardice - a failure to stand up for what is right, a failure to speak up, a failure to challenge, a failure to act when action was needed. Most people are cowards.

    They justify it in lots of ways: loyalty to colleagues, wanting to stay and fight and change from "within", not wanting to give up, thinking that someone else was doing something, it's not my responsibility, what can I do - I'm too unimportant, fear of the consequences, concern for their families etc etc. And all those reasons can seem justifiable and reasonable. But in the end people are rationalising their unwillingness to act, their cowardice.

    Most people aren't heroes, most people don't want to be heroes, most people don't want to stick out or speak up or be left out in the cold, outside the group, treated as snitches or as disloyal or as "traitors" to a group or a cause. Most of us are like this.

    Physical courage is admired. Moral courage is rarer and is not much admired. In theory maybe. But not in practice. Loyalty is valued. Little wonder that we get lots of huddling within the group and relatively few examples of moral courage.
    It's coming to the point where admitting you were an MP of the Brexit Parliament, 2017-20??, will be such a badge of shame you will never confess to it in public, It will be the opposite of the 70m members of the French Resistance.

    "What me? MP for Swindon in 2018? No, no no no, I was, uhm, a plumber. No, I mean a bricklayer. Yes. Bricklayer. Honest."
    Yet, how can you break with your family/friends/allies/colleagues?

    Moral courage requires you to be willing to be hated, to be seen as a traitor, to be a pariah.
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006
    Oh please. Most associations are about as political as the WI.
  • The contempt that I find widespread here and elsewhere for our political classes crosses Party, social class, and education. How should one express this in a way that is lawful and democratic?

    I just don't know.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    Nobody who keeps making these hints they might leave deserves sympathy or respect. It's not an easy decision for any of them to take, there's a lot of emotion in it, there's calculation of whether it would do more harm than good and all the rest. But enough is bloody enough. They leak their unhappiness, they bitch and moan, they whine constantly about how things are not as they desire. It's just too much. No, they are not obliged to take such grand action for our amusement or to satisfy our own desires for a split or realignment, but it's beyond a joke now.



    Most people aren't heroes, most people don't want to be heroes, most people don't want to stick out or speak up or be left out in the cold, outside the group, treated as snitches or as disloyal or as "traitors" to a group or a cause. Most of us are like this.

    Physical courage is admired. Moral courage is rarer and is not much admired. In theory maybe. But not in practice. Loyalty is valued. Little wonder that we get lots of huddling within the group and relatively few examples of moral courage.
    Depressingly on the nose.

    If you ever decided yourself to enter politics though, I'd advise not to make 'most people are cowards' your campaign slogan.
    Fair point. But bear in mind I'm no saint. I include myself in this description. And, frankly, I'm too old to care what people think. I have spent the last few years telling people, pretty bluntly, what I think of them and their behaviour. Remarkably I have had no comeback. Maybe there's a lesson there somewhere.

    We need more "speaking truth to power".
    Oh I wasn't disagreeing. Even on minor levels I think we can all recognise bad behaviours that too often go unchallenged for reasons such as you elucidated. The most depressing one is when it will just take a minimal amount of effort to do something properly, but because of that minor additional hassle people let it slide. I'm as guilty of anyone in those situations of grumbling to a superior but nothing more. I'm too unimportant after all.

    Sigh, but we mustn't wallow I suppose, we must all keep trying even in small ways, try to retain some level of optimism. It's why at times I can almost admire the intensely loyal party faithfuls, even if too much of the intensity is rooted in hatred of the other lot. And that's certainly true of those too afraid to just quit - if they have such contempt for what their own side has become, but take no meaningful action, it's because of hate for something else, not values.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Roses are Red, Violets are Blue,
    Did you fight for ISIS,
    Cos we have a lovely 2 up 2 down for you.

    and please, do jump to the front of the queue.....
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    I'm not expecting the same quality meme content TBH, Momentum > Count Dankula, infowars etc.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615

    dots said:

    Churchill’s breaking of a miners strike has lingered long and bitter in left wing circles, to say Churchill is no hero of mine because of Tonypandy is completely fair enough.

    Jim Callaghan’s remark seems more inflammatory to me than how McD put it. In fact Callaghan’s remark, 68 years after the event, is itself revealing about the extent tonypandy tarnished views of Churchill in the Labour movement.

    Hmm. Attlee must have either not shared these misgivings or buried them in order to work with Churchill to beat Fascists.
    He buried them, due possibly to the graveness of the situation. But he did voice them as possible block to not supporting Churchill.

    Sending in troops with orders to shoot to alter course of a strike is fairly going to colour views as to whether someone is a hero or not, unless you don’t like any strikes and like idea of them stopped like that. Trump can learn from this Churchill geezer 🙃

    https://hinterlandgazette.com/2018/07/donald-trump-sparks-outrage-after-he-poses-winston-churchills-armchair.html
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006
    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    Nobody who keeps making these hints they might leave deserves sympathy or respect. It's not an easy decision for any of them to take, there's a lot of emotion in it, there's calculation of whether it would do more harm than good and all the rest. But enough is bloody enough. They leak their unhappiness, they bitch and moan, they whine constantly about how things are not as they desire. It's just too much. No, they are not obliged to take such grand action for our amusement or to satisfy our own desires for a split or realignment, but it's beyond a joke now.

    When an organisation's culture turns toxic, there are a number of human behaviours that you see over and over again. One of the most common and, possibly, the most toxic is cowardice - a failure to stand up for what is right, a failure to speak up, a failure to challenge, a failure to act when action was needed. Most people are cowards.

    They justify it in lots of ways: loyalty to colleagues, wanting to stay and fight and change from "within", not wanting to give up, thinking that someone else was doing something, it's not my responsibility, what can I do - I'm too unimportant, fear of the consequences, concern for their families etc etc. And all those reasons can seem justifiable and reasonable. But in the end people are rationalising their unwillingness to act, their cowardice.

    Most people aren't heroes, most people don't want to be heroes, most people don't want to stick out or speak up or be left out in the cold, outside the group, treated as snitches or as disloyal or as "traitors" to a group or a cause. Most of us are like this.

    Physical courage is admired. Moral courage is rarer and is not much admired. In theory maybe. But not in practice. Loyalty is valued. Little wonder that we get lots of huddling within the group and relatively few examples of moral courage.
    But those characteristics are present even if the organisation is not toxic. There isn’t anything wrong with fighting from within or sticking to your pay grade. About 70% of what May has done in the last two years a i disagree with. But that doesn’t mean it’s toxic. It’s still a best fit, and my part of the party had its go for some time.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    The contempt that I find widespread here and elsewhere for our political classes crosses Party, social class, and education. How should one express this in a way that is lawful and democratic?

    I just don't know.

    Put them against the wall - the revolution has come? ;)
  • dotsdots Posts: 615
    dots said:

    dots said:

    Churchill’s breaking of a miners strike has lingered long and bitter in left wing circles, to say Churchill is no hero of mine because of Tonypandy is completely fair enough.

    Jim Callaghan’s remark seems more inflammatory to me than how McD put it. In fact Callaghan’s remark, 68 years after the event, is itself revealing about the extent tonypandy tarnished views of Churchill in the Labour movement.

    Hmm. Attlee must have either not shared these misgivings or buried them in order to work with Churchill to beat Fascists.
    He buried them, due possibly to the graveness of the situation. But he did voice them as possible block to not supporting Churchill.

    Sending in troops with orders to shoot to alter course of a strike is fairly going to colour views as to whether someone is a hero or not, unless you don’t like any strikes and like idea of them stopped like that. Trump can learn from this Churchill geezer 🙃

    https://hinterlandgazette.com/2018/07/donald-trump-sparks-outrage-after-he-poses-winston-churchills-armchair.html
    Dots has a leather chair very similar to that one, and calls it Farting Chair. Try to sneak out the merest slither of wind and it echoes like a troll belch in the Mines of Moria, first stunning, and then emptying the room.

    Take another look at the picture...

    Don’t do it Donald, don’t do it.
  • notme2notme2 Posts: 1,006
    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    Nobody who keeps making these hints they might leave deserves sympathy or respect. It's not an easy decision for any of them to take, there's a lot of emotion in it, there's calculation of whether it would do more harm than good and all the rest. But enough is bloody enough. They leak their unhappiness, they bitch and moan, they whine constantly about how things are not as they desire. It's just too much. No, they are not obliged to take such grand action for our amusement or to satisfy our own desires for a split or realignment, but it's beyond a joke now.

    When an organisation's culture turns toxic, there are a number of human behaviours that you see over and over again. One of the most common and, possibly, the most toxic is cowardice - a failure to stand up for what is right, a failure to speak up, a failure to challenge, a failure to act when action was needed. Most people are cowards.

    They justify it in lots of ways: loyalty to colleagues, wanting to stay and fight and change from "within", not wanting to give up, thinking that someone else was doing something, it's not my responsibility, what can I do - I'm too unimportant, fear of the consequences, concern for their families etc etc. And all those reasons can seem justifiable and reasonable. But in the end people are rationalising their unwillingness to act, their cowardice.

    Most people aren't heroes, most people don't want to be heroes, most people don't want to stick out or speak up or be left out in the cold, outside the group, treated as snitches or as disloyal or as "traitors" to a group or a cause. Most of us are like this.

    Physical courage is admired. Moral courage is rarer and is not much admired. In theory maybe. But not in practice. Loyalty is valued. Little wonder that we get lots of huddling within the group and relatively few examples of moral courage.
    It's coming to the point where admitting you were an MP of the Brexit Parliament, 2017-20??, will be such a badge of shame you will never confess to it in public, It will be the opposite of the 70m members of the French Resistance.

    "What me? MP for Swindon in 2018? No, no no no, I was, uhm, a plumber. No, I mean a bricklayer. Yes. Bricklayer. Honest."
    Yet, how can you break with your family/friends/allies/colleagues?

    Moral courage requires you to be willing to be hated, to be seen as a traitor, to be a pariah.
    I'm struggling to think of a British politician I actively admire. Or even vaguely respect.

    We had this debate the other day. We are uniquely unblessed, at the worst possible moment.
    Rory Stewart. My former MP. Calm. thoughtful, rational.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    notme2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    Nobody who keeps making these hints they might leave deserves sympathy or respect. It's not an easy decision for any of them to take, there's a lot of emotion in it, there's calculation of whether it would do more harm than good and all the rest. But enough is bloody enough. They leak their unhappiness, they bitch and moan, they whine constantly about how things are not as they desire. It's just too much. No, they are not obliged to take such grand action for our amusement or to satisfy our own desires for a split or realignment, but it's beyond a joke now.

    When an organisation's culture turns toxic, there are a number of human behaviours that you see over and over again. One of the most common and, possibly, the most toxic is cowardice - a failure to stand up for what is right, a failure to speak up, a failure to challenge, a failure to act when action was needed. Most people are cowards.

    They justify it in lots of ways: loyalty to colleagues, wanting to stay and fight and change from "within", not wanting to give up, thinking that someone else was doing something, it's not my responsibility, what can I do - I'm too unimportant, fear of the consequences, concern for their families etc etc. And all those reasons can seem justifiable and reasonable. But in the end people are rationalising their unwillingness to act, their cowardice.

    Most people aren't heroes, most people don't want to be heroes, most people don't want to stick out or speak up or be left out in the cold, outside the group, treated as snitches or as disloyal or as "traitors" to a group or a cause. Most of us are like this.

    Physical courage is admired. Moral courage is rarer and is not much admired. In theory maybe. But not in practice. Loyalty is valued. Little wonder that we get lots of huddling within the group and relatively few examples of moral courage.
    But those characteristics are present even if the organisation is not toxic. There isn’t anything wrong with fighting from within or sticking to your pay grade.
    There is when it is toxic. You might see these behaviours to a lesser extent without it being toxic, but when it is endemic? At a point, they are no longer reasonable behaviours but excuses.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:



    They justify it in lots of ways: loyalty to colleagues, wanting to stay and fight and change from "within", not wanting to give up, thinking that someone else was doing something, it's not my responsibility, what can I do - I'm too unimportant, fear of the consequences, concern for their families etc etc. And all those reasons can seem justifiable and reasonable. But in the end people are rationalising their unwillingness to act, their cowardice.

    Most people aren't heroes, most people don't want to be heroes, most people don't want to stick out or speak up or be left out in the cold, outside the group, treated as snitches or as disloyal or as "traitors" to a group or a cause. Most of us are like this.

    Physical courage is admired. Moral courage is rarer and is not much admired. In theory maybe. But not in practice. Loyalty is valued. Little wonder that we get lots of huddling within the group and relatively few examples of moral courage.
    It's coming to the point where admitting you were an MP of the Brexit Parliament, 2017-20??, will be such a badge of shame you will never confess to it in public, It will be the opposite of the 70m members of the French Resistance.

    "What me? MP for Swindon in 2018? No, no no no, I was, uhm, a plumber. No, I mean a bricklayer. Yes. Bricklayer. Honest."
    Yet, how can you break with your family/friends/allies/colleagues?

    Moral courage requires you to be willing to be hated, to be seen as a traitor, to be a pariah.
    When I am asked this question during my talks my answer has always been that loyalty to colleagues is fine but when people behave badly, remaining loyal to them is misplaced loyalty. And it's not just misplaced. It harms you as well.

    And it has consequences for you because that bad behaviour of others damages your hard work, your integrity, your reputation, your good name. Your own self-respect, your own sense of what is right, your own internal conscience (that still small voice of calm) should make you realise that you harm yourself when you turn a blind eye or condone behaviour that is wrong. You will not remain unscathed. The bad smell that hangs around the wrongdoers will hang around you too.

    It's not easy. But if more people did it, then the insults of traitors and pariahs would have less force.

    If we value loyalty to a tribe above having a moral conscience, a sense of what is right and wrong, then the sort of behaviour exhibited by MPs is what we will get.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    SeanT said:

    The contempt that I find widespread here and elsewhere for our political classes crosses Party, social class, and education. How should one express this in a way that is lawful and democratic?

    I just don't know.

    Put them against the wall - the revolution has come? ;)
    We are on opposite sides of the Brexit debate, but I'm with you in the firing squad. Enough now.
    You seem to change sides on a random basis so i will put you down as a centrist. :D:D

    Perhaps the unifying factor in Brexit is both sides acquiring a visceral loathing of our politicians?
  • SeanT said:

    notme2 said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    Nobody who keeps making these hints they might leave deserves sympathy or respect. It's not an easy decision for any of them to take, there's a lot of emotion in it, there's calculation of whether it would do more harm than good and all the rest. But enough is bloody enough. They leak their unhappiness, they bitch and moan, they whine constantly about how things are not as they desire. It's just too much. No, they are not obliged to take such grand action for our amusement or to satisfy our own desires for a split or realignment, but it's beyond a joke now.

    When an organisation's culture turns toxic, there are a number of human behaviours that you

    Physical courage is admired. Moral courage is rarer and is not much admired. In theory maybe. But not in practice. Loyalty is valued. Little wonder that we get lots of huddling within the group and relatively few examples of moral courage.
    It's coming to the point where admitting you were an MP of the Brexit Parliament, 2017-20??, will be such a badge of shame you will never confess to it in public, It will be the opposite of the 70m members of the French Resistance.

    "What me? MP for Swindon in 2018? No, no no no, I was, uhm, a plumber. No, I mean a bricklayer. Yes. Bricklayer. Honest."
    Yet, how can you break with your family/friends/allies/colleagues?

    Moral courage requires you to be willing to be hated, to be seen as a traitor, to be a pariah.
    I'm struggling to think of a British politician I actively admire. Or even vaguely respect.

    We had this debate the other day. We are uniquely unblessed, at the worst possible moment.
    Rory Stewart. My former MP. Calm. thoughtful, rational.
    Good call. He does seem relatively sane, and clever, and has a bit of backbone.
    :+1:

    He seems to have come to us from a lost age of decent politicians doing their best for the nation.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    When an organisation's culture turns toxic, there are a number of human behaviours that you see over and over again. One of the most common and, possibly, the most toxic is cowardice - a failure to stand up for what is right, a failure to speak up, a failure to challenge, a failure to act when action was needed. Most people are cowards.

    They justify it in lots of ways: loyalty to colleagues, wanting to stay and fight and change from "within", not wanting to give up, thinking that someone else was doing something, it's not my responsibility, what can I do - I'm too unimportant, fear of the consequences, concern for their families etc etc. And all those reasons can seem justifiable and reasonable. But in the end people are rationalising their unwillingness to act, their cowardice.

    Most people aren't heroes, most people don't want to be heroes, most people don't want to stick out or speak up or be left out in the cold, outside the group, treated as snitches or as disloyal or as "traitors" to a group or a cause. Most of us are like this.

    Physical courage is admired. Moral courage is rarer and is not much admired. In theory maybe. But not in practice. Loyalty is valued. Little wonder that we get lots of huddling within the group and relatively few examples of moral courage.
    It's coming to the point where admitting you were an MP of the Brexit Parliament, 2017-20??, will be such a badge of shame you will never confess to it in public, It will be the opposite of the 70m members of the French Resistance.

    "What me? MP for Swindon in 2018? No, no no no, I was, uhm, a plumber. No, I mean a bricklayer. Yes. Bricklayer. Honest."
    Yet, how can you break with your family/friends/allies/colleagues?

    Moral courage requires you to be willing to be hated, to be seen as a traitor, to be a pariah.
    I'm struggling to think of a British politician I actively admire. Or even vaguely respect.

    We had this debate the other day. We are uniquely unblessed, at the worst possible moment.
    Tracey Crouch behaved well over FBOTs. Tobias Ellwood acted with great courage and compassion trying to save the policeman killed in the Commons (though that was not politics). Rory Stewart has tried to approach Brexit thoughtfully.

    The rest seem stuck in a quagmire and are rapidly sinking, bringing the rest of us down with them.

    Oh well, 42 days stockpiling to go..........
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,005
    Anyone been able to decipher these cryptic Brexiteer words?

    'Olly Robbins is a draughts player in a chess world'

    It doesn't help that I've forgotten how to play draughts. What could this possibly mean?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    Which is the same deal - the Withdrawal Treaty.

    In order to leave the EU we have to sign it.

    So one has to assume that we will.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959
    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    All those hoping that ISIS fighers and WAGS would be getting charged with some sort of crime...

    It has emerged that the vast majority of Islamist fighters returning to the UK from Syria have been placed on “secretive” government rehabilitation schemes rather than be prosecuted. Only 1 in 10 have been prosecuted.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/02/14/us-plans-jail-british-jihadis-guantanamo-getting-fed-up-uks/

    I just,,,, despair. We should be throwing them in dungeons. Solitary confinement for life. No appeal. Instead they either walk free, or they get "council accommodation" and a bit of therapy. These are men who burned people alive, and gloried in it. Exulted.

    We have lost all sense of moral direction. We are spineless. We are mules led by maggots. How I loathe this effete, repulsive, liberal elite that seeks to govern us. Get rid of them all. GET RID.
    Just ask the Kurds to shoot them. Simple, effective, and just.
    I have never reviled a group of people the way I revile the British ruling-and-chattering classes right now. They betray us all, daily. I would imprison each and every one in South Georgia. All they care about is telling each other how humane they are, unlike the evil proles.
    But not Grytviken. That's too nice for them. And they shouldn't be allowed to interrupt Shackleton's repose.

    Send them to the old whaling station at Stromness. That place still has its asbestos.

    http://tinyurl.com/y65tm8tu
  • Interesting that Peston seems to think that not only will the British not get a significant extension to faff around, they also won't get one for a referendum.
  • Interesting that Peston seems to think that not only will the British not get a significant extension to faff around, they also won't get one for a referendum.

    Get your money on those options then....
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,005
    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    All those hoping that ISIS fighers and WAGS would be getting charged with some sort of crime...

    It has emerged that the vast majority of Islamist fighters returning to the UK from Syria have been placed on “secretive” government rehabilitation schemes rather than be prosecuted. Only 1 in 10 have been prosecuted.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/02/14/us-plans-jail-british-jihadis-guantanamo-getting-fed-up-uks/

    I just,,,, despair. We should be throwing them in dungeons. Solitary confinement for life. No appeal. Instead they either walk free, or they get "council accommodation" and a bit of therapy. These are men who burned people alive, and gloried in it. Exulted.

    We have lost all sense of moral direction. We are spineless. We are mules led by maggots. How I loathe this effete, repulsive, liberal elite that seeks to govern us. Get rid of them all. GET RID.
    Just ask the Kurds to shoot them. Simple, effective, and just.
    I have never reviled a group of people the way I revile the British ruling-and-chattering classes right now. They betray us all, daily. I would imprison each and every one in South Georgia. All they care about is telling each other how humane they are, unlike the evil proles.
    I thought some of your best friends were part of the ruling and chattering classes?

    Anyway I'm hoping my property purchase goes through tomorrow. Short of some surprising overnight news I assume I'm safe.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959
    SeanT said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    Nobody who keeps making these hints they might leave deserves sympathy or respect. It's not an easy decision for any of them to take, there's a lot of emotion in it, there's calculation of whether it would do more harm than good and all the rest. But enough is bloody enough. They leak their unhappiness, they bitch and moan, they whine constantly about how things are not as they desire. It's just too much. No, they are not obliged to take such grand action for our amusement or to satisfy our own desires for a split or realignment, but it's beyond a joke now.

    When an organisation's culture turns toxic, there are a number of human behaviours that you see over and over again. One of the most common and, possibly, the most toxic is cowardice - a failure to stand up for what is right, a failure to speak up, a failure to challenge, a failure to act when action was needed. Most people are cowards.

    They justify it in lots of ways: loyalty to colleagues, wanting to stay and fight and change from "within", not wanting to give up, thinking that someone else was doing something, it's not my responsibility, what can I do - I'm too unimportant, fear of the consequences, concern for their families etc etc. And all those reasons can seem justifiable and reasonable. But in the end people are rationalising their unwillingness to act, their cowardice.

    Most people aren't heroes, most people don't want to be heroes, most people don't want to stick out or speak up or be left out in the cold, outside the group, treated as snitches or as disloyal or as "traitors" to a group or a cause. Most of us are like this.

    Physical courage is admired. Moral courage is rarer and is not much admired. In theory maybe. But not in practice. Loyalty is valued. Little wonder that we get lots of huddling within the group and relatively few examples of moral courage.
    It's coming to the point where admitting you were an MP of the Brexit Parliament, 2017-20??, will be such a badge of shame you will never confess to it in public, It will be the opposite of the 70m members of the French Resistance.

    "What me? MP for Swindon in 2018? No, no no no, I was, uhm, a plumber. No, I mean a bricklayer. Yes. Bricklayer. Honest."
    As I said this morning, weve had the Long Parliament, the Short Parliament - this should be known as the Mad Parliament.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Interesting that Peston seems to think that not only will the British not get a significant extension to faff around, they also won't get one for a referendum.

    I suspect that if Remain were an option on the referendum they would grant an extension.

    But, yes, I can see why they might think that. Suppose people voted for May's Deal in a referendum. They couldn't be certain that this current Parliament wouldn't still faff around arguing about implementing that. So we've become like Italy - in our politics anyway - just on the point of our departure.

    So the only thing left that does not require EU agreement is...... revoking Art. 50.

    And since that seems unlikely No Deal is - and has been for a while - the racing certainty.

    Anyway night all.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    kinabalu said:

    Which is the same deal - the Withdrawal Treaty.

    In order to leave the EU we have to sign it.

    So one has to assume that we will.
    Why? Half of parliament at least is actively working to make sure we don't leave (though far fewer will admit to that at present). They've had various deadlines of when they would 'have' to make a decision and they keep pushing it back because they simply do not want to do certain things, it seems highly optimistic to assume they would therefore do something sensible if they were finally convinced they had to make a decision.

    Interesting that Peston seems to think that not only will the British not get a significant extension to faff around, they also won't get one for a referendum.

    Good. I hardly think the EU have been helping their own cause in all this, but we are where we are and if they are not going to budge on their own red lines and we are so scared that we want to keep hitting the Brexit snooze button, they should smash the alarm clock and force us to wake up, one way or another.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615
    Cyclefree said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    When an organisation's culture turns toxic, there are a number of human behaviours that you see over and over again. One of the most common and, possibly, the most toxic is cowardice - a failure to stand up for what is right, a failure to speak up, a failure to challenge, a failure to act when action was needed. Most people are cowards.

    They justify it in lots of ways: loyalty to colleagues, wanting to stay and fight and change from "within", not wanting to give up, thinking that someone else was doing something, it's not my responsibility, what can I do - I'm too unimportant, fear of the consequences, concern for their families etc etc. And all those reasons can seem justifiable and reasonable. But in the end people are rationalising their unwillingness to act, their cowardice.

    Most people aren't heroes, most people don't want to be heroes, most people don't want to stick out or speak up or be left out in the cold, outside the group, treated as snitches or as disloyal or as "traitors" to a group or a cause. Most of us are like this.

    Physical courage is admired. Moral courage is rarer and is not much admired. In theory maybe. But not in practice. Loyalty is valued. Little wonder that we get lots of huddling within the group and relatively few examples of moral courage.
    It's coming to the point where admitting you were an MP of the Brexit Parliament, 2017-20??, will be such a badge of shame you will never confess to it in public, It will be the opposite of the 70m members of the French Resistance.

    "What me? MP for Swindon in 2018? No, no no no, I was, uhm, a plumber. No, I mean a bricklayer. Yes. Bricklayer. Honest."
    Yet, how can you break with your family/friends/allies/colleagues?

    Moral courage requires you to be willing to be hated, to be seen as a traitor, to be a pariah.
    I'm struggling to think of a British politician I actively admire. Or even vaguely respect.

    We had this debate the other day. We are uniquely unblessed, at the worst possible moment.
    Tracey Crouch behaved well over FBOTs. Tobias Ellwood acted with great courage and compassion trying to save the policeman killed in the Commons (though that was not politics). Rory Stewart has tried to approach Brexit thoughtfully.

    The rest seem stuck in a quagmire and are rapidly sinking, bringing the rest of us down with them.

    Oh well, 42 days stockpiling to go..........
    Rory is the best thing about the Tories at the moment. Awesomely convincing communicator.
    Will any promises he makes be found out over time though as his career inevitably progresses? Also he looks like the villain not hero from a Dickensian novel.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    SeanT said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    Nobody who keeps making these hints they might leave deserves sympathy or respect. It's not an easy decision for any of them to take, there's a lot of emotion in it, there's calculation of whether it would do more harm than good and all the rest. But enough is bloody enough. They leak their unhappiness, they bitch and moan, they whine constantly about how things are not as they desire. It's just too much. No, they are not obliged to take such grand action for our amusement or to satisfy our own desires for a split or realignment, but it's beyond a joke now.

    When an organisation's culture turns toxic, there are a number of human behaviours that you see over and over again. One of the most common and, possibly, the most toxic is cowardice - a failure to stand up for what is right, a failure to speak up, a failure to challenge, a failure to act when action was needed. Most people are cowards.

    They justify it in lots of ways: loyalty to colleagues, wanting to stay and fight and change from "within", not wanting to give up, thinking that someone else was doing something, it's not my responsibility, what can I do - I'm too unimportant, fear of the consequences, concern for their families etc etc. And all those reasons can seem justifiable and reasonable. But in the end people are rationalising their unwillingness to act, their cowardice.

    Most people aren't heroes, most people don't want to be heroes, most people don't want to stick out or speak up or be left out in the cold, outside the group, treated as snitches or as disloyal or as "traitors" to a group or a cause. Most of us are like this.

    Physical courage is admired. Moral courage is rarer and is not much admired. In theory maybe. But not in practice. Loyalty is valued. Little wonder that we get lots of huddling within the group and relatively few examples of moral courage.
    It's coming to the point where admitting you were an MP of the Brexit Parliament, 2017-20??, will be such a badge of shame you will never confess to it in public, It will be the opposite of the 70m members of the French Resistance.

    "What me? MP for Swindon in 2018? No, no no no, I was, uhm, a plumber. No, I mean a bricklayer. Yes. Bricklayer. Honest."
    As I said this morning, weve had the Long Parliament, the Short Parliament - this should be known as the Mad Parliament.
    The Parliament of Dunces
  • asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,276
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    All those hoping that ISIS fighers and WAGS would be getting charged with some sort of crime...

    It has emerged that the vast majority of Islamist fighters returning to the UK from Syria have been placed on “secretive” government rehabilitation schemes rather than be prosecuted. Only 1 in 10 have been prosecuted.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/02/14/us-plans-jail-british-jihadis-guantanamo-getting-fed-up-uks/

    I just,,,, despair. We should be throwing them in dungeons. Solitary confinement for life. No appeal. Instead they either walk free, or they get "council accommodation" and a bit of therapy. These are men who burned people alive, and gloried in it. Exulted.

    We have lost all sense of moral direction. We are spineless. We are mules led by maggots. How I loathe this effete, repulsive, liberal elite that seeks to govern us. Get rid of them all. GET RID.
    Just ask the Kurds to shoot them. Simple, effective, and just.
    I have never reviled a group of people the way I revile the British ruling-and-chattering classes right now. They betray us all, daily. I would imprison each and every one in South Georgia. All they care about is telling each other how humane they are, unlike the evil proles.
    But not Grytviken. That's too nice for them. And they shouldn't be allowed to interrupt Shackleton's repose.

    Send them to the old whaling station at Stromness. That place still has its asbestos.

    http://tinyurl.com/y65tm8tu
    ooh yes. Perfectly dystopian.

    I'm going to Antarctica, for the first time ever, in November, for The Times. I think we are stopping at South Georgia. I am impossibly excited. I have heard it is spectacularly beautiful, albeit bleak and of course Shackleton's story is just incredible. Have you been?

    Also I am an absolute fan of


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Worst_Journey_in_the_World

    One of the greatest books about real-life human endurance ever written.
    Sounds fantastic, always wanted to go to South Georgia. Spent 18 months in Falklands but the chance to make it down to SG never quite came round
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    All those hoping that ISIS fighers and WAGS would be getting charged with some sort of crime...

    It has emerged that the vast majority of Islamist fighters returning to the UK from Syria have been placed on “secretive” government rehabilitation schemes rather than be prosecuted. Only 1 in 10 have been prosecuted.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/02/14/us-plans-jail-british-jihadis-guantanamo-getting-fed-up-uks/

    I just,,,, despair. We should be throwing them in dungeons. Solitary confinement for life. No appeal. Instead they either walk free, or they get "council accommodation" and a bit of therapy. These are men who burned people alive, and gloried in it. Exulted.

    We have lost all sense of moral direction. We are spineless. We are mules led by maggots. How I loathe this effete, repulsive, liberal elite that seeks to govern us. Get rid of them all. GET RID.
    Just ask the Kurds to shoot them. Simple, effective, and just.
    I have never reviled a group of people the way I revile the British ruling-and-chattering classes right now. They betray us all, daily. I would imprison each and every one in South Georgia. All they care about is telling each other how humane they are, unlike the evil proles.
    But not Grytviken. That's too nice for them. And they shouldn't be allowed to interrupt Shackleton's repose.

    Send them to the old whaling station at Stromness. That place still has its asbestos.

    http://tinyurl.com/y65tm8tu
    ooh yes. Perfectly dystopian.

    I'm going to Antarctica, for the first time ever, in November, for The Times. I think we are stopping at South Georgia. I am impossibly excited. I have heard it is spectacularly beautiful, albeit bleak and of course Shackleton's story is just incredible. Have you been?

    Also I am an absolute fan of


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Worst_Journey_in_the_World

    One of the greatest books about real-life human endurance ever written.
    I have been.

    It is indeed spectacular. A terrifying beauty at the end of the world. Enjoy. Take a decent whisky with you, to drink over Shackleton's grave. That's the tradition.

    Stromness was where Shackleton emerged after walking over the glacier. You can still see the station manger's house where he had a bath and a shave. They had such massive beards they were utterly unrecogniseable until then.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    dots said:

    Cyclefree said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    It's coming to the point where admitting you were an MP of the Brexit Parliament, 2017-20??, will be such a badge of shame you will never confess to it in public, It will be the opposite of the 70m members of the French Resistance.

    "What me? MP for Swindon in 2018? No, no no no, I was, uhm, a plumber. No, I mean a bricklayer. Yes. Bricklayer. Honest."
    Yet, how can you break with your family/friends/allies/colleagues?

    Moral courage requires you to be willing to be hated, to be seen as a traitor, to be a pariah.
    I'm struggling to think of a British politician I actively admire. Or even vaguely respect.

    We had this debate the other day. We are uniquely unblessed, at the worst possible moment.
    Tracey Crouch behaved well over FBOTs. Tobias Ellwood acted with great courage and compassion trying to save the policeman killed in the Commons (though that was not politics). Rory Stewart has tried to approach Brexit thoughtfully.

    The rest seem stuck in a quagmire and are rapidly sinking, bringing the rest of us down with them.

    Oh well, 42 days stockpiling to go..........
    Rory is the best thing about the Tories at the moment. Awesomely convincing communicator.
    Will any promises he makes be found out over time though as his career inevitably progresses? Also he looks like the villain not hero from a Dickensian novel.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b069c2f6/

    This programme on him is very interesting. I think he is too much of a loner to make it to the very top. But he has impressed in recent weeks in a way that very few of his colleagues have done. He'll get his reward in Heaven, I expect.
  • Cyclefree said:

    dots said:

    Cyclefree said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    It's coming to the point where admitting you were an MP of the Brexit Parliament, 2017-20??, will be such a badge of shame you will never confess to it in public, It will be the opposite of the 70m members of the French Resistance.

    "What me? MP for Swindon in 2018? No, no no no, I was, uhm, a plumber. No, I mean a bricklayer. Yes. Bricklayer. Honest."
    Yet, how can you break with your family/friends/allies/colleagues?

    Moral courage requires you to be willing to be hated, to be seen as a traitor, to be a pariah.
    I'm struggling to think of a British politician I actively admire. Or even vaguely respect.

    We had this debate the other day. We are uniquely unblessed, at the worst possible moment.
    Tracey Crouch behaved well over FBOTs. Tobias Ellwood acted with great courage and compassion trying to save the policeman killed in the Commons (though that was not politics). Rory Stewart has tried to approach Brexit thoughtfully.

    The rest seem stuck in a quagmire and are rapidly sinking, bringing the rest of us down with them.

    Oh well, 42 days stockpiling to go..........
    Rory is the best thing about the Tories at the moment. Awesomely convincing communicator.
    Will any promises he makes be found out over time though as his career inevitably progresses? Also he looks like the villain not hero from a Dickensian novel.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b069c2f6/

    This programme on him is very interesting. I think he is too much of a loner to make it to the very top. But he has impressed in recent weeks in a way that very few of his colleagues have done. He'll get his reward in Heaven, I expect.
    Heath was a loner.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    SeanT said:

    Interesting that Peston seems to think that not only will the British not get a significant extension to faff around, they also won't get one for a referendum.

    Get your money on those options then....
    Yeah I think that's bollocks. Europe is heading for a nasty recession, Brexit - deal or no deal - is gonna make this worse for everyone. If we asked for an extension, for a referendum, my guess is the EU would eagerly grant it. Why not? What have they got to lose? If we vote Leave again, well we were leaving anyway, in some chaos, so what. It we vote Remain, it is a huge boost for the EU, and the ornery-but-humbled Brits would have to shut up for a decade.
    This is why I think the EU strategy for Brexit has been so dumb. They should have very quickly locked in their trade surplus with a mutually benefical deal. Then they should have locked in political co-operation. The UK is a permanent member of the UN, member of the G7 and G20 and useful as an ally against Trump.

    There is an article on the LSE blogs today from the Chief Economist at Allianz and he has said that the uncertainty caused by the EU not getting the trade sorted early has meant that the EU27 over the past 2 years has lost 60bill of exports.

    If they continue this then the RoW will continue to eat into their exports to the UK.

    Dumb and Dumber run the EU.
  • SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    All those hoping that ISIS fighers and WAGS would be getting charged with some sort of crime...

    It has emerged that the vast majority of Islamist fighters returning to the UK from Syria have been placed on “secretive” government rehabilitation schemes rather than be prosecuted. Only 1 in 10 have been prosecuted.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/02/14/us-plans-jail-british-jihadis-guantanamo-getting-fed-up-uks/

    I just,,,, despair. We should be throwing them in dungeons. Solitary confinement for life. No appeal. Instead they either walk free, or they get "council accommodation" and a bit of therapy. These are men who burned people alive, and gloried in it. Exulted.

    We have lost all sense of moral direction. We are spineless. We are mules led by maggots. How I loathe this effete, repulsive, liberal elite that seeks to govern us. Get rid of them all. GET RID.
    Just ask the Kurds to shoot them. Simple, effective, and just.
    I have never reviled a group of people the way I revile the British ruling-and-chattering classes right now. They betray us all, daily. I would imprison each and every one in South Georgia. All they care about is telling each other how humane they are, unlike the evil proles.
    But not Grytviken. That's too nice for them. And they shouldn't be allowed to interrupt Shackleton's repose.

    Send them to the old whaling station at Stromness. That place still has its asbestos.

    http://tinyurl.com/y65tm8tu
    ooh yes. Perfectly dystopian.

    I'm going to Antarctica, for the first time ever, in November, for The Times. I think we are stopping at South Georgia. I am impossibly excited. I have heard it is spectacularly beautiful, albeit bleak and of course Shackleton's story is just incredible. Have you been?

    Also I am an absolute fan of


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Worst_Journey_in_the_World

    One of the greatest books about real-life human endurance ever written.
    :+1: to Cherry-Garrard's book.

    We don't make em like we used to...
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,545
    edited February 2019
    SeanT said:

    Interesting that Peston seems to think that not only will the British not get a significant extension to faff around, they also won't get one for a referendum.

    Get your money on those options then....
    Yeah I think that's bollocks. Europe is heading for a nasty recession, Brexit - deal or no deal - is gonna make this worse for everyone. If we asked for an extension, for a referendum, my guess is the EU would eagerly grant it. Why not? What have they got to lose? If we vote Leave again, well we were leaving anyway, in some chaos, so what. It we vote Remain, it is a huge boost for the EU, and the ornery-but-humbled Brits would have to shut up for a decade.
    Agree with Sean. I reckon we get any extension we ask for. Because if they say no, I reckon there will be such a backlash here that it'll be impossible to avoid no deal and a wave of patriotic fervour will mean a huge majority blaming it on the EU. Would create a focus to take it all out on Brussels.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959

    SeanT said:

    Interesting that Peston seems to think that not only will the British not get a significant extension to faff around, they also won't get one for a referendum.

    Get your money on those options then....
    Yeah I think that's bollocks. Europe is heading for a nasty recession, Brexit - deal or no deal - is gonna make this worse for everyone. If we asked for an extension, for a referendum, my guess is the EU would eagerly grant it. Why not? What have they got to lose? If we vote Leave again, well we were leaving anyway, in some chaos, so what. It we vote Remain, it is a huge boost for the EU, and the ornery-but-humbled Brits would have to shut up for a decade.
    This is why I think the EU strategy for Brexit has been so dumb. They should have very quickly locked in their trade surplus with a mutually benefical deal. Then they should have locked in political co-operation. The UK is a permanent member of the UN, member of the G7 and G20 and useful as an ally against Trump.

    There is an article on the LSE blogs today from the Chief Economist at Allianz and he has said that the uncertainty caused by the EU not getting the trade sorted early has meant that the EU27 over the past 2 years has lost 60bill of exports.

    If they continue this then the RoW will continue to eat into their exports to the UK.

    Dumb and Dumber run the EU.
    Interesting insight.

    History will not be kind on the EU's position over Brexit. Not that it will adversely affect any of their players. The are untouchable. Which is why we were right to get the fuck out.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,880
    dots said:



    Rory is the best thing about the Tories at the moment. Awesomely convincing communicator.
    Will any promises he makes be found out over time though as his career inevitably progresses? Also he looks like the villain not hero from a Dickensian novel.

    Nobody who has had first hand experience of his work in Iraq will ever be a fan of the jug eared nerd.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263
    SeanT said:

    As I see it there are four main factions in the Commons:

    Tory ERG-ers: lunatic hooligans who seem hellbent on an impossible Brexit to the extent of sabotaging Brexit
    Tory Remainers and loyalists: pathetic bunch of bed-wetters who are frightened of Jacob Rees Mogg and also incapable of organising a handjob in Bangkok
    Labour Remainers: helpless, flailing cowards, who elected a leader they all loathe
    Labour Corbynites: sinister Trots, eerie anti-Semites, and active traitors

    So that's great. Apart from them we have smaller factions: e.g. insane Protestant Ulster ranters, Catholic UIster revolutionaries who refuse to take their seats, a significant number of Scots and Welsh who want to destroy the country, and the Lib Dems, who can't remember why they exist.

    Everything Is Going To Be Fine.

    I don't agree with most of this, but I must admit it made me laugh.
  • Trump has been piling on the pounds apparently, now officially a fatty mcfatty.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47243351
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959

    Trump has been piling on the pounds apparently, now officially a fatty mcfatty.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47243351

    This is just so Trump!

    "During his campaign, he produced a letter that said he would be the "healthiest individual ever elected", but the doctor named as the author later said Mr Trump had written the letter himself."
  • These Russian site-seers have terrible luck when it comes to going on day trips to foreign countries exactly at the same time VIPs drop down dead....


    In February 2015, Fedotov made his first trip to Bulgaria. On 15 February 2015 he flew from Moscow to Belgrade in neighboring Serbia. On the next day he traveled on to Bulgaria, and stayed there until February 22, when he flew back from Sofia to Moscow.

    His second trip, which was previously reported by Bellingcat, was in April 2015. He landed in the seaside resort of Burgas on a direct flight from Moscow on 24 April 2015. While he had bought a return flight from Sofia to Moscow on 30 April 2015, he did not use that ticket. Instead, on the evening of April 28 at 20:20, he flew from Sofia to Istanbul, where he bought an onward ticket to Moscow that same night.

    It was earlier that same day, April 28, that the Bulgarian arms manufacturer and trader Emilian Gebrev collapsed during a dinner event with his trading partners from Poland at an upscale Sofia restaurant.

    https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2019/02/14/third-suspect-in-skripal-poisoning-identified-as-denis-sergeev-high-ranking-gru-officer/
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Dura_Ace said:

    dots said:



    Rory is the best thing about the Tories at the moment. Awesomely convincing communicator.
    Will any promises he makes be found out over time though as his career inevitably progresses? Also he looks like the villain not hero from a Dickensian novel.

    Nobody who has had first hand experience of his work in Iraq will ever be a fan of the jug eared nerd.
    A small subset of voters, that.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    SeanT said:

    Interesting that Peston seems to think that not only will the British not get a significant extension to faff around, they also won't get one for a referendum.

    Get your money on those options then....
    Yeah I think that's bollocks. Europe is heading for a nasty recession, Brexit - deal or no deal - is gonna make this worse for everyone. If we asked for an extension, for a referendum, my guess is the EU would eagerly grant it. Why not? What have they got to lose? If we vote Leave again, well we were leaving anyway, in some chaos, so what. It we vote Remain, it is a huge boost for the EU, and the ornery-but-humbled Brits would have to shut up for a decade.
    This is why I think the EU strategy for Brexit has been so dumb. They should have very quickly locked in their trade surplus with a mutually benefical deal. Then they should have locked in political co-operation. The UK is a permanent member of the UN, member of the G7 and G20 and useful as an ally against Trump.

    There is an article on the LSE blogs today from the Chief Economist at Allianz and he has said that the uncertainty caused by the EU not getting the trade sorted early has meant that the EU27 over the past 2 years has lost 60bill of exports.

    If they continue this then the RoW will continue to eat into their exports to the UK.

    Dumb and Dumber run the EU.
    Interesting insight.

    History will not be kind on the EU's position over Brexit. Not that it will adversely affect any of their players. The are untouchable. Which is why we were right to get the fuck out.
    They have prioritised politics, and ensuring we are not happy. We've been worse, but they've not been smart. And being right or not doesn't matter anymore than who started it - it's outcomes that matter.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233
    tpfkar said:

    SeanT said:

    Interesting that Peston seems to think that not only will the British not get a significant extension to faff around, they also won't get one for a referendum.

    Get your money on those options then....
    Yeah I think that's bollocks. Europe is heading for a nasty recession, Brexit - deal or no deal - is gonna make this worse for everyone. If we asked for an extension, for a referendum, my guess is the EU would eagerly grant it. Why not? What have they got to lose? If we vote Leave again, well we were leaving anyway, in some chaos, so what. It we vote Remain, it is a huge boost for the EU, and the ornery-but-humbled Brits would have to shut up for a decade.
    Agree with Sean. I reckon we get any extension we ask for. Because if they say no, I reckon there will be such a backlash here that it'll be impossible to avoid no deal and a wave of patriotic fervour will mean a huge majority blaming it on the EU. Would create a focus to take it all out on Brussels.
    I'm sure it will. I'm sure every Leaver in the UK will blame the EU. Because every Leaver in the UK blames the EU for everything, everytime, regardless of reason. It's a conditioned reflex at this point.

  • Trump has been piling on the pounds apparently, now officially a fatty mcfatty.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47243351

    If he survives Mueller and everything else and makes it to like 3 weeks before the end of his term then drops down dead from a coronary and makes me lose my bet I'm going to be most displeased.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233

    SeanT said:

    Interesting that Peston seems to think that not only will the British not get a significant extension to faff around, they also won't get one for a referendum.

    Get your money on those options then....
    Yeah I think that's bollocks. Europe is heading for a nasty recession, Brexit - deal or no deal - is gonna make this worse for everyone. If we asked for an extension, for a referendum, my guess is the EU would eagerly grant it. Why not? What have they got to lose? If we vote Leave again, well we were leaving anyway, in some chaos, so what. It we vote Remain, it is a huge boost for the EU, and the ornery-but-humbled Brits would have to shut up for a decade.
    This is why I think the EU strategy for Brexit has been so dumb. They should have very quickly locked in their trade surplus with a mutually benefical deal. Then they should have locked in political co-operation. The UK is a permanent member of the UN, member of the G7 and G20 and useful as an ally against Trump.

    There is an article on the LSE blogs today from the Chief Economist at Allianz and he has said that the uncertainty caused by the EU not getting the trade sorted early has meant that the EU27 over the past 2 years has lost 60bill of exports.

    If they continue this then the RoW will continue to eat into their exports to the UK.

    Dumb and Dumber run the EU.
    Total EU exports (2017) are about 5.7 trillion dollars per year. If UK share of that is 440 billion, then EU27 exports is around 5.2 trillion, yes? Let's round down a bit cos my head hurts: 5 trillion dollars per year. So over the two-year period the EU27 exports are 10 trillion dollars. So if it loses 60 billion (you didn't say which unit but there's bugger all difference at this point, so let's go with dollars), that's 60 billion/10 trillion, or (6x10^10)/(1x10^13) = 6/10^3 = 0.006. In percentage terms that's 0.6%.

    So over a two year period their exports have decreased by 0.6% due to Brexit uncertainty.

    Hmmm.

    [http://www.worldstopexports.com/top-european-export-countries/ ]
    [Any stupid mistakes I've made, point them out]
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233

    Trump has been piling on the pounds apparently, now officially a fatty mcfatty.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47243351

    If he survives Mueller and everything else and makes it to like 3 weeks before the end of his term then drops down dead from a coronary and makes me lose my bet I'm going to be most displeased.
    What's the bet?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    viewcode said:

    SeanT said:

    Interesting that Peston seems to think that not only will the British not get a significant extension to faff around, they also won't get one for a referendum.

    Get your money on those options then....
    Yeah I think that's bollocks. Europe is heading for a nasty recession, Brexit - deal or no deal - is gonna make this worse for everyone. If we asked for an extension, for a referendum, my guess is the EU would eagerly grant it. Why not? What have they got to lose? If we vote Leave again, well we were leaving anyway, in some chaos, so what. It we vote Remain, it is a huge boost for the EU, and the ornery-but-humbled Brits would have to shut up for a decade.
    This is why I think the EU strategy for Brexit has been so dumb. They should have very quickly locked in their trade surplus with a mutually benefical deal. Then they should have locked in political co-operation. The UK is a permanent member of the UN, member of the G7 and G20 and useful as an ally against Trump.

    There is an article on the LSE blogs today from the Chief Economist at Allianz and he has said that the uncertainty caused by the EU not getting the trade sorted early has meant that the EU27 over the past 2 years has lost 60bill of exports.

    If they continue this then the RoW will continue to eat into their exports to the UK.

    Dumb and Dumber run the EU.
    Total EU exports (2017) are about 5.7 trillion dollars per year. If UK share of that is 440 billion, then EU27 exports is around 5.2 trillion, yes? Let's round down a bit cos my head hurts: 5 trillion dollars per year. So over the two-year period the EU27 exports are 10 trillion dollars. So if it loses 60 billion (you didn't say which unit but there's bugger all difference at this point, so let's go with dollars), that's 60 billion/10 trillion, or (6x10^10)/(1x10^13) = 6/10^3 = 0.006. In percentage terms that's 0.6%.

    So over a two year period their exports have decreased by 0.6% due to Brexit uncertainty.

    Hmmm.

    [http://www.worldstopexports.com/top-european-export-countries/ ]
    [Any stupid mistakes I've made, point them out]
    That's fascinating.

    The UK is 15% of the EU's GDP, but only 8% of its exports.

    That's a clear sign - to me at least - that the UK's economy is unsustainable. Simply, we need to divert economic output away from consumers, and towards - errr - foreigners. That is going to be extremely painful.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233
    rcs1000 said:

    viewcode said:

    SeanT said:

    Interesting that Peston seems to think that not only will the British not get a significant extension to faff around, they also won't get one for a referendum.

    Get your money on those options then....
    Yeah I think that's bollocks. Europe is heading for a nasty recession, Brexit - deal or no deal - is gonna make this worse for everyone. If we asked for an extension, for a referendum, my guess is the EU would eagerly grant it. Why not? What have they got to lose? If we vote Leave again, well we were leaving anyway, in some chaos, so what. It we vote Remain, it is a huge boost for the EU, and the ornery-but-humbled Brits would have to shut up for a decade.
    This is why I think the EU strategy for Brexit has been so dumb. They should have very quickly locked in their trade surplus with a mutually benefical deal. Then they should have locked in political co-operation. The UK is a permanent member of the UN, member of the G7 and G20 and useful as an ally against Trump.

    There is an article on the LSE blogs today from the Chief Economist at Allianz and he has said that the uncertainty caused by the EU not getting the trade sorted early has meant that the EU27 over the past 2 years has lost 60bill of exports.

    If they continue this then the RoW will continue to eat into their exports to the UK.

    Dumb and Dumber run the EU.
    Total EU exports (2017) are about 5.7 trillion dollars per year. If UK share of that is 440 billion, then EU27 exports is around 5.2 trillion, yes? Let's round down a bit cos my head hurts: 5 trillion dollars per year. So over the two-year period the EU27 exports are 10 trillion dollars. So if it loses 60 billion (you didn't say which unit but there's bugger all difference at this point, so let's go with dollars), that's 60 billion/10 trillion, or (6x10^10)/(1x10^13) = 6/10^3 = 0.006. In percentage terms that's 0.6%.

    So over a two year period their exports have decreased by 0.6% due to Brexit uncertainty.

    Hmmm.

    [http://www.worldstopexports.com/top-european-export-countries/ ]
    [Any stupid mistakes I've made, point them out]
    That's fascinating.

    The UK is 15% of the EU's GDP, but only 8% of its exports.

    That's a clear sign - to me at least - that the UK's economy is unsustainable. Simply, we need to divert economic output away from consumers, and towards - errr - foreigners. That is going to be extremely painful.
    Thinks.

    The currency is going to devalue again, isn't it?

    Damn.

    (looks up bookie's odds, considers increasing bet... :( )
  • viewcode said:

    Trump has been piling on the pounds apparently, now officially a fatty mcfatty.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47243351

    If he survives Mueller and everything else and makes it to like 3 weeks before the end of his term then drops down dead from a coronary and makes me lose my bet I'm going to be most displeased.
    What's the bet?
    Trump to make it to the end of his term.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    viewcode said:

    SeanT said:

    Interesting that Peston seems to think that not only will the British not get a significant extension to faff around, they also won't get one for a referendum.

    Get your money on those options then....
    Yeah I think that's bollocks. Europe is heading for a nasty recession, Brexit - deal or no deal - is gonna make this worse for everyone. If we asked for an extension, for a referendum, my guess is the EU would eagerly grant it. Why not? What have they got to lose? If we vote Leave again, well we were leaving anyway, in some chaos, so what. It we vote Remain, it is a huge boost for the EU, and the ornery-but-humbled Brits would have to shut up for a decade.
    This is why I think the EU strategy for Brexit has been so dumb. They should have very quickly locked in their trade surplus with a mutually benefical deal. Then they should have locked in political co-operation. The UK is a permanent member of the UN, member of the G7 and G20 and useful as an ally against Trump.

    There is an article on the LSE blogs today from the Chief Economist at Allianz and he has said that the uncertainty caused by the EU not getting the trade sorted early has meant that the EU27 over the past 2 years has lost 60bill of exports.

    If they continue this then the RoW will continue to eat into their exports to the UK.

    Dumb and Dumber run the EU.
    Total EU exports (2017) are about 5.7 trillion dollars per year. If UK share of that is 440 billion, then EU27 exports is around 5.2 trillion, yes? Let's round down a bit cos my head hurts: 5 trillion dollars per year. So over the two-year period the EU27 exports are 10 trillion dollars. So if it loses 60 billion (you didn't say which unit but there's bugger all difference at this point, so let's go with dollars), that's 60 billion/10 trillion, or (6x10^10)/(1x10^13) = 6/10^3 = 0.006. In percentage terms that's 0.6%.

    So over a two year period their exports have decreased by 0.6% due to Brexit uncertainty.

    Hmmm.

    [http://www.worldstopexports.com/top-european-export-countries/ ]
    [Any stupid mistakes I've made, point them out]
    You need to be careful as to what your article believes are exports. It states that Germany exports 1.4Trillion.

    Here is another dataset that says Germany exports 1.33Tril in 2017 (no services), yet 877bill of those are exports to the single market. So the question is why are sales to the single market classed as exports? Are sales from California to Florida classed as exports?
    Or one part of China to another classed as exports?

    https://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/visualize/tree_map/hs92/export/deu/show/all/2017/
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233

    viewcode said:

    Trump has been piling on the pounds apparently, now officially a fatty mcfatty.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47243351

    If he survives Mueller and everything else and makes it to like 3 weeks before the end of his term then drops down dead from a coronary and makes me lose my bet I'm going to be most displeased.
    What's the bet?
    Trump to make it to the end of his term.
    Thank you
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758

    Anyone been able to decipher these cryptic Brexiteer words?

    'Olly Robbins is a draughts player in a chess world'

    It doesn't help that I've forgotten how to play draughts. What could this possibly mean?

    He's about to leave in a huff because he missed an obvious move?

    That may not be a pun...
  • viewcode said:

    tpfkar said:

    SeanT said:

    Interesting that Peston seems to think that not only will the British not get a significant extension to faff around, they also won't get one for a referendum.

    Get your money on those options then....
    Yeah I think that's bollocks. Europe is heading for a nasty recession, Brexit - deal or no deal - is gonna make this worse for everyone. If we asked for an extension, for a referendum, my guess is the EU would eagerly grant it. Why not? What have they got to lose? If we vote Leave again, well we were leaving anyway, in some chaos, so what. It we vote Remain, it is a huge boost for the EU, and the ornery-but-humbled Brits would have to shut up for a decade.
    Agree with Sean. I reckon we get any extension we ask for. Because if they say no, I reckon there will be such a backlash here that it'll be impossible to avoid no deal and a wave of patriotic fervour will mean a huge majority blaming it on the EU. Would create a focus to take it all out on Brussels.
    I'm sure it will. I'm sure every Leaver in the UK will blame the EU. Because every Leaver in the UK blames the EU for everything, everytime, regardless of reason. It's a conditioned reflex at this point.

    v-EU-code!

    (I thank you!)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    Got 7 minutes? This is worth your time

    https://vimeo.com/237489146
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Anyone been able to decipher these cryptic Brexiteer words?

    'Olly Robbins is a draughts player in a chess world'

    It doesn't help that I've forgotten how to play draughts. What could this possibly mean?

    It's like sending a hamster to a gerbil fight.
  • Anyone been able to decipher these cryptic Brexiteer words?

    'Olly Robbins is a draughts player in a chess world'

    It doesn't help that I've forgotten how to play draughts. What could this possibly mean?

    Well, draughts is a much simpler game than chess. All the pieces look alike and move alike, whereas in chess you have half a dozen different types of pieces, wot can move in different ways: Porns, Rooks, Knights, Bishops, Kings and Queens.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    rcs1000 said:

    Got 7 minutes? This is worth your time

    https://vimeo.com/237489146

    Very sobering, thanks.

    And a number of that 20,000 people would, within a few years, be fighting Germany - and more working in the war effort.

    People are odd.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,880
    I missed a few questions on the carrier deployment in the old thread. This is the situation...

    QNLZ is still conducting sea trials and has no declared combat capability. It will not achieve "Initial Operating Capability (Carrier Strike) until late 2020/2021 at which point it will go on its EASTPAC deployment which, according to the Fireplace Salesman, will shit up the Chinese.

    IOC(CS) is very basic and includes no AEW capability and "up to" 12 embarked F-35B. The second squadron of the air wing on the Pacific deployment will be USMC. The strike group will be brought up to strength by the French and Dutch navies.

    Full Operating Capability (Carrier Strike) is planned for 2023 and will still only be a single F-35B squadron but now with AEW provided by a flight of Merlin HM2 with CROWSNEST radar.

    IOC for Carrier Enabled Power Projection (ie both carriers operating to FOC(CS) standard) is late 2023. Although QNLZ will probably enter a lengthy refit at that point. Funds permitting...

    Full Operating Capability (Carrier Enabled Power Projection) is scheduled, if nothing else goes wrong, for mid 2026. This schedule is largely being driven by the miserly rate of acquisition of F-35B. The delivery of the full 48 jets of the order will not be complete until the end of 2024.

    So that's the story with the carriers despite what the Fireplace Salesman imagines.
  • Dura_Ace said:


    So that's the story with the carriers despite what the Fireplace Salesman imagines.

    Fire-sale Placeman!
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    I stand to be proven wrong by events (again,) but I don't see how these Labour and Tory Europhile malcontents are meant somehow to create a new party together. Not one that will last for more than five minutes, at any rate.

    We already have a party for wet centrists who have no discernible beliefs apart from an all-consuming love affair with the EU. What need or place is there for a second one?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758

    Anyone been able to decipher these cryptic Brexiteer words?

    'Olly Robbins is a draughts player in a chess world'

    It doesn't help that I've forgotten how to play draughts. What could this possibly mean?

    Well, draughts is a much simpler game than chess. All the pieces look alike and move alike, whereas in chess you have half a dozen different types of pieces, wot can move in different ways: Porns, Rooks, Knights, Bishops, Kings and Queens.
    Pawns, not porns! Anyone saying otherwise is nakedly wrong.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758
    Surely 'backgammon' would be better, or are you bored of these games?
  • ydoethur said:

    Anyone been able to decipher these cryptic Brexiteer words?

    'Olly Robbins is a draughts player in a chess world'

    It doesn't help that I've forgotten how to play draughts. What could this possibly mean?

    Well, draughts is a much simpler game than chess. All the pieces look alike and move alike, whereas in chess you have half a dozen different types of pieces, wot can move in different ways: Porns, Rooks, Knights, Bishops, Kings and Queens.
    Pawns, not porns! Anyone saying otherwise is nakedly wrong.
    You never heard of a Porn Shop??
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758
    edited February 2019

    ydoethur said:

    Anyone been able to decipher these cryptic Brexiteer words?

    'Olly Robbins is a draughts player in a chess world'

    It doesn't help that I've forgotten how to play draughts. What could this possibly mean?

    Well, draughts is a much simpler game than chess. All the pieces look alike and move alike, whereas in chess you have half a dozen different types of pieces, wot can move in different ways: Porns, Rooks, Knights, Bishops, Kings and Queens.
    Pawns, not porns! Anyone saying otherwise is nakedly wrong.
    You never heard of a Porn Shop??
    I think you're confusing two concepts there, Doctor...

    A porn shop would only involve two balls.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Anyone been able to decipher these cryptic Brexiteer words?

    'Olly Robbins is a draughts player in a chess world'

    It doesn't help that I've forgotten how to play draughts. What could this possibly mean?

    Well, draughts is a much simpler game than chess. All the pieces look alike and move alike, whereas in chess you have half a dozen different types of pieces, wot can move in different ways: Porns, Rooks, Knights, Bishops, Kings and Queens.
    Pawns, not porns! Anyone saying otherwise is nakedly wrong.
    You never heard of a Porn Shop??
    I think you're confusing two concepts there, Doctor...

    A porn shop would only involve two balls.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvBrU1Cofms
This discussion has been closed.