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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » On the Betfair exchange LAB’s chances of winning most seats ne

SystemSystem Posts: 11,016
edited February 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » On the Betfair exchange LAB’s chances of winning most seats next time drop to a 41% chance

Betdata.io chart of movement on the Betfair exchange

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  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,537
    Wait for a few Tories to leave....
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,537
    And you might have waited for the previous thread to break 1000....
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    To be expected, though I would have thought that if it takes off it will probably pull as many Conservative Remainers as erstwhile Labour loyalists.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,952
    So many questions, so few answers.
    Meanwhile, 946 hours to Brexit.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,261
    Third!
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    To be expected, though I would have thought that if it takes off it will probably pull as many Conservative Remainers as erstwhile Labour loyalists.

    Conservative MPs defecting maybe, Conservative voters...?
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,261
    TIG twitter feed continues to gain 1,000 followers every six minutes.

    A prize for recognising the town in the aerial photo?
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    Caroline Lucas as a centrist?

    Center of what exactly?
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,722
    Incidentally my brief point FPT is unanswered: does this group get funding without being a formal party?
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,952

    To be expected, though I would have thought that if it takes off it will probably pull as many Conservative Remainers as erstwhile Labour loyalists.

    Conservative MPs defecting maybe, Conservative voters...?
    Depends. Who follows May? The membership will choose the most right wing option put to them.
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    Johnny mac wants by-elections of these traitors.
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    To be expected, though I would have thought that if it takes off it will probably pull as many Conservative Remainers as erstwhile Labour loyalists.

    Conservative MPs defecting maybe, Conservative voters...?
    What do you think the Conservative party offers Remain voters beyond the prospect of keeping out Jeremy Corbyn?
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    Caroline Lucas as a centrist?

    Center of what exactly?

    her own private universe?
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,261

    Caroline Lucas as a centrist?

    Center of what exactly?

    Brighton.
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    Nigelb said:

    And you might have waited for the previous thread to break 1000....

    It has
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    Looking at the TIG seats individually one sticks out,

    Penistone and Stocksbridge - ultramarginal

    Stockport, very safe Labour
    Wavertree, ultrasafe Labour
    Ilford South, ultrasafe Labour
    Nottingham East, very very safe Labour
    Luton South, very safe Labour
    Streatham, ultrasafe Labour

    So only Smith might give the Tories a seat if she runs next time round; I'd expect the rest to be safe Labour holds even if the MPs ran as independents. I doubt any of them can win without the Labour mark.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,537

    To be expected, though I would have thought that if it takes off it will probably pull as many Conservative Remainers as erstwhile Labour loyalists.

    Conservative MPs defecting maybe, Conservative voters...?
    What do you think the Conservative party offers Remain voters beyond the prospect of keeping out Jeremy Corbyn?
    Deselections ?

  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,537

    Nigelb said:

    And you might have waited for the previous thread to break 1000....

    It has
    Subsequently.
    :smile:

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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,261
    viewcode said:

    Incidentally my brief point FPT is unanswered: does this group get funding without being a formal party?

    Short money is based on party votes at the previous election
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    To be expected, though I would have thought that if it takes off it will probably pull as many Conservative Remainers as erstwhile Labour loyalists.

    Conservative MPs defecting maybe, Conservative voters...?
    What do you think the Conservative party offers Remain voters beyond the prospect of keeping out Jeremy Corbyn?
    Maybe we're staying as a 2 party system, but instead of Left/Right it'll be Pro/Anti EU.
    Deep joy.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,261
    More interesting will be how many actually serving councillors follow the MPs' lead
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    _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    _Anazina_ said:

    How many of 7 had already lost a VONC from their CLPs

    CL - Yes
    CU - Yes
    AS - Yes
    GS - Yes
    AC - ?
    LB - 2 tabled but withdrawn
    MG - ?

    As one who strives for hard-left, anti-furrinner, illiberal socialist purity in the party, you must consider today's events another milestone passed in your struggle.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    Political position Centre
    Colours Grey
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,850
    How many of 7 had already lost a VONC from their CLPs

    CL - Yes
    CU - Yes
    AS - Yes
    GS - Yes
    AC - ?
    LB - 2 tabled but withdrawn
    MG - ?
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,105
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917

    To be expected, though I would have thought that if it takes off it will probably pull as many Conservative Remainers as erstwhile Labour loyalists.

    Conservative MPs defecting maybe, Conservative voters...?
    What do you think the Conservative party offers Remain voters beyond the prospect of keeping out Jeremy Corbyn?
    Maybe we're staying as a 2 party system, but instead of Left/Right it'll be Pro/Anti EU.
    Deep joy.
    Not whilst Corbyn leads Labour lol.
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    rawzerrawzer Posts: 189

    To be expected, though I would have thought that if it takes off it will probably pull as many Conservative Remainers as erstwhile Labour loyalists.

    Conservative MPs defecting maybe, Conservative voters...?
    What do you think the Conservative party offers Remain voters beyond the prospect of keeping out Jeremy Corbyn?
    Maybe we're staying as a 2 party system, but instead of Left/Right it'll be Pro/Anti EU.
    Deep joy.
    In the long term I wonder if it may actually become Young v Old, though Pro/Anti EU is a decent proxy for now
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    FPT, although the first point has now been addressed in the header:

    If my maths is right this means that Labour has now lost more than half of its gains at the 2017 GE.

    On the main story of the day: I have never voted for a Labour candidate (although I was seriously tempted last time as my MP is Steve Baker, but the rumbles on PB that it was going to be much closer than anybody expected meant I couldn’t risk it) but the prospect of a Labour Party (or replacement) that is actually electable is vital for our democracy. The prospect that Corbyn is electable would be even worse.
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    To be expected, though I would have thought that if it takes off it will probably pull as many Conservative Remainers as erstwhile Labour loyalists.

    Conservative MPs defecting maybe, Conservative voters...?
    What do you think the Conservative party offers Remain voters beyond the prospect of keeping out Jeremy Corbyn?

    Given that Corbyn is also a leaver, that is enough.
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    Scott_P said:
    How long until he mentions you know who?
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,537

    To be expected, though I would have thought that if it takes off it will probably pull as many Conservative Remainers as erstwhile Labour loyalists.

    Conservative MPs defecting maybe, Conservative voters...?
    As was pointed out in the previous thread (possibly to you ?) a not insignificant part of the Tory vote depends on the keep Corbyn out argument.
    It now might get interesting for reluctant Tories.

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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,537

    To be expected, though I would have thought that if it takes off it will probably pull as many Conservative Remainers as erstwhile Labour loyalists.

    Conservative MPs defecting maybe, Conservative voters...?
    What do you think the Conservative party offers Remain voters beyond the prospect of keeping out Jeremy Corbyn?

    Given that Corbyn is also a leaver, that is enough.
    Perhaps no longer.

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    Pulpstar said:

    Looking at the TIG seats individually one sticks out,

    Penistone and Stocksbridge - ultramarginal

    Stockport, very safe Labour
    Wavertree, ultrasafe Labour
    Ilford South, ultrasafe Labour
    Nottingham East, very very safe Labour
    Luton South, very safe Labour
    Streatham, ultrasafe Labour

    So only Smith might give the Tories a seat if she runs next time round; I'd expect the rest to be safe Labour holds even if the MPs ran as independents. I doubt any of them can win without the Labour mark.

    I thought they said that they wouldn't stand in their existing constituencies, but in marginal seats?
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,598
    The CLP stuck together despite Iraq. And now people are using a second-order issue like Brexit as a reason to leave.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,537

    How many of 7 had already lost a VONC from their CLPs

    CL - Yes
    CU - Yes
    AS - Yes
    GS - Yes
    AC - ?
    LB - 2 tabled but withdrawn
    MG - ?

    And how’s that working out for Labour ?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    I thought they said that they wouldn't stand in their existing constituencies, but in marginal seats?

    A reporter said that. Not sure they actually said it, yet.
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    rawzer said:

    To be expected, though I would have thought that if it takes off it will probably pull as many Conservative Remainers as erstwhile Labour loyalists.

    Conservative MPs defecting maybe, Conservative voters...?
    What do you think the Conservative party offers Remain voters beyond the prospect of keeping out Jeremy Corbyn?
    Maybe we're staying as a 2 party system, but instead of Left/Right it'll be Pro/Anti EU.
    Deep joy.
    In the long term I wonder if it may actually become Young v Old, though Pro/Anti EU is a decent proxy for now
    The short term is anybody's guess, until brexit is done at any rate.

    In the long term, I would expect a return to more traditional left/right politics with the real battle ground in the centre. I would hope that the more extremes of left and right are sidelined once the brexit dust has settled.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited February 2019
    Scott_P said:

    I thought they said that they wouldn't stand in their existing constituencies, but in marginal seats?

    A reporter said that. Not sure they actually said it, yet.
    Ah, thanks. I knew I'd seen it somewhere.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,139
    What a fantastic day for the Conservative Party. Nice one Jeremy!

    That said, Corbyn gets his wish for perpetual opposition. Power without responsibility!
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    IanB2 said:

    viewcode said:

    Incidentally my brief point FPT is unanswered: does this group get funding without being a formal party?

    Short money is based on party votes at the previous election
    The same would apply to coverage allocated to this group in an election campaign by the broadcasters.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881
    viewcode said:

    Incidentally my brief point FPT is unanswered: does this group get funding without being a formal party?

    You’d certainly need to be a registered party to claim Short Money after an election, when it’s allocated for the whole Parliament - what might happen before that is mostly at the discretion of the Speaker. Labour would certainly argue that 150 independent MPs don’t have the right to call themselves the Official Opposition, for example.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Pulpstar said:

    Looking at the TIG seats individually one sticks out,

    Penistone and Stocksbridge - ultramarginal

    Stockport, very safe Labour
    Wavertree, ultrasafe Labour
    Ilford South, ultrasafe Labour
    Nottingham East, very very safe Labour
    Luton South, very safe Labour
    Streatham, ultrasafe Labour

    So only Smith might give the Tories a seat if she runs next time round; I'd expect the rest to be safe Labour holds even if the MPs ran as independents. I doubt any of them can win without the Labour mark.

    Useless fact: all of those seats with Conservative until 1979 and/or 1983.
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    I very much doubt Boles and Grieve would join this. At the end of the day, they’re not social democrats.

    Heidi Allen and Sarah Wollaston I could absolutely see jumping.
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,850
    Oh no First Mike Gapes

    Now Adam Langlethingy

    If only Corbyn hadnt completely ignored AS

    https://twitter.com/the_awakend/status/1029685536951345152
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    AndyJS said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Looking at the TIG seats individually one sticks out,

    Penistone and Stocksbridge - ultramarginal

    Stockport, very safe Labour
    Wavertree, ultrasafe Labour
    Ilford South, ultrasafe Labour
    Nottingham East, very very safe Labour
    Luton South, very safe Labour
    Streatham, ultrasafe Labour

    So only Smith might give the Tories a seat if she runs next time round; I'd expect the rest to be safe Labour holds even if the MPs ran as independents. I doubt any of them can win without the Labour mark.

    Useless fact: all of those seats with Conservative until 1979 and/or 1983.
    Their voters moved out to the burbs and shires.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917

    Pulpstar said:

    Looking at the TIG seats individually one sticks out,

    Penistone and Stocksbridge - ultramarginal

    Stockport, very safe Labour
    Wavertree, ultrasafe Labour
    Ilford South, ultrasafe Labour
    Nottingham East, very very safe Labour
    Luton South, very safe Labour
    Streatham, ultrasafe Labour

    So only Smith might give the Tories a seat if she runs next time round; I'd expect the rest to be safe Labour holds even if the MPs ran as independents. I doubt any of them can win without the Labour mark.

    I thought they said that they wouldn't stand in their existing constituencies, but in marginal seats?
    Hmm - Whats the point of that ? TIG start on precisely 0 votes in each seat, plenty of potential targets are already Lib Dem territory (OXWAB).
    Finchley and Golders Green might be worth a pop I suppose, but no seat is marginal wrt TIG at the moment :)
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    Nigelb said:

    How many of 7 had already lost a VONC from their CLPs

    CL - Yes
    CU - Yes
    AS - Yes
    GS - Yes
    AC - ?
    LB - 2 tabled but withdrawn
    MG - ?

    And how’s that working out for Labour ?

    That’s what pushed them.

    What else had they to lose?
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    Nigelb said:

    To be expected, though I would have thought that if it takes off it will probably pull as many Conservative Remainers as erstwhile Labour loyalists.

    Conservative MPs defecting maybe, Conservative voters...?
    What do you think the Conservative party offers Remain voters beyond the prospect of keeping out Jeremy Corbyn?

    Given that Corbyn is also a leaver, that is enough.
    Perhaps no longer.

    I voted remain reluctantly and would be very unhappy with a “we can’t leave because it’s too difficult” outcome. A party whose sole aim was to reverse Brexit would not get my vote unless, with a certain irony I admit, I knew it would get rid of my MP while running no risk of forming a government.
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    I wonder how John McDonnell feels today - he was so close he could smell it

    Corbyn would be happy one suspects for the splits to continue down to total purity with just him on the allotment.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,261
    AndyJS said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Looking at the TIG seats individually one sticks out,

    Penistone and Stocksbridge - ultramarginal

    Stockport, very safe Labour
    Wavertree, ultrasafe Labour
    Ilford South, ultrasafe Labour
    Nottingham East, very very safe Labour
    Luton South, very safe Labour
    Streatham, ultrasafe Labour

    So only Smith might give the Tories a seat if she runs next time round; I'd expect the rest to be safe Labour holds even if the MPs ran as independents. I doubt any of them can win without the Labour mark.

    Useless fact: all of those seats with Conservative until 1979 and/or 1983.
    Simply a combination of the changing demographics of urban Britain together with the Tories pandering toward the shires.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,330

    How many of 7 had already lost a VONC from their CLPs

    CL - Yes
    CU - Yes
    AS - Yes
    GS - Yes
    AC - ?
    LB - 2 tabled but withdrawn
    MG - ?

    It's a chicken and egg question. Would they have quit without the VONC pushing them? Conversely, do the VONCers now feel their scepticism has been validated?

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    Scott_P said:
    “You know who else used to get abuse for doing something he believed in..?”
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    Nigelb said:

    How many of 7 had already lost a VONC from their CLPs

    CL - Yes
    CU - Yes
    AS - Yes
    GS - Yes
    AC - ?
    LB - 2 tabled but withdrawn
    MG - ?

    And how’s that working out for Labour ?

    That’s what pushed them.

    What else had they to lose?
    Now apply that to the Conservative party's own jihad against Remain-sympathising MPs and rethink who might defect.
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    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Looking at the TIG seats individually one sticks out,

    Penistone and Stocksbridge - ultramarginal

    Stockport, very safe Labour
    Wavertree, ultrasafe Labour
    Ilford South, ultrasafe Labour
    Nottingham East, very very safe Labour
    Luton South, very safe Labour
    Streatham, ultrasafe Labour

    So only Smith might give the Tories a seat if she runs next time round; I'd expect the rest to be safe Labour holds even if the MPs ran as independents. I doubt any of them can win without the Labour mark.

    I thought they said that they wouldn't stand in their existing constituencies, but in marginal seats?
    Hmm - Whats the point of that ? TIG start on precisely 0 votes in each seat, plenty of potential targets are already Lib Dem territory (OXWAB).
    Finchley and Golders Green might be worth a pop I suppose, but no seat is marginal wrt TIG at the moment :)
    I think their only market is wealthy liberals/lefties - but those people are disproportionately concentrated in ultra-safe Labour seats.

    One of the few exceptions is Kensington - the "Independents" might have an outside chance of sneaking a win on a 3-way split vote there.
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    It is far from clear that even in a marginal seat that this group would hot the Labour vote more than the Tories.Quite a few voters have reluctantly stayed with the Tories for fear of seeing a Corbyn -led Govt elected , and might well respond to this message - as might others considering supporting the LibDems.
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    I very much doubt Boles and Grieve would join this. At the end of the day, they’re not social democrats.

    Heidi Allen and Sarah Wollaston I could absolutely see jumping.

    It looks very Coalition politics to me. I would have thought a number of liberal Conservatives would be quite comfortable with it.
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    Scott_P said:
    “You know who else used to get abuse for doing something he believed in..?”
    Typical media anti-Labour bias. You can't discuss Hitler! You can't discuss Churchill :)
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,850
    Nigelb said:

    How many of 7 had already lost a VONC from their CLPs

    CL - Yes
    CU - Yes
    AS - Yes
    GS - Yes
    AC - ?
    LB - 2 tabled but withdrawn
    MG - ?

    And how’s that working out for Labour ?
    The minimum Lab should expect is that their elected representatives should be able to say is that they would prefer a Lab Govt under Jezza than a Tory one under TM.

    Unfortunately the not so magnificent 7 even couldnt meet this minimum requirement.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,039
    edited February 2019
    Will Tessy's GE trigger squeezing finger have regained its familiar itch (especially while Jezza is still in charge)?
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    Scott_P said:
    Not *quite* the same, one would imagine.
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    Scott_P said:
    “You know who else used to get abuse for doing something he believed in..?”
    Thread winner...new thread required.
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    I very much doubt Boles and Grieve would join this. At the end of the day, they’re not social democrats.

    Heidi Allen and Sarah Wollaston I could absolutely see jumping.

    It looks very Coalition politics to me. I would have thought a number of liberal Conservatives would be quite comfortable with it.
    Boles has said he’s a national liberal in the past; I doubt he’d agree with this group on taxation or radical public services reform.

    Grieve is actually rather socially and fiscally conservative, if rather liberal on crime & justice and one nation on everything else, including the EU.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    What a fantastic day for the Conservative Party. Nice one Jeremy!

    That said, Corbyn gets his wish for perpetual opposition. Power without responsibility!

    I don't agree. It's impossible to know what twists and turns this will take. What we know is that most voters are somewhere in the centre but both major party leaderships are at the extreme. (The Tories more than Labour). This could well kill the Labour Party but equally it could be irrelevant.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Not *quite* the same, one would imagine.

    https://twitter.com/twlldun/status/1097487938055749634
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    dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Danny565 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Looking at the TIG seats individually one sticks out,

    Penistone and Stocksbridge - ultramarginal

    Stockport, very safe Labour
    Wavertree, ultrasafe Labour
    Ilford South, ultrasafe Labour
    Nottingham East, very very safe Labour
    Luton South, very safe Labour
    Streatham, ultrasafe Labour

    So only Smith might give the Tories a seat if she runs next time round; I'd expect the rest to be safe Labour holds even if the MPs ran as independents. I doubt any of them can win without the Labour mark.

    I thought they said that they wouldn't stand in their existing constituencies, but in marginal seats?
    Hmm - Whats the point of that ? TIG start on precisely 0 votes in each seat, plenty of potential targets are already Lib Dem territory (OXWAB).
    Finchley and Golders Green might be worth a pop I suppose, but no seat is marginal wrt TIG at the moment :)
    I think their only market is wealthy liberals/lefties - but those people are disproportionately concentrated in ultra-safe Labour seats.

    One of the few exceptions is Kensington - the "Independents" might have an outside chance of sneaking a win on a 3-way split vote there.
    I think you underestimate how utterly sick of blue red and yellow Brexit, expenses etc have made people. Swamp draining incoming
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    Scott_P said:
    In fairness, Daniel Hannan doesn't need to make predictions to look like a complete idiot.
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    The events of this morning have reinforced what I have been thinking for some time - that despite the cchaos that has been the government in recent times, Theresa May could end up in an unbelievably strong position in a couple of months.

    Furthermore, as someone who believes that a deal is by far the best (or least worst) outcome, I feel that May is finally going about this the right way. I have tried to "war game" her strategy and have concluded the following:

    1. Her ultimate goal is to put a deal to parliament with a compromise on the backstop. Thanks to the Brady amendment, she knows that this would have parliamentary backing and she is therefore able to tell the EU in clear terms what they need to do.

    2. As can be seen from the EU reaction to the prospect of No Deal in recent weeks, putting forward No Deal as the only alternative gives the EU incentive to negotiate in a collaborative manner.

    3. Even in the event that she is unable to gain any kind of concession from the EU, the Spelman Amendment shows that there is a parliamentary majority against No Deal, so if she were to present any deal to parliament at the last minute with No Deal as the only alternative then she is also likely to win.

    4. While an extension to pass various bills may be required once a deal is agreed, an extension to negotiate a deal is both pointless (as we are only arguing one detail) and counterproductive, as unless she gets a full concession from the EU she needs the time pressure to get her deal through.

    5. The above only works if No Deal is the alternative position. Removing No Deal removes all incentive for the EU to negotiate collaboratively and allows MPs hoping to remain to vote it down.

    6. If all of the above fails the EU is sure to grant an extension in order for both sides to avoid No Deal. I do not think for a minute that May is happy to allow No Deal to happen and may be forced down the referendum route.

    For those reasons, so long as she sticks to her negotiating principles, I expect a deal to be passed, which while flawed, is already seen as by far the least worst option in polls. A deal will, I expect, keep the tory party together while the labour party is hopelessly split.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,804
    How's Labrexit going? :D
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    I very much doubt Boles and Grieve would join this. At the end of the day, they’re not social democrats.

    Heidi Allen and Sarah Wollaston I could absolutely see jumping.

    It looks very Coalition politics to me. I would have thought a number of liberal Conservatives would be quite comfortable with it.
    More Cameroon/Blairite motherhood and apple pie at first glance.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881

    Will Tessy's GE trigger squeezing finger have regained its familiar itch (especially while Jezza is still in charge)?

    Hopefully no-one is letting her go for a walk in the countryside. Must be tempting to try and take advantage of a split opposition, but don’t do it!
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    AndyJS said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Looking at the TIG seats individually one sticks out,

    Penistone and Stocksbridge - ultramarginal

    Stockport, very safe Labour
    Wavertree, ultrasafe Labour
    Ilford South, ultrasafe Labour
    Nottingham East, very very safe Labour
    Luton South, very safe Labour
    Streatham, ultrasafe Labour

    So only Smith might give the Tories a seat if she runs next time round; I'd expect the rest to be safe Labour holds even if the MPs ran as independents. I doubt any of them can win without the Labour mark.

    Useless fact: all of those seats with Conservative until 1979 and/or 1983.
    Bar Nottingham East the seats were Tory-held until 1992 - though boundaries have changed.Wavertree disappeared in 1983 but was brought back as a bigger seat in 1997.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,139
    Roger said:

    What a fantastic day for the Conservative Party. Nice one Jeremy!

    That said, Corbyn gets his wish for perpetual opposition. Power without responsibility!

    I don't agree. It's impossible to know what twists and turns this will take. What we know is that most voters are somewhere in the centre but both major party leaderships are at the extreme. (The Tories more than Labour). This could well kill the Labour Party but equally it could be irrelevant.
    No if I were Mrs May I would be hill walking in Snowdonia this week.
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    Nigelb said:

    How many of 7 had already lost a VONC from their CLPs

    CL - Yes
    CU - Yes
    AS - Yes
    GS - Yes
    AC - ?
    LB - 2 tabled but withdrawn
    MG - ?

    And how’s that working out for Labour ?

    That’s what pushed them.

    What else had they to lose?
    Now apply that to the Conservative party's own jihad against Remain-sympathising MPs and rethink who might defect.
    It’s naked entryism by Aaron Banks and Leave.EU with the subtlety of a hand grenade on a maternity ward.

    The Conservative Party are very wise to it.
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    To be expected, though I would have thought that if it takes off it will probably pull as many Conservative Remainers as erstwhile Labour loyalists.

    Conservative MPs defecting maybe, Conservative voters...?
    What do you think the Conservative party offers Remain voters beyond the prospect of keeping out Jeremy Corbyn?
    I’d say a lot of Conservative Remain voters were more Conservative than Remain, accept we are leaving and would rather a Conservative govt than risk a Labour one by voting for people whose sole aim is stopping Brexit.
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    Nigelb said:

    How many of 7 had already lost a VONC from their CLPs

    CL - Yes
    CU - Yes
    AS - Yes
    GS - Yes
    AC - ?
    LB - 2 tabled but withdrawn
    MG - ?

    And how’s that working out for Labour ?

    That’s what pushed them.

    What else had they to lose?
    Now apply that to the Conservative party's own jihad against Remain-sympathising MPs and rethink who might defect.
    What Conservative Party jihad?

    I've seen stirring by loons like Banks who aren't even Tories. Nothing by actual Tories.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Nigelb said:

    How many of 7 had already lost a VONC from their CLPs

    CL - Yes
    CU - Yes
    AS - Yes
    GS - Yes
    AC - ?
    LB - 2 tabled but withdrawn
    MG - ?

    And how’s that working out for Labour ?

    That’s what pushed them.

    What else had they to lose?
    Now apply that to the Conservative party's own jihad against Remain-sympathising MPs and rethink who might defect.
    In the Con scenario - Allen and Soubry are the Corbynites...

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    Nigelb said:

    How many of 7 had already lost a VONC from their CLPs

    CL - Yes
    CU - Yes
    AS - Yes
    GS - Yes
    AC - ?
    LB - 2 tabled but withdrawn
    MG - ?

    And how’s that working out for Labour ?

    That’s what pushed them.

    What else had they to lose?
    Now apply that to the Conservative party's own jihad against Remain-sympathising MPs and rethink who might defect.
    It’s naked entryism by Aaron Banks and Leave.EU with the subtlety of a hand grenade on a maternity ward.

    The Conservative Party are very wise to it.
    Are they? It seems to be working.
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    nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    A lot of whining from some on social media about the seven but if Corbyn would have respected the party conference motion then this wouldn’t have happened .

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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,187

    The events of this morning have reinforced what I have been thinking for some time - that despite the cchaos that has been the government in recent times, Theresa May could end up in an unbelievably strong position in a couple of months.

    Furthermore, as someone who believes that a deal is by far the best (or least worst) outcome, I feel that May is finally going about this the right way. I have tried to "war game" her strategy and have concluded the following:

    1. Her ultimate goal is to put a deal to parliament with a compromise on the backstop. Thanks to the Brady amendment, she knows that this would have parliamentary backing and she is therefore able to tell the EU in clear terms what they need to do.

    2. As can be seen from the EU reaction to the prospect of No Deal in recent weeks, putting forward No Deal as the only alternative gives the EU incentive to negotiate in a collaborative manner.

    3. Even in the event that she is unable to gain any kind of concession from the EU, the Spelman Amendment shows that there is a parliamentary majority against No Deal, so if she were to present any deal to parliament at the last minute with No Deal as the only alternative then she is also likely to win.

    4. While an extension to pass various bills may be required once a deal is agreed, an extension to negotiate a deal is both pointless (as we are only arguing one detail) and counterproductive, as unless she gets a full concession from the EU she needs the time pressure to get her deal through.

    5. The above only works if No Deal is the alternative position. Removing No Deal removes all incentive for the EU to negotiate collaboratively and allows MPs hoping to remain to vote it down.

    6. If all of the above fails the EU is sure to grant an extension in order for both sides to avoid No Deal. I do not think for a minute that May is happy to allow No Deal to happen and may be forced down the referendum route.

    For those reasons, so long as she sticks to her negotiating principles, I expect a deal to be passed, which while flawed, is already seen as by far the least worst option in polls. A deal will, I expect, keep the tory party together while the labour party is hopelessly split.

    Agree 99%.

    The 1% where I don't is on your point 6.

    You think her last resort is to offer REF2. I think it is to call a GE.
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    If the Seven did stand down to face bye-elections, what would that do to the parliamentary arithmetic in the run up to Brexit? Is this a good reason why they won’t?
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Shirley Williams being interviewed on the World At One.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Scott_P said:

    Nigelb said:

    How many of 7 had already lost a VONC from their CLPs

    CL - Yes
    CU - Yes
    AS - Yes
    GS - Yes
    AC - ?
    LB - 2 tabled but withdrawn
    MG - ?

    And how’s that working out for Labour ?
    The minimum Lab should expect is that their elected representatives should be able to say is that they would prefer a Lab Govt under Jezza than a Tory one under TM.

    Unfortunately the not so magnificent 7 even couldnt meet this minimum requirement.
    You forget that had Umunna not withdrawn his leadership campaign he would almost certainly have been chosen.
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    EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    I very much doubt Boles and Grieve would join this. At the end of the day, they’re not social democrats.

    Heidi Allen and Sarah Wollaston I could absolutely see jumping.

    It looks very Coalition politics to me. I would have thought a number of liberal Conservatives would be quite comfortable with it.
    Boles has said he’s a national liberal in the past; I doubt he’d agree with this group on taxation or radical public services reform.

    Grieve is actually rather socially and fiscally conservative, if rather liberal on crime & justice and one nation on everything else, including the EU.
    If the "deselect Boles" train starts gathering pace, then he may decide that there are worse options than joining a new centrist group and helping shape it. End of the day, most of the current "independent Labour" MPs were facing deselection bids and effectively jumped before being pushed. I see no reason why that logic shouldn't translate over to the Government benches.
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    Oh no First Mike Gapes

    Now Adam Langlethingy

    If only Corbyn hadnt completely ignored AS

    https://twitter.com/the_awakend/status/1029685536951345152

    Was it an imperius curse that Williamson used?
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    To be expected, though I would have thought that if it takes off it will probably pull as many Conservative Remainers as erstwhile Labour loyalists.

    Conservative MPs defecting maybe, Conservative voters...?
    What do you think the Conservative party offers Remain voters beyond the prospect of keeping out Jeremy Corbyn?
    I’d say a lot of Conservative Remain voters were more Conservative than Remain, accept we are leaving and would rather a Conservative govt than risk a Labour one by voting for people whose sole aim is stopping Brexit.
    That looks like wishful thinking to me, straight from the school that thinks Labour Leavers are magically more Leavers than Labour but Conservative Remainers prioritise party loyalty. But polling shows that voters' Brexit identity is self-perceived to be stronger than their party identity and that a plurality of voters do not see a party that represents them.

    Conservative Remainers that have stuck with the Conservative party today are either doing so out of fear of Jeremy Corbyn or Stockholm Syndrome.
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    "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." .....

    “Chávez, with good reason, was suspicious of the country’s traditional business elite, so he created a new one,” says Scharfenburg. “Through its government connections the new elite amassed huge fortunes, both by over-billing state entities and through preferential access to dollars, which became a huge opportunity for self-enrichment.”

    In 2003 Chávez pegged the bolivar, the national currency, to the US dollar. As the bolivar devalued in real terms, huge arbitrage options opened up for individuals and companies who could buy dollars at the official rate and sell them on the black market, often at over 100 times their purchase value.

    With a dollarized economy, visa-free travel and a financial sector with a habit of turning a blind eye, Panama – along with Miami, Spain and Nicaragua – became a favourite destination for offshore investment and, for a while, the boligburgues could lead their often ostentatious retirements undisturbed.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/18/panama-papers-tightened-the-noose-on-offshore-assets-of-maduros-inner-circle
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    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,287
    Don't know for certain but IF these seven MPs won't vote for a GE (ie against Govt in VONC) then Govt can survive without the DUP.

    I guess TMay may not want to rely on them but it at least potentially changes the dynamics.

    The Govt's deal could potentially pass and the DUP wouldn't be able to bring down the Govt.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881

    The events of this morning have reinforced what I have been thinking for some time - that despite the cchaos that has been the government in recent times, Theresa May could end up in an unbelievably strong position in a couple of months.

    Furthermore, as someone who believes that a deal is by far the best (or least worst) outcome, I feel that May is finally going about this the right way. I have tried to "war game" her strategy and have concluded the following:

    1. Her ultimate goal is to put a deal to parliament with a compromise on the backstop. Thanks to the Brady amendment, she knows that this would have parliamentary backing and she is therefore able to tell the EU in clear terms what they need to do.

    2. As can be seen from the EU reaction to the prospect of No Deal in recent weeks, putting forward No Deal as the only alternative gives the EU incentive to negotiate in a collaborative manner.

    3. Even in the event that she is unable to gain any kind of concession from the EU, the Spelman Amendment shows that there is a parliamentary majority against No Deal, so if she were to present any deal to parliament at the last minute with No Deal as the only alternative then she is also likely to win.

    4. While an extension to pass various bills may be required once a deal is agreed, an extension to negotiate a deal is both pointless (as we are only arguing one detail) and counterproductive, as unless she gets a full concession from the EU she needs the time pressure to get her deal through.

    5. The above only works if No Deal is the alternative position. Removing No Deal removes all incentive for the EU to negotiate collaboratively and allows MPs hoping to remain to vote it down.

    6. If all of the above fails the EU is sure to grant an extension in order for both sides to avoid No Deal. I do not think for a minute that May is happy to allow No Deal to happen and may be forced down the referendum route.

    For those reasons, so long as she sticks to her negotiating principles, I expect a deal to be passed, which while flawed, is already seen as by far the least worst option in polls. A deal will, I expect, keep the tory party together while the labour party is hopelessly split.

    That sounds about right. We end up with an amended deal with a limited backstop passing at the last minute in March, following which the Tories go back to the rest of the things government needs to do, and Labour go back to arguing with each other over how it’s not really racism if it’s against Jews.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    edited February 2019

    If the Seven did stand down to face bye-elections, what would that do to the parliamentary arithmetic in the run up to Brexit? Is this a good reason why they won’t?

    Short answer, 7 Labour holds. Penistone is more interesting than the others (Possible outside chance of a Tory gain), as standing independents though I think they'd all probably lose.
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,850
    nico67 said:

    A lot of whining from some on social media about the seven but if Corbyn would have respected the party conference motion then this wouldn’t have happened .

    He is a 2nd Referendum is still on the table and will be a last resort if TM doesnt cave in to #CorbynsCustomsUnion.

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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    justin124 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Looking at the TIG seats individually one sticks out,

    Penistone and Stocksbridge - ultramarginal

    Stockport, very safe Labour
    Wavertree, ultrasafe Labour
    Ilford South, ultrasafe Labour
    Nottingham East, very very safe Labour
    Luton South, very safe Labour
    Streatham, ultrasafe Labour

    So only Smith might give the Tories a seat if she runs next time round; I'd expect the rest to be safe Labour holds even if the MPs ran as independents. I doubt any of them can win without the Labour mark.

    Useless fact: all of those seats with Conservative until 1979 and/or 1983.
    Bar Nottingham East the seats were Tory-held until 1992 - though boundaries have changed.Wavertree disappeared in 1983 but was brought back as a bigger seat in 1997.
    The Tories probably would have lost Wavertree in 1983 or 1987 given the big anti-Tory swing in Liverpool at that time.
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    To be expected, though I would have thought that if it takes off it will probably pull as many Conservative Remainers as erstwhile Labour loyalists.

    Conservative MPs defecting maybe, Conservative voters...?
    What do you think the Conservative party offers Remain voters beyond the prospect of keeping out Jeremy Corbyn?
    I’d say a lot of Conservative Remain voters were more Conservative than Remain, accept we are leaving and would rather a Conservative govt than risk a Labour one by voting for people whose sole aim is stopping Brexit.
    I am a conservative member but not planning to vote Tory again to show my extreme displeasure with this hard right capture of the party. If I, who has delivered leaflets for the tories is looking to move I would suggest I am not alone
This discussion has been closed.