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  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    edited March 2019

    TOPPING said:

    I see we are still going on the 'evil Laura Murray' with thugs like Stephen Pollard leading the charge.

    Here are a few Jewish people who have campaigned against anti semitism with their opinion on Laura.

    https://twitter.com/Jeremy_Newmark/status/1102921395267424256

    We can now go back to thrashing the young woman now on the say of angry old men like Stephen Pollard.

    Finally you accept that Labour has a "serious antisemitism problem". Well done you.
    As long as racism exists in society Labour will have a racism problem, as any racism is a problem.

    Be nice if you could adopt a similar approach with your own party, I won't be holding my breath.
    Sorry, Jezz, but 'Yeah but...' won't do.

    It is preposterous that Labour should be associated in any way with anti-semitism. It doesn't matter what other Parties may say or do. Labour has to be cleaner and purer than the driven snow in this regard. It was under every single Leader in my lifetime. That it is not now it an indictment the current Leadership cannot escape.
    Labour has less anti semitism now than it did previously when Ed was leader.

    Building up an idea Labour is anti semitic through false accusations such as Marc Wadsworth and then using his false accusations of AS and pictures with Corbyn as proof with Corbyn. Pushing the pro Palestinian = anti semitism angle on top of that was always going to cause a problem whether the party was anti semitic or not.

    Changing policy to support the occupation of Palestine is not worth it to stop being accused of racism. To do so would be cowardly.

    But until we do people like Stephen Pollard will continue to push the line by announcing a Jewish person who supports Corbyn as an anti semite for making exactly the same Jewish pun his paper has made.

    I agree the party should kick out any and all racists but that will not satisfy many of the people gunning for Labour. Plenty of those going along with the attack have little or no interest in Israel but plenty of reasons to go against the left.

    Edit: Also the association mainly exists in the minds of people on the right and centre of the political spectrum. Those who vote Labour mostly don't believe it.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831

    TOPPING said:

    I see we are still going on the 'evil Laura Murray' with thugs like Stephen Pollard leading the charge.

    Here are a few Jewish people who have campaigned against anti semitism with their opinion on Laura.

    https://twitter.com/Jeremy_Newmark/status/1102921395267424256

    We can now go back to thrashing the young woman now on the say of angry old men like Stephen Pollard.

    Finally you accept that Labour has a "serious antisemitism problem". Well done you.
    As long as racism exists in society Labour will have a racism problem, as any racism is a problem.

    Be nice if you could adopt a similar approach with your own party, I won't be holding my breath.
    Sorry, Jezz, but 'Yeah but...' won't do.

    It is preposterous that Labour should be associated in any way with anti-semitism. It doesn't matter what other Parties may say or do. Labour has to be cleaner and purer than the driven snow in this regard. It was under every single Leader in my lifetime. That it is not now it an indictment the current Leadership cannot escape.
    Labour has less anti semitism now than it did previously when Ed was leader.

    Building up an idea Labour is anti semitic through false accusations such as Marc Wadsworth and then using his false accusations of AS and pictures with Corbyn as proof with Corbyn. Pushing the pro Palestinian = anti semitism angle on top of that was always going to cause a problem whether the party was anti semitic or not.

    Changing policy to support the occupation of Palestine is not worth it to stop being accused of racism. To do so would be cowardly.

    But until we do people like Stephen Pollard will continue to push the line by announcing a Jewish person who supports Corbyn as an anti semite for making exactly the same Jewish pun his paper has made.

    I agree the party should kick out any and all racists but that will not satisfy many of the people gunning for Labour. Plenty of those going along with the attack have little or no interest in Israel but plenty of reasons to go against the left.

    Edit: Also the association mainly exists in the minds of people on the right and centre of the political spectrum. Those who vote Labour mostly don't believe it.
    Utter bollocks. You just don't want to acknowledge the scale of the issue.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,009
    But how can Islamophobia be as bad as antisemitism? Have people not read in the papers what these Muslims are like?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    edited March 2019
    Totally O/T, but one wonders at this:

    '87 golf buggies were stolen from a local business in Bishop's Stortford between February 22 and February 25.

    Information was provided to officers which suggested buggies which looked to be the same as the ones stolen, were being sold on an auction website from an address in #Romford.
    Officers executed a warrant at the address and found 38 golf buggies at the property. After further investigation, the buggies were found to be the ones which had been stolen from the business in Bishop's Stortford.

    The recovered golf buggies were returned to the owner and work is ongoing to locate the outstanding vehicles.
    Essex Police would like to hear from anyone who has seen brand new golf buggies for sale and are suspicious of where they have come from.'

    One wonders how they got them down the M11.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Swale council leader suspended from Conservative Party after retweeting support for Tommy Robinson"

    https://www.kentonline.co.uk/sittingbourne/news/council-leader-suspended-over-tommy-robinson-retweet-200113/
  • TOPPING said:

    I see we are still going on the 'evil Laura Murray' with thugs like Stephen Pollard leading the charge.

    Here are a few Jewish people who have campaigned against anti semitism with their opinion on Laura.

    https://twitter.com/Jeremy_Newmark/status/1102921395267424256

    We can now go back to thrashing the young woman now on the say of angry old men like Stephen Pollard.

    Finally you accept that Labour has a "serious antisemitism problem". Well done you.
    As long as racism exists in society Labour will have a racism problem, as any racism is a problem.

    Be nice if you could adopt a similar approach with your own party, I won't be holding my breath.
    Sorry, Jezz, but 'Yeah but...' won't do.

    It is preposterous that Labour should be associated in any way with anti-semitism. It doesn't matter what other Parties may say or do. Labour has to be cleaner and purer than the driven snow in this regard. It was under every single Leader in my lifetime. That it is not now it an indictment the current Leadership cannot escape.
    Labour has less anti semitism now than it did previously when Ed was leader.

    Building up an idea Labour is anti semitic through false accusations such as Marc Wadsworth and then using his false accusations of AS and pictures with Corbyn as proof with Corbyn. Pushing the pro Palestinian = anti semitism angle on top of that was always going to cause a problem whether the party was anti semitic or not.

    Changing policy to support the occupation of Palestine is not worth it to stop being accused of racism. To do so would be cowardly.

    But until we do people like Stephen Pollard will continue to push the line by announcing a Jewish person who supports Corbyn as an anti semite for making exactly the same Jewish pun his paper has made.

    I agree the party should kick out any and all racists but that will not satisfy many of the people gunning for Labour. Plenty of those going along with the attack have little or no interest in Israel but plenty of reasons to go against the left.

    Edit: Also the association mainly exists in the minds of people on the right and centre of the political spectrum. Those who vote Labour mostly don't believe it.
    Three long-serving, respected MPs have resigned over the issue. Others have expressed support for them. How bad does it have to get before you accept there's a problem?
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535

    Labour has less anti semitism now than it did previously when Ed was leader.

    Really?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765

    TOPPING said:

    I see we are still going on the 'evil Laura Murray' with thugs like Stephen Pollard leading the charge.

    Here are a few Jewish people who have campaigned against anti semitism with their opinion on Laura.

    https://twitter.com/Jeremy_Newmark/status/1102921395267424256

    We can now go back to thrashing the young woman now on the say of angry old men like Stephen Pollard.

    Finally you accept that Labour has a "serious antisemitism problem". Well done you.
    As long as racism exists in society Labour will have a racism problem, as any racism is a problem.

    Be nice if you could adopt a similar approach with your own party, I won't be holding my breath.
    Sorry, Jezz, but 'Yeah but...' won't do.

    It is preposterous that Labour should be associated in any way with anti-semitism. It doesn't matter what other Parties may say or do. Labour has to be cleaner and purer than the driven snow in this regard. It was under every single Leader in my lifetime. That it is not now it an indictment the current Leadership cannot escape.
    Labour has less anti semitism now than it did previously when Ed was leader.

    Building up an idea Labour is anti semitic through false accusations such as Marc Wadsworth and then using his false accusations of AS and pictures with Corbyn as proof with Corbyn. Pushing the pro Palestinian = anti semitism angle on top of that was always going to cause a problem whether the party was anti semitic or not.

    Changing policy to support the occupation of Palestine is not worth it to stop being accused of racism. To do so would be cowardly.

    But until we do people like Stephen Pollard will continue to push the line by announcing a Jewish person who supports Corbyn as an anti semite for making exactly the same Jewish pun his paper has made.

    I agree the party should kick out any and all racists but that will not satisfy many of the people gunning for Labour. Plenty of those going along with the attack have little or no interest in Israel but plenty of reasons to go against the left.

    Edit: Also the association mainly exists in the minds of people on the right and centre of the political spectrum. Those who vote Labour mostly don't believe it.
    Three long-serving, respected MPs have resigned over the issue. Others have expressed support for them. How bad does it have to get before you accept there's a problem?
    Those MPs are Tories.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959

    TOPPING said:

    I see we are still going on the 'evil Laura Murray' with thugs like Stephen Pollard leading the charge.

    Here are a few Jewish people who have campaigned against anti semitism with their opinion on Laura.

    https://twitter.com/Jeremy_Newmark/status/1102921395267424256

    We can now go back to thrashing the young woman now on the say of angry old men like Stephen Pollard.

    Finally you accept that Labour has a "serious antisemitism problem". Well done you.
    As long as racism exists in society Labour will have a racism problem, as any racism is a problem.

    Be nice if you could adopt a similar approach with your own party, I won't be holding my breath.
    Sorry, Jezz, but 'Yeah but...' won't do.

    It is preposterous that Labour should be associated in any way with anti-semitism. It doesn't matter what other Parties may say or do. Labour has to be cleaner and purer than the driven snow in this regard. It was under every single Leader in my lifetime. That it is not now it an indictment the current Leadership cannot escape.
    Labour has less anti semitism now than it did previously when Ed was leader.

    Building up an idea Labour is anti semitic through false accusations such as Marc Wadsworth and then using his false accusations of AS and pictures with Corbyn as proof with Corbyn. Pushing the pro Palestinian = anti semitism angle on top of that was always going to cause a problem whether the party was anti semitic or not.

    Changing policy to support the occupation of Palestine is not worth it to stop being accused of racism. To do so would be cowardly.

    But until we do people like Stephen Pollard will continue to push the line by announcing a Jewish person who supports Corbyn as an anti semite for making exactly the same Jewish pun his paper has made.

    I agree the party should kick out any and all racists but that will not satisfy many of the people gunning for Labour. Plenty of those going along with the attack have little or no interest in Israel but plenty of reasons to go against the left.

    Edit: Also the association mainly exists in the minds of people on the right and centre of the political spectrum. Those who vote Labour mostly don't believe it.
    Those who vote Labour mostly don't want to believe it.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092
    edited March 2019
    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    I see we are still going on the 'evil Laura Murray' with thugs like Stephen Pollard leading the charge.

    Here are a few Jewish people who have campaigned against anti semitism with their opinion on Laura.

    https://twitter.com/Jeremy_Newmark/status/1102921395267424256

    We can now go back to thrashing the young woman now on the say of angry old men like Stephen Pollard.

    Finally you accept that Labour has a "serious antisemitism problem". Well done you.
    As long as racism exists in society Labour will have a racism problem, as any racism is a problem.

    Be nice if you could adopt a similar approach with your own party, I won't be holding my breath.
    Sorry, Jezz, but 'Yeah but...' won't do.

    It is preposterous that Labour should be associated in any way with anti-semitism. It doesn't matter what other Parties may say or do. Labour has to be cleaner and purer than the driven snow in this regard. It was under every single Leader in my lifetime. That it is not now it an indictment the current Leadership cannot escape.
    Labour has less anti semitism now than it did previously when Ed was leader.

    Building up an idea Labour is anti semitic through false accusations such as Marc Wadsworth and then using his false accusations of AS and pictures with Corbyn as proof with Corbyn. Pushing the pro Palestinian = anti semitism angle on top of that was always going to cause a problem whether the party was anti semitic or not.

    Changing policy to support the occupation of Palestine is not worth it to stop being accused of racism. To do so would be cowardly.

    But until we do people like Stephen Pollard will continue to push the line by announcing a Jewish person who supports Corbyn as an anti semite for making exactly the same Jewish pun his paper has made.

    I agree the party should kick out any and all racists but that will not satisfy many of the people gunning for Labour. Plenty of those going along with the attack have little or no interest in Israel but plenty of reasons to go against the left.

    Edit: Also the association mainly exists in the minds of people on the right and centre of the political spectrum. Those who vote Labour mostly don't believe it.
    Three long-serving, respected MPs have resigned over the issue. Others have expressed support for them. How bad does it have to get before you accept there's a problem?
    Those MPs are Tories.
    The other eight too. :)
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981



    Labour has less anti semitism now than it did previously when Ed was leader.

    Building up an idea Labour is anti semitic through false accusations such as Marc Wadsworth and then using his false accusations of AS and pictures with Corbyn as proof with Corbyn. Pushing the pro Palestinian = anti semitism angle on top of that was always going to cause a problem whether the party was anti semitic or not.

    Changing policy to support the occupation of Palestine is not worth it to stop being accused of racism. To do so would be cowardly.

    But until we do people like Stephen Pollard will continue to push the line by announcing a Jewish person who supports Corbyn as an anti semite for making exactly the same Jewish pun his paper has made.

    I agree the party should kick out any and all racists but that will not satisfy many of the people gunning for Labour. Plenty of those going along with the attack have little or no interest in Israel but plenty of reasons to go against the left.

    Edit: Also the association mainly exists in the minds of people on the right and centre of the political spectrum. Those who vote Labour mostly don't believe it.

    Don't be so utterly and offensively stupid. Can you genuinely not see that context makes the difference between using the Jew/due pun in a newspaper article about Woody Allen films, and in a serious political meeting designed to investigate claims of anti-Semitism?

    Probably you can't actually, if you can't also tell that today's line of "Don't be beastly to Laura cos she is kind to small animals" is as risible as yesterday's "Don't be beastly to Laura cos her mum's poorly innit?"

    On reflection, perhaps you are a false flag operation by CCHQ.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    I see we are still going on the 'evil Laura Murray' with thugs like Stephen Pollard leading the charge.

    Here are a few Jewish people who have campaigned against anti semitism with their opinion on Laura.

    https://twitter.com/Jeremy_Newmark/status/1102921395267424256

    We can now go back to thrashing the young woman now on the say of angry old men like Stephen Pollard.

    Finally you accept that Labour has a "serious antisemitism problem". Well done you.
    As long as racism exists in society Labour will have a racism problem, as any racism is a problem.

    Be nice if you could adopt a similar approach with your own party, I won't be holding my breath.
    Ah, the “everyone is doing it” defence.

    Well, I suppose if it’s good enough for Labour and anti-semitism it will be good enough for Tories and Islamophobia, is that what you meant to say?
    It is pointing out that Topping is only a courageous fighter against racism in opposition parties only.

    No surprise though that you don't call out any Conservative voters for this. I wonder why....?
    Actually, I have done - repeatedly. I did so this morning. Perhaps you were still in bed.......
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Ishmael_Z said:

    nico67 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Wonder if anybody has a recording?
    Zzzzzzz. A meteor could be about to wipe out life on earth and the media would still be droning on about Labour .
    And the BBC could run footage of Corbyn dressed in Waffen SS uniform under an Arbeit Macht Frei arch - and you'd still refuse to see there was any news value in it....
    I’ve said on numerous occasions I’m not a fan of Corbyn . So not sure what you’re point is. I simply said I’m bored of the story.
    If you're bored of it why do you talk about it? And why does the situation arise that you have to say "on numerous occasions" that you are not a fan of Corbyn's? Its a puzzling coincidence that people are routinely making the same mistake about you.

    What you are is an astroturfer. You are so transparently bad at it that you must be an enthusiastic amateur, because no one would pay for this kind of stuff. Can I urge you to consider the possibility that you are simply embarrassing the people whose cause you think you are assisting?
    What twaddle, and what cause . I simply stated I was bored of a story . As I said I’d prefer a different Labour leader but putting that aside I don’t believe Corbyn is anti Semitic and he’s certainly done more for anti racism than many other politicians.
    OK. You are bored of it. Lots of people aren't. Which is more boring: a. a subject which is occupying most of the time of the Leader and Deputy Leader of Labour, the Gen.Sec. and the PLP and the UK's political commentators, or b. the internal mind state of a pseudonymous poster on an internet forum? So if you don't want to hear about a. why do you think anyone else wants to hear about b. - never mind, hear about it ten times an hour?

    I'll tell you a subject I tend to find boring, and that is quantum electrodynamics The reason I find it boring, is quite simply that I don't understand it. Perhaps there is a parallel to your own case somewhere in there?
    Are you the boredom police . Feel free to be bored over anything you like and I’ll do the same .
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mr. 67, the current government is very unimpressive.

    And yet, Corbyn would be worse.

    I kind of feel like debating the relative merits of Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn as PM is akin to debating whether it is better or worse to have an arm amputated, or a leg. I think I can appreciate reasonable arguments for why one might be better than the other as a theoretical exercise, but mostly one just hears "voting for us is the only way to stop your leg/arm from being amputated" and that isn't really a choice that I am interested in making.
    Quite some time ago, Richard Nabavi (of this parish) stated that it was not inconceivable that we could be heading for the double whammy of a No Deal Brexit and 'Venezuela'. I think at the time this was regarded as highly unlikely, but I wouldn't be so sure now.
    Calm yourself. We are heading for a deal.
    Why do you say that? We’re 23 days away from Brexit day. There is no sign of enough MPs changing their mind and the so-called negotiations in Brussels appear to be going nowhere.

    Because no deal is impossible so that leaves a deal or no Brexit and I think even the headbangers will realise that the former, for them, is better than the latter (although it could of course go to a referendum).

    Once you realise no deal is impossible, then that leaves the improbable.
    You're misreading the Brexit mindset.

    https://twitter.com/JohnOSullivanNR/status/1102965488076967936
    Blimey, some Brexiteers are just determined to play into the hands of the remainers.
    Blimey, some Brexiteers are just determined to actually Leave.

    If you are of the opinion that the backstop leaves us trapped in, then without a unilateral exit clause we have less sovereignty in the backstop than we do in the EU. In the EU we can give 2 years notice, we've done it once we can do it again.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mr. 67, the current government is very unimpressive.

    And yet, Corbyn would be worse.

    I kind of feel like debating the relative merits of Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn as PM is akin to debating whether it is better or worse to have an arm amputated, or a leg. I think I can appreciate reasonable arguments for why one might be better than the other as a theoretical exercise, but mostly one just hears "voting for us is the only way to stop your leg/arm from being amputated" and that isn't really a choice that I am interested in making.
    Quite some time ago, Richard Nabavi (of this parish) stated that it was not inconceivable that we could be heading for the double whammy of a No Deal Brexit and 'Venezuela'. I think at the time this was regarded as highly unlikely, but I wouldn't be so sure now.
    Calm yourself. We are heading for a deal.
    Why do you say that? We’re 23 days away from Brexit day. There is no sign of enough MPs changing their mind and the so-called negotiations in Brussels appear to be going nowhere.

    Because no deal is impossible so that leaves a deal or no Brexit and I think even the headbangers will realise that the former, for them, is better than the latter (although it could of course go to a referendum).

    Once you realise no deal is impossible, then that leaves the improbable.
    You're misreading the Brexit mindset.

    https://twitter.com/JohnOSullivanNR/status/1102965488076967936
    Blimey, some Brexiteers are just determined to play into the hands of the remainers.
    Blimey, some Brexiteers are just determined to actually Leave.

    If you are of the opinion that the backstop leaves us trapped in, then without a unilateral exit clause we have less sovereignty in the backstop than we do in the EU. In the EU we can give 2 years notice, we've done it once we can do it again.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    TOPPING said:

    I see we are still going on the 'evil Laura Murray' with thugs like Stephen Pollard leading the charge.



    Sorry, Jezz, but 'Yeah but...' won't do.

    It is preposterous that Labour should be associated in any way with anti-semitism. It doesn't matter what other Parties may say or do. Labour has to be cleaner and purer than the driven snow in this regard. It was under every single Leader in my lifetime. That it is not now it an indictment the current Leadership cannot escape.
    Labour has less anti semitism now than it did previously when Ed was leader.

    Building up an idea Labour is anti semitic through false accusations such as Marc Wadsworth and then using his false accusations of AS and pictures with Corbyn as proof with Corbyn. Pushing the pro Palestinian = anti semitism angle on top of that was always going to cause a problem whether the party was anti semitic or not.

    Changing policy to support the occupation of Palestine is not worth it to stop being accused of racism. To do so would be cowardly.

    But until we do people like Stephen Pollard will continue to push the line by announcing a Jewish person who supports Corbyn as an anti semite for making exactly the same Jewish pun his paper has made.

    I agree the party should kick out any and all racists but that will not satisfy many of the people gunning for Labour. Plenty of those going along with the attack have little or no interest in Israel but plenty of reasons to go against the left.

    Edit: Also the association mainly exists in the minds of people on the right and centre of the political spectrum. Those who vote Labour mostly don't believe it.
    Three long-serving, respected MPs have resigned over the issue. Others have expressed support for them. How bad does it have to get before you accept there's a problem?
    Any racism is a problem TBH, if you mean it is a problem as in the leadership or large sections of the party are racist then I would say no.

    Those 3 MPs also have large ideological problems with the party and were likely to be replaced by the next election. It would be inaccurate to say this was their only problem, Ian Austin didn't like Ed let alone Corbyn.
  • TOPPING said:

    I see we are still going on the 'evil Laura Murray' with thugs like Stephen Pollard leading the charge.

    Here are a few Jewish people who have campaigned against anti semitism with their opinion on Laura.

    https://twitter.com/Jeremy_Newmark/status/1102921395267424256

    We can now go back to thrashing the young woman now on the say of angry old men like Stephen Pollard.

    Finally you accept that Labour has a "serious antisemitism problem". Well done you.
    As long as racism exists in society Labour will have a racism problem, as any racism is a problem.

    Be nice if you could adopt a similar approach with your own party, I won't be holding my breath.
    Sorry, Jezz, but 'Yeah but...' won't do.

    It is preposterous that Labour should be associated in any way with anti-semitism. It doesn't matter what other Parties may say or do. Labour has to be cleaner and purer than the driven snow in this regard. It was under every single Leader in my lifetime. That it is not now it an indictment the current Leadership cannot escape.
    Labour has less anti semitism now than it did previously when Ed was leader.

    Building up an idea Labour is anti semitic through false accusations such as Marc Wadsworth and then using his false accusations of AS and pictures with Corbyn as proof with Corbyn. Pushing the pro Palestinian = anti semitism angle on top of that was always going to cause a problem whether the party was anti semitic or not.

    Changing policy to support the occupation of Palestine is not worth it to stop being accused of racism. To do so would be cowardly.

    But until we do people like Stephen Pollard will continue to push the line by announcing a Jewish person who supports Corbyn as an anti semite for making exactly the same Jewish pun his paper has made.

    I agree the party should kick out any and all racists but that will not satisfy many of the people gunning for Labour. Plenty of those going along with the attack have little or no interest in Israel but plenty of reasons to go against the left.

    Edit: Also the association mainly exists in the minds of people on the right and centre of the political spectrum. Those who vote Labour mostly don't believe it.
    I have quietly read your posts and the responses and I have come to the conclusion

    'You doth protest too much'
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Ishmael_Z said:



    Labour has less anti semitism now than it did previously when Ed was leader.

    Building up an idea Labour is anti semitic through false accusations such as Marc Wadsworth and then using his false accusations of AS and pictures with Corbyn as proof with Corbyn. Pushing the pro Palestinian = anti semitism angle on top of that was always going to cause a problem whether the party was anti semitic or not.

    Changing policy to support the occupation of Palestine is not worth it to stop being accused of racism. To do so would be cowardly.

    But until we do people like Stephen Pollard will continue to push the line by announcing a Jewish person who supports Corbyn as an anti semite for making exactly the same Jewish pun his paper has made.

    I agree the party should kick out any and all racists but that will not satisfy many of the people gunning for Labour. Plenty of those going along with the attack have little or no interest in Israel but plenty of reasons to go against the left.

    Edit: Also the association mainly exists in the minds of people on the right and centre of the political spectrum. Those who vote Labour mostly don't believe it.

    Don't be so utterly and offensively stupid. Can you genuinely not see that context makes the difference between using the Jew/due pun in a newspaper article about Woody Allen films, and in a serious political meeting designed to investigate claims of anti-Semitism?

    Probably you can't actually, if you can't also tell that today's line of "Don't be beastly to Laura cos she is kind to small animals" is as risible as yesterday's "Don't be beastly to Laura cos her mum's poorly innit?"

    On reflection, perhaps you are a false flag operation by CCHQ.
    On reflection you are a nutter.

    False flag operations and astroturfers everywhere...
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    TOPPING said:

    I see we are still going on the 'evil Laura Murray' with thugs like Stephen Pollard leading the charge.



    Sorry, Jezz, but 'Yeah but...' won't do.

    It is preposterous that Labour should be associated in any way with anti-semitism. It doesn't matter what other Parties may say or do. Labour has to be cleaner and purer than the driven snow in this regard. It was under every single Leader in my lifetime. That it is not now it an indictment the current Leadership cannot escape.
    Labour has less anti semitism now than it did previously when Ed was leader.

    Building up an idea Labour is anti semitic through false accusations such as Marc Wadsworth and then using his false accusations of AS and pictures with Corbyn as proof with Corbyn. Pushing the pro Palestinian = anti semitism angle on top of that was always going to cause a problem whether the party was anti semitic or not.

    Changing policy to support the occupation of Palestine is not worth it to stop being accused of racism. To do so would be cowardly.

    But until we do people like Stephen Pollard will continue to push the line by announcing a Jewish person who supports Corbyn as an anti semite for making exactly the same Jewish pun his paper has made.

    I agree the party should kick out any and all racists but that will not satisfy many of the people gunning for Labour. Plenty of those going along with the attack have little or no interest in Israel but plenty of reasons to go against the left.

    Edit: Also the association mainly exists in the minds of people on the right and centre of the political spectrum. Those who vote Labour mostly don't believe it.
    Three long-serving, respected MPs have resigned over the issue. Others have expressed support for them. How bad does it have to get before you accept there's a problem?
    Any racism is a problem TBH, if you mean it is a problem as in the leadership or large sections of the party are racist then I would say no.

    Those 3 MPs also have large ideological problems with the party and were likely to be replaced by the next election. It would be inaccurate to say this was their only problem, Ian Austin didn't like Ed let alone Corbyn.
    Corbyn didn't like Blair. Should he have been sacked from the Labour Party then?

    Or should the Party be able to be a big tent that can hold more than one opinion.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    TOPPING said:

    I see we are still going on the 'evil Laura Murray' with thugs like Stephen Pollard leading the charge.

    Here are a few Jewish people who have campaigned against anti semitism with their opinion on Laura.

    https://twitter.com/Jeremy_Newmark/status/1102921395267424256

    We can now go back to thrashing the young woman now on the say of angry old men like Stephen Pollard.

    Finally you accept that Labour has a "serious antisemitism problem". Well done you.
    As long as racism exists in society Labour will have a racism problem, as any racism is a problem.

    Be nice if you could adopt a similar approach with your own party, I won't be holding my breath.
    Sorry, Jezz, but 'Yeah but...' won't do.

    It is preposterous that Labour should be associated in any way with anti-semitism. It doesn't matter what other Parties may say or do. Labour has to be cleaner and purer than the driven snow in this regard. It was under every single Leader in my lifetime. That it is not now it an indictment the current Leadership cannot escape.
    Labour has less anti semitism now than it did previously when Ed was leader.

    Building up an idea Labour is anti semitic through false accusations such as Marc Wadsworth and then using his false accusations of AS and pictures with Corbyn as proof with Corbyn. Pushing the pro Palestinian = anti semitism angle on top of that was always going to cause a problem whether the party was anti semitic or not.

    Changing policy to support the occupation of Palestine is not worth it to stop being accused of racism. To do so would be cowardly.

    But until we do people like Stephen Pollard will continue to push the line by announcing a Jewish person who supports Corbyn as an anti semite for making exactly the same Jewish pun his paper has made.

    I agree the party should kick out any and all racists but that will not satisfy many of the people gunning for Labour. Plenty of those going along with the attack have little or no interest in Israel but plenty of reasons to go against the left.

    Edit: Also the association mainly exists in the minds of people on the right and centre of the political spectrum. Those who vote Labour mostly don't believe it.
    Those who vote Labour mostly don't want to believe it.
    Just by voting Labour they've proved they are pretty wise to the BS the Mail and the Sun usually print.
  • kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mr. 67, the current government is very unimpressive.

    And yet, Corbyn would be worse.

    I kind of feel like debating the relative merits of Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn as PM is akin to debating whether it is better or worse to have an arm amputated, or a leg. I think I can appreciate reasonable arguments for why one might be better than the other as a theoretical exercise, but mostly one just hears "voting for us is the only way to stop your leg/arm from being amputated" and that isn't really a choice that I am interested in making.
    Quite some time ago, Richard Nabavi (of this parish) stated that it was not inconceivable that we could be heading for the double whammy of a No Deal Brexit and 'Venezuela'. I think at the time this was regarded as highly unlikely, but I wouldn't be so sure now.
    Calm yourself. We are heading for a deal.
    Why do you say that? We’re 23 days away from Brexit day. There is no sign of enough MPs changing their mind and the so-called negotiations in Brussels appear to be going nowhere.

    Because no deal is impossible so that leaves a deal or no Brexit and I think even the headbangers will realise that the former, for them, is better than the latter (although it could of course go to a referendum).

    Once you realise no deal is impossible, then that leaves the improbable.
    You're misreading the Brexit mindset.

    https://twitter.com/JohnOSullivanNR/status/1102965488076967936
    Blimey, some Brexiteers are just determined to play into the hands of the remainers.
    Blimey, some Brexiteers are just determined to actually Leave.

    If you are of the opinion that the backstop leaves us trapped in, then without a unilateral exit clause we have less sovereignty in the backstop than we do in the EU. In the EU we can give 2 years notice, we've done it once we can do it again.
    I am not at all sure brexiteers are determined to leave

    Their actions are almost certainly going to prevent the dream they have had for years and 2 years ago they would have jumped for joy at TM deal.

    Purity is not on offer
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,922

    Ishmael_Z said:



    Labour has less anti semitism now than it did previously when Ed was leader.

    Building up an idea Labour is anti semitic through false accusations such as Marc Wadsworth and then using his false accusations of AS and pictures with Corbyn as proof with Corbyn. Pushing the pro Palestinian = anti semitism angle on top of that was always going to cause a problem whether the party was anti semitic or not.

    Changing policy to support the occupation of Palestine is not worth it to stop being accused of racism. To do so would be cowardly.

    But until we do people like Stephen Pollard will continue to push the line by announcing a Jewish person who supports Corbyn as an anti semite for making exactly the same Jewish pun his paper has made.

    I agree the party should kick out any and all racists but that will not satisfy many of the people gunning for Labour. Plenty of those going along with the attack have little or no interest in Israel but plenty of reasons to go against the left.

    Edit: Also the association mainly exists in the minds of people on the right and centre of the political spectrum. Those who vote Labour mostly don't believe it.

    Don't be so utterly and offensively stupid. Can you genuinely not see that context makes the difference between using the Jew/due pun in a newspaper article about Woody Allen films, and in a serious political meeting designed to investigate claims of anti-Semitism?

    Probably you can't actually, if you can't also tell that today's line of "Don't be beastly to Laura cos she is kind to small animals" is as risible as yesterday's "Don't be beastly to Laura cos her mum's poorly innit?"

    On reflection, perhaps you are a false flag operation by CCHQ.
    On reflection you are a nutter.

    False flag operations and astroturfers everywhere...
    @TheJezziah is bit of an idiot TBH :)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mr. 67, the current government is very unimpressive.

    And yet, Corbyn would be worse.

    I kind of feel like debating the relative merits of Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn as PM is akin to debating whether it is better or worse to have an arm amputated, or a leg. I think I can appreciate reasonable arguments for why one might be better than the other as a theoretical exercise, but mostly one just hears "voting for us is the only way to stop your leg/arm from being amputated" and that isn't really a choice that I am interested in making.
    Quite some time ago, Richard Nabavi (of this parish) stated that it was not inconceivable that we could be heading for the double whammy of a No Deal Brexit and 'Venezuela'. I think at the time this was regarded as highly unlikely, but I wouldn't be so sure now.
    Calm yourself. We are heading for a deal.
    Why do you say that? We’re 23 days away from Brexit day. There is no sign of enough MPs changing their mind and the so-called negotiations in Brussels appear to be going nowhere.

    Because no deal is impossible so that leaves a deal or no Brexit and I think even the headbangers will realise that the former, for them, is better than the latter (although it could of course go to a referendum).

    Once you realise no deal is impossible, then that leaves the improbable.
    You're misreading the Brexit mindset.

    https://twitter.com/JohnOSullivanNR/status/1102965488076967936
    Blimey, some Brexiteers are just determined to play into the hands of the remainers.
    Blimey, some Brexiteers are just determined to actually Leave.

    If you are of the opinion that the backstop leaves us trapped in, then without a unilateral exit clause we have less sovereignty in the backstop than we do in the EU. In the EU we can give 2 years notice, we've done it once we can do it again.
    I am not at all sure brexiteers are determined to leave
    I am 100% sure they are not. The idea we will trigger again if we remain in is highly implausible.

    Granted, I may not be a typical leaver - I'm more regretful for a start, when most have not changed their minds - but if we do remain I'm not given Leave another chance. We have the chance now, and can develop in many ways after we leave and go into transition.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    Been reading about the proposed exit manoeuvre that the EU have been working on for the backstop. Independent arbitration on whether the EU are negotiating in good faith on a trade agreement which will negate the need for the backstop coupled with a notice of exit.

    That sounds very similar to what @rcs1000 has been talking about for a while and what a lot of deal supporters have said would be possible anyway with or without the EU's consent. If a neutral expert panel agrees that the EU aren't negotiating in good faith we'd have enough momentum to unilaterally declare an end to the backstop in x years.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mr. 67, the current government is very unimpressive.

    And yet, Corbyn would be worse.

    I kind of feel like debating the relative merits of Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn as PM is akin to debating whether it is better or worse to have an arm amputated, or a leg. I think I can appreciate reasonable arguments for why one might be better than the other as a theoretical exercise, but mostly one just hears "voting for us is the only way to stop your leg/arm from being amputated" and that isn't really a choice that I am interested in making.
    Quite some time ago, Richard Nabavi (of this parish) stated that it was not inconceivable that we could be heading for the double whammy of a No Deal Brexit and 'Venezuela'. I think at the time this was regarded as highly unlikely, but I wouldn't be so sure now.
    Calm yourself. We are heading for a deal.
    Why do you say that? We’re 23 days away from Brexit day. There is no sign of enough MPs changing their mind and the so-called negotiations in Brussels appear to be going nowhere.

    Because no deal is impossible so that leaves a deal or no Brexit and I think even the headbangers will realise that the former, for them, is better than the latter (although it could of course go to a referendum).

    Once you realise no deal is impossible, then that leaves the improbable.
    You're misreading the Brexit mindset.

    https://twitter.com/JohnOSullivanNR/status/1102965488076967936
    Blimey, some Brexiteers are just determined to play into the hands of the remainers.
    Blimey, some Brexiteers are just determined to actually Leave.

    If you are of the opinion that the backstop leaves us trapped in, then without a unilateral exit clause we have less sovereignty in the backstop than we do in the EU. In the EU we can give 2 years notice, we've done it once we can do it again.
    If you think that if we remain we will ever get to leave again, I don't know what to say other than that is highly unrealistic. Leave won't get my vote again for starters. And no matter how many times some people bleat about it, we would have left under the deal. Not a good enough leave, fine, say that, but don;t lie and say we have not actually left under the deal. Because that is what it would be, an out and out lie. And a lie I don't understand, since making the point that it is not a good enough leave is perfectly logical and understandable, it's honourable even.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623
    Ishmael_Z said:

    nico67 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Wonder if anybody has a recording?
    Zzzzzzz. A meteor could be about to wipe out life on earth and the media would still be droning on about Labour .
    And the BBC could run footage of Corbyn dressed in Waffen SS uniform under an Arbeit Macht Frei arch - and you'd still refuse to see there was any news value in it....
    I’ve said on numerous occasions I’m not a fan of Corbyn . So not sure what you’re point is. I simply said I’m bored of the story.
    If you're bored of it why do you talk about it? And why does the situation arise that you have to say "on numerous occasions" that you are not a fan of Corbyn's? Its a puzzling coincidence that people are routinely making the same mistake about you.

    What you are is an astroturfer. You are so transparently bad at it that you must be an enthusiastic amateur, because no one would pay for this kind of stuff. Can I urge you to consider the possibility that you are simply embarrassing the people whose cause you think you are assisting?
    What twaddle, and what cause . I simply stated I was bored of a story . As I said I’d prefer a different Labour leader but putting that aside I don’t believe Corbyn is anti Semitic and he’s certainly done more for anti racism than many other politicians.
    OK. You are bored of it. Lots of people aren't. Which is more boring: a. a subject which is occupying most of the time of the Leader and Deputy Leader of Labour, the Gen.Sec. and the PLP and the UK's political commentators, or b. the internal mind state of a pseudonymous poster on an internet forum? So if you don't want to hear about a. why do you think anyone else wants to hear about b. - never mind, hear about it ten times an hour?

    I'll tell you a subject I tend to find boring, and that is quantum electrodynamics The reason I find it boring, is quite simply that I don't understand it. Perhaps there is a parallel to your own case somewhere in there?

    Quantum electrodynamics is actually really interesting :-P
  • kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mr. 67, the current government is very unimpressive.

    And yet, Corbyn would be worse.

    I kind of feel like debating the relative merits of Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn as PM is akin to debating whether it is better or worse to have an arm amputated, or a leg. I think I can appreciate reasonable arguments for why one might be better than the other as a theoretical exercise, but mostly one just hears "voting for us is the only way to stop your leg/arm from being amputated" and that isn't really a choice that I am interested in making.
    Quite some time ago, Richard Nabavi (of this parish) stated that it was not inconceivable that we could be heading for the double whammy of a No Deal Brexit and 'Venezuela'. I think at the time this was regarded as highly unlikely, but I wouldn't be so sure now.
    Calm yourself. We are heading for a deal.
    Why do you say that? We’re 23 days away from Brexit day. There is no sign of enough MPs changing their mind and the so-called negotiations in Brussels appear to be going nowhere.

    Because no deal is impossible so that leaves a deal or no Brexit and I think even the headbangers will realise that the former, for them, is better than the latter (although it could of course go to a referendum).

    Once you realise no deal is impossible, then that leaves the improbable.
    You're misreading the Brexit mindset.

    https://twitter.com/JohnOSullivanNR/status/1102965488076967936
    Blimey, some Brexiteers are just determined to play into the hands of the remainers.
    Blimey, some Brexiteers are just determined to actually Leave.

    If you are of the opinion that the backstop leaves us trapped in, then without a unilateral exit clause we have less sovereignty in the backstop than we do in the EU. In the EU we can give 2 years notice, we've done it once we can do it again.
    I am not at all sure brexiteers are determined to leave
    I am 100% sure they are not. The idea we will trigger again if we remain in is highly implausible.

    Granted, I may not be a typical leaver - I'm more regretful for a start, when most have not changed their minds - but if we do remain I'm not given Leave another chance. We have the chance now, and can develop in many ways after we leave and go into transition.
    I agree
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    Also the idea that if A50 is revoked that we would serve it again is so fantastically stupid that I can't believe a single person would think it's a possibility.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Just been reading the thread today.

    Politics is really stuck in a very deep hole at the moment.

    When your in a hole you should stop digging!
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Ishmael_Z said:

    nico67 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Wonder if anybody has a recording?
    Zzzzzzz. A meteor could be about to wipe out life on earth and the media would still be droning on about Labour .
    And the BBC could run footage of Corbyn dressed in Waffen SS uniform under an Arbeit Macht Frei arch - and you'd still refuse to see there was any news value in it....
    I’ve said on numerous occasions I’m not a fan of Corbyn . So not sure what you’re point is. I simply said I’m bored of the story.
    If you're bored of it why do you talk about it? And why does the situation arise that you have to say "on numerous occasions" that you are not a fan of Corbyn's? Its a puzzling coincidence that people are routinely making the same mistake about you.

    What you are is an astroturfer. You are so transparently bad at it that you must be an enthusiastic amateur, because no one would pay for this kind of stuff. Can I urge you to consider the possibility that you are simply embarrassing the people whose cause you think you are assisting?
    What twaddle, and what cause . I simply stated I was bored of a story . As I said I’d prefer a different Labour leader but putting that aside I don’t believe Corbyn is anti Semitic and he’s certainly done more for anti racism than many other politicians.
    OK. You are bored of it. Lots of people aren't. Which is more boring: a. a subject which is occupying most of the time of the Leader and Deputy Leader of Labour, the Gen.Sec. and the PLP and the UK's political commentators, or b. the internal mind state of a pseudonymous poster on an internet forum? So if you don't want to hear about a. why do you think anyone else wants to hear about b. - never mind, hear about it ten times an hour?

    I'll tell you a subject I tend to find boring, and that is quantum electrodynamics The reason I find it boring, is quite simply that I don't understand it. Perhaps there is a parallel to your own case somewhere in there?

    Quantum electrodynamics is actually really interesting :-P
    That is my point: it's not about QED, it's about me.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited March 2019

    kle4 said:



    Blimey, some Brexiteers are just determined to play into the hands of the remainers.

    Blimey, some Brexiteers are just determined to actually Leave.

    If you are of the opinion that the backstop leaves us trapped in, then without a unilateral exit clause we have less sovereignty in the backstop than we do in the EU. In the EU we can give 2 years notice, we've done it once we can do it again.
    I am not at all sure brexiteers are determined to leave

    Their actions are almost certainly going to prevent the dream they have had for years and 2 years ago they would have jumped for joy at TM deal.

    Purity is not on offer
    This isn't the dream though.

    If you have a dream of buying a holiday home in Hawaii and are told that you can get somewhere in Hawaii in 2 years, then a few months before you are due to complete you find out what you've been sold is actually a dodgy timeshare in Spain and not your own holiday home in Hawaii ... and your solicitor advises you that if you proceed with this dodgy timeshare you'll be stuck with it forever unless those who sold you the timeshare let you out of the contract ... and that if you proceed with this timeshare you'll never be able to afford what you wanted ...

    ... would you proceed with getting this timeshare as it's better than nothing? Or would you walk away?
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    TOPPING said:

    I see we are still going on the 'evil Laura Murray' with thugs like Stephen Pollard leading the charge.



    Labour has less anti semitism now than it did previously when Ed was leader.

    Building up an idea Labour is anti semitic through false accusations such as Marc Wadsworth and then using his false accusations of AS and pictures with Corbyn as proof with Corbyn. Pushing the pro Palestinian = anti semitism angle on top of that was always going to cause a problem whether the party was anti semitic or not.

    Changing policy to support the occupation of Palestine is not worth it to stop being accused of racism. To do so would be cowardly.

    But until we do people like Stephen Pollard will continue to push the line by announcing a Jewish person who supports Corbyn as an anti semite for making exactly the same Jewish pun his paper has made.

    I agree the party should kick out any and all racists but that will not satisfy many of the people gunning for Labour. Plenty of those going along with the attack have little or no interest in Israel but plenty of reasons to go against the left.

    Edit: Also the association mainly exists in the minds of people on the right and centre of the political spectrum. Those who vote Labour mostly don't believe it.
    Three long-serving, respected MPs have resigned over the issue. Others have expressed support for them. How bad does it have to get before you accept there's a problem?
    Any racism is a problem TBH, if you mean it is a problem as in the leadership or large sections of the party are racist then I would say no.

    Those 3 MPs also have large ideological problems with the party and were likely to be replaced by the next election. It would be inaccurate to say this was their only problem, Ian Austin didn't like Ed let alone Corbyn.
    Corbyn didn't like Blair. Should he have been sacked from the Labour Party then?

    Or should the Party be able to be a big tent that can hold more than one opinion.
    George Galloway left when Blair was leader, this lot left when Corbyn was leader. Those who can't accept the opposite side of the party being in the leadership are the ones who rejected the broad church.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    edited March 2019
    If you have a dream of buying a holiday home in Hawaii and are told that you can get somewhere in Hawaii in 2 years, then a few months before you are due to complete you find out what you've been sold is actually a dodgy timeshare in Spain and not your own holiday home in Hawaii ... and your solicitor advises you that if you proceed with this dodgy timeshare you'll be stuck with it forever unless those who sold you the timeshare let you out of the contract ... and that if you proceed with this timeshare you'll never be able to afford what you wanted ...

    ... would you proceed with getting this timeshare as it's better than nothing? Or would you walk away?


    If A50 is revoked Brexit is done. Seriously. We will have lost any chance of leaving for at least 20-25 years and in the process given up any last crumbs of influence we had in the commission.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    TOPPING said:

    I see we are still going on the 'evil Laura Murray' with thugs like Stephen Pollard leading the charge.



    Labour has less anti semitism now than it did previously when Ed was leader.

    Building up an idea Labour is anti semitic through false accusations such as Marc Wadsworth and then using his false accusations of AS and pictures with Corbyn as proof with Corbyn. Pushing the pro Palestinian = anti semitism angle on top of that was always going to cause a problem whether the party was anti semitic or not.

    Changing policy to support the occupation of Palestine is not worth it to stop being accused of racism. To do so would be cowardly.

    But until we do people like Stephen Pollard will continue to push the line by announcing a Jewish person who supports Corbyn as an anti semite for making exactly the same Jewish pun his paper has made.

    I agree the party should kick out any and all racists but that will not satisfy many of the people gunning for Labour. Plenty of those going along with the attack have little or no interest in Israel but plenty of reasons to go against the left.

    Edit: Also the association mainly exists in the minds of people on the right and centre of the political spectrum. Those who vote Labour mostly don't believe it.
    Three long-serving, respected MPs have resigned over the issue. Others have expressed support for them. How bad does it have to get before you accept there's a problem?
    Any racism is a problem TBH, if you mean it is a problem as in the leadership or large sections of the party are racist then I would say no.

    Those 3 MPs also have large ideological problems with the party and were likely to be replaced by the next election. It would be inaccurate to say this was their only problem, Ian Austin didn't like Ed let alone Corbyn.
    Corbyn didn't like Blair. Should he have been sacked from the Labour Party then?

    Or should the Party be able to be a big tent that can hold more than one opinion.
    George Galloway left when Blair was leader, this lot left when Corbyn was leader. Those who can't accept the opposite side of the party being in the leadership are the ones who rejected the broad church.

    Galloway didn't leave. He was expelled.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789


    ... would you proceed with getting this timeshare as it's better than nothing? Or would you walk away?

    Are you now defining walking away as revoking Article 50?
  • kle4 said:



    Blimey, some Brexiteers are just determined to play into the hands of the remainers.

    Blimey, some Brexiteers are just determined to actually Leave.

    If you are of the opinion that the backstop leaves us trapped in, then without a unilateral exit clause we have less sovereignty in the backstop than we do in the EU. In the EU we can give 2 years notice, we've done it once we can do it again.
    I am not at all sure brexiteers are determined to leave

    Their actions are almost certainly going to prevent the dream they have had for years and 2 years ago they would have jumped for joy at TM deal.

    Purity is not on offer
    This isn't the dream though.

    If you have a dream of buying a holiday home in Hawaii and are told that you can get somewhere in Hawaii in 2 years, then a few months before you are due to complete you find out what you've been sold is actually a dodgy timeshare in Spain and not your own holiday home in Hawaii ... and your solicitor advises you that if you proceed with this dodgy timeshare you'll be stuck with it forever unless those who sold you the timeshare let you out of the contract ... and that if you proceed with this timeshare you'll never be able to afford what you wanted ...

    ... would you proceed with getting this timeshare as it's better than nothing? Or would you walk away?
    With respect brexiteers are likely to lose it all because of their actions and I have no sympathy
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mr. 67, the current government is very unimpressive.

    And yet, Corbyn would be worse.

    I kind of feel like debating the relative merits of Theresa , but mostly one just hears "voting for us is the only way to stop your leg/arm from being amputated" and that isn't really a choice that I am interested in making.
    Quite some time ago, Richard Nabavi (of this parish) stated that it was not inconceivable that we could be heading for the double whammy of a No Deal Brexit and 'Venezuela'. I think at the time this was regarded as highly unlikely, but I wouldn't be so sure now.
    Calm yourself. We are heading for a deal.
    Why do you say that? We’re 23 days away from Brexit day. There is no sign of enough MPs changing their mind and the so-called negotiations in Brussels appear to be going nowhere.

    Because no deal is impossible so that leaves a deal or no Brexit and I think even the headbangers will realise that the former, for them, is better than the latter (although it could of course go to a referendum).

    Once you realise no deal is impossible, then that leaves the improbable.
    You're misreading the Brexit mindset.

    https://twitter.com/JohnOSullivanNR/status/1102965488076967936
    Blimey, some Brexiteers are just determined to play into the hands of the remainers.
    Blimey, some Brexiteers are just determined to actually Leave.

    If you are of the opinion that the backstop leaves us trapped in, then without a unilateral exit clause we have less sovereignty in the backstop than we do in the EU. In the EU we can give 2 years notice, we've done it once we can do it again.
    If you think that if we remain we will ever get to leave again, I don't know what to say other than that is highly unrealistic. Leave won't get my vote again for starters. And no matter how many times some people bleat about it, we would have left under the deal. Not a good enough leave, fine, say that, but don;t lie and say we have not actually left under the deal. Because that is what it would be, an out and out lie. And a lie I don't understand, since making the point that it is not a good enough leave is perfectly logical and understandable, it's honourable even.
    You are right. If we ever get off this horror train, public appetite for going back round to the kiosk and paying for another ride will be negligible.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826


    ... would you proceed with getting this timeshare as it's better than nothing? Or would you walk away?

    Are you now defining walking away as revoking Article 50?
    I've consistently said without a unilateral exit that's better than this deal for months. If it comes to that.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    TOPPING said:

    I see we are still going on the 'evil Laura Murray' with thugs like Stephen Pollard leading the charge.

    Here are a few Jewish people who have campaigned against anti semitism with their opinion on Laura.

    https://twitter.com/Jeremy_Newmark/status/1102921395267424256

    We can now go back to thrashing the young woman now on the say of angry old men like Stephen Pollard.

    Finally you accept that Labour has a "serious antisemitism problem". Well done you.
    As long as racism exists in society Labour will have a racism problem, as any racism is a problem.

    Be nice if you could adopt a similar approach with your own party, I won't be holding my breath.
    Sorry, Jezz, but 'Yeah but...' won't do.

    It is preposterous that Labour should be associated in any way with anti-semitism. It doesn't matter what other Parties may say or do. Labour has to be cleaner and purer than the driven snow in this regard. It was under every single Leader in my lifetime. That it is not now it an indictment the current Leadership cannot escape.
    Labour has less anti semitism now than it did previously when Ed was leader.

    Building up an idea Labour is anti semitic through false accusations such as Marc Wadsworth and then using his false accusations of AS and pictures with Corbyn as proof with Corbyn. Pushing the pro Palestinian = anti semitism angle on top of that was always going to cause a problem whether the party was anti semitic or not.

    Changing policy to support the occupation of Palestine is not worth it to stop being accused of racism. To do so would be cowardly.

    But until we do people like Stephen Pollard will continue to push the line by announcing a Jewish person who supports Corbyn as an anti semite for making exactly the same Jewish pun his paper has made.

    I agree the party should kick out any and all racists but that will not satisfy many of the people gunning for Labour. Plenty of those going along with the attack have little or no interest in Israel but plenty of reasons to go against the left.

    Edit: Also the association mainly exists in the minds of people on the right and centre of the political spectrum. Those who vote Labour mostly don't believe it.
    I have quietly read your posts and the responses and I have come to the conclusion

    'You doth protest too much'
    A solid logical argument.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603


    ... would you proceed with getting this timeshare as it's better than nothing? Or would you walk away?

    Are you now defining walking away as revoking Article 50?
    I've consistently said without a unilateral exit that's better than this deal for months. If it comes to that.
    But unilateral exit from the backstop isn't a option?! Honestly, I fail to understand your logic.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    kle4 said:



    Blimey, some Brexiteers are just determined to play into the hands of the remainers.

    Blimey, some Brexiteers are just determined to actually Leave.

    If you are of the opinion that the backstop leaves us trapped in, then without a unilateral exit clause we have less sovereignty in the backstop than we do in the EU. In the EU we can give 2 years notice, we've done it once we can do it again.
    I am not at all sure brexiteers are determined to leave

    Their actions are almost certainly going to prevent the dream they have had for years and 2 years ago they would have jumped for joy at TM deal.

    Purity is not on offer
    This isn't the dream though.

    If you have a dream of buying a holiday home in Hawaii and are told that you can get somewhere in Hawaii in 2 years, then a few months before you are due to complete you find out what you've been sold is actually a dodgy timeshare in Spain and not your own holiday home in Hawaii ... and your solicitor advises you that if you proceed with this dodgy timeshare you'll be stuck with it forever unless those who sold you the timeshare let you out of the contract ... and that if you proceed with this timeshare you'll never be able to afford what you wanted ...

    ... would you proceed with getting this timeshare as it's better than nothing? Or would you walk away?
    With respect brexiteers are likely to lose it all because of their actions and I have no sympathy
    So be it. If the choice is dodgy timeshare or lose it all then lose it all is better.

    Would you go for a dodgy timeshare in their shoes? If that's how you viewed it?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    edited March 2019
    Swastika daubed on WW1 war memorial in Deeside triggering fury

    What is happening to our Country
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959

    TOPPING said:

    I see we are still going on the 'evil Laura Murray' with thugs like Stephen Pollard leading the charge.

    Here are a few Jewish people who have campaigned against anti semitism with their opinion on Laura.

    https://twitter.com/Jeremy_Newmark/status/1102921395267424256

    We can now go back to thrashing the young woman now on the say of angry old men like Stephen Pollard.

    Finally you accept that Labour has a "serious antisemitism problem". Well done you.
    As long as racism exists in society Labour will have a racism problem, as any racism is a problem.

    Be nice if you could adopt a similar approach with your own party, I won't be holding my breath.
    Sorry, Jezz, but 'Yeah but...' won't do.

    It is preposterous that Labour should be associated in any way with anti-semitism. It doesn't matter what other Parties may say or do. Labour has to be cleaner and purer than the driven snow in this regard. It was under every single Leader in my lifetime. That it is not now it an indictment the current Leadership cannot escape.
    Labour has less anti semitism now than it did previously when Ed was leader.

    Building up an idea Labour is anti semitic through false accusations such as Marc Wadsworth and then using his false accusations of AS and pictures with Corbyn as proof with Corbyn. Pushing the pro Palestinian = anti semitism angle on top of that was always going to cause a problem whether the party was anti semitic or not.

    Changing policy to support the occupation of Palestine is not worth it to stop being accused of racism. To do so would be cowardly.

    But until we do people like Stephen Pollard will continue to push the line by announcing a Jewish person who supports Corbyn as an anti semite for making exactly the same Jewish pun his paper has made.

    I agree the party should kick out any and all racists but that will not satisfy many of the people gunning for Labour. Plenty of those going along with the attack have little or no interest in Israel but plenty of reasons to go against the left.

    Edit: Also the association mainly exists in the minds of people on the right and centre of the political spectrum. Those who vote Labour mostly don't believe it.
    Those who vote Labour mostly don't want to believe it.
    Just by voting Labour they've proved they are pretty wise to the BS the Mail and the Sun usually print.
    Ask OGH. He voted Labour in 2017.....
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    TOPPING said:

    I see we are still going on the 'evil Laura Murray' with thugs like Stephen Pollard leading the charge.




    But until we do people like Stephen Pollard will continue to push the line by announcing a Jewish person who supports Corbyn as an anti semite for making exactly the same Jewish pun his paper has made.

    I agree the party should kick out any and all racists but that will not satisfy many of the people gunning for Labour. Plenty of those going along with the attack have little or no interest in Israel but plenty of reasons to go against the left.

    Edit: Also the association mainly exists in the minds of people on the right and centre of the political spectrum. Those who vote Labour mostly don't believe it.
    Three long-serving, respected MPs have resigned over the issue. Others have expressed support for them. How bad does it have to get before you accept there's a problem?
    Any racism is a problem TBH, if you mean it is a problem as in the leadership or large sections of the party are racist then I would say no.

    Those 3 MPs also have large ideological problems with the party and were likely to be replaced by the next election. It would be inaccurate to say this was their only problem, Ian Austin didn't like Ed let alone Corbyn.
    Corbyn didn't like Blair. Should he have been sacked from the Labour Party then?

    Or should the Party be able to be a big tent that can hold more than one opinion.
    George Galloway left when Blair was leader, this lot left when Corbyn was leader. Those who can't accept the opposite side of the party being in the leadership are the ones who rejected the broad church.

    Galloway didn't leave. He was expelled.
    A minor technicality!

    Fair play my error. He was happy to get himself expelled as he disagreed that strongly with the leadership, not quite what I said originally though.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    MaxPB said:


    ... would you proceed with getting this timeshare as it's better than nothing? Or would you walk away?

    Are you now defining walking away as revoking Article 50?
    I've consistently said without a unilateral exit that's better than this deal for months. If it comes to that.
    But unilateral exit from the backstop isn't a option?! Honestly, I fail to understand your logic.
    If we can unilaterally exit from the backstop it's no big deal and sign it tomorrow.

    As agreed currently though we can't.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723
    Number of patients having to wait over 4 hours for a bed in A&E:

    2010: 83,743
    2018: 641,963

  • ... would you proceed with getting this timeshare as it's better than nothing? Or would you walk away?

    Are you now defining walking away as revoking Article 50?
    It is becoming more likely day by day that brexit will either be BINO or no brexit, and if no brexit we will not leave again in decades if ever
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    MaxPB said:


    ... would you proceed with getting this timeshare as it's better than nothing? Or would you walk away?

    Are you now defining walking away as revoking Article 50?
    I've consistently said without a unilateral exit that's better than this deal for months. If it comes to that.
    But unilateral exit from the backstop isn't a option?! Honestly, I fail to understand your logic.
    If we can unilaterally exit from the backstop it's no big deal and sign it tomorrow.

    As agreed currently though we can't.
    Yes we can. The government can repeal the withdrawal agreement and call it a day.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    TOPPING said:



    Finally you accept that Labour has a "serious antisemitism problem". Well done you.
    As long as racism exists in society Labour will have a racism problem, as any racism is a problem.

    Be nice if you could adopt a similar approach with your own party, I won't be holding my breath.
    Sorry, Jezz, but 'Yeah but...' won't do.

    It is preposterous that Labour should be associated in any way with anti-semitism. It doesn't matter what other Parties may say or do. Labour has to be cleaner and purer than the driven snow in this regard. It was under every single Leader in my lifetime. That it is not now it an indictment the current Leadership cannot escape.
    Labour has less anti semitism now than it did previously when Ed was leader.

    Building up an idea Labour is anti semitic through false accusations such as Marc Wadsworth and then using his false accusations of AS and pictures with Corbyn as proof with Corbyn. Pushing the pro Palestinian = anti semitism angle on top of that was always going to cause a problem whether the party was anti semitic or not.

    Changing policy to support the occupation of Palestine is not worth it to stop being accused of racism. To do so would be cowardly.

    But until we do people like Stephen Pollard will continue to push the line by announcing a Jewish person who supports Corbyn as an anti semite for making exactly the same Jewish pun his paper has made.

    I agree the party should kick out any and all racists but that will not satisfy many of the people gunning for Labour. Plenty of those going along with the attack have little or no interest in Israel but plenty of reasons to go against the left.

    Edit: Also the association mainly exists in the minds of people on the right and centre of the political spectrum. Those who vote Labour mostly don't believe it.
    Those who vote Labour mostly don't want to believe it.
    Just by voting Labour they've proved they are pretty wise to the BS the Mail and the Sun usually print.
    Ask OGH. He voted Labour in 2017.....
    I think we recently had a discussion about how representative a sample OGH is of Britain. I think the conclusion was probably along the lines of not much more than many other individuals on PB.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959

    Swastika daubed on WW1 war memorial in Deeside triggering fury

    What is happening to our Country

    It's likely a 13 year old. He'll probably be loving the national - international? - attention his* idiocy has provoked. Such is the power of the internet....

    *It'll be a guy.
  • Number of patients having to wait over 4 hours for a bed in A&E:

    2010: 83,743
    2018: 641,963

    How many patients treated in 2010 and 2018 to put a context in your comment
  • blueblueblueblue Posts: 875

    TOPPING said:

    I see we are still going on the 'evil Laura Murray' with thugs like Stephen Pollard leading the charge.

    Here are a few Jewish people who have campaigned against anti semitism with their opinion on Laura.

    https://twitter.com/Jeremy_Newmark/status/1102921395267424256

    We can now go back to thrashing the young woman now on the say of angry old men like Stephen Pollard.

    Finally you accept that Labour has a "serious antisemitism problem". Well done you.
    As long as racism exists in society Labour will have a racism problem, as any racism is a problem.

    Be nice if you could adopt a similar approach with your own party, I won't be holding my breath.
    Sorry, Jezz, but 'Yeah but...' won't do.

    It is preposterous that Labour should be associated in any way with anti-semitism. It doesn't matter what other Parties may say or do. Labour has to be cleaner and purer than the driven snow in this regard. It was under every single Leader in my lifetime. That it is not now it an indictment the current Leadership cannot escape.
    Labour has less anti semitism now than it did previously when Ed was leader.

    Building up an idea Labour is anti semitic through false accusations such as Marc Wadsworth and then using his false accusations of AS and pictures with Corbyn as proof with Corbyn. Pushing the pro Palestinian = anti semitism angle on top of that was always going to cause a problem whether the party was anti semitic or not.

    Changing policy to support the occupation of Palestine is not worth it to stop being accused of racism. To do so would be cowardly.

    But until we do people like Stephen Pollard will continue to push the line by announcing a Jewish person who supports Corbyn as an anti semite for making exactly the same Jewish pun his paper has made.

    I agree the party should kick out any and all racists but that will not satisfy many of the people gunning for Labour. Plenty of those going along with the attack have little or no interest in Israel but plenty of reasons to go against the left.

    Edit: Also the association mainly exists in the minds of people on the right and centre of the political spectrum. Those who vote Labour mostly don't believe it.
    Those who vote Labour mostly don't want to believe it.
    Just by voting Labour they've proved they are pretty wise to the BS the Mail and the Sun usually print.
    Voting Labour may prove many things ... but wisdom ain't one of them!
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723
    Number of people on Zero Hours Contracts

    2010 - 163,000
    2018 - 780,000
  • MaxPB said:


    ... would you proceed with getting this timeshare as it's better than nothing? Or would you walk away?

    Are you now defining walking away as revoking Article 50?
    I've consistently said without a unilateral exit that's better than this deal for months. If it comes to that.
    But unilateral exit from the backstop isn't a option?! Honestly, I fail to understand your logic.
    If we can unilaterally exit from the backstop it's no big deal and sign it tomorrow.

    As agreed currently though we can't.
    It is not going to happen.

    It will only be possible through arbitration by the sounds of it, which is a fair and honest way of dealing with any treaty dispute
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,749

    Swastika daubed on WW1 war memorial in Deeside triggering fury

    What is happening to our Country

    It suggests a disgraceful ahistoriticism is creeping into the national (sic) psyche.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    Swastika daubed on WW1 war memorial in Deeside triggering fury

    What is happening to our Country

    It's likely a 13 year old. He'll probably be loving the national - international? - attention his* idiocy has provoked. Such is the power of the internet....

    *It'll be a guy.
    Multiple charges*, vandalism, supporting the wrong side and the historical inaccuracy!

    *Against his character.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723
    Number of State Pupils taught in large class sizes (over 36)

    2010 - 6107

    2017 - 19455
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233
    IanB2 said:

    The long view: Napoleon's pitching up in Egypt in 1708 was the moment that demonstrated western superiority to the Islamic world that sowed the seed for many of the problems we face today.

    Cough cough battle of Tours cough cough Charles Martel cough cough 732 AD
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Number of State Pupils taught in large class sizes (over 36)

    2010 - 6107

    2017 - 19455

    What about the number of squirrels over the same period? :p
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723

    Number of patients having to wait over 4 hours for a bed in A&E:

    2010: 83,743
    2018: 641,963

    How many patients treated in 2010 and 2018 to put a context in your comment
    Not 8 times as many.
  • Number of people on Zero Hours Contracts

    2010 - 163,000
    2018 - 780,000

    You are so funny.

    Request a statstic and you fire off another unrelated on

    And zero hour contracts suit many people's flexible approach to work
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723
    RobD said:

    Number of State Pupils taught in large class sizes (over 36)

    2010 - 6107

    2017 - 19455

    What about the number of squirrels over the same period? :p
    They do not collect that statistic.

    Are you not in the least concerned by the state of the NHS, schools, unsecured employment. police numbers, knife crimes, disabled suicides?
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    kle4 said:


    I am 100% sure they are not. The idea we will trigger again if we remain in is highly implausible.

    Granted, I may not be a typical leaver - I'm more regretful for a start, when most have not changed their minds - but if we do remain I'm not given Leave another chance. We have the chance now, and can develop in many ways after we leave and go into transition.

    A pretty good rule of thumb throughout Brexit has been "when somebody states their position, believe them, unless they're Theresa May". When the EU says they're not going to time-limit the backstop (because then it's not a backstop), believe them. When some Leavers say they think that the backstop is a trap, or that May's deal is worse than Remain, believe them. When May says no deal is better than a bad deal, or that no PM would sign up to the backstop, or that it's her deal or no deal, or that it's her deal or Remain, or that she's not running down the clock, or that she's going to engage in a huge listening exercise... don't believe her.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    Number of people on Zero Hours Contracts

    2010 - 163,000
    2018 - 780,000

    All of these issues are being brushed under the carpet by Brexit.

    It’s another reason why no social democrat should support it.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    nico67 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Wonder if anybody has a recording?
    Zzzzzzz. A meteor could be about to wipe out life on earth and the media would still be droning on about Labour .
    And the BBC could run footage of Corbyn dressed in Waffen SS uniform under an Arbeit Macht Frei arch - and you'd still refuse to see there was any news value in it....
    I’ve said on numerous occasions I’m not a fan of Corbyn . So not sure what you’re point is. I simply said I’m bored of the story.
    If you're bored of it why do you talk about it? And why does the situation arise that you have to say "on numerous occasions" that you are not a fan of Corbyn's? Its a puzzling coincidence that people are routinely making the same mistake about you.

    What you are is an astroturfer. You are so transparently bad at it that you must be an enthusiastic amateur, because no one would pay for this kind of stuff. Can I urge you to consider the possibility that you are simply embarrassing the people whose cause you think you are assisting?
    What twaddle, and what cause . I simply stated I was bored of a story . As I said I’d prefer a different Labour leader but putting that aside I don’t believe Corbyn is anti Semitic and he’s certainly done more for anti racism than many other politicians.
    OK. You are bored of it. Lots of people aren't. Which is more boring: a. a subject which is occupying most of the time of the Leader and Deputy Leader of Labour, the Gen.Sec. and the PLP and the UK's political commentators, or b. the internal mind state of a pseudonymous poster on an internet forum? So if you don't want to hear about a. why do you think anyone else wants to hear about b. - never mind, hear about it ten times an hour?

    I'll tell you a subject I tend to find boring, and that is quantum electrodynamics The reason I find it boring, is quite simply that I don't understand it. Perhaps there is a parallel to your own case somewhere in there?

    Quantum electrodynamics is actually really interesting :-P
    That is my point: it's not about QED, it's about me.
    Your argument about QED is logically coherent and has reached a conclusion that proves your point. If only there was a three-letter-acronym I could use to indicate this... :)
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723

    Number of people on Zero Hours Contracts

    2010 - 163,000
    2018 - 780,000

    You are so funny.

    Request a statstic and you fire off another unrelated on

    And zero hour contracts suit many people's flexible approach to work
    85% of people on zero hrs contracts would prefer not to be.

    What statistic would you like next?

  • TOPPING said:

    I see we are still going on the 'evil Laura Murray' with thugs like Stephen Pollard leading the charge.



    Sorry, Jezz, but 'Yeah but...' won't do.

    It is preposterous that Labour should be associated in any way with anti-semitism. It doesn't matter what other Parties may say or do. Labour has to be cleaner and purer than the driven snow in this regard. It was under every single Leader in my lifetime. That it is not now it an indictment the current Leadership cannot escape.
    Labour has less anti semitism now than it did previously when Ed was leader.

    Building up an idea Labour is anti semitic through false accusations such as Marc Wadsworth and then using his false accusations of AS and pictures with Corbyn as proof with Corbyn. Pushing the pro Palestinian = anti semitism angle on top of that was always going to cause a problem whether the party was anti semitic or not.

    Changing policy to support the occupation of Palestine is not worth it to stop being accused of racism. To do so would be cowardly.

    But until we do people like Stephen Pollard will continue to push the line by announcing a Jewish person who supports Corbyn as an anti semite for making exactly the same Jewish pun his paper has made.

    I agree the party should kick out any and all racists but that will not satisfy many of the people gunning for Labour. Plenty of those going along with the attack have little or no interest in Israel but plenty of reasons to go against the left.

    Edit: Also the association mainly exists in the minds of people on the right and centre of the political spectrum. Those who vote Labour mostly don't believe it.
    Three long-serving, respected MPs have resigned over the issue. Others have expressed support for them. How bad does it have to get before you accept there's a problem?
    Any racism is a problem TBH, if you mean it is a problem as in the leadership or large sections of the party are racist then I would say no.

    Those 3 MPs also have large ideological problems with the party and were likely to be replaced by the next election. It would be inaccurate to say this was their only problem, Ian Austin didn't like Ed let alone Corbyn.
    These three MPs specifically cited ant-semitism as their main reason for leaving. Even if there were no other causes for concern, this in itself would be serious enough.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    Number of people on Zero Hours Contracts

    2010 - 163,000
    2018 - 780,000

    You are so funny.

    Request a statstic and you fire off another unrelated on

    And zero hour contracts suit many people's flexible approach to work
    85% of people on zero hrs contracts would prefer not to be.

    What statistic would you like next?

    How many MPs have left the Labour party because of racism?
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,960

    Number of people on Zero Hours Contracts

    2010 - 163,000
    2018 - 780,000

    You are so funny.

    Request a statstic and you fire off another unrelated on

    And zero hour contracts suit many people's flexible approach to work
    85% of people on zero hrs contracts would prefer not to be.

    What statistic would you like next?

    Number of people in full time employment?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Viewcode, Charles Martel should be better remembered than he is, I think.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,960

    Number of people on Zero Hours Contracts

    2010 - 163,000
    2018 - 780,000

    All of these issues are being brushed under the carpet by Brexit.

    It’s another reason why no social democrat should support it.
    Maybe the social democrats should be helping to expedite it, so they can go back to focusing on the other stuff.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Number of people on Zero Hours Contracts

    2010 - 163,000
    2018 - 780,000

    You are so funny.

    Request a statstic and you fire off another unrelated on

    And zero hour contracts suit many people's flexible approach to work
    85% of people on zero hrs contracts would prefer not to be.

    What statistic would you like next?

    Percentage of non-pensioner households where no-one works?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mr. 67, the current government is very unimpressive.

    And yet, Corbyn would be worse.

    I kind of feel like debating the relative merits of Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn as PM is akin to debating whether it is better or worse to have an arm amputated, or a leg. I think I can appreciate reasonable arguments for why one might be better than the other as a theoretical exercise, but mostly one just hears "voting for us is the only way to stop your leg/arm from being amputated" and that isn't really a choice that I am interested in making.
    Quite some time ago, Richard Nabavi (of this parish) stated that it was not inconceivable that we could be heading for the double whammy of a No Deal Brexit and 'Venezuela'. I think at the time this was regarded as highly unlikely, but I wouldn't be so sure now.
    Calm yourself. We are heading for a deal.
    Why do you say that? We’re 23 days away from Brexit day. There is no sign of enough MPs changing their mind and the so-called negotiations in Brussels appear to be going nowhere.

    Because no deal is impossible so that leaves a deal or no Brexit and I think even the headbangers will realise that the former, for them, is better than the latter (although it could of course go to a referendum).

    Once you realise no deal is impossible, then that leaves the improbable.
    You're misreading the Brexit mindset.

    https://twitter.com/JohnOSullivanNR/status/1102965488076967936
    Blimey, some Brexiteers are just determined to play into the hands of the remainers.
    Blimey, some Brexiteers are just determined to actually Leave.

    If you are of the opinion that the backstop leaves us trapped in, then without a unilateral exit clause we have less sovereignty in the backstop than we do in the EU. In the EU we can give 2 years notice, we've done it once we can do it again.
    I think that is pie in the sky. If we do not leave now we will never get another opportunity. Parliament will make sure of that. Basically you are saying that because you don't like your own misguided interpretation of the Backstop we should remain in the EU permanently.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mr. 67, the current government is very unimpressive.

    And yet, Corbyn would be worse.

    I kind of feel like debating the relative merits of Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn as PM is akin to debating whether it is better or worse to have an arm amputated, or a leg. I think I can appreciate reasonable arguments for why one might be better than the other as a theoretical exercise, but mostly one just hears "voting for us is the only way to stop your leg/arm from being amputated" and that isn't really a choice that I am interested in making.
    Quite some time ago, Richard Nabavi (of this parish) stated that it was not inconceivable that we could be heading for the double whammy of a No Deal Brexit and 'Venezuela'. I think at the time this was regarded as highly unlikely, but I wouldn't be so sure now.
    Calm yourself. We are heading for a deal.
    Why do you say that? We’re 23 days away from Brexit day. There is no sign of enough MPs changing their mind and the so-called negotiations in Brussels appear to be going nowhere.

    Because no deal is impossible so that leaves a deal or no Brexit and I think even the headbangers will realise that the former, for them, is better than the latter (although it could of course go to a referendum).

    Once you realise no deal is impossible, then that leaves the improbable.
    You're misreading the Brexit mindset.

    https://twitter.com/JohnOSullivanNR/status/1102965488076967936
    Blimey, some Brexiteers are just determined to play into the hands of the remainers.
    John O'Sullivan would rather have something to complain about than to actually get what he says he wants.
    I used to think it was just Peter Hitchens.

    Turns out there are loads of them.
  • I used to think it was just Peter Hitchens.

    Turns out there are loads of them.

    There are only two tragedies in life: one is not getting what one wants, and the other is getting it.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    TOPPING said:

    Mr. 67, the current government is very unimpressive.

    And yet, Corbyn would be worse.

    I kind of feel like debating the relative merits of Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn as PM is akin to debating whether it is better or worse to have an arm amputated, or a leg. I think I can appreciate reasonable arguments for why one might be better than the other as a theoretical exercise, but mostly one just hears "voting for us is the only way to stop your leg/arm from being amputated" and that isn't really a choice that I am interested in making.
    Quite some time ago, Richard Nabavi (of this parish) stated that it was not inconceivable that we could be heading for the double whammy of a No Deal Brexit and 'Venezuela'. I think at the time this was regarded as highly unlikely, but I wouldn't be so sure now.
    Calm yourself. We are heading for a deal.
    I wish I shared your confidence.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723

    Number of patients having to wait over 4 hours for a bed in A&E:

    2010: 83,743
    2018: 641,963

    How many patients treated in 2010 and 2018 to put a context in your comment
    Well over 97% were seen within 4 hrs in 2010

    Its now 81.5%

    So 641k represents 18.5% ie3.46m
    2010 equivalent was 84k represents 3% ie 2.78m


    The current figure is the worst ever in raw number percentages or any other way you wish to count it.

    Open your eyes
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723
    Endillion said:

    Number of people on Zero Hours Contracts

    2010 - 163,000
    2018 - 780,000

    You are so funny.

    Request a statstic and you fire off another unrelated on

    And zero hour contracts suit many people's flexible approach to work
    85% of people on zero hrs contracts would prefer not to be.

    What statistic would you like next?

    Number of people in full time employment?
    By FT Employment what do you mean?

    Govt counts 1hr per fortnight as employed

    Carers as FT employed. Self employed even with zero turnover as employed

    So depends what you mean
  • NEW THREAD

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233

    Mr. Viewcode, Charles Martel should be better remembered than he is, I think.

    Indeed. It's one of those things, like the Mongol Wars, that's absolutely amazing when you look at it. History could have ended up very different.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    Just been reading the thread today.

    Politics is really stuck in a very deep hole at the moment.

    When your in a hole you should stop digging!

    just going round in a little circle of despair
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    TOPPING said:

    I see we are still going on the 'evil Laura Murray' with thugs like Stephen Pollard leading the charge.



    Labour has less anti semitism now than it did previously when Ed was leader.

    Building up an idea Labour is anti semitic through false accusations such as Marc Wadsworth and then using his false accusations of AS and pictures with Corbyn as proof with Corbyn. Pushing the pro Palestinian = anti semitism angle on top of that was always going to cause a problem whether the party was anti semitic or not.

    Changing policy to support the occupation of Palestine is not worth it to stop being accused of racism. To do so would be cowardly.

    But until we do people like Stephen Pollard will continue to push the line by announcing a Jewish person who supports Corbyn as an anti semite for making exactly the same Jewish pun his paper has made.

    I agree the party should kick out any and all racists but that will not satisfy many of the people gunning for Labour. Plenty of those going along with the attack have little or no interest in Israel but plenty of reasons to go against the left.

    Edit: Also the association mainly exists in the minds of people on the right and centre of the political spectrum. Those who vote Labour mostly don't believe it.
    Three long-serving, respected MPs have resigned over the issue. Others have expressed support for them. How bad does it have to get before you accept there's a problem?
    Any racism is a problem TBH, if you mean it is a problem as in the leadership or large sections of the party are racist then I would say no.

    Those 3 MPs also have large ideological problems with the party and were likely to be replaced by the next election. It would be inaccurate to say this was their only problem, Ian Austin didn't like Ed let alone Corbyn.
    These three MPs specifically cited ant-semitism as their main reason for leaving. Even if there were no other causes for concern, this in itself would be serious enough.
    TBH some of them have some very strange views, one Labour MP in the party and one recently departed both made comments linking being Jewish and capitalism, from a positive point of view but implying that those who are to the left of them economically are anti semitic.

    Plenty of Jewish people on twitter jumped on this, being left wing themselves. Arguably it shows a confused mindset or that they are actively using it as a political weapon.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    edited March 2019
    .
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060

    TOPPING said:

    I see we are still going on the 'evil Laura Murray' with thugs like Stephen Pollard leading the charge.



    Labour has less anti semitism now than it did previously when Ed was leader.

    Building up an idea Labour is anti semitic through false accusations such as Marc Wadsworth and then using his false accusations of AS and pictures with Corbyn as proof with Corbyn. Pushing the pro Palestinian = anti semitism angle on top of that was always going to cause a problem whether the party was anti semitic or not.

    Changing policy to support the occupation of Palestine is not worth it to stop being accused of racism. To do so would be cowardly.

    But until we do people like Stephen Pollard will continue to push the line by announcing a Jewish person who supports Corbyn as an anti semite for making exactly the same Jewish pun his paper has made.

    I agree the party should kick out any and all racists but that will not satisfy many of the people gunning for Labour. Plenty of those going along with the attack have little or no interest in Israel but plenty of reasons to go against the left.

    Edit: Also the association mainly exists in the minds of people on the right and centre of the political spectrum. Those who vote Labour mostly don't believe it.
    Three long-serving, respected MPs have resigned over the issue. Others have expressed support for them. How bad does it have to get before you accept there's a problem?
    Any racism is a problem TBH, if you mean it is a problem as in the leadership or large sections of the party are racist then I would say no.

    Those 3 MPs also have large ideological problems with the party and were likely to be replaced by the next election. It would be inaccurate to say this was their only problem, Ian Austin didn't like Ed let alone Corbyn.
    Corbyn didn't like Blair. Should he have been sacked from the Labour Party then?

    Or should the Party be able to be a big tent that can hold more than one opinion.
    George Galloway left when Blair was leader, this lot left when Corbyn was leader. Those who can't accept the opposite side of the party being in the leadership are the ones who rejected the broad church.

    Anyone who regards George Galloway as an asset to anyone but his opponents is not someone whose opinion I would ever take seriously. His support for Leave was a significant part of my descision to vote remain.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    TOPPING said:

    I see we are still going on the 'evil Laura Murray' with thugs like Stephen Pollard leading the charge.





    Three long-serving, respected MPs have resigned over the issue. Others have expressed support for them. How bad does it have to get before you accept there's a problem?
    Any racism is a problem TBH, if you mean it is a problem as in the leadership or large sections of the party are racist then I would say no.

    Those 3 MPs also have large ideological problems with the party and were likely to be replaced by the next election. It would be inaccurate to say this was their only problem, Ian Austin didn't like Ed let alone Corbyn.
    Corbyn didn't like Blair. Should he have been sacked from the Labour Party then?

    Or should the Party be able to be a big tent that can hold more than one opinion.
    George Galloway left when Blair was leader, this lot left when Corbyn was leader. Those who can't accept the opposite side of the party being in the leadership are the ones who rejected the broad church.

    Anyone who regards George Galloway as an asset to anyone but his opponents is not someone whose opinion I would ever take seriously. His support for Leave was a significant part of my descision to vote remain.
    I don't know if you are wavering on wanting to remain at all but Galloway still wants out if it makes a difference!

    Also not sure if it was clear from my post but I pretty much compared him to TIG (who I'm not a fan of!) rather than complimented him.

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084
    TIG is launching a petition to scrap the benefits freeze.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    TOPPING said:

    I see we are still going on the 'evil Laura Murray' with thugs like Stephen Pollard leading the charge.

    Here are a few Jewish people who have campaigned against anti semitism with their opinion on Laura.

    https://twitter.com/Jeremy_Newmark/status/1102921395267424256

    We can now go back to thrashing the young woman now on the say of angry old men like Stephen Pollard.

    Finally you accept that Labour has a "serious antisemitism problem". Well done you.
    As long as racism exists in society Labour will have a racism problem, as any racism is a problem.

    Be nice if you could adopt a similar approach with your own party, I won't be holding my breath.
    Sorry, Jezz, but 'Yeah but...' won't do.

    It is preposterous that Labour should be associated in any way with anti-semitism. It doesn't matter what other Parties may say or do. Labour has to be cleaner and purer than the driven snow in this regard. It was under every single Leader in my lifetime. That it is not now it an indictment the current Leadership cannot escape.
    Labour has less anti semitism now than it did previously when Ed was leader.

    Building up an idea Labour is anti semitic through false accusations such as Marc Wadsworth and then using his false accusations of AS and pictures with Corbyn as proof with Corbyn. Pushing the pro Palestinian = anti semitism angle on top of that was always going to cause a problem whether the party was anti semitic or not.

    Changing policy to support the occupation of Palestine is not worth it to stop being accused of racism. To do so would be cowardly.

    But until we do people like Stephen Pollard will continue to push the line by announcing a Jewish person who supports Corbyn as an anti semite for making exactly the same Jewish pun his paper has made.

    I agree the party should kick out any and all racists but that will not satisfy many of the people gunning for Labour. Plenty of those going along with the attack have little or no interest in Israel but plenty of reasons to go against the left.

    Edit: Also the association mainly exists in the minds of people on the right and centre of the political spectrum. Those who vote Labour mostly don't believe it.
    Utter bollocks. You just don't want to acknowledge the scale of the issue.
    The Jezziah is clearly partisan, but what exactly is the scale of the issue? I don't see Labour adopting any anti-semitic policies. They are investigating allegations. There are plenty of Jewish MPs and members - in fact the previous leader was one. I just can't see why it is headline news.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

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This discussion has been closed.