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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Meanwhile, Labour is redefining the domestic consensus

SystemSystem Posts: 6,666
edited March 9 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Meanwhile, Labour is redefining the domestic consensus

Brexit has created many political casualties already. Whether directly, like David Cameron, or indirectly, like UKIP, the vote to Leave the EU has cut a swathe through the personnel, policies and priorities of the political classes. We can expect many more to fall victim to the process before it ends.

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 24,610
    Two threads?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 27,373
    Excellent piece.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 24,610
    This has been obvious since Hammond took over from Osborne. A weak, incompetent, minority government like this one meets every challenge with we are spending more. Once additional spending becomes the expected norm then arguing you are spending enough becomes perilous.

    Some of this is not necessarily wrong. We have had the best part of 10 years of financial restraint since Brown's disaster and the deficit is now largely eliminated, albeit debt levels are more than double what they were pre-crash. It is inevitable that the pips are going to be squeaking in various parts of the public sector after such a period. What I think is less forgivable is that this government gives no sense of what its priorities are, what it is hoping to achieve with the additional money now available and why some public spending is good and some is not.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 48,038
    Mr. L, the failure to mention, debt, deficit, or interest payments is woeful. BBC had a lot about low education funding, but the interest payments on debt are circa 160% of the annual Education budget.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 24,610
    edited March 9

    Mr. L, the failure to mention, debt, deficit, or interest payments is woeful. BBC had a lot about low education funding, but the interest payments on debt are circa 160% of the annual Education budget.

    And Hammond's response was that if people would only vote for the deal he can have a proper splurge of all the money he has been "saving" (while debt continues to grow). Once a Tory Chancellor has conceded that is more than possible the credibility of attacks on Labour's fantasy spending is holed below the water line. Useless.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 19,434
    If Brexit is delayed beyond June then the PM has to step down - the government will have lost control of events.

    Those Con MPs who chose to save May have been proved to have followed the wrong path. They now need to admit their mistake and right the wrong.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 27,373
    DavidL said:

    Mr. L, the failure to mention, debt, deficit, or interest payments is woeful. BBC had a lot about low education funding, but the interest payments on debt are circa 160% of the annual Education budget.

    And Hammond's response was that if people would only vote for the deal he can have a proper splurge of all the money he has been "saving" (while debt continues to grow). Once a Tory Chancellor has conceded that is more than possible the credibility of attacks on Labour's fantasy spending is holed below the water line. Useless.
    I think David’s central thesis is right: the Conservatives aren’t attempting to win the public over on the economic arguments from first principles, which is a big mistake.

    Thatcher and her ministers didn’t let a single interview she did, whether TV or radio, pass without making this argument.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 2,944
    What I don't understand is this - are the Tory ministers actually stupid or do they believe they are the only not stupid people and that everyone else is stupid.

    Crime as an example. As the Tories took a knife to police funding Home Secretary May was told in explicit detail what would happen to intelligence gathering and the awful consequences of that. No it won't she told the police, only for it to happen exactly as described.

    Now we have the spectacle of ministers trying to insist that May was right, what the police said would happen thanks to cuts might have happened but its definitely not down to cuts, and besides which here's more money so it's fixed. That the money proffered is a fraction of what has been cut doesn't seem to register.

    It's the old rule. Voters will vote for a competent bastard or an incompetent sweetie, but not an incompetent bastard. Which the Tories demonstrably are. Except of course that Brexit remains the wild card along with Jezbollah, and almost anything unpredictable can happen going forward
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 10,928

    Mr. L, the failure to mention, debt, deficit, or interest payments is woeful. BBC had a lot about low education funding, but the interest payments on debt are circa 160% of the annual Education budget.

    The govt claimed this was all done in order to spend billions on its Brexit folly.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 19,434
    Hunt is continuity May/Hammond. Not for me thank you.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 22,863
    On domestic matters, it'd be interesting to see how criticism of Javid over the death of Shamima Begum's son plays with the public. Are Abbott and Labour on a winner with their angle?

    My Facebook feed has several people who are hopping mad about it; but then they're the Venezuela-supporting, Putin-excusing, Corbyn-loving crowd ...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 48,038
    Mr. Royale, Osborne also made great running on the economy. May and Hammond are pathetic in this regard.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 11,875
    Interesting article - David is always good at taking the long view. To some extent what he describes is the pendulum effect - parties come to power on a national mood, energetically pursue it, and then overdo it, at about the same time when they start to be worn out. This sort of thing

    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2019/mar/08/its-dangerous-full-chaos-of-funding-cuts-in-englands-schools-revealed

    is pretty hard to defend, and the Government can't be bothered (I can't even remember who the Education Secretary is).

    At that point people say, "Enough of this, let's try the other approach." But the Tory obsession with Brexit has certainly helped Labour define the non-Brexit argument: it feels like a real surprise when Ministers talk about anything but Brexit.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 22,863

    What I don't understand is this - are the Tory ministers actually stupid or do they believe they are the only not stupid people and that everyone else is stupid.

    Crime as an example. As the Tories took a knife to police funding Home Secretary May was told in explicit detail what would happen to intelligence gathering and the awful consequences of that. No it won't she told the police, only for it to happen exactly as described.

    Now we have the spectacle of ministers trying to insist that May was right, what the police said would happen thanks to cuts might have happened but its definitely not down to cuts, and besides which here's more money so it's fixed. That the money proffered is a fraction of what has been cut doesn't seem to register.

    It's the old rule. Voters will vote for a competent bastard or an incompetent sweetie, but not an incompetent bastard. Which the Tories demonstrably are. Except of course that Brexit remains the wild card along with Jezbollah, and almost anything unpredictable can happen going forward

    Would you be willing to see stop and search increased as a temporary measure to try to tackle knife crime, whilst longer-term measure are introduced?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 3,684
    edited March 9
    Good piece.

    Actually the GFC has destroyed the intellectual underpinnings of both neo-liberalism and monetarism, and Brexit has destroyed the Tory claim to economic competence.

    Moreover, the Tories are intellectually exhausted.

    This has left the field open to Labour.

    Luckily for the Tories, Corbyn himself has no particular interest in domestic policy (he never mentions any in his speeches, just gripes about the ailments of “Tory rule”) and there is no Brown/Osborne figure in the Opposition to lay the ideological foundation that ensures policy hegemony once Labour finally get into power.

    The result is that Labour wins on tactics but the wider contest - who will “rule” the 2020s - is still to play for.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 10,613
    Interesting read. Unfortunately you'd need a fraud squad bigger and brighter than ours to unravel it
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 3,044
    Scott_P said:
    Rat Eyes certainly wants it badly enough which is the first and most important qualification. He was a remainer and is now obviously lying about changing his mind. Will that be sufficient for the largely senescent tory membership? He's certainly more of a value bet than Raabocop or The Saj.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 6,545
    This is an argument to gladden my heart this morning. What could be better than Corbyn destroying the Thatcherite consensus from the safety of opposition?
  • eekeek Posts: 3,169

    On domestic matters, it'd be interesting to see how criticism of Javid over the death of Shamima Begum's son plays with the public. Are Abbott and Labour on a winner with their angle?

    My Facebook feed has several people who are hopping mad about it; but then they're the Venezuela-supporting, Putin-excusing, Corbyn-loving crowd ...

    It's like many things - a great argument until a journalist asks the first question. In this case its "and how, exactly, could we have got them back to the UK?"
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 24,610

    DavidL said:

    Mr. L, the failure to mention, debt, deficit, or interest payments is woeful. BBC had a lot about low education funding, but the interest payments on debt are circa 160% of the annual Education budget.

    And Hammond's response was that if people would only vote for the deal he can have a proper splurge of all the money he has been "saving" (while debt continues to grow). Once a Tory Chancellor has conceded that is more than possible the credibility of attacks on Labour's fantasy spending is holed below the water line. Useless.
    I think David’s central thesis is right: the Conservatives aren’t attempting to win the public over on the economic arguments from first principles, which is a big mistake.

    Thatcher and her ministers didn’t let a single interview she did, whether TV or radio, pass without making this argument.
    In contrast those on the left constantly urge that austerity is a political not an economic choice and that it is a choice that has restrained growth. When the deficit was £150bn that argument was so ridiculous as to be laughable. When its at £20bn it needs a more careful rebuttal.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 2,944

    What I don't understand is this - are the Tory ministers actually stupid or do they believe they are the only not stupid people and that everyone else is stupid.

    Crime as an example. As the Tories took a knife to police funding Home Secretary May was told in explicit detail what would happen to intelligence gathering and the awful consequences of that. No it won't she told the police, only for it to happen exactly as described.

    Now we have the spectacle of ministers trying to insist that May was right, what the police said would happen thanks to cuts might have happened but its definitely not down to cuts, and besides which here's more money so it's fixed. That the money proffered is a fraction of what has been cut doesn't seem to register.

    It's the old rule. Voters will vote for a competent bastard or an incompetent sweetie, but not an incompetent bastard. Which the Tories demonstrably are. Except of course that Brexit remains the wild card along with Jezbollah, and almost anything unpredictable can happen going forward

    Would you be willing to see stop and search increased as a temporary measure to try to tackle knife crime, whilst longer-term measure are introduced?
    Yes. Whilst I understand the concerns of the BAME communities about stop and search, it is predominantly their communities who are both carrying knives and falling victim to knives.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 591
    Interesting news re Labour and a second EU vote .

    It’s likely they might not put the amendment on Mays vote but on the extension , or might wait till later . I think this makes sense . There’s no majority for it yet. Aswell as this Keir Starmer together with the pollster Peter Kellner will be addressing Labour MPs from Leave seats . The myth surrounding those Leave seats and the Labour voters there has been an issue.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 22,863

    What I don't understand is this - are the Tory ministers actually stupid or do they believe they are the only not stupid people and that everyone else is stupid.

    Crime as an example. As the Tories took a knife to police funding Home Secretary May was told in explicit detail what would happen to intelligence gathering and the awful consequences of that. No it won't she told the police, only for it to happen exactly as described.

    Now we have the spectacle of ministers trying to insist that May was right, what the police said would happen thanks to cuts might have happened but its definitely not down to cuts, and besides which here's more money so it's fixed. That the money proffered is a fraction of what has been cut doesn't seem to register.

    It's the old rule. Voters will vote for a competent bastard or an incompetent sweetie, but not an incompetent bastard. Which the Tories demonstrably are. Except of course that Brexit remains the wild card along with Jezbollah, and almost anything unpredictable can happen going forward

    Would you be willing to see stop and search increased as a temporary measure to try to tackle knife crime, whilst longer-term measure are introduced?
    Yes. Whilst I understand the concerns of the BAME communities about stop and search, it is predominantly their communities who are both carrying knives and falling victim to knives.
    A fair answer. It is a problem that has many causes, and solutions are difficult (although Scotland may show us a way forward with that).

    One fix we need to look at is the culture behind knives and youths.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 24,610
    Jonathan said:

    Mr. L, the failure to mention, debt, deficit, or interest payments is woeful. BBC had a lot about low education funding, but the interest payments on debt are circa 160% of the annual Education budget.

    The govt claimed this was all done in order to spend billions on its Brexit folly.
    Not quite but almost as bad. They claimed that they would need to spend billions extra to support the UK economy in the event of a no deal Brexit and therefore had to keep this fire power available. Of course that concedes the money can be and will be spent whether or supporting our economy generally or increasing specific public spending. The spending review this summer may leave not much more than a fag packet between the parties economically despite all the rhetoric.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 29,040
    TGOHF said:

    Hunt is continuity May/Hammond. Not for me thank you.

    Not even Clarkson?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 19,434

    On domestic matters, it'd be interesting to see how criticism of Javid over the death of Shamima Begum's son plays with the public. Are Abbott and Labour on a winner with their angle?

    My Facebook feed has several people who are hopping mad about it; but then they're the Venezuela-supporting, Putin-excusing, Corbyn-loving crowd ...

    Sad the level of debate on this. This daft bint went off to a third world hell hole and got knocked up - her decisions caused these outcomes entirely.

    Also infant mortality in the third world is still high - yet the one bairn that causes the outrage is the celebrity baby. Shallow. Cry for them all or none - and do something about it - like mega wealthy capitalist Bill Gates has.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 23,578
    It’s worse than that. The Thatcher consensus is one of many things that Leavers have loved to death. Austerity is over, despite Britain’s still poor public spending figures (at this point a diehard will leap in to point out recent monthly deficit figures and will ignore the still-woeful debt figures). We’re rounding the next bend of Shit Creek and the rapids approach.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 29,040

    What I don't understand is this - are the Tory ministers actually stupid or do they believe they are the only not stupid people and that everyone else is stupid.

    Crime as an example. As the Tories took a knife to police funding Home Secretary May was told in explicit detail what would happen to intelligence gathering and the awful consequences of that. No it won't she told the police, only for it to happen exactly as described.

    Now we have the spectacle of ministers trying to insist that May was right, what the police said would happen thanks to cuts might have happened but its definitely not down to cuts, and besides which here's more money so it's fixed. That the money proffered is a fraction of what has been cut doesn't seem to register.

    It's the old rule. Voters will vote for a competent bastard or an incompetent sweetie, but not an incompetent bastard. Which the Tories demonstrably are. Except of course that Brexit remains the wild card along with Jezbollah, and almost anything unpredictable can happen going forward

    Would you be willing to see stop and search increased as a temporary measure to try to tackle knife crime, whilst longer-term measure are introduced?
    Yes. Whilst I understand the concerns of the BAME communities about stop and search, it is predominantly their communities who are both carrying knives and falling victim to knives.
    +1

    So the calls on Socialist Media are for "more police" - what are these extra officers supposed to do? Twiddle their thumbs?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 21,252
    Good piece David, and a reminder that the government need to make sure they keep control of the narrative on non-Brexit subjects. I don’t recall anything from the Home Secretary this week, but plenty from the Mayor of London (who runs the Met Police and is ultimately responsible for crime in London) moaning about government inaction on the subject.

    You can of course have a million new police officers, but they won’t make any difference if they can’t stop and search people and can’t chase criminals on bikes.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 16,232

    It’s worse than that. The Thatcher consensus is one of many things that Leavers have loved to death. Austerity is over, despite Britain’s still poor public spending figures (at this point a diehard will leap in to point out recent monthly deficit figures and will ignore the still-woeful debt figures). We’re rounding the next bend of Shit Creek and the rapids approach.

    Agreed. We need 3-4 years of a smallish surplus and 4-5% nominal GDP growth. Unfortunately the government took far, far too long in eliminating the deficit and we still spend £60bn per year on subsidising wages/housing for people who work. In the next recession the latter figure could double.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 6,545

    It’s worse than that. The Thatcher consensus is one of many things that Leavers have loved to death. Austerity is over, despite Britain’s still poor public spending figures (at this point a diehard will leap in to point out recent monthly deficit figures and will ignore the still-woeful debt figures). We’re rounding the next bend of Shit Creek and the rapids approach.

    I think George Osborne's original schedule would have had us on the fifth year of paying off some of the debt by now, in order to be prepared for the next crash. Unfortunately he failed.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 40,825
    Spending restraint is still needed but given no party is going to really stick to it now, best just prepare ourselves as best we can I guess.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 10,613
    Interesting header David. I heard or read somewhere yesterday that there was a real possibility that the Tory Party as we know it are on the point of imploding and might soon be no more.

    Obviously if that happened then the unlikely possibiity of a Corbyn premiership might come about. But the problem with that is that with the MPs he's got plus the new ones he'll gain he'll never have enough support on his own side to be any less a lame duck than Mrs May has been.
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 916
    Good article.

    To throw into the mix, what are the political philosophy of the TIG?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 20,922

    What I don't understand is this - are the Tory ministers actually stupid or do they believe they are the only not stupid people and that everyone else is stupid.

    Crime as an example. As the Tories took a knife to police funding Home Secretary May was told in explicit detail what would happen to intelligence gathering and the awful consequences of that. No it won't she told the police, only for it to happen exactly as described.

    Now we have the spectacle of ministers trying to insist that May was right, what the police said would happen thanks to cuts might have happened but its definitely not down to cuts, and besides which here's more money so it's fixed. That the money proffered is a fraction of what has been cut doesn't seem to register.

    It's the old rule. Voters will vote for a competent bastard or an incompetent sweetie, but not an incompetent bastard. Which the Tories demonstrably are. Except of course that Brexit remains the wild card along with Jezbollah, and almost anything unpredictable can happen going forward

    Would you be willing to see stop and search increased as a temporary measure to try to tackle knife crime, whilst longer-term measure are introduced?
    Yes. Whilst I understand the concerns of the BAME communities about stop and search, it is predominantly their communities who are both carrying knives and falling victim to knives.
    Never mind temporary , they should be swamping these places, rounding up the knife carriers and locking them up for a very long time. Stop the liberal snowflake whining about it being racist or not nice or whatever, just stop it. Police seem to have time to chase people when some halfwit phones up and says they have been offended by a comment on twitter. Get those that are left out on the streets nicking these halfwits.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 40,825

    It’s worse than that. The Thatcher consensus is one of many things that Leavers have loved to death. Austerity is over, despite Britain’s still poor public spending figures (at this point a diehard will leap in to point out recent monthly deficit figures and will ignore the still-woeful debt figures). We’re rounding the next bend of Shit Creek and the rapids approach.

    I think George Osborne's original schedule would have had us on the fifth year of paying off some of the debt by now, in order to be prepared for the next crash. Unfortunately he failed.
    It proved too politically tough. Even after 2015 too many rebellions over austerity were clearly on the horizon, signalling further and further delays would be coming. And now the narrative is not about how to save more, or that things are still precarious, it's how much more is to be spent. We are never getting a surplus.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 20,005
    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_P said:
    Rat Eyes certainly wants it badly enough which is the first and most important qualification. He was a remainer and is now obviously lying about changing his mind. Will that be sufficient for the largely senescent tory membership? He's certainly more of a value bet than Raabocop or The Saj.
    My wallet would be very happy if Hunt takes the crown.

    Not convinced though that anyone can beat Boris if he makes last two, so it is down to moderate MPs to engineer things if they want anyone but Boris.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 16,232
    malcolmg said:

    What I don't understand is this - are the Tory ministers actually stupid or do they believe they are the only not stupid people and that everyone else is stupid.

    Crime as an example. As the Tories took a knife to police funding Home Secretary May was told in explicit detail what would happen to intelligence gathering and the awful consequences of that. No it won't she told the police, only for it to happen exactly as described.

    Now we have the spectacle of ministers trying to insist that May was right, what the police said would happen thanks to cuts might have happened but its definitely not down to cuts, and besides which here's more money so it's fixed. That the money proffered is a fraction of what has been cut doesn't seem to register.

    It's the old rule. Voters will vote for a competent bastard or an incompetent sweetie, but not an incompetent bastard. Which the Tories demonstrably are. Except of course that Brexit remains the wild card along with Jezbollah, and almost anything unpredictable can happen going forward

    Would you be willing to see stop and search increased as a temporary measure to try to tackle knife crime, whilst longer-term measure are introduced?
    Yes. Whilst I understand the concerns of the BAME communities about stop and search, it is predominantly their communities who are both carrying knives and falling victim to knives.
    Never mind temporary , they should be swamping these places, rounding up the knife carriers and locking them up for a very long time. Stop the liberal snowflake whining about it being racist or not nice or whatever, just stop it. Police seem to have time to chase people when some halfwit phones up and says they have been offended by a comment on twitter. Get those that are left out on the streets nicking these halfwits.
    :+1:
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 40,825

    Good article.

    To throw into the mix, what are the political philosophy of the TIG?

    Irrelevant probably, they already seem passed it. But truthfully the answer is likely to be mixed, although being mostly ex labour and given Allen at least as well, not likely to think restraint is the answer.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 2,944

    What I don't understand is this - are the Tory ministers actually stupid or do they believe they are the only not stupid people and that everyone else is stupid.

    Crime as an example. As the Tories took a knife to police funding Home Secretary May was told in explicit detail what would happen to intelligence gathering and the awful consequences of that. No it won't she told the police, only for it to happen exactly as described.

    Now we have the spectacle of ministers trying to insist that May was right, what the police said would happen thanks to cuts might have happened but its definitely not down to cuts, and besides which here's more money so it's fixed. That the money proffered is a fraction of what has been cut doesn't seem to register.

    It's the old rule. Voters will vote for a competent bastard or an incompetent sweetie, but not an incompetent bastard. Which the Tories demonstrably are. Except of course that Brexit remains the wild card along with Jezbollah, and almost anything unpredictable can happen going forward

    Would you be willing to see stop and search increased as a temporary measure to try to tackle knife crime, whilst longer-term measure are introduced?
    Yes. Whilst I understand the concerns of the BAME communities about stop and search, it is predominantly their communities who are both carrying knives and falling victim to knives.
    +1

    So the calls on Socialist Media are for "more police" - what are these extra officers supposed to do? Twiddle their thumbs?
    Locally the issue isn't knives but it is the same age of teenager who rightly thinks there are no police and wrongly thanks to shit parenting thinks they can do what they want. The extra money for overtime is needed so that officers can be flooded into trouble areas to hassle errant teens until they realise they can't get away with this shit.

    Not that we have officers available to work overtime. My small town shares a neighbourhood policing team with neighbouring small towns. That team has just been cut by 2 PCs.

    From it's previous complement of 2 PCs...
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 3,044
    eek said:

    On domestic matters, it'd be interesting to see how criticism of Javid over the death of Shamima Begum's son plays with the public. Are Abbott and Labour on a winner with their angle?

    My Facebook feed has several people who are hopping mad about it; but then they're the Venezuela-supporting, Putin-excusing, Corbyn-loving crowd ...

    It's like many things - a great argument until a journalist asks the first question. In this case its "and how, exactly, could we have got them back to the UK?"
    She and her dead sprog are in al-Hawl so the UK government could tell the SDF (with whom we will have embedded "advisors") to drive her to the Iraqi border at Rabia (30 minute drive).

    Some junior FO spod being punished for some fuck up would meet her at the border with a fresh passport be detailed to take to Irbil airport (maybe a 3 hour drive) and put her on a flight to Stansted via Vienna or Frankfurt. She flies Y class, infant corpse goes in the overhead locker.

    If it were Stacey fucking Dooley stuck in that camp do you think the British state couldn't have come up with a way to exfiltrate her?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 16,232
    Dura_Ace said:

    eek said:

    On domestic matters, it'd be interesting to see how criticism of Javid over the death of Shamima Begum's son plays with the public. Are Abbott and Labour on a winner with their angle?

    My Facebook feed has several people who are hopping mad about it; but then they're the Venezuela-supporting, Putin-excusing, Corbyn-loving crowd ...

    It's like many things - a great argument until a journalist asks the first question. In this case its "and how, exactly, could we have got them back to the UK?"
    She and her dead sprog are in al-Hawl so the UK government could tell the SDF (with whom we will have embedded "advisors") to drive her to the Iraqi border at Rabia (30 minute drive).

    Some junior FO spod being punished for some fuck up would meet her at the border with a fresh passport be detailed to take to Irbil airport (maybe a 3 hour drive) and put her on a flight to Stansted via Vienna or Frankfurt. She flies Y class, infant corpse goes in the overhead locker.

    If it were Stacey fucking Dooley stuck in that camp do you think the British state couldn't have come up with a way to exfiltrate her?
    Possible yes, but why would we do any of that?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 16,232

    What I don't understand is this - are the Tory ministers actually stupid or do they believe they are the only not stupid people and that everyone else is stupid.

    Crime as an example. As the Tories took a knife to police funding Home Secretary May was told in explicit detail what would happen to intelligence gathering and the awful consequences of that. No it won't she told the police, only for it to happen exactly as described.

    Now we have the spectacle of ministers trying to insist that May was right, what the police said would happen thanks to cuts might have happened but its definitely not down to cuts, and besides which here's more money so it's fixed. That the money proffered is a fraction of what has been cut doesn't seem to register.

    It's the old rule. Voters will vote for a competent bastard or an incompetent sweetie, but not an incompetent bastard. Which the Tories demonstrably are. Except of course that Brexit remains the wild card along with Jezbollah, and almost anything unpredictable can happen going forward

    Would you be willing to see stop and search increased as a temporary measure to try to tackle knife crime, whilst longer-term measure are introduced?
    Yes. Whilst I understand the concerns of the BAME communities about stop and search, it is predominantly their communities who are both carrying knives and falling victim to knives.
    +1

    So the calls on Socialist Media are for "more police" - what are these extra officers supposed to do? Twiddle their thumbs?
    Locally the issue isn't knives but it is the same age of teenager who rightly thinks there are no police and wrongly thanks to shit parenting thinks they can do what they want. The extra money for overtime is needed so that officers can be flooded into trouble areas to hassle errant teens until they realise they can't get away with this shit.

    Not that we have officers available to work overtime. My small town shares a neighbourhood policing team with neighbouring small towns. That team has just been cut by 2 PCs.

    From it's previous complement of 2 PCs...
    How much time/resources does your local police force spend chasing idiots who said something on Twitter. That's the problem with the Met. They have hundreds of police dedicated to policing social media. Redeploy them and the problem goes away.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 48,038
    Mr. Ace, Stacey Dooley didn't fly a thousand miles to join a cult of child-crucifying genocidal lunatics.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 6,545
    kle4 said:

    It’s worse than that. The Thatcher consensus is one of many things that Leavers have loved to death. Austerity is over, despite Britain’s still poor public spending figures (at this point a diehard will leap in to point out recent monthly deficit figures and will ignore the still-woeful debt figures). We’re rounding the next bend of Shit Creek and the rapids approach.

    I think George Osborne's original schedule would have had us on the fifth year of paying off some of the debt by now, in order to be prepared for the next crash. Unfortunately he failed.
    It proved too politically tough. Even after 2015 too many rebellions over austerity were clearly on the horizon, signalling further and further delays would be coming. And now the narrative is not about how to save more, or that things are still precarious, it's how much more is to be spent. We are never getting a surplus.
    I think there was a lot of political support for Austerity, particularly in the early years of the Coalition. "We're all in it together", could have carried the country through faster deficit reduction had it been more than a slogan and Osborne hadn't been handing out sweeties to those he deemed deserving.

    The continuing deficit now is George Osborne's failure.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 10,613
    malcolmg said:

    What I don't understand is this - are the Tory ministers actually stupid or do they believe they are the only not stupid people and that everyone else is stupid.

    Crime as an example. As the Tories took a knife to police funding Home Secretary May was told in explicit detail what would happen to intelligence gathering and the awful consequences of that. No it won't she told the police, only for it to happen exactly as described.

    Now we have the spectacle of ministers trying to insist that May was right, what the police said would happen thanks to cuts might have happened but its definitely not down to cuts, and besides which here's more money so it's fixed. That the money proffered is a fraction of what has been cut doesn't seem to register.

    It's the old rule. Voters will vote for a competent bastard or an incompetent sweetie, but not an incompetent bastard. Which the Tories demonstrably are. Except of course that Brexit remains the wild card along with Jezbollah, and almost anything unpredictable can happen going forward

    Would you be willing to see stop and search increased as a temporary measure to try to tackle knife crime, whilst longer-term measure are introduced?
    Yes. Whilst I understand the concerns of the BAME communities about stop and search, it is predominantly their communities who are both carrying knives and falling victim to knives.
    ..... Police seem to have time to chase people when some halfwit phones up and says they have been offended by a comment on twitter. Get those that are left out on the streets nicking these halfwits.
    LOL!!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 22,863
    TGOHF said:

    On domestic matters, it'd be interesting to see how criticism of Javid over the death of Shamima Begum's son plays with the public. Are Abbott and Labour on a winner with their angle?

    My Facebook feed has several people who are hopping mad about it; but then they're the Venezuela-supporting, Putin-excusing, Corbyn-loving crowd ...

    Sad the level of debate on this. This daft bint went off to a third world hell hole and got knocked up - her decisions caused these outcomes entirely.

    Also infant mortality in the third world is still high - yet the one bairn that causes the outrage is the celebrity baby. Shallow. Cry for them all or none - and do something about it - like mega wealthy capitalist Bill Gates has.
    My own (somewhat mixed) views:

    I have no sympathy with Begum's plight. True, she was a minor when she voluntarily left the UK, but her words (at least the ones I have heard) since she has resurfaced seem akin to: "Well, we tried, we lost. You must let me come back" - she doesn't seem to accept the horror she chose to become part of, or show any contrition.

    (If someone can point me to an interview where she accepts the horrors of ISIS, I'd be grateful.)

    I have -5k sympathy with her husband.

    I have massive sympathy for the dead child. I'ts heartbreaking.

    However: I also have massive sympathy with the other women and children who died because of the actions of the group she chose to join, and which her husband aided, directly or indirectly. They, not Begum, are the victims in this.

    It's a hideous mess. But Begum placed herself, and her children, into danger.

    Yet I also don't like her being made stateless.

    As I said, mixed.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 5,291
    I had an interesting meeting last week with the old gits I drink with. We meet up sporadically to put the world to rights but one of the group reminded us about the vote we'd taken about 18 months ago. Despite being evenly split on Brexit, we'd decided by five to one that Brexit would never really happen anyway.

    Why? because the MPs didn't want it to happen and therefore it wouldn't. There might be a form of BINO where we'd continue to pay money, have no input into decisions, follow the rules and call it Brexit, but it wouldn't be Leave. We're all over sixty and naturally cynical so that probably explains it, but the sole dissenter then has now made it unanimous.

    The children continue to bicker, their inexperience of the world obvious, but the MPs see it as a chance to enhance their careers, not enact the will of the people. We had a smile at the innocence of voters, but went on to discuss more important things.

    The Remain voters among us were pleased, felt a mixture of guilt and relief, but accepted there would be understandable anger. It's a part of growing up - the realisation that the world isn't as you thought it was.. Democracy is fine, as long as it's controlled. Certain things are not allowed.

    We tend to have amicable arguments only about politics. MPs lie, good politicians do it with an air of sincerity. That's life. Raging against the dying of the light assumes there was light to begin with.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 40,825
    edited March 9

    Mr. Ace, Stacey Dooley didn't fly a thousand miles to join a cult of child-crucifying genocidal lunatics.

    Indeed. There are, perhaps, still difficult nuances to consider here particularly with the issue of the child, but a flippant reference to Dooley, probably in some lame attempt to imply racism by contrasting what would happen to a white person, ignoring the continuing relevance of this person's personal choices, is just plain dumb, simple as that, and amazingly unconvincing. There are reasonable criticisms to be found here, josias lays out some of the tricky considerations, but that comment was just a blatant lazy attempt at distraction mistaking bullishness as correct in it's own right.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 3,044
    MaxPB said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    eek said:

    On domestic matters, it'd be interesting to see how criticism of Javid over the death of Shamima Begum's son plays with the public. Are Abbott and Labour on a winner with their angle?

    My Facebook feed has several people who are hopping mad about it; but then they're the Venezuela-supporting, Putin-excusing, Corbyn-loving crowd ...

    It's like many things - a great argument until a journalist asks the first question. In this case its "and how, exactly, could we have got them back to the UK?"
    She and her dead sprog are in al-Hawl so the UK government could tell the SDF (with whom we will have embedded "advisors") to drive her to the Iraqi border at Rabia (30 minute drive).

    Some junior FO spod being punished for some fuck up would meet her at the border with a fresh passport be detailed to take to Irbil airport (maybe a 3 hour drive) and put her on a flight to Stansted via Vienna or Frankfurt. She flies Y class, infant corpse goes in the overhead locker.

    If it were Stacey fucking Dooley stuck in that camp do you think the British state couldn't have come up with a way to exfiltrate her?
    Possible yes, but why would we do any of that?
    Because that kid that The Saj just let die was an innocent British citizen and, because this is unfortunately the real world, you can't repatriate the child without its mother, Jihadi Spice.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 21,252

    What I don't understand is this - are the Tory ministers actually stupid or do they believe they are the only not stupid people and that everyone else is stupid.

    Crime as an example. As the Tories took a knife to police funding Home Secretary May was told in explicit detail what would happen to intelligence gathering and the awful consequences of that. No it won't she told the police, only for it to happen exactly as described.

    Now we have the spectacle of ministers trying to insist that May was right, what the police said would happen thanks to cuts might have happened but its definitely not down to cuts, and besides which here's more money so it's fixed. That the money proffered is a fraction of what has been cut doesn't seem to register.

    It's the old rule. Voters will vote for a competent bastard or an incompetent sweetie, but not an incompetent bastard. Which the Tories demonstrably are. Except of course that Brexit remains the wild card along with Jezbollah, and almost anything unpredictable can happen going forward

    Would you be willing to see stop and search increased as a temporary measure to try to tackle knife crime, whilst longer-term measure are introduced?
    Yes. Whilst I understand the concerns of the BAME communities about stop and search, it is predominantly their communities who are both carrying knives and falling victim to knives.
    A fair answer. It is a problem that has many causes, and solutions are difficult (although Scotland may show us a way forward with that).

    One fix we need to look at is the culture behind knives and youths.
    Interesting article on that subject.

    https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/were-at-a-fork-in-the-road-to-hell/

    Of course most politicians don’t dare talk about fatherless families, drug criminality and gang culture, when it’s much easier to talk about government spending and police numbers.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 16,232
    Dura_Ace said:

    MaxPB said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    eek said:

    On domestic matters, it'd be interesting to see how criticism of Javid over the death of Shamima Begum's son plays with the public. Are Abbott and Labour on a winner with their angle?

    My Facebook feed has several people who are hopping mad about it; but then they're the Venezuela-supporting, Putin-excusing, Corbyn-loving crowd ...

    It's like many things - a great argument until a journalist asks the first question. In this case its "and how, exactly, could we have got them back to the UK?"
    She and her dead sprog are in al-Hawl so the UK government could tell the SDF (with whom we will have embedded "advisors") to drive her to the Iraqi border at Rabia (30 minute drive).

    Some junior FO spod being punished for some fuck up would meet her at the border with a fresh passport be detailed to take to Irbil airport (maybe a 3 hour drive) and put her on a flight to Stansted via Vienna or Frankfurt. She flies Y class, infant corpse goes in the overhead locker.

    If it were Stacey fucking Dooley stuck in that camp do you think the British state couldn't have come up with a way to exfiltrate her?
    Possible yes, but why would we do any of that?
    Because that kid that The Saj just let die was an innocent British citizen and, because this is unfortunately the real world, you can't repatriate the child without its mother, Jihadi Spice.
    Nope, it's her responsibility, not the state's.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 10,613
    CD13 said:

    I had an interesting meeting last week with the old gits I drink with. We meet up sporadically to put the world to rights but one of the group reminded us about the vote we'd taken about 18 months ago. Despite being evenly split on Brexit, we'd decided by five to one that Brexit would never really happen anyway.

    Why? because the MPs didn't want it to happen and therefore it wouldn't. There might be a form of BINO where we'd continue to pay money, have no input into decisions, follow the rules and call it Brexit, but it wouldn't be Leave. We're all over sixty and naturally cynical so that probably explains it, but the sole dissenter then has now made it unanimous.

    The children continue to bicker, their inexperience of the world obvious, but the MPs see it as a chance to enhance their careers, not enact the will of the people. We had a smile at the innocence of voters, but went on to discuss more important things.

    The Remain voters among us were pleased, felt a mixture of guilt and relief, but accepted there would be understandable anger. It's a part of growing up - the realisation that the world isn't as you thought it was.. Democracy is fine, as long as it's controlled. Certain things are not allowed.

    We tend to have amicable arguments only about politics. MPs lie, good politicians do it with an air of sincerity. That's life. Raging against the dying of the light assumes there was light to begin with.

    The mistake was allowing 'old gits' to have a vote in the first place. It's the future we're talking about so leave the decision to those who it'll affect.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 24,610
    Sandpit said:

    What I don't understand is this - are the Tory ministers actually stupid or do they believe they are the only not stupid people and that everyone else is stupid.

    Crime as an example. As the Tories took a knife to police funding Home Secretary May was told in explicit detail what would happen to intelligence gathering and the awful consequences of that. No it won't she told the police, only for it to happen exactly as described.

    Now we have the spectacle of ministers trying to insist that May was right, what the police said would happen thanks to cuts might have happened but its definitely not down to cuts, and besides which here's more money so it's fixed. That the money proffered is a fraction of what has been cut doesn't seem to register.

    It's the old rule. Voters will vote for a competent bastard or an incompetent sweetie, but not an incompetent bastard. Which the Tories demonstrably are. Except of course that Brexit remains the wild card along with Jezbollah, and almost anything unpredictable can happen going forward

    Would you be willing to see stop and search increased as a temporary measure to try to tackle knife crime, whilst longer-term measure are introduced?
    Yes. Whilst I understand the concerns of the BAME communities about stop and search, it is predominantly their communities who are both carrying knives and falling victim to knives.
    A fair answer. It is a problem that has many causes, and solutions are difficult (although Scotland may show us a way forward with that).

    One fix we need to look at is the culture behind knives and youths.
    Interesting article on that subject.

    https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/were-at-a-fork-in-the-road-to-hell/

    Of course most politicians don’t dare talk about fatherless families, drug criminality and gang culture, when it’s much easier to talk about government spending and police numbers.
    That article is so badly written it positively distracts from the argument. Which is a pity.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 5,291
    Mr Flashman,


    I agree.

    Selective victimhood allows virtue-signalling with a vengeance.

    If Ms Dooley encourages the first world to put its hand in its pocket, more power to her. Perhaps fewer babies would die in the third world then.

    It's sad for the misguided girl, but sympathy is in sparse supply. The media thrives on sob-stories so it will run it for all it's worth.



  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 25,763
    Dura_Ace said:

    MaxPB said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    eek said:

    On domestic matters, it'd be interesting to see how criticism of Javid over the death of Shamima Begum's son plays with the public. Are Abbott and Labour on a winner with their angle?

    My Facebook feed has several people who are hopping mad about it; but then they're the Venezuela-supporting, Putin-excusing, Corbyn-loving crowd ...

    It's like many things - a great argument until a journalist asks the first question. In this case its "and how, exactly, could we have got them back to the UK?"
    She and her dead sprog are in al-Hawl so the UK government could tell the SDF (with whom we will have embedded "advisors") to drive her to the Iraqi border at Rabia (30 minute drive).

    Some junior FO spod being punished for some fuck up would meet her at the border with a fresh passport be detailed to take to Irbil airport (maybe a 3 hour drive) and put her on a flight to Stansted via Vienna or Frankfurt. She flies Y class, infant corpse goes in the overhead locker.

    If it were Stacey fucking Dooley stuck in that camp do you think the British state couldn't have come up with a way to exfiltrate her?
    Possible yes, but why would we do any of that?
    Because that kid that The Saj just let die was an innocent British citizen and, because this is unfortunately the real world, you can't repatriate the child without its mother, Jihadi Spice.
    She could have avoided this unpleasantness by not joining IS.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 13,570
    eek said:

    On domestic matters, it'd be interesting to see how criticism of Javid over the death of Shamima Begum's son plays with the public. Are Abbott and Labour on a winner with their angle?

    My Facebook feed has several people who are hopping mad about it; but then they're the Venezuela-supporting, Putin-excusing, Corbyn-loving crowd ...

    It's like many things - a great argument until a journalist asks the first question. In this case its "and how, exactly, could we have got them back to the UK?"
    As has been pointed out, UK journos and aid workers are going in and out of the region regularly so there's no impassable barrier to movement.

    It's almost impressive the way that this government has gone from big, tough Javid keeping the British public safe and making it clear that Daesh scum have relinquished their rights to UK citizenship, to bleating feebly about not having the mechanisms to evac people.

    Almost impressive if you haven't already priced in them being self-serving, principle-free no marks.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 29,040

    eek said:

    On domestic matters, it'd be interesting to see how criticism of Javid over the death of Shamima Begum's son plays with the public. Are Abbott and Labour on a winner with their angle?

    My Facebook feed has several people who are hopping mad about it; but then they're the Venezuela-supporting, Putin-excusing, Corbyn-loving crowd ...

    It's like many things - a great argument until a journalist asks the first question. In this case its "and how, exactly, could we have got them back to the UK?"
    As has been pointed out, UK journos and aid workers are going in and out of the region regularly so there's no impassable barrier to movement.

    It's almost impressive the way that this government has gone from big, tough Javid keeping the British public safe and making it clear that Daesh scum have relinquished their rights to UK citizenship, to bleating feebly about not having the mechanisms to evac people.

    Almost impressive if you haven't already priced in them being self-serving, principle-free no marks.

    Her Dutch husband wanted her to join him in the Netherlands.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 33,167
    No, the "white widow" gets the same reaction from me...she shouldn't be allowed back either.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 25,763
    On topic, this bothers me less than it would have done when I first started posting here, when I wanted to slash and burn the State. Most people don't want this, and one can't force them in that direction. So, the government (which still has a huge lead over Labour on economic issues) should make a virtue of necessity, and relax austerity.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 5,291
    Mr Roger,

    A good idea. Let's make the voting age birth to seven, the future belongs more to them.

    Leave the old gits to cogitate and laugh at the pretensions of the arrogant - it's fun.

  • RogerRoger Posts: 10,613
    Dura_Ace said:

    MaxPB said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    eek said:

    On domestic matters, it'd be interesting to see how criticism of Javid over the death of Shamima Begum's son plays with the public. Are Abbott and Labour on a winner with their angle?

    My Facebook feed has several people who are hopping mad about it; but then they're the Venezuela-supporting, Putin-excusing, Corbyn-loving crowd ...

    It's like many things - a great argument until a journalist asks the first question. In this case its "and how, exactly, could we have got them back to the UK?"
    She and her dead sprog are in al-Hawl so the UK government could tell the SDF (with whom we will have embedded "advisors") to drive her to the Iraqi border at Rabia (30 minute drive).

    Some junior FO spod being punished for some fuck up would meet her at the border with a fresh passport be detailed to take to Irbil airport (maybe a 3 hour drive) and put her on a flight to Stansted via Vienna or Frankfurt. She flies Y class, infant corpse goes in the overhead locker.

    If it were Stacey fucking Dooley stuck in that camp do you think the British state couldn't have come up with a way to exfiltrate her?
    Possible yes, but why would we do any of that?
    Because that kid that The Saj just let die was an innocent British citizen and, because this is unfortunately the real world, you can't repatriate the child without its mother, Jihadi Spice.
    If Brexit has taught us anything it's that that the Great British public don't like foreigners particularly if they're Muslim
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 33,167
    We shouldn't really be surprised by Labour's reaction. I mean their leader lobbied to get an ISIS fund raiser out of jail for Christmas....
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 29,040
    Roger said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MaxPB said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    eek said:

    On domestic matters, it'd be interesting to see how criticism of Javid over the death of Shamima Begum's son plays with the public. Are Abbott and Labour on a winner with their angle?

    My Facebook feed has several people who are hopping mad about it; but then they're the Venezuela-supporting, Putin-excusing, Corbyn-loving crowd ...

    It's like many things - a great argument until a journalist asks the first question. In this case its "and how, exactly, could we have got them back to the UK?"
    She and her dead sprog are in al-Hawl so the UK government could tell the SDF (with whom we will have embedded "advisors") to drive her to the Iraqi border at Rabia (30 minute drive).

    Some junior FO spod being punished for some fuck up would meet her at the border with a fresh passport be detailed to take to Irbil airport (maybe a 3 hour drive) and put her on a flight to Stansted via Vienna or Frankfurt. She flies Y class, infant corpse goes in the overhead locker.

    If it were Stacey fucking Dooley stuck in that camp do you think the British state couldn't have come up with a way to exfiltrate her?
    Possible yes, but why would we do any of that?
    Because that kid that The Saj just let die was an innocent British citizen and, because this is unfortunately the real world, you can't repatriate the child without its mother, Jihadi Spice.
    If Brexit has taught us anything it's that that the Great British public don't like foreigners particularly if they're Muslim
    No, it's if they're Islamists.
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,096
    Roger said:

    CD13 said:

    I had an interesting meeting last week with the old gits I drink with. We meet up sporadically to put the world to rights but one of the group reminded us about the vote we'd taken about 18 months ago. Despite being evenly split on Brexit, we'd decided by five to one that Brexit would never really happen anyway.

    Why? because the MPs didn't want it to happen and therefore it wouldn't. There might be a form of BINO where we'd continue to pay money, have no input into decisions, follow the rules and call it Brexit, but it wouldn't be Leave. We're all over sixty and naturally cynical so that probably explains it, but the sole dissenter then has now made it unanimous.

    The children continue to bicker, their inexperience of the world obvious, but the MPs see it as a chance to enhance their careers, not enact the will of the people. We had a smile at the innocence of voters, but went on to discuss more important things.

    The Remain voters among us were pleased, felt a mixture of guilt and relief, but accepted there would be understandable anger. It's a part of growing up - the realisation that the world isn't as you thought it was.. Democracy is fine, as long as it's controlled. Certain things are not allowed.

    We tend to have amicable arguments only about politics. MPs lie, good politicians do it with an air of sincerity. That's life. Raging against the dying of the light assumes there was light to begin with.

    The mistake was allowing 'old gits' to have a vote in the first place. It's the future we're talking about so leave the decision to those who it'll affect.
    A future where our sovereignty is taken away from us and slowly replaced with a soviet style union with one president one currency one set of laws One army , one anthem , power in the hands of the unaccountable wealthy elite, ruling over the plebs who are too thick to understand the complicated issues of government , which benefits big business, the rich lining their pockets at the expense of the poor, rules and dictats coming down from the echelons of Brussels telling how we have to live our lives, what we can and can’t eat , what we can and cannot say, loss of freedom of speech, and law making body that doesn’t have the protections of the magna carta and habeus corpus, erosion of our hard won freedoms , in the interests of European Unity, it’s a failed project and ultimately will self destruct .
    Great future that Roger
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 25,763
    Roger said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MaxPB said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    eek said:

    On domestic matters, it'd be interesting to see how criticism of Javid over the death of Shamima Begum's son plays with the public. Are Abbott and Labour on a winner with their angle?

    My Facebook feed has several people who are hopping mad about it; but then they're the Venezuela-supporting, Putin-excusing, Corbyn-loving crowd ...

    It's like many things - a great argument until a journalist asks the first question. In this case its "and how, exactly, could we have got them back to the UK?"
    She and her dead sprog are in al-Hawl so the UK government could tell the SDF (with whom we will have embedded "advisors") to drive her to the Iraqi border at Rabia (30 minute drive).

    Some junior FO spod being punished for some fuck up would meet her at the border with a fresh passport be detailed to take to Irbil airport (maybe a 3 hour drive) and put her on a flight to Stansted via Vienna or Frankfurt. She flies Y class, infant corpse goes in the overhead locker.

    If it were Stacey fucking Dooley stuck in that camp do you think the British state couldn't have come up with a way to exfiltrate her?
    Possible yes, but why would we do any of that?
    Because that kid that The Saj just let die was an innocent British citizen and, because this is unfortunately the real world, you can't repatriate the child without its mother, Jihadi Spice.
    If Brexit has taught us anything it's that that the Great British public don't like foreigners particularly if they're Muslim
    They don't like jihadists, at any rate.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 13,570

    Roger said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MaxPB said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    eek said:

    On domestic matters, it'd be interesting to see how criticism of Javid over the death of Shamima Begum's son plays with the public. Are Abbott and Labour on a winner with their angle?

    My Facebook feed has several people who are hopping mad about it; but then they're the Venezuela-supporting, Putin-excusing, Corbyn-loving crowd ...

    It's like many things - a great argument until a journalist asks the first question. In this case its "and how, exactly, could we have got them back to the UK?"
    She and her dead sprog are in al-Hawl so the UK government could tell the SDF (with whom we will have embedded "advisors") to drive her to the Iraqi border at Rabia (30 minute drive).

    Some junior FO spod being punished for some fuck up would meet her at the border with a fresh passport be detailed to take to Irbil airport (maybe a 3 hour drive) and put her on a flight to Stansted via Vienna or Frankfurt. She flies Y class, infant corpse goes in the overhead locker.

    If it were Stacey fucking Dooley stuck in that camp do you think the British state couldn't have come up with a way to exfiltrate her?
    Possible yes, but why would we do any of that?
    Because that kid that The Saj just let die was an innocent British citizen and, because this is unfortunately the real world, you can't repatriate the child without its mother, Jihadi Spice.
    If Brexit has taught us anything it's that that the Great British public don't like foreigners particularly if they're Muslim
    No, it's if they're Islamists.
    And the 2 week old offspring of Islamists, presumably.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 3,684
    kjohnw said:

    Roger said:

    CD13 said:

    I had an interesting meeting last week with the old gits I drink with. We meet up sporadically to put the world to rights but one of the group reminded us about the vote we'd taken about 18 months ago. Despite being evenly split on Brexit, we'd decided by five to one that Brexit would never really happen anyway.

    Why? because the MPs didn't want it to happen and therefore it wouldn't. There might be a form of BINO where we'd continue to pay money, have no input into decisions, follow the rules and call it Brexit, but it wouldn't be Leave. We're all over sixty and naturally cynical so that probably explains it, but the sole dissenter then has now made it unanimous.

    The children continue to bicker, their inexperience of the world obvious, but the MPs see it as a chance to enhance their careers, not enact the will of the people. We had a smile at the innocence of voters, but went on to discuss more important things.

    The Remain voters among us were pleased, felt a mixture of guilt and relief, but accepted there would be understandable anger. It's a part of growing up - the realisation that the world isn't as you thought it was.. Democracy is fine, as long as it's controlled. Certain things are not allowed.

    We tend to have amicable arguments only about politics. MPs lie, good politicians do it with an air of sincerity. That's life. Raging against the dying of the light assumes there was light to begin with.

    The mistake was allowing 'old gits' to have a vote in the first place. It's the future we're talking about so leave the decision to those who it'll affect.
    A future where our sovereignty is taken away from us and slowly replaced with a soviet style union with one president one currency one set of laws One army , one anthem , power in the hands of the unaccountable wealthy elite, ruling over the plebs who are too thick to understand the complicated issues of government , which benefits big business, the rich lining their pockets at the expense of the poor, rules and dictats coming down from the echelons of Brussels telling how we have to live our lives, what we can and can’t eat , what we can and cannot say, loss of freedom of speech, and law making body that doesn’t have the protections of the magna carta and habeus corpus, erosion of our hard won freedoms , in the interests of European Unity, it’s a failed project and ultimately will self destruct .
    Great future that Roger
    Utterly bonkers.
    I think you lost us at “soviet style union”.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 10,613

    Roger said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MaxPB said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    eek said:

    On domestic matters, it'd be interesting to see how criticism of Javid over the death of Shamima Begum's son plays with the public. Are Abbott and Labour on a winner with their angle?

    My Facebook feed has several people who are hopping mad about it; but then they're the Venezuela-supporting, Putin-excusing, Corbyn-loving crowd ...

    It's like many things - a great argument until a journalist asks the first question. In this case its "and how, exactly, could we have got them back to the UK?"
    She and her dead sprog are in al-Hawl so the UK government could tell the SDF (with whom we will have embedded "advisors") to drive her to the Iraqi border at Rabia (30 minute drive).

    Some junior FO spod being punished for some fuck up would meet her at the border with a fresh passport be detailed to take to Irbil airport (maybe a 3 hour drive) and put her on a flight to Stansted via Vienna or Frankfurt. She flies Y class, infant corpse goes in the overhead locker.

    If it were Stacey fucking Dooley stuck in that camp do you think the British state couldn't have come up with a way to exfiltrate her?
    Possible yes, but why would we do any of that?
    Because that kid that The Saj just let die was an innocent British citizen and, because this is unfortunately the real world, you can't repatriate the child without its mother, Jihadi Spice.
    If Brexit has taught us anything it's that that the Great British public don't like foreigners particularly if they're Muslim
    No, it's if they're Islamists.
    How could you tell from Farage's poster whether they were merely Muslim or Islamists?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 29,040

    Roger said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MaxPB said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    eek said:

    On domestic matters, it'd be interesting to see how criticism of Javid over the death of Shamima Begum's son plays with the public. Are Abbott and Labour on a winner with their angle?

    My Facebook feed has several people who are hopping mad about it; but then they're the Venezuela-supporting, Putin-excusing, Corbyn-loving crowd ...

    It's like many things - a great argument until a journalist asks the first question. In this case its "and how, exactly, could we have got them back to the UK?"
    She and her dead sprog are in al-Hawl so the UK government could tell the SDF (with whom we will have embedded "advisors") to drive her to the Iraqi border at Rabia (30 minute drive).

    Some junior FO spod being punished for some fuck up would meet her at the border with a fresh passport be detailed to take to Irbil airport (maybe a 3 hour drive) and put her on a flight to Stansted via Vienna or Frankfurt. She flies Y class, infant corpse goes in the overhead locker.

    If it were Stacey fucking Dooley stuck in that camp do you think the British state couldn't have come up with a way to exfiltrate her?
    Possible yes, but why would we do any of that?
    Because that kid that The Saj just let die was an innocent British citizen and, because this is unfortunately the real world, you can't repatriate the child without its mother, Jihadi Spice.
    If Brexit has taught us anything it's that that the Great British public don't like foreigners particularly if they're Muslim
    No, it's if they're Islamists.
    And the 2 week old offspring of Islamists, presumably.
    Her Dutch husband wanted her to join him in the Netherlands.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 20,005

    What I don't understand is this - are the Tory ministers actually stupid or do they believe they are the only not stupid people and that everyone else is stupid.

    Crime as an example. As the Tories took a knife to police funding Home Secretary May was told in explicit detail what would happen to intelligence gathering and the awful consequences of that. No it won't she told the police, only for it to happen exactly as described.

    Now we have the spectacle of ministers trying to insist that May was right, what the police said would happen thanks to cuts might have happened but its definitely not down to cuts, and besides which here's more money so it's fixed. That the money proffered is a fraction of what has been cut doesn't seem to register.

    It's the old rule. Voters will vote for a competent bastard or an incompetent sweetie, but not an incompetent bastard. Which the Tories demonstrably are. Except of course that Brexit remains the wild card along with Jezbollah, and almost anything unpredictable can happen going forward

    Would you be willing to see stop and search increased as a temporary measure to try to tackle knife crime, whilst longer-term measure are introduced?
    Yes. Whilst I understand the concerns of the BAME communities about stop and search, it is predominantly their communities who are both carrying knives and falling victim to knives.
    +1

    So the calls on Socialist Media are for "more police" - what are these extra officers supposed to do? Twiddle their thumbs?
    Locally the issue isn't knives but it is the same age of teenager who rightly thinks there are no police and wrongly thanks to shit parenting thinks they can do what they want. The extra money for overtime is needed so that officers can be flooded into trouble areas to hassle errant teens until they realise they can't get away with this shit.

    Not that we have officers available to work overtime. My small town shares a neighbourhood policing team with neighbouring small towns. That team has just been cut by 2 PCs.

    From it's previous complement of 2 PCs...
    It is a long time ago, but my hazy memory is that Thatch, even in her extreme, sado-monetarist phase, made sure the police were well paid and had resources.

    Tories cutting police was bound to come back and haunt them.

    They need this sorting by GE 2022 or Labour will have a massive target.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 29,040
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MaxPB said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    eek said:

    On domestic matters, it'd be interesting to see how criticism of Javid over the death of Shamima Begum's son plays with the public. Are Abbott and Labour on a winner with their angle?

    My Facebook feed has several people who are hopping mad about it; but then they're the Venezuela-supporting, Putin-excusing, Corbyn-loving crowd ...

    It's like many things - a great argument until a journalist asks the first question. In this case its "and how, exactly, could we have got them back to the UK?"
    She and her dead sprog are in al-Hawl so the UK government could tell the SDF (with whom we will have embedded "advisors") to drive her to the Iraqi border at Rabia (30 minute drive).

    Some junior FO spod being punished for some fuck up would meet her at the border with a fresh passport be detailed to take to Irbil airport (maybe a 3 hour drive) and put her on a flight to Stansted via Vienna or Frankfurt. She flies Y class, infant corpse goes in the overhead locker.

    If it were Stacey fucking Dooley stuck in that camp do you think the British state couldn't have come up with a way to exfiltrate her?
    Possible yes, but why would we do any of that?
    Because that kid that The Saj just let die was an innocent British citizen and, because this is unfortunately the real world, you can't repatriate the child without its mother, Jihadi Spice.
    If Brexit has taught us anything it's that that the Great British public don't like foreigners particularly if they're Muslim
    No, it's if they're Islamists.
    How could you tell from Farage's poster whether they were merely Muslim or Islamists?
    Um, the ones that join IS, perhaps? You don't actually sympathise with IS, do you, Roger?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 3,044

    Roger said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MaxPB said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    eek said:

    On domestic matters, it'd be interesting to see how criticism of Javid over the death of Shamima Begum's son plays with the public. Are Abbott and Labour on a winner with their angle?

    My Facebook feed has several people who are hopping mad about it; but then they're the Venezuela-supporting, Putin-excusing, Corbyn-loving crowd ...

    It's like many things - a great argument until a journalist asks the first question. In this case its "and how, exactly, could we have got them back to the UK?"
    She and her dead sprog are in al-Hawl so the UK government could tell the SDF (with whom we will have embedded "advisors") to drive her to the Iraqi border at Rabia (30 minute drive).

    Some junior FO spod being punished for some fuck up would meet her at the border with a fresh passport be detailed to take to Irbil airport (maybe a 3 hour drive) and put her on a flight to Stansted via Vienna or Frankfurt. She flies Y class, infant corpse goes in the overhead locker.

    If it were Stacey fucking Dooley stuck in that camp do you think the British state couldn't have come up with a way to exfiltrate her?
    Possible yes, but why would we do any of that?
    Because that kid that The Saj just let die was an innocent British citizen and, because this is unfortunately the real world, you can't repatriate the child without its mother, Jihadi Spice.
    If Brexit has taught us anything it's that that the Great British public don't like foreigners particularly if they're Muslim
    No, it's if they're Islamists.
    And the 2 week old offspring of Islamists, presumably.
    It's his own stupid fault for not having the good sense to have been born in Berkshire.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 20,922
    Roger said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MaxPB said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    eek said:

    On domestic matters, it'd be interesting to see how criticism of Javid over the death of Shamima Begum's son plays with the public. Are Abbott and Labour on a winner with their angle?

    My Facebook feed has several people who are hopping mad about it; but then they're the Venezuela-supporting, Putin-excusing, Corbyn-loving crowd ...

    It's like many things - a great argument until a journalist asks the first question. In this case its "and how, exactly, could we have got them back to the UK?"
    She and her dead sprog are in al-Hawl so the UK government could tell the SDF (with whom we will have embedded "advisors") to drive her to the Iraqi border at Rabia (30 minute drive).

    Some junior FO spod being punished for some fuck up would meet her at the border with a fresh passport be detailed to take to Irbil airport (maybe a 3 hour drive) and put her on a flight to Stansted via Vienna or Frankfurt. She flies Y class, infant corpse goes in the overhead locker.

    If it were Stacey fucking Dooley stuck in that camp do you think the British state couldn't have come up with a way to exfiltrate her?
    Possible yes, but why would we do any of that?
    Because that kid that The Saj just let die was an innocent British citizen and, because this is unfortunately the real world, you can't repatriate the child without its mother, Jihadi Spice.
    If Brexit has taught us anything it's that that the Great British public don't like foreigners particularly if they're Muslim
    Roger I think you mean unionists don't like foreigners and why anyone would be surprised at that , means they have been living in cloud cuckoo land.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 33,167
    The media whipping themselves up into a frenzy of an Islamist, while the French approach has been to send in special forces with a hit list and kill as many of their citizens out there, before they get chance to get to a refugee camp doesn't even get a mention.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 20,922
    kjohnw said:

    Roger said:

    CD13 said:

    I had an interesting meeting last week with the old gits I drink with. We meet up sporadically to put the world to rights but one of the group reminded us about the vote we'd taken about 18 months ago. Despite being evenly split on Brexit, we'd decided by five to one that Brexit would never really happen anyway.

    Why? because the MPs didn't want it to happen and therefore it wouldn't. There might be a form of BINO where we'd continue to pay money, have no input into decisions, follow the rules and call it Brexit, but it wouldn't be Leave. We're all over sixty and naturally cynical so that probably explains it, but the sole dissenter then has now made it unanimous.

    The children continue to bicker, their inexperience of the world obvious, but the MPs see it as a chance to enhance their careers, not enact the will of the people. We had a smile at the innocence of voters, but went on to discuss more important things.

    The Remain voters among us were pleased, felt a mixture of guilt and relief, but accepted there would be understandable anger. It's a part of growing up - the realisation that the world isn't as you thought it was.. Democracy is fine, as long as it's controlled. Certain things are not allowed.

    We tend to have amicable arguments only about politics. MPs lie, good politicians do it with an air of sincerity. That's life. Raging against the dying of the light assumes there was light to begin with.

    The mistake was allowing 'old gits' to have a vote in the first place. It's the future we're talking about so leave the decision to those who it'll affect.
    A future where our sovereignty is taken away from us and slowly replaced with a soviet style union with one president one currency one set of laws One army , one anthem , power in the hands of the unaccountable wealthy elite, ruling over the plebs who are too thick to understand the complicated issues of government , which benefits big business, the rich lining their pockets at the expense of the poor, rules and dictats coming down from the echelons of Brussels telling how we have to live our lives, what we can and can’t eat , what we can and cannot say, loss of freedom of speech, and law making body that doesn’t have the protections of the magna carta and habeus corpus, erosion of our hard won freedoms , in the interests of European Unity, it’s a failed project and ultimately will self destruct .
    Great future that Roger
    CUCKOO
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 23,804
    Roger said:

    CD13 said:

    I had an interesting meeting last week with the old gits I drink with. We meet up sporadically to put the world to rights but one of the group reminded us about the vote we'd taken about 18 months ago. Despite being evenly split on Brexit, we'd decided by five to one that Brexit would never really happen anyway.

    Why? because the MPs didn't want it to happen and therefore it wouldn't. There might be a form of BINO where we'd continue to pay money, have no input into decisions, follow the rules and call it Brexit, but it wouldn't be Leave. We're all over sixty and naturally cynical so that probably explains it, but the sole dissenter then has now made it unanimous.

    The children continue to bicker, their inexperience of the world obvious, but the MPs see it as a chance to enhance their careers, not enact the will of the people. We had a smile at the innocence of voters, but went on to discuss more important things.

    The Remain voters among us were pleased, felt a mixture of guilt and relief, but accepted there would be understandable anger. It's a part of growing up - the realisation that the world isn't as you thought it was.. Democracy is fine, as long as it's controlled. Certain things are not allowed.

    We tend to have amicable arguments only about politics. MPs lie, good politicians do it with an air of sincerity. That's life. Raging against the dying of the light assumes there was light to begin with.

    The mistake was allowing 'old gits' to have a vote in the first place. It's the future we're talking about so leave the decision to those who it'll affect.
    Thank you for volunteering.

    I tust you won't be using your vote in future?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 1,552
    kjohnw said:

    A future where our sovereignty is taken away from us and slowly replaced with a soviet style union with one president one currency one set of laws One army , one anthem , power in the hands of the unaccountable wealthy elite, ruling over the plebs who are too thick to understand the complicated issues of government , which benefits big business, the rich lining their pockets at the expense of the poor, rules and dictats coming down from the echelons of Brussels telling how we have to live our lives, what we can and can’t eat , what we can and cannot say, loss of freedom of speech, and law making body that doesn’t have the protections of the magna carta and habeus corpus, erosion of our hard won freedoms , in the interests of European Unity, it’s a failed project and ultimately will self destruct .
    Great future that Roger

    Meanwhile, back at the ranch.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 591
    kjohnw said:

    Roger said:

    CD13 said:

    I had an interesting meeting last week with the old gits I drink with. We meet up sporadically to put the world to rights but one of the group reminded us about the vote we'd taken about 18 months ago. Despite being evenly split on Brexit, we'd decided by five to one that Brexit would never really happen anyway.

    Why? because the MPs didn't want it to happen and therefore it wouldn't. There might be a form of BINO where we'd continue to pay money, have no input into decisions, follow the rules and call it Brexit, but it wouldn't be Leave. We're all over sixty and naturally cynical so that probably explains it, but the sole dissenter then has now made it unanimous.

    The children continue to bicker, their inexperience of the world obvious, but the MPs see it as a chance to enhance their careers, not enact the will of the people. We had a smile at the innocence of voters, but went on to discuss more important things.

    The Remain voters among us were pleased, felt a mixture of guilt and relief, but accepted there would be understandable anger. It's a part of growing up - the realisation that the world isn't as you thought it was.. Democracy is fine, as long as it's controlled. Certain things are not allowed.

    We tend to have amicable arguments only about politics. MPs lie, good politicians do it with an air of sincerity. That's life. Raging against the dying of the light assumes there was light to begin with.

    The mistake was allowing 'old gits' to have a vote in the first place. It's the future we're talking about so leave the decision to those who it'll affect.
    A future where our sovereignty is taken away from us and slowly replaced with a soviet style union with one president one currency one set of laws One army , one anthem , power in the hands of the unaccountable wealthy elite, ruling over the plebs who are too thick to understand the complicated issues of government , which benefits big business, the rich lining their pockets at the expense of the poor, rules and dictats coming down from the echelons of Brussels telling how we have to live our lives, what we can and can’t eat , what we can and cannot say, loss of freedom of speech, and law making body that doesn’t have the protections of the magna carta and habeus corpus, erosion of our hard won freedoms , in the interests of European Unity, it’s a failed project and ultimately will self destruct .
    Great future that Roger
    Oh of course Mogg and Johnson aren’t one of the elites but freedom fighters ! Exactly what rules from Brussels have caused you such trauma ?
  • eekeek Posts: 3,169
    edited March 9

    eek said:

    On domestic matters, it'd be interesting to see how criticism of Javid over the death of Shamima Begum's son plays with the public. Are Abbott and Labour on a winner with their angle?

    My Facebook feed has several people who are hopping mad about it; but then they're the Venezuela-supporting, Putin-excusing, Corbyn-loving crowd ...

    It's like many things - a great argument until a journalist asks the first question. In this case its "and how, exactly, could we have got them back to the UK?"
    As has been pointed out, UK journos and aid workers are going in and out of the region regularly so there's no impassable barrier to movement.

    It's almost impressive the way that this government has gone from big, tough Javid keeping the British public safe and making it clear that Daesh scum have relinquished their rights to UK citizenship, to bleating feebly about not having the mechanisms to evac people.

    Almost impressive if you haven't already priced in them being self-serving, principle-free no marks.

    Those aid workers and journalists have paperwork to confirm who they are and aren’t subject to arrest in either country you have to pass through to get from the camp to the UK. There is a problem, if the route is via a country that wants to arrest you, you don’t have ID that confirms who you are, and that ID would result in you being arrested as soon as you entered the intermediate country.

    So as I stated in my previous post, she has a few problems that make things slightly more difficult than others make out.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 2,944
    She was radicalized and groomed. To be spirited away from her home to be married and shagged underage. To be incorporated into a death cult. Had she joined a religious cult to be illegally married and impregnated, her rights would be clear. Instead she joined a fake state slaughtering all they could slaughter - but she was still radicalized groomed and married whilst still a child.

    That she has lost her children is a tragedy but not something that is our doing - it's hers. As ye sow so shall ye reap. Nor do I think we should be spending cash or risking lives to extract her. But I do think she is a British citizen who has right and responsibilities. We seem to be trying to palm her off on a 3rd country she has no immediate connection to - is that the policy now, to try and force British suspected terrorists onto 3rd countries? Or do we take ownership of the situation and bring her to justice?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 24,610
    London & Capital Finance have gone bust (surprise, surprise). https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-47454328

    The BBC story is, of course, all about the "victims" who apparently didn't realise that a fixed rate return of 8% on an ISA just might involve some risk. They may not have known that the company that ran the advertising campaign was getting 25% commission on the money raised (making the returns required up to 44% according to the Administrator) but did they really think that was possible?

    Am I alone in thinking that these people have been both greedy and stupid and that it is utterly hypocritical to now seek to blame a regulator for them being both?
  • DavidL said:

    London & Capital Finance have gone bust (surprise, surprise). https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-47454328

    The BBC story is, of course, all about the "victims" who apparently didn't realise that a fixed rate return of 8% on an ISA just might involve some risk. They may not have known that the company that ran the advertising campaign was getting 25% commission on the money raised (making the returns required up to 44% according to the Administrator) but did they really think that was possible?

    Am I alone in thinking that these people have been both greedy and stupid and that it is utterly hypocritical to now seek to blame a regulator for them being both?

    Not alone - but mistaken - assuming L&C were regulated by the FCA/ PRU then it is obvious that they failed in their regulatory duties. To have form, the FCA should fine the PRU (and vice-versa) substantial amounts for failure to have adequate systems and controls to monitor L&C. The FSCS is there specifically as a 'backstop' should the FCA fail in their duty.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 24,610

    DavidL said:

    London & Capital Finance have gone bust (surprise, surprise). https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-47454328

    The BBC story is, of course, all about the "victims" who apparently didn't realise that a fixed rate return of 8% on an ISA just might involve some risk. They may not have known that the company that ran the advertising campaign was getting 25% commission on the money raised (making the returns required up to 44% according to the Administrator) but did they really think that was possible?

    Am I alone in thinking that these people have been both greedy and stupid and that it is utterly hypocritical to now seek to blame a regulator for them being both?

    Not alone - but mistaken - assuming L&C were regulated by the FCA/ PRU then it is obvious that they failed in their regulatory duties. To have form, the FCA should fine the PRU (and vice-versa) substantial amounts for failure to have adequate systems and controls to monitor L&C. The FSCS is there specifically as a 'backstop' should the FCA fail in their duty.
    I am not suggesting that the FCA have not been incompetent. Of course they have. But the poor me moaning sticks in my throat.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 4,973

    On domestic matters, it'd be interesting to see how criticism of Javid over the death of Shamima Begum's son plays with the public. Are Abbott and Labour on a winner with their angle?

    My Facebook feed has several people who are hopping mad about it; but then they're the Venezuela-supporting, Putin-excusing, Corbyn-loving crowd ...

    I doubt this will help Labour much, but will likely reinforce negative perceptions of Tories.

    I suspect the charge that Javid has done this for political reasons rather than on the merits of the case may be more damaging that the actual decision itself.
  • Roger said:

    CD13 said:

    I had an interesting meeting last week with the old gits I drink with. We meet up sporadically to put the world to rights but one of the group reminded us about the vote we'd taken about 18 months ago. Despite being evenly split on Brexit, we'd decided by five to one that Brexit would never really happen anyway.
    .. snip..
    The Remain voters among us were pleased, felt a mixture of guilt and relief, but accepted there would be understandable anger. It's a part of growing up - the realisation that the world isn't as you thought it was.. Democracy is fine, as long as it's controlled. Certain things are not allowed.

    We tend to have amicable arguments only about politics. MPs lie, good politicians do it with an air of sincerity. That's life. Raging against the dying of the light assumes there was light to begin with.

    The mistake was allowing 'old gits' to have a vote in the first place. It's the future we're talking about so leave the decision to those who it'll affect.
    Thank you for volunteering.

    I tust you won't be using your vote in future?

    Roger said:

    CD13 said:

    I had an interesting meeting last week with the old gits I drink with. We meet up sporadically to put the world to rights but one of the group reminded us about the vote we'd taken about 18 months ago. Despite being evenly split on Brexit, we'd decided by five to one that Brexit would never really happen anyway.

    Why? because the MPs didn't want it to happen and therefore it wouldn't. There might be a form of BINO where we'd continue to pay money, have no input into decisions, follow the rules and call it Brexit, but it wouldn't be Leave. We're all over sixty and naturally cynical so that probably explains it, but the sole dissenter then has now made it unanimous.

    .. snip..

    We tend to have amicable arguments only about politics. MPs lie, good politicians do it with an air of sincerity. That's life. Raging against the dying of the light assumes there was light to begin with.

    The mistake was allowing 'old gits' to have a vote in the first place. It's the future we're talking about so leave the decision to those who it'll affect.
    Thank you for volunteering.

    I tust you won't be using your vote in future?
    On Guido there is a note about Lib Dems changing a referendum decision because the youngsters voted against it. https://order-order.com/2019/03/07/lib-dems-reverse-referendum-result-old-people-voted-way-wanted/
  • I'm not sure if it is a big philosophical shift or just an indication that the public can see what is happening to public services. They are clearly starved of cash. I can give plenty of anecdotes from my own experience: it's now impossible to get an appointment at our local surgery; our daughter's school is laying off teachers; our local leisure centre is falling apart; our street is dirty; kids are getting mugged regularly in our neighbourhood and the police are nowhere; I could go on. Meanwhile the government is cutting tax for big corporations and cut the top rate of income tax. They and their donor class friends are living in a different world to the rest of us. I think the Tories are very vulnerable at the next election, even against Corbyn, and whatever happens with B****t.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 20,005
    DavidL said:

    London & Capital Finance have gone bust (surprise, surprise). https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-47454328

    The BBC story is, of course, all about the "victims" who apparently didn't realise that a fixed rate return of 8% on an ISA just might involve some risk. They may not have known that the company that ran the advertising campaign was getting 25% commission on the money raised (making the returns required up to 44% according to the Administrator) but did they really think that was possible?

    Am I alone in thinking that these people have been both greedy and stupid and that it is utterly hypocritical to now seek to blame a regulator for them being both?

    I note that a Mr Careless is involved in this company.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 10,613
    kjohnw said:

    Roger said:

    CD13 said:

    I had an interesting meeting last week with the old gits I drink with. We meet up sporadically to put the world to rights but one of the group reminded us about the vote we'd taken about 18 months ago. Despite being evenly split on Brexit, we'd decided by five to one that Brexit would never really happen anyway.

    Why? because the MPs didn't want it to happen and therefore it wouldn't. There might be a form of BINO where we'd continue to pay money, have no input into decisions, follow the rules and call it Brexit, but it wouldn't be Leave. We're all over sixty and naturally cynical so that probably explains it, but the sole dissenter then has now made it unanimous.

    The children continue to bicker, their inexperience of the world obvious, but the MPs see it as a chance to enhance their careers, not enact the will of the people. We had a smile at the innocence of voters, but went on to discuss more important things.

    The Remain voters among us were pleased, felt a mixture of guilt and relief, but accepted there would be understandable anger. It's a part of growing up - the realisation that the world isn't as you thought it was.. Democracy is fine, as long as it's controlled. Certain things are not allowed.

    We tend to have amicable arguments only about politics. MPs lie, good politicians do it with an air of sincerity. That's life. Raging against the dying of the light assumes there was light to begin with.

    The mistake was allowing 'old gits' to have a vote in the first place. It's the future we're talking about so leave the decision to those who it'll affect.
    A future where our sovereignty is taken away from us and slowly replaced with a soviet style union with one president one currency one set of laws One army , one anthem , power in the hands of the unaccountable wealthy elite, ruling over the plebs who are too thick to understand the complicated issues of government , which benefits big business, the rich lining their pockets at the expense of the poor, rules and dictats coming down from the echelons of Brussels telling how we have to live our lives, what we can and can’t eat , what we can and cannot say, loss of freedom of speech, and law making body that doesn’t have the protections of the magna carta and habeus corpus, erosion of our hard won freedoms , in the interests of European Unity, it’s a failed project and ultimately will self destruct .
    Great future that Roger
    Reductio ad absurdum. Even if that was a logical destination to the course we were on why not wait until it had shown itself. For instance a treaty that we would find unacceptable. At least we'd then have somthing more tangible to rage against and we might even have had a consensus.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 10,354

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_P said:
    Rat Eyes certainly wants it badly enough which is the first and most important qualification. He was a remainer and is now obviously lying about changing his mind. Will that be sufficient for the largely senescent tory membership? He's certainly more of a value bet than Raabocop or The Saj.
    My wallet would be very happy if Hunt takes the crown.

    Not convinced though that anyone can beat Boris if he makes last two, so it is down to moderate MPs to engineer things if they want anyone but Boris.
    I'm green on Hunt but he seems to have confirmed he is a bit of a lightweight with his posturing over newly-recruited British ambassador to the Iranian prison system, Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, which fits with Hunt's earlier Eurosausage disputes with junior hospital doctors and the BBC over The Apprentice. It is a shame because soon after Hunt's appointment, Iran did seem to be softening over Zaghari-Ratcliffe so if Hunt can spring her, we might still be paid out.
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,096
    malcolmg said:

    kjohnw said:

    Roger said:

    CD13 said:

    I had an interesting meeting last week with the old gits I drink with. We meet up sporadically to put the world to rights but one of the group reminded us about the vote we'd taken about 18 months ago. Despite being evenly split on Brexit, we'd decided by five to one that Brexit would never really happen anyway.

    Why? because the MPs didn't want it to happen and therefore it wouldn't. There might be a form of BINO where we'd continue to pay money, have no input into decisions, follow the rules and call it Brexit, but it wouldn't be Leave. We're all over sixty and naturally cynical so that probably explains it, but the sole dissenter then has now made it unanimous.

    The children continue to bicker, their inexperience of the world obvious, but the MPs see it as a chance to enhance their careers, not enact the will of the people. We had a smile at the innocence of voters, but went on to discuss more important things.

    The Remain voters among us were pleased, felt a mixture of guilt and relief, but accepted there would be understandable anger. It's a part of growing up - the realisation that the world isn't as you thought it was.. Democracy is fine, as long as it's controlled. Certain things are not allowed.

    We tend to have amicable arguments only about politics. MPs lie, good politicians do it with an air of sincerity. That's life. Raging against the dying of the light assumes there was light to begin with.

    The mistake was allowing 'old gits' to have a vote in the first place. It's the future we're talking about so leave the decision to those who it'll affect.


    CUCKOO
    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eu-directly-elected-president-jean-claude-juncker-european-council-donald-tusk-poland-rule-of-law-a8210736.html?amp

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6316567/amp/Woman-correctly-convicted-Austria-calling-Prophet-Mohammed-paedophile-ECHR-rules.html

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/innocent-until-proven-guilty-not-under-the-eu-s-justice-system-8931215.html?amp

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/world/1070319/eu-army-european-joint-military-force-pesco-uk-germany-france/amp

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/a-greek-tragedy-how-the-eu-is-destroying-a-country/amp/

    Cuckoo?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 24,610

    DavidL said:

    London & Capital Finance have gone bust (surprise, surprise). https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-47454328

    The BBC story is, of course, all about the "victims" who apparently didn't realise that a fixed rate return of 8% on an ISA just might involve some risk. They may not have known that the company that ran the advertising campaign was getting 25% commission on the money raised (making the returns required up to 44% according to the Administrator) but did they really think that was possible?

    Am I alone in thinking that these people have been both greedy and stupid and that it is utterly hypocritical to now seek to blame a regulator for them being both?

    I note that a Mr Careless is involved in this company.
    Yes and I suspect that the administrator will be looking very carefully at the payments received by his company for a marketing campaign that was banned as misleading. Interesting name in the circumstances.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 11,875

    TGOHF said:

    On domestic matters, it'd be interesting to see how criticism of Javid over the death of Shamima Begum's son plays with the public. Are Abbott and Labour on a winner with their angle?

    My Facebook feed has several people who are hopping mad about it; but then they're the Venezuela-supporting, Putin-excusing, Corbyn-loving crowd ...

    Sad the level of debate on this. This daft bint went off to a third world hell hole and got knocked up - her decisions caused these outcomes entirely.

    Also infant mortality in the third world is still high - yet the one bairn that causes the outrage is the celebrity baby. Shallow. Cry for them all or none - and do something about it - like mega wealthy capitalist Bill Gates has.
    My own (somewhat mixed) views:

    I have no sympathy with Begum's plight. True, she was a minor when she voluntarily left the UK, but her words (at least the ones I have heard) since she has resurfaced seem akin to: "Well, we tried, we lost. You must let me come back" - she doesn't seem to accept the horror she chose to become part of, or show any contrition.

    (If someone can point me to an interview where she accepts the horrors of ISIS, I'd be grateful.)

    I have -5k sympathy with her husband.

    I have massive sympathy for the dead child. I'ts heartbreaking.

    However: I also have massive sympathy with the other women and children who died because of the actions of the group she chose to join, and which her husband aided, directly or indirectly. They, not Begum, are the victims in this.

    It's a hideous mess. But Begum placed herself, and her children, into danger.

    Yet I also don't like her being made stateless.

    As I said, mixed.
    I think her age is relevant - we are rightly disgusted when adults groom underage girls to have sex with them, but seemingly indifferent when adults groom underage girls to accompany them when they fight for ISIS.

    After all that's happened I'm not sure it's reasonable, or even relevant, to judge her by her current thoughts on ISIS, which have sounded thoroughly confused anyway. The issue should be what she's actually done (so far, AFAIK nobody has accused her of anything except being there) and what degree of influence she was under - not what her opinions are. Should the decision be different if she said she was terribly remorseful and planned to join the CoE and the Girl Scouts on returning?

    TGOHF is of course right that there are millions of kids in desperate situations and we're focusing on one because it's easier to get our heads round it. But if we are talking about her, my vote on current evidence would be to let her back. The husband? No - if she wants to be with him, then Holland seems to be the natural place.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 10,354
    OT the Cheltenham weather forecast for the first two days features heavy rain and gales. If racing is called off we might have to watch Brexit instead. Sky currently has 7/4 soft and 10/1 heavy for the official going of the Supreme but dyor and remember sometimes the official going is wrong.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 25,763
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    London & Capital Finance have gone bust (surprise, surprise). https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-47454328

    The BBC story is, of course, all about the "victims" who apparently didn't realise that a fixed rate return of 8% on an ISA just might involve some risk. They may not have known that the company that ran the advertising campaign was getting 25% commission on the money raised (making the returns required up to 44% according to the Administrator) but did they really think that was possible?

    Am I alone in thinking that these people have been both greedy and stupid and that it is utterly hypocritical to now seek to blame a regulator for them being both?

    Not alone - but mistaken - assuming L&C were regulated by the FCA/ PRU then it is obvious that they failed in their regulatory duties. To have form, the FCA should fine the PRU (and vice-versa) substantial amounts for failure to have adequate systems and controls to monitor L&C. The FSCS is there specifically as a 'backstop' should the FCA fail in their duty.
    I am not suggesting that the FCA have not been incompetent. Of course they have. But the poor me moaning sticks in my throat.
    It's not just corporations who want to privatise profits and nationalise losses.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 10,354
    DavidL said:

    London & Capital Finance have gone bust (surprise, surprise). https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-47454328

    The BBC story is, of course, all about the "victims" who apparently didn't realise that a fixed rate return of 8% on an ISA just might involve some risk. They may not have known that the company that ran the advertising campaign was getting 25% commission on the money raised (making the returns required up to 44% according to the Administrator) but did they really think that was possible?

    Am I alone in thinking that these people have been both greedy and stupid and that it is utterly hypocritical to now seek to blame a regulator for them being both?

    No, regulators should regulate because otherwise the system is even more rigged in favour of the sophisticated investor, and those wealthy enough to employ top advisors. We already have a system where global banks get more protection than the saver in the street, and the banks really are supposed to know what they are doing.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Roger said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MaxPB said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    eek said:

    On domestic matters, it'd be interesting to see how criticism of Javid over the death of Shamima Begum's son plays with the public. Are Abbott and Labour on a winner with their angle?

    My Facebook feed has several people who are hopping mad about it; but then they're the Venezuela-supporting, Putin-excusing, Corbyn-loving crowd ...

    It's like many things - a great argument until a journalist asks the first question. In this case its "and how, exactly, could we have got them back to the UK?"
    She and her dead sprog are in al-Hawl so the UK government could tell the SDF (with whom we will have embedded "advisors") to drive her to the Iraqi border at Rabia (30 minute drive).

    Some junior FO spod being punished for some fuck up would meet her at the border with a fresh passport be detailed to take to Irbil airport (maybe a 3 hour drive) and put her on a flight to Stansted via Vienna or Frankfurt. She flies Y class, infant corpse goes in the overhead locker.

    If it were Stacey fucking Dooley stuck in that camp do you think the British state couldn't have come up with a way to exfiltrate her?
    Possible yes, but why would we do any of that?
    Because that kid that The Saj just let die was an innocent British citizen and, because this is unfortunately the real world, you can't repatriate the child without its mother, Jihadi Spice.
    If Brexit has taught us anything it's that that the Great British public don't like foreigners particularly if they're Muslim
    Maybe you should speak out against this Roger,the local labour MP didn't.

This discussion has been closed.