That looks like billions which could have been spent on the NHS.
The tax loss equates to somewhere around 85% of our net annual contribution to the EU.
So in that respect, you could say that the EU might be well on the way to making good the deficit to the their budget which would result from our leaving.
It is only one part of what will be lost, of course. Other businesses are also relocating. yet more that might otherwise have come here will not. All this is a direct and entirely predictable consequence of the red lines that May drew. Brexit was always going to mean less inward investment and fewer opportunities. May exacerbated it - cheered on by the swivel-eyed Buccaneers.
I'm mildly surprised the figures aren't being challenged (or dismissed) by the Buccaneers.
We've had reports for years that tax revenues are going to be damaged etc
While it may eventually be true the evidence so far is tax revenues coming in better than expected.
And what has clearly not happened is the 200,000+ job losses in the UK financial sector we were told would have happened by now.
And neither do we have countless free trade agreements with countries across the world or a deal with the EU that has all the benefits of membership and none of the downsides. Instead, we are less than three weeks from leaving on terms that absolutely no-one set out at the time of the referendum.
All that shows is that our politicians, and Liam Fox specifically, are incompetents and they would be incompetents whether we had voted Leave or voted Remain.
But those 200,000+ financial job losses which you Remainers assured us would have happened by now haven't happened.
So what does that make the people who claimed those job losses were going to happen ?
Speaking from a hotel in sunny Bangkok it’s hard to get a grasp of where things are in Brexitland
Shall we do a round up of Pb-ers expected outcomes? Here are my latest thoughts, in descending order
1. Extension plus referendum: 30% 2. No deal crash Brexit, March 29: 25% 3. TMay deal passes (maybe after short extension): 20% 4. Extension plus GE: 15% 5. Revoke: 5% 6. Black Swan/Anglo-Chinese war: 5%
What do others think?
Last minute TM deal with fudge and a technical extension for the legislation 90% No deal 5% Remainer coup 5%
On McDonnell, my main concern about him being a contender to succeed Corbyn is his age; he is only 2 years younger than Jezza. Mind you I've backed Biden, Bernie and Trump...
That looks like billions which could have been spent on the NHS.
The tax loss equates to somewhere around 85% of our net annual contribution to the EU.
So in that respect, you could say that the EU might be well on the way to making good the deficit to the their budget which would result from our leaving.
It is only one part of what will be lost, of course. Other businesses are also relocating. yet more that might otherwise have come here will not. All this is a direct and entirely predictable consequence of the red lines that May drew. Brexit was always going to mean less inward investment and fewer opportunities. May exacerbated it - cheered on by the swivel-eyed Buccaneers.
I'm mildly surprised the figures aren't being challenged (or dismissed) by the Buccaneers.
We've had reports for years that tax revenues are going to be damaged etc
While it may eventually be true the evidence so far is tax revenues coming in better than expected.
And what has clearly not happened is the 200,000+ job losses in the UK financial sector we were told would have happened by now.
And neither do we have countless free trade agreements with countries across the world or a deal with the EU that has all the benefits of membership and none of the downsides. Instead, we are less than three weeks from leaving on terms that absolutely no-one set out at the time of the referendum.
All that shows is that our politicians, and Liam Fox specifically, are incompetents and they would be incompetents whether we had voted Leave or voted Remain.
But those 200,000+ financial job losses which you Remainers assured us would have happened by now haven't happened.
So what does that make the people who claimed those job losses were going to happen ?
I think you'll struggle to find anything from me making any claim resembling one that 200,000 jobs in the financial sector would be gone by now. In fact, what I predicted Brexit would lead to is exactly what is happening now - except the bit about our politicians being so utterly incompetent. Not even I was expecting that.
1. Extension plus referendum: 30% 2. No deal crash Brexit, March 29: 25% 3. TMay deal passes (maybe after short extension): 20% 4. Extension plus GE: 15% 5. Revoke: 5% 6. Black Swan/Anglo-Chinese war: 5%
0. Endless extensions: 20% 1. Extension plus referendum: 30% 2. No deal crash Brexit, March 29: 5% 3. TMay deal passes (maybe after short extension): 20% 4. Extension plus GE: 15% 5. Just go right out there and Revoke: 5% 6. Black Swan/Anglo-Manx war: 5%
On McDonnell, my main concern about him being a contender to succeed Corbyn is his age; he is only 2 years younger than Jezza. Mind you I've backed Biden, Bernie and Trump...
What an inspiring bunch of oldies.
My mind immediately springs to Fidel and Raul Castro
Perhaps what worries me most about all this isn't whether we leave the EU or not and how but the general and almost visceral contempt in which all politicians now seem to be held.
We see it here - as soon as someone's name is mentioned, from whatever side, in go the verbal Doc Martens amid a general notion of "incompetence" and, if we're lucky, a wistful nostalgic notion of how the generation which brought us Suez would have done better.
Do we get the politicians we deserve? I'm not sure - do we get the political system we deserve? Maybe. I'm of the view we need a root-and-branch review and a national debate about how our politics functions from the role of parties to the structures to the electoral system. If we are looking, post-EU, to design a country and society for the 21st Century, then we need the political structures, forms and leadership to mirror and empower that.
1. Extension plus referendum: 30% 2. No deal crash Brexit, March 29: 25% 3. TMay deal passes (maybe after short extension): 20% 4. Extension plus GE: 15% 5. Revoke: 5% 6. Black Swan/Anglo-Chinese war: 5%
What do others think?
0. Endless extensions: 20% 1. Extension plus referendum: 30% 2. No deal crash Brexit, March 29: 5% 3. TMay deal passes (maybe after short extension): 20% 4. Extension plus GE: 15% 5. Just go right out there and Revoke: 5% 6. Black Swan/Anglo-Manx war: 5%
For the 29th March deadline I'll go
Extension 90% No deal 10%
Once we've extended, we get into recursive extensions:
Wollaston is just a ludicrous figure. Recall she actually campaigned for Leave and then had a Damascene conversion at the 11th hour and decided Leaving was literally insane even though she’d been campaigning for it for months.
She was so clearly a Cameroon cuckoo planted in the Leave nest, meant to explode Leave from within. It was mortifying. No doubt she did it because Cameron promised her some job after he’d won. Oh dear. That worked out well.
Wollaston summarizes everything wrong with our politics. She is as foolish and unprincipled as they come. And I readily confess brexit has revealed some utterly clueless morons on the Leave side as well.
What did we do to deserve this?
If Carole Codswallop is looking for people to investigate regarding misleading the public then Wollaston should be at the front of the queue ahead of Arron Banks. There are plenty of incompetent MPs on both sides of the Brexit debate but none as dodgy as Wollaston.
The mad Brexiters are still foaming as their utterly wretched project brings the country to the brink.
As far as I can tell, Ms Woollaston stared into the abyss of Brexit and then rather wisely stepped back.
That makes her smarter than every single Brexiter on this board including such luminaries as SeanT, Charles, and the great rcs1000 himself.
You actually seriously literally believe this? That Wollaston was a convinced Leaver, so much so she campaigned for it, then had a 180 degree conversion a minute before the referendum? This is the same Wollaston who is now such a zealous Remainer she has quit the Tory party to argue for a second referendum.
Believing her idiotic lies makes you stupider than the cheapest IKEA sofa cushion, let alone any sentient organism.
Wollaston is just a ludicrous figure. Recall she actually campaigned for Leave and then had a Damascene conversion at the 11th hour and decided Leaving was literally insane even though she’d been campaigning for it for months.
She was so clearly a Cameroon cuckoo planted in the Leave nest, meant to explode Leave from within. It was mortifying. No doubt she did it because Cameron promised her some job after he’d won. Oh dear. That worked out well.
Wollaston summarizes everything wrong with our politics. She is as foolish and unprincipled as they come. And I readily confess brexit has revealed some utterly clueless morons on the Leave side as well.
What did we do to deserve this?
Didn't you vote for it ?
Yes.
I don’t know how I would vote in a 2nd referendum.
Perhaps what worries me most about all this isn't whether we leave the EU or not and how but the general and almost visceral contempt in which all politicians now seem to be held.
We see it here - as soon as someone's name is mentioned, from whatever side, in go the verbal Doc Martens amid a general notion of "incompetence" and, if we're lucky, a wistful nostalgic notion of how the generation which brought us Suez would have done better.
Do we get the politicians we deserve? I'm not sure - do we get the political system we deserve? Maybe. I'm of the view we need a root-and-branch review and a national debate about how our politics functions from the role of parties to the structures to the electoral system. If we are looking, post-EU, to design a country and society for the 21st Century, then we need the political structures, forms and leadership to mirror and empower that.
I would agree but I come back to my perennial point that the main problem is the power wielded by political parties. If MPs were more properly answerable to their constituents rather than to party managers then we would have a much better functioning political system across the board.
It is interesting looking at the predictions on here this morning and seeing how in % terms they tend to follow people's personal views on what they would like to see happen.
I have no idea what will happen and don't know how anyone can assess the likelihood of any outcome. I think the last few months have proven that there is no logic to Parliamentary votes or May's reactions to them.
If you think the EU are inflexible on May's deal - wait until you see them on an extension.
The MPs vote on the terms of the extension will be fun - I totes think that £ Billion for 3 months is well worth it and I commend that the taxpayer money to be sent to Brussels.
Also if by a miracle they ever got there, on the actual trade deal rather than just how to discuss one. A real reaming they will give the UK on that one given May has surrendered everything up front.
There are 250 or so MP's, (Remain and Leave) who are prepared to compromise to achieve Brexit, and 400 or so who are not.
There has never been a majority of MPs who favour Brexit. Everything that has happened since the referendum has been an excerise in stopping Brexit (or forcing BINO) and finding a way of making someone else carry the can for doing so.
It will likely work, but MPs are opening Pandora's box.
1. Extension plus referendum: 30% 2. No deal crash Brexit, March 29: 25% 3. TMay deal passes (maybe after short extension): 20% 4. Extension plus GE: 15% 5. Revoke: 5% 6. Black Swan/Anglo-Chinese war: 5%
What do others think?
0. Endless extensions: 20% 1. Extension plus referendum: 30% 2. No deal crash Brexit, March 29: 5% 3. TMay deal passes (maybe after short extension): 20% 4. Extension plus GE: 15% 5. Just go right out there and Revoke: 5% 6. Black Swan/Anglo-Manx war: 5%
For the 29th March deadline I'll go
Extension 90% No deal 10%
Once we've extended, we get into recursive extensions:
Further Extension 50% Deal 25% No deal 25%
Basically agree, but for every additional extension, subtract 5% from Deal and No Deal and add 10% to Further Extension.
PS I vaguely recall something about late projects - I think this is in a Nassim Taleb book - where it's taken x days so far, the best-guess ETA is another x days. So if Brexit isn't done this month, you guess end 2022, and then 2027, and then...
1. Extension plus referendum: 30% 2. No deal crash Brexit, March 29: 25% 3. TMay deal passes (maybe after short extension): 20% 4. Extension plus GE: 15% 5. Revoke: 5% 6. Black Swan/Anglo-Chinese war: 5%
What do others think?
0. Endless extensions: 20% 1. Extension plus referendum: 30% 2. No deal crash Brexit, March 29: 5% 3. TMay deal passes (maybe after short extension): 20% 4. Extension plus GE: 15% 5. Just go right out there and Revoke: 5% 6. Black Swan/Anglo-Manx war: 5%
For the 29th March deadline I'll go
Extension 90% No deal 10%
Once we've extended, we get into recursive extensions:
Further Extension 50% Deal 25% No deal 25%
Basically agree, but for every additional extension, subtract 5% from Deal and No Deal and add 10% to Further Extension.
PS I vaguely recall something about late projects - I think this is in a Nassim Taleb book - where it's taken x days so far, the best-guess ETA is another x days. So if Brexit isn't done this month, you guess end 2022, and then 2027, and then...
Yes, I'm really not sure what happens after extension 1. So 50-50 exit/further extension it is.
Telegraph suggesting that an extension will cost at least £1bn per month.
What a bargain eh - will your MP sign up for your taxes to be spent on that ?
They are also saying this is in addition to the 39bill.
The story is a pack of lies . The EU have said there’s no more money to pay , the UK obligations remain the same even with an extension .
Actually I would suggest that whilst it may not be a direct quote from the EU (they would not be that daft) it is in fact accurate as a reflection of what would happen.
The £39 billion covers the amount the EU say we owe for programmes plus ongoing membership fees for the transition period. If the transition period is delayed then the start of the payment of the £39 billion is delayed and we continue to pay as a member of the EU - which would indeed cost somewhere around £1 billion a month.
This is not some additional cost being heaped on us by the EU but a cost we are ourselves putting on the country by postponing leaving.
It is interesting looking at the predictions on here this morning and seeing how in % terms they tend to follow people's personal views on what they would like to see happen.
I have no idea what will happen and don't know how anyone can assess the likelihood of any outcome. I think the last few months have proven that there is no logic to Parliamentary votes or May's reactions to them.
I think the rule of thumb with Brexit from here is to imagine the worst outcome and go with that. On that basis, I expect No Deal because no-one has managed to find a way to prevent it.
On McDonnell, my main concern about him being a contender to succeed Corbyn is his age; he is only 2 years younger than Jezza. Mind you I've backed Biden, Bernie and Trump...
What an inspiring bunch of oldies.
The baby boomer generation just won't FO. Truly the narcissist, look at me generation.
It is interesting looking at the predictions on here this morning and seeing how in % terms they tend to follow people's personal views on what they would like to see happen.
I have no idea what will happen and don't know how anyone can assess the likelihood of any outcome. I think the last few months have proven that there is no logic to Parliamentary votes or May's reactions to them.
I think the rule of thumb with Brexit from here is to imagine the worst outcome and go with that. On that basis, I expect No Deal because no-one has managed to find a way to prevent it.
But as I say that reflects your view of Brexit overall. You may be right (though of course I disagree with you) but it doesn't really translate into realistic odds. If one is being honest the only real answer at the moment is 'who knows?'
It is interesting looking at the predictions on here this morning and seeing how in % terms they tend to follow people's personal views on what they would like to see happen.
I'd like to clarify that I am strongly opposed to an Anglo-Manx war
1. Extension plus referendum: 30% 2. No deal crash Brexit, March 29: 25% 3. TMay deal passes (maybe after short extension): 20% 4. Extension plus GE: 15% 5. Revoke: 5% 6. Black Swan/Anglo-Chinese war: 5%
What do others think?
0. Endless extensions: 20% 1. Extension plus referendum: 30% 2. No deal crash Brexit, March 29: 5% 3. TMay deal passes (maybe after short extension): 20% 4. Extension plus GE: 15% 5. Just go right out there and Revoke: 5% 6. Black Swan/Anglo-Manx war: 5%
For the 29th March deadline I'll go
Extension 90% No deal 10%
Once we've extended, we get into recursive extensions:
Further Extension 50% Deal 25% No deal 25%
Basically agree, but for every additional extension, subtract 5% from Deal and No Deal and add 10% to Further Extension.
PS I vaguely recall something about late projects - I think this is in a Nassim Taleb book - where it's taken x days so far, the best-guess ETA is another x days. So if Brexit isn't done this month, you guess end 2022, and then 2027, and then...
That's a general rule for anything where you have to make an estimate of duration in the absence of any information. How long will Hadrian's Wall last? It's been there since the third century so the best bet is until around the year 4,000. So applying the same rule Brexit will finally be cancelled in about 3 years time.
It is interesting looking at the predictions on here this morning and seeing how in % terms they tend to follow people's personal views on what they would like to see happen.
I'd like to clarify that I am strongly opposed to an Anglo-Manx war
LOL. We should try and work out who would win that one.
1. Extension plus referendum: 30% 2. No deal crash Brexit, March 29: 25% 3. TMay deal passes (maybe after short extension): 20% 4. Extension plus GE: 15% 5. Revoke: 5% 6. Black Swan/Anglo-Chinese war: 5%
What do others think?
0. Endless extensions: 20% 1. Extension plus referendum: 30% 2. No deal crash Brexit, March 29: 5% 3. TMay deal passes (maybe after short extension): 20% 4. Extension plus GE: 15% 5. Just go right out there and Revoke: 5% 6. Black Swan/Anglo-Manx war: 5%
For the 29th March deadline I'll go
Extension 90% No deal 10%
Once we've extended, we get into recursive extensions:
Further Extension 50% Deal 25% No deal 25%
Basically agree, but for every additional extension, subtract 5% from Deal and No Deal and add 10% to Further Extension.
PS I vaguely recall something about late projects - I think this is in a Nassim Taleb book - where it's taken x days so far, the best-guess ETA is another x days. So if Brexit isn't done this month, you guess end 2022, and then 2027, and then...
It is interesting looking at the predictions on here this morning and seeing how in % terms they tend to follow people's personal views on what they would like to see happen.
I have no idea what will happen and don't know how anyone can assess the likelihood of any outcome. I think the last few months have proven that there is no logic to Parliamentary votes or May's reactions to them.
I think the rule of thumb with Brexit from here is to imagine the worst outcome and go with that. On that basis, I expect No Deal because no-one has managed to find a way to prevent it.
But as I say that reflects your view of Brexit overall. You may be right (though of course I disagree with you) but it doesn't really translate into realistic odds. If one is being honest the only real answer at the moment is 'who knows?'
If nobody has any idea, I guess you should lay the favourites, since for all anyone knows they're exactly as likely as everything else.
In reality you can make reasonable guesses, and for example my take isn't *wildly* different from SeanT's, and also SeanT's isn't that different from last time he posted, when he probably had a completely different opinion about what he wanted.
It is interesting looking at the predictions on here this morning and seeing how in % terms they tend to follow people's personal views on what they would like to see happen.
I have no idea what will happen and don't know how anyone can assess the likelihood of any outcome. I think the last few months have proven that there is no logic to Parliamentary votes or May's reactions to them.
I think the rule of thumb with Brexit from here is to imagine the worst outcome and go with that. On that basis, I expect No Deal because no-one has managed to find a way to prevent it.
But as I say that reflects your view of Brexit overall. You may be right (though of course I disagree with you) but it doesn't really translate into realistic odds. If one is being honest the only real answer at the moment is 'who knows?'
It is interesting looking at the predictions on here this morning and seeing how in % terms they tend to follow people's personal views on what they would like to see happen.
I have no idea what will happen and don't know how anyone can assess the likelihood of any outcome. I think the last few months have proven that there is no logic to Parliamentary votes or May's reactions to them.
I think the rule of thumb with Brexit from here is to imagine the worst outcome and go with that. On that basis, I expect No Deal because no-one has managed to find a way to prevent it.
But as I say that reflects your view of Brexit overall. You may be right (though of course I disagree with you) but it doesn't really translate into realistic odds. If one is being honest the only real answer at the moment is 'who knows?'
Well of course no one knows. Especially with brexit. But this is a betting website, and we are (not) paid to come up with odds, however difficult.
FWIW my guess did not reflect my preferred outcome, which right now is a short extension then Norway plus, with temporary CU membership to deal with the Irish problem
We would then stay in EFTA for a decade before pivoting further away. I think the Irish problem would swiftly recede over time as ulster realized it was getting a very good deal.
Sadly the chances of this are down there with Anglo-Chinese war.
Telegraph suggesting that an extension will cost at least £1bn per month.
What a bargain eh - will your MP sign up for your taxes to be spent on that ?
They are also saying this is in addition to the 39bill.
The story is a pack of lies . The EU have said there’s no more money to pay , the UK obligations remain the same even with an extension .
Actually I would suggest that whilst it may not be a direct quote from the EU (they would not be that daft) it is in fact accurate as a reflection of what would happen.
The £39 billion covers the amount the EU say we owe for programmes plus ongoing membership fees for the transition period. If the transition period is delayed then the start of the payment of the £39 billion is delayed and we continue to pay as a member of the EU - which would indeed cost somewhere around £1 billion a month.
This is not some additional cost being heaped on us by the EU but a cost we are ourselves putting on the country by postponing leaving.
The extension say its 3 months just replaces that part of the transition which has already been paid for . The DT is running this pack of lies to dupe people.
1. Extension plus referendum: 30% 2. No deal crash Brexit, March 29: 25% 3. TMay deal passes (maybe after short extension): 20% 4. Extension plus GE: 15% 5. Revoke: 5% 6. Black Swan/Anglo-Chinese war: 5%
What do others think?
0. Endless extensions: 20% 1. Extension plus referendum: 30% 2. No deal crash Brexit, March 29: 5% 3. TMay deal passes (maybe after short extension): 20% 4. Extension plus GE: 15% 5. Just go right out there and Revoke: 5% 6. Black Swan/Anglo-Manx war: 5%
For the 29th March deadline I'll go
Extension 90% No deal 10%
Once we've extended, we get into recursive extensions:
Further Extension 50% Deal 25% No deal 25%
Basically agree, but for every additional extension, subtract 5% from Deal and No Deal and add 10% to Further Extension.
PS I vaguely recall something about late projects - I think this is in a Nassim Taleb book - where it's taken x days so far, the best-guess ETA is another x days. So if Brexit isn't done this month, you guess end 2022, and then 2027, and then...
That's a general rule for anything where you have to make an estimate of duration in the absence of any information. How long will Hadrian's Wall last? It's been there since the third century so the best bet is until around the year 4,000. So applying the same rule Brexit will finally be cancelled in about 3 years time.
You read it here first.
By coincidence, three years time is when a general election is due.
The reason there is not more outrage is because few people expect very much of politicians, and few people are very strongly committed to EU membership.
Wollaston is just a ludicrous figure. Recall she actually campaigned for Leave and then had a Damascene conversion at the 11th hour and decided Leaving was literally insane even though she’d been campaigning for it for months.
She was so clearly a Cameroon cuckoo planted in the Leave nest, meant to explode Leave from within. It was mortifying. No doubt she did it because Cameron promised her some job after he’d won. Oh dear. That worked out well.
Wollaston summarizes everything wrong with our politics. She is as foolish and unprincipled as they come. And I readily confess brexit has revealed some utterly clueless morons on the Leave side as well.
What did we do to deserve this?
If Carole Codswallop is looking for people to investigate regarding misleading the public then Wollaston should be at the front of the queue ahead of Arron Banks. There are plenty of incompetent MPs on both sides of the Brexit debate but none as dodgy as Wollaston.
The mad Brexiters are still foaming as their utterly wretched project brings the country to the brink.
As far as I can tell, Ms Woollaston stared into the abyss of Brexit and then rather wisely stepped back.
That makes her smarter than every single Brexiter on this board including such luminaries as SeanT, Charles, and the great rcs1000 himself.
You actually seriously literally believe this? That Wollaston was a convinced Leaver, so much so she campaigned for it, then had a 180 degree conversion a minute before the referendum? This is the same Wollaston who is now such a zealous Remainer she has quit the Tory party to argue for a second referendum.
Believing her idiotic lies makes you stupider than the cheapest IKEA sofa cushion, let alone any sentient organism.
WRT Wollaston's "conversion" it must be frustrating to be an opportunist, and then to find out you're not even good at being an opportunist.
There are worrying signs that the world economy is headed for a major recession, especially Europe. Brexit ain’t helping.
I seriously wonder if the Eurozone will survive another slump without drastic reform - or the departure of various weaker states.
A significant slow down/recession in the EU will inevitably put horrendous pressure on the deficits of the weaker EU countries, especially Italy and France with significant risks that the Spanish and Portuguese debt going over 100% of GDP again.
How will Germany react to spiraling deficits in its currency? My guess is that more countries will get the Greek treatment (they are currently in surplus) and budgets will be savagely cut with serious social consequences.
Telegraph suggesting that an extension will cost at least £1bn per month.
What a bargain eh - will your MP sign up for your taxes to be spent on that ?
They are also saying this is in addition to the 39bill.
The story is a pack of lies . The EU have said there’s no more money to pay , the UK obligations remain the same even with an extension .
Actually I would suggest that whilst it may not be a direct quote from the EU (they would not be that daft) it is in fact accurate as a reflection of what would happen.
The £39 billion covers the amount the EU say we owe for programmes plus ongoing membership fees for the transition period. If the transition period is delayed then the start of the payment of the £39 billion is delayed and we continue to pay as a member of the EU - which would indeed cost somewhere around £1 billion a month.
This is not some additional cost being heaped on us by the EU but a cost we are ourselves putting on the country by postponing leaving.
The extension say its 3 months just replaces that part of the transition which has already been paid for . The DT is running this pack of lies to dupe people.
Um no. There is no extension agreed at present and so there is absolutely no knowledge of what that extension might entail. We can't even agree how long we would ask for let alone what the EU would accept or the provisos they would put on it. The basic facts of the Telegraph story are reasonable. If we ask for an extension the chances are it would cost us somewhere in the region of the £1 billion a month they are quoting.
It is interesting looking at the predictions on here this morning and seeing how in % terms they tend to follow people's personal views on what they would like to see happen.
I'd like to clarify that I am strongly opposed to an Anglo-Manx war
LOL. We should try and work out who would win that one.
The Manx probably have enough money tucked away in various boltholes to hire a topnotch mercenary army.
There are worrying signs that the world economy is headed for a major recession, especially Europe. Brexit ain’t helping.
I seriously wonder if the Eurozone will survive another slump without drastic reform - or the departure of various weaker states.
A significant slow down/recession in the EU will inevitably put horrendous pressure on the deficits of the weaker EU countries, especially Italy and France with significant risks that the Spanish and Portuguese debt going over 100% of GDP again.
How will Germany react to spiraling deficits in its currency? My guess is that more countries will get the Greek treatment (they are currently in surplus) and budgets will be savagely cut with serious social consequences.
The Remainers will be along to tell us why they want to shackle us to this corpse in 5, 4, 3....
There are worrying signs that the world economy is headed for a major recession, especially Europe. Brexit ain’t helping.
I seriously wonder if the Eurozone will survive another slump without drastic reform - or the departure of various weaker states.
A significant slow down/recession in the EU will inevitably put horrendous pressure on the deficits of the weaker EU countries, especially Italy and France with significant risks that the Spanish and Portuguese debt going over 100% of GDP again.
How will Germany react to spiraling deficits in its currency? My guess is that more countries will get the Greek treatment (they are currently in surplus) and budgets will be savagely cut with serious social consequences.
The Remainers will be along to tell us why they want to shackle us to this corpse in 5, 4, 3....
Maybe, maybe not but it is hardly up for debate that the timing of Brexit has not proven propitious. It makes the failure, hypocrisy and just basic stupidity of our political class even harder to forgive.
What do we want? An end to uncertainty! When do we want it? Well a year past last Christmas would have been handy.
Wollaston is just a ludicrous figure. Recall she actually campaigned for Leave and then had a Damascene conversion at the 11th hour and decided Leaving was literally insane even though she’d been campaigning for it for months.
She was so clearly a Cameroon cuckoo planted in the Leave nest, meant to explode Leave from within. It was mortifying. No doubt she did it because Cameron promised her some job after he’d won. Oh dear. That worked out well.
Wollaston summarizes everything wrong with our politics. She is as foolish and unprincipled as they come. And I readily confess brexit has revealed some utterly clueless morons on the Leave side as well.
What did we do to deserve this?
If Carole Codswallop is looking for people to investigate regarding misleading the public then Wollaston should be at the front of the queue ahead of Arron Banks. There are plenty of incompetent MPs on both sides of the Brexit debate but none as dodgy as Wollaston.
The mad Brexiters are still foaming as their utterly wretched project brings the country to the brink.
As far as I can tell, Ms Woollaston stared into the abyss of Brexit and then rather wisely stepped back.
That makes her smarter than every single Brexiter on this board including such luminaries as SeanT, Charles, and the great rcs1000 himself.
You actually seriously literally believe this? That Wollaston was a convinced Leaver, so much so she campaigned for it, then had a 180 degree conversion a minute before the referendum? This is the same Wollaston who is now such a zealous Remainer she has quit the Tory party to argue for a second referendum.
Believing her idiotic lies makes you stupider than the cheapest IKEA sofa cushion, let alone any sentient organism.
WRT Wollaston's "conversion" it must be frustrating to be an opportunist, and then to find out you're not even good at being an opportunist.
Quite. She’s like the guy in A Man For All Seasons who sold his soul for... Wales. Except in this case he didn’t even get Wales.
O/T but I think @DavidL described him as the most evil man he had ever met
He was genuinely terrifying. His eyes were black holes in his head. Just being in the same room as him was uncomfortable. It may be true that no man is an island etc but the world is a better place for his passing.
Is it possible to put on the news without having to be subjected to the odious Mark Francois spouting more crap .
Is Mark Francois being odious and spouts crap the one thing every PBer can agree on ?
Yes - although did I detect him not forcefully trashing the Deal As Amended on R4 on Saturday? It struck me as relatively grown-up for him.. at least leaving some wiggle-room if he had to reverse ferret to save Brexit.
On topic: There was an extremely revealing post by Nick Palmer on the previous thread. In response to my comment that the mural which Corbyn seemed to like was "absolutely, obviously and unambiguously anti-semitic", Nick replied:
Well, I'm of a similar age and background, and I've just had a look myself - like Recidivist, I can't say I saw it as you do. The most prominent things are the Illuminati symbol (which I only know from the card game about silly conspiracy theories) and the Monopoly board - the people sitting round it are presumably supposed to be old-fashioned wicked capitalists. It wouldn't occur to me that they were Jewish. I'm not denying that it's obvious to you (and apparently many others), just pointing out that different people see the same things differently.
I don't want to lay into Nick personally on this, but you really couldn't ask for a clearer explanation of how the mindset of the hard-left segues so easily into anti-semitic populism, similar to that of Nazi Germany, or of Charles Coughlin, Henry Ford and the America First Committee of 1930s America.
Is it possible to put on the news without having to be subjected to the odious Mark Francois spouting more crap .
Is Mark Francois being odious and spouts crap the one thing every PBer can agree on ?
Yes - although did I detect him not forcefully trashing the Deal As Amended on R4 on Saturday? It struck me as relatively grown-up for him.. at least leaving some wiggle-room if he had to reverse ferret to save Brexit.
The sad thing is that being odious and crap makes him very run of the mill in this Parliament. Nothing exceptional at all.
There are worrying signs that the world economy is headed for a major recession, especially Europe. Brexit ain’t helping.
I seriously wonder if the Eurozone will survive another slump without drastic reform - or the departure of various weaker states.
A significant slow down/recession in the EU will inevitably put horrendous pressure on the deficits of the weaker EU countries, especially Italy and France with significant risks that the Spanish and Portuguese debt going over 100% of GDP again.
How will Germany react to spiraling deficits in its currency? My guess is that more countries will get the Greek treatment (they are currently in surplus) and budgets will be savagely cut with serious social consequences.
The Remainers will be along to tell us why they want to shackle us to this corpse in 5, 4, 3....
Maybe, maybe not but it is hardly up for debate that the timing of Brexit has not proven propitious. It makes the failure, hypocrisy and just basic stupidity of our political class even harder to forgive.
What do we want? An end to uncertainty! When do we want it? Well a year past last Christmas would have been handy.
Fascinating article in (iirc) the FT today. The anointed successor to Merkel has responded to Macron’s impassioned call for ‘more europe’. The Germans are saying OK, you can have more Europe, but France must give up her UN SC seat and make it an EU seat, and the ludicrous 2nd parliament in Strasbourg must be closed down as a waste of money.
Basically they are challenging Macron to show he’s serious, and not just another myopic Frenchman pretending to be European just so long as it benefits France. My guess is Macron will turn out to be the latter.
Is it possible to put on the news without having to be subjected to the odious Mark Francois spouting more crap .
Is Mark Francois being odious and spouts crap the one thing every PBer can agree on ?
Yes - although did I detect him not forcefully trashing the Deal As Amended on R4 on Saturday? It struck me as relatively grown-up for him.. at least leaving some wiggle-room if he had to reverse ferret to save Brexit.
The sad thing is that being odious and crap makes him very run of the mill in this Parliament. Nothing exceptional at all.
What's odd is that he got a degree from a good university, but appears to be as thick as pigshit.
There are worrying signs that the world economy is headed for a major recession, especially Europe. Brexit ain’t helping.
I seriously wonder if the Eurozone will survive another slump without drastic reform - or the departure of various weaker states.
A significant slow down/recession in the EU will inevitably put horrendous pressure on the deficits of the weaker EU countries, especially Italy and France with significant risks that the Spanish and Portuguese debt going over 100% of GDP again.
How will Germany react to spiraling deficits in its currency? My guess is that more countries will get the Greek treatment (they are currently in surplus) and budgets will be savagely cut with serious social consequences.
The Remainers will be along to tell us why they want to shackle us to this corpse in 5, 4, 3....
Maybe, maybe not but it is hardly up for debate that the timing of Brexit has not proven propitious. It makes the failure, hypocrisy and just basic stupidity of our political class even harder to forgive.
What do we want? An end to uncertainty! When do we want it? Well a year past last Christmas would have been handy.
Fascinating article in (iirc) the FT today. The anointed successor to Merkel has responded to Macron’s impassioned call for ‘more europe’. The Germans are saying OK, you can have more Europe, but France must give up her UN SC seat and make it an EU seat, and the ludicrous 2nd parliament in Strasbourg must be closed down as a waste of money.
Basically they are challenging Macron to show he’s serious, and not just another myopic Frenchman pretending to be European just so long as it benefits France. My guess is Macron will turn out to be the latter.
I trust that you are not looking for odds on that one!
FFS losing your flagship policy by 200 votes should be a resigning matter!
Indeed.
I think we have reached the very end of what May can achieve in her time in office. Time to go now.
Has she achieved anything in her time in office (other than blowing a majority) ?
TBF: * She's exposed the bullshitters like Boris and Davis as bullshitters. I mean, they hanged themselves, but she gave them the rope * She's negotiated a deal which, if you buy the basic premise - that you have to control EU immigration, but then want to minimize the related economic damage - is as good as could be expected, maybe better * She hasn't joined any stupid wars that made things worse than if the British had stayed at home playing Microsoft Flight Simulator, which may sound like a low bar but neither Blair nor Cameron managed to clear it
When Nothing Has Changed, she gets out the lectern, trails it for hours in advance, and then says nothing. She's not doing that, ergo something must have changed.
Oh, who am I kidding. I have no idea what's happening in this shitshow right now and neither does anyone else.
Is it possible to put on the news without having to be subjected to the odious Mark Francois spouting more crap .
Is Mark Francois being odious and spouts crap the one thing every PBer can agree on ?
Yes - although did I detect him not forcefully trashing the Deal As Amended on R4 on Saturday? It struck me as relatively grown-up for him.. at least leaving some wiggle-room if he had to reverse ferret to save Brexit.
The sad thing is that being odious and crap makes him very run of the mill in this Parliament. Nothing exceptional at all.
What's odd is that he got a degree from a good university, but appears to be as thick as pigshit.
And Wollaston is a doctor (as if Fox, of course). Why do they all behave as ignorant morons? Is it what they think we want to hear?
FFS losing your flagship policy by 200 votes should be a resigning matter!
Indeed.
I think we have reached the very end of what May can achieve in her time in office. Time to go now.
Has she achieved anything in her time in office (other than blowing a majority) ?
TBF: * She's exposed the bullshitters like Boris and Davis as bullshitters. I mean, they hanged themselves, but she gave them the rope * She's negotiated a deal which, if you buy the basic premise - that you have to control EU immigration, but then want to minimize the related economic damage - is as good as could be expected, maybe better * She hasn't joined any stupid wars that made things worse than if the British had stayed at home playing Microsoft Flight Simulator, which may sound like a low bar but neither Blair nor Cameron managed to clear it
If we accept that appointing Boris and Davis to the Cabinet was part of a deliberate strategy to expose their incompetence, why is such recklessness to May's credit?
May gone by the end of the week . Resigns and asks for an extension to let a new leader to take over .
To be honest I think that would be the honourable thing to do. She has failed utterly.
It’s probably easier for Tory MPs to support an extension under the guise that a new leader would need time to reset the negotiations . It’s likely a new PM would be a hard Brexiter which would please the ERG nutjobs . And that PM can then go chasing unicorns !
The fact Boris, Farage and Corbyn are against it is an encouraging sign that it's a good deal.
That said, it is strange and disturbing to find myself on the same side as Michael Gove.
ydoethur, It is as crap as it ever was and is going down. May is a nasty bit of work and time some of the Tory jellies got a backbone and showed her the door. This clearly shows what years of promoting your inbred chums does.
May has faults but I don't think even her enemies call her 'a nasty bit of work', cybernat in overdrive there
Take those blue specs off, she has the country on the brink of disaster all to further her own ends, despicable woman is the most polite thing I could post.
May has negotiated the only Deal available from the EU but not course for you destruction of the Union is the be all and end all
Don't be silly, there were always plenty of other deals available from the EU (e.g see Nick Palmer's post upthread on what Corbyn could do) but myopic May does not have the wit or the vision to consider them. She set out her own red lines without serious debate or consultation then arbitarily ditched some whilst treating others as sacrosanct.
That is why she will go down as one of the poorest PMs ever.
Do these plentiful 'other deals' available from the EU include the backstop and the non-negotiable Withdrawal Agreement? And when exactly could they have been agreed, given that the EU has stubbornly refused to negotiate the final status until after we leave?
On topic: There was an extremely revealing post by Nick Palmer on the previous thread. In response to my comment that the mural which Corbyn seemed to like was "absolutely, obviously and unambiguously anti-semitic", Nick replied:
Well, I'm of a similar age and background, and I've just had a look myself - like Recidivist, I can't say I saw it as you do. The most prominent things are the Illuminati symbol (which I only know from the card game about silly conspiracy theories) and the Monopoly board - the people sitting round it are presumably supposed to be old-fashioned wicked capitalists. It wouldn't occur to me that they were Jewish. I'm not denying that it's obvious to you (and apparently many others), just pointing out that different people see the same things differently.
I don't want to lay into Nick personally on this, but you really couldn't ask for a clearer explanation of how the mindset of the hard-left segues so easily into anti-semitic populism, similar to that of Nazi Germany, or of Charles Coughlin, Henry Ford and the America First Committee of 1930s America.
That is quite shocking. Has NPXMP seriously never seen ANY anti Semitic propaganda from the nazi era? Not any? Really? Because it is virtually identical to the Corbyn mural, right down to the gloating expressions and big noses.
Here are a couple of cartoons from Goebbels’ Der Sturmer
It is unquestionably a national humiliation. We have shown ourselves to be incompetent fantasists completely incapable of understanding how the world works and our place in it. But, of course, this is only the start. I hope I am around to see the mendacious fraudsters who foisted this on us held to account for their actions.
Hold on, that stat doesn't pass the smell test at all. 1% of UK tax revenue linked to 10% of banking assets? Are we sure it isn't 1% of banking sector tax revenue, which makes a lot more sense.
* She hasn't joined any stupid wars that made things worse than if the British had stayed at home playing Microsoft Flight Simulator, which may sound like a low bar but neither Blair nor Cameron managed to clear it
She's had RAF Typhoons (operating cost: 80,000 quid/hour) using Paveway IVs (acquisition cost: 70,000 quid each) to bomb Toyota Hi-Luxes in Iraq and Syria. Total bill for Op Shader so far: 1bn. Which is all fucking stupid.
May gone by the end of the week . Resigns and asks for an extension to let a new leader to take over .
To be honest I think that would be the honourable thing to do. She has failed utterly.
It’s probably easier for Tory MPs to support an extension under the guise that a new leader would need time to reset the negotiations . It’s likely a new PM would be a hard Brexiter which would please the ERG nutjobs . And that PM can then go chasing unicorns !
The next PM will have to agree to Brexit Ref 2: vote harder which may well see the end of Brexit for this generation. I suspect that they will be far more focused on keeping the broken remnants of the Tory party together so that they can form a credible opposition to worry too much about unicorns. It is not just May that is going to lose her job over this.
On topic: There was an extremely revealing post by Nick Palmer on the previous thread. In response to my comment that the mural which Corbyn seemed to like was "absolutely, obviously and unambiguously anti-semitic", Nick replied:
Well, I'm of a similar age and background, and I've just had a look myself - like Recidivist, I can't say I saw it as you do. The most prominent things are the Illuminati symbol (which I only know from the card game about silly conspiracy theories) and the Monopoly board - the people sitting round it are presumably supposed to be old-fashioned wicked capitalists. It wouldn't occur to me that they were Jewish. I'm not denying that it's obvious to you (and apparently many others), just pointing out that different people see the same things differently.
I don't want to lay into Nick personally on this, but you really couldn't ask for a clearer explanation of how the mindset of the hard-left segues so easily into anti-semitic populism, similar to that of Nazi Germany, or of Charles Coughlin, Henry Ford and the America First Committee of 1930s America.
Corbyn is supposed to have fought racism (in all its forms) all his life. You would have thought that in all those decades he would have become something of an expert on racism and its associated forms, memes, symbols, metaphors etc etc.
Hold on, that stat doesn't pass the smell test at all. 1% of UK tax revenue linked to 10% of banking assets? Are we sure it isn't 1% of banking sector tax revenue, which makes a lot more sense.
Is it possible to put on the news without having to be subjected to the odious Mark Francois spouting more crap .
Is Mark Francois being odious and spouts crap the one thing every PBer can agree on ?
Yes - although did I detect him not forcefully trashing the Deal As Amended on R4 on Saturday? It struck me as relatively grown-up for him.. at least leaving some wiggle-room if he had to reverse ferret to save Brexit.
The sad thing is that being odious and crap makes him very run of the mill in this Parliament. Nothing exceptional at all.
What's odd is that he got a degree from a good university, but appears to be as thick as pigshit.
And Wollaston is a doctor (as if Fox, of course). Why do they all behave as ignorant morons? Is it what they think we want to hear?
Mark Francis makes Kerry Smith sound like an intellectual.
On topic: There was an extremely revealing post by Nick Palmer on the previous thread. In response to my comment that the mural which Corbyn seemed to like was "absolutely, obviously and unambiguously anti-semitic", Nick replied:
Well, I'm of a similar age and background, and I've just had a look myself - like Recidivist, I can't say I saw it as you do. The most prominent things are the Illuminati symbol (which I only know from the card game about silly conspiracy theories) and the Monopoly board - the people sitting round it are presumably supposed to be old-fashioned wicked capitalists. It wouldn't occur to me that they were Jewish. I'm not denying that it's obvious to you (and apparently many others), just pointing out that different people see the same things differently.
I don't want to lay into Nick personally on this, but you really couldn't ask for a clearer explanation of how the mindset of the hard-left segues so easily into anti-semitic populism, similar to that of Nazi Germany, or of Charles Coughlin, Henry Ford and the America First Committee of 1930s America.
That is quite shocking. Has NPXMP seriously never seen ANY anti Semitic propaganda from the nazi era? Not any? Really? Because it is virtually identical to the Corbyn mural, right down to the gloating expressions and big noses.
Here are a couple of cartoons from Goebbels’ Der Sturmer
I've not looked but isn't that kind of the point? To the 99 per cent of the British public who are not familiar with Nazi-era propaganda, the mural does not look antisemitic.
The very very strange thing in all this, is that despite the clown show of a government and the dismal panto of our political theatre, Britain’s economy is doing OK, the deficit is coming down, we are not at war, our environmental record is good, crime remains relatively low (despite these horrible stabbings), our universities thrive, we have the best thriller writers, and otters now live in every county in England.
Britain is still an enviably stable, sensible, prosperous nation - blessed with beautiful countryside and magnificent culture.
Yes Brexit is a shower of shyte. But Britain is not Brexit.
The very very strange thing in all this, is that despite the clown show of a government and the dismal panto of our political theatre, Britain’s economy is doing OK, the deficit is coming down, we are not at war, our environmental record is good, crime remains relatively low (despite these horrible stabbings), our universities thrive, we have the best thriller writers, and otters now live in every county in England.
Britain is still an enviably stable, sensible, prosperous nation - blessed with beautiful countryside and magnificent culture.
Yes Brexit is a shower of shyte. But Britain is not Brexit.
That is why I am green on our Chancellor for next PM. Of course, first there has to be a vacancy and then Hammond needs to stand.
Comments
But those 200,000+ financial job losses which you Remainers assured us would have happened by now haven't happened.
So what does that make the people who claimed those job losses were going to happen ?
What a bargain eh - will your MP sign up for your taxes to be spent on that ?
1. Extension plus referendum: 30%
2. No deal crash Brexit, March 29: 5%
3. TMay deal passes (maybe after short extension): 20%
4. Extension plus GE: 15%
5. Just go right out there and Revoke: 5%
6. Black Swan/Anglo-Manx war: 5%
We see it here - as soon as someone's name is mentioned, from whatever side, in go the verbal Doc Martens amid a general notion of "incompetence" and, if we're lucky, a wistful nostalgic notion of how the generation which brought us Suez would have done better.
Do we get the politicians we deserve? I'm not sure - do we get the political system we deserve? Maybe. I'm of the view we need a root-and-branch review and a national debate about how our politics functions from the role of parties to the structures to the electoral system. If we are looking, post-EU, to design a country and society for the 21st Century, then we need the political structures, forms and leadership to mirror and empower that.
Extension 90%
No deal 10%
Once we've extended, we get into recursive extensions:
Further Extension 50%
Deal 25%
No deal 25%
Believing her idiotic lies makes you stupider than the cheapest IKEA sofa cushion, let alone any sentient organism.
Yes.
I don’t know how I would vote in a 2nd referendum.
I have no idea what will happen and don't know how anyone can assess the likelihood of any outcome. I think the last few months have proven that there is no logic to Parliamentary votes or May's reactions to them.
It will likely work, but MPs are opening Pandora's box.
It was a genius move by the BBC to get these two tossers together. They should have their own show.
PS I vaguely recall something about late projects - I think this is in a Nassim Taleb book - where it's taken x days so far, the best-guess ETA is another x days. So if Brexit isn't done this month, you guess end 2022, and then 2027, and then...
The £39 billion covers the amount the EU say we owe for programmes plus ongoing membership fees for the transition period. If the transition period is delayed then the start of the payment of the £39 billion is delayed and we continue to pay as a member of the EU - which would indeed cost somewhere around £1 billion a month.
This is not some additional cost being heaped on us by the EU but a cost we are ourselves putting on the country by postponing leaving.
Though the poll is roughly 50/50; not that polls are a good way of solving complex problems in the first place. #Brexit.
You read it here first.
In reality you can make reasonable guesses, and for example my take isn't *wildly* different from SeanT's, and also SeanT's isn't that different from last time he posted, when he probably had a completely different opinion about what he wanted.
Well of course no one knows. Especially with brexit. But this is a betting website, and we are (not) paid to come up with odds, however difficult.
FWIW my guess did not reflect my preferred outcome, which right now is a short extension then Norway plus, with temporary CU membership to deal with the Irish problem
We would then stay in EFTA for a decade before pivoting further away. I think the Irish problem would swiftly recede over time as ulster realized it was getting a very good deal.
Sadly the chances of this are down there with Anglo-Chinese war.
I seriously wonder if the Eurozone will survive another slump without drastic reform - or the departure of various weaker states.
https://twitter.com/nickboles/status/1105056734052315137?s=21
https://twitter.com/steven_swinford/status/1105058412293955584?s=21
Do you feel lucky, punk?
How will Germany react to spiraling deficits in its currency? My guess is that more countries will get the Greek treatment (they are currently in surplus) and budgets will be savagely cut with serious social consequences.
I think we have reached the very end of what May can achieve in her time in office. Time to go now.
O/T but I think @DavidL described him as the most evil man he had ever met
Has she achieved anything in her time in office (other than blowing a majority) ?
What do we want? An end to uncertainty! When do we want it? Well a year past last Christmas would have been handy.
Well, I'm of a similar age and background, and I've just had a look myself - like Recidivist, I can't say I saw it as you do. The most prominent things are the Illuminati symbol (which I only know from the card game about silly conspiracy theories) and the Monopoly board - the people sitting round it are presumably supposed to be old-fashioned wicked capitalists. It wouldn't occur to me that they were Jewish. I'm not denying that it's obvious to you (and apparently many others), just pointing out that different people see the same things differently.
I don't want to lay into Nick personally on this, but you really couldn't ask for a clearer explanation of how the mindset of the hard-left segues so easily into anti-semitic populism, similar to that of Nazi Germany, or of Charles Coughlin, Henry Ford and the America First Committee of 1930s America.
Basically they are challenging Macron to show he’s serious, and not just another myopic Frenchman pretending to be European just so long as it benefits France. My guess is Macron will turn out to be the latter.
TBF:
* She's exposed the bullshitters like Boris and Davis as bullshitters. I mean, they hanged themselves, but she gave them the rope
* She's negotiated a deal which, if you buy the basic premise - that you have to control EU immigration, but then want to minimize the related economic damage - is as good as could be expected, maybe better
* She hasn't joined any stupid wars that made things worse than if the British had stayed at home playing Microsoft Flight Simulator, which may sound like a low bar but neither Blair nor Cameron managed to clear it
When Nothing Has Changed, she gets out the lectern, trails it for hours in advance, and then says nothing. She's not doing that, ergo something must have changed.
Oh, who am I kidding. I have no idea what's happening in this shitshow right now and neither does anyone else.
The harder the Brexit, the quicker we Rejoin.
No Deal ASAP please.
Here are a couple of cartoons from Goebbels’ Der Sturmer
https://goo.gl/images/f9XXgX
https://goo.gl/images/jw884b
Here is the mural
https://goo.gl/images/g7KCMi
Ref 2 TMDeal vs Remain: 20%
I accepted that a while ago.
Makes life easier.
Console yourself with the fact of just how bad it would have been if we didn’t hold all the cards.
But no.
Apparently not.
It is the law.
PS - It doesn’t get better if we Remain, plenty of your fellow Leavers have said they’d vote for fascists to enact Brexit.
Britain is still an enviably stable, sensible, prosperous nation - blessed with beautiful countryside and magnificent culture.
Yes Brexit is a shower of shyte. But Britain is not Brexit.