Any country can break a Treaty . But of course if the UK ditched the backstop before alternative arrangements are ready then the EU won’t finalize a trade deal . And the UKs reputation will be trashed even more than it already is after the last two years .
It sounds like the UK saying it thinks it can do something and the EU agreeing not to contradict in public. Basically, it changes absolutely nothing, but given that was always going to be the case it could be enough to allow the ERG/DUP to blink.
I know May is pretty crap at PR politics but I don’t understand why she hasn’t made three things crystal clear on the Irish border situation:
- that the NI is part of the UK and the exact same rules as the mainland MUST apply. - the UK respects in full the GFA. - the UK will not build any physical border or put in place any extra restrictions to cross border trade.
It should be easy for her to make the physical border an EU problem not a UK one. It would be an easy shift of the problem if she made one icy, emphatic speech daring the EU to build a border.
What’s the difficulty with that? From a neutral standpoint it seems an obvious chess move.
Regulatory and customs divergence between Northern Ireland and Ireland are a restriction on cross-border trade, so your conditions mean we would stay in the single market and customs union.
Who says so? It’s the EU who are imposing the divergence. We could waive any extra tariffs etc and say our side of the border will continue to operate as is. Surely is is our sovereign choice as to how we police our border?
If the EU want to do things differently on their side then that’s up to them. They can order Ireland to do as they say.
We're the ones who want the divergence, because we're the ones that want to make our own laws.
That means goods manufactured in the UK, which are legal for sale here but not legal for sale in the common market, would need to be checked at the border. Or, at the very elast, some point before the border (which is a MaxFac sort of idea).
Yes, so in very basic terms, we would be sending lorries into Ireland and the Ireland would be stopping them, not us. In return, we can remain happy for Ireland’s lorries to enter our territory without checks. So it’s for them to build a border, not us.
That's just a big "f*** you" to the Irish, then, isn't it. "I'm going to create this problem, but it's up to you to do anything about it".
we can remain happy for Ireland’s lorries to enter our territory without checks.
Take Back Control of our Borders
NO, NOT THAT ONE !!!!
It's not like anything bad has ever been smuggled across the border from the Republic, right?
That’s a poor comment. Are you suggesting that if things remain as they are Ireland will suddenly start smuggling guns and bombs over just because we Brexited?
Any country can break a Treaty . But of course if the UK ditched the backstop before alternative arrangements are ready then the EU won’t finalize a trade deal . And the UKs reputation will be trashed even more than it already is after the last two years .
Seems reasonable if that's confirmed. The quid pro quo of us having the right to cancel the backstop should always have been the cancellation of any trade deals. At least then if we stay in the backstop its our choice because we want trade, not because a prior generation of politicians insisted upon it.
IF the EU have agreed something, however trivial, to enable May to sell this, I would think they will be really pissed if the Commons reject it again.
Surely the ERG will reject it. They are impossible to please.
They know that Brexit will come to be seen as a huge and damaging misjudgement, and hope to escape blame for its consequences by refusing to back any actual Brexit that could be put in front of them.
I know May is pretty crap at PR politics but I don’t understand why she hasn’t made three things crystal clear on the Irish border situation:
- that the NI is part of the UK and the exact same rules as the mainland MUST apply. - the UK respects in full the GFA. - the UK will not build any physical border or put in place any extra restrictions to cross border trade.
It should be easy for her to make the physical border an EU problem not a UK one. It would be an easy shift of the problem if she made one icy, emphatic speech daring the EU to build a border.
What’s the difficulty with that? From a neutral standpoint it seems an obvious chess move.
Regulatory and customs divergence between Northern Ireland and Ireland are a restriction on cross-border trade, so your conditions mean we would stay in the single market and customs union.
Who says so? It’s the EU who are imposing the divergence. We could waive any extra tariffs etc and say our side of the border will continue to operate as is. Surely is is our sovereign choice as to how we police our border?
If the EU want to do things differently on their side then that’s up to them. They can order Ireland to do as they say.
We're the ones who want the divergence, because we're the ones that want to make our own laws.
That means goods manufactured in the UK, which are legal for sale here but not legal for sale in the common market, would need to be checked at the border. Or, at the very elast, some point before the border (which is a MaxFac sort of idea).
Yes, so in very basic terms, we would be sending lorries into Ireland and the Ireland would be stopping them, not us. In return, we can remain happy for Ireland’s lorries to enter our territory without checks. So it’s for them to build a border, not us.
I've never understood why our negotiators (?) didn't make this point. I seem to recall even Leo Vodka saying something similar
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."
Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. "They've a temper, some of them—particularly verbs, they're the proudest—adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs—however, I can manage the whole lot! Impenetrability! That's what I say!"
I know May is pretty crap at PR politics but I don’t understand why she hasn’t made three things crystal clear on the Irish border situation:
- that the NI is part of the UK and the exact same rules as the mainland MUST apply. - the UK respects in full the GFA. - the UK will not build any physical border or put in place any extra restrictions to cross border trade.
It should be easy for her to make the physical border an EU problem not a UK one. It would be an easy shift of the problem if she made one icy, emphatic speech daring the EU to build a border.
What’s the difficulty with that? From a neutral standpoint it seems an obvious chess move.
Regulatory and customs divergence between Northern Ireland and Ireland are a restriction on cross-border trade, so your conditions mean we would stay in the single market and customs union.
Who says so? It’s the EU who are imposing the divergence. We could waive any extra tariffs etc and say our side of the border will continue to operate as is. Surely is is our sovereign choice as to how we police our border?
If the EU want to do things differently on their side then that’s up to them. They can order Ireland to do as they say.
We're the ones who want the divergence, because we're the ones that want to make our own laws.
That means goods manufactured in the UK, which are legal for sale here but not legal for sale in the common market, would need to be checked at the border. Or, at the very elast, some point before the border (which is a MaxFac sort of idea).
Yes, so in very basic terms, we would be sending lorries into Ireland and the Ireland would be stopping them, not us. In return, we can remain happy for Ireland’s lorries to enter our territory without checks. So it’s for them to build a border, not us.
That's just a big "f*** you" to the Irish, then, isn't it. "I'm going to create this problem, but it's up to you to do anything about it".
Well no?! It’s no fuck you at all. The Irish don’t want a wall and we’d be telling them we have no intention of building one. So it’d be up to the EU to build it, and I can guarantee that they never ever would.
The WA was "part 1" and now we're getting parts 2 AND 3:
"(2) new legal assurances on arbitration/best endeavours added to withdrawal agreement/lodged with UN And addition to the political declaration (3) unilateral/unopposed statement"
As enough brexiteers such as David Davis indicated he wants to support the deal and explained privately to May what he needs to save face, what you describe here is all about 120 of them need. This 120 will be joined by 30+ Labour MPs tomorrow as May’s withdraw agreement looks set to pass comfortably.
If bets on leaving specified end of March (I know at least one poster up to their balls in such a bet) they are still on in my opinion as needing a few extra weeks to pass the legal formalities might not be needed, the financial side of things dont kick in till 18th April so finance legislation cant hold up brexit partying at end of th month.
Anyone excited by leaving should Start thinking about how to celebrate tomark the occasion.
Celebrating . What the end of a 45 year relationship and the end of freedom of movement for many who will no longer have that chance . I’ll be staying well away from the coverage . Seeing the flag lowered and removed from the EU Parliament will be very sad. Will any Leavers at that point have a tinge of regret .
If they haven't already broken down after hearing from Roger and SO about how rich retirees are going to find it a bit harder to relocate to Spain, they must have hearts of stone
Why will it prevent rich retirees? It will prevent anyone who lacks a pension income of €30,000 a year or €500,000 to buy a property. And it will prevent all the young people who currently go down and work for the cost of an air fare. But the rich will be fine. Brexit won’t affect them.
Sorta like how the rich haven't been affected by migration the other way pulling down wages at the lower end, increasing competition for the housing supply (actually - as home owners, they get richer off that) or competition for public health services, then.
But hey, 21 year old Brit who will never get a mortgage to buy a shoebox in the UK. Remainers want you to know they will always be behind your right to become a waiter in Spain.
So when do you expect rents and homes to get cheaper after we’ve left? Why do you think most young people voted Remain?
The chair of the the BSE campaign, Stuart Rose, is on record as stating he believed wages would rise for low skilled workers as a direct result of Brexit.
BSE? More like foot in mouth...
Project Fear from the Treasury explicitly said houses would get 20% cheaper.
Looks like May’s off to Strasbourg to give the ERG a fig leaf for caving. Could we finally see a deal done and signed off?
Anything is possible, but if a fig leaf was likely to achieve that we'd have had it by now. Ok this is last minute, but previous instances were also pretty last minute and delayed past the point we were told were last minute.
A lot of them are desperate for a way out. There are 20 or so irreconcilables, but the rest should be fine. We’ll leave and then the real fun begins.
The persistent centrist delusion that everyone really wants to vote the same way they do, but are being prevented from doing so by bizarre accidental circumstances. Voters all want a centrist party... no, not the Lib Dems, a different centrist party. And they all want to Remain, if only the Russiana hadn't used their mind control rays on them. And MPs all desperately want the deal, if only they hadn't myopically positioned themselves so that they can't possibly vote for it. We just need a new centrist party, a new referendum, a new fig leaf, and everything will be okay again!
I know May is pretty crap at PR politics but I don’t understand why she hasn’t made three things crystal clear on the Irish border situation:
- that the NI is part of the UK and the exact same rules as the mainland MUST apply. - the UK respects in full the GFA. - the UK will not build any physical border or put in place any extra restrictions to cross border trade.
It should be easy for her to make the physical border an EU problem not a UK one. It would be an easy shift of the problem if she made one icy, emphatic speech daring the EU to build a border.
What’s the difficulty with that? From a neutral standpoint it seems an obvious chess move.
Regulatory and customs divergence between Northern Ireland and Ireland are a restriction on cross-border trade, so your conditions mean we would stay in the single market and customs union.
Who says so? It’s the EU who are imposing the divergence. We could waive any extra tariffs etc and say our side of the border will continue to operate as is. Surely is is our sovereign choice as to how we police our border?
If the EU want to do things differently on their side then that’s up to them. They can order Ireland to do as they say.
We're the ones who want the divergence, because we're the ones that want to make our own laws.
That means goods manufactured in the UK, which are legal for sale here but not legal for sale in the common market, would need to be checked at the border. Or, at the very elast, some point before the border (which is a MaxFac sort of idea).
Yes, so in very basic terms, we would be sending lorries into Ireland and the Ireland would be stopping them, not us. In return, we can remain happy for Ireland’s lorries to enter our territory without checks. So it’s for them to build a border, not us.
That's just a big "f*** you" to the Irish, then, isn't it. "I'm going to create this problem, but it's up to you to do anything about it".
Well no?! It’s no fuck you at all. The Irish don’t want a wall and we’d be telling them we have no intention of building one. So it’d be up to the EU to build it, and I can guarantee that they never ever would.
If they did, it would cause a much bigger problem on our side than on theirs...
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."
Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. "They've a temper, some of them—particularly verbs, they're the proudest—adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs—however, I can manage the whole lot! Impenetrability! That's what I say!"
“Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?"
"That depends a good deal on where you want to get to," said the Cat.
"I don’t much care where–" said Alice.
"Then it doesn’t matter which way you go," said the Cat.
"–so long as I get SOMEWHERE," Alice added as an explanation.
"Oh, you’re sure to do that," said the Cat, "if you only walk long enough."
Alice felt that this could not be denied, so she tried another question. "What sort of people live about here?"
"In THAT direction," the Cat said, waving its right paw round, "lives a Hatter: and in THAT direction," waving the other paw, "lives a March Hare. Visit either you like: they’re both mad."
"But I don’t want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can’t help that,’ said the Cat: "we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad."
"How do you know I’m mad?" said Alice.
"You must be,’ said the Cat, "or you wouldn’t have come here."
Alice didn’t think that proved it at all; however, she went on: "And how do you know that you're mad?"
"To begin with," said the Cat, "a dog's not mad. You grant that?"
"I suppose so", said Alice.
"Well then," the Cat went on, "you see a dog growls when it's angry, and wags it's tail when it's pleased. Now I growl when I'm pleased, and wag my tail when I'm angry. Therefore I'm mad.”
we can remain happy for Ireland’s lorries to enter our territory without checks.
Take Back Control of our Borders
NO, NOT THAT ONE !!!!
It's not like anything bad has ever been smuggled across the border from the Republic, right?
That’s a poor comment. Are you suggesting that if things remain as they are Ireland will suddenly start smuggling guns and bombs over just because we Brexited?
Scott has spent the past two years trying to conflate having control over who gets to work in the UK with physical barriers at the border.
Looks like May’s off to Strasbourg to give the ERG a fig leaf for caving. Could we finally see a deal done and signed off?
Anything is possible, but if a fig leaf was likely to achieve that we'd have had it by now. Ok this is last minute, but previous instances were also pretty last minute and delayed past the point we were told were last minute.
A lot of them are desperate for a way out. There are 20 or so irreconcilables, but the rest should be fine. We’ll leave and then the real fun begins.
The persistent centrist delusion that everyone really wants to vote the same way they do, but are being prevented from doing so by bizarre accidental circumstances. Voters all want a centrist party... no, not the Lib Dems, a different centrist party. And they all want to Remain, if only the Russiana hadn't used their mind control rays on them. And MPs all desperately want the deal, if only they hadn't myopically positioned themselves so that they can't possibly vote for it. We just need a new centrist party, a new referendum, a new fig leaf, and everything will be okay again!
The public will just see the words unilateral in terms of the UK statement , and lodged with the UN .
If the ERG refuse to back it then the rest of the party will round on them and at that point May can use the nuclear option by u turning on the second EU vote .
we can remain happy for Ireland’s lorries to enter our territory without checks.
Take Back Control of our Borders
NO, NOT THAT ONE !!!!
It's not like anything bad has ever been smuggled across the border from the Republic, right?
That’s a poor comment. Are you suggesting that if things remain as they are Ireland will suddenly start smuggling guns and bombs over just because we Brexited?
Scott has spent the past two years trying to conflate having control over who gets to work in the UK with physical barriers at the border.
And moaning when it looks like Brexit won’t mean hard borders despite professing to not wanting them, and supporting the current no border set up.
I know May is pretty crap at PR politics but I don’t understand why she hasn’t made three things crystal clear on the Irish border situation:
- that the NI is part of the UK and the exact same rules as the mainland MUST apply. - the UK respects in full the GFA. - the UK will not build any physical border or put in place any extra restrictions to cross border trade.
It should be easy for her to make the physical border an EU problem not a UK one. It would be an easy shift of the problem if she made one icy, emphatic speech daring the EU to build a border.
What’s the difficulty with that? From a neutral standpoint it seems an obvious chess move.
Regulatory and customs divergence between Northern Ireland and Ireland are a restriction on cross-border trade, so your conditions mean we would stay in the single market and customs union.
Who says so? It’s the EU who are imposing the divergence. We could waive any extra tariffs etc and say our side of the border will continue to operate as is. Surely is is our sovereign choice as to how we police our border?
If the EU want to do things differently on their side then that’s up to them. They can order Ireland to do as they say.
We're the ones who want the divergence, because we're the ones that want to make our own laws.
That means goods manufactured in the UK, which are legal for sale here but not legal for sale in the common market, would need to be checked at the border. Or, at the very elast, some point before the border (which is a MaxFac sort of idea).
Yes, so in very basic terms, we would be sending lorries into Ireland and the Ireland would be stopping them, not us. In return, we can remain happy for Ireland’s lorries to enter our territory without checks. So it’s for them to build a border, not us.
That's just a big "f*** you" to the Irish, then, isn't it. "I'm going to create this problem, but it's up to you to do anything about it".
Well no?! It’s no fuck you at all. The Irish don’t want a wall and we’d be telling them we have no intention of building one. So it’d be up to the EU to build it, and I can guarantee that they never ever would.
If they did, it would cause a much bigger problem on our side than on theirs...
They told us there would be no hard border - were they lying?
Looks like May’s off to Strasbourg to give the ERG a fig leaf for caving. Could we finally see a deal done and signed off?
Anything is possible, but if a fig leaf was likely to achieve that we'd have had it by now. Ok this is last minute, but previous instances were also pretty last minute and delayed past the point we were told were last minute.
A lot of them are desperate for a way out. There are 20 or so irreconcilables, but the rest should be fine. We’ll leave and then the real fun begins.
The persistent centrist delusion that everyone really wants to vote the same way they do, but are being prevented from doing so by bizarre accidental circumstances. Voters all want a centrist party... no, not the Lib Dems, a different centrist party. And they all want to Remain, if only the Russiana hadn't used their mind control rays on them. And MPs all desperately want the deal, if only they hadn't myopically positioned themselves so that they can't possibly vote for it. We just need a new centrist party, a new referendum, a new fig leaf, and everything will be okay again!
Any country can break a Treaty . But of course if the UK ditched the backstop before alternative arrangements are ready then the EU won’t finalize a trade deal . And the UKs reputation will be trashed even more than it already is after the last two years .
Seems reasonable if that's confirmed. The quid pro quo of us having the right to cancel the backstop should always have been the cancellation of any trade deals. At least then if we stay in the backstop its our choice because we want trade, not because a prior generation of politicians insisted upon it.
19:26 An emergency meeting of Irish cabinet ministers has been called for 7pm, a government source has confirmed to the Press Association.
The Irish premier Leo Varadkar, who was due to begin his journey to America for St Patrick’s Day, returned from Dublin airport and is currently in government buildings for the cabinet briefing.
St. Patrick's Day isn't until Sunday? What on Earth does he do in USA all those days?
I'm just baffled by why it has become a tradition for Irish politicians to feck off and leave Ireland for St Patrick's Day.
They told us there would be no hard border - were they lying?
No they didn't. They said checks would be unavoidable if we leave the customs union and single market for goods, but they will not do any deal with us that doesn't address this. How long can we hold out without an FTA with our neighbours?
I know May is pretty crap at PR politics but I don’t understand why she hasn’t made three things crystal clear on the Irish border situation:
- that the NI is part of the UK and the exact same rules as the mainland MUST apply. - the UK respects in full the GFA. - the UK will not build any physical border or put in place any extra restrictions to cross border trade.
It should be easy for her to make the physical border an EU problem not a UK one. It would be an easy shift of the problem if she made one icy, emphatic speech daring the EU to build a border.
What’s the difficulty with that? From a neutral standpoint it seems an obvious chess move.
Regulatory and customs divergence between Northern Ireland and Ireland are a restriction on cross-border trade, so your conditions mean we would stay in the single market and customs union.
Who says so? It’s the EU who are imposing the divergence. We could waive any extra tariffs etc and say our side of the border will continue to operate as is. Surely is is our sovereign choice as to how we police our border?
If the EU want to do things differently on their side then that’s up to them. They can order Ireland to do as they say.
We're the ones who want the divergence, because we're the ones that want to make our own laws.
That means goods manufactured in the UK, which are legal for sale here but not legal for sale in the common market, would need to be checked at the border. Or, at the very elast, some point before the border (which is a MaxFac sort of idea).
Yes, so in very basic terms, we would be sending lorries into Ireland and the Ireland would be stopping them, not us. In return, we can remain happy for Ireland’s lorries to enter our territory without checks. So it’s for them to build a border, not us.
That's just a big "f*** you" to the Irish, then, isn't it. "I'm going to create this problem, but it's up to you to do anything about it".
Well no?! It’s no fuck you at all. The Irish don’t want a wall and we’d be telling them we have no intention of building one. So it’d be up to the EU to build it, and I can guarantee that they never ever would.
If they did, it would cause a much bigger problem on our side than on theirs...
But they won’t. They’d threaten to, but they would never do it because it would be political disaster. Everyone knows that, so I can’t understand why we haven’t made that point clear.
They told us there would be no hard border - were they lying?
No they didn't. They said checks would be unavoidable if we leave the customs union and single market for goods, but they will not do any deal with us that doesn't address this. How long can we hold out without an FTA with our neighbours?
They told us there would be no hard border - were they lying?
No they didn't. They said checks would be unavoidable if we leave the customs union and single market for goods, but they will not do any deal with us that doesn't address this. How long can we hold out without an FTA with our neighbours?
longer than the Irish?
According to you, we're offering unilateral unrestricted access to our market, so they'll be ok.
It is quite logical to assume that if a decrease in supply of foreign workers leads to an increase in wages for the low skilled, that same decrease in supply would lead to a reduced demand for housing and public health services.
My original point was that the rich (yes, myself included, Mr William Glenn) will most likely be fine either way.
But for all their alleged thickie-thickness, I think the less well off people who voted for Brexit can grasp the concept of supply and demand. Probably because they have real life experience of their wages being suppressed year after year after year.
There is an argument to be made that we should have made an attempt to ensure supply (of housing, health services etc) kept pace with demand. But I'm not seeing it from you. Only a wishy washy promise that you can always move and get a job in Spain.
The remainers are the 2019 equivalent of Norman Tebbit telling poor people to get on their bike.
Let them eat cake.
Some less well off people voted Leave, others voted Remain, many did not vote at all. But you were talking about young people specifically in your original post. Why do you think they voted Remain if they did not want to keep FoM?
Quite a few of the people I knew in the year or two before the referendum have since buggered off to become bartenders in Berlin or freelance web designers in Barcelona. They are, without exception, living hand to mouth. Despite the fact they're five to ten years older than when their parents had steady jobs, had mortgages, and had them. They are all vocal remainers on social media.
I could also point to plenty of people I grew up with who are annoyed that jobs are hard to come by, property is hard to buy, and times are tough. Nonetheless these are the people who have managed to settle down and get a foot on the property ladder and start to have kids. They largely settled where they grew up or near where they went to uni. They almost all voted leave.
My point is that freedom of movement is not a great opportunity when, by and large, growing up and having a family tie you to one place.
Freedom of movement is not a reward, it is a booby prize for having the housing ladder and the ability to settle down taken out from underneath you. As I say, it is the "on your bike" of 2019.
Project Fear from the Treasury explicitly said houses would get 20% cheaper.
That was music to the ears of anyone who thinks house prices are too high.
Personally they are a drain on the economy with lax lending (due to lack of regulation) resulting in home loans taking an exceedingly large amount of take home pay..
I backed Trump to win the 2016 Presidency - then bailed out shortly before election day for a small profit. If I'd held my nerve I'd have been a sizeable winner.
I backed LEAVE to win the Brexit Referendum- then bailed out shortly before Referendum day at no cost either way. If I'd held my nerve I'd have been a sizeable winner.
I backed Brexit to happen before the end of March 2019 - then bailed out last week for a small loss. If I'd held my nerve I'd have ......
They told us there would be no hard border - were they lying?
No they didn't. They said checks would be unavoidable if we leave the customs union and single market for goods, but they will not do any deal with us that doesn't address this. How long can we hold out without an FTA with our neighbours?
longer than the Irish?
According to you, we're offering unilateral unrestricted access to our market, so they'll be ok.
What's given can be taken away if their chums are trying to fuck us
My point is that freedom of movement is not a great opportunity when, by and large, growing up and having a family tie you to one place.
Freedom of movement is not a reward, it is a booby prize for having the housing ladder and the ability to settle down taken out from underneath you. As I say, it is the "on your bike" of 2019.
Has the fact that the majority of net immigration to the UK has always been from outside the EU, and has rocketed since the referendum escaped you?
I know May is pretty crap at PR politics but I don’t understand why she hasn’t made three things crystal clear on the Irish border situation:
- that the NI is part of the UK and the exact same rules as the mainland MUST apply. - the UK respects in full the GFA. - the UK will not build any physical border or put in place any extra restrictions to cross border trade.
It should be easy for her to make the physical border an EU problem not a UK one. It would be an easy shift of the problem if she made one icy, emphatic speech daring the EU to build a border.
What’s the difficulty with that? From a neutral standpoint it seems an obvious chess move.
Regulatory and customs divergence between Northern Ireland and Ireland are a restriction on cross-border trade, so your conditions mean we would stay in the single market and customs union.
Who says so? It’s the EU who are imposing the divergence. We could waive any extra tariffs etc and say our side of the border will continue to operate as is. Surely is is our sovereign choice as to how we police our border?
If the EU want to do things differently on their side then that’s up to them. They can order Ireland to do as they say.
We're the ones who want the divergence, because we're the ones that want to make our own laws.
That means goods manufactured in the UK, which are legal for sale here but not legal for sale in the common market, would need to be checked at the border. Or, at the very elast, some point before the border (which is a MaxFac sort of idea).
Yes, so in very basic terms, we would be sending lorries into Ireland and the Ireland would be stopping them, not us. In return, we can remain happy for Ireland’s lorries to enter our territory without checks. So it’s for them to build a border, not us.
That's just a big "f*** you" to the Irish, then, isn't it. "I'm going to create this problem, but it's up to you to do anything about it".
Well no?! It’s no fuck you at all. The Irish don’t want a wall and we’d be telling them we have no intention of building one. So it’d be up to the EU to build it, and I can guarantee that they never ever would.
“Hi Ireland! We’re the British Government! You may remember us from such hits as (Someday we‘ll Enact) Catholic Emancipation, the Avoidable Famine and the Never Quite Home Rule Bills! Well, this time you can definitely take our word for it that our next hit “We Will NEVER erect a hard border” is better than them all! Trust Us! As you know from experience, we’re as good as our word!”
They told us there would be no hard border - were they lying?
No they didn't. They said checks would be unavoidable if we leave the customs union and single market for goods, but they will not do any deal with us that doesn't address this. How long can we hold out without an FTA with our neighbours?
longer than the Irish?
According to you, we're offering unilateral unrestricted access to our market, so they'll be ok.
What's given can be taken away if their chums are trying to fuck us
So we are going to implement trade barriers? How will we do that?
My point is that freedom of movement is not a great opportunity when, by and large, growing up and having a family tie you to one place.
Freedom of movement is not a reward, it is a booby prize for having the housing ladder and the ability to settle down taken out from underneath you. As I say, it is the "on your bike" of 2019.
Has the fact that the majority of net immigration to the UK has always been from outside the EU, and has rocketed since the referendum escaped you?
That's fantastic isn't it? Or do you consider it a bad thing?
Controlled, large scale attraction of the world's best and brightest who can only get in if they have the skills or other characteristics that we're looking for.
My point is that freedom of movement is not a great opportunity when, by and large, growing up and having a family tie you to one place.
Freedom of movement is not a reward, it is a booby prize for having the housing ladder and the ability to settle down taken out from underneath you. As I say, it is the "on your bike" of 2019.
Has the fact that the majority of net immigration to the UK has always been from outside the EU, and has rocketed since the referendum escaped you?
That's fantastic isn't it? Or do you consider it a bad thing?
Controlled, large scale attraction of the world's best and brightest who can only get in if they have the skills or other characteristics that we're looking for.
Do you think non-EU immigrants to the UK are on average "the world's best and brightest"?
It is quite logical to assume that if a decrease in supply of foreign workers leads to an increase in wages for the low skilled, that same decrease in supply would lead to a reduced demand for housing and public health services.
My original point was that the rich (yes, myself included, Mr William Glenn) will most likely be fine either way.
But for all their alleged thickie-thickness, I think the less well off people who voted for Brexit can grasp the concept of supply and demand. Probably because they have real life experience of their wages being suppressed year after year after year.
There is an argument to be made that we should have made an attempt to ensure supply (of housing, health services etc) kept pace with demand. But I'm not seeing it from you. Only a wishy washy promise that you can always move and get a job in Spain.
The remainers are the 2019 equivalent of Norman Tebbit telling poor people to get on their bike.
Let them eat cake.
Some less well off people voted Leave, others voted Remain, many did not vote at all. But you were talking about young people specifically in your original post. Why do you think they voted Remain if they did not want to keep FoM?
Quite a few of the people I knew in the year or two before the referendum have since buggered off to become bartenders in Berlin or freelance web designers in Barcelona. They are, without exception, living hand to mouth. Despite the fact they're five to ten years older than when their parents had steady jobs, had mortgages, and had them. They are all vocal remainers on social media.
I could also point to plenty of people I grew up with who are annoyed that jobs are hard to come by, property is hard to buy, and times are tough. Nonetheless these are the people who have managed to settle down and get a foot on the property ladder and start to have kids. They largely settled where they grew up or near where they went to uni. They almost all voted leave.
My point is that freedom of movement is not a great opportunity when, by and large, growing up and having a family tie you to one place.
Freedom of movement is not a reward, it is a booby prize for having the housing ladder and the ability to settle down taken out from underneath you. As I say, it is the "on your bike" of 2019.
Yep, if you have a young family you’re unlikely to use FoM. But if you don’t it’s an opportunity. Or was. I agree.
They told us there would be no hard border - were they lying?
No they didn't. They said checks would be unavoidable if we leave the customs union and single market for goods, but they will not do any deal with us that doesn't address this. How long can we hold out without an FTA with our neighbours?
longer than the Irish?
According to you, we're offering unilateral unrestricted access to our market, so they'll be ok.
What's given can be taken away if their chums are trying to fuck us
So we are going to implement trade barriers? How will we do that?
Leverage. The thought would probably be enough and recruiting some some navvies in Eire. The EU has trade barriers, I seem to recall that some are building fences, if not walls.
My point is that freedom of movement is not a great opportunity when, by and large, growing up and having a family tie you to one place.
Freedom of movement is not a reward, it is a booby prize for having the housing ladder and the ability to settle down taken out from underneath you. As I say, it is the "on your bike" of 2019.
Has the fact that the majority of net immigration to the UK has always been from outside the EU, and has rocketed since the referendum escaped you?
That's fantastic isn't it? Or do you consider it a bad thing?
Controlled, large scale attraction of the world's best and brightest who can only get in if they have the skills or other characteristics that we're looking for.
Do you think non-EU immigrants to the UK are on average "the world's best and brightest"?
My point is that freedom of movement is not a great opportunity when, by and large, growing up and having a family tie you to one place.
Freedom of movement is not a reward, it is a booby prize for having the housing ladder and the ability to settle down taken out from underneath you. As I say, it is the "on your bike" of 2019.
Has the fact that the majority of net immigration to the UK has always been from outside the EU, and has rocketed since the referendum escaped you?
That's fantastic isn't it? Or do you consider it a bad thing?
Controlled, large scale attraction of the world's best and brightest who can only get in if they have the skills or other characteristics that we're looking for.
Do you think non-EU immigrants to the UK are on average "the world's best and brightest"?
My point is that freedom of movement is not a great opportunity when, by and large, growing up and having a family tie you to one place.
Freedom of movement is not a reward, it is a booby prize for having the housing ladder and the ability to settle down taken out from underneath you. As I say, it is the "on your bike" of 2019.
Has the fact that the majority of net immigration to the UK has always been from outside the EU, and has rocketed since the referendum escaped you?
Because the EU only forms around 10% of the world's population?
Looks like May’s off to Strasbourg to give the ERG a fig leaf for caving. Could we finally see a deal done and signed off?
Anything is possible, but if a fig leaf was likely to achieve that we'd have had it by now. Ok this is last minute, but previous instances were also pretty last minute and delayed past the point we were told were last minute.
A lot of them are desperate for a way out. There are 20 or so irreconcilables, but the rest should be fine. We’ll leave and then the real fun begins.
The persistent centrist delusion that everyone really wants to vote the same way they do, but are being prevented from doing so by bizarre accidental circumstances. Voters all want a centrist party... no, not the Lib Dems, a different centrist party. And they all want to Remain, if only the Russiana hadn't used their mind control rays on them. And MPs all desperately want the deal, if only they hadn't myopically positioned themselves so that they can't possibly vote for it. We just need a new centrist party, a new referendum, a new fig leaf, and everything will be okay again!
My point is that freedom of movement is not a great opportunity when, by and large, growing up and having a family tie you to one place.
Freedom of movement is not a reward, it is a booby prize for having the housing ladder and the ability to settle down taken out from underneath you. As I say, it is the "on your bike" of 2019.
Has the fact that the majority of net immigration to the UK has always been from outside the EU, and has rocketed since the referendum escaped you?
That's fantastic isn't it? Or do you consider it a bad thing?
Controlled, large scale attraction of the world's best and brightest who can only get in if they have the skills or other characteristics that we're looking for.
Do you think non-EU immigrants to the UK are on average "the world's best and brightest"?
Yes. That's why they're able to make it through our Byzantine migration system despite lacking free movement with the 93% of the globe they're coming from.
My point is that freedom of movement is not a great opportunity when, by and large, growing up and having a family tie you to one place.
Freedom of movement is not a reward, it is a booby prize for having the housing ladder and the ability to settle down taken out from underneath you. As I say, it is the "on your bike" of 2019.
Has the fact that the majority of net immigration to the UK has always been from outside the EU, and has rocketed since the referendum escaped you?
That's fantastic isn't it? Or do you consider it a bad thing?
Controlled, large scale attraction of the world's best and brightest who can only get in if they have the skills or other characteristics that we're looking for.
Do you think non-EU immigrants to the UK are on average "the world's best and brightest"?
williamglenn = racist!
Yes, these Remainers would rather see white Europeans come to the UK than BAME Commonwealth citizens.
Surely May would have already cleared with the AG what he’d need to change his advice . She wouldn’t be going to Strasbourg in the hope he would .
That cunning plan of getting the EU and the Irish to agree not to disagree with the British statement so that Cox could indulge in the legal fiction that their silence could be construed as consent - I don't believe that idea originated in Theresa May's brain. Surely it came from Cox himself.
I have been out and just wanted to say I do understand that fashion including hats is open season for many but maybe, just now, brexit is a 'wee bit' more important !!!
Surely it cannot be Grayling or Williamson but maybe, Lidington
My point is that freedom of movement is not a great opportunity when, by and large, growing up and having a family tie you to one place.
Freedom of movement is not a reward, it is a booby prize for having the housing ladder and the ability to settle down taken out from underneath you. As I say, it is the "on your bike" of 2019.
Has the fact that the majority of net immigration to the UK has always been from outside the EU, and has rocketed since the referendum escaped you?
That's fantastic isn't it? Or do you consider it a bad thing?
Controlled, large scale attraction of the world's best and brightest who can only get in if they have the skills or other characteristics that we're looking for.
Do you think non-EU immigrants to the UK are on average "the world's best and brightest"?
williamglenn = racist!
Yes, these Remainers would rather see white Europeans come to the UK than BAME Commonwealth citizens.
No it’s because EU countries offer us reciprocal rights .
I can honestly say I have completely lost track of what this all means. Partly this is because I have had to take my eye off it all the last few weeks and concentrate on real life but even after a relatively short break I really have no idea now what the various positions are, what they mean and who, if anyone, is blinking.
Everyone seems to be thinking this is some movement from someone but who and how and where and why?
Perhaps they could agree to issue any statement only in French so most British people cannot tell what they are objecting to and we can pretend they are not. Just don't tell me what the english translation of Non, or absolument pas is.
I know snip What’s the difficulty with that? From a neutral standpoint it seems an obvious chess move.
Regulatory and customs divergence between Northern Ireland and Ireland are a restriction on cross-border trade, so your conditions mean we would stay in the single market and customs union.
snip If the EU want to do things differently on their side then that’s up to them. They can order Ireland to do as they say.
We're the ones who want the divergence, because we're the ones that want to make our own laws.
snip
snip
That's just a big "f*** you" to the Irish, then, isn't it. "I'm going to create this problem, but it's up to you to do anything about it".
Well no?! It’s no fuck you at all. The Irish don’t want a wall and we’d be telling them we have no intention of building one. So it’d be up to the EU to build it, and I can guarantee that they never ever would.
If they did, it would cause a much bigger problem on our side than on theirs...
You're wrong on that but the point is that they won't, so it wouldn't. Did you wonder why this now-oh-so-important point was almost completely absent from the referendum campaign, at least on the mainland? It's because even the Remain campaign, which lost to a bus, recognised that there was limited mileage in the campaign message "If you vote Leave the EU will build a god damned wall and then they'll send the IRA to blow it up again".
The declaration to do whatever it took to avoid a hard border, rather than unilaterally declaring 'no border infrastructure on our side' as Fenster suggested, is turning out to be an even bigger misstep than the failure to enforce the A50 right to negotiate with the Council and not the Commission.
My point is that freedom of movement is not a great opportunity when, by and large, growing up and having a family tie you to one place.
Freedom of movement is not a reward, it is a booby prize for having the housing ladder and the ability to settle down taken out from underneath you. As I say, it is the "on your bike" of 2019.
Has the fact that the majority of net immigration to the UK has always been from outside the EU, and has rocketed since the referendum escaped you?
That's fantastic isn't it? Or do you consider it a bad thing?
Controlled, large scale attraction of the world's best and brightest who can only get in if they have the skills or other characteristics that we're looking for.
Do you think non-EU immigrants to the UK are on average "the world's best and brightest"?
I’d rather have an American family living next door to me than some dreadful Frogs.
I have been out and just wanted to say I do understand that fashion including hats is open season for many but maybe, just now, brexit is a 'wee bit' more important !!!
Surely it cannot be Grayling or Williamson but maybe, Lidington
More faux drama for the plebs to believe May is battling for Britain .
The deals been done already . May isn’t going to come back empty handed . There’s no unilateral exit or end date this deal is around the arbitration panel and some extra legal assurances via a joint interpretative instrument .
As enough brexiteers such as David Davis indicated he wants to support the deal and explained privately to May what he needs to save face, what you describe here is all about 120 of them need. This 120 will be joined by 30+ Labour MPs tomorrow as May’s withdraw agreement looks set to pass comfortably.
If bets on leaving specified end of March (I know at least one poster up to their balls in such a bet) they are still on in my opinion as needing a few extra weeks to pass the legal formalities might not be needed, the financial side of things dont kick in till 18th April so finance legislation cant hold up brexit partying at end of th month.
Anyone excited by leaving should Start thinking about how to celebrate tomark the occasion.
Don't toy with viewcode's heart like that
If we leave with a deal on time, then I will be pleased but that's not why the bet was placed. My bet, which I may have mentioned, was placed to insure myself against the effects (currency collapse,etc) of a no-deal departure. If we leave with a deal, then losing the stake is not a problem as I assume GBP will climb back up to £1=$1:40 and that more than makes up the difference.
My point is that freedom of movement is not a great opportunity when, by and large, growing up and having a family tie you to one place.
Freedom of movement is not a reward, it is a booby prize for having the housing ladder and the ability to settle down taken out from underneath you. As I say, it is the "on your bike" of 2019.
Has the fact that the majority of net immigration to the UK has always been from outside the EU, and has rocketed since the referendum escaped you?
That's fantastic isn't it? Or do you consider it a bad thing?
Controlled, large scale attraction of the world's best and brightest who can only get in if they have the skills or other characteristics that we're looking for.
Do you think non-EU immigrants to the UK are on average "the world's best and brightest"?
I’d rather have an American family living next door to me than some dreadful Frogs.
My point is that freedom of movement is not a great opportunity when, by and large, growing up and having a family tie you to one place.
Freedom of movement is not a reward, it is a booby prize for having the housing ladder and the ability to settle down taken out from underneath you. As I say, it is the "on your bike" of 2019.
Has the fact that the majority of net immigration to the UK has always been from outside the EU, and has rocketed since the referendum escaped you?
That's fantastic isn't it? Or do you consider it a bad thing?
Controlled, large scale attraction of the world's best and brightest who can only get in if they have the skills or other characteristics that we're looking for.
Do you think non-EU immigrants to the UK are on average "the world's best and brightest"?
I have been out and just wanted to say I do understand that fashion including hats is open season for many but maybe, just now, brexit is a 'wee bit' more important !!!
Surely it cannot be Grayling or Williamson but maybe, Lidington
I can honestly say I have completely lost track of what this all means. Partly this is because I have had to take my eye off it all the last few weeks and concentrate on real life but even after a relatively short break I really have no idea now what the various positions are, what they mean and who, if anyone, is blinking.
Everyone seems to be thinking this is some movement from someone but who and how and where and why?
Like most things related to politics these days, everyone will get very excited, it will amount to less than it seems and it will probably all fall apart in a few weeks.
Let May proclaim victory, I don’t care just get the deal through . Then the UK can argue for the next two years and people have longer to escape during the transition period .
Perhaps they could agree to issue any statement only in French so most British people cannot tell what they are objecting to and we can pretend they are not. Just don't tell me what the english translation of Non, or absolument pas is.
Comments
Actually I've forgotten who Tom Barrow is. I hope someone is keeping an eye on the boogeyman Olly Robbins though
NO, NOT THAT ONE !!!!
It's not like anything bad has ever been smuggled across the border from the Republic, right?
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."
Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. "They've a temper, some of them—particularly verbs, they're the proudest—adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs—however, I can manage the whole lot! Impenetrability! That's what I say!"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humpty_Dumpty
The WA was "part 1" and now we're getting parts 2 AND 3:
"(2) new legal assurances on arbitration/best endeavours added to withdrawal agreement/lodged with UN And addition to the political declaration
(3) unilateral/unopposed statement"
"That depends a good deal on where you want to get to," said the Cat.
"I don’t much care where–" said Alice.
"Then it doesn’t matter which way you go," said the Cat.
"–so long as I get SOMEWHERE," Alice added as an explanation.
"Oh, you’re sure to do that," said the Cat, "if you only walk long enough."
Alice felt that this could not be denied, so she tried another question. "What sort of people live about here?"
"In THAT direction," the Cat said, waving its right paw round, "lives a Hatter: and in THAT direction," waving the other paw, "lives a March Hare. Visit either you like: they’re both mad."
"But I don’t want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can’t help that,’ said the Cat: "we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad."
"How do you know I’m mad?" said Alice.
"You must be,’ said the Cat, "or you wouldn’t have come here."
Alice didn’t think that proved it at all; however, she went on: "And how do you know that you're mad?"
"To begin with," said the Cat, "a dog's not mad. You grant that?"
"I suppose so", said Alice.
"Well then," the Cat went on, "you see a dog growls when it's angry, and wags it's tail when it's pleased. Now I growl when I'm pleased, and wag my tail when I'm angry. Therefore I'm mad.”
If the ERG refuse to back it then the rest of the party will round on them and at that point May can use the nuclear option by u turning on the second EU vote .
Everyone knows that, so I can’t understand why we haven’t made that point clear.
I could also point to plenty of people I grew up with who are annoyed that jobs are hard to come by, property is hard to buy, and times are tough. Nonetheless these are the people who have managed to settle down and get a foot on the property ladder and start to have kids. They largely settled where they grew up or near where they went to uni. They almost all voted leave.
My point is that freedom of movement is not a great opportunity when, by and large, growing up and having a family tie you to one place.
Freedom of movement is not a reward, it is a booby prize for having the housing ladder and the ability to settle down taken out from underneath you. As I say, it is the "on your bike" of 2019.
Time to get to Costco.
Personally they are a drain on the economy with lax lending (due to lack of regulation) resulting in home loans taking an exceedingly large amount of take home pay..
I backed LEAVE to win the Brexit Referendum- then bailed out shortly before Referendum day at no cost either way. If I'd held my nerve I'd have been a sizeable winner.
I backed Brexit to happen before the end of March 2019 - then bailed out last week for a small loss. If I'd held my nerve I'd have ......
Controlled, large scale attraction of the world's best and brightest who can only get in if they have the skills or other characteristics that we're looking for.
Surely it cannot be Grayling or Williamson but maybe, Lidington
Everyone seems to be thinking this is some movement from someone but who and how and where and why?
The declaration to do whatever it took to avoid a hard border, rather than unilaterally declaring 'no border infrastructure on our side' as Fenster suggested, is turning out to be an even bigger misstep than the failure to enforce the A50 right to negotiate with the Council and not the Commission.
We'll have Brexit for years.
"We [the EU] agree that the UK doesn't want the backstop."
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