Northern Ireland's Public Prosecution Service will this morning announce if any individuals are to be charged in relation to the Bloody Sunday events in Derry in 1972.
"The cold, hard fact of Brexit is that the hardliners poked and pushed so hard that they eventually rendered their dream unrealisable. Any and all leave voters ought to feel let down and disappointed by their actions. When opportunities for leaving presented themselves, hardliner MPs blocked them off.
In the end, the hard Brexiteer perfectionists bedazzled by cake and unicorns proved to be the obstacle that Brexit itself could not hurdle."
Thanks, Ms Cyclefree. Another good and thought-provoking piece. At this moment, as far as I can see, all anyone has said is that they are against whatever it is. No-one has clearly said what they are for, and, in the circumstances, how that is, realistically, to be achieved, apart perhaps from those who are for a second referendum, but even then I can't recall anyone setting out a realistic timetable.
I agree wholeheartedly with your penultimate paragraph, but it requires someone..... and someone who is likely to have support...... to have the courage to stand up and say so in the House. And they must be able say so persuasively and credibly.
To be fair to Jeremy Corbyn, he did say yesterday that the House should try to come together and find a collective way forward, but, so far as I saw, and I was doing other things last night, that's about as far as it went.
The statistics for Western airlines look even better (except for Air France). The numbers are distorted up by a relatively high number accidents in Africa and Asia - mostly involving poorly trained crews, flying poorly maintained aircraft, flying to poorly equipped airports, flying often in poor weather.
IIRC the last two fatal accidents of flights originating from Europe were MH17 (shot down over a war zone) and Germanwings 9525 (suicide by pilot), with an honourable mention to AF447 which was pilot error. I honestly can't remember the last fatal accident in Europe caused primarily by a failure of the plane, maybe as far back as Concorde in 2000?
Oh, I know they're safe. But it's also the experience of flying. I think I've only ever been economy (even whilst travelling for business), and as I'm 6'2" it's always a terrible experience. Airports, security, being jammed in next to overweight twattering teenage girls, the toilets, waiting for baggage at the other end, etc, etc.
It's all so hideously unpleasant. And that's coming from someone who likes spending time in tents...
(Cue people boasting about their exclusive first-class lounge experiences.)
This threat doesn't work because for different reasons both the opposition and the ERG are pro-chaos. You're better off threatening the ERG with order.
Threatening the ERG with anything other than May's fucking shit deal is pointless. Both revoke and no deal suit them much better. To do anything else is to bring piss to a shit fight.
I don't want to besmirch my computer by reading the Mail on it so could you give details as to when Steel supposedly knew about Fat Cyril ? Was it before, during or after.
After. He asked him in 1979 and Smith didn't deny but said police took no action. The dwarf decided it was before he was a liberal mp so nothing to do with him. He was happy to sit alongside a nonce in parliament. Doesn't say if he knew about Freud
Don't forget Thorpe.
I generally stick up for politicians of all parties, but I actually feel pretty shocked about Steel, who I've always quite liked. You decide that a one of your close associates is probably a child abuser and you do...nothing? You let him carry on? That's incredible.
One of your friends is an anti-Semite, and is creating hideous atmosphere for Jews within the party he runs and which you belong to. Yet you stick up for him, and let him carry on.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-uk/the-young-people-staring-down-an-endless-brexit For a number of reasons, Brexit has been an invidious political process. But one of the most unsettling has been the mismatch between the generations that voted for Britain’s departure and the generations that will have to bear the consequences. Around seventy per cent of those under the age of twenty-four voted Remain, while sixty per cent of those older than sixty-five voted Leave. “It’s really, really scary to watch politicians who are trying to implement something which the vast majority of us don’t want and have never wanted,” Spirit said. On January 19th, four days after the first defeat of May’s Brexit deal, OFOC celebrated what it called Cross-Over Day, on which the number of new voters entering the electoral register since the referendum should, in theory, have outnumbered the older, pro-Brexit voters who have died in the same period. “It’s quite morbid, but it does raise an interesting discussion about, like, who matters in a democracy,” Spirit told me. “It’s going to be all of the talent, energy, ingenuity of my generation who are going to be having to make sense of Brexit, which they don’t think has ever made any sense for our country.”...
The medium term risk to the Tories is obvious, given that most people settle their political instincts when young. Brexit on top of housing, student finance and the gig economy is creating a whole cohort that will grow up with long-lasting negative memories of Tory rule.
I don’t think that’s true. I think you tend to either be ambivalent, follow your peer group, or be fairly black & white (either which way) when you’re young, as your life experience is limited even if your education might be good.
Many people’s views develop and become more nuanced as they age, as they learn the complexities, greyness and hypocrisies of the world, and they do tend to become more conservative. Firstly, because they have more to conserve and second because they figure out and achieve a level of comfort with the world and their lives that leads them to be more sceptical and less desiring of radical change, and more interested in preserving what’s already there that they value.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-uk/the-young-people-staring-down-an-endless-brexit For a number of reasons, Brexit has been an invidious political process. But one of the most unsettling has been the mismatch between the generations that voted for Britain’s departure and the generations that will have to bear the consequences. Around seventy per cent of those under the age of twenty-four voted Remain, while sixty per cent of those older than sixty-five voted Leave. “It’s really, really scary to watch politicians who are trying to implement something which the vast majority of us don’t want and have never wanted,” Spirit said. On January 19th, four days after the first defeat of May’s Brexit deal, OFOC celebrated what it called Cross-Over Day, on which the number of new voters entering the electoral register since the referendum should, in theory, have outnumbered the older, pro-Brexit voters who have died in the same period. “It’s quite morbid, but it does raise an interesting discussion about, like, who matters in a democracy,” Spirit told me. “It’s going to be all of the talent, energy, ingenuity of my generation who are going to be having to make sense of Brexit, which they don’t think has ever made any sense for our country.”...
‘Spirit’ celebrates the death of older people, and it’s the other side who are “the baddies”?
If saying “It’s quite morbid, but it does raise an interesting discussion" is your idea of celebrating, please don't invite me to your birthday party. I think the point raised here, that the pro-Brexit majority will have literally died off by the time it actually happens, and it is the younger generations, who in the main didn't want Brexit, whose lives will be blighted by it, is entirely valid.
Northern Ireland's Public Prosecution Service will this morning announce if any individuals are to be charged in relation to the Bloody Sunday events in Derry in 1972.
I still don't understand this one I'm afraid, two decades after we let everyone involved in the Troubles out of prison and agreed to leave the past in the past.
Sean Fear put it well the other day when he summarised the GFA as only ending prosecutions and justice in one direction.
There are a few ways things may sort themselves out, and ultimately the universe will run out of thermodynamic free energy, so if you keep extending until then the problem will go away
https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-uk/the-young-people-staring-down-an-endless-brexit For a number of reasons, Brexit has been an invidious political process. But one of the most unsettling has been the mismatch between the generations that voted for Britain’s departure and the generations that will have to bear the consequences. Around seventy per cent of those under the age of twenty-four voted Remain, while sixty per cent of those older than sixty-five voted Leave. “It’s really, really scary to watch politicians who are trying to implement something which the vast majority of us don’t want and have never wanted,” Spirit said. On January 19th, four days after the first defeat of May’s Brexit deal, OFOC celebrated what it called Cross-Over Day, on which the number of new voters entering the electoral register since the referendum should, in theory, have outnumbered the older, pro-Brexit voters who have died in the same period. “It’s quite morbid, but it does raise an interesting discussion about, like, who matters in a democracy,” Spirit told me. “It’s going to be all of the talent, energy, ingenuity of my generation who are going to be having to make sense of Brexit, which they don’t think has ever made any sense for our country.”...
The medium term risk to the Tories is obvious, given that most people settle their political instincts when young. Brexit on top of housing, student finance and the gig economy is creating a whole cohort that will grow up with long-lasting negative memories of Tory rule.
I don’t think that’s true. I think you tend to either be ambivalent, follow your peer group, or be fairly black & white (either which way) when you’re young, as your life experience is limited even if your education might be good.
Many people’s views develop and become more nuanced as they age, as they learn the complexities, greyness and hypocrisies of the world, and they do tend to become more conservative. Firstly, because they have more to conserve and second because they figure out and achieve a level of comfort with the world and their lives that leads them to be more sceptical and less desiring of radical change, and more interested in preserving what’s already there that they value.
I think this is right. When I was younger I hated the Tories in a simplistic kind of way. Now I am older and appreciate the complexities and nuances of the world, I hate the Tories even more, but it has a far stronger grounding in reality.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-uk/the-young-people-staring-down-an-endless-brexit For a number of reasons, Brexit has been an invidious political process. But one of the most unsettling has been the mismatch between the generations that voted for Britain’s departure and the generations that will have to bear the consequences. Around seventy per cent of those under the age of twenty-four voted Remain, while sixty per cent of those older than sixty-five voted Leave. “It’s really, really scary to watch politicians who are trying to implement something which the vast majority of us don’t want and have never wanted,” Spirit said. On January 19th, four days after the first defeat of May’s Brexit deal, OFOC celebrated what it called Cross-Over Day, on which the number of new voters entering the electoral register since the referendum should, in theory, have outnumbered the older, pro-Brexit voters who have died in the same period. “It’s quite morbid, but it does raise an interesting discussion about, like, who matters in a democracy,” Spirit told me. “It’s going to be all of the talent, energy, ingenuity of my generation who are going to be having to make sense of Brexit, which they don’t think has ever made any sense for our country.”...
‘Spirit’ celebrates the death of older people, and it’s the other side who are “the baddies”?
If saying “It’s quite morbid, but it does raise an interesting discussion" is your idea of celebrating, please don't invite me to your birthday party. I think the point raised here, that the pro-Brexit majority will have literally died off by the time it actually happens, and it is the younger generations, who in the main didn't want Brexit, whose lives will be blighted by it, is entirely valid.
But it's also based on a nonsensical premise - that people's views don't change as they age. Very often, they do. Otherwise there wouldn't be a single Conservative MP left given the age profile of those who voted for them in 1997.
Such people remind me of Karl Marx, who came up with all these huge mathematical ideas on how the world would change - and then realised in 1852 that he'd been talking bollocks because people don't act on paper. The 18th Brumaire of Louis Napoleon remains the only really good and alert thing he ever wrote - and it's about his failure.
The statistics for Western airlines look even better (except for Air France). The numbers are distorted up by a relatively high number accidents in Africa and Asia - mostly involving poorly trained crews, flying poorly maintained aircraft, flying to poorly equipped airports, flying often in poor weather.
IIRC the last two fatal accidents of flights originating from Europe were MH17 (shot down over a war zone) and Germanwings 9525 (suicide by pilot), with an honourable mention to AF447 which was pilot error. I honestly can't remember the last fatal accident in Europe caused primarily by a failure of the plane, maybe as far back as Concorde in 2000?
Oh, I know they're safe. But it's also the experience of flying. I think I've only ever been economy (even whilst travelling for business), and as I'm 6'2" it's always a terrible experience. Airports, security, being jammed in next to overweight twattering teenage girls, the toilets, waiting for baggage at the other end, etc, etc.
It's all so hideously unpleasant. And that's coming from someone who likes spending time in tents...
(Cue people boasting about their exclusive first-class lounge experiences.)
Oh, I'll definitely give you that, the whole experience has got a lot worse. I'd much rather take a train or drive than say a London-Manchester or Newcastle flight, and tend to prefer smaller airports like London City or Southampton where possible. Out in the Middle East, Emirates do full-service short-haul, and the airports aren't designed primarily as shopping malls.
Travelling business class is of course a lot better, but that requires finding someone to pay for it - my last trip to London the customer paid me for a day extra to travel, as it was cheaper than putting his hand in his pocket for biz class tickets.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-uk/the-young-people-staring-down-an-endless-brexit For a number of reasons, Brexit has been an invidious political process. But one of the most unsettling has been the mismatch between the generations that voted for Britain’s departure and the generations that will have to bear the consequences. Around seventy per cent of those under the age of twenty-four voted Remain, while sixty per cent of those older than sixty-five voted Leave. “It’s really, really scary to watch politicians who are trying to implement something which the vast majority of us don’t want and have never wanted,” Spirit said. On January 19th, four days after the first defeat of May’s Brexit deal, OFOC celebrated what it called Cross-Over Day, on which the number of new voters entering the electoral register since the referendum should, in theory, have outnumbered the older, pro-Brexit voters who have died in the same period. “It’s quite morbid, but it does raise an interesting discussion about, like, who matters in a democracy,” Spirit told me. “It’s going to be all of the talent, energy, ingenuity of my generation who are going to be having to make sense of Brexit, which they don’t think has ever made any sense for our country.”...
The medium term risk to the Tories is obvious, given that most people settle their political instincts when young. Brexit on top of housing, student finance and the gig economy is creating a whole cohort that will grow up with long-lasting negative memories of Tory rule.
I don’t think that’s true. I think you tend to either be ambivalent, follow your peer group, or be fairly black & white (either which way) when you’re young, as your life experience is limited even if your education might be good.
Many people’s views develop and become more nuanced as they age, as they learn the complexities, greyness and hypocrisies of the world, and they do tend to become more conservative. Firstly, because they have more to conserve and second because they figure out and achieve a level of comfort with the world and their lives that leads them to be more sceptical and less desiring of radical change, and more interested in preserving what’s already there that they value.
"Many people’s views develop and become more nuanced as they age, as they learn the complexities, greyness and hypocrisies of the world, and they do tend to become more conservative. "
When linked with Brexit's complexities, greyness and hypocrisies, that explains why the Tories are now ahead by 8-10%.....
This threat doesn't work because for different reasons both the opposition and the ERG are pro-chaos. You're better off threatening the ERG with order.
Threatening the ERG with anything other than May's fucking shit deal is pointless. Both revoke and no deal suit them much better. To do anything else is to bring piss to a shit fight.
Yup. I guess the open question is whether there are some responsible opposition MPs who would jump if the EU let them carry on barreling along towards the cliff edge. But I think the answer is no, there aren't many responsible opposition MPs, and even if there were they know that TMay can revoke.
I don't want to besmirch my computer by reading the Mail on it so could you give details as to when Steel supposedly knew about Fat Cyril ? Was it before, during or after.
After. He asked him in 1979 and Smith didn't deny but said police took no action. The dwarf decided it was before he was a liberal mp so nothing to do with him. He was happy to sit alongside a nonce in parliament. Doesn't say if he knew about Freud
Don't forget Thorpe.
I generally stick up for politicians of all parties, but I actually feel pretty shocked about Steel, who I've always quite liked. You decide that a one of your close associates is probably a child abuser and you do...nothing? You let him carry on? That's incredible.
It is hard to remember, but precisely that attitude of turning a blind eye was quite common back then. A very large amount of abuse went unpunished.
Voting with Labour to bring the government down . That will go down well with the rest of the party , they refuse to accept reality and are unhinged .
Going down well with the party is really bothering Soubry isn't it?
She's not in the party though. If the ERG vote with Labour to bring down the government they need to be expelled and we should run candidates against them.
Thanks, Ms Cyclefree. Another good and thought-provoking piece. At this moment, as far as I can see, all anyone has said is that they are against whatever it is. No-one has clearly said what they are for, and, in the circumstances, how that is, realistically, to be achieved, apart perhaps from those who are for a second referendum, but even then I can't recall anyone setting out a realistic timetable.
I agree wholeheartedly with your penultimate paragraph, but it requires someone..... and someone who is likely to have support...... to have the courage to stand up and say so in the House. And they must be able say so persuasively and credibly.
To be fair to Jeremy Corbyn, he did say yesterday that the House should try to come together and find a collective way forward, but, so far as I saw, and I was doing other things last night, that's about as far as it went.
We're still at the stage where "coming together" means "agreeing with me." Compromise is still something that other MP's have to do.
Mr. B, interesting. In After the Ice, Steven Mithen mentions the view some hold that the Young Dryas was caused by a massive (long gone) lake in what today is North America returning its waters to the sea.
Mr. Sandpit, quite. It's legitimate to either believe all crimes must be prosecuted or that reconciliation requires such things to be left in the past, but it's hypocritical to let our convicted terrorists then go chasing after soldiers decades after the events that occurred. Justice can't be just for one side. If prosecuting some people is necessary, prosecuting all suspected (with evidence) of crime is necessary.
Northern Ireland's Public Prosecution Service will this morning announce if any individuals are to be charged in relation to the Bloody Sunday events in Derry in 1972.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-uk/the-young-people-staring-down-an-endless-brexit For a number of reasons, Brexit has been an invidious political process. But one of the most unsettling has been the mismatch between the generations that voted for Britain’s departure and the generations that will have to bear the consequences. Around seventy per cent of those under the age of twenty-four voted Remain, while sixty per cent of those older than sixty-five voted Leave. “It’s really, really scary to watch politicians who are trying to implement something which the vast majority of us don’t want and have never wanted,” Spirit said. On January 19th, four days after the first defeat of May’s Brexit deal, OFOC celebrated what it called Cross-Over Day, on which the number of new voters entering the electoral register since the referendum should, in theory, have outnumbered the older, pro-Brexit voters who have died in the same period. “It’s quite morbid, but it does raise an interesting discussion about, like, who matters in a democracy,” Spirit told me. “It’s going to be all of the talent, energy, ingenuity of my generation who are going to be having to make sense of Brexit, which they don’t think has ever made any sense for our country.”...
‘Spirit’ celebrates the death of older people, and it’s the other side who are “the baddies”?
If saying “It’s quite morbid, but it does raise an interesting discussion" is your idea of celebrating, please don't invite me to your birthday party. I think the point raised here, that the pro-Brexit majority will have literally died off by the time it actually happens, and it is the younger generations, who in the main didn't want Brexit, whose lives will be blighted by it, is entirely valid.
But it's also based on a nonsensical premise - that people's views don't change as they age. Very often, they do. Otherwise there wouldn't be a single Conservative MP left given the age profile of those who voted for them in 1997.
Such people remind me of Karl Marx, who came up with all these huge mathematical ideas on how the world would change - and then realised in 1852 that he'd been talking bollocks because people don't act on paper. The 18th Brumaire of Louis Napoleon remains the only really good and alert thing he ever wrote - and it's about his failure.
I think that's true in general but on Brexit I am not so sure. Leavers themselves like to tell us that people haven't changed their mind. I'm approaching the crossover age group myself and I can assure you I am feeling no more Brexity as my remaining hair turns greyer.
"The cold, hard fact of Brexit is that the hardliners poked and pushed so hard that they eventually rendered their dream unrealisable. Any and all leave voters ought to feel let down and disappointed by their actions. When opportunities for leaving presented themselves, hardliner MPs blocked them off.
In the end, the hard Brexiteer perfectionists bedazzled by cake and unicorns proved to be the obstacle that Brexit itself could not hurdle."
https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-uk/the-young-people-staring-down-an-endless-brexit For a number of reasons, Brexit has been an invidious political process. But one of the most unsettling has been the mismatch between the generations that voted for Britain’s departure and the generations that will have to bear the consequences. Around seventy per cent of those under the age of twenty-four voted Remain, while sixty per cent of those older than sixty-five voted Leave. “It’s really, really scary to watch politicians who are trying to implement something which the vast majority of us don’t want and have never wanted,” Spirit said. On January 19th, four days after the first defeat of May’s Brexit deal, OFOC celebrated what it called Cross-Over Day, on which the number of new voters entering the electoral register since the referendum should, in theory, have outnumbered the older, pro-Brexit voters who have died in the same period. “It’s quite morbid, but it does raise an interesting discussion about, like, who matters in a democracy,” Spirit told me. “It’s going to be all of the talent, energy, ingenuity of my generation who are going to be having to make sense of Brexit, which they don’t think has ever made any sense for our country.”...
‘Spirit’ celebrates the death of older people, and it’s the other side who are “the baddies”?
If saying “It’s quite morbid, but it does raise an interesting discussion" is your idea of celebrating, please don't invite me to your birthday party. I think the point raised here, that the pro-Brexit majority will have literally died off by the time it actually happens, and it is the younger generations, who in the main didn't want Brexit, whose lives will be blighted by it, is entirely valid.
But it's also based on a nonsensical premise - that people's views don't change as they age. Very often, they do. Otherwise there wouldn't be a single Conservative MP left given the age profile of those who voted for them in 1997.
Such people remind me of Karl Marx, who came up with all these huge mathematical ideas on how the world would change - and then realised in 1852 that he'd been talking bollocks because people don't act on paper. The 18th Brumaire of Louis Napoleon remains the only really good and alert thing he ever wrote - and it's about his failure.
But Brexit is not a conservative project so much as a revolutionary one. If a no deal Brexit blights their prospects for a decade, I can’t see the young becoming more enamoured of it, or the Tory party, as they age.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-uk/the-young-people-staring-down-an-endless-brexit For a number of reasons, Brexit has been an invidious political process. But one of the most unsettling has been the mismatch between the generations that voted for Britain’s departure and the generations that will have to bear the consequences. Around seventy per cent of those under the age of twenty-four voted Remain, while sixty per cent of those older than sixty-five voted Leave. “It’s really, really scary to watch politicians who are trying to implement something which the vast majority of us don’t want and have never wanted,” Spirit said. On January 19th, four days after the first defeat of May’s Brexit deal, OFOC celebrated what it called Cross-Over Day, on which the number of new voters entering the electoral register since the referendum should, in theory, have outnumbered the older, pro-Brexit voters who have died in the same period. “It’s quite morbid, but it does raise an interesting discussion about, like, who matters in a democracy,” Spirit told me. “It’s going to be all of the talent, energy, ingenuity of my generation who are going to be having to make sense of Brexit, which they don’t think has ever made any sense for our country.”...
The medium term risk to the Tories is obvious, given that most people settle their political instincts when young. Brexit on top of housing, student finance and the gig economy is creating a whole cohort that will grow up with long-lasting negative memories of Tory rule.
I don’t think that’s true. I think you tend to either be ambivalent, follow your peer group, or be fairly black & white (either which way) when you’re young, as your life experience is limited even if your education might be good.
Many people’s views develop and become more nuanced as they age, as they learn the complexities, greyness and hypocrisies of the world, and they do tend to become more conservative. Firstly, because they have more to conserve and second because they figure out and achieve a level of comfort with the world and their lives that leads them to be more sceptical and less desiring of radical change, and more interested in preserving what’s already there that they value.
Historically that was probably true, but will the Generation Rent and Generation Student Debt have sufficient reason to conserve a societal settlement that screws them? Their cultural values against nativism are not likely to shift either.
The statistics for Western airlines look even better (except for Air France). The numbers are distorted up by a relatively high number accidents in Africa and Asia - mostly involving poorly trained crews, flying poorly maintained aircraft, flying to poorly equipped airports, flying often in poor weather.
IIRC the last two fatal accidents of flights originating from Europe were MH17 (shot down over a war zone) and Germanwings 9525 (suicide by pilot), with an honourable mention to AF447 which was pilot error. I honestly can't remember the last fatal accident in Europe caused primarily by a failure of the plane, maybe as far back as Concorde in 2000?
Oh, I know they're safe. But it's also the experience of flying. I think I've only ever been economy (even whilst travelling for business), and as I'm 6'2" it's always a terrible experience. Airports, security, being jammed in next to overweight twattering teenage girls, the toilets, waiting for baggage at the other end, etc, etc.
It's all so hideously unpleasant. And that's coming from someone who likes spending time in tents...
(Cue people boasting about their exclusive first-class lounge experiences.)
With Concorde in 2000 I thought it was debris on the runway that damaged the plane? So not a mechanical failure directly
The medium term risk to the Tories is obvious, given that most people settle their political instincts when young. Brexit on top of housing, student finance and the gig economy is creating a whole cohort that will grow up with long-lasting negative memories of Tory rule.
I don’t think that’s true. I think you tend to either be ambivalent, follow your peer group, or be fairly black & white (either which way) when you’re young, as your life experience is limited even if your education might be good.
Many people’s views develop and become more nuanced as they age, as they learn the complexities, greyness and hypocrisies of the world, and they do tend to become more conservative. Firstly, because they have more to conserve and second because they figure out and achieve a level of comfort with the world and their lives that leads them to be more sceptical and less desiring of radical change, and more interested in preserving what’s already there that they value.
For sure, I wasn't seeking to argue that views don't change with age - the predominance of Tory pensioners owes only a small part to Tory dominance when they were young. Of course when people pick up responsibilities and become more settled in middle age they trend away from more radical views.
Nevertheless, firstly the late teens and early 20s when political views take shape is the prism through which subsequent events are viewed and, secondly, issues like Brexit and housing are likely to resonate through to middle age (average age of first home ownership is already late 30s and rising)
https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-uk/the-young-people-staring-down-an-endless-brexit For a number of reasons, Brexit has been an invidious political process. But one of the most unsettling has been the mismatch between the generations that voted for Britain’s departure and the generations that will have to bear the consequences. Around seventy per cent of those under the age of twenty-four voted Remain, while sixty per cent of those older than sixty-five voted Leave. “It’s really, really scary to watch politicians who are trying to implement something which the vast majority of us don’t want and have never wanted,” Spirit said. On January 19th, four days after the first defeat of May’s Brexit deal, OFOC celebrated what it called Cross-Over Day, on which the number of new voters entering the electoral registeririt told me. “It’s going to be all of the talent, energy, ingenuity of my generation who are going to be having to make sense of Brexit, which they don’t think has ever made any sense for our country.”...
‘Spirit’ celebrates the death of older people, and it’s the other side who are “the baddies”?
If saying “It’s quite morbid, but it does raise an interesting discussion" is your idea of celebrating, please don't invite me to your birthday party. I think the point raised here, that the pro-Brexit majority will have literally died off by the time it actually happens, and it is the younger generations, who in the main didn't want Brexit, whose lives will be blighted by it, is entirely valid.
But it's also based on a nonsensical premise - that people's views don't change as they age. Very often, they do. Otherwise there wouldn't be a single Conservative MP left given the age profile of those who voted for them in 1997.
Such people remind me of Karl Marx, who came up with all these huge mathematical ideas on how the world would change - and then realised in 1852 that he'd been talking bollocks because people don't act on paper. The 18th Brumaire of Louis Napoleon remains the only really good and alert thing he ever wrote - and it's about his failure.
I think that's true in general but on Brexit I am not so sure. Leavers themselves like to tell us that people haven't changed their mind. I'm approaching the crossover age group myself and I can assure you I am feeling no more Brexity as my remaining hair turns greyer.
Well, somebody is supporting right wing parties, just now, to put them on 46%.
If saying “It’s quite morbid, but it does raise an interesting discussion" is your idea of celebrating, please don't invite me to your birthday party. I think the point raised here, that the pro-Brexit majority will have literally died off by the time it actually happens, and it is the younger generations, who in the main didn't want Brexit, whose lives will be blighted by it, is entirely valid.
But it's also based on a nonsensical premise - that people's views don't change as they age. Very often, they do. Otherwise there wouldn't be a single Conservative MP left given the age profile of those who voted for them in 1997.
Such people remind me of Karl Marx, who came up with all these huge mathematical ideas on how the world would change - and then realised in 1852 that he'd been talking bollocks because people don't act on paper. The 18th Brumaire of Louis Napoleon remains the only really good and alert thing he ever wrote - and it's about his failure.
I think that's true in general but on Brexit I am not so sure. Leavers themselves like to tell us that people haven't changed their mind. I'm approaching the crossover age group myself and I can assure you I am feeling no more Brexity as my remaining hair turns greyer.
Leavers like to tell us that Leavers haven't changed their minds (which I think was true until a few weeks ago, btw, but now I am starting to sense a shift). But Leavers were, in any case, the least likely to be growing older because they had quite a high age profile already, and therefore those least likely to be affected by changing circumstances.
So I still don't accept the validity of the article. It seems to me little more than confirmation bias and wishful thinking.
I don't want to besmirch my computer by reading the Mail on it so could you give details as to when Steel supposedly knew about Fat Cyril ? Was it before, during or after.
After. He asked him in 1979 and Smith didn't deny but said police took no action. The dwarf decided it was before he was a liberal mp so nothing to do with him. He was happy to sit alongside a nonce in parliament. Doesn't say if he knew about Freud
Don't forget Thorpe.
I generally stick up for politicians of all parties, but I actually feel pretty shocked about Steel, who I've always quite liked. You decide that a one of your close associates is probably a child abuser and you do...nothing? You let him carry on? That's incredible.
It is hard to remember, but precisely that attitude of turning a blind eye was quite common back then. A very large amount of abuse went unpunished.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-uk/the-young-people-staring-down-an-endless-brexit For a number of reasons, Brexit has been an invidious political process. But one of the most unsettling has been the mismatch between the generations that voted for Britain’s departure and the generations that will have to bear the consequences. Around seventy per cent of those under the age of twenty-four voted Remain, while sixty per cent of those older than sixty-five voted Leave. “It’s really, really scary to watch politicians who are trying to implement something which the vast majority of us don’t want and have never wanted,” Spirit said. On January 19th, four days after the first defeat of May’s Brexit deal, OFOC celebrated what it called Cross-Over Day, on which the number of new voters entering the electoral register since the referendum should, in theory, have outnumbered the older, pro-Brexit voters who have died in the same period. “It’s quite morbid, but it does raise an interesting discussion about, like, who matters in a democracy,” Spirit told me. “It’s going to be all of the talent, energy, ingenuity of my generation who are going to be having to make sense of Brexit, which they don’t think has ever made any sense for our country.”...
The medium term risk to the Tories is obvious, given that most people settle their political instincts when young. Brexit on top of housing, student finance and the gig economy is creating a whole cohort that will grow up with long-lasting negative memories of Tory rule.
I don’t think that’s true. I think you tend to either be ambivalent, follow your peer group, or be fairly black & white (either which way) when you’re young, as your life experience is limited even if your education might be good.
Many people’s views develop and become more nuanced as they age, as they learn the complexities, greyness and hypocrisies of the world, and they do tend to become more conservative. Firstly, because they have more to conserve and second because they figure out and achieve a level of comfort with the world and their lives that leads them to be more sceptical and less desiring of radical change, and more interested in preserving what’s already there that they value.
Historically that was probably true, but will the Generation Rent and Generation Student Debt have sufficient reason to conserve a societal settlement that screws them? Their cultural values against nativism are not likely to shift either.
Given how many first time buyers there now are, you will have people deciding that things are not so bad after all.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-uk/the-young-people-staring-down-an-endless-brexit For a number of reasons, Brexit has been an invidious political process. But one of the most unsettling has been the mismatch between the generations that voted for Britain’s departure and the generations that will have to bear the consequences. Around seventy per cent of those under the age of twenty-four voted Remain, while sixty per cent of those older than sixty-five voted Leave. “It’s really, really scary to watch politicians who are trying to implement something which the vast majority of us don’t want and have never wanted,” Spirit said. On January 19th, four days after the first defeat of May’s Brexit deal, OFOC celebrated what it called Cross-Over Day, on which the number of new voters entering the electoral register since the referendum should, in theory, have outnumbered the older, pro-Brexit voters who have died in the same period. “It’s quite morbid, but it does raise an interesting discussion about, like, who matters in a democracy,” Spirit told me. “It’s going to be all of the talent, energy, ingenuity of my generation who are going to be having to make sense of Brexit, which they don’t think has ever made any sense for our country.”...
The medium term risk to the Tories is obvious, given that most people settle their political instincts when young. Brexit on top of housing, student finance and the gig economy is creating a whole cohort that will grow up with long-lasting negative memories of Tory rule.
I don’t think that’s true. I think you tend to either be ambivalent, follow your peer group, or be fairly black & white (either which way) when you’re young, as your life experience is limited even if your education might be good.
Many people’s views develop and become more nuanced as they age, as they learn the complexities, greyness and hypocrisies of the world, and they do tend to become more conservative. Firstly, because they have more to conserve and second because they figure out and achieve a level of comfort with the world and their lives that leads them to be more sceptical and less desiring of radical change, and more interested in preserving what’s already there that they value.
I think this is right. When I was younger I hated the Tories in a simplistic kind of way. Now I am older and appreciate the complexities and nuances of the world, I hate the Tories even more, but it has a far stronger grounding in reality.
That you still 'hate' shows how much you have matured.
I don't want to besmirch my computer by reading the Mail on it so could you give details as to when Steel supposedly knew about Fat Cyril ? Was it before, during or after.
After. He asked him in 1979 and Smith didn't deny but said police took no action. The dwarf decided it was before he was a liberal mp so nothing to do with him. He was happy to sit alongside a nonce in parliament. Doesn't say if he knew about Freud
Don't forget Thorpe.
I generally stick up for politicians of all parties, but I actually feel pretty shocked about Steel, who I've always quite liked. You decide that a one of your close associates is probably a child abuser and you do...nothing? You let him carry on? That's incredible.
It is hard to remember, but precisely that attitude of turning a blind eye was quite common back then. A very large amount of abuse went unpunished.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-uk/the-young-people-staring-down-an-endless-brexit For a number of reasons, Brexit has been an invidious political process. But one of the most unsettling has been the mismatch between the generations that voted for Britain’s departure and the generations that will have to bear the consequences. Around seventy per cent of those under the age of twenty-four voted Remain, while sixty per cent of those older than sixty-five voted Leave. “It’s really, really scary to watch politicians who are trying to implement something which the vast majority of us don’t want and have never wanted,” Spirit said. On January 19th, four days after the first defeat of May’s Brexit deal, OFOC celebrated what it called Cross-Over Day, on which the number of new voters entering the electoral registeririt told me. “It’s going to be all of the talent, energy, ingenuity of my generation who are going to be having to make sense of Brexit, which they don’t think has ever made any sense for our country.”...
‘Spirit’ c
If saying “It’s quite morbid, but it does raise an interesting discussion" is your idea of celebrating, please don't invite me to your birthday party. I think the point raised here, that the pro-Brexit majority will have literally died off by the time it actually happens, and it is the younger generations, who in the main didn't want Brexit, whose lives will be blighted by it, is entirely valid.
But it's also based on a nonsensical premise - that people's views don't change as they age. Very often, they do. Otherwise there wouldn't be a single Conservative MP left given the age profile of those who voted for them in 1997.
Such people remind me of Karl Marx, who came up with all these huge mathematical ideas on how the world would change - and then realised in 1852 that he'd been talking bollocks because people don't act on paper. The 18th Brumaire of Louis Napoleon remains the only really good and alert thing he ever wrote - and it's about his failure.
I think that's true in general but on Brexit I am not so sure. Leavers themselves like to tell us that people haven't changed their mind. I'm approaching the crossover age group myself and I can assure you I am feeling no more Brexity as my remaining hair turns greyer.
Well, somebody is supporting right wing parties, just now, to put them on 46%.
It’s astonishing how close knit the circles are, though.
In my professional and social circle in London Leavers and Conservatives are either totally absent or very very quiet about it.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-uk/the-young-people-staring-down-an-endless-brexit For a number of reasons, Brexit has been an invidious political process. But one of the most unsettling has been the mismatch between the generations that voted for Britain’s departure and the generations that will have to bear the consequences. Around seventy per cent of those under the age of twenty-four voted Remain, while sixty per cent of those older than sixty-five voted Leave. “It’s really, really scary to watch politicians who are trying to implement something which the vast majority of us don’t want and have never wanted,” Spirit said. On January 19th, four days after the first defeat of May’s Brexit deal, OFOC celebrated what it called Cross-Over Day, on which the number of new voters entering the electoral register since the referendum should, in theory, have outnumbered the older, pro-Brexit voters who have died in the same period. “It’s quite morbid, but it does raise an interesting discussion about, like, who matters in a democracy,” Spirit told me. “It’s going to be all of the talent, energy, ingenuity of my generation who are going to be having to make sense of Brexit, which they don’t think has ever made any sense for our country.”...
‘Spirit’ celebrates the death of older people, and it’s the other side who are “the baddies”?
If saying “It’s quite morbid, but it does raise an interesting discussion" is your idea of celebrating, please don't invite me to your birthday party. I think the point raised here, that the pro-Brexit majority will have literally died off by the time it actually happens, and it is the younger generations, who in the main didn't want Brexit, whose lives will be blighted by it, is entirely valid.
The article is an interview with the founder of OFOC, and says in terms that OFOC celebrated the day it thought enough wrong-voting old people had died.
The medium term risk to the Tories is obvious, given that most people settle their political instincts when young. Brexit on top of housing, student finance and the gig economy is creating a whole cohort that will grow up with long-lasting negative memories of Tory rule.
I don’t think that’s true. I think you tend to either be ambivalent, follow your peer group, or be fairly black & white (either which way) when you’re young, as your life experience is limited even if your education might be good.
Many people’s views develop and become more nuanced as they age, as they learn the complexities, greyness and hypocrisies of the world, and they do tend to become more conservative. Firstly, because they have more to conserve and second because they figure out and achieve a level of comfort with the world and their lives that leads them to be more sceptical and less desiring of radical change, and more interested in preserving what’s already there that they value.
For sure, I wasn't seeking to argue that views don't change with age - the predominance of Tory pensioners owes only a small part to Tory dominance when they were young. Of course when people pick up responsibilities and become more settled in middle age they trend away from more radical views.
Nevertheless, firstly the late teens and early 20s when political views take shape is the prism through which subsequent events are viewed and, secondly, issues like Brexit and housing are likely to resonate through to middle age (average age of first home ownership is already late 30s and rising)
Many of those voting Leave now were dewy-eyed hopeful europhiles and hippies in the 60s and 70s.
The statistics for Western airlines look even better (except for Air France). The numbers are distorted up by a relatively high number accidents in Africa and Asia - mostly involving poorly trained crews, flying poorly maintained aircraft, flying to poorly equipped airports, flying often in poor weather.
IIRC the last two fatal accidents of flights originating from Europe were MH17 (shot down over a war zone) and Germanwings 9525 (suicide by pilot), with an honourable mention to AF447 which was pilot error. I honestly can't remember the last fatal accident in Europe caused primarily by a failure of the plane, maybe as far back as Concorde in 2000?
Oh, I know they're safe. But it's also the experience of flying. I think I've only ever been economy (even whilst travelling for business), and as I'm 6'2" it's always a terrible experience. Airports, security, being jammed in next to overweight twattering teenage girls, the toilets, waiting for baggage at the other end, etc, etc.
It's all so hideously unpleasant. And that's coming from someone who likes spending time in tents...
(Cue people boasting about their exclusive first-class lounge experiences.)
With Concorde in 2000 I thought it was debris on the runway that damaged the plane? So not a mechanical failure directly
Yes, the initiation of the event was a metal strip departed from another plane, that pierced a tyre, that hit the fuel tank, that exploded and doomed the plane. Contributing factors were an overweight plane taking off downwind, and a missing shim in the wheel assembly, all human errors.
For a number of reasons, Brexit has been an invidious political process. But one of the most unsettling has been the mismatch between the generations that voted for Britain’s departure and the generations that will have to bear the consequences. Around seventy per cent of those under the age of twenty-four voted Remain, while sixty per cent of those older than sixty-five voted Leave. “It’s really, really scary to watch politicians who are trying to implement something which the vast majority of us don’t want and have never wanted,” Spirit said. On January 19th, four days after the first defeat of May’s Brexit deal, OFOC celebrated what it called Cross-Over Day, on which the number of new voters entering the electoral register since the referendum should, in theory, have outnumbered the older, pro-Brexit voters who have died in the same period. “It’s quite morbid, but it does raise an interesting discussion about, like, who matters in a democracy,” Spirit told me. “It’s going to be all of the talent, energy, ingenuity of my generation who are going to be having to make sense of Brexit, which they don’t think has ever made any sense for our country.”...
The medium term risk to the Tories is obvious, given that most people settle their political instincts when young. Brexit on top of housing, student finance and the gig economy is creating a whole cohort that will grow up with long-lasting negative memories of Tory rule.
I don’t think that’s true. I think you tend to either be ambivalent, follow your peer group, or be fairly black & white (either which way) when you’re young, as your life experience is limited even if your education might be good.
Many people’s views develop and become more nuanced as they age, as they learn the complexities, greyness and hypocrisies of the world, and they do tend to become more conservative. Firstly, because they have more to conserve and second because they figure out and achieve a level of comfort with the world and their lives that leads them to be more sceptical and less desiring of radical change, and more interested in preserving what’s already there that they value.
Historically that was probably true, but will the Generation Rent and Generation Student Debt have sufficient reason to conserve a societal settlement that screws them? Their cultural values against nativism are not likely to shift either.
I agree, I’m far more worried about the money.
Nevertheless that does tend to be a metropolitan and graduate problem, and, more particularly, a London and the south east problem.
In Manchester, Brighton, Bristol, Oxford and Cambridge, it’s a cultural problem.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-uk/the-young-people-staring-down-an-endless-brexit For a number of reasons, Brexit has been an invidious political process. But one of the most unsettling has been the mismatch between the generations that voted for Britain’s departure and the generations that will have to bear the consequences. Around seventy per cent of those under the age of twenty-four voted Remain, while sixty per cent of those older than sixty-five voted Leave. “It’s really, really scary to watch politicians who are trying to implement something which the vast majority of us don’t want and have never wanted,” Spirit said. On January 19th, four days after the first defeat of May’s Brexit deal, OFOC celebrated what it called Cross-Over Day, on which the number of new voters entering the electoral register since the referendum should, in theory, have outnumbered the older, pro-Brexit voters who have died in the same period. “It’s quite morbid, but it does raise an interesting discussion about, like, who matters in a democracy,” Spirit told me. “It’s going to be all of the talent, energy, ingenuity of my generation who are going to be having to make sense of Brexit, which they don’t think has ever made any sense for our country.”...
‘Spirit’ celebrates the death of older people, and it’s the other side who are “the baddies”?
If saying “It’s quite morbid, but it does raise an interesting discussion" is your idea of celebrating, please don't invite me to your birthday party. I think the point raised here, that the pro-Brexit majority will have literally died off by the time it actually happens, and it is the younger generations, who in the main didn't want Brexit, whose lives will be blighted by it, is entirely valid.
But it's also based on a nonsensical premise - that people's views don't change as they age. Very often, they do. Otherwise there wouldn't be a single Conservative MP left given the age profile of those who voted for them in 1997.
This is true for party voting, but i am very sceptical it is true for the Brexit referendum. The shock suffered by remainers hearing the result means that very very few will have switched in the last 2 years. I doubt the demographic change alone is enough to claw back the 1.9% needed to win a second referendum, but will be a significant factor.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-uk/the-young-people-staring-down-an-endless-brexit For a number of reasons, Brexit has been an invidious political process. But one of the most unsettling has been the mismatch between the generations that voted for Britain’s departure and the generations that will have to bear the consequences. Around seventy per cent of those under the age of twenty-four voted Remain, while sixty per cent of those older than sixty-five voted Leave. “It’s really, really scary to watch politicians who are trying to implement something which the vast majority of us don’t want and have never wanted,” Spirit said. On January 19th, four days after the first defeat of May’s Brexit deal, OFOC celebrated what it called Cross-Over Day, on which the number of new voters entering the electoral register since the referendum should, in theory, have outnumbered the older, pro-Brexit voters who have died in the same period. “It’s quite morbid, but it does raise an interesting discussion about, like, who matters in a democracy,” Spirit told me. “It’s going to be all of the talent, energy, ingenuity of my generation who are going to be having to make sense of Brexit, which they don’t think has ever made any sense for our country.”...
The medium term risk to the Tories is obvious, given that most people settle their political instincts when young. Brexit on top of housing, student finance and the gig economy is creating a whole cohort that will grow up with long-lasting negative memories of Tory rule.
I don’t think that’s true. I think you tend to either be ambivalent, follow your peer group, or be fairly black & white (either which way) when you’re young, as your life experience is limited even if your education might be good.
Many people’s views develop and become more nuanced as they age, as they learn the complexities, greyness and hypocrisies of the world, and they do tend to become more conservative. Firstly, because they have more to conserve and second because they figure out and achieve a level of comfort with the world and their lives that leads them to be more sceptical and less desiring of radical change, and more interested in preserving what’s already there that they value.
I think this is right. When I was younger I hated the Tories in a simplistic kind of way. Now I am older and appreciate the complexities and nuances of the world, I hate the Tories even more, but it has a far stronger grounding in reality.
I doubt you do, and that rhetoric is mainly for show.
If saying “It’s quite morbid, but it does raise an interesting discussion" is your idea of celebrating, please don't invite me to your birthday party. I think the point raised here, that the pro-Brexit majority will have literally died off by the time it actually happens, and it is the younger generations, who in the main didn't want Brexit, whose lives will be blighted by it, is entirely valid.
But it's also based on a nonsensical premise - that people's views don't change as they age. Very often, they do. Otherwise there wouldn't be a single Conservative MP left given the age profile of those who voted for them in 1997.
Such people remind me of Karl Marx, who came up with all these huge mathematical ideas on how the world would change - and then realised in 1852 that he'd been talking bollocks because people don't act on paper. The 18th Brumaire of Louis Napoleon remains the only really good and alert thing he ever wrote - and it's about his failure.
I think that's true in general but on Brexit I am not so sure. Leavers themselves like to tell us that people haven't changed their mind. I'm approaching the crossover age group myself and I can assure you I am feeling no more Brexity as my remaining hair turns greyer.
Leavers like to tell us that Leavers haven't changed their minds (which I think was true until a few weeks ago, btw, but now I am starting to sense a shift). But Leavers were, in any case, the least likely to be growing older
Northern Ireland's Public Prosecution Service will this morning announce if any individuals are to be charged in relation to the Bloody Sunday events in Derry in 1972.
I don't want to besmirch my computer by reading the Mail on it so could you give details as to when Steel supposedly knew about Fat Cyril ? Was it before, during or after.
After. He asked him in 1979 and Smith didn't deny but said police took no action. The dwarf decided it was before he was a liberal mp so nothing to do with him. He was happy to sit alongside a nonce in parliament. Doesn't say if he knew about Freud
Don't forget Thorpe.
I generally stick up for politicians of all parties, but I actually feel pretty shocked about Steel, who I've always quite liked. You decide that a one of your close associates is probably a child abuser and you do...nothing? You let him carry on? That's incredible.
It is hard to remember, but precisely that attitude of turning a blind eye was quite common back then. A very large amount of abuse went unpunished.
Its a sad comment on attitudes in the 70s and early 80s. File alongside Thatcher and that MP from Chester, and Greville Janner.
I think that there was a widespread tendency then to view homosexuality and paedophila as being one and the same thing. It led some people to think that they should be tolerant of both.
Why no hope of passing? If Labours amendment carries, the same people will vote for the substantive. If Labour fails to amend it, it'll go through by a larger margin.
I don't want to besmirch my computer by reading the Mail on it so could you give details as to when Steel supposedly knew about Fat Cyril ? Was it before, during or after.
After. He asked him in 1979 and Smith didn't deny but said police took no action. The dwarf decided it was before he was a liberal mp so nothing to do with him. He was happy to sit alongside a nonce in parliament. Doesn't say if he knew about Freud
Don't forget Thorpe.
I generally stick up for politicians of all parties, but I actually feel pretty shocked about Steel, who I've always quite liked. You decide that a one of your close associates is probably a child abuser and you do...nothing? You let him carry on? That's incredible.
It is hard to remember, but precisely that attitude of turning a blind eye was quite common back then. A very large amount of abuse went unpunished.
Very often, they do. Otherwise there wouldn't be a single Conservative MP left given the age profile of those who voted for them in 1997.
And very often they don't. Look how the tory party has had to shift its position on marriage equality, fox hunting and many of the other retrogressive positions to which it used to cling. It's going to have to change more and quickly in the future with old shibboleths being torn down and trampled underfoot. Europhobia will be one such.
The medium term risk to the Tories is obvious, given that most people settle their political instincts when young. Brexit on top of housing, student finance and the gig economy is creating a whole cohort that will grow up with long-lasting negative memories of Tory rule.
I don’t think that’s true. I think you tend to either be ambivalent, follow your peer group, or be fairly black & white (either which way) when you’re young, as your life experience is limited even if your education might be good.
Many people’s views develop and become more nuanced as they age, as they learn the complexities, greyness and hypocrisies of the world, and they do tend to become more conservative. Firstly, because they have more to conserve and second because they figure out and achieve a level of comfort with the world and their lives that leads them to be more sceptical and less desiring of radical change, and more interested in preserving what’s already there that they value.
Historically that was probably true, but will the Generation Rent and Generation Student Debt have sufficient reason to conserve a societal settlement that screws them? Their cultural values against nativism are not likely to shift either.
I agree, I’m far more worried about the money.
Nevertheless that does tend to be a metropolitan and graduate problem, and, more particularly, a London and the south east problem.
In Manchester, Brighton, Bristol, Oxford and Cambridge, it’s a cultural problem.
I wonder how long it will take London's private-sector "Generation Rent" to realise that Corbyn offers them nothing except more people and fewer houses to buy, with added instabilily to the banking system and higher taxes on individuals and businesses?
Northern Ireland's Public Prosecution Service will this morning announce if any individuals are to be charged in relation to the Bloody Sunday events in Derry in 1972.
Noticeable that the 'free vote' the government promised yesterday was to humour its extreme leavers, allowing them to oppose the government's position against no deal. As soon as government switched to opposing the motion, they denied their remainers the same freedom.
Today we start with the same position - the government will be supporting an extension but allowing its extreme leavers to oppose in a free vote.
It appears that freedom for May runs in one direction only.
The medium term risk to the Tories is obvious, given that most people settle their political instincts when young. Brexit on top of housing, student finance and the gig economy is creating a whole cohort that will grow up with long-lasting negative memories of Tory rule.
I don’t think that’s true. I think you tend to either be ambivalent, follow your peer group, or be fairly black & white (either which way) when you’re young, as your life experience is limited even if your education might be good.
Many people’s views develop and become more nuanced as they age, as they learn the complexities, greyness and hypocrisies of the world, and they do tend to become more conservative. Firstly, because they have more to conserve and second because they figure out and achieve a level of comfort with the world and their lives that leads them to be more sceptical and less desiring of radical change, and more interested in preserving what’s already there that they value.
For sure, I wasn't seeking to argue that views don't change with age - the predominance of Tory pensioners owes only a small part to Tory dominance when they were young. Of course when people pick up responsibilities and become more settled in middle age they trend away from more radical views.
Nevertheless, firstly the late teens and early 20s when political views take shape is the prism through which subsequent events are viewed and, secondly, issues like Brexit and housing are likely to resonate through to middle age (average age of first home ownership is already late 30s and rising)
Many of those voting Leave now were dewy-eyed hopeful europhiles and hippies in the 60s and 70s.
The demographics in the 1975 referendum were reversed, with young people being the most Eurosceptic.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-uk/the-young-people-staring-down-an-endless-brexit For a number of reasons, Brexit has been an invidious political process. But one of the most unsettling has been the mismatch between the generations that voted for Britain’s departure and the generations that will have to bear the consequences. Around seventy per cent of those under the age of twenty-four voted Remain, while sixty per cent of those older than sixty-five voted Leave. “It’s really, really scary to watch politicians who are trying to implement something which the vast majority of us don’t want and have never wanted,” Spirit said. On January 19th, four days after the first defeat of May’s Brexit deal, OFOC celebrated what it called Cross-Over Day, on which the number of new voters entering the electoral register since the referendum should, in theory, have outnumbered the older, pro-Brexit voters who have died in the same period. “It’s quite morbid, but it does raise an interesting discussion about, like, who matters in a democracy,” Spirit told me. “It’s going to be all of the talent, energy, ingenuity of my generation who are going to be having to make sense of Brexit, which they don’t think has ever made any sense for our country.”...
The medium term risk to the Tories is obvious, given that most people settle their political instincts when young. Brexit on top of housing, student finance and the gig economy is creating a whole cohort that will grow up with long-lasting negative memories of Tory rule.
I don’t think that’s true. I think you tend to either be ambivalent, follow your peer group, or be fairly black & white (either which way) when you’re young, as your life experience is limited even if your education might be good.
Many people’s views develop and become more nuanced as they age, as they learn the complexities, greyness and hypocrisies of the world, and they do tend to become more conservative. Firstly, because they have more to conserve and second because they figure out and achieve a level of comfort with the world and their lives that leads them to be more sceptical and less desiring of radical change, and more interested in preserving what’s already there that they value.
I think this is right. When I was younger I hated the Tories in a simplistic kind of way. Now I am older and appreciate the complexities and nuances of the world, I hate the Tories even more, but it has a far stronger grounding in reality.
On trend, I hate Labour even more. Seeing the leader and the cotery of those around him being unapologetic anti-semites, it has a far stronger grounding in reality.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-uk/the-young-people-staring-down-an-endless-brexit For a number of reasons, Brexit has been an invidious political process. But one of the most unsettling has been the mismatch between the generations that voted for Britain’s departure and the generations that will have to bear the consequences. Around seventy per cent of those under the age of twenty-four voted Remain, while sixty per cent of those older than sixty-five voted Leave. “It’s really, really scary to watch politicians who are trying to implement something which the vast majority of us don’t want and have never wanted,” Spirit said. On January 19th, four days after the first defeat of May’s Brexit deal, OFOC celebrated what it called Cross-Over Day, on which the number of new voters entering the electoral registeririt told me. “It’s going to be all of the talent, energy, ingenuity of my generation who are going to be having to make sense of Brexit, which they don’t think has ever made any sense for our country.”...
‘Spirit’ celebrates the death of older people, and it’s the other side who are “the baddies”?
If saying “It’s quite morbid, but it does raise an interesting discussion" is your idea of celebrating, please don't invite me to your birthday party. I think the point raised here, that the pro-Brexit majority will have literally died off by the time it actually happens, and it is the younger generations, who in the main didn't want Brexit, whose lives will be blighted by it, is entirely valid.
But it's also based on a nonsensical premise - that people's views don't change as they age. Very often, they do. Otherwise there wouldn't be a single Conservative MP left given the age profile of those who voted for them in 1997.
Such people remind me of Karl Marx, who came up with all these huge mathematical ideas on how the world would change - and then realised in 1852 that he'd been talking bollocks because people don't act on paper. The 18th Brumaire of Louis Napoleon remains the only really good and alert thing he ever wrote - and it's about his failure.
I think that's true in general but on Brexit I am not so sure. Leavers themselves like to tell us that people haven't changed their mind. I'm approaching the crossover age group myself and I can assure you I am feeling no more Brexity as my remaining hair turns greyer.
Well, somebody is supporting right wing parties, just now, to put them on 46%.
I wonder whether the distribution of Don't Knows is affecting this. I'm not au fait enough with the mechanisms to know, but I've no doubt someone does.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-uk/the-young-people-staring-down-an-endless-brexit For a number of reasons, Brexit has been an invidious political process. But one of the most unsettling has been the mismatch between the generations that voted for Britain’s departure and the generations that will have to bear the consequences. Around seventy per cent of those under the age of twenty-four voted Remain, while sixty per cent of those older than sixty-five voted Leave. “It’s really, really scary to watch politicians who are trying to implement something which the vast majority of us don’t want number of new voters entering the electoral register since the referendum should, in theory, have outnumbered the older, pro-Brexit voters who have died in the same period. “It’s quite morbid, but it does raise an interesting discussion about, like, who matters in a democracy,” Spirit told me. “It’s going to be all of the talent, energy, ingenuity of my generation who are going to be having to make sense of Brexit, which they don’t think has ever made any sense for our country.”...
The medium term risk to the Tories is obvious, given that most people settle their political instincts when young. Brexit on top of housing, student finance and the gig economy is creating a whole cohort that will grow up with long-lasting negative memories of Tory rule.
I don’t think that’s true. I think you tend to either be ambivalent, follow your peer group, or be fairly black & white (either which way) when you’re young, as your life experience is limited even if your education might be good.
Many people’s views develop and become more nuanced as they age, as they learn the complexities, greyness and hypocrisies of the world, and they do tend to become more conservative. Firstly, because they have more to conserve and second because they figure out and achieve a level of comfort with the world and their lives that leads them to be more sceptical and less desiring of radical change, and more interested in preserving what’s already there that they value.
I think this is right. When I was younger I hated the Tories in a simplistic kind of way. Now I am older and appreciate the complexities and nuances of the world, I hate the Tories even more, but it has a far stronger grounding in reality.
On trend, I hate Labour even more. Seeing the leader and the cotery of those around him being unapologetic anti-semites, it has a far stronger grounding in reality.
And there in a nutshell we see why politics and our country is in such a bad way. Everyone hates each other after decades of tribalism.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-uk/the-young-people-staring-down-an-endless-brexit For a number of reasons, Brexit has been an invidious political process. But one of the most unsettling has been the mismatch between the generations that voted for Britain’s departure and the generations that will have to bear the consequences. Around seventy per cent of those under the age of twenty-four voted Remain, while sixty per cent of those older than sixty-five voted Leave. “It’s really, really scary to watch politicians who are trying to implement something which the vast majority of us don’t want and have never wanted,” Spirit said. On January 19th, four days after the first defeat of May’s Brexit deal, OFOC celebrated what it called Cross-Over Day, on which the number of new voters entering the electoral register since the referendum should, in theory, have outnumbered the older, pro-Brexit voters who have died in the same period. “It’s quite morbid, but it does raise an interesting discussion about, like, who matters in a democracy,” Spirit told me. “It’s going to be all of the talent, energy, ingenuity of my generation who are going to be having to make sense of Brexit, which they don’t think has ever made any sense for our country.”...
The medium term risk to the Tories is obvious, given that most people settle their political instincts when young. Brexit on top of housing, student finance and the gig economy is creating a whole cohort that will grow up with long-lasting negative memories of Tory rule.
I don’t think that’s true. I think you tend to either be ambivalent, follow your peer group, or be fairly black & white (either which way) when you’re young, as your life experience is limited even if your education might be good.
Many people’s views develop and become more nuanced as they age, as they learn the complexities, greyness and hypocrisies of the world, and they do tend to become more conservative. Firstly, because they have more to conserve and second because they figure out and achieve a level of comfort with the world and their lives that leads them to be more sceptical and less desiring of radical change, and more interested in preserving what’s already there that they value.
I think this is right. When I was younger I hated the Tories in a simplistic kind of way. Now I am older and appreciate the complexities and nuances of the world, I hate the Tories even more, but it has a far stronger grounding in reality.
To hate is never good and never constructive. It requires a diminution in the rational mind.
PS Lovely and vague about the kind of referendum involved...
It’s drafted to put Corbyn on the spot, because it doesn’t rule out the referendum happening after a general election in which a Labour government decides which Brexit deal to put as the Leave option.
PS Lovely and vague about the kind of referendum involved...
It’s drafted to put Corbyn on the spot, because it doesn’t rule out the referendum happening after a general election in which a Labour government decides which Brexit deal to put as the Leave option.
It's drafted as it is because the People's Vote campaign still hasn't resolved the central flaw in their whole plan - nothing to put against Remain on the ballot paper. And until they answer that it can't happen. They want "Remain" against "remain" ie. the only purpose is to give cover for "revoke".
The other day Barnier commented that the debate showed that many MPs don't seem to grasp that "no deal" does not get a transition period. Less mentioned is his comment that they don't understand that the withdrawal agreement is not the future trading relationship. All those going on about "permanent customs union" or "Norway" or "Switzerland" or whatever are guilty of that. They are all questions for the future trading discussions. They still require the withdrawal agreement to pass. And since the political declaration is not legally binding, its present wording does not determine the future trading relationship.
The medium term risk to the Tories is obvious, given that most people settle their political instincts when young. Brexit on top of housing, student finance and the gig economy is creating a whole cohort that will grow up with long-lasting negative memories of Tory rule.
I don’t think that’s true. I think you tend to either be ambivalent, follow your peer group, or be fairly black & white (either which way) when you’re young, as your life experience is limited even if your education might be good.
Many people’s views develop and become more nuanced as they age, as they learn the complexities, greyness and hypocrisies of the world, and they do tend to become more conservative. Firstly, because they have more to conserve and second because they figure out and achieve a level of comfort with the world and their lives that leads them to be more sceptical and less desiring of radical change, and more interested in preserving what’s already there that they value.
For sure, I wasn't seeking to argue that views don't change with age - the predominance of Tory pensioners owes only a small part to Tory dominance when they were young. Of course when people pick up responsibilities and become more settled in middle age they trend away from more radical views.
Nevertheless, firstly the late teens and early 20s when political views take shape is the prism through which subsequent events are viewed and, secondly, issues like Brexit and housing are likely to resonate through to middle age (average age of first home ownership is already late 30s and rising)
Many of those voting Leave now were dewy-eyed hopeful europhiles and hippies in the 60s and 70s.
The demographics in the 1975 referendum were reversed, with young people being the most Eurosceptic.
Which sort of makes my point, that there is a retention of perspective despite all the life changes of getting older.
A part of the reason for Tory dominance amongst pensioners is the political situation when they were young, with no third party choice and Tory leadership during the war.
PS Lovely and vague about the kind of referendum involved...
It’s drafted to put Corbyn on the spot, because it doesn’t rule out the referendum happening after a general election in which a Labour government decides which Brexit deal to put as the Leave option.
PS Lovely and vague about the kind of referendum involved...
It’s drafted to put Corbyn on the spot, because it doesn’t rule out the referendum happening after a general election in which a Labour government decides which Brexit deal to put as the Leave option.
It's drafted as it is because the People's Vote campaign still hasn't resolved the central flaw in their whole plan - nothing to put against Remain on the ballot paper. And until they answer that it can't happen. They want "Remain" against "remain" ie. the only purpose is to give cover for "revoke".
The other day Barnier commented that the debate showed that many MPs don't seem to grasp that "no deal" does not get a transition period. Less mentioned is his comment that they don't understand that the withdrawal agreement is not the future trading relationship. All those going on about "permanent customs union" or "Norway" or "Switzerland" or whatever are guilty of that. They are all questions for the future trading discussions. They still require the withdrawal agreement to pass. And since the political declaration is not legally binding, its present wording does not determine the future trading relationship.
The medium term risk to the Tories is obvious, given that most people settle their political instincts when young. Brexit on top of housing, student finance and the gig economy is creating a whole cohort that will grow up with long-lasting negative memories of Tory rule.
I don’t think that’s true. I think you tend to either be ambivalent, follow your peer group, or be fairly black & white (either which way) when you’re young, as your life experience is limited even if your education might be good.
Many people’s views develop and become more nuanced as they age, as they learn the complexities, greyness and hypocrisies of the world, and they do tend to become more conservative. Firstly, because they have more to conserve and second because they figure out and achieve a level of comfort with the world and their lives that leads them to be more sceptical and less desiring of radical change, and more interested in preserving what’s already there that they value.
For sure, I wasn't seeking to argue that views don't change with age - the predominance of Tory pensioners owes only a small part to Tory dominance when they were young. Of course when people pick up responsibilities and become more settled in middle age they trend away from more radical views.
Nevertheless, firstly the late teens and early 20s when political views take shape is the prism through which subsequent events are viewed and, secondly, issues like Brexit and housing are likely to resonate through to middle age (average age of first home ownership is already late 30s and rising)
Interesting discussion. I agree with Casino about nuance. I think how one evolves depends partly on peer groups - if you mix with a lot of different types you start to realise there are a range of positions that people you like have adopted, and it seems unlikely that they're all wrong and there is only One True Belief. If you don't, then maybe not, though the internet makes it harder for your immediate peers to be your only influence.
Personally I've gone through three phases - idealistic democratic Eurocommunism (yes, I know) when young, pragmatic Blairite do-what-we-can in middle age, and now Corbynite impatience as I get older - I feel we've been tinkering for too long and society is just getting more divided and unfair and exploited by globalism. But I think a lot about these things, and most older people that I know really don't - they get on with family or other life, retain some basic ideals but also hope that nobody totally screws things up - which opens them to the kind of competent Conservatism that Hammand seems to offer. They view radical chaotic Tories with incredulity, though - despite the current Tory poll ratings, I know absolutely nobody who thinks they inspire confidence.
The statistics for Western airlines look even better (except for Air France). The numbers are distorted up by a relatively high number accidents in Africa and Asia - mostly involving poorly trained crews, flying poorly maintained aircraft, flying to poorly equipped airports, flying often in poor weather.
IIRC the last two fatal accidents of flights originating from Europe were MH17 (shot down over a war zone) and Germanwings 9525 (suicide by pilot), with an honourable mention to AF447 which was pilot error. I honestly can't remember the last fatal accident in Europe caused primarily by a failure of the plane, maybe as far back as Concorde in 2000?
Oh, I know they're safe. But it's also the experience of flying. I think I've only ever been economy (even whilst travelling for business), and as I'm 6'2" it's always a terrible experience. Airports, security, being jammed in next to overweight twattering teenage girls, the toilets, waiting for baggage at the other end, etc, etc.
It's all so hideously unpleasant. And that's coming from someone who likes spending time in tents...
(Cue people boasting about their exclusive first-class lounge experiences.)
With Concorde in 2000 I thought it was debris on the runway that damaged the plane? So not a mechanical failure directly
Yes, the initiation of the event was a metal strip departed from another plane, that pierced a tyre, that hit the fuel tank, that exploded and doomed the plane. Contributing factors were an overweight plane taking off downwind, and a missing shim in the wheel assembly, all human errors.
The acknowledged design weakness with Concorde that contributed to the fatal accident was that the engines were too close to the wheels and so debris thrown up by the wheels could be ingested into them. This engine position was a constraint imposed by Concorde's delta wing geometry.
Very often, they do. Otherwise there wouldn't be a single Conservative MP left given the age profile of those who voted for them in 1997.
And very often they don't. Look how the tory party has had to shift its position on marriage equality, fox hunting and many of the other retrogressive positions to which it used to cling. It's going to have to change more and quickly in the future with old shibboleths being torn down and trampled underfoot. Europhobia will be one such.
The Tory party shifts its position as it requires to get into power. “Power without principle is barren, but principle without power is futile. This is a party of government, and I will lead it as a party of government.” T. Blair.
Very often, they do. Otherwise there wouldn't be a single Conservative MP left given the age profile of those who voted for them in 1997.
And very often they don't. Look how the tory party has had to shift its position on marriage equality, fox hunting and many of the other retrogressive positions to which it used to cling. It's going to have to change more and quickly in the future with old shibboleths being torn down and trampled underfoot. Europhobia will be one such.
Yes, I think so, with Europhobia being a manifestation of a more generalised nativism.
I voted Conservative in 2010, believing that the country needed some financial sanity and that David Cameron had genuinely changed the Conservatives. I won't be doing so again, even though I am one of the economically secure.
Andrew Gwynne MP Verified account @GwynneMP 17h17 hours ago
Before it all hits the fan on social media I want to explain that I won’t be in Parliament tonight to vote. I’m heading to Liverpool as my 7-week old grandson has been transferred from A&E in Manchester to ICU at Alder Hey Children’s Hospital. Please keep him in your thoughts x
I don't want to besmirch my computer by reading the Mail on it so could you give details as to when Steel supposedly knew about Fat Cyril ? Was it before, during or after.
After. He asked him in 1979 and Smith didn't deny but said police took no action. The dwarf decided it was before he was a liberal mp so nothing to do with him. He was happy to sit alongside a nonce in parliament. Doesn't say if he knew about Freud
Don't forget Thorpe.
I generally stick up for politicians of all parties, but I actually feel pretty shocked about Steel, who I've always quite liked. You decide that a one of your close associates is probably a child abuser and you do...nothing? You let him carry on? That's incredible.
It is hard to remember, but precisely that attitude of turning a blind eye was quite common back then. A very large amount of abuse went unpunished.
Its a sad comment on attitudes in the 70s and early 80s. File alongside Thatcher and that MP from Chester, and Greville Janner.
Hardly "attitudes in the 70s and early 80s" when Steel was being a bare-faced liar about it last year on Newsnight....
Sreel's 80. If his memory is anything like mine at the same age his mind is putting glosses on events. In other words they were were better, or he behaved better, than he really did.
Having said that the more that comes out about at least some Liberal politicians and about the the effect of LibDem policies, especially in the Coalition years, the more the regrets I have about working for them in the 60's, 70's and 80's. About 15 years activity I suppose, overall. I did though want a non-socialist, more sympathetic and caring society that the Conservatives offered, and certainly than they offer now.
The medium term risk to the Tories is obvious, given that most people settle their political instincts when young. Brexit on top of housing, student finance and the gig economy is creating a whole cohort that will grow up with long-lasting negative memories of Tory rule.
I don’t think that’s true. I think you tend to either be ambivalent, follow your peer group, or be fairly black & white (either which way) when you’re young, as your life experience is limited even if your education might be good.
Many people’s views develop and become more nuanced as they age, as they learn the complexities, greyness and hypocrisies of the world, and they do tend to become more conservative. Firstly, because they have more to conserve and second because they figure out and achieve a level of comfort with the world and their lives that leads them to be more sceptical and less desiring of radical change, and more interested in preserving what’s already there that they value.
For sure, I wasn't seeking to argue that views don't change with age - the predominance of Tory pensioners owes only a small part to Tory dominance when they were young. Of course when people pick up responsibilities and become more settled in middle age they trend away from more radical views.
Nevertheless, firstly the late teens and early 20s when political views take shape is the prism through which subsequent events are viewed and, secondly, issues like Brexit and housing are likely to resonate through to middle age (average age of first home ownership is already late 30s and rising)
Many of those voting Leave now were dewy-eyed hopeful europhiles and hippies in the 60s and 70s.
The demographics in the 1975 referendum were reversed, with young people being the most Eurosceptic.
Which sort of makes my point, that there is a retention of perspective despite all the life changes of getting older.
A part of the reason for Tory dominance amongst pensioners is the political situation when they were young, with no third party choice and Tory leadership during the war.
The war generation is almost all dead. Most of today's Tory pensioners were voting Liberal and Labour in 1974.
Andrew Gwynne MP Verified account @GwynneMP 17h17 hours ago
Before it all hits the fan on social media I want to explain that I won’t be in Parliament tonight to vote. I’m heading to Liverpool as my 7-week old grandson has been transferred from A&E in Manchester to ICU at Alder Hey Children’s Hospital. Please keep him in your thoughts x
Andrew Gwynne MP Verified account @GwynneMP 17h17 hours ago
Before it all hits the fan on social media I want to explain that I won’t be in Parliament tonight to vote. I’m heading to Liverpool as my 7-week old grandson has been transferred from A&E in Manchester to ICU at Alder Hey Children’s Hospital. Please keep him in your thoughts x
Poor lad.
Ironically, the political fallout has been for his pair, Michael Freer. It would be nice to see journalists tweet as assiduously about the fact that the whip had been paired as they tweeted that he had not voted.
Hold on.. Does that mean parliament doesn’t want the WA, doesn’t want No Deal, and the chances are that parliament might vote to block extension?
The only two course of action from that are a GE or further referendum?
It's not impossible that the government falls before the end of the week, the whips have lost their authority and there's likely to be a number of ministerial resignations no matter what next course of action is taken. A couple more floor-crossers could force an election, as could the DUP ending their C&S agreement.
The medium term risk to the Tories is obvious, given that most people settle their political instincts when young. Brexit on top of housing, student finance and the gig economy is creating a whole cohort that will grow up with long-lasting negative memories of Tory rule.
I don’t think that’s true. I think you tend to either be ambivalent, follow your peer group, or be fairly black & white (either which way) when you’re young, as your life experience is limited even if your education might be good.
Many people’s views develop and become more nuanced as they age, as they learn the complexities, greyness and hypocrisies of the world, and they do tend to become more conservative. Firstly, because they have more to conserve and second because they figure out and achieve a level of comfort with the world and their lives that leads them to be more sceptical and less desiring of radical change, and more interested in preserving what’s already there that they value.
For sure, I wasn't seeking to argue that views don't change with age - the predominance of Tory pensioners owes only a small part to Tory dominance when they were young. Of course when people pick up responsibilities and become more settled in middle age they trend away from more radical views.
Nevertheless, firstly the late teens and early 20s when political views take shape is the prism through which subsequent events are viewed and, secondly, issues like Brexit and housing are likely to resonate through to middle age (average age of first home ownership is already late 30s and rising)
Many of those voting Leave now were dewy-eyed hopeful europhiles and hippies in the 60s and 70s.
The demographics in the 1975 referendum were reversed, with young people being the most Eurosceptic.
Which sort of makes my point, that there is a retention of perspective despite all the life changes of getting older.
A part of the reason for Tory dominance amongst pensioners is the political situation when they were young, with no third party choice and Tory leadership during the war.
Not sure on that. In my northern marginal leave voting (60%/40%)small town there’s been a clear churn of older people coming to the conservatives from other parties. Old person answers door, almost invariably Conservative. That wasn’t the case a decade ago.
Andrew Gwynne MP Verified account @GwynneMP 17h17 hours ago
Before it all hits the fan on social media I want to explain that I won’t be in Parliament tonight to vote. I’m heading to Liverpool as my 7-week old grandson has been transferred from A&E in Manchester to ICU at Alder Hey Children’s Hospital. Please keep him in your thoughts x
That is very upsetting and I wish him, his grandson, and family a successful conclusion
I don't want to besmirch my computer by reading the Mail on it so could you give details as to when Steel supposedly knew about Fat Cyril ? Was it before, during or after.
After. He asked him in 1979 and Smith didn't deny but said police took no action. The dwarf decided it was before he was a liberal mp so nothing to do with him. He was happy to sit alongside a nonce in parliament. Doesn't say if he knew about Freud
Don't forget Thorpe.
I generally stick up for politicians of all parties, but I actually feel pretty shocked about Steel, who I've always quite liked. You decide that a one of your close associates is probably a child abuser and you do...nothing? You let him carry on? That's incredible.
It is hard to remember, but precisely that attitude of turning a blind eye was quite common back then. A very large amount of abuse went unpunished.
Its a sad comment on attitudes in the 70s and early 80s. File alongside Thatcher and that MP from Chester, and Greville Janner.
Hardly "attitudes in the 70s and early 80s" when Steel was being a bare-faced liar about it last year on Newsnight....
Sreel's 80. If his memory is anything like mine at the same age his mind is putting glosses on events. In other words they were were better, or he behaved better, than he really did.
Having said that the more that comes out about at least some Liberal politicians and about the the effect of LibDem policies, especially in the Coalition years, the more the regrets I have about working for them in the 60's, 70's and 80's. About 15 years activity I suppose, overall. I did though want a non-socialist, more sympathetic and caring society that the Conservatives offered, and certainly than they offer now.
It would be nice to give the voters that choice. The current offerings are dismal.
Andrew Gwynne MP Verified account @GwynneMP 17h17 hours ago
Before it all hits the fan on social media I want to explain that I won’t be in Parliament tonight to vote. I’m heading to Liverpool as my 7-week old grandson has been transferred from A&E in Manchester to ICU at Alder Hey Children’s Hospital. Please keep him in your thoughts x
Noticeable that the 'free vote' the government promised yesterday was to humour its extreme leavers, allowing them to oppose the government's position against no deal. As soon as government switched to opposing the motion, they denied their remainers the same freedom.
Today we start with the same position - the government will be supporting an extension but allowing its extreme leavers to oppose in a free vote.
It appears that freedom for May runs in one direction only.
You’re forgetting the motion was amended so it’s reason for the government to change their view
Andrew Gwynne MP Verified account @GwynneMP 17h17 hours ago
Before it all hits the fan on social media I want to explain that I won’t be in Parliament tonight to vote. I’m heading to Liverpool as my 7-week old grandson has been transferred from A&E in Manchester to ICU at Alder Hey Children’s Hospital. Please keep him in your thoughts x
That is very upsetting and I wish him, his grandson, and family a successful conclusion
Noticeable that the 'free vote' the government promised yesterday was to humour its extreme leavers, allowing them to oppose the government's position against no deal. As soon as government switched to opposing the motion, they denied their remainers the same freedom.
Today we start with the same position - the government will be supporting an extension but allowing its extreme leavers to oppose in a free vote.
It appears that freedom for May runs in one direction only.
You’re forgetting the motion was amended so it’s reason for the government to change their view
I am not forgetting it at all.
However, if Tory remainers have ever been given a free vote to oppose the government, that I have forgotten.
Andrew Gwynne MP Verified account @GwynneMP 17h17 hours ago
Before it all hits the fan on social media I want to explain that I won’t be in Parliament tonight to vote. I’m heading to Liverpool as my 7-week old grandson has been transferred from A&E in Manchester to ICU at Alder Hey Children’s Hospital. Please keep him in your thoughts x
Poor lad.
Ironically, the political fallout has been for his pair, Michael Freer. It would be nice to see journalists tweet as assiduously about the fact that the whip had been paired as they tweeted that he had not voted.
Oh wow, sad to hear about the poor boy. Yes, last night was a media frenzy about Freer (among others) having abstained, hopefully (ha ha) the record will be corrected this morning if he was paired with the absent MP.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-uk/the-young-people-staring-down-an-endless-brexit For a number of reasons, Brexit has been an invidious political process. But one of the most unsettling has been the mismatch between the generations that voted for Britain’s departure and the generations that will have to bear the consequences. Around seventy per cent of those under the age of twenty-four voted Remain, while sixty per cent of those older than sixty-five voted Leave. “It’s really, really scary to watch politicians who are trying to implement something which the vast majority of us don’t want and have never wanted,” Spirit said. On January 19th, four days after the first defeat of May’s Brexit deal, OFOC celebrated what it called Cross-Over Day, on which the number of new voters entering the electoral register since the referendum should, in theory, have outnumbered the older, pro-Brexit voters who have died in the same period. “It’s quite morbid, but it does raise an interesting discussion about, like, who matters in a democracy,” Spirit told me. “It’s going to be all of the talent, energy, ingenuity of my generation who are going to be having to make sense of Brexit, which they don’t think has ever made any sense for our country.”...
The medium term risk to the Tories is obvious, given that most people settle their political instincts when young. Brexit on top of housing, student finance and the gig economy is creating a whole cohort that will grow up with long-lasting negative memories of Tory rule.
I don’t think that’s true. I think you tend to either be ambivalent, follow your peer group, or be fairly black & white (either which way) when you’re young, as your life experience is limited even if your education might be good.
Many people’s views develop and become more nuanced as they age, as they learn the complexities, greyness and hypocrisies of the world, and they do tend to become more conservative. Firstly, because they have more to conserve and second because they figure out and achieve a level of comfort with the world and their lives that leads them to be more sceptical and less desiring of radical change, and more interested in preserving what’s already there that they value.
I think this is right. When I was younger I hated the Tories in a simplistic kind of way. Now I am older and appreciate the complexities and nuances of the world, I hate the Tories even more, but it has a far stronger grounding in reality.
To hate is never good and never constructive. It requires a diminution in the rational mind.
Andrew Gwynne MP Verified account @GwynneMP 17h17 hours ago
Before it all hits the fan on social media I want to explain that I won’t be in Parliament tonight to vote. I’m heading to Liverpool as my 7-week old grandson has been transferred from A&E in Manchester to ICU at Alder Hey Children’s Hospital. Please keep him in your thoughts x
What happened to proxy voting?
i think there's a time scale to apply for it..a day or two before. obvouisly in this situation it was an emergency..
I don't want to besmirch my computer by reading the Mail on it so could you give details as to when Steel supposedly knew about Fat Cyril ? Was it before, during or after.
After. He asked him in 1979 and Smith didn't deny but said police took no action. The dwarf decided it was before he was a liberal mp so nothing to do with him. He was happy to sit alongside a nonce in parliament. Doesn't say if he knew about Freud
Its a sad comment on attitudes in the 70s and early 80s. File alongside Thatcher and that MP from Chester, and Greville Janner.
Hardly "attitudes in the 70s and early 80s" when Steel was being a bare-faced liar about it last year on Newsnight....
Sreel's 80. If his memory is anything like mine at the same age his mind is putting glosses on events. In other words they were were better, or he behaved better, than he really did.
Having said that the more that comes out about at least some Liberal politicians and about the the effect of LibDem policies, especially in the Coalition years, the more the regrets I have about working for them in the 60's, 70's and 80's. About 15 years activity I suppose, overall. I did though want a non-socialist, more sympathetic and caring society that the Conservatives offered, and certainly than they offer now.
It would be nice to give the voters that choice. The current offerings are dismal.
The vanilla block-quote strikes again. OKC
Green? Although I don't like their policy on animal experimentation. I've benefited from it and I can't, aah moment, see an alternative.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-uk/the-young-people-staring-down-an-endless-brexit For a number of reasons, Brexit has been an invidious political process. But one of the most unsettling has been the mismatch between the generations that voted for Britain’s departure and the generations that will have to bear the consequences. Around seventy per cent of those under the age of twenty-four voted Remain, while sixty per cent of those older than sixty-five voted Leave. “It’s really, really scary to watch politicians who are trying to implement something which the vast majority of us don’t want and have never wanted,” Spirit said. On January 19th, four days after the first defeat of May’s Brexit deal, OFOC celebrated what it called Cross-Over Day, on which the number of new voters entering the electoral register since the referendum should, in theory, have outnumbered the older, pro-Brexit voters who have died in the same period. “It’s quite morbid, but it does raise an interesting discussion about, like, who matters in a democracy,” Spirit told me. “It’s going to be all of the talent, energy, ingenuity of my generation who are going to be having to make sense of Brexit, which they don’t think has ever made any sense for our country.”...
The medium term risk to the Tories is obvious, given that most people settle their political instincts when young. Brexit on top of housing, student finance and the gig economy is creating a whole cohort that will grow up with long-lasting negative memories of Tory rule.
I don’t think that’s true.
Many people’s views develop and become more nuanced as they age, as they learn the complexities, greyness and hypocrisies of the world, and they do tend to become more conservative. Firstly, because they have more to conserve and second because they figure out and achieve a level of comfort with the world and their lives that leads them to be more sceptical and less desiring of radical change, and more interested in preserving what’s already there that they value.
I think this is right. When I was younger I hated the Tories in a simplistic kind of way. Now I am older and appreciate the complexities and nuances of the world, I hate the Tories even more, but it has a far stronger grounding in reality.
To hate is never good and never constructive. It requires a diminution in the rational mind.
Andrew Gwynne MP Verified account @GwynneMP 17h17 hours ago
Before it all hits the fan on social media I want to explain that I won’t be in Parliament tonight to vote. I’m heading to Liverpool as my 7-week old grandson has been transferred from A&E in Manchester to ICU at Alder Hey Children’s Hospital. Please keep him in your thoughts x
Poor lad.
Ironically, the political fallout has been for his pair, Michael Freer. It would be nice to see journalists tweet as assiduously about the fact that the whip had been paired as they tweeted that he had not voted.
Journalists are all part of this disaster - their coverage of brexit has been as bad as the politicians involved in it
Andrew Gwynne MP Verified account @GwynneMP 17h17 hours ago
Before it all hits the fan on social media I want to explain that I won’t be in Parliament tonight to vote. I’m heading to Liverpool as my 7-week old grandson has been transferred from A&E in Manchester to ICU at Alder Hey Children’s Hospital. Please keep him in your thoughts x
Poor lad.
Ironically, the political fallout has been for his pair, Michael Freer. It would be nice to see journalists tweet as assiduously about the fact that the whip had been paired as they tweeted that he had not voted.
Journalists are all part of this disaster - their coverage of brexit has been as bad as the politicians involved in it
https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-uk/the-young-people-staring-down-an-endless-brexit For a number of reasons, Brexit has been an invidious political process. But one of the most unsettling has been the mismatch between the generations that voted for Britain’s celebrated what it called Cross-Over Day, on which the number of new voters entering the electoral register since the referendum should, in theory, have outnumbered the older, pro-Brexit voters who have died in the same period. “It’s quite morbid, but it does raise an interesting discussion about, like, who matters in a democracy,” Spirit told me. “It’s going to be all of the talent, energy, ingenuity of my generation who are going to be having to make sense of Brexit, which they don’t think has ever made any sense for our country.”...
The medium term risk to the Tories is obvious, given that most people settle their political instincts when young. Brexit on top of housing, student finance and the gig economy is creating a whole cohort that will grow up with long-lasting negative memories of Tory rule.
I don’t think that’s true. I think you tend to either be ambivalent, follow your peer group, or be fairly black & white (either which way) when you’re young, as your life experience is limited even if your education might be good.
Many people’s views develop and become more nuanced as they age, as they learn the complexities, greyness and hypocrisies of the world, and they do tend to become more conservative. Firstly, because they have more to conserve and second because they figure out and achieve a level of comfort with the world and their lives that leads them to be more sceptical and less desiring of radical change, and more interested in preserving what’s already there that they value.
I think this is right. When I was younger I hated the Tories in a simplistic kind of way. Now I am older and appreciate the complexities and nuances of the world, I hate the Tories even more, but it has a far stronger grounding in reality.
To hate is never good and never constructive. It requires a diminution in the rational mind.
Hate destroys those who hate
When settting out for revenge, first dig two graves.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-uk/the-young-people-staring-down-an-endless-brexit For a number of reasons, Brexit has been an invidious political process. But one of the most unsettling has been the mismatch between the generations that voted for Britain’s departure and the generations that will have to bear the consequences. Around seventy per cent of those under the age of twenty-four voted Remain, while sixty per cent of those older than sixty-five voted Leave. “It’s really, really scary to watch politicians who are trying to implement something which the vast majority of us don’t want and have never wanted,” Spirit said. On January 19th, four days after the first defeat of May’s Brexit deal, OFOC celebrated what it called Cross-Over Day, on which the number of new voters entering the electoral register since the referendum should, in theory, have outnumbered the older, pro-Brexit voters who have died in the same period. “It’s quite morbid, but it does raise an interesting discussion about, like, who matters in a democracy,” Spirit told me. “It’s going to be all of the talent, energy, ingenuity of my generation who are going to be having to make sense of Brexit, which they don’t think has ever made any sense for our country.”...
The medium term risk to the Tories is obvious, given that most people settle their political instincts when young. Brexit on top of housing, student finance and the gig economy is creating a whole cohort that will grow up with long-lasting negative memories of Tory rule.
I don’t think that’s true.
Many people’s views develop and become more nuanced as they age, as they learn the complexities, greyness and hypocrisies of the world, and they do tend to become more conservative. Firstly, because they have more to conserve and second because they figure out and achieve a level of comfort with the world and their lives that leads them to be more sceptical and less desiring of radical change, and more interested in preserving what’s already there that they value.
I think this is right. When I was younger I hated the Tories in a simplistic kind of way. Now I am older and appreciate the complexities and nuances of the world, I hate the Tories even more, but it has a far stronger grounding in reality.
To hate is never good and never constructive. It requires a diminution in the rational mind.
Comments
And I hope the weather improves soon as well.
"The cold, hard fact of Brexit is that the hardliners poked and pushed so hard that they eventually rendered their dream unrealisable. Any and all leave voters ought to feel let down and disappointed by their actions. When opportunities for leaving presented themselves, hardliner MPs blocked them off.
In the end, the hard Brexiteer perfectionists bedazzled by cake and unicorns proved to be the obstacle that Brexit itself could not hurdle."
No-one has clearly said what they are for, and, in the circumstances, how that is, realistically, to be achieved, apart perhaps from those who are for a second referendum, but even then I can't recall anyone setting out a realistic timetable.
I agree wholeheartedly with your penultimate paragraph, but it requires someone..... and someone who is likely to have support...... to have the courage to stand up and say so in the House. And they must be able say so persuasively and credibly.
To be fair to Jeremy Corbyn, he did say yesterday that the House should try to come together and find a collective way forward, but, so far as I saw, and I was doing other things last night, that's about as far as it went.
It's all so hideously unpleasant. And that's coming from someone who likes spending time in tents...
(Cue people boasting about their exclusive first-class lounge experiences.)
Incredible.
Many people’s views develop and become more nuanced as they age, as they learn the complexities, greyness and hypocrisies of the world, and they do tend to become more conservative. Firstly, because they have more to conserve and second because they figure out and achieve a level of comfort with the world and their lives that leads them to be more sceptical and less desiring of radical change, and more interested in preserving what’s already there that they value.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphical_timeline_from_Big_Bang_to_Heat_Death
Sorting Brexit somewhere in the Degenerate Era looks on the cards....
Such people remind me of Karl Marx, who came up with all these huge mathematical ideas on how the world would change - and then realised in 1852 that he'd been talking bollocks because people don't act on paper. The 18th Brumaire of Louis Napoleon remains the only really good and alert thing he ever wrote - and it's about his failure.
Travelling business class is of course a lot better, but that requires finding someone to pay for it - my last trip to London the customer paid me for a day extra to travel, as it was cheaper than putting his hand in his pocket for biz class tickets.
When linked with Brexit's complexities, greyness and hypocrisies, that explains why the Tories are now ahead by 8-10%.....
A read of this illustrates the climate at the time:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paedophile_Information_Exchange
Mr. Sandpit, quite. It's legitimate to either believe all crimes must be prosecuted or that reconciliation requires such things to be left in the past, but it's hypocritical to let our convicted terrorists then go chasing after soldiers decades after the events that occurred. Justice can't be just for one side. If prosecuting some people is necessary, prosecuting all suspected (with evidence) of crime is necessary.
It’s as impolite as us using Peking or Bombay.
If a no deal Brexit blights their prospects for a decade, I can’t see the young becoming more enamoured of it, or the Tory party, as they age.
Nevertheless, firstly the late teens and early 20s when political views take shape is the prism through which subsequent events are viewed and, secondly, issues like Brexit and housing are likely to resonate through to middle age (average age of first home ownership is already late 30s and rising)
So I still don't accept the validity of the article. It seems to me little more than confirmation bias and wishful thinking.
Have a good morning.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/13/lord-steel-says-he-believed-cyril-smith-child-abuse-allegations
Then again, they promised a free vote yesterday on no deal, then ended up denying it at the last minute..
In my professional and social circle in London Leavers and Conservatives are either totally absent or very very quiet about it.
Nevertheless that does tend to be a metropolitan and graduate problem, and, more particularly, a London and the south east problem.
In Manchester, Brighton, Bristol, Oxford and Cambridge, it’s a cultural problem.
For some reason, this was thought preferable to simply the “Derry Air”.
Today we start with the same position - the government will be supporting an extension but allowing its extreme leavers to oppose in a free vote.
It appears that freedom for May runs in one direction only.
Does that mean parliament doesn’t want the WA, doesn’t want No Deal, and the chances are that parliament might vote to block extension?
The only two course of action from that are a GE or further referendum?
The other day Barnier commented that the debate showed that many MPs don't seem to grasp that "no deal" does not get a transition period. Less mentioned is his comment that they don't understand that the withdrawal agreement is not the future trading relationship. All those going on about "permanent customs union" or "Norway" or "Switzerland" or whatever are guilty of that. They are all questions for the future trading discussions. They still require the withdrawal agreement to pass. And since the political declaration is not legally binding, its present wording does not determine the future trading relationship.
A part of the reason for Tory dominance amongst pensioners is the political situation when they were young, with no third party choice and Tory leadership during the war.
- Ratify the WA
- Revoke Article 50
Personally I've gone through three phases - idealistic democratic Eurocommunism (yes, I know) when young, pragmatic Blairite do-what-we-can in middle age, and now Corbynite impatience as I get older - I feel we've been tinkering for too long and society is just getting more divided and unfair and exploited by globalism. But I think a lot about these things, and most older people that I know really don't - they get on with family or other life, retain some basic ideals but also hope that nobody totally screws things up - which opens them to the kind of competent Conservatism that Hammand seems to offer. They view radical chaotic Tories with incredulity, though - despite the current Tory poll ratings, I know absolutely nobody who thinks they inspire confidence.
May will call a GE soon imho.
Have been saying this for a while now.
(and yes I know it probably solves nothing, but it is our system's escape valve).
“Power without principle is barren, but principle without power is futile. This is a party of government, and I will lead it as a party of government.” T. Blair.
I voted Conservative in 2010, believing that the country needed some financial sanity and that David Cameron had genuinely changed the Conservatives. I won't be doing so again, even though I am one of the economically secure.
Andrew Gwynne MP
Verified account @GwynneMP
17h17 hours ago
Before it all hits the fan on social media I want to explain that I won’t be in Parliament tonight to vote. I’m heading to Liverpool as my 7-week old grandson has been transferred from A&E in Manchester to ICU at Alder Hey Children’s Hospital. Please keep him in your thoughts x
There, in a nutshell.....
Having said that the more that comes out about at least some Liberal politicians and about the the effect of LibDem policies, especially in the Coalition years, the more the regrets I have about working for them in the 60's, 70's and 80's.
About 15 years activity I suppose, overall. I did though want a non-socialist, more sympathetic and caring society that the Conservatives offered, and certainly than they offer now.
Ironically, the political fallout has been for his pair, Michael Freer. It would be nice to see journalists tweet as assiduously about the fact that the whip had been paired as they tweeted that he had not voted.
It does pale politics into insignificance
However, if Tory remainers have ever been given a free vote to oppose the government, that I have forgotten.
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1106102152852844544?s=20
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1106102643301199872?s=20
Right, work to do.
https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1106107615174672385
https://twitter.com/tompeck/status/1106108006108942336
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/flkou3sc4v/Internal_190313_Brexit_w.pdf