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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Vince Cable stepping down as LD leader. Layla Moran the openin

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  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Sandpit said:

    AndyJS said:

    Giles Fraser has defected to the SDP.

    Are the SDP preparing to stand in local elections I wonder? Not a bad idea if the TIG don’t have a party, or maybe they will act as the political vehicle for the TIG types in the EU elections?
    The SDP are more like non-Batten UKIP. The polar opposite of TIG.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Sandpit said:

    AndyJS said:

    Giles Fraser has defected to the SDP.

    Are the SDP preparing to stand in local elections I wonder? Not a bad idea if the TIG don’t have a party, or maybe they will act as the political vehicle for the TIG types in the EU elections?
    The SDP are now a drop-in centre for homeless kippers who don't hate Muslims enough and who aren't on board with the next Nigel Farage vanity project.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879

    Our family has great affection for New Zealand and especially Christchurch where our eldest son emigrated to 15 years ago and we have visited several times. Though our eldest son now lives in Vancouver he retains ties with friends and ex work colleagues there.

    This attack is evil in it's purest form and we need as a Country, especially in light of Brexit, to make a concerted effort to bring all our communities together in total condemnation of all intolerance

    I posted this on my facebook page this morning and know PB forum will join in our condolences and sympathy to all Kiwis

    To all Kiwis

    We have woken up to the horrific attacks in Christchurch and just cannot believe it. Tears are shed for that beautiful City, it's people and the whole Country. Such hatred is beyond belief and we must alll stand against the bigotted and twisted minds of those who think like this. May the Good Lord comfort all those affected and our prayers are for all Kiwis everywhere.

    I stand with you Big G. I have family in Christchurch and in Nelson at the top of the South. The Kiwis - all of them - are our brothers and sisters. The footage today only emphasises that. We must stand firmly and ceaselessly against all those who seek to divide.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    I thought air crash investigations were usually conducted in secret so they could reach conclusions without prejudging things ? There seems to be a lot of interim information being leaked
    If that’s a totally factual statement (and it looks like it is) then it’s fine.

    It’s jumping to conclusions or motives that they don’t do.
    Yes but can’t be easy with all the speculation that will arise
  • StreeterStreeter Posts: 684

    kle4 said:

    The Sun says:

    IT is surely now obvious to Tory Brexiteers that defeating Theresa May’s deal again will be a disastrous act of self-harm.

    Some are waking up to it. Too many are holding out for something better.

    It’s not coming.

    Mrs May’s shock victories last night leave her battered agreement as still somehow the only viable option, even if she has been humiliatingly reduced to asking the EU for a short delay.

    Kill it again next week and that’s it.

    The PM will be ordered to beg a long delay, swallowing any conditions Brussels wants to impose.

    Remainer MPs will take back control, as they failed to do last night by only two votes, and Tory support will collapse.


    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8641594/theresa-may-brexit-deal-self-harm/

    Will even the most Bone-headed ERG members get it?

    If there is indeed an MV3 it could only pass with some Labour votes. Right now the government should be putting energy into courting them. If it is, it’s invisible.
    It seems to be focusing all its energies on begging to the DUP on the not unreasonable grounds that that will likely get a bunch more Tory votes too and maybe even a few labour ones. But they should be doing both or going full soft Brexit to seek loads of labour votes since given ERG holdouts even if the DUP climb down, it's not just some labour voted they need, its potentially a couple dozen at least.
    I don't think the ERG holdouts can be got below 30. They're mad as hell and some of them have been far too committal to climb down now.
    I agree with that.
    Excellent.
  • kingbongokingbongo Posts: 393
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Cole,



    But on this occasion the MPs asked the public to decide and pledged to implement the result. They lied knowingly, and that to the electorate is both an insult and a challenge. For me, it's a matter of principle now, rather than party politics or even our future with the EU.

    "It's the ERG's fault, it's labour playing party politics" don't really matter. It's the fact they lied and assumed they'd get away with it because we're stupid that rankles.

    If you watched QT last night from Ealing (yeah, that Ealing, you know, the one with three Labour MPs - hardly the hotbed of Leave....) then there was very considerable anger at the games being played by politicians.

    And Labour is going to be in the firing line. People KNOW that Labour is playing games over Brexit. This is not a win for them - as their slide in the polls shows.

    It doesn't have to be that way. There is a huge opportunity for Corbyn to come across as the statesman. He can make the cheap political point that the Conservative Party is "hopelessly split". He can make the cheap political point that May's Deal is shit. But then he could say these two have combined to give us a country that is struggling to find a way through Brexit. This Government has brought us to the cliff edge. However, in the national interest, he will not oppose a call for MV3. And so as to bring an end to the damaging uncertainty the UK faces, to save jobs, to save the economy, to stop small factions having a stranglehold over the government of this country, he will instruct his party to abstain on MV3. If May's Deal falls, if Brexit fails, it will not be down to the Labour Party.......
    People seem stuck in the notion that voting against the deal is just a political game and they will come good. It’s rejected on principle, people believe it is what is bad for the country. They are not playing games and are unlikely to change.
    I might have some sympathy for that view if Labour had a coherently different offering on Brexit.

    They don't.
    You’ll make no progress if you continue to be dismissive.
    The arguments are all about the Political Declaration - if you want Norway+, Ruritania- ,or anything else the Withdrawal Agreement will still need to be passed as it is the only transition plan the EU will agree to. This is the crazy thing - Britain's politicians don't seem to understand the process - for 'burn it all down' types like Baker and Francois it's fine, but for Labour, SNP and the Lib Dems to wilfully ignore the reality and oppose the only deal on offer is despicable. The only options are May Deal, No Deal (thus no transition) or Revoke.

    GET ON WITH IT UK!!!
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    AndyJS said:

    Giles Fraser has defected to the SDP.

    From whom?
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,340
    kingbongo said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Cole,



    But on this occasion the MPs asked the public to decide and pledged to implement the result. They lied knowingly, and that to the electorate is both an insult and a challenge. For me, it's a matter of principle now, rather than party politics or even our future with the EU.

    "It's the ERG's fault, it's labour playing party politics" don't really matter. It's the fact they lied and assumed they'd get away with it because we're stupid that rankles.

    If you watched QT last night from Ealing (yeah, oing to be in the firing line. People KNOW that Labour is playing games over Brexit. This is not a win for them - as their slide in the polls shows.

    It doesn't have to be that way. There is a huge opportunity for Corbyn to come across as the statesman. He can make the cheap political point that the Conservative Party is "hopelessly split". He can make the cheap political point that May's Deal is shit. But then he could say these two have combined to give us a country that is struggling to find a way through Brexit. This Government has brought us to the cliff edge. However, in the national interest, he will not oppose a call for MV3. And so as to bring an end to the damaging uncertainty the UK faces, to save jobs, to save the economy, to stop small factions having a stranglehold over the government of this country, he will instruct his party to abstain on MV3. If May's Deal falls, if Brexit fails, it will not be down to the Labour Party.......
    People seem stuck in the notion that voting against the deal is just a political game and they will come good. It’s rejected on principle, people believe it is what is bad for the country. They are not playing games and are unlikely to change.
    I might have some sympathy for that view if Labour had a coherently different offering on Brexit.

    They don't.
    You’ll make no progress if you continue to be dismissive.
    The arguments are all about the Political Declaration - if you want Norway+, Ruritania- ,or anything else the Withdrawal Agreement will still need to be passed as it is the only transition plan the EU will agree to. This is the crazy thing - Britain's politicians don't seem to understand the process - for 'burn it all down' types like Baker and Francois it's fine, but for Labour, SNP and the Lib Dems to wilfully ignore the reality and oppose the only deal on offer is despicable. The only options are May Deal, No Deal (thus no transition) or Revoke.

    GET ON WITH IT UK!!!
    Get on with revoking?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    Sandpit said:

    AndyJS said:

    Giles Fraser has defected to the SDP.

    Are the SDP preparing to stand in local elections I wonder? Not a bad idea if the TIG don’t have a party, or maybe they will act as the political vehicle for the TIG types in the EU elections?
    The SDP are more like non-Batten UKIP. The polar opposite of TIG.
    So they're Batten-like non-UKIP?!
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    On topic, other than novelty (which is time limited) what does Moran bring or do which is different to Cable and will effect a change of LDs course? I’ve been unable to get a feel for that from the LDs posting here.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,870

    AndyJS said:

    Giles Fraser has defected to the SDP.

    From whom?
    The Church of England?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    AndyJS said:

    Giles Fraser has defected to the SDP.

    Are the SDP preparing to stand in local elections I wonder? Not a bad idea if the TIG don’t have a party, or maybe they will act as the political vehicle for the TIG types in the EU elections?
    The SDP are more like non-Batten UKIP. The polar opposite of TIG.
    So they're Batten-like non-UKIP?!
    Rod Liddle has also joined SDP.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Horrible, horrible news from New Zealand. Like many others on here, I have a lot of family down there and have visited quite a few times. It’s a beautiful place, devoid of all pretensions; peaceful, quiet, friendly; somewhere to escape to. Because of our close links and the history, this feels like an attack on us, too. All love and solidarity to all Kiwis everywhere. And sincerest condolences to the families and friends of all the victims.

    When I first heard the radio say 'news from Christchurch,' I assumed there had been another earthquake. Because of all countries in the world, New Zealand is about the last one you would associate with mass shootings.
    I lived just across Hagely Park from the mosque when I worked at Christchurch Public Hospital.

    There was a shooting spree in Cathedral Square shortly after I arrived. NZ has quite a high rate of gun ownership, though typically hunting rather than automatic weapons. Quite a lot of drugs and gangs too. You always see the seamy underside of a place in an Emergency Dept. Lovely country and city on the whole though, and best climate of any place I have ever lived.
    That’s interesting.

    The perception i get of NZ from here is a sleepy idyllic rugged/rural ideal.
    Up to a point that is true, but like Australia it is very urbanised, with all the problems of city life anywhere. This film set in South Auckland shows some of the violent gang culture, but it could even be found in quite small towns.

    https://youtu.be/N0-Q3ChKcfE

    The South Island is very different to the North Island in that regard

    Much less Polynesian certainly, and when I was there Christchurch was more Anglo Saxon than any other place I have lived, hardly any celts even. Nonetheless Christchurch had some vicious bikie gangs that would attack each other fairly frequently, and quite an active drug culture, mostly abused prescription drugs, a problem for us in the Emergency Dept.

    Absolutely. Nowhere is trouble free. But on a sliding scale I’d put the South Island of New Zealand a very long way down the problem league table. It’s probably the isolation that causes many of the problems that do exist - see also the West Coast.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Cole,

    MPs don't have to obey public opinion. They often don't.

    But on this occasion the MPs asked the public to decide and pledged to implement the result. They lied knowingly, and that to the electorate is both an insult and a challenge. For me, it's a matter of principle now, rather than party politics or even our future with the EU.

    "It's the ERG's fault, it's labour playing party politics" don't really matter. It's the fact they lied and assumed they'd get away with it because we're stupid that rankles.

    If you watched QT last night from Ealing (yeah, that Ealing, you know, the one with three Labour MPs - hardly the hotbed of Leave....) then there was very considerable anger at the games being played by politicians.

    And Labour is going to be in the firing line. People KNOW that Labour is playing games over Brexit. This is not a win for them - as their slide in the polls shows.

    It doesn't have to be that way. There is a huge opportunity for Corbyn to come across as the statesman. He can make the cheap political point that the Conservative Party is "hopelessly split". He can make the cheap political point that May's Deal is shit. But then he could say these two have combined to give us a country that is struggling to find a way through Brexit. This Government has brought us to the cliff edge. However, in the national interest, he will not oppose a call for MV3. And so as to bring an end to the damaging uncertainty the UK faces, to save jobs, to save the economy, to stop small factions having a stranglehold over the government of this country, he will instruct his party to abstain on MV3. If May's Deal falls, if Brexit fails, it will not be down to the Labour Party.......
    People seem stuck in the notion that voting against the deal is just a political game and they will come good. It’s rejected on principle, people believe it is what is bad for the country. They are not playing games and are unlikely to change.
    I might have some sympathy for that view if Labour had a coherently different offering on Brexit.

    They don't.
    If it is no different, then why doesnt May support Corbyns plan?
    Corbyn's plan is different - but where it does differ, it makes Brexit incoherent. It is the worst of all worlds.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Charles said:

    I thought air crash investigations were usually conducted in secret so they could reach conclusions without prejudging things ? There seems to be a lot of interim information being leaked
    If that’s a totally factual statement (and it looks like it is) then it’s fine.

    It’s jumping to conclusions or motives that they don’t do.
    I think "unusual" and "doomed" make it very hard to claim it is purely factual.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    AndyJS said:

    Giles Fraser has defected to the SDP.

    Are the SDP preparing to stand in local elections I wonder? Not a bad idea if the TIG don’t have a party, or maybe they will act as the political vehicle for the TIG types in the EU elections?
    The SDP are more like non-Batten UKIP. The polar opposite of TIG.
    So they're Batten-like non-UKIP?!
    Rod Liddle has also joined SDP.
    Right. Rod Liddle and Giles Fraser, and the guy from UKIP who never seemed quite as crazy as the rest of them.

    Not sure it's a game changer.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    Sandpit said:

    AndyJS said:

    Giles Fraser has defected to the SDP.

    Are the SDP preparing to stand in local elections I wonder? Not a bad idea if the TIG don’t have a party, or maybe they will act as the political vehicle for the TIG types in the EU elections?
    Pretty sure they are standing but they are a rabidly pro Brexit economically centre left bunch. Not the university educated liberals and pragmatists TIG attracts
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Horrible, horrible news from New Zealand. Like many others on here, I have a lot of family down there and have visited quite a few times. It’s a beautiful place, devoid of all pretensions; peaceful, quiet, friendly; somewhere to escape to. Because of our close links and the history, this feels like an attack on us, too. All love and solidarity to all Kiwis everywhere. And sincerest condolences to the families and friends of all the victims.

    When I first heard the radio say 'news from Christchurch,' I assumed there had been another earthquake. Because of all countries in the world, New Zealand is about the last one you would associate with mass shootings.
    I lived just across Hagely Park from the mosque when I worked at Christchurch Public Hospital.

    There was a shooting spree in Cathedral Square shortly after I arrived. NZ has quite a high rate of gun ownership, though typically hunting rather than automatic weapons. Quite a lot of drugs and gangs too. You always see the seamy underside of a place in an Emergency Dept. Lovely country and city on the whole though, and best climate of any place I have ever lived.
    That’s interesting.

    The perception i get of NZ from here is a sleepy idyllic rugged/rural ideal.
    Up to a point that is true, but like Australia it is very urbanised, with all the problems of city life anywhere. This film set in South Auckland shows some of the violent gang culture, but it could even be found in quite small towns.

    https://youtu.be/N0-Q3ChKcfE

    The South Island is very different to the North Island in that regard

    Much less Polynesian certainly, and when I was there Christchurch was more Anglo Saxon than any other place I have lived, hardly any celts even. Nonetheless Christchurch had some vicious bikie gangs that would attack each other fairly frequently, and quite an active drug culture, mostly abused prescription drugs, a problem for us in the Emergency Dept.
    Out of interest, how long ago was that? Places change, sometimes remarkably quickly.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    I thought air crash investigations were usually conducted in secret so they could reach conclusions without prejudging things ? There seems to be a lot of interim information being leaked
    If that’s a totally factual statement (and it looks like it is) then it’s fine.

    It’s jumping to conclusions or motives that they don’t do.
    Yes but can’t be easy with all the speculation that will arise
    It's hardly possible to prevent that.

    There are, for example, publicly available details of air traffic control data which show the unusual flight profile just prior to the crash. People are going to speculate.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    Freggles said:

    Not the university educated liberals and pragmatists TIG attracts

    Political snobs you mean?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043

    Sandpit said:

    AndyJS said:

    Giles Fraser has defected to the SDP.

    Are the SDP preparing to stand in local elections I wonder? Not a bad idea if the TIG don’t have a party, or maybe they will act as the political vehicle for the TIG types in the EU elections?
    The SDP are now a drop-in centre for homeless kippers who don't hate Muslims enough and who aren't on board with the next Nigel Farage vanity project.
    Could become the Blue Labour party that Miliband almost went for (see Lord Glansman). Family, flag, community, but for NHS and welfare state.

    Given FPTP it will almost certainly fail, but there's a gap in the market, that's for sure.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sandpit said:

    AndyJS said:

    Giles Fraser has defected to the SDP.

    Are the SDP preparing to stand in local elections I wonder? Not a bad idea if the TIG don’t have a party, or maybe they will act as the political vehicle for the TIG types in the EU elections?
    The SDP are more like non-Batten UKIP. The polar opposite of TIG.
    Ah okay, they’ve changed a bit from the olden days then, when they were full of Labour members who couldn’t stand the anti Semitic communists.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    matt said:

    On topic, other than novelty (which is time limited) what does Moran bring or do which is different to Cable and will effect a change of LDs course? I’ve been unable to get a feel for that from the LDs posting here.

    She doesn't need an afternoon nap?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,749
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    AndyJS said:

    Giles Fraser has defected to the SDP.

    Are the SDP preparing to stand in local elections I wonder? Not a bad idea if the TIG don’t have a party, or maybe they will act as the political vehicle for the TIG types in the EU elections?
    The SDP are more like non-Batten UKIP. The polar opposite of TIG.
    Ah okay, they’ve changed a bit from the olden days then, when they were full of Labour members who couldn’t stand the anti Semitic communists.
    Can't remember all the details of the original SDP flowering, but pretty sure antisemitism had bugger all to do with it.
  • NEW THREAD

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,071
    matt said:

    On topic, other than novelty (which is time limited) what does Moran bring or do which is different to Cable and will effect a change of LDs course? I’ve been unable to get a feel for that from the LDs posting here.

    A clean break from the Coalition years, which apart from Cables lethargy is the major drag on the party. I was and am a supporter of what the LDS did in 2010-15, with the exception of nearly everything Cable touched such as tuition fees.

    Lamb is the best in terms of policy and direction, but is unlikely to stand again. Moran is the best of the rest.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Jonathan said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Cole,

    MPs don't have to obey public opinion. They often don't.

    But on this occasion the MPs asked the public to decide and pledged to implement the result. They lied knowingly, and that to the electorate is both an insult and a challenge. For me, it's a matter of principle now, rather than party politics or even our future with the EU.

    "It's the ERG's fault, it's labour playing party politics" don't really matter. It's the fact they lied and assumed they'd get away with it because we're stupid that rankles.

    If you watched QT last night from Ealing (yeah, that Ealing, you know, the one with three Labour MPs - hardly the hotbed of Leave....) then there was very considerable anger at the games being played by politicians.
    https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/1106336166201176064
    Angry man ranting on the telly. Not a good look for Leave. We need a route to agreement, this is not it.
    I think he spoke fairly well (by Question Time standards). I will never understand the concept that remaining is better than the deal though (clearly if you're Eurosceptic it isn't true). There are too many zealots who only wish for no deal or only wish for a people's vote than cannot see the bigger picture of a compromise to bring the country closer together.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,071
    matt said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Horrible, horrible news from New Zealand. Like many others on here, I have a lot of family down there and have visited quite a few times. It’s a beautiful place, devoid of all pretensions; peaceful, quiet, friendly; somewhere to escape to. Because of our close links and the history, this feels like an attack on us, too. All love and solidarity to all Kiwis everywhere. And sincerest condolences to the families and friends of all the victims.

    When I first heard the radio say 'news from Christchurch,' I assumed there had been another earthquake. Because of all countries in the world, New Zealand is about the last one you would associate with mass shootings.
    I lived just across Hagely Park from the mosque when I worked at Christchurch Public Hospital.

    There was a shooting spree in Cathedral Square shortly after I arrived. NZ has quite a high rate of gun ownership, though typically hunting rather than automatic weapons. Quite a lot of drugs and gangs too. You always see the seamy underside of a place in an Emergency Dept. Lovely country and city on the whole though, and best climate of any place I have ever lived.
    That’s interesting.

    The perception i get of NZ from here is a sleepy idyllic rugged/rural ideal.
    Up to a point that is true, but like Australia it is very urbanised, with all the problems of city life anywhere. This film set in South Auckland shows some of the violent gang culture, but it could even be found in quite small towns.

    https://youtu.be/N0-Q3ChKcfE

    The South Island is very different to the North Island in that regard

    Much less Polynesian certainly, and when I was there Christchurch was more Anglo Saxon than any other place I have lived, hardly any celts even. Nonetheless Christchurch had some vicious bikie gangs that would attack each other fairly frequently, and quite an active drug culture, mostly abused prescription drugs, a problem for us in the Emergency Dept.
    Out of interest, how long ago was that? Places change, sometimes remarkably quickly.
    1990
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited March 2019
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Charles said:

    I thought air crash investigations were usually conducted in secret so they could reach conclusions without prejudging things ? There seems to be a lot of interim information being leaked
    If that’s a totally factual statement (and it looks like it is) then it’s fine.

    It’s jumping to conclusions or motives that they don’t do.
    I think "unusual" and "doomed" make it very hard to claim it is purely factual.
    Unusual is factual; doomed is Reuters spin. The investigators would not have used the latter term, for sure, in any official briefing. As mentioned below, there's also a lot of publicly-available info, and these things tend to be leaky too. Constant updates keep a lid on that and deter 99% of the conspiracists [nothing to be done for the 1%, as 9/11 showed].

    Investigations are as transparent as possible. This maintains trust, and makes sure experts and authorities around the world can respond how they see fit.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766

    CD13 said:

    Mr Cole,

    MPs don't have to obey public opinion. They often don't.

    But on this occasion the MPs asked the public to decide and pledged to implement the result. They lied knowingly, and that to the electorate is both an insult and a challenge. For me, it's a matter of principle now, rather than party politics or even our future with the EU.

    "It's the ERG's fault, it's labour playing party politics" don't really matter. It's the fact they lied and assumed they'd get away with it because we're stupid that rankles.

    I wouldn't say MP's lied. The world moved on.

    What did Supermac say was the great problem in politics "event, dear boy, events!'
    Not all lied, but quite a few. Either that or they just misjudged it. The ones that continue to lie are the ones that say there is/was a mandate for a no-deal Brexit/leaving without a deal. There was a mandate to leave with a deal. Whilst I would prefer it had never come to pass, and I think TMay's deal is pretty crap, this is what people voted for - leaving with the best deal we can negotiate. The liars will try and wriggle off the hook when it is obvious we were better off before, but there we are!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    kingbongo said:

    The arguments are all about the Political Declaration - if you want Norway+, Ruritania- ,or anything else the Withdrawal Agreement will still need to be passed as it is the only transition plan the EU will agree to. This is the crazy thing - Britain's politicians don't seem to understand the process - for 'burn it all down' types like Baker and Francois it's fine, but for Labour, SNP and the Lib Dems to wilfully ignore the reality and oppose the only deal on offer is despicable. The only options are May Deal, No Deal (thus no transition) or Revoke.

    GET ON WITH IT UK!!!

    Indeed so. All negotiated exits are via the WA therefore if we wish to leave the EU in a non-chaotic manner we must sign the WA. And we will be, it is a case of when not if.

    Despicable of Labour not to support Mrs May? I hardly think so. This is a Tory mess. Labour have no particular duty to help them out of it.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    kinabalu said:

    kingbongo said:

    The arguments are all about the Political Declaration - if you want Norway+, Ruritania- ,or anything else the Withdrawal Agreement will still need to be passed as it is the only transition plan the EU will agree to. This is the crazy thing - Britain's politicians don't seem to understand the process - for 'burn it all down' types like Baker and Francois it's fine, but for Labour, SNP and the Lib Dems to wilfully ignore the reality and oppose the only deal on offer is despicable. The only options are May Deal, No Deal (thus no transition) or Revoke.

    GET ON WITH IT UK!!!

    Indeed so. All negotiated exits are via the WA therefore if we wish to leave the EU in a non-chaotic manner we must sign the WA. And we will be, it is a case of when not if.

    Despicable of Labour not to support Mrs May? I hardly think so. This is a Tory mess. Labour have no particular duty to help them out of it.
    Well, other than their MPs all stood on a manifesto saying they would implement Brexit.....
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,520
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Oh for crying out loud people are still whinging about being embarrassed? As a nation we really do need to grow up and allow ourselves to have serious and divisive political debates without worrying that satirists and diplomats get chuckles out of it.

    Better that unfortunate aspect than the implied alternative, where we dont confront our serious political divisions because what might others think, oh no. Diplomatic relations recover quickly once resolution is finally occurred, to do otherwise would be stupid of them.

    "Oh for crying out loud, are leavers still whinging about the EU?" the sane amongst us could have asked for decades.

    The problem is not that our political debate is divided: it is that our politics is borken. There are massive issues facing the country going forward, and for over two years our political system has been obsessing with the EU.

    Brexit has consumed our politics, and not to our advantage.

    And yes, it is embarrassing.
    The point was politics gets embarrassing sometimes and that seems more worrying to people than it being broken. After all they lead with hiw embarrassing it is. We do need to get past this EU issue. We also need to stop being worried to tackle issues because its embarrassing. It is not either or - I too think we should remain now, but is just silly how many people open with being embarrassed as a reason to do or not to things.

    If revoke is in our best interests we should do it even though its humiliating. It leaving is on our best interests we should do it even though others laugh at us. I dont know why people prioritise their embarrassment.

    And it is prioritised as people dont stop banging on about it and what others think.
    I've said many times that the politics is borken - it's one of my common memes on here. You may have noticed me frequently say things like: "Brexit has consumed politics," in the past.

    But it's gone beyond that. It's not embarrassing. As that's the change in my position, it is what I led with.

    It's also important, as when other countries start feeling that way about us: that we're an embarrassment, that we can't do anything right, yet alone do the right thing, then it hurts us.

    And it's also important as it shows that the Breixteers who screeched and screamed about how Britain was bigger and better were utterly wrong: their disastrous course is leading us to become Little Britain.

    So it matters. And it should matter to you.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    Our family has great affection for New Zealand and especially Christchurch where our eldest son emigrated to 15 years ago and we have visited several times. Though our eldest son now lives in Vancouver he retains ties with friends and ex work colleagues there.

    This attack is evil in it's purest form and we need as a Country, especially in light of Brexit, to make a concerted effort to bring all our communities together in total condemnation of all intolerance

    I posted this on my facebook page this morning and know PB forum will join in our condolences and sympathy to all Kiwis

    To all Kiwis

    We have woken up to the horrific attacks in Christchurch and just cannot believe it. Tears are shed for that beautiful City, it's people and the whole Country. Such hatred is beyond belief and we must alll stand against the bigotted and twisted minds of those who think like this. May the Good Lord comfort all those affected and our prayers are for all Kiwis everywhere.

    Thank you Big G. Bless you.
  • kingbongokingbongo Posts: 393
    kinabalu said:

    kingbongo said:

    The arguments are all about the Political Declaration - if you want Norway+, Ruritania- ,or anything else the Withdrawal Agreement will still need to be passed as it is the only transition plan the EU will agree to. This is the crazy thing - Britain's politicians don't seem to understand the process - for 'burn it all down' types like Baker and Francois it's fine, but for Labour, SNP and the Lib Dems to wilfully ignore the reality and oppose the only deal on offer is despicable. The only options are May Deal, No Deal (thus no transition) or Revoke.

    GET ON WITH IT UK!!!

    Indeed so. All negotiated exits are via the WA therefore if we wish to leave the EU in a non-chaotic manner we must sign the WA. And we will be, it is a case of when not if.

    Despicable of Labour not to support Mrs May? I hardly think so. This is a Tory mess. Labour have no particular duty to help them out of it.
    straight back to 'tory mess' nonsense - this is what has to stop. I live in Denmark and will be fine whatever happens but this petty party nonsense is indeed despicable. May needs to offer a GE following ratification of the Withdrawal Agreement and set the political declaration to one side to be picked up by the incoming government, whoever it is.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    The Labour MPs who voted against the Benn amendment should be deselected .

    I can understand they might want to support the deal but to not allow a backup plan in case it goes down again is unforgivable .

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575

    F1: hmm, Raikkonen 6th in both practice sessions so far.

    Sounds like a promising young driver for Alfa Romeo.

    Might be of interest to you, MD:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/47527705
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