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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » What could really drive LAB voters away is Corbyn ignoring the

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited April 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » What could really drive LAB voters away is Corbyn ignoring the vast majority of them on Brexit

Next week’s Labours ruling national executive committee will be faced with demands to include a clear commitment to a confirmatory public vote on Brexit in its European election manifesto. This is something that has not appeared in draft leaflets that have been circulated within the party and have aroused fury.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    edited April 2019
    First of at least two, like the 2016 referendum.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Second, like Labour.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,952
    May's stringing out of Brexit until the Euro-elections - thereby causing a monumental rift in Labour - is looking like a master stroke.......
  • mr-claypolemr-claypole Posts: 217
    Should not be a tough call save two men -Jeremus- stand in the way.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Hmm, I'm not so sure. Weasel words have sufficed so far. Admittedly there's some drifting away from Labour as a result of this, but it's manageable and I don't see why it can't remain so - after all, Labour MEPs will not be the ones who have to choose to call a referendum or not, so why shouldn't weasel words still suffice?
  • TrèsDifficileTrèsDifficile Posts: 1,729
    edited April 2019
    Just got this video as a sponsored ad on facebook

    “Today I’m being born. What will the world I grow up in look like?”
    Choose your future. European elections 23-26 May
    https://www.facebook.com/europeanparliament/videos/416115432521831/

    ETA youtube version https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3tErFvAgag
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    In more splitting the vote news.
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/apr/26/extinction-rebellion-protesters-to-stand-in-european-elections
    Could be that the Greens lose out on a seat or two if they gain traction.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    Hmm, I'm not so sure. Weasel words have sufficed so far. Admittedly there's some drifting away from Labour as a result of this, but it's manageable and I don't see why it can't remain so - after all, Labour MEPs will not be the ones who have to choose to call a referendum or not, so why shouldn't weasel words still suffice?

    The Labour vote share has suffered in polls since Brexit day passed. Why is that?

    It could be Labour Leavers annoyed that Brexit hasn't happened.

    It could be Labour Remainers frustrated that Labour won't fall in line with the petition-signing crowd.

    I tend to feel that the polarisation over Brexit has accelerated recently with the passing of Brexit day. While fence-sitting previously served Labour well, as they allowed everyone to believe Labour was on their side, now I think that strategy is failing, as everyone doubts whether Labour agrees with them.

    The point of decision has been reached for Labour.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,545

    May's stringing out of Brexit until the Euro-elections - thereby causing a monumental rift in Labour - is looking like a master stroke.......

    The experience she has gained creating a monumental rift in the Conservative Party will no doubt be helpful.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    Hmm, I'm not so sure. Weasel words have sufficed so far. Admittedly there's some drifting away from Labour as a result of this, but it's manageable and I don't see why it can't remain so - after all, Labour MEPs will not be the ones who have to choose to call a referendum or not, so why shouldn't weasel words still suffice?

    The Labour vote share has suffered in polls since Brexit day passed. Why is that?

    It could be Labour Leavers annoyed that Brexit hasn't happened.

    It could be Labour Remainers frustrated that Labour won't fall in line with the petition-signing crowd.

    I tend to feel that the polarisation over Brexit has accelerated recently with the passing of Brexit day. While fence-sitting previously served Labour well, as they allowed everyone to believe Labour was on their side, now I think that strategy is failing, as everyone doubts whether Labour agrees with them.

    The point of decision has been reached for Labour.
    I don't think the point of decision has been reached. What happens if they don't make a decision now?

    Conversely, if they do decide to go for a referendum for the purposes of the Euro elections, then it would be impossible for them not to vote for one in the Commons, but the leadership cabal seems very determined not to do so (at least for now).

    Weasel words it will be, I'm sure.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    In more splitting the vote news.
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/apr/26/extinction-rebellion-protesters-to-stand-in-european-elections
    Could be that the Greens lose out on a seat or two if they gain traction.

    Would be funny if they did stand, and split the vote such that the Greens, LDs, CUKs and themselves all fall short in a number of regions.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    Sandpit said:

    In more splitting the vote news.
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/apr/26/extinction-rebellion-protesters-to-stand-in-european-elections
    Could be that the Greens lose out on a seat or two if they gain traction.

    Would be funny if they did stand, and split the vote such that the Greens, LDs, CUKs and themselves all fall short in a number of regions.
    isn't it too late, after today?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    "Jeremy Corbyn boycotts Trump state dinner"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48070983

    He'd probably prefer to be dining with terrorists or anti-Semites ...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited April 2019
    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    In more splitting the vote news.
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/apr/26/extinction-rebellion-protesters-to-stand-in-european-elections
    Could be that the Greens lose out on a seat or two if they gain traction.

    Would be funny if they did stand, and split the vote such that the Greens, LDs, CUKs and themselves all fall short in a number of regions.
    isn't it too late, after today?
    Close of nominations? Hopefully we’ll soon (Monday) get a full and comprehensive SoPN from each regional Returning Officer. There could well be betting implications in some regions, of a number of independents standing.

    AIUI the anti-capitalist protest movement don’t have a registered party, and Tommy Robinson is standing by himself against UKIP. There could well be others we don’t know about. One more known unknown is Lord Buckethead, who could save his deposit as a proper ‘f*** the lot of you’ vote.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,545

    Hmm, I'm not so sure. Weasel words have sufficed so far. Admittedly there's some drifting away from Labour as a result of this, but it's manageable and I don't see why it can't remain so - after all, Labour MEPs will not be the ones who have to choose to call a referendum or not, so why shouldn't weasel words still suffice?

    The Labour vote share has suffered in polls since Brexit day passed. Why is that?

    It could be Labour Leavers annoyed that Brexit hasn't happened.

    It could be Labour Remainers frustrated that Labour won't fall in line with the petition-signing crowd.

    I tend to feel that the polarisation over Brexit has accelerated recently with the passing of Brexit day. While fence-sitting previously served Labour well, as they allowed everyone to believe Labour was on their side, now I think that strategy is failing, as everyone doubts whether Labour agrees with them.

    The point of decision has been reached for Labour.
    I don't think the point of decision has been reached. What happens if they don't make a decision now?

    Conversely, if they do decide to go for a referendum for the purposes of the Euro elections, then it would be impossible for them not to vote for one in the Commons, but the leadership cabal seems very determined not to do so (at least for now).

    Weasel words it will be, I'm sure.
    I think Labour will make a qualified commitment to a referendum. Which will be interpreted as weaselly in some quarters.

    I understand that Labour's stance in the talks with the government has been that it will be very hard for any deal to get through parliament unless it includes a confirmatory vote. Which is not quite the same as saying that Labour is in favour of a confirmatory vote, but it is not far away from that position.
  • "Jeremy Corbyn boycotts Trump state dinner"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48070983

    He'd probably prefer to be dining with terrorists or anti-Semites ...

    Jeremy Corbyn is not an antisemite. Peter Oborne doesn't think he is: https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/tom-bower-book-dangerous-hero-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leader-truth.

    Stop violating the comments policy please.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Broughton, welcome to PB.

    However, you appear to have misread Mr. Jessop's post. He didn't assert Corbyn is an anti-Semite.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited April 2019

    I think Labour will make a qualified commitment to a referendum. Which will be interpreted as weaselly in some quarters.

    I understand that Labour's stance in the talks with the government has been that it will be very hard for any deal to get through parliament unless it includes a confirmatory vote. Which is not quite the same as saying that Labour is in favour of a confirmatory vote, but it is not far away from that position.

    What on earth is a 'confirmatory vote' when there's a clock ticking? It's meaningless gobbledegook, designed to avoid stating what the options might be even if any vote is ever held.

    But yes, I think you are right. They'll come up with some such nonsense.
  • Harris_TweedHarris_Tweed Posts: 1,300

    Hmm, I'm not so sure. Weasel words have sufficed so far. Admittedly there's some drifting away from Labour as a result of this, but it's manageable and I don't see why it can't remain so - after all, Labour MEPs will not be the ones who have to choose to call a referendum or not, so why shouldn't weasel words still suffice?

    The Labour vote share has suffered in polls since Brexit day passed. Why is that?

    It could be Labour Leavers annoyed that Brexit hasn't happened.

    It could be Labour Remainers frustrated that Labour won't fall in line with the petition-signing crowd.

    I tend to feel that the polarisation over Brexit has accelerated recently with the passing of Brexit day. While fence-sitting previously served Labour well, as they allowed everyone to believe Labour was on their side, now I think that strategy is failing, as everyone doubts whether Labour agrees with them.

    The point of decision has been reached for Labour.
    I don't think the point of decision has been reached. What happens if they don't make a decision now?

    Conversely, if they do decide to go for a referendum for the purposes of the Euro elections, then it would be impossible for them not to vote for one in the Commons, but the leadership cabal seems very determined not to do so (at least for now).

    Weasel words it will be, I'm sure.
    Yeah, may as well stick with the conference motion for now. It's too late for Labour to win back the votes of hardcore remainers in this election, and there are considerable downsides (ie hands thus tied in the Commons, where it will probably - if perversely - pay dividends for them to keep playing silly buggers in the face of Tory self-destruction).

    Bit of a fail not to mention the referendum part of the policy in the leaflet though. Practised ambiguity only works if it's, erm, practised.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    I don't know how typical I am, but I am simply going to vote in the way that sends the strongest pro-EU signal. If Labour firms up its commitment to another vote - I'll probably plump for them. If not and the Lib Dems do well in the locals then they might well be the best slot for the ballot slip. If Labour remain ambiguous and the Lib Dems don't look like they are motoring then it's either Green or Change UK. The lacklustre launch is putting me off the last of those - and not contesting the locals undermines their appeal to me at the moment. But there are still some weeks ahead of us.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,742

    Mr. Broughton, welcome to PB.

    However, you appear to have misread Mr. Jessop's post. He didn't assert Corbyn is an anti-Semite.

    Very true.

    I wonder if a lot of Leavers would enjoy dining with xenophobes and racists?
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    "Jeremy Corbyn boycotts Trump state dinner"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48070983

    He'd probably prefer to be dining with terrorists or anti-Semites ...

    Jeremy Corbyn is not an antisemite. Peter Oborne doesn't think he is: https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/tom-bower-book-dangerous-hero-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leader-truth.

    Stop violating the comments policy please.
    I didn't know there was a comments policy, nor that you were in charge of it.

    Corbyn is antisemitic to his fingertips, and the appeal to authority is generally recognised as a fallacy.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Divvie, Corbyn's on record referring to Hamas and Hezbollah as his 'friends'. That's different to broad-brushing half the country with an insult.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    Hmm, I'm not so sure. Weasel words have sufficed so far. Admittedly there's some drifting away from Labour as a result of this, but it's manageable and I don't see why it can't remain so - after all, Labour MEPs will not be the ones who have to choose to call a referendum or not, so why shouldn't weasel words still suffice?

    The Labour vote share has suffered in polls since Brexit day passed. Why is that?

    It could be Labour Leavers annoyed that Brexit hasn't happened.

    It could be Labour Remainers frustrated that Labour won't fall in line with the petition-signing crowd.

    I tend to feel that the polarisation over Brexit has accelerated recently with the passing of Brexit day. While fence-sitting previously served Labour well, as they allowed everyone to believe Labour was on their side, now I think that strategy is failing, as everyone doubts whether Labour agrees with them.

    The point of decision has been reached for Labour.
    I don't think the point of decision has been reached. What happens if they don't make a decision now?

    Conversely, if they do decide to go for a referendum for the purposes of the Euro elections, then it would be impossible for them not to vote for one in the Commons, but the leadership cabal seems very determined not to do so (at least for now).

    Weasel words it will be, I'm sure.
    Yes, that's quite likely, but I think it will start to do them real damage now in a way that it didn't previously.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    I don't know how typical I am, but I am simply going to vote in the way that sends the strongest pro-EU signal. If Labour firms up its commitment to another vote - I'll probably plump for them. If not and the Lib Dems do well in the locals then they might well be the best slot for the ballot slip. If Labour remain ambiguous and the Lib Dems don't look like they are motoring then it's either Green or Change UK. The lacklustre launch is putting me off the last of those - and not contesting the locals undermines their appeal to me at the moment. But there are still some weeks ahead of us.

    I am voting LD in the locals and probably Change UK in the European elections if they happen. My vote for Change UK is partly driven by Brexit, partly because I look favourably on the MPs who left their party to start this venture. I cannot vote Tory (Brexit) or Labour (Corbyn) at this time for varying reasons and I would never vote UKIP or Brexit party! Paradoxically, If Tony Blair was leader of the Labour party at the moment or someone with equivalent policies I would not just vote for Labour but go out and help them! I am a former Tory voter and member and am disgusted at Brexit, it is the biggest own goal in my lifetime as a country.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Ishmael_Z said:

    "Jeremy Corbyn boycotts Trump state dinner"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48070983

    He'd probably prefer to be dining with terrorists or anti-Semites ...

    Jeremy Corbyn is not an antisemite. Peter Oborne doesn't think he is: https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/tom-bower-book-dangerous-hero-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leader-truth.

    Stop violating the comments policy please.
    I didn't know there was a comments policy, nor that you were in charge of it.

    Corbyn is antisemitic to his fingertips, and the appeal to authority is generally recognised as a fallacy.
    PB's only comment policy is do not talk about PB's comment policy. :o
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Ishmael_Z said:

    "Jeremy Corbyn boycotts Trump state dinner"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48070983

    He'd probably prefer to be dining with terrorists or anti-Semites ...

    Jeremy Corbyn is not an antisemite. Peter Oborne doesn't think he is: https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/tom-bower-book-dangerous-hero-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leader-truth.

    Stop violating the comments policy please.
    I didn't know there was a comments policy, nor that you were in charge of it.

    Corbyn is antisemitic to his fingertips, and the appeal to authority is generally recognised as a fallacy.
    Corbyn is not antisemitic. Antisemites don't attend passover ceremonies with Jews.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/03/jeremy-corbyn-passover-jewdas-good-news

  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,870

    "Jeremy Corbyn boycotts Trump state dinner"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48070983

    He'd probably prefer to be dining with terrorists or anti-Semites ...

    Jeremy Corbyn is not an antisemite. Peter Oborne doesn't think he is: https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/tom-bower-book-dangerous-hero-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leader-truth.

    Stop violating the comments policy please.
    Appointing yourself enforcer of an undefined "comments policy" in your very first post must be some sort of record.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    Scott_P said:
    Er, well Trumpton really is not the 'leader of the free world'. I can think of few people less qualified to that claim. He can barely lead his own country.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810

    "Jeremy Corbyn boycotts Trump state dinner"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48070983

    He'd probably prefer to be dining with terrorists or anti-Semites ...

    Jeremy Corbyn is not an antisemite. Peter Oborne doesn't think he is: https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/tom-bower-book-dangerous-hero-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leader-truth.

    Stop violating the comments policy please.
    Appointing yourself enforcer of an undefined "comments policy" in your very first post must be some sort of record.
    It's not his first post, I've seen him post before.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Ishmael_Z said:

    "Jeremy Corbyn boycotts Trump state dinner"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48070983

    He'd probably prefer to be dining with terrorists or anti-Semites ...

    Jeremy Corbyn is not an antisemite. Peter Oborne doesn't think he is: https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/tom-bower-book-dangerous-hero-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leader-truth.

    Stop violating the comments policy please.
    I didn't know there was a comments policy, nor that you were in charge of it.

    Corbyn is antisemitic to his fingertips, and the appeal to authority is generally recognised as a fallacy.
    Corbyn is not antisemitic. Antisemites don't attend passover ceremonies with Jews.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/03/jeremy-corbyn-passover-jewdas-good-news

    Yes they do, when they wish to disguise their antisemitism. One may smile and smile and be a villain, and not just in Denmark.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    _Anazina_ said:

    "Jeremy Corbyn boycotts Trump state dinner"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48070983

    He'd probably prefer to be dining with terrorists or anti-Semites ...

    Jeremy Corbyn is not an antisemite. Peter Oborne doesn't think he is: https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/tom-bower-book-dangerous-hero-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leader-truth.

    Stop violating the comments policy please.
    Appointing yourself enforcer of an undefined "comments policy" in your very first post must be some sort of record.
    It's not his first post, I've seen him post before.
    Said without irony... :D
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Ishmael_Z said:

    "Jeremy Corbyn boycotts Trump state dinner"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48070983

    He'd probably prefer to be dining with terrorists or anti-Semites ...

    Jeremy Corbyn is not an antisemite. Peter Oborne doesn't think he is: https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/tom-bower-book-dangerous-hero-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leader-truth.

    Stop violating the comments policy please.
    I didn't know there was a comments policy, nor that you were in charge of it.

    Corbyn is antisemitic to his fingertips, and the appeal to authority is generally recognised as a fallacy.
    Corbyn is not antisemitic. Antisemites don't attend passover ceremonies with Jews.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/03/jeremy-corbyn-passover-jewdas-good-news

    Jewdas - lol

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517

    "Jeremy Corbyn boycotts Trump state dinner"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48070983

    He'd probably prefer to be dining with terrorists or anti-Semites ...

    Jeremy Corbyn is not an antisemite. Peter Oborne doesn't think he is: https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/tom-bower-book-dangerous-hero-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leader-truth.

    Stop violating the comments policy please.
    1) You should re-read my comment.
    2) Can you provide a link to the comments policy you think I'm violating? ;)
    3) Peter Oborne is not judge and jury on such things.

    And welcome to PB!

    I must admit, ,if Jeremy doesn't like having dinner with climate change deniers, then it must make family does with his brother quite difficult ...
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    _Anazina_ said:

    Scott_P said:
    Er, well Trumpton really is not the 'leader of the free world'. I can think of few people less qualified to that claim. He can barely lead his own country.
    Corbyn is willing to meet with President Assad, who has torn up any number of international treaties, especially those relating to the use of chemical weapons and war crimes, but not with Trump. Whatever the latter’s failings - and I really don’t see the need for a state visit this year - it shows odd judgment by Corbyn.

    He will have to boycott a lot of other visits by other leaders if misogyny and racism and non-compliance with treaties are the criteria by which they are to be judged. None of the people he has chosen to meet would pass muster according to those criteria.

    One wonders what level of hypocrisy will prove too much for Corbyn supporters.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Ishmael_Z said:

    "Jeremy Corbyn boycotts Trump state dinner"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48070983

    He'd probably prefer to be dining with terrorists or anti-Semites ...

    Jeremy Corbyn is not an antisemite. Peter Oborne doesn't think he is: https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/tom-bower-book-dangerous-hero-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leader-truth.

    Stop violating the comments policy please.
    I didn't know there was a comments policy, nor that you were in charge of it.

    Corbyn is antisemitic to his fingertips, and the appeal to authority is generally recognised as a fallacy.
    I think the polling shows the majority of people think he is too?
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited April 2019

    Ishmael_Z said:

    "Jeremy Corbyn boycotts Trump state dinner"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48070983

    He'd probably prefer to be dining with terrorists or anti-Semites ...

    Jeremy Corbyn is not an antisemite. Peter Oborne doesn't think he is: https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/tom-bower-book-dangerous-hero-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leader-truth.

    Stop violating the comments policy please.
    I didn't know there was a comments policy, nor that you were in charge of it.

    Corbyn is antisemitic to his fingertips, and the appeal to authority is generally recognised as a fallacy.
    Corbyn is not antisemitic. Antisemites don't attend passover ceremonies with Jews.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/03/jeremy-corbyn-passover-jewdas-good-news

    A Third Seder is NOT a Passover ceremony, It is an entirely political event created in the early 20th century for the discussion of the extremist politics of the age. It’s why people who say Corbyn wants to take us back to the 1970s are not entirely right...

    And there were plenty of Jewish Kapos in the concentration camps who did the Nazi’s dirty work for them.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Cyclefree said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    Scott_P said:
    Er, well Trumpton really is not the 'leader of the free world'. I can think of few people less qualified to that claim. He can barely lead his own country.
    Corbyn is willing to meet with President Assad, who has torn up any number of international treaties, especially those relating to the use of chemical weapons and war crimes, but not with Trump. Whatever the latter’s failings - and I really don’t see the need for a state visit this year - it shows odd judgment by Corbyn.

    He will have to boycott a lot of other visits by other leaders if misogyny and racism and non-compliance with treaties are the criteria by which they are to be judged. None of the people he has chosen to meet would pass muster according to those criteria.

    One wonders what level of hypocrisy will prove too much for Corbyn supporters.
    No level i'm afraid
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Ishmael_Z said:

    "Jeremy Corbyn boycotts Trump state dinner"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48070983

    He'd probably prefer to be dining with terrorists or anti-Semites ...

    Jeremy Corbyn is not an antisemite. Peter Oborne doesn't think he is: https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/tom-bower-book-dangerous-hero-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leader-truth.

    Stop violating the comments policy please.
    I didn't know there was a comments policy, nor that you were in charge of it.

    Corbyn is antisemitic to his fingertips, and the appeal to authority is generally recognised as a fallacy.
    Corbyn is not antisemitic. Antisemites don't attend passover ceremonies with Jews.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/03/jeremy-corbyn-passover-jewdas-good-news

    A Third Seder is NOT a Passover ceremony, It is an entirely political event created in the 30s for extremist politics. It’s why people who say Corbyn wants to take us back to the 1970s are not entirely right...

    And there were plenty of Jewish Kapos in the concentration camps who did the Nazi’s dirty work for them.
    Jewish Kapos did not have much choice in the matter. It was either that or be killed. And many were killed once they’d done their tasks or chose to kill themselves.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,911

    Ishmael_Z said:

    "Jeremy Corbyn boycotts Trump state dinner"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48070983

    He'd probably prefer to be dining with terrorists or anti-Semites ...

    Jeremy Corbyn is not an antisemite. Peter Oborne doesn't think he is: https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/tom-bower-book-dangerous-hero-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leader-truth.

    Stop violating the comments policy please.
    I didn't know there was a comments policy, nor that you were in charge of it.

    Corbyn is antisemitic to his fingertips, and the appeal to authority is generally recognised as a fallacy.
    Corbyn is not antisemitic. Antisemites don't attend passover ceremonies with Jews.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/03/jeremy-corbyn-passover-jewdas-good-news

    A Third Seder is NOT a Passover ceremony, It is an entirely political event created in the 30s for extremist politics. It’s why people who say Corbyn wants to take us back to the 1970s are not entirely right...

    And there were plenty of Jewish Kapos in the concentration camps who did the Nazi’s dirty work for them.
    You are Ken Livingston and I claim my £5.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    Cyclefree said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    "Jeremy Corbyn boycotts Trump state dinner"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48070983

    He'd probably prefer to be dining with terrorists or anti-Semites ...

    Jeremy Corbyn is not an antisemite. Peter Oborne doesn't think he is: https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/tom-bower-book-dangerous-hero-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leader-truth.

    Stop violating the comments policy please.
    I didn't know there was a comments policy, nor that you were in charge of it.

    Corbyn is antisemitic to his fingertips, and the appeal to authority is generally recognised as a fallacy.
    Corbyn is not antisemitic. Antisemites don't attend passover ceremonies with Jews.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/03/jeremy-corbyn-passover-jewdas-good-news

    A Third Seder is NOT a Passover ceremony, It is an entirely political event created in the 30s for extremist politics. It’s why people who say Corbyn wants to take us back to the 1970s are not entirely right...

    And there were plenty of Jewish Kapos in the concentration camps who did the Nazi’s dirty work for them.
    Jewish Kapos did not have much choice in the matter. It was either that or be killed. And many were killed once they’d done their tasks or chose to kill themselves.
    Willingness or not is not the point, the point is they are fodder.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "George Eaton, the deputy editor of the New Statesman, was asked not to come into the office following the fallout of his interview with Roger Scruton “to let stuff die down”, The Londoner understands."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/londoners-diary/the-londoner-ns-deputy-editor-in-cooler-over-scruton-a4127381.html
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,702

    "Jeremy Corbyn boycotts Trump state dinner"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48070983

    So does Vince
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,837
    edited April 2019
    I hardly think 'weasel words' a fair or apt description for Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition's highly rational reluctance to go full on with Ref2 (Remain) unless and until there is a general election and they calculate with a high degree of confidence that such a pivot will materially increase their chances of bringing about the thing that they are there to achieve above all else - the replacement of a Conservative government with a Labour one.

    I also do not think that 'Jeremy Corbyn is an antisemite' (in the sense of being prejudiced against Jews because they are Jews, or representing any sort of threat to the welfare of Jews in Britain) is an assertion that stands up to scrutiny. Please note that this is not to deny that Labour have an issue with this particular strain of racism, or to downplay its importance, and is not to say that I share 100% his views on the Israel Palestine conflict.

    And having delivered myself of that - well, I'd better get the dinner on or things are going to slide to rack and ruin tonight.
  • TrèsDifficileTrèsDifficile Posts: 1,729
    _Anazina_ said:

    "Jeremy Corbyn boycotts Trump state dinner"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48070983

    He'd probably prefer to be dining with terrorists or anti-Semites ...

    Jeremy Corbyn is not an antisemite. Peter Oborne doesn't think he is: https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/tom-bower-book-dangerous-hero-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leader-truth.

    Stop violating the comments policy please.
    Appointing yourself enforcer of an undefined "comments policy" in your very first post must be some sort of record.
    It's not his first post, I've seen him post before.
    http://politicalbetting.vanillacommunity.com/profile/JoeJamesBroughton
  • TrèsDifficileTrèsDifficile Posts: 1,729

    _Anazina_ said:

    "Jeremy Corbyn boycotts Trump state dinner"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48070983

    He'd probably prefer to be dining with terrorists or anti-Semites ...

    Jeremy Corbyn is not an antisemite. Peter Oborne doesn't think he is: https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/tom-bower-book-dangerous-hero-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leader-truth.

    Stop violating the comments policy please.
    Appointing yourself enforcer of an undefined "comments policy" in your very first post must be some sort of record.
    It's not his first post, I've seen him post before.
    http://politicalbetting.vanillacommunity.com/profile/JoeJamesBroughton
    He seemed more of a May fan then, though
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688

    Hmm, I'm not so sure. Weasel words have sufficed so far. Admittedly there's some drifting away from Labour as a result of this, but it's manageable and I don't see why it can't remain so - after all, Labour MEPs will not be the ones who have to choose to call a referendum or not, so why shouldn't weasel words still suffice?

    The Labour vote share has suffered in polls since Brexit day passed. Why is that?

    It could be Labour Leavers annoyed that Brexit hasn't happened.

    It could be Labour Remainers frustrated that Labour won't fall in line with the petition-signing crowd.

    I tend to feel that the polarisation over Brexit has accelerated recently with the passing of Brexit day. While fence-sitting previously served Labour well, as they allowed everyone to believe Labour was on their side, now I think that strategy is failing, as everyone doubts whether Labour agrees with them.

    The point of decision has been reached for Labour.
    I don't think the point of decision has been reached. What happens if they don't make a decision now?

    Conversely, if they do decide to go for a referendum for the purposes of the Euro elections, then it would be impossible for them not to vote for one in the Commons, but the leadership cabal seems very determined not to do so (at least for now).

    Weasel words it will be, I'm sure.
    It's too late for Labour to win back the votes of hardcore remainers in this election,
    I don't like to say that something's rubbish but that is of the unadulterated type.

    A week is a long time in politics. A day is a long time in Brexit politics. A month is an eternity.

    One clear decisive move by the NEC on Tuesday to back a People's Vote and there will be a flood of remainers, like me, for Labour.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Hmm, I'm not so sure. Weasel words have sufficed so far. Admittedly there's some drifting away from Labour as a result of this, but it's manageable and I don't see why it can't remain so - after all, Labour MEPs will not be the ones who have to choose to call a referendum or not, so why shouldn't weasel words still suffice?

    The Labour vote share has suffered in polls since Brexit day passed. Why is that?

    It could be Labour Leavers annoyed that Brexit hasn't happened.

    It could be Labour Remainers frustrated that Labour won't fall in line with the petition-signing crowd.

    I tend to feel that the polarisation over Brexit has accelerated recently with the passing of Brexit day. While fence-sitting previously served Labour well, as they allowed everyone to believe Labour was on their side, now I think that strategy is failing, as everyone doubts whether Labour agrees with them.

    The point of decision has been reached for Labour.
    I don't think the point of decision has been reached. What happens if they don't make a decision now?

    Conversely, if they do decide to go for a referendum for the purposes of the Euro elections, then it would be impossible for them not to vote for one in the Commons, but the leadership cabal seems very determined not to do so (at least for now).

    Weasel words it will be, I'm sure.
    It's too late for Labour to win back the votes of hardcore remainers in this election,
    I don't like to say that something's rubbish but that is of the unadulterated type.

    A week is a long time in politics. A day is a long time in Brexit politics. A month is an eternity.

    One clear decisive move by the NEC on Tuesday to back a People's Vote and there will be a flood of remainers, like me, for Labour.
    Only if Labour say, unambiguously, that Remain will be a choice on the ballot paper.

    A “confirmatory vote” is ambiguous on the point.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,230

    "Jeremy Corbyn boycotts Trump state dinner"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48070983

    He'd probably prefer to be dining with terrorists or anti-Semites ...

    Jeremy Corbyn is not an antisemite. Peter Oborne doesn't think he is: https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/tom-bower-book-dangerous-hero-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leader-truth.

    Stop violating the comments policy please.
    Whether Jeremy Corbyn is an anti-Semite is one thing. But @JosiasJessop stated that "he'd probably prefer to be dining with...anti-Semites", which - given Corbyn's past preferences - is fair comment.

    [There's a comments policy????]
  • steve_garnersteve_garner Posts: 1,019
    AndyJS said:

    "George Eaton, the deputy editor of the New Statesman, was asked not to come into the office following the fallout of his interview with Roger Scruton “to let stuff die down”, The Londoner understands."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/londoners-diary/the-londoner-ns-deputy-editor-in-cooler-over-scruton-a4127381.html

    Can't imagine too many rushing to be interviewed by Eaton when he next shows up for work. At the very least interviewees will insist on taking a copy of the tape before leaving the building. The right on rush to judgement by such as Tugendhat and Mercer hardly suggested they are Cabinet material.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    I don't know how typical I am, but I am simply going to vote in the way that sends the strongest pro-EU signal. If Labour firms up its commitment to another vote - I'll probably plump for them. If not and the Lib Dems do well in the locals then they might well be the best slot for the ballot slip. If Labour remain ambiguous and the Lib Dems don't look like they are motoring then it's either Green or Change UK. The lacklustre launch is putting me off the last of those - and not contesting the locals undermines their appeal to me at the moment. But there are still some weeks ahead of us.

    I am voting LD in the locals and probably Change UK in the European elections if they happen. My vote for Change UK is partly driven by Brexit, partly because I look favourably on the MPs who left their party to start this venture. I cannot vote Tory (Brexit) or Labour (Corbyn) at this time for varying reasons and I would never vote UKIP or Brexit party! Paradoxically, If Tony Blair was leader of the Labour party at the moment or someone with equivalent policies I would not just vote for Labour but go out and help them! I am a former Tory voter and member and am disgusted at Brexit, it is the biggest own goal in my lifetime as a country.
    I quite like the Change UK concept. They have yet to implement it very well though.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    AndyJS said:

    "George Eaton, the deputy editor of the New Statesman, was asked not to come into the office following the fallout of his interview with Roger Scruton “to let stuff die down”, The Londoner understands."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/londoners-diary/the-londoner-ns-deputy-editor-in-cooler-over-scruton-a4127381.html

    Can't imagine too many rushing to be interviewed by Eaton when he next shows up for work. At the very least interviewees will insist on taking a copy of the tape before leaving the building. The right on rush to judgement by such as Tugendhat and Mercer hardly suggested they are Cabinet material.
    Once Scruton was fired, Eaton posted a photo to his private Instagram account of himself drinking a bottle of champagne. Eaton has since deleted and apologised for the post.

    How unprofessional.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,837

    So does Vince

    Bercow too.

    And it is specifically the dinner in honour of the ghastly creature that he is boycotting. He would not refuse to meet him for 'business' purposes.

    TBH if Corbyn had NOT taken this position I would have been wretchedly disappointed in him.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    I don't know how typical I am, but I am simply going to vote in the way that sends the strongest pro-EU signal. If Labour firms up its commitment to another vote - I'll probably plump for them. If not and the Lib Dems do well in the locals then they might well be the best slot for the ballot slip. If Labour remain ambiguous and the Lib Dems don't look like they are motoring then it's either Green or Change UK. The lacklustre launch is putting me off the last of those - and not contesting the locals undermines their appeal to me at the moment. But there are still some weeks ahead of us.

    I am voting LD in the locals and probably Change UK in the European elections if they happen. My vote for Change UK is partly driven by Brexit, partly because I look favourably on the MPs who left their party to start this venture. I cannot vote Tory (Brexit) or Labour (Corbyn) at this time for varying reasons and I would never vote UKIP or Brexit party! Paradoxically, If Tony Blair was leader of the Labour party at the moment or someone with equivalent policies I would not just vote for Labour but go out and help them! I am a former Tory voter and member and am disgusted at Brexit, it is the biggest own goal in my lifetime as a country.
    I quite like the Change UK concept. They have yet to implement it very well though.
    Change UK have a concept?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,049

    "Jeremy Corbyn boycotts Trump state dinner"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48070983

    He'd probably prefer to be dining with terrorists or anti-Semites ...

    There is a distinction to be made between a State visit and a business visit.

    Though the queen has a longstanding tradition of having State Dinners for a variety of egocentric tyrants, so what is one more?

    Sit Trump between Charles and Harry, and see how long he lasts.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,753
    I tend to agree with those downthread who make the point that creative ambiguity will continue to be Labour's policy. Brexit is the Tories' toy, most Labour supporters just don't care that much and think that there are more important things to worry about. They are probably right although the die in the ditch efforts of the remainers have made something of a constitutional crisis out of this relatively modest event.

    Whilst they might therefore lose some of the fanatics at the margins I suspect that the majority of Labour supporters will either vote to give the Tories a good kicking or not bother. I think the prospects for a major split in Labour on this are overstated in the thread header.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,049
    RobD said:

    I don't know how typical I am, but I am simply going to vote in the way that sends the strongest pro-EU signal. If Labour firms up its commitment to another vote - I'll probably plump for them. If not and the Lib Dems do well in the locals then they might well be the best slot for the ballot slip. If Labour remain ambiguous and the Lib Dems don't look like they are motoring then it's either Green or Change UK. The lacklustre launch is putting me off the last of those - and not contesting the locals undermines their appeal to me at the moment. But there are still some weeks ahead of us.

    I am voting LD in the locals and probably Change UK in the European elections if they happen. My vote for Change UK is partly driven by Brexit, partly because I look favourably on the MPs who left their party to start this venture. I cannot vote Tory (Brexit) or Labour (Corbyn) at this time for varying reasons and I would never vote UKIP or Brexit party! Paradoxically, If Tony Blair was leader of the Labour party at the moment or someone with equivalent policies I would not just vote for Labour but go out and help them! I am a former Tory voter and member and am disgusted at Brexit, it is the biggest own goal in my lifetime as a country.
    I quite like the Change UK concept. They have yet to implement it very well though.
    Change UK have a concept?
    Essentally it is: One Nation Tories opposed to Brexit.

    Something in the Mainstream of Conservative opinion until 2016.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    I don't know how typical I am, but I am simply going to vote in the way that sends the strongest pro-EU signal. If Labour firms up its commitment to another vote - I'll probably plump for them. If not and the Lib Dems do well in the locals then they might well be the best slot for the ballot slip. If Labour remain ambiguous and the Lib Dems don't look like they are motoring then it's either Green or Change UK. The lacklustre launch is putting me off the last of those - and not contesting the locals undermines their appeal to me at the moment. But there are still some weeks ahead of us.

    I am voting LD in the locals and probably Change UK in the European elections if they happen. My vote for Change UK is partly driven by Brexit, partly because I look favourably on the MPs who left their party to start this venture. I cannot vote Tory (Brexit) or Labour (Corbyn) at this time for varying reasons and I would never vote UKIP or Brexit party! Paradoxically, If Tony Blair was leader of the Labour party at the moment or someone with equivalent policies I would not just vote for Labour but go out and help them! I am a former Tory voter and member and am disgusted at Brexit, it is the biggest own goal in my lifetime as a country.
    I quite like the Change UK concept. They have yet to implement it very well though.
    Change UK have a concept?
    Essentally it is: One Nation Tories opposed to Brexit.

    Something in the Mainstream of Conservative opinion until 2016.
    Ah, so they finally snapped after being told to join the tories so many times? :p
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,049
    DavidL said:

    I tend to agree with those downthread who make the point that creative ambiguity will continue to be Labour's policy. Brexit is the Tories' toy, most Labour supporters just don't care that much and think that there are more important things to worry about. They are probably right although the die in the ditch efforts of the remainers have made something of a constitutional crisis out of this relatively modest event.

    Whilst they might therefore lose some of the fanatics at the margins I suspect that the majority of Labour supporters will either vote to give the Tories a good kicking or not bother. I think the prospects for a major split in Labour on this are overstated in the thread header.

    I think Labour Leavers are less bothered than Labour Remainers. The risk is on that side.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Cyclefree said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    Scott_P said:
    Er, well Trumpton really is not the 'leader of the free world'. I can think of few people less qualified to that claim. He can barely lead his own country.
    Corbyn is willing to meet with President Assad, who has torn up any number of international treaties, especially those relating to the use of chemical weapons and war crimes, but not with Trump. Whatever the latter’s failings - and I really don’t see the need for a state visit this year - it shows odd judgment by Corbyn.

    He will have to boycott a lot of other visits by other leaders if misogyny and racism and non-compliance with treaties are the criteria by which they are to be judged. None of the people he has chosen to meet would pass muster according to those criteria.

    One wonders what level of hypocrisy will prove too much for Corbyn supporters.
    Oh my god, I am so sick of this type of argument. The "if you do one good thing but don't have a consistent rule for when exactly you do that good thing, you're a hypocrite" argument.

    You're a vegetarian? Why not a vegan, hypocrite?!
    You're boycotting a company whose practices you don't agree with? Why aren't you meticulously researching every single company you buy from in case they've done something worse, hypocrite?!
    You're donating money to a cancer charity? Why not a heart charity too, hypocrite?!
    You're refusing to meet with an abhorrent dickhead? Why not all abhorrent dickheads, hypocrite?!

    Has anyone in the history of the world ever used this kind of argument in good faith?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,049
    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    I don't know how typical I am, but I am simply going to vote in the way that sends the strongest pro-EU signal. If Labour firms up its commitment to another vote - I'll probably plump for them. If not and the Lib Dems do well in the locals then they might well be the best slot for the ballot slip. If Labour remain ambiguous and the Lib Dems don't look like they are motoring then it's either Green or Change UK. The lacklustre launch is putting me off the last of those - and not contesting the locals undermines their appeal to me at the moment. But there are still some weeks ahead of us.

    I am voting LD in the locals and probably Change UK in the European elections if they happen. My vote for Change UK is partly driven by Brexit, partly because I look favourably on the MPs who left their party to start this venture. I cannot vote Tory (Brexit) or Labour (Corbyn) at this time for varying reasons and I would never vote UKIP or Brexit party! Paradoxically, If Tony Blair was leader of the Labour party at the moment or someone with equivalent policies I would not just vote for Labour but go out and help them! I am a former Tory voter and member and am disgusted at Brexit, it is the biggest own goal in my lifetime as a country.
    I quite like the Change UK concept. They have yet to implement it very well though.
    Change UK have a concept?
    Essentally it is: One Nation Tories opposed to Brexit.

    Something in the Mainstream of Conservative opinion until 2016.
    Ah, so they finally snapped after being told to join the tories so many times? :p
    While the Labour MPs were some of the early movers it is notable that more recent defectors are Pro European Tory MEPs, Stephen Dorrell etc. That is their niche.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Lmao ! So Labours EU election leaflet now undergoing a hasty re-write .

    Corbyn and Labour are screwed if they don’t support a second vote . It’s a low risk strategy anyway as it’s very unlikely it would get through the HOC , any irritation by the ever diminishing band of Labour Leavers would soon be forgotten when a second vote doesn’t happen.

    So why Corbyn is making such a drama over this is mistifying .
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited April 2019
    If he wants to ever become PM nothing short of

    Ishmael_Z said:

    "Jeremy Corbyn boycotts Trump state dinner"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48070983

    He'd probably prefer to be dining with terrorists or anti-Semites ...

    Jeremy Corbyn is not an antisemite. Peter Oborne doesn't think he is: https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/tom-bower-book-dangerous-hero-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leader-truth.

    Stop violating the comments policy please.
    I didn't know there was a comments policy, nor that you were in charge of it.

    Corbyn is antisemitic to his fingertips, and the appeal to authority is generally recognised as a fallacy.
    Corbyn is not antisemitic. Antisemites don't attend passover ceremonies with Jews.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/03/jeremy-corbyn-passover-jewdas-good-news

    A very nice letter. I went to a funeral the other day and I was reminded of all the things about jewishness that I like if you take out the extreme religionists-who see themselves as 16th century Russians-and Israel which is more divisive than Brexit. There's a certain warmth and humour you'd go a long way to find anywhere else and it seems to me that Jewdas comes as close as anything to understanding that essence.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,952
    EDIT: UKIP on 4%, it seems.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,232
    Foxy said:
    Wow. Seems that Farage has done in a week what the Tories never succeeded doing in years: wipe UKIP from the political map.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Wow. Seems that Farage has done in a week what the Tories never succeeded doing in years: wipe UKIP from the political map.

    The Tories tried to do it by being more UKIPPY.

    Nobody is more UKIPPY than Nigel Fucking Farage.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,952

    Foxy said:
    Wow. Seems that Farage has done in a week what the Tories never succeeded doing in years: wipe UKIP from the political map.
    They are still polling better than Up-Chuk.....
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,392
    Scott_P said:
    Crossover!
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Scott_P said:
    Getting dibbed in by a journalist is pretty bad and doesn't reflect well on the scribbler involved. But I have an unrelated question. What does Roger Scruton know about housing?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,741

    Foxy said:
    Wow. Seems that Farage has done in a week what the Tories never succeeded doing in years: wipe UKIP from the political map.
    Farage has also undermined the duopoly. This is a pretty poor poll for Labour and a disastrous one for the Conservatives who must be dreading the polls next Thursday though I suspect a combination of a divided opposition vote and the absence of meaningful opposition in many areas may prevent a disaster becoming a catastrophe.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Cyclefree said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    Scott_P said:
    Er, well Trumpton really is not the 'leader of the free world'. I can think of few people less qualified to that claim. He can barely lead his own country.
    Corbyn is willing to meet with President Assad, who has torn up any number of international treaties, especially those relating to the use of chemical weapons and war crimes, but not with Trump. Whatever the latter’s failings - and I really don’t see the need for a state visit this year - it shows odd judgment by Corbyn.

    He will have to boycott a lot of other visits by other leaders if misogyny and racism and non-compliance with treaties are the criteria by which they are to be judged. None of the people he has chosen to meet would pass muster according to those criteria.

    One wonders what level of hypocrisy will prove too much for Corbyn supporters.
    Oh my god, I am so sick of this type of argument. The "if you do one good thing but don't have a consistent rule for when exactly you do that good thing, you're a hypocrite" argument.

    You're a vegetarian? Why not a vegan, hypocrite?!
    You're boycotting a company whose practices you don't agree with? Why aren't you meticulously researching every single company you buy from in case they've done something worse, hypocrite?!
    You're donating money to a cancer charity? Why not a heart charity too, hypocrite?!
    You're refusing to meet with an abhorrent dickhead? Why not all abhorrent dickheads, hypocrite?!

    Has anyone in the history of the world ever used this kind of argument in good faith?
    It is Corbyn and his supporters who parade his principles and claim that they make him a different sort of politician. So one is perfectly entitled to call him out when he does not act according to the principles so loudly proclaimed. Were he and his supporters less sanctimonious about his supposed virtue, then the criticism could not be made.

  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    edited April 2019
    At least Corbyn has done one good thing this week by turning down an invitation to dine with the orange lunatic .

    Trump is a cancer on the planet and has enabled scum like Bolsonaro to get elected . He’s also propping up the odious war criminal Netanyahu .
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    G

    I don't know how typical I am, but I am simply going to vote in the way that sends the strongest pro-EU signal. If Labour firms up its commitment to another vote - I'll probably plump for them. If not and the Lib Dems do well in the locals then they might well be the best slot for the ballot slip. If Labour remain ambiguous and the Lib Dems don't look like they are motoring then it's either Green or Change UK. The lacklustre launch is putting me off the last of those - and not contesting the locals undermines their appeal to me at the moment. But there are still some weeks ahead of us.

    I am voting LD in the locals and probably Change UK in the European elections if they happen. My vote for Change UK is partly driven by Brexit, partly because I look favourably on the MPs who left their party to start this venture. I cannot vote Tory (Brexit) or Labour (Corbyn) at this time for varying reasons and I would never vote UKIP or Brexit party! Paradoxically, If Tony Blair was leader of the Labour party at the moment or someone with equivalent policies I would not just vote for Labour but go out and help them! I am a former Tory voter and member and am disgusted at Brexit, it is the biggest own goal in my lifetime as a country.
    Given the D’Hondt formula and the way the polls appear to be shaping up, I expect LibDem would be a better Remain vote than CUK, in the Euros.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,230
    I'm on a train again. I am bored. Let's have a crack at the Jason thingy.

    There are 5 possible outcomes

    1: Child a is a boy called Jason and child b is a girl
    2: Child a is a girl and child b is a boy called Jason
    3: Child a is a boy called Jason and child b is a boy not called Jason
    4: Child a is a boy called Jason and child b is a boy called Jason
    5: Child a is a boy not called Jason and child b is a boy called Jason

    Let's pretend the probability that a boy is called Jason is 0.1 because I'm on a train and I'm buggered if I'm looking it up. So the probs are:

    1: 0.5*0.1*0.5 = 0.0250
    2: 0.5*0.5*0.1 = 0.0250
    3: 0.5*0.1*0.5*0.9 = 0.0225
    4: 0.5*0.1*0.5*0.1 = 0.0025
    5: 0.5*0.9*0.5*0.1 = 0.0225

    Total = 0.0975

    So the probability of two boys = (p3 + p4 + p5)/(p1 + p2 + p3 + p4 + p5)
    = (0.0225 + 0.0025 + 0.0225)/0.0975
    = 0.04525/0.0975
    = 46.4%

    Amirite, amirite, amirite? Huh, huh?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    Scott_P said:
    Ruth Davidson will return from maternity leave to a completely different political landscape.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Scott_P said:
    Ruth Davidson will return from maternity leave to a completely different political landscape.
    Down 2? Yes, utterly changed. :D
  • Harris_TweedHarris_Tweed Posts: 1,300



    It's too late for Labour to win back the votes of hardcore remainers in this election,

    I don't like to say that something's rubbish but that is of the unadulterated type.

    A week is a long time in politics. A day is a long time in Brexit politics. A month is an eternity.

    One clear decisive move by the NEC on Tuesday to back a People's Vote and there will be a flood of remainers, like me, for Labour.
    OK.. I grant you that, especially when Corbyn warmly embraces it and campaigns vigorously on the point ;)

    I should have said “given the likely outcomes which could be achieved short term with Corbyn as leader”. Given the way he’s treated the conference vote thus far, I see a vanishingly small chance of Labour’s position looking anything other than vague. The NEC will either fudge, or he’ll ignore them.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    nico67 said:

    At least Corbyn has done one good thing this week by turning down an invitation to dine with the orange lunatic .

    Trump is a cancer on the planet and has enabled scum like Bolsonaro to get elected . He’s also propping up the odious war criminal Netanyahu .

    The one good thing he has done is remind us that the benefit of the doubt he was prepared to extend to Putin, who sought to kill and succeeded in one case, British citizens on British soil, is not to be extended to the President of the USA.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Cyclefree said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    Scott_P said:
    Er, well Trumpton really is not the 'leader of the free world'. I can think of few people less qualified to that claim. He can barely lead his own country.
    Corbyn is willing to meet with President Assad, who has torn up any number of international treaties, especially those relating to the use of chemical weapons and war crimes, but not with Trump. Whatever the latter’s failings - and I really don’t see the need for a state visit this year - it shows odd judgment by Corbyn.

    He will have to boycott a lot of other visits by other leaders if misogyny and racism and non-compliance with treaties are the criteria by which they are to be judged. None of the people he has chosen to meet would pass muster according to those criteria.

    One wonders what level of hypocrisy will prove too much for Corbyn supporters.
    Oh my god, I am so sick of this type of argument. The "if you do one good thing but don't have a consistent rule for when exactly you do that good thing, you're a hypocrite" argument.

    You're a vegetarian? Why not a vegan, hypocrite?!
    You're boycotting a company whose practices you don't agree with? Why aren't you meticulously researching every single company you buy from in case they've done something worse, hypocrite?!
    You're donating money to a cancer charity? Why not a heart charity too, hypocrite?!
    You're refusing to meet with an abhorrent dickhead? Why not all abhorrent dickheads, hypocrite?!

    Has anyone in the history of the world ever used this kind of argument in good faith?
    I'd have thought consistency was a desirable trait in a wannabe PM.

    And further, note the inequalities in Corbyn's situation. Prior to 2015 he met the murderers and antisemites he chose to meet in a personal capacity and because he wanted to. A state banquet does not bring people together for their personal beliefs and characteristics. Honouring Trump is honouring the USA, a country with which, much as I loathe any talk about the special relationship, we have a special relationship. It's the flouncy JCR politics of the thing which is so embarrassing Corbyn and Cable ans Bercow are making us look like dicks on the international stage - presumably because they don't think brexit is doing a good enough job of that.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    Scott_P said:

    Wow. Seems that Farage has done in a week what the Tories never succeeded doing in years: wipe UKIP from the political map.

    The Tories tried to do it by being more UKIPPY.

    Nobody is more UKIPPY than Nigel Fucking Farage.
    The Tories got their highest vote share for 25 years by being UKIPPY - unfortunately for them the opposition coalesced around Corbyn in England and Wales thanks to the dementia tax and police cuts.

    Then they failed to deliver Brexit.

    And now we have Ann Widdecombe and Farage out foxtrotting them - Strictly Brexit style.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    I don't understand why someone would spend £5000 on standing as an Independent candidate for the European elections and not create a simple website to explain who they are. Baffling.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Ruth Davidson will return from maternity leave to a completely different political landscape.
    Down 2? Yes, utterly changed. :D
    With the Brexit Party breathing down the Tories' necks in England it puts the SCons in a difficult position.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,741
    Nearly evening all :)

    Glad to have reached the end of my working week albeit reduced by 20%.

    I find myself paradoxically on the same side as Jeremy Corbyn - opposed to a second vote in a Party that largely wants one.

    The problem remains the Commons has neither a majority for Leaving via the WA or without a WA and nor does it have a majority foe Remaining via either a revocation of A50 or a second vote. All four options have been tried and all four have come up short.

    The only card May has is to somehow hope the EU will budge on the backstop out of sheer frustration - there is a majority for something, she can argue to the EU and it can all be ended and life can continue if only the backstop is taken out. She might be expecting the EU to budge - I wouldn't count on it.

    That leaves a GE as a way of changing the Parliamentary arithmetic. Farage and the Brexit Party can get 15% but if it's evenly distributed it's a whole lot of nothing. He may have some proxies on the Conservative benches but while the current numbers place Corbyn insecurely in No.10 they don't really change anything. Would the EU renegotiate the WA with a different UK Government?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,706
    edited April 2019

    Scott_P said:
    Ruth Davidson will return from maternity leave to a completely different political landscape.
    Not really, little change on those figures and the same poll has a big lead for No to independence
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,230



    Scott_P said:
    Getting dibbed in by a journalist is pretty bad and doesn't reflect well on the scribbler involved. But I have an unrelated question. What does Roger Scruton know about housing?
    Don't ask awkward questions! Scruton is a posh person who knows people! That's all you need to know! That's how it works in this country! What are you, a communist?!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,049
    IanB2 said:

    G

    I don't know how typical I am, but I am simply going to vote in the way that sends the strongest pro-EU signal. If Labour firms up its commitment to another vote - I'll probably plump for them. If not and the Lib Dems do well in the locals then they might well be the best slot for the ballot slip. If Labour remain ambiguous and the Lib Dems don't look like they are motoring then it's either Green or Change UK. The lacklustre launch is putting me off the last of those - and not contesting the locals undermines their appeal to me at the moment. But there are still some weeks ahead of us.

    I am voting LD in the locals and probably Change UK in the European elections if they happen. My vote for Change UK is partly driven by Brexit, partly because I look favourably on the MPs who left their party to start this venture. I cannot vote Tory (Brexit) or Labour (Corbyn) at this time for varying reasons and I would never vote UKIP or Brexit party! Paradoxically, If Tony Blair was leader of the Labour party at the moment or someone with equivalent policies I would not just vote for Labour but go out and help them! I am a former Tory voter and member and am disgusted at Brexit, it is the biggest own goal in my lifetime as a country.
    Given the D’Hondt formula and the way the polls appear to be shaping up, I expect LibDem would be a better Remain vote than CUK, in the Euros.
    I think that depends on Region. In London, SE and possibly SW England CHUK have a reasonable chance.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    Scott_P said:
    Er, well Trumpton really is not the 'leader of the free world'. I can think of few people less qualified to that claim. He can barely lead his own country.
    Corbyn is willing to meet with President Assad, who has torn up any number of international treaties, especially those relating to the use of chemical weapons and war crimes, but not with Trump. Whatever the latter’s failings - and I really don’t see the need for a state visit this year - it shows odd judgment by Corbyn.

    He will have to boycott a lot of other visits by other leaders if misogyny and racism and non-compliance with treaties are the criteria by which they are to be judged. None of the people he has chosen to meet would pass muster according to those criteria.

    One wonders what level of hypocrisy will prove too much for Corbyn supporters.
    Oh my god, I am so sick of this type of argument. The "if you do one good thing but don't have a consistent rule for when exactly you do that good thing, you're a hypocrite" argument.

    You're a vegetarian? Why not a vegan, hypocrite?!
    You're boycotting a company whose practices you don't agree with? Why aren't you meticulously researching every single company you buy from in case they've done something worse, hypocrite?!
    You're donating money to a cancer charity? Why not a heart charity too, hypocrite?!
    You're refusing to meet with an abhorrent dickhead? Why not all abhorrent dickheads, hypocrite?!

    Has anyone in the history of the world ever used this kind of argument in good faith?
    It is Corbyn and his supporters who parade his principles and claim that they make him a different sort of politician. So one is perfectly entitled to call him out when he does not act according to the principles so loudly proclaimed. Were he and his supporters less sanctimonious about his supposed virtue, then the criticism could not be made.

    If you want to call him out for meeting Assad or whoever, go for it. That's a valid thing to argue, just like I'm happy to hear arguments that you should be a vegan or should give money to heart charities. But the form of argument I'm complaining about, whataboutery, allows you to skip having to actually make that argument, and instead just make a spurious accusation of hypocrisy. It's lazy.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    stodge said:

    Nearly evening all :)

    Glad to have reached the end of my working week albeit reduced by 20%.

    I find myself paradoxically on the same side as Jeremy Corbyn - opposed to a second vote in a Party that largely wants one.

    The problem remains the Commons has neither a majority for Leaving via the WA or without a WA and nor does it have a majority foe Remaining via either a revocation of A50 or a second vote. All four options have been tried and all four have come up short.

    The only card May has is to somehow hope the EU will budge on the backstop out of sheer frustration - there is a majority for something, she can argue to the EU and it can all be ended and life can continue if only the backstop is taken out. She might be expecting the EU to budge - I wouldn't count on it.

    That leaves a GE as a way of changing the Parliamentary arithmetic. Farage and the Brexit Party can get 15% but if it's evenly distributed it's a whole lot of nothing. He may have some proxies on the Conservative benches but while the current numbers place Corbyn insecurely in No.10 they don't really change anything. Would the EU renegotiate the WA with a different UK Government?

    How would it be different? Given current polling figures I suspect it would be even more hung and polarised.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,706
    The problem Labour faces is most Labour voters voted Remain but most Labour seats and Tory marginals voted Leave
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Hmm, I'm not so sure. Weasel words have sufficed so far. Admittedly there's some drifting away from Labour as a result of this, but it's manageable and I don't see why it can't remain so - after all, Labour MEPs will not be the ones who have to choose to call a referendum or not, so why shouldn't weasel words still suffice?

    The Labour vote share has suffered in polls since Brexit day passed. Why is that?

    It could be Labour Leavers annoyed that Brexit hasn't happened.

    It could be Labour Remainers frustrated that Labour won't fall in line with the petition-signing crowd.

    I tend to feel that the polarisation over Brexit has accelerated recently with the passing of Brexit day. While fence-sitting previously served Labour well, as they allowed everyone to believe Labour was on their side, now I think that strategy is failing, as everyone doubts whether Labour agrees with them.

    The point of decision has been reached for Labour.
    I don't think the point of decision has been reached. What happens if they don't make a decision now?

    Conversely, if they do decide to go for a referendum for the purposes of the Euro elections, then it would be impossible for them not to vote for one in the Commons, but the leadership cabal seems very determined not to do so (at least for now).

    Weasel words it will be, I'm sure.
    It's too late for Labour to win back the votes of hardcore remainers in this election,
    I don't like to say that something's rubbish but that is of the unadulterated type.

    A week is a long time in politics. A day is a long time in Brexit politics. A month is an eternity.

    One clear decisive move by the NEC on Tuesday to back a People's Vote and there will be a flood of remainers, like me, for Labour.
    And gift Farage another seat or two in the Northern regions.
This discussion has been closed.